10 ms·

What exactly are the powers and material structures that contribute to the perceived racism in our society? From my limited understanding of this position, it

What exactly are the powers and material structures that contribute to the perceived racism in our society? From my limited understanding of this position, it sounds like the goal is a dismantling of police and courts which form the backbone of a civil rule of law society.

zasz 6y ago
Systematic exclusion of black people from social programs, like the GI Bill and Social Security, and redlining, which prevented black Americans from building up wealth through homeownership the way white Americans were. "The Color of Law" is a good book on redlining. To expand on the bit about Social Security, farmworkers were excluded, since farmworkers tend to be not white. It was a nice sneaky way to be racist without coming out and doing so explicitly.
- twybriny 6y ago
  One of the things that confuses me quite a bit is the focus on laws that expired or have been abrogated 50-60-70-150 years ago and make it as if everything wrong with contemporary American society is caused directly by such laws and nothing else. * GI Bill: adopted in 1944, expired in 1956. * Social Security: adopted in 1935, unclear what the impacts were at the time. Unclear what the impacts are today. * Redlining: created in 1934, illegal since 1977. As an immigrant that landed in US post 2000 with $1000 to my name and a tenuous F1 situation, all this sounds like ancient history. Much more stringent appear, in no particular order and not pretending to be exhaustive: * the whole F1/H1B situation, which depresses the domestic labor market in technical jobs, especially software, but also research at large * global competition, especially with China * the over financialization of the economy * the profits accumulating at the very top since the 2008 Great Recession * the explosion of real estate market in big cities, way above what we pretend the inflation rate is * manufacturing decline * offshoring of entire industries to East Asia * right now, the covid19 lockdowns which are destroying the service economy, which was supposed to be the future of jobs * the decimation of small business America due to same covid19 lockdowns. * specifically for the black community, the lack of academic achievement * the rise of the gig economy and Amazon warehouse jobs * the opioid, homelessness and suicide crisis * the obesity crisis, and the related food deserts Again, not a young black guy or gal. But if I'd were, there'd be 10 high priority items on my worry list before I'd get to the Civil Rights Era. As a nation we seem to have abandoned the middle and working class of all colors. The public discourse is obsessed with Instagram influencers and race histories half a century old if not older, sometimes much older.
  - bsanr2 6y ago
    >As an immigrant that landed in US post 2000 with $1000 to my name and a tenuous F1 situation, all this sounds like ancient history. Well, it's not. In living memory: >The wealth of black Americans was halved by the 2008 financial crisis, in part because of predatory lending practices which specifically targeted them by race and misrepresented their creditworthiness https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/01/24/the-american-dream-shatters-in-prince-georges-county/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/01/24/t... >A million black farming families essentially had their wealth-producing land stolen from them: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/this-land-was-our-land/594742/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/this-la... https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/losing-ground/ https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/losing-ground/ >Multiple black activists pushing for more advantageous policy have been imprisoned and assassinated, with allegedly some incidents as recent as the last few years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Martin_Luther_King_Jr https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Martin_Luth.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/puzzling-number-men-tied-ferguson-protests-have-died-n984261 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/puzzling-number-men-tie... >Black students have become subject to levels of segregation - and associated disparities in educational quality - at levels rivalling those of pre-Brown v Board America https://www.propublica.org/article/segregation-now-full-text https://www.propublica.org/article/segregation-now-full-text https://projects.propublica.org/miseducation https://projects.propublica.org/miseducation >Because many black workers were exempt from the initial impementation of Social Security and the GI Bill, their children (Silent Gen and Baby Boomers, currently in the process of passing on their inheritances) and grandchildren (Gen X and Millennials) are suffering the consequences in lost wealth-building opportunities >Countless black Americans have suffered from poor healthcare based on apathy and stereotypes https://features.propublica.org/diabetes-amputations/black-american-amputation-epidemic/ https://features.propublica.org/diabetes-amputations/black-a... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/20/black-americans-death-rate-covid-19-coronavirus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/20/black-american... https://www.heart.org/en/news/2019/02/20/why-are-black-women-at-such-high-risk-of-dying-from-pregnancy-complications https://www.heart.org/en/news/2019/02/20/why-are-black-women... >Black Americans have watched a completely different and profoundly more compassionate response to the white people affected by the opioid epidemic than they experienced in the crack/cocaine epidemic https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/08/crack-heroin-and-race/401015/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/08/crack-h... https://thewitnessbcc.com/crack-epidemic-opioid-crisis-race-america/ https://thewitnessbcc.com/crack-epidemic-opioid-crisis-race-... >Marijuana, long a a drug whose sale and use was the pretext for the overpolicing of black communities, and which provided off-the-record income for many marginalized from the mainstream economy, was legalized in several states, under schemes that made sure that the overwhelming majority of those who profited were white. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/02/22/marijuana-legalization-exposes-cannabis-industry-racial-injustice-incarceration-minorities-column/2836449002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/02/22/marijuana-... https://qz.com/1194143/even-after-legalization-black-americans-are-arrested-much-more-often-for-marijuana-offenses/ https://qz.com/1194143/even-after-legalization-black-america... https://psmag.com/economics/the-green-rush-is-too-white-hood-incubator-race-weed https://psmag.com/economics/the-green-rush-is-too-white-hood... >Historical atrocities were buried until after those afflicted were unable to see justice in their lifetimes https://tulsa.okstate.edu/news/shedding-light-local-history-teaching-about-tulsa-race-massacre https://tulsa.okstate.edu/news/shedding-light-local-history-... And, of course, bare-naked discrimination exists across aspects of American life, including employment, compensation, educational opportunity, freedom of movement, criminal justice, real estate, and on and on and on. When these and many more injustices were not directly impactful, they served as poignant examples of the extreme apathy, if not antipathy, American society has had for black Americans. On top of it all, black Americans still live under the specter of police departments nationwide, which have been allegedly infiltrated by white supremacist organizations, and which assuredly indoctrinate officers with racist training and policy, and root out anti-racist individuals. I'll leave you with https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/05/29/no-college-isnt-the-answer-reparations-are/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/05/29/... a response to Ta-Nehisi Coates' seminal work, The Case For Reparations (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-cas...), which reopened the intellectual debate on racial justice with a focus on the subject above: racial injustice affecting living black Americans, however rooted it may be in the events of 50-60-70-150 years ago.
- 3nob9sh3nsOwn 6y ago
  Adolph Reed has written on the Social Security exclusions that you're referencing, and the issue is not so clear cut: [1]. The initial iteration of Social Security excluded many types of temporary and informal labor. Although black workers were disproportionately impacted by these exclusions, the large majority (about 75%) of people who were excluded were white. One possible reason why these exclusions were in place is that getting accurate payroll figures for informal jobs is difficult. In any case, these exclusions were lifted between 1950 and 1955. Keep in mind that Social Security was not the only New Deal program, and things like the Public Works Administration disproportionately benefited African Americans. The New Deal was extremely popular among African Americans, and is one of the major reasons why most African Americans switched over to voting for the Democratic Party. That's what makes the recent narrative that the New Deal was racist (and to blame for today's disparities) so strange. 1. https://newrepublic.com/article/155704/new-deal-wasnt-intrinsically-racist https://newrepublic.com/article/155704/new-deal-wasnt-intrin...
nouveaux 6y ago
If a publicly traded company is not doing well, the CEO gets canned and no one bats an eye. If one department is not doing well, it's very common to just fire a bunch of people or get rid of the department completely. The idea of "dismantling of police" does not mean we do not offer protection. It just means that the current organization "police" is not providing the services it's customers want. Years of "tweaking" the police orgs have failed to provide results. It's time to create a new way to protect citizens.
- 1121redblackgo 6y ago
  New way same as the old way presumably. This is a baby with the bathwater situation. It can be fixed no need to scrap it.
  - geggam 6y ago
    Not sure I agree. The concept of meeting mental illness or crimes of poverty / lack of education with escalating violence is really uneducated at best. Violence being the language folks use after all else fails. Starting with violence means you don't really care about solving the problem and just want the incident to go away
  - nouveaux 6y ago
    I would agree with you that there would be the same if it's the same people running. This is the systematic part that needs to change. When companies fail, there is a new CEO, new board, new executives. Let's do the same with failed police departments. There is 0% chance that all police departments will all change in 2020. I'm happy to voice my support that some cities are willing to try new things. If it works great. If not, back to the drawing board.
  - fzeroracer 6y ago
    With what, exactly? You can pass more laws, but laws don't matter if the police don't obey them anyways. You can enforce things like bodycams, but then the police cover up the cams or conveniently turn them off. At what point will you be convinced that you need to start over? Because removing corruption is like removing an invasive species: you don't solve it by taking a half-assed attempt with trimming and call it a day.
triceratops 6y ago
> it sounds like the goal is a dismantling of police and courts which form the backbone of a civil rule of law society. It's not. The goal is to demand equal protections under the law for all, eliminate racial bias in policing, judging and sentencing, and make police themselves follow the law. Don't be misled by the "defund police" mantra. It's just a way to divert resources to community engagement programs and/or get out of contracts with police unions. It doesn't literally mean "shut down the police department and courts". > From my limited understanding of this position At least you're honest about it. I'd encourage you to educate yourself instead of just relying on soundbites and scare-mongering media headlines (not saying that's what you've been doing so far).
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago
  >It doesn't literally mean "shut down the police department and courts". This doublespeak, which reminds me of the whole "Kill All Men" issue, which itself was quickly followed by a rush to say "Noo you stupid man, we don't mean kill all men, just some men", makes my skin crawl. Let's take a quick look at the dictionary: Defund: verb prevent from continuing to receive funds. If you are failing to use the language correctly, correct yourself. Don't attempt to gaslight people and twist the meaning of established terms.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    If it helps, I think "kill all men" is reprehensible and illegal. "Defund police" even taken literally, is neither of those things, so you're drawing a false equivalence. If you eliminate funding for an existing police department, firing all of the employees, and divide all of its functions, including dealing with violent criminals, and performing investigations, up among other departments (both existing and new), isn't "defund" accurate? That's the most extreme position on the spectrum along which police reform plans lie. "Defund police" is a pithy catchphrase, an opening position for negotiations. I don't think the language is what needs "correcting". It's important to educate oneself on the issues instead of assuming the worst about anyone you disagree with.
    - 6y ago
bsanr2 6y ago
The backbone of the rule of law is its legitimacy in the eyes of the people. Police brutalizing journalists on camera in clear violation of the law (and presumably with no rectification in court to come) probably does more to dismantle that legitimacy than anything a protestor could do.

zasz 6y ago

Systematic exclusion of black people from social programs, like the GI Bill and Social Security, and redlining, which prevented black Americans from building up wealth through homeownership the way white Americans were. "The Color of Law" is a good book on redlining. To expand on the bit about Social Security, farmworkers were excluded, since farmworkers tend to be not white. It was a nice sneaky way to be racist without coming out and doing so explicitly.

twybriny 6y ago
One of the things that confuses me quite a bit is the focus on laws that expired or have been abrogated 50-60-70-150 years ago and make it as if everything wrong with contemporary American society is caused directly by such laws and nothing else. * GI Bill: adopted in 1944, expired in 1956. * Social Security: adopted in 1935, unclear what the impacts were at the time. Unclear what the impacts are today. * Redlining: created in 1934, illegal since 1977. As an immigrant that landed in US post 2000 with $1000 to my name and a tenuous F1 situation, all this sounds like ancient history. Much more stringent appear, in no particular order and not pretending to be exhaustive: * the whole F1/H1B situation, which depresses the domestic labor market in technical jobs, especially software, but also research at large * global competition, especially with China * the over financialization of the economy * the profits accumulating at the very top since the 2008 Great Recession * the explosion of real estate market in big cities, way above what we pretend the inflation rate is * manufacturing decline * offshoring of entire industries to East Asia * right now, the covid19 lockdowns which are destroying the service economy, which was supposed to be the future of jobs * the decimation of small business America due to same covid19 lockdowns. * specifically for the black community, the lack of academic achievement * the rise of the gig economy and Amazon warehouse jobs * the opioid, homelessness and suicide crisis * the obesity crisis, and the related food deserts Again, not a young black guy or gal. But if I'd were, there'd be 10 high priority items on my worry list before I'd get to the Civil Rights Era. As a nation we seem to have abandoned the middle and working class of all colors. The public discourse is obsessed with Instagram influencers and race histories half a century old if not older, sometimes much older.
- bsanr2 6y ago
  >As an immigrant that landed in US post 2000 with $1000 to my name and a tenuous F1 situation, all this sounds like ancient history. Well, it's not. In living memory: >The wealth of black Americans was halved by the 2008 financial crisis, in part because of predatory lending practices which specifically targeted them by race and misrepresented their creditworthiness https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/01/24/the-american-dream-shatters-in-prince-georges-county/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/01/24/t... >A million black farming families essentially had their wealth-producing land stolen from them: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/this-land-was-our-land/594742/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/this-la... https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/losing-ground/ https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/losing-ground/ >Multiple black activists pushing for more advantageous policy have been imprisoned and assassinated, with allegedly some incidents as recent as the last few years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Martin_Luther_King_Jr https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Martin_Luth.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/puzzling-number-men-tied-ferguson-protests-have-died-n984261 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/puzzling-number-men-tie... >Black students have become subject to levels of segregation - and associated disparities in educational quality - at levels rivalling those of pre-Brown v Board America https://www.propublica.org/article/segregation-now-full-text https://www.propublica.org/article/segregation-now-full-text https://projects.propublica.org/miseducation https://projects.propublica.org/miseducation >Because many black workers were exempt from the initial impementation of Social Security and the GI Bill, their children (Silent Gen and Baby Boomers, currently in the process of passing on their inheritances) and grandchildren (Gen X and Millennials) are suffering the consequences in lost wealth-building opportunities >Countless black Americans have suffered from poor healthcare based on apathy and stereotypes https://features.propublica.org/diabetes-amputations/black-american-amputation-epidemic/ https://features.propublica.org/diabetes-amputations/black-a... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/20/black-americans-death-rate-covid-19-coronavirus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/20/black-american... https://www.heart.org/en/news/2019/02/20/why-are-black-women-at-such-high-risk-of-dying-from-pregnancy-complications https://www.heart.org/en/news/2019/02/20/why-are-black-women... >Black Americans have watched a completely different and profoundly more compassionate response to the white people affected by the opioid epidemic than they experienced in the crack/cocaine epidemic https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/08/crack-heroin-and-race/401015/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/08/crack-h... https://thewitnessbcc.com/crack-epidemic-opioid-crisis-race-america/ https://thewitnessbcc.com/crack-epidemic-opioid-crisis-race-... >Marijuana, long a a drug whose sale and use was the pretext for the overpolicing of black communities, and which provided off-the-record income for many marginalized from the mainstream economy, was legalized in several states, under schemes that made sure that the overwhelming majority of those who profited were white. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/02/22/marijuana-legalization-exposes-cannabis-industry-racial-injustice-incarceration-minorities-column/2836449002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/02/22/marijuana-... https://qz.com/1194143/even-after-legalization-black-americans-are-arrested-much-more-often-for-marijuana-offenses/ https://qz.com/1194143/even-after-legalization-black-america... https://psmag.com/economics/the-green-rush-is-too-white-hood-incubator-race-weed https://psmag.com/economics/the-green-rush-is-too-white-hood... >Historical atrocities were buried until after those afflicted were unable to see justice in their lifetimes https://tulsa.okstate.edu/news/shedding-light-local-history-teaching-about-tulsa-race-massacre https://tulsa.okstate.edu/news/shedding-light-local-history-... And, of course, bare-naked discrimination exists across aspects of American life, including employment, compensation, educational opportunity, freedom of movement, criminal justice, real estate, and on and on and on. When these and many more injustices were not directly impactful, they served as poignant examples of the extreme apathy, if not antipathy, American society has had for black Americans. On top of it all, black Americans still live under the specter of police departments nationwide, which have been allegedly infiltrated by white supremacist organizations, and which assuredly indoctrinate officers with racist training and policy, and root out anti-racist individuals. I'll leave you with https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/05/29/no-college-isnt-the-answer-reparations-are/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/05/29/... a response to Ta-Nehisi Coates' seminal work, The Case For Reparations (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-cas...), which reopened the intellectual debate on racial justice with a focus on the subject above: racial injustice affecting living black Americans, however rooted it may be in the events of 50-60-70-150 years ago.
3nob9sh3nsOwn 6y ago
Adolph Reed has written on the Social Security exclusions that you're referencing, and the issue is not so clear cut: [1]. The initial iteration of Social Security excluded many types of temporary and informal labor. Although black workers were disproportionately impacted by these exclusions, the large majority (about 75%) of people who were excluded were white. One possible reason why these exclusions were in place is that getting accurate payroll figures for informal jobs is difficult. In any case, these exclusions were lifted between 1950 and 1955. Keep in mind that Social Security was not the only New Deal program, and things like the Public Works Administration disproportionately benefited African Americans. The New Deal was extremely popular among African Americans, and is one of the major reasons why most African Americans switched over to voting for the Democratic Party. That's what makes the recent narrative that the New Deal was racist (and to blame for today's disparities) so strange. 1. https://newrepublic.com/article/155704/new-deal-wasnt-intrinsically-racist https://newrepublic.com/article/155704/new-deal-wasnt-intrin...

nouveaux 6y ago

If a publicly traded company is not doing well, the CEO gets canned and no one bats an eye. If one department is not doing well, it's very common to just fire a bunch of people or get rid of the department completely. The idea of "dismantling of police" does not mean we do not offer protection. It just means that the current organization "police" is not providing the services it's customers want. Years of "tweaking" the police orgs have failed to provide results. It's time to create a new way to protect citizens.

1121redblackgo 6y ago
New way same as the old way presumably. This is a baby with the bathwater situation. It can be fixed no need to scrap it.
- geggam 6y ago
  Not sure I agree. The concept of meeting mental illness or crimes of poverty / lack of education with escalating violence is really uneducated at best. Violence being the language folks use after all else fails. Starting with violence means you don't really care about solving the problem and just want the incident to go away
- nouveaux 6y ago
  I would agree with you that there would be the same if it's the same people running. This is the systematic part that needs to change. When companies fail, there is a new CEO, new board, new executives. Let's do the same with failed police departments. There is 0% chance that all police departments will all change in 2020. I'm happy to voice my support that some cities are willing to try new things. If it works great. If not, back to the drawing board.
- fzeroracer 6y ago
  With what, exactly? You can pass more laws, but laws don't matter if the police don't obey them anyways. You can enforce things like bodycams, but then the police cover up the cams or conveniently turn them off. At what point will you be convinced that you need to start over? Because removing corruption is like removing an invasive species: you don't solve it by taking a half-assed attempt with trimming and call it a day.

triceratops 6y ago

> it sounds like the goal is a dismantling of police and courts which form the backbone of a civil rule of law society. It's not. The goal is to demand equal protections under the law for all, eliminate racial bias in policing, judging and sentencing, and make police themselves follow the law. Don't be misled by the "defund police" mantra. It's just a way to divert resources to community engagement programs and/or get out of contracts with police unions. It doesn't literally mean "shut down the police department and courts". > From my limited understanding of this position At least you're honest about it. I'd encourage you to educate yourself instead of just relying on soundbites and scare-mongering media headlines (not saying that's what you've been doing so far).

cmdshiftf4 6y ago
>It doesn't literally mean "shut down the police department and courts". This doublespeak, which reminds me of the whole "Kill All Men" issue, which itself was quickly followed by a rush to say "Noo you stupid man, we don't mean kill all men, just some men", makes my skin crawl. Let's take a quick look at the dictionary: Defund: verb prevent from continuing to receive funds. If you are failing to use the language correctly, correct yourself. Don't attempt to gaslight people and twist the meaning of established terms.
- triceratops 6y ago
  If it helps, I think "kill all men" is reprehensible and illegal. "Defund police" even taken literally, is neither of those things, so you're drawing a false equivalence. If you eliminate funding for an existing police department, firing all of the employees, and divide all of its functions, including dealing with violent criminals, and performing investigations, up among other departments (both existing and new), isn't "defund" accurate? That's the most extreme position on the spectrum along which police reform plans lie. "Defund police" is a pithy catchphrase, an opening position for negotiations. I don't think the language is what needs "correcting". It's important to educate oneself on the issues instead of assuming the worst about anyone you disagree with.
  - 6y ago

bsanr2 6y ago

The backbone of the rule of law is its legitimacy in the eyes of the people. Police brutalizing journalists on camera in clear violation of the law (and presumably with no rectification in court to come) probably does more to dismantle that legitimacy than anything a protestor could do.