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I remember at a previous job, a female engineer talking to other engineers when the Damore story broke. She said "I can't believe he said that women can't be go

• sandov 6y ago
  Sites like Bloomberg spread this misinformation [1]. The same site of the thread we're commenting on. Maybe we in HN could stop giving publicity to websites that spread fake news. [1] First paragraph of https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-05/harmeet-dhillon-wants-silicon-valley-to-be-safe-for-conservatives https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-05/harmeet-d...
• starchild_3001 6y ago
  The dude is talking about probabilities and distributions, while the stats-ignorant public is generalizing to every individual. It's impossible to have a scientific and open minded debate about the differences between genders. Even theorizing biologic differences exist makes you a sexist. Let alone bringing up this question in public. Edit: Yes, his memo is totally tone deaf. I thought his wording was very questionable. But the his core argument (regarding differences in biology leading to differences in distributions) is worth debating. Example: There's a noticeable distributional difference in 100m running times between genders (due to biology). That said any number of men or women are faster runners than me :) Population doesn't mean anything for the individual.
  • mirimir 6y ago
    > Even theorizing biologic differences exist makes you a sexist. Eggs vs sperm -- plumbing aside -- is a fundamental biologic difference. And bringing a pregnancy to term, and delivering without bleeding out, sort of requires a uterus. But of course, it's gotta stop there. Edit: If someone wants to explain away such differences, I'd love to see the argument.
    • mmmBacon 6y ago
      People focus on the “plumbing” but the hormones produced by the plumbing are the important things that give us different behavior. I found this article about trans men to be fascinating. The hormones made me more impatient. I had lots of female friends and one of the qualities they loved about me was that I was a great listener. After being on testosterone, they informed me that my listening skills weren’t what they used to be https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feat...
    • legolas2412 6y ago
      > But of course, it's gotta stop there. What about higher amount of testosterone making men have more muscles and better sprinters? There are biological differences that affect performance in various activities. How much in comparison to nurture, and in what activities, seems to be an open question
  • tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
    And it explicitly states that generalizing to individuals is wrong (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586-Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586-Googles-Ideo..., page 4).
• airnomad 6y ago
  You didn't have to bite your tongue - you could've told her she's wrong.
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  • KungFuJohnny 6y ago
    As the article shows, you can speak up and you can get fired for speaking up.
  • IIAOPSW 6y ago
    This is one of the few examples where the phrase "political correctness" could be used correctly. Speaking 'correct' facts is not the 'correct' move to maximize the probability of still having a job tomorrow.
  • smsm42 6y ago
    If he wanted to risk being treated as a radioactive dumpster all the rest of his time working at that company - sure, he could. Maybe it wouldn't happen - maybe she would turn out a wonderful individual who would thank him for correcting her and educating her about the truth. Or maybe not. Given the risks of "maybe not" - the smart money is on "bite your tongue".
    • claudeganon 6y ago
      As it is true for any number of conversations in the workplace? Try telling your boss they're not as smart or talented as they think they are and see how that goes. I'm not sure how "making broad generalizations about your coworkers based on their gender" differs from all the other stuff most people have to keep quiet about as they go about their work.
      • 6y ago
• waheoo 6y ago
  You should watch the portland state debate on youtube. https://youtu.be/VCrQ3EU8_PM https://youtu.be/VCrQ3EU8_PM Super disturbing to know this came out of Google. Like what the fuck is going on in sillicon valley? You guys lose the plot? Did anyone actually read that memo? Like actually read it, not just skim it for angry words like "women", and "man". Its a bit tone deaf but its a huuuuge stretch to call him alt right for anything he said (hes super left.) In any case I hope he made bank in that settlement.
• sayusasugi 6y ago
  People are complicated, anyone attempting to lump individuals into "us" vs "them" or whatever other groups you want is a fool.
  • DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
    I'm can't tell of your comment is intentionally ironic, but I think it violates its own rule.
• SlowRobotAhead 6y ago
  > I just had to bite my tongue If you like your job, it’s a good thing you did. Good for you, not good for general discourse. If Damore is now a “right-wing hero”... well you’re right, you would be a them, a “right-wing sympathizer” and in some ahem places that is one of the worst things you can be. Glad he settled, but would rather have seen him as a step the pop the bubble that SV is trying to hard to build.
• chii 6y ago
  > even making the distinction makes you one of "them" and politicizes the workplace. this is how stalin and any of the authoritarian regimes would've started their control. To make people fear reprisals. To make people fear debate by outright social pressure to conform. I think you did the wrong thing by passive default of agreeing and not rocking the boat.
  • BurningFrog 6y ago
    You need to read up on Stalin. He focused more on mass murder and less on social pressure.
    • smsm42 6y ago
      Kinda both. Somebody had to write those complaints to the NKVD and participate in those meetings demanding to put down the traitors like rabid dogs. And if you didn't participate enthusiastically enough, be sure the NKVD would hear about it the next day, from multiple sources (and also would hear about everyone who didn't write). It was a system where participation wasn't optional.
      • BurningFrog 6y ago
        I do plan to read a serious Stalin book. Currently reading the Mao book: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679746323/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679746323/
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• ergothus 6y ago
  > As someone who actually read what he wrote, I just had to bite my tongue. That's not what he said at all, As someone that also read it, those arent the words he used, but that is very much what he was saying. A facade of misrepresented psuedoscience doesnt change the intent, motivation, or reality.
  • look_lookatme 6y ago
    That's not what he said. He said on average women do not prefer the field, and optimizing to change that observable fact is a fool's errand. I don't have an opinion on whether he's right or wrong but I don't think he shouldn't be able to make that argument...
    • smitty1e 6y ago
      And the lady engineers should put out some great work in reply and refute him.
      • Nitramp 6y ago
        That's not good. Imagine how you'd feel. Imagine people would generally claim that someone who looks like you is a bad engineer (say, someone with your hair color). And then imagine that people would expect you to constantly disprove that assumption, just because of your hair color. You'd be on the edge all the time. You'd never feel at home in the field. And whenever you interact with someone who doesn't have past work experience with you, they'd still assume you're a bad engineer.
        • Udik 6y ago
          But don't you think that the fairer the selection (blind to things such as gender, race or politics) the more confidence you'd have that you deserve to be in the position you are? How does a woman engineer should feel, knowing she was given a boost in the selection process by some kind of affirmative action? Isn't that in itself a source of uncertainty?
• exogeny 6y ago
  This view to me is just as tone deaf at Damore's piece itself. Whether or not you agree or disagree, it clearly had an impact of making a very large and significant segment of female employees at Google feel as if they were biologically inferior or otherwise not suited to do their jobs. You can sit here and say "Oh, that's nuts, that's not what he said" - but you're also not hearing the same internalized misogyny and bias that a LOT of female engineers are, day after day, at every company they've ever been at. He should have known it had the potential to have that impact, so I have approximately zero sympathy in that regard; what his true intentions are/were is irrelevant. I would bet any number that the largest cohort of people who are baffled by the reaction to his memo are white men. I'm sure it's not even close.
  • FeepingCreature 6y ago
    I'd say the reporting about Damore had a larger impact than Damore ever did.
    • darkerside 6y ago
      Nah, this was likely already making the rounds at Google and causing massive disruption. People don't need media to get them all worked up, although it certainly helps.
  • Aunche 6y ago
    > it clearly had an impact of making a very large and significant segment of female employees at Google feel as if they were biologically inferior or otherwise not suited to do their jobs Blame that on the attention seekers and clickbait journalists. A lot of things quoted out of context cause people to be offended. If you misrepresent citing a study that says that women score higher than men in neuroticism in personality surveys, as “Damore thinks women are neurotic,” of course women will be offended.
  • 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
    How people misread it really shouldn't be the point, if we could establish that it's a misreading (a big if). Like if someone at google wrote about the harms of toxic masculinity, talking about the cultural pressures society puts on men, should it matter that a bunch of men will think it's calling men toxic and be pissed off?
• newacct583 6y ago
  So... this is typical of the way this argument goes. Many HN readers are essentially "fellow travellers" with Damore. And you agree with him, and with that whitepaper thing he wrote. But here's the thing: every time this comes up, this is framed, as you do, as a failure of "everyone else" (meaning left-leaning general folks, often women themselves) failing to understand the truth of what he wrote. But what you don't do is actually defend what he wrote. And that's because what he wrote was really kinda vile. Indeed he didn't say "Women can't be good engineers". He said: "Women at Google aren't good engineers", which is quite frankly no less offensive. Now, sure, sure, his point was that this was because Google's diversity policies were incorrectly boosting these candidates. But that doesn't change what he said. So... I don't see that the "female engineer" you were talking to really had it that wrong. You're focused on what to her was a minor fact, and while you seem to be oblivious as to why she might find the "correct" interpretation offensive too... ... you aren't. Because you know it's not really that defensible either and don't want to be held to account for Damore's opinions yourself. So you content yourself with what the rest of us view as nitpicking.
  • look_lookatme 6y ago
    "Women at Google aren't good engineers" You quote this, which isn't a quote. Feel free to draw out the passages of his memo where this is explicitly or implicitly stated.
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  • manigandham 6y ago
    What was actually said is that men and women tend to have different interests on average, and therefore choose different professions when given equal freedom and opportunity. More men choose to be mechanical engineering and more women choose biological sciences. It's strange for that to be so controversial. Not having an interest in a field does not mean you're not capable. Perhaps that's the nuance that's missing.
    • 6y ago
• magic5227 6y ago
  She's not wrong. He shared a manifesto about gender differences in the workplace. In it, he calls women neurotic. Whether people's read on the manifesto is reductive of his overall argument isn't the point. He showed a serious lack of judgement writing and posting that in his workplace. He should not have played the part of expert gender/psychology expert. A researcher he cites specifically disagrees with his takeaways. There are productive ways to have these kinds of conversations, he chose to go to the opposite wrong end of that spectrum. Women have enough BS to deal with in tech, the last thing they need is a tech bro mis-using uncertain psych research to justify telling them they should find more appropriate roles.
  • manigandham 6y ago
    Google has always had a very open culture with lots of political discussion and encouraged these kinds of internal debates. This was a memo written specifically for a private internal forum that was focused on that specific discussion. The widely shared version was leaked and edited, but never meant for a public audience. Saying that men and women tend to have different preferences doesn't make a statement about their capabilities, nor is it really that controversial. The pursuit of a 50/50 ratio is counter-productive to free and open choice. Encouragement and opportunity should be the goal, not a forced ratio outcome.
    • magic5227 6y ago
      The research the post cites strongly implies women would be better qualified for other roles. That suggestion was (and is) both inaccurate and inappropriate to send in a workplace.
      • reroute1 6y ago
        Less interested/"qualified" compared on average to males by virtue of their interests and biology not their intelligence. Ignoring this is like sticking your fingers in your ears to the argument How is the statement in a general population inaccurate? I agree it can make people uncomfortable but it looks pretty accurate to me
• wolco 6y ago
  If you care about her having a certain opinion it's good you bite your tongue. Very few can handle the truth when they feel something different inside. You don't win over people with facts, fact support internal believes or they get ignored, blocked or morphed.
• JSavageOne 6y ago
  U.S. corporate culture truly has become toxic when one can't even debate anything or exercise freedom of speech.
• paulcole 6y ago
  > That's not what he said at all Those aren’t the words he used, but it’s exactly what he was saying.