16 ms·

For people with an abusive partner, lockdown means captivity

221 points by jrwan 7y ago

brenden2 7y ago
Or if you just don't like your roommate, but can't afford to live on your own or move out.
- JonAtkinson 7y ago
  That is a pretty flippant comparison. I’m the trustee of a regional women’s shelter; we run a small building of 8 apartments which we offer to women and children as short-medium term refuges at no cost. The people who arrive with us are experiencing trauma past breaking point (often abuse is normalised and needs to be significantly escalated until someone is willing to take flight), with symptoms of PTSD, depression, and often significant physical injuries. Children absorb this abuse in a similar manner, without any means to process the trauma. Organisations like our face an extremely uncertain future; while the need for what we do remains, and probably increases, many women are unable to move or scared to due to the government advice on travel. This is against the backdrop of being unable to procure supplies; we provide our residents with everything from food to nappies, all donated or bought from cash donations. I appreciate that living with a difficult roommate is a testing circumstance. But domestic abuse is truly a different level of horror.
  - buzzkillington 7y ago
    When do you think there will be shelters for the victims of domestic abuse from women? I had a a friend bullied to suicide by their mother but there was just no support for someone who wasn't physically abused by a man in the 00s.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      It's been a slow change, but it's changing. https://www.npr.org/2017/07/15/537381161/more-domestic-violence-shelters-for-men-opening https://www.npr.org/2017/07/15/537381161/more-domestic-viole...
    - scott_s 7y ago
      There are. The nonprofit my girlfriend works for works with all victims of domestic abuse. I imagine most such organizations do the same.
    - JonAtkinson 7y ago
      There are. Awareness is growing and all organisations which are serious will have a plan in place and facilities available. Should someone present at almost any shelter now their case will be assessed on whether violence occurred rather than gender. My organisation is in the UK, so I can’t speak for elsewhere. I’m sorry to hear about your friend, and for your loss. DV is truly horrible in all circumstances, and the effects ripple through many people.
      - buzzkillington 7y ago
        >Should someone present at almost any shelter now their case will be assessed on whether violence occurred rather than gender. Domestic abuse does not begin and end with violence. My friend was never physically hurt, yet he was still tortured enough to kill himself.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        Verbal/emotional abuse is still a form of violence. https://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-defined/ https://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-defined/ > Domestic violence includes behaviors that physically harm, arouse fear, prevent a partner from doing what they wish or force them to behave in ways they do not want. It includes the use of physical and sexual violence, threats and intimidation, emotional abuse and economic deprivation.
    - xenihn 7y ago
      Did the person you're replying to edit their post? If not, you should consider that lesbian relationships can be abusive.
  - narag 7y ago
    But domestic abuse is truly a different level of horror. Trust me, there are very tough situations that you haven't seen or you wouldn't say that. Fortunately domestic abuse has some legal status. But falling with a mentally deranged person in a shared condo is dangerous and more usual than you think.
  - brenden2 7y ago
    What about people who aren't women or children? They don't deserve help? Have we collectively decided to just let them rot?
duxup 7y ago
I feel like this is a valid concern, but really when it comes to abusive relationships ... a lockdown isn't the problem / aggravating circumstance /etc. I worked with kids who came from abusive / were in abusive families. The volume of abused partners who willingly stayed with the abuser was astonishingly high. They would even follow an abuser from one town to the next, even with services and options to not do so available. That's not to blame them, and circumstances make things very hard (especially if you're poor, have kids, or both). But it is the simple reality that the abused partner's willingness to leave and stick to that decision was the real trigger for any positive change, and not the circumstances of their life. It is not an easy decision or easy thing to do, but there was just not getting around that it was the key too. Obviously you can't just throw that at someone being abused because recrimination is of zero help / won't make things better. Either way in a lockdown, or out of one, the victims are often just as "locked" in psychologically.
- scott_s 7y ago
  The lockdown is not the problem, but it a problem. A new and novel one, as the article explains. My girlfriend works at a non-profit which provides shelter and support to domestic violence survivors. She counsels people in all stages. Some of her clients are dealing with this exact problem.
- jasondclinton 7y ago
  This is the most HN comment I've seen in a week. You tried not to blame the victim and acknowledge poverty is the trap but then came off as doing that in the context of personal responsibility shaming. Poverty or the fear of poverty is the real decision maker here; the math is as unforgiving as orbital mechanics. And please don't reply, "But there are programs!" Governments and NGOs convince voters and donors that they are doing something by creating programs for domestic violence and then make those programs so difficult to enroll in that they spend half of their funding creating labrythine beurocracy. Anyone already at their mental capacity with abuse struggles even starting these processes.
  - duxup 7y ago
    I think you can recognize that when you see victims get out of abusive situations, it is the victim is the one who ultimately took the decisive action (abusers just generally don't stop doing that on their own...) as a fact, and still recognize how difficult it is, and you can even call for MORE / better programs (that's what I was working in ...), and there isn't any inherent blame or conflict there.
digitalsushi 7y ago
We might also take some delicate thoughts that the absence of a lockdown does not imply the absence of captivity. An abuser can leave for a workday, or weeks at a time, and still have a captive. But I very much understand the spirit here and now I am feeling sad thinking about all those people out there that are possibly suffering even more right now. I can hope that some of them find the strength to walk away after experiencing this, but I know fully well that this isn't how it works. It's crappy how I feel like I can change the world if I try, but I can't change the house down the street. And for all those other houses down the street that look happy, they could be hiding the biggest captives of all. What a heavy topic to unwind.
- eklavya 7y ago
  Don't be disheartened. Do your bit and don't give up hope, every small step counts. No one alone is strong enough to take on the weight of the world and all its miseries.
- nabnob 7y ago
  >It's crappy how I feel like I can change the world if I try, but I can't change the house down the street. That's because it's way easier to think about fixing the world in a theoretical way than it is to start making small realistic changes that gradually turn into something bigger. As someone fighting domestic abuse outside of the system, this work can get very messy but over time you develop your understanding of what works and what doesn't work. It is possible to make real progress and actually stop abusers.
Zenst 7y ago
I'm Stuck in a flat above heroin/crack abusers, they have dealers in all the time, abuse the victim card and keep getting away with it. Police, council.... all just victimhood them and dispite over years and years of having hard evidence, they just ignore it. Equally the partner of the women had a business, working and she got him hooked on the stuff, she's abusive, killing him and nobody over the years seems to care as she is for want of a better word - classic dark triad case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad I've suffered abuse, homophobic abuse and as I'm not gay, it has been ignored. Even malicious gossip about me being a peado, again all ignored by the powers that be and I've done all the right things, tried so many times and been ignored. Since lockdown they have guests all the time, dealers, really nasty people and yet, i'm still ignored. Housing association in question even gone out their way to protect them and she has driven so many people out of their homes due to her abuse and still is allowed to get away with it as she excels at playing the victim, lies and I could list endless examples, it just frustrates me how these people keep on being allowed to carry on. So yes, very mindful of abuse, sadly the system seems to excel at enabling them. Oh as for police, even had instances of them not only doing nothing, but informing the dealers who informed upon them. Like passing on statements to her so she can show the dealers she didn't inform upon them and with that, lets them back in to the detrement of those who stood up. So nobody dares do anything as they have lost faith in the police and all support. I'm now at stage that I need a good investigative reporter as I have recordings and other proofs as the police have failed me so many times that I've lost faith in them completly. As I have all support systems. I have aspergers and have serious PTSD due to years of this abuse and need help getting the truth out there. Sorry if this not best place to talk about this, but I've tried and tried all the right avenues and only to be failed. Also sorry that I can't bestow all the details as it is so painful and triggers my PTSD but I'll try.
- topbanana 7y ago
  You need to get the hell out of there. It can't be good for your mental health
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Tried, even have psychiatric report stating as much and yet those who are supposed to help have failed me. Tried everything and nothing. But it's not just me, I have some good neibours who are less able to defend themselves and even if I moved, somebod else would suffer, let alone my good neibours and if I move, they would get worse downstairs. Only way is to see justice done and then move, though believe me I've tried, been messed around, and I'd articulate the horrors and failings but only so much can empart at a time as it causes me great stress reliving it. I'm already a lost cause, I just need to make sure others don't suffer, that's the only thing that keeps me alive.
OrangeMango 7y ago
Where I am, the second paragraph of the executive order establishing the "lockdown" explicitly states that victims of domestic violence are exempt and are urged to leave for a safer location. It makes clear further in the order that services provided are considered essential and should remain open and that transportation is also essential and should remain available. The news media simply does a terrible job of communicating what exactly these "lockdowns" mean. People that had a daily respite because their spouse left for work, or (as the article mentions) the stress of the situation is causing alcoholism and relapses into violence are people that need help and that the system in place most likely doesn't have the capacity to handle. This is where additional resources need to be made available.
- empath75 7y ago
  My wife works with domestic violence victims. It's extraordinarily difficult to get victims of domestic violence to leave their abusers even in the best of times. There's also not a lot of shelters available for women to stay in for long periods of time.
  - OrangeMango 7y ago
    You are absolutely right. It's a very difficult problem to solve, and the current situation makes it far more challenging. But knowing that you are not legally required to stay has to be an improvement.
    - joveian 7y ago
      It is good to have that exception. Here in Portland, Oregon they are saying that the main issue is that finding long term housing, normally in short supply here, is now almost impossible.
- lmkg 7y ago
  Which do you think matters more to a person in an abusive situation? A. Paragraph two of some legal document somewhere B. "If you leave the house, I'll call the cops and tell them you're breaking quarantine, and then you'll go to jail and I'll be the only person who can get you out." I don't disagree with your last paragraph: There are other related issues and maybe some of them are worse. But how this actually plays out in an abusive situation is a fair bit removed from what the executive order says.
sanid 7y ago
It's known that abuse cases tend to spike around Christmas and new year as people tend to spend a lot of time home together with their abusive partners. That's during a rather merry time. With lockdowns in place and the stress people are dealing with currently not only will it get worse for current victims we will have more victims of abuse in the months coming. Governments should not only be concerned will the economic consequences this pandemic has caused but the social and mental health problems it is causing currently.
sdffdsfdsfsddsf 7y ago
Afaik the UK is protestant because hundreds of years ago, some king wanted to divorce his wife and catholic faith wouldn't have allowed him to. Just saying: the option for divorce has existed for a long time now. How can a woman describe to a journalist how abusive her partner is, and not split up or get a divorce? In most countries there is also some kind of social security, so women are not financially dependent on their partners anymore, either (not to mention the option to work themselves). So what are we to make of such articles? Internalize more hatred of men? Go round knocking on doors, asking women "excuse me, should I beat up your husband"? Maybe there are reasons that prevent women from leaving (and let's not forget many men are victims of domestic abuse, too). Then those reasons should be addressed. Those sob stories on "women have it so bad" don't do anybody any good. And also, personal responsibility is a theme here. You are responsible for choosing your partner, and also for splitting if the partner turns out to be abusive.
- mjmasn 7y ago
  I agree that personal responsibility is important but I don't think we can assume that someone who has been physically or emotionally abused is necessarily going to be making rational decisions. Even if they are, they may fear repercussions from the abuser, or the 'shame' of divorce etc. from family members who don't realise the full extent of the situation. Those reasons are somewhat difficult to address IMO.
  - sdffdsfdsfsddsf 7y ago
    So what conclusions should we draw from such an article? What is the point? I personally don't feel qualified to intervene in such a relationship where god knows what psychological issues are preventing abuse victims from leaving. If they have some actionable conclusions (even if it is just "we need more social workers" or whatever), I can behind that. But I suspect it is just a note in the general theme of hating on men, which the Guardian has very eagerly participated in for a while. So the takeaway from reading the article is just "men are bad and women are victims".
- catchmilk 7y ago
maerF0x0 7y ago
In addition, sadly there are nearly 0 shelters for men. https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male-victims-of-domestic-violence/ https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male-victi...
- rodolphoarruda 7y ago
  Good point. It reminds us that it's not only physical violence that counts. Sometimes psychological violence (harassment, blackmailing etc.) is even worse, especially when kids are put in the mix.
  - champagneben 7y ago
    I'm sure physical violence happens against men as well. Many would never retaliate or really physically defend themselves against a woman. And you can be very vulnerable when you sleep or look away.
- jschwartzi 7y ago
  If you think that’s important then open one.
  - retrac 7y ago
    I've spent the last 20 years providing informal supports to street-involved gay and bisexual youth and adults, many of whom are fleeing abuse of some kind. I was distantly involved in opening one of Toronto's first shelters for abused men and sole fathers with dependents, and it's been difficult to secure public funding comparable to what is given to women's abuse shelters on a per capita basis. The government largely seems to have the attitude that the general men's shelters are adequate, even for non-gender-conforming men and men who are abuse victims, and that children of men who are in shelters should simply be taken into foster care, rather than trying to keep the family together like they try with women's shelters. I say this with the hope that it doesn't devolve into a flamewar about gender relations and roles, but for whatever reasons, our society seems to be less sympathetic to a man fleeing an abusive partner or violence than it is to a woman in the same circumstance.
weggooi 7y ago
Estimates are that, if governments do nothing to combat Covid 19, then the life expectancy of the whole population will be reduced by a mere 20 days.[1] Sacrificing 4 months of exercise, meaningful conversation, sex and other basic human needs is really not worth it. [1] For example 13.26 million QALYs divided by the US population https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/another-covid-cost-benefit-analysis/ https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/another-covid-cost-ben...
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  And that load is taken almost entirely by the elderly (50+) population. Who don't matter? Are not worth it? They vote it turns out, so no we're not going to see a politician sacrificing them any time soon.
  - bagacrap 7y ago
    actually the median age of death is 80, for some more accurate perspective. Generally speaking I would consider myself lucky to live to that age and greedy if I thought that others should make major sacrifices so I could live slightly beyond it.
    - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
      Actually the unacceptable rise in mortality begins around 55. Who cares the median age, for something that's so severe? That's a spurious argument. "The median age of those executed by firing squad was 80, so why are you whining?"
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  > the life expectancy of the whole population will be reduced by a mere 20 days It's not evenly distributed, though.
- faizshah 7y ago
  The euphemism of “Life expectancy of the whole population” is disguising that you’re saying 200k-1.7 million deaths is worth you not having to stay home for 4 months. This isn’t even factoring in the millions who will suffer severe cases needing hospitalization and suffering permanent lung damage but won’t die. Secondly, the article you linked has several arguments against your own conclusion. For example, that many will suffer permanent lung damage, a significant multiple of the number of people who will die will be seriously ill and need hospitalization, and that this cost-benefit analysis overvalues the lives of the young over the old.
tal8d 7y ago
Another one for the pile of "Men dying of _ at a higher rate, women most affected!"
- babygoat 7y ago
  I feel sorry for anyone on lockdown with you.
  - viklove 7y ago
    Well I'm not saying this is the right place for his frustration, but it is a bit annoying that the narrative around domestic abuse is that it's something men to do women, while in reality the statistics show us that both men and women are guilty of domestic violence at about the same rate. There are thousands of shelters for women in the US, while for men there are less than 5 scattered across the country. Men and women should both have access to resources to protect them from abusive partners. This issue isn't as gendered as it seems to be. https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male-victims-of-domestic-violence/ https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male-victi... > Hines said some men don’t even realize they’re being abused until they read pamphlets — mostly geared toward women — listing abuse signs. “If you are the man, that’s a very difficult process to figure out,” she said. > In the U.S., about 31 percent of men and 37 percent of women have experienced sexual violence, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
    - mrlala 7y ago
      >while in reality the statistics show us that both men and women are guilty of domestic violence at about the same rate I find that _extremely_ suspect. > In the U.S., about 31 percent of men and 37 percent of women have experienced sexual violence, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. I am not disagreeing with that statistic, but it's a single number that can mean almost anything. For example, 80% of that 31% of men number could be men filling out a checklist and being like "well, technically that applied once" whereas 80% of women on that list could be frantically hitting every checkbox and it's happened multiple times. That's just way to broad a statistic and you should be suspect looking at those numbers. > Hines said some men don’t even realize they’re being abused until they read pamphlets That's kind of what I meant above... if a man needs to read a pamphlet to realize he's being abused whereas a woman is literally living in fear all day long... are you saying that's the same thing? Of course some men experience the extreme end of it.. but to pretend like the abuse goes equally both ways seems like grasping for equality straws.
mymythisisthis 7y ago
If you suspect one of your neighbors is being abused, call the police and report it. Don't wait, don't hesitate. Some people call the police because McDonald's screwed up their order. Call the police.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >If you suspect one of your neighbors is being abused, call the police and report it. Don't wait, don't hesitate. Talk to your neighbors before you call the cops on them!!!! If you see someone get physically abused then sure, you're witnessing a crime in progress, call the cops. If you're not then don't. It's wildly inappropriate to call the cops on a hunch. If you think a neighbor is being abused but are not sure then just be their friend and communicate with them (you're neighbors, it's reasonable for you to have each other's phone numbers and email addresses) until you can discern whether or not you are correct. Cops are good at arresting people. They are not good at mediating. If they get called to a DV situation where they can't arrest someone they have a lot of potential to make things worse.
  - NateEag 7y ago
    > If you think a neighbor is being abused but are not sure then just be their friend and communicate with them (you're neighbors, it's reasonable for you to have each other's phone numbers and email addresses) until you can discern whether or not you are correct. This "wait and see" approach gets people killed. Personally, I'd far rather be investigated for something I didn't do than have someone else die because a third party didn't act on their suspicions. Hunches can be wrong, but they come from somewhere, and they're often right. Furthermore, abusers are good at getting their victims to never tell anyone about what happens, and often at hiding or destroying evidence, too.
- zabana 7y ago
  McDonald's and KFC: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/police-urge-stop-calling-kfc-chicken-shortage-dhl-tower-hamlets-a8220321.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/police-urge-...
- deleted 7y ago
pvaldes 7y ago
I think that the situation can have more positive than negative effects in this sense. A major problem with abused people is that they assume that their current life is more predictable (comforting) than the other options (being jobless, poor and alone and having a low self-estimate), so they relativize and hide the situation because they fear more the uncertainty. Maybe they will solve the problem temporarily trying to avoid him/her for some hours. The lockdown can be a real eye-opener in this sense (and safety is at a fake cough of distance). Moreover, to hide the problem from their neighbors would be almost impossible. Everybody will be at home 24h/7days a week for months, including men and women that would be otherwise working in the city all day, unaware of the situation for years. A wife alone at home all day could choose avoid getting in trouble herself and shut their mouth about what happens in the next door just by fear. Men will be much less tolerant with this situation, specially when in front of their wifes and children. Will be pushed to do something about it to restore their role as, well... men. And of course, being cynical, there is a small possibility that the coronavirus just fix the bug for once and for good, or will send the abuser alone to an hospital with pneumonia. A place where will be unable to hide their body marks to medical staff, will find psychological support and enter in a program for people abused and will have some extra time to rethink about their toxic relationship and heal in every aspect
- KuhlMensch 7y ago
  I'm afraid that is absolutely NOT what we can expect. It is unfortunately much more statistical: The more time couples spend together when there is abuse, the more likely abuse will occur. There may be outlying scenarios like the ones you put forward, but in general, the risk of harm simply, increases.
- kevintb 7y ago
  Oh god, you clearly don’t have much knowledge of abusive partners, because you couldn’t be more wrong.
  - pvaldes 7y ago
    Maybe we could discuss the ideas instead to discuss my knowledge and just say I am wrong. We both could learn something. Play the neiborghs a role denouncing abusive situations? I think that yes, in my experience they sometimes do it. Therefore more people at home could be traslated easily to more videos, more audios, and more denounces. Am I wrong? Do the victims choose to ignore that they are being abused? IMHO Yes, they do, for years until the situation can't be hiddden anymore or something happens and the victim suddenly awake. If the victim does not choose to change and break with their former life, there is not a lot of things that other people can do. In my experience victims lie, systematically, constantly, about the real situation and they actively try to protect their abuser. Your experience can be different, of course.
rogerdickey 7y ago
For everyone, lockdown means relative captivity.
fdghfg 7y ago
can't imagine being locked up with a crazy bitch :D
eric_b 7y ago
I'm glad there's starting to be some press about different groups for whom the shutdown has outsized negative impacts. Another such "forgotten" group is Alcoholics Anonymous. Their meetings are mostly canceled, and for a lot of those folks those meetings are what keeps them on the wagon.
- Insanity 7y ago
  I think you could replace those with online meetups though?
guscost 7y ago
Also children with abusive parents. Normally one of the factors that can limit abuse is that a teacher or school employee might notice an injury. Some schools are trying their best with "remote visual inspections" (I wish I was making this up) but it's surely not as effective. And a shocking number of people are trying to rationalize this tragedy as "not that bad", wow.
LifeLiverTransp 7y ago
I must be so nice, even just having a abusive partner.
mrtweetyhack 7y ago
Maybe it's a fetish thing

221 points by jrwan 7y ago

brenden2 7y ago

Or if you just don't like your roommate, but can't afford to live on your own or move out.

JonAtkinson 7y ago
That is a pretty flippant comparison. I’m the trustee of a regional women’s shelter; we run a small building of 8 apartments which we offer to women and children as short-medium term refuges at no cost. The people who arrive with us are experiencing trauma past breaking point (often abuse is normalised and needs to be significantly escalated until someone is willing to take flight), with symptoms of PTSD, depression, and often significant physical injuries. Children absorb this abuse in a similar manner, without any means to process the trauma. Organisations like our face an extremely uncertain future; while the need for what we do remains, and probably increases, many women are unable to move or scared to due to the government advice on travel. This is against the backdrop of being unable to procure supplies; we provide our residents with everything from food to nappies, all donated or bought from cash donations. I appreciate that living with a difficult roommate is a testing circumstance. But domestic abuse is truly a different level of horror.
- buzzkillington 7y ago
  When do you think there will be shelters for the victims of domestic abuse from women? I had a a friend bullied to suicide by their mother but there was just no support for someone who wasn't physically abused by a man in the 00s.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    It's been a slow change, but it's changing. https://www.npr.org/2017/07/15/537381161/more-domestic-violence-shelters-for-men-opening https://www.npr.org/2017/07/15/537381161/more-domestic-viole...
  - scott_s 7y ago
    There are. The nonprofit my girlfriend works for works with all victims of domestic abuse. I imagine most such organizations do the same.
  - JonAtkinson 7y ago
    There are. Awareness is growing and all organisations which are serious will have a plan in place and facilities available. Should someone present at almost any shelter now their case will be assessed on whether violence occurred rather than gender. My organisation is in the UK, so I can’t speak for elsewhere. I’m sorry to hear about your friend, and for your loss. DV is truly horrible in all circumstances, and the effects ripple through many people.
    - buzzkillington 7y ago
      >Should someone present at almost any shelter now their case will be assessed on whether violence occurred rather than gender. Domestic abuse does not begin and end with violence. My friend was never physically hurt, yet he was still tortured enough to kill himself.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        Verbal/emotional abuse is still a form of violence. https://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-defined/ https://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-defined/ > Domestic violence includes behaviors that physically harm, arouse fear, prevent a partner from doing what they wish or force them to behave in ways they do not want. It includes the use of physical and sexual violence, threats and intimidation, emotional abuse and economic deprivation.
  - xenihn 7y ago
    Did the person you're replying to edit their post? If not, you should consider that lesbian relationships can be abusive.
- narag 7y ago
  But domestic abuse is truly a different level of horror. Trust me, there are very tough situations that you haven't seen or you wouldn't say that. Fortunately domestic abuse has some legal status. But falling with a mentally deranged person in a shared condo is dangerous and more usual than you think.
- brenden2 7y ago
  What about people who aren't women or children? They don't deserve help? Have we collectively decided to just let them rot?

duxup 7y ago

I feel like this is a valid concern, but really when it comes to abusive relationships ... a lockdown isn't the problem / aggravating circumstance /etc. I worked with kids who came from abusive / were in abusive families. The volume of abused partners who willingly stayed with the abuser was astonishingly high. They would even follow an abuser from one town to the next, even with services and options to not do so available. That's not to blame them, and circumstances make things very hard (especially if you're poor, have kids, or both). But it is the simple reality that the abused partner's willingness to leave and stick to that decision was the real trigger for any positive change, and not the circumstances of their life. It is not an easy decision or easy thing to do, but there was just not getting around that it was the key too. Obviously you can't just throw that at someone being abused because recrimination is of zero help / won't make things better. Either way in a lockdown, or out of one, the victims are often just as "locked" in psychologically.

scott_s 7y ago
The lockdown is not the problem, but it a problem. A new and novel one, as the article explains. My girlfriend works at a non-profit which provides shelter and support to domestic violence survivors. She counsels people in all stages. Some of her clients are dealing with this exact problem.
jasondclinton 7y ago
This is the most HN comment I've seen in a week. You tried not to blame the victim and acknowledge poverty is the trap but then came off as doing that in the context of personal responsibility shaming. Poverty or the fear of poverty is the real decision maker here; the math is as unforgiving as orbital mechanics. And please don't reply, "But there are programs!" Governments and NGOs convince voters and donors that they are doing something by creating programs for domestic violence and then make those programs so difficult to enroll in that they spend half of their funding creating labrythine beurocracy. Anyone already at their mental capacity with abuse struggles even starting these processes.
- duxup 7y ago
  I think you can recognize that when you see victims get out of abusive situations, it is the victim is the one who ultimately took the decisive action (abusers just generally don't stop doing that on their own...) as a fact, and still recognize how difficult it is, and you can even call for MORE / better programs (that's what I was working in ...), and there isn't any inherent blame or conflict there.

digitalsushi 7y ago

We might also take some delicate thoughts that the absence of a lockdown does not imply the absence of captivity. An abuser can leave for a workday, or weeks at a time, and still have a captive. But I very much understand the spirit here and now I am feeling sad thinking about all those people out there that are possibly suffering even more right now. I can hope that some of them find the strength to walk away after experiencing this, but I know fully well that this isn't how it works. It's crappy how I feel like I can change the world if I try, but I can't change the house down the street. And for all those other houses down the street that look happy, they could be hiding the biggest captives of all. What a heavy topic to unwind.

eklavya 7y ago
Don't be disheartened. Do your bit and don't give up hope, every small step counts. No one alone is strong enough to take on the weight of the world and all its miseries.
nabnob 7y ago
>It's crappy how I feel like I can change the world if I try, but I can't change the house down the street. That's because it's way easier to think about fixing the world in a theoretical way than it is to start making small realistic changes that gradually turn into something bigger. As someone fighting domestic abuse outside of the system, this work can get very messy but over time you develop your understanding of what works and what doesn't work. It is possible to make real progress and actually stop abusers.

Zenst 7y ago

I'm Stuck in a flat above heroin/crack abusers, they have dealers in all the time, abuse the victim card and keep getting away with it. Police, council.... all just victimhood them and dispite over years and years of having hard evidence, they just ignore it. Equally the partner of the women had a business, working and she got him hooked on the stuff, she's abusive, killing him and nobody over the years seems to care as she is for want of a better word - classic dark triad case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad I've suffered abuse, homophobic abuse and as I'm not gay, it has been ignored. Even malicious gossip about me being a peado, again all ignored by the powers that be and I've done all the right things, tried so many times and been ignored. Since lockdown they have guests all the time, dealers, really nasty people and yet, i'm still ignored. Housing association in question even gone out their way to protect them and she has driven so many people out of their homes due to her abuse and still is allowed to get away with it as she excels at playing the victim, lies and I could list endless examples, it just frustrates me how these people keep on being allowed to carry on. So yes, very mindful of abuse, sadly the system seems to excel at enabling them. Oh as for police, even had instances of them not only doing nothing, but informing the dealers who informed upon them. Like passing on statements to her so she can show the dealers she didn't inform upon them and with that, lets them back in to the detrement of those who stood up. So nobody dares do anything as they have lost faith in the police and all support. I'm now at stage that I need a good investigative reporter as I have recordings and other proofs as the police have failed me so many times that I've lost faith in them completly. As I have all support systems. I have aspergers and have serious PTSD due to years of this abuse and need help getting the truth out there. Sorry if this not best place to talk about this, but I've tried and tried all the right avenues and only to be failed. Also sorry that I can't bestow all the details as it is so painful and triggers my PTSD but I'll try.

topbanana 7y ago
You need to get the hell out of there. It can't be good for your mental health
- Zenst 7y ago
  Tried, even have psychiatric report stating as much and yet those who are supposed to help have failed me. Tried everything and nothing. But it's not just me, I have some good neibours who are less able to defend themselves and even if I moved, somebod else would suffer, let alone my good neibours and if I move, they would get worse downstairs. Only way is to see justice done and then move, though believe me I've tried, been messed around, and I'd articulate the horrors and failings but only so much can empart at a time as it causes me great stress reliving it. I'm already a lost cause, I just need to make sure others don't suffer, that's the only thing that keeps me alive.

OrangeMango 7y ago

Where I am, the second paragraph of the executive order establishing the "lockdown" explicitly states that victims of domestic violence are exempt and are urged to leave for a safer location. It makes clear further in the order that services provided are considered essential and should remain open and that transportation is also essential and should remain available. The news media simply does a terrible job of communicating what exactly these "lockdowns" mean. People that had a daily respite because their spouse left for work, or (as the article mentions) the stress of the situation is causing alcoholism and relapses into violence are people that need help and that the system in place most likely doesn't have the capacity to handle. This is where additional resources need to be made available.

empath75 7y ago
My wife works with domestic violence victims. It's extraordinarily difficult to get victims of domestic violence to leave their abusers even in the best of times. There's also not a lot of shelters available for women to stay in for long periods of time.
- OrangeMango 7y ago
  You are absolutely right. It's a very difficult problem to solve, and the current situation makes it far more challenging. But knowing that you are not legally required to stay has to be an improvement.
  - joveian 7y ago
    It is good to have that exception. Here in Portland, Oregon they are saying that the main issue is that finding long term housing, normally in short supply here, is now almost impossible.
lmkg 7y ago
Which do you think matters more to a person in an abusive situation? A. Paragraph two of some legal document somewhere B. "If you leave the house, I'll call the cops and tell them you're breaking quarantine, and then you'll go to jail and I'll be the only person who can get you out." I don't disagree with your last paragraph: There are other related issues and maybe some of them are worse. But how this actually plays out in an abusive situation is a fair bit removed from what the executive order says.

sanid 7y ago

It's known that abuse cases tend to spike around Christmas and new year as people tend to spend a lot of time home together with their abusive partners. That's during a rather merry time. With lockdowns in place and the stress people are dealing with currently not only will it get worse for current victims we will have more victims of abuse in the months coming. Governments should not only be concerned will the economic consequences this pandemic has caused but the social and mental health problems it is causing currently.

sdffdsfdsfsddsf 7y ago

Afaik the UK is protestant because hundreds of years ago, some king wanted to divorce his wife and catholic faith wouldn't have allowed him to. Just saying: the option for divorce has existed for a long time now. How can a woman describe to a journalist how abusive her partner is, and not split up or get a divorce? In most countries there is also some kind of social security, so women are not financially dependent on their partners anymore, either (not to mention the option to work themselves). So what are we to make of such articles? Internalize more hatred of men? Go round knocking on doors, asking women "excuse me, should I beat up your husband"? Maybe there are reasons that prevent women from leaving (and let's not forget many men are victims of domestic abuse, too). Then those reasons should be addressed. Those sob stories on "women have it so bad" don't do anybody any good. And also, personal responsibility is a theme here. You are responsible for choosing your partner, and also for splitting if the partner turns out to be abusive.

mjmasn 7y ago
I agree that personal responsibility is important but I don't think we can assume that someone who has been physically or emotionally abused is necessarily going to be making rational decisions. Even if they are, they may fear repercussions from the abuser, or the 'shame' of divorce etc. from family members who don't realise the full extent of the situation. Those reasons are somewhat difficult to address IMO.
- sdffdsfdsfsddsf 7y ago
  So what conclusions should we draw from such an article? What is the point? I personally don't feel qualified to intervene in such a relationship where god knows what psychological issues are preventing abuse victims from leaving. If they have some actionable conclusions (even if it is just "we need more social workers" or whatever), I can behind that. But I suspect it is just a note in the general theme of hating on men, which the Guardian has very eagerly participated in for a while. So the takeaway from reading the article is just "men are bad and women are victims".
catchmilk 7y ago

maerF0x0 7y ago

In addition, sadly there are nearly 0 shelters for men. https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male-victims-of-domestic-violence/ https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male-victi...

rodolphoarruda 7y ago
Good point. It reminds us that it's not only physical violence that counts. Sometimes psychological violence (harassment, blackmailing etc.) is even worse, especially when kids are put in the mix.
- champagneben 7y ago
  I'm sure physical violence happens against men as well. Many would never retaliate or really physically defend themselves against a woman. And you can be very vulnerable when you sleep or look away.
jschwartzi 7y ago
If you think that’s important then open one.
- retrac 7y ago
  I've spent the last 20 years providing informal supports to street-involved gay and bisexual youth and adults, many of whom are fleeing abuse of some kind. I was distantly involved in opening one of Toronto's first shelters for abused men and sole fathers with dependents, and it's been difficult to secure public funding comparable to what is given to women's abuse shelters on a per capita basis. The government largely seems to have the attitude that the general men's shelters are adequate, even for non-gender-conforming men and men who are abuse victims, and that children of men who are in shelters should simply be taken into foster care, rather than trying to keep the family together like they try with women's shelters. I say this with the hope that it doesn't devolve into a flamewar about gender relations and roles, but for whatever reasons, our society seems to be less sympathetic to a man fleeing an abusive partner or violence than it is to a woman in the same circumstance.

weggooi 7y ago

Estimates are that, if governments do nothing to combat Covid 19, then the life expectancy of the whole population will be reduced by a mere 20 days.[1] Sacrificing 4 months of exercise, meaningful conversation, sex and other basic human needs is really not worth it. [1] For example 13.26 million QALYs divided by the US population https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/another-covid-cost-benefit-analysis/ https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/another-covid-cost-ben...

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
And that load is taken almost entirely by the elderly (50+) population. Who don't matter? Are not worth it? They vote it turns out, so no we're not going to see a politician sacrificing them any time soon.
- bagacrap 7y ago
  actually the median age of death is 80, for some more accurate perspective. Generally speaking I would consider myself lucky to live to that age and greedy if I thought that others should make major sacrifices so I could live slightly beyond it.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    Actually the unacceptable rise in mortality begins around 55. Who cares the median age, for something that's so severe? That's a spurious argument. "The median age of those executed by firing squad was 80, so why are you whining?"
ceejayoz 7y ago
> the life expectancy of the whole population will be reduced by a mere 20 days It's not evenly distributed, though.
faizshah 7y ago
The euphemism of “Life expectancy of the whole population” is disguising that you’re saying 200k-1.7 million deaths is worth you not having to stay home for 4 months. This isn’t even factoring in the millions who will suffer severe cases needing hospitalization and suffering permanent lung damage but won’t die. Secondly, the article you linked has several arguments against your own conclusion. For example, that many will suffer permanent lung damage, a significant multiple of the number of people who will die will be seriously ill and need hospitalization, and that this cost-benefit analysis overvalues the lives of the young over the old.

tal8d 7y ago

Another one for the pile of "Men dying of _ at a higher rate, women most affected!"

babygoat 7y ago
I feel sorry for anyone on lockdown with you.
- viklove 7y ago
  Well I'm not saying this is the right place for his frustration, but it is a bit annoying that the narrative around domestic abuse is that it's something men to do women, while in reality the statistics show us that both men and women are guilty of domestic violence at about the same rate. There are thousands of shelters for women in the US, while for men there are less than 5 scattered across the country. Men and women should both have access to resources to protect them from abusive partners. This issue isn't as gendered as it seems to be. https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male-victims-of-domestic-violence/ https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male-victi... > Hines said some men don’t even realize they’re being abused until they read pamphlets — mostly geared toward women — listing abuse signs. “If you are the man, that’s a very difficult process to figure out,” she said. > In the U.S., about 31 percent of men and 37 percent of women have experienced sexual violence, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
  - mrlala 7y ago
    >while in reality the statistics show us that both men and women are guilty of domestic violence at about the same rate I find that _extremely_ suspect. > In the U.S., about 31 percent of men and 37 percent of women have experienced sexual violence, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. I am not disagreeing with that statistic, but it's a single number that can mean almost anything. For example, 80% of that 31% of men number could be men filling out a checklist and being like "well, technically that applied once" whereas 80% of women on that list could be frantically hitting every checkbox and it's happened multiple times. That's just way to broad a statistic and you should be suspect looking at those numbers. > Hines said some men don’t even realize they’re being abused until they read pamphlets That's kind of what I meant above... if a man needs to read a pamphlet to realize he's being abused whereas a woman is literally living in fear all day long... are you saying that's the same thing? Of course some men experience the extreme end of it.. but to pretend like the abuse goes equally both ways seems like grasping for equality straws.

mymythisisthis 7y ago

If you suspect one of your neighbors is being abused, call the police and report it. Don't wait, don't hesitate. Some people call the police because McDonald's screwed up their order. Call the police.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>If you suspect one of your neighbors is being abused, call the police and report it. Don't wait, don't hesitate. Talk to your neighbors before you call the cops on them!!!! If you see someone get physically abused then sure, you're witnessing a crime in progress, call the cops. If you're not then don't. It's wildly inappropriate to call the cops on a hunch. If you think a neighbor is being abused but are not sure then just be their friend and communicate with them (you're neighbors, it's reasonable for you to have each other's phone numbers and email addresses) until you can discern whether or not you are correct. Cops are good at arresting people. They are not good at mediating. If they get called to a DV situation where they can't arrest someone they have a lot of potential to make things worse.
- NateEag 7y ago
  > If you think a neighbor is being abused but are not sure then just be their friend and communicate with them (you're neighbors, it's reasonable for you to have each other's phone numbers and email addresses) until you can discern whether or not you are correct. This "wait and see" approach gets people killed. Personally, I'd far rather be investigated for something I didn't do than have someone else die because a third party didn't act on their suspicions. Hunches can be wrong, but they come from somewhere, and they're often right. Furthermore, abusers are good at getting their victims to never tell anyone about what happens, and often at hiding or destroying evidence, too.
zabana 7y ago
McDonald's and KFC: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/police-urge-stop-calling-kfc-chicken-shortage-dhl-tower-hamlets-a8220321.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/police-urge-...
deleted 7y ago

pvaldes 7y ago

I think that the situation can have more positive than negative effects in this sense. A major problem with abused people is that they assume that their current life is more predictable (comforting) than the other options (being jobless, poor and alone and having a low self-estimate), so they relativize and hide the situation because they fear more the uncertainty. Maybe they will solve the problem temporarily trying to avoid him/her for some hours. The lockdown can be a real eye-opener in this sense (and safety is at a fake cough of distance). Moreover, to hide the problem from their neighbors would be almost impossible. Everybody will be at home 24h/7days a week for months, including men and women that would be otherwise working in the city all day, unaware of the situation for years. A wife alone at home all day could choose avoid getting in trouble herself and shut their mouth about what happens in the next door just by fear. Men will be much less tolerant with this situation, specially when in front of their wifes and children. Will be pushed to do something about it to restore their role as, well... men. And of course, being cynical, there is a small possibility that the coronavirus just fix the bug for once and for good, or will send the abuser alone to an hospital with pneumonia. A place where will be unable to hide their body marks to medical staff, will find psychological support and enter in a program for people abused and will have some extra time to rethink about their toxic relationship and heal in every aspect

KuhlMensch 7y ago
I'm afraid that is absolutely NOT what we can expect. It is unfortunately much more statistical: The more time couples spend together when there is abuse, the more likely abuse will occur. There may be outlying scenarios like the ones you put forward, but in general, the risk of harm simply, increases.
kevintb 7y ago
Oh god, you clearly don’t have much knowledge of abusive partners, because you couldn’t be more wrong.
- pvaldes 7y ago
  Maybe we could discuss the ideas instead to discuss my knowledge and just say I am wrong. We both could learn something. Play the neiborghs a role denouncing abusive situations? I think that yes, in my experience they sometimes do it. Therefore more people at home could be traslated easily to more videos, more audios, and more denounces. Am I wrong? Do the victims choose to ignore that they are being abused? IMHO Yes, they do, for years until the situation can't be hiddden anymore or something happens and the victim suddenly awake. If the victim does not choose to change and break with their former life, there is not a lot of things that other people can do. In my experience victims lie, systematically, constantly, about the real situation and they actively try to protect their abuser. Your experience can be different, of course.

rogerdickey 7y ago

For everyone, lockdown means relative captivity.

fdghfg 7y ago

can't imagine being locked up with a crazy bitch :D

eric_b 7y ago

I'm glad there's starting to be some press about different groups for whom the shutdown has outsized negative impacts. Another such "forgotten" group is Alcoholics Anonymous. Their meetings are mostly canceled, and for a lot of those folks those meetings are what keeps them on the wagon.

Insanity 7y ago
I think you could replace those with online meetups though?

guscost 7y ago

Also children with abusive parents. Normally one of the factors that can limit abuse is that a teacher or school employee might notice an injury. Some schools are trying their best with "remote visual inspections" (I wish I was making this up) but it's surely not as effective. And a shocking number of people are trying to rationalize this tragedy as "not that bad", wow.

LifeLiverTransp 7y ago

I must be so nice, even just having a abusive partner.

mrtweetyhack 7y ago

Maybe it's a fetish thing