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All Sonos products will continue to work past May

219 points by wlj 7y ago

adamfeldman 7y ago
Found this for further context -- January 21 blog post: https://blog.sonos.com/en/end-of-software-updates-for-legacy-products/ https://blog.sonos.com/en/end-of-software-updates-for-legacy...
LeoPanthera 7y ago
Hugged to death, I think.
- cushychicken 7y ago
  They emailed out the same statement to Sonos subscribers: We heard you. We did not get this right from the start. My apologies for that and I wanted to personally assure you of the path forward: First, rest assured that come May, when we end new software updates for our legacy products, they will continue to work just as they do today. We are not bricking them, we are not forcing them into obsolescence, and we are not taking anything away. Many of you have invested heavily in your Sonos systems, and we intend to honor that investment for as long as possible. While legacy Sonos products won’t get new software features, we pledge to keep them updated with bug fixes and security patches for as long as possible. If we run into something core to the experience that can’t be addressed, we’ll work to offer an alternative solution and let you know about any changes you’ll see in your experience. Secondly, we heard you on the issue of legacy products and modern products not being able to coexist in your home. We are working on a way to split your system so that modern products work together and get the latest features, while legacy products work together and remain in their current state. We’re finalizing details on this plan and will share more in the coming weeks. While we have a lot of great products and features in the pipeline, we want our customers to upgrade to our latest and greatest products when they’re excited by what the new products offer, not because they feel forced to do so. That’s the intent of the trade up program we launched for our loyal customers. Thank you for being a Sonos customer. Thank you for taking the time to give us your feedback. I hope that you’ll forgive our misstep, and let us earn back your trust. Without you, Sonos wouldn't exist and we’ll work harder than ever to earn your loyalty every single day. If you have any further questions please don’t hesitate to contact us. Sincerely, Patrick Patrick Spence CEO, Sonos
- annoyingnoob 7y ago
  Lennie Small CEO, Sonos
WheelsAtLarge 7y ago
I get it. It's hard to maintain hardware forever but the current trend of making hardware obsolete is just wasteful. These companies need to find a business model for old hardware. I'm open to paying a maintenance fee that would give me critical updates after a certain point in time. Maybe 5%/yr of the original cost after 5 years. Sending working hardware to the dump is not a long term fix.
- cushychicken 7y ago
  This comment makes me think you didn't read the linked article. No hardware is being made obsolete, or getting sent to the dump.
  - alasdair_ 7y ago
    >No hardware is being made obsolete, or getting sent to the dump. I assume this is in response to Sonos' program where they brick perfectly-usable devices (which then get sent to the dump) to prevent re-use after you take part in a trade-in program. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191231/07584043658/sonos-wasteful-recycle-mode-bricks-perfectly-usable-tech.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191231/07584043658/sonos...
    - McTossOut 7y ago
      Oh, good, an outright lie. This is how a $2B company behaves - before they've turned a profit? If anything in the last 6 years, Google/Apple have made significant headway standardizing the 'Cast' workflow. If the hardware could, "receive, forward, and playback" sound from a network 5 years ago, it should be able to do so until the link is obsolete, every AP I've encountered supports all the way back to 802.11a from 15 years ago, and in the worst case you just bridge your APs. Apps are apps, networks are networks, if they're anticipating getting pushed out of this niche by the "ecosystem proprietors", Sonos is stupid and should realize that they just can't do anything about it and focus on their product development, pricing, their horrid marketing / website and not pissing away their multi-million dollar TV ad expenditure over the years on bad press. What happens if consumers turn on the music industry should they start tuning their EQ out of the box for fart noises, screaming, and 20 year old Asian women punching gak? What if it becomes economical to fill your whole house with water, maybe they should develop underwater speakers asap! Clean up your act, Sonos.
slg 7y ago
The page isn't working for me so I can't confirm this, but the headline is so innocuous that it needing to exist at all probably shows a huge underlying problem. Is there some name for that phenomenon? Is it some relative of Betteridge's law? EDIT: I just realized this is the equivalent of the "asking questions already answered by my shirt" meme. The existence of this headline just causes people to ask the question why the headline needs to exist. [1] - https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/a-lot-of-questions-already-answered-by-the-shirt https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/a-lot-of-questions-already-an...
- wlj 7y ago
  I’d say your intuition is correct. The headline makes you think everything is back to normal, and that they’ve reversed course, but I can’t actually see that much has meaningfully changed. It sounds like all your speakers will work after May, but if you have a mix of legacy and modern speakers, you’ll be forced to split them into two totally separate systems.
- justforyou 7y ago
  >> The page isn't working for me so I can't confirm this I don't know how I feel abouy a company that sends mixed messages about the shelf life of their products and can't manage to consistently serve a blog post to its customers.
Hamuko 7y ago
The title initially made me believe this was about the devices that they purposefully bricked in order to sell new ones (at some discount). But apparently it's actually about all Sonos products that they didn't purposefully turn into waste.
- Kalium 7y ago
  Sonos lets users choose to brick old devices in exchange for a discount. Ones that don't will no longer get updates past May. The way this has played out in social media has been weird. I've seen more than one person turn this into "Sonos is going to brick all my devices!". It's either the world's worst communication strategy at work or people deliberately conflating two parts of one message.
  - sp332 7y ago
    Ones that don't will no longer get updates past May. It goes beyond that, because they won't update any devices on the same network as old devices either. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/01/sonos-sunsets-several-smart-speakers-software-support-spurring-storm/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/01/sonos... In May they plan to have a way to segregate old devices onto a separate network, but they still won't work together with new ones.
    - Kalium 7y ago
      Having used and owned Sonos devices, this doesn't surprise me at all. The devices expect to work together in complex ways. Expecting new ones to correctly work together with old ones over the same network can be expected to entail pretty much all the work of supporting the old devices. New devices are now constrained by the networking hardware and protocols of the old ones... forever. Which is the whole thing Sonos is clearly trying to get away from. Supporting legacy devices forever is clearly untenable. With that said, I do see another angle they could have pursued. They could have led with the network segregation approach, making it clear that the legacy devices will still work perfectly with one another on their own network. Sonos could also have said that legacy devices may stop working as expected without warning after any future update that applies to current devices only. This strikes me as likely to work great until it comes down and then it blows up catastrophically when the update lands. Those are the best options I can see, but my vision is of course quite limited. Perhaps you have better ideas!
stirlo 7y ago
I'm surprised they're issuing a statement admitting they made a "misstep". Surely they knew in advance the original update (removing support for their earliest adopters) would be received extremely negatively. I would have thought their comms strategy would have been to hold the line and wait for it to die down rather than revising their status so quickly. Either way the damage is done. It's become clear through the "recycling" program, the revision of the Sonos ONE after only 16 months and now the lobotomizing of the original Play 5 that they are not going to stand behind their products like they used to. I'm not buying more $400 speakers from a company that's aim is to force upgrades by deprecating support to bring up their quarterly sales figures. Time to buy some Chromecast or Airplay 2 devices and sign up for an ecosystem from a company that has a different revenue stream and doesn't need to force rapid hardware refreshes.
- tranklor 7y ago
  >revision of the Sonos ONE after only 16 months The original ONE is still supported >lobotomizing of the original Play 5 discontinued 4 years ago - that's a pretty long tail and in line with Apple >Time to buy some Chromecast or Airplay 2 devices Airplay support depends on mfg of your device. Apple has a similar policy to sonos (5 years for phones, i believe) - but they state it on their site! I think Sonos' biggest mistake was not having a transparent policy like Apple does. The real issue here, to me, is that they broke an unstated and unwritten promise: consumers inferred that devices had lifetime support - an inference that i think is completely reasonable!
  - taneq 7y ago
    > discontinued 4 years ago - that's a pretty long tail and in line with Apple My stereo system was built in 1999. It still works fine and will continue to do so no matter what Sony does with their web servers.
    - corebit 7y ago
      Your ability to find tapes, discs, or things to plugin to it (assuming it even supports that) are disappearing with increasing speed.
zaroth 7y ago
During a home renovation last year I added in-ceiling speakers throughout the first floor. I bought 8 Polk Audio speakers for $45 each plus a couple hundred feet of speaker cable from Monoprice and an 8 channel amplifier off Amazon which takes audio in from my receiver, which supports Chromecast and AirPlay. I had the opportunity to do this because the ceilings were already ripped down to redo lighting. The installers asked why I wasn’t going with Sonos and I said why would I replace a device which is literally impossible to become obsolete, requires zero configuration, and is almost impossible to break with a device which will maybe last 5 years if I’m lucky and requires configuration, software updates, and license agreements? I get it if you have absolutely no way to run the wires then a WiFi system maybe almost makes sense. Otherwise how can you beat hard-wired speakers and a dumb 8-channel amp?
- antoniuschan99 7y ago
  Can’t you bluetooth to that amp anyway? It’s just an additional aux?
  - ghaff 7y ago
    With luck. I've never been able to make the Bluetooth to my Denon work. I just plug in an old iPhone instead.
    - antoniuschan99 7y ago
      The Logitech one I have from 4 years ago felt that way. Bluetooth is getting pretty rock solid now though. Even a cheap MPow Bluetooth audio jack for the Car works pretty well.
      - ghaff 7y ago
        Yeah, it's probably worth my buying an external Bluetooth receiver to plug into my stereo at this point. My current setup works but it would be easier if I could just broadcast from any of my devices.
  - 7y ago
Angostura 7y ago
I'm not looking forward to June.
23B1 7y ago
Solid response from a company that historically seemed deaf to customer feedback. This is a move in the right direction for Sonos - but I definitely will hold off on buying any new Sonos equipment until I see how they handle this.
DevKoala 7y ago
The "smart" appliances sound so dumb in retrospect.
- cafxx 7y ago
  They're smart all right. Just not for the customers.
RyanShook 7y ago
From the original blog post: "We've now come to a point where some of the oldest products have been stretched to their technical limits in terms of memory and processing power," Since when does playing back music files stretch the limits of what these speakers were designed to do? I have invested pretty heavily in Sonos but now realize I would have been better off connecting an Airplay adapter to a traditional sound system...
- lysium 7y ago
  So true! It would be reasonable if they said that only the newer devices get the newest features. Instead, they chose to upgrade all devices until they are maxed out and then turn around to their pioneering customers telling them they need to buy new hardware just so that they can keep development costs low.
- rsync 7y ago
  "Since when does playing back music files stretch the limits of what these speakers were designed to do?" Playing back music files is a use-case that is antagonistic to their current business model and something they would disable immediately if they could. Playing back music files has no social component, does not require a mobile phone app, and can be done without generating metrics and personally identifiable information. Playing back music files is the last thing Sonos wants you to do.
  - t-writescode 7y ago
    They’re literally in the speaker business, how do you get this argument? I also have to be on my wifi to talk to my speakers. They don’t need to keep servers running on the internet for me to talk to my speakers. They have one job. If they’re requiring internet connectivity for everything control or local-stream powered, they’re absolutely doing it wrong.
    - unethical_ban 7y ago
      They're in the making-money business and their brand is associated with sound. They will manipulate their product lines and revenue streams to maximize the value of their brand, to maximize profit.
mrich 7y ago
How about enacting a law that you either need to keep your hardware running via software updates, or you need to open-source all the software for others to keep doing so the moment you cease support. Would prevent a lot of waste.
- richardthered 7y ago
  Most people don't want to manually update code and patch their speakers. They want to push a button, and get music. Not run a local IT department
  - worldsayshi 7y ago
    Open source doesn't need to be more complicated. There are several open source projects with majority of users with only consumer mindset. VLC comes to mind. The original producers of the software could be unhelpful even if they comply though. That's another story.
  - misnome 7y ago
    Right, people don’t want to manually patch their speakers, but people probably don’t want to throw them out after a few years either. In any case, presumably in this proposed scenario secondary service industries would pop up to do this for them/offer ongoing alternatives. Much like computer maintenance and repair.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - wasdfff 7y ago
    Or it could operate like every other speaker produced in the history of earth that doesn't receive over the air updates: just fine.
- worldsayshi 7y ago
  I think this is one example among many similar that needs to happen. Though there's tremendous inertia for ideas like this. The people who needs to understand or care probably doesn't.
zweep 7y ago
I feel like all of this IoT hardware should be rented rather than bought. If your piece of crap can suddenly stop working, I don't want to own it. Rent it to me and take it back when it's useless.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  If my piece of crap can suddenly stop working, then I don't want it even on a rental basis. This is why the direction that the IoT market has decided to take things makes any of that stuff completely unacceptable to me. None of it can be trusted -- it is more likely than not spying on you, the way it works can change at any moment without notice, including ceasing to function.
- doublerabbit 7y ago
  No way. I don't want to rent a device, it's a principle that's flawed. Maybe there are advantages to such but the disadvantages outweigh every time. Take a car for example. You can now lease the latest and greatest car, but you don't own that car, it's not your asset. If your in dire straits; where if you need to sell, you cannot, you don't own it, it's not yours to sell. Not forgetting that the vendor then decides the price you pay. "Cool, due to climate change tax, we are increasing your payment". All you can do is pay the demand or live without a car which if you need to commute, your screwed. What you might own may be junk, it still has a value. When you lease, you get none of all that. It's a worrying trend.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- berbec 7y ago
  Sadly, most hardware being rented and not bought is already close to the truth.
- conjectures 7y ago
  Yeah, this would be the consumer flipside of everything looking something like a subscriptions model. If the vendor wants to force obsolescence it should be on their own assets.
dickeytk 7y ago
To focus on one product: the original play:5 came out Nov 2009 (which is impacted here). The replacement came out in Sep 2015. For a company that builds their brand loyalty on keeping existing customers happy with their purchases (via OTA updates and slow replacement frequency), 4.5 years isn't long enough in my opinion—hopefully there weren't a ton of play:5 buyers in that final year. Forever isn't reasonable either of course with how heavily cloud based they are. I think it should be closer to 10. It's a little hard to imagine 2010 devices keeping up in 2020, but I'm sure that 2030 will be kinder to 2020 hardware. In the same way a 1995 laptop is far less capable than a 2005 compared to 2015. I think they could make that commitment. I give Sonos a longer time I would others because they justify their price tag based on how unlikely you are to have to replace it. Rather—that's how I justified all of mine. And they should be up front with what that duration will be when you buy it.
- sundaeofshock 7y ago
  My dad’s JBL speakers from 1970 still sound great and he has options for streaming music if he was so inclined. I wouldn’t be impressed with a decade of use out of a speaker.
  - dickeytk 7y ago
    You’re not in Sonos’s target market if you want it to last 50 years. That’s fine. All the more reason they should be explicit so the consumer knows what they’re buying. I certainly don’t mind 10 year lifecycle even if that bothers you.
- PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago
  My squeezebox/logitech devices from the early 2000's are still working fine in 2020. Open source server software too.
  - dickeytk 7y ago
    I don’t understand your point. I’m trying to argue companies should be up front about minimum support length at purchase. Is it that 10 years isn’t long enough?
jonplackett 7y ago
I really don’t get why people want Sonos speakers in the first place. Linking together two pieces of technology with different lifespans just seems silly. Speakers are mature hardware. Sound is not going to get better any time soon. They’ve been about as good as they can be for decades. A good speaker and amp might last you 25 years or more. WiFi/AirPlay/etc is new and changing. Don’t put these two together in an inseparable product! It’s probably the reason Apple never released that smart TV everyone was expecting - it’s just better to have a TV that you can keep for years + a less expensive box you can replace as technology changes.
- pivo 7y ago
  I bought them so I could put speakers anywhere I wanted to and not have to run audio cable to them. Also, I don’t want a stack of audio equipment taking up space. Where I could run wires I used the Sonos amp and traditional speakers for the reason you have described.
  - owenwil 7y ago
    Yeah, exactly this. The original comment misses a key point: speakers have been the same for decades, but Sonos did add magic sauce that builds on top of that legacy... multi-room audio. I'd argue that's worth the investment, and it's a really great improvement to the audio experience. That's hard to achieve without re-wiring your entire house, and arguably worth the risk/bet on Sonos, which has had a historically really good track record with these things.
    - nowaycrazy 7y ago
      In my view the multi-room feature is nice, but on the whole not worth the trade over simpler and less expensive portable Bluetooth speakers, which I have found to be more useful over time.
    - jonplackett 7y ago
      Do you really need them ‘anywhere’ though? I just got a pair of really nice speakers, a mini amp and plugged them into an old Apple TV. They sit happily in the lounge and sound great. They’re not as pretty as a Sonos but they’ll last ages and I can just replace any part of them that goes out of date. I do like the look of Sonos but the price tag just seemed way too steep
mongol 7y ago
I am very satisfied with my Snapcast + Home Assistant setup. I needed to spend more time get my setup going than a Sonos user probably needs, that is not for everyone, I realize that. I think it does what Sonos does. But maybe Sonos is more advanced.
shanecleveland 7y ago
I suspect a lot of this has to do with perception. Even though a phone or laptop may appear to be in fine condition after several years and may even work very well, we understand that the internals no longer support more advanced, current hardware and software capabilities. But I don't think the same way about speakers. The part that really matters for a speaker is the construction of the cabinet and the quality of the actual speakers (woofers, mids, tweeters, etc.). Traditional speakers have very little electronics involved. Too bad Sonos didn't design a more modular/swappable system. I can understand needing to replace a central receiver/hub on occasion to take advantage of new capabilities, and/or swap out a component of the speaker, such as a bluetooth receiver. But to make all speakers in a system no longer supported is hard to understand.
rahilb 7y ago
I have a connect amp: how would one go about trying to root it? I have no experience with reverse engineering or hardware really, are there any good resources for stuff like this?
nl 7y ago
People seem to miss the point of Sonos. Yes, you can build a good stereo system, connect some kind of streaming system and end up with something roughly the equivalent of Sonos. But this is the whole Dropbox vs Git+Remote Backup+Your own server thing. The ease of use and "it just works" simplicity is the feature, and every other setup compromises this to some extent. I have a Onkyo & Dali hi-fi setup. It's a great system. And I've made attempts to make it as easy to use as Sonos. Let's go through the things I've tried and the compromises they have: - Harmony remote + CEC to control the TV and stereo. This is ok (the Harmony products are good) but has *exactly the same issues as Sonos: a propriety system that is subject to upgrades. I've had to throw away one system already. - Bluetooth streaming. Tried Airplay, but there is no reliable Android support. Bluetooth is ok, but if the range is annoying if someone is walking around the house. - Zones. My amp sort of has a concept of this, but I haven't even attempted to get it to work. The wiring of speakers is enough to put me off it. Sonos solves all these problems. But obsoleting their speakers is horrible, and 4 years seems too short a time for this. I'm not sure what the solution is, but some kind of maintenance fee is something I'd consider - especially for older hardware. It'd have to be substantially less than what I pay for Spotify though. Maybe after 5 years I'd pay $10/year?
- cr0sh 7y ago
  What about something like this? http://strobe.audio/ http://strobe.audio/ I mean - that's just the first hit I found searching for open-source multi-room audio streaming for the raspberry pi. There were others. Seriously - once you got one node to work, at that point clone the sd card (just dd it), and pop the image onto new cards for each new node. I don't know what kind of configuration or fiddling you might have to do, and while it isn't a "plug-n-play" thing like Sonos, you (and everyone else here) probably have the smarts to figure it out. And once you have it figured out for one - the copying it and duping it to the other nodes and setting them up is probably not much of a stretch.
  - nl 7y ago
    It says on that site "the user interface is a work in progress". There a lots of these projects. They all sorts, kinda work if you are prepared to do work and ignore the faults. For one, it doesn't do HDMI CEC. For another, no form of surround sound. No Spotify support. Etc etc. I just don't think that trade-off is worthwhile. One you buy active speakers (which have to be wired to the raspberry pi, sigh..) it isn't even much cheaper.
wrsh07 7y ago
I'm honestly quite confused why they can't revert to a "dumb" speaker mode and then provide a proprietary Chromecast equivalent that only works with their speakers that can be trivially replaced This would mean that if you want continued software updates you just plug in the expansion pack, like I did for my N64.
microdrum 7y ago
Maybe they should include an AUX port on their speakers.
- Marsymars 7y ago
  The Play:5 does. (And their soundbars/soundbase have optical input.) They rest of the lineup should have aux ports.
ggm 7y ago
Forgive me if I missed this in discussion, but I thought the bricking event, was if you attempted to surrender the old licence rights, to enable a discount code. If the bricking happened irrespective, I think it maybe broke expectations across the consumer/supplier boundary. If you are 'turning in' a device to get a discount on a new device, I don't personally have a problem with them bricking it, because you are doing the virtual equivalent of giving it back to them, to get the new one. e.g. Google say five devices. you want to add a sixth? you have to de-licence one. If you do, its local copy of Google IPR protected content could wipe. Switch google accounts? it can wipe. This is not "nice" but its not uncommon. Did I mis-understand? (not a sonos customer btw, outside observer, un-involved)
- stirlo 7y ago
  This is a new user hostile move from them. They have announced they are removing support for ALL older model speakers not just "discount code redeemed" ones. Additionally they disabling updates for any new speakers that remain in the same audio system as any old products.
  - ggm 7y ago
    Oh, thats pretty bad. "either buy new or we won't meet statutory obligations regarding your old product" is really bad. This happened with some 2G handsets in the 2G->3G cutoff: traders in the UK were selling 2G handset packages to customers 2 days after the official cutoff date: the regulator made them refund/replace.
metabagel 7y ago
How do I tell if I have the older or newer version of the Sonos One?
mattbee 7y ago
This non-apology announces no changes, and does nothing for Sonos owners worrying which product get cut off next. They're even still selling the Connect on their site - with no warnings! https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/shop/connect.html https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/shop/connect.html It seems completely incompetent, but makes sense if you believe they're going to be acquired this year. Ben Einstein said last in July 18 (https://blog.bolt.io/sonos-one/ https://blog.bolt.io/sonos-one/) Sonos are "a traditional speaker manufacturer incrementally adding technology in an attempt to keep up with a fast-moving race". Sonos probably still have the best multi-room speaker solution, but 1) their lead on that is slipping, and 2) I don't think new buyers care about multiroom as much as they do streaming services & features - i.e. the bits Sonos must be being squeezed on. Their proposed solution for customers with old devices is a software-managed network split between old & new - that will kills multiroom playback for holdouts! That's the worst of both worlds - Sonos paying programmers to prop up old devices, while owners still prepare to see a fundamental degradation in their system. Then the tie-in with IKEA seems like an enormous dilution of their brand. Now you can buy Sonos components from IKEA, and the IKEA home app can also control all of your Sonos speakers (not just the IKEA ones). So that's that I think they have a deal in the works (IKEA?) - and they're massaging a few quarters to show briefly increased profitability while the long-term vision can go to hell. In that light, cutting off old products in the face of so many angry customers makes sense. They remove a legacy support liability instantly, allowing them to be bullish about future R&D costs. And the angry customers are the ones bought into Sonos' 15yo product vision - they just may not represent much future revenue.
- redsymbol 7y ago
  "Non-apology..." "Completely incompetent..." What are you talking about? This letter from the CEO of the company clearly apologies, takes 100% responsibility, makes zero excuses. And among other changes, it plainly promises the devices will be supported for the foreseeable future. To quote: "[T]hey will continue to work as they do today. We are not bricking them, we are not forcing them into obsolescence, and we are not taking anything away." If you worked at this company in any role (CEO or something else - you choose), what specifically would you have done differently so far?
NoPicklez 7y ago
I really hope I can continue to use my Sonos home theatre setup for years to come. For atleast playing music through the Sonos app and watching TV. I have two play 3's, playbar and a sub and after having them for 4 years it still blows me away the sound and how convenient to is to use between watching TV and playing music.
- Marsymars 7y ago
  Even without the Sonos app, you could feed your audio sources through an HDMI switch that sends a single optical output to the Playbar, and you could make one of those sources an Apple TV or a Bluetooth receiver or whatever.
nowaycrazy 7y ago
Aside from range, why not simply go with Bluetooth? Over the years I’ve replaced most of my Sonos with Bose bluetooth, which are more versatile (i can easily play stuff from my phone) and sound better. The only somewhat decent Sonos speaker I still use is he bar for the TV, but even that is annoying eg. delayed sound on new play, no sound indicator, etc. Why bother with Sonos when simple Bluetooth does more for a lot less?
strags 7y ago
I have a Sonos that came with my house. It's actually the least of my worries. The house was built about 10 years ago with what (I presume) was a state-of-the-art system at the time - an "AudioAccess WHEN" system. It works fine - there are keypads and speakers in every room, and I can pipe audio from the Sonos (or an Airplay receiver) to anywhere. It's a weird topology, however - the speakers in each room are wired to the keypads (which is where the amps live). Each keypad has a power connection, and some kind of (presumably proprietary) Cat-5 connection to a central hub. The hub in turn is connected via Cat-5 to a head unit with FM receiver, CD/AUX inputs, etc... When we moved into the house, the head unit wasn't working - it refused to establish a connection to the hub. I managed to track down a working tech support phone number, only to hear that they don't make this system any more, and that the head units often fail in this way. I managed to find what may have been the last replacement head unit in existence on Ebay - bought it, and fortunately everything started working! I am, however, dreading the day when it inevitably dies. Since the speaker wires go to the keypad amps, and not to the wiring closet (where the hubs live), I'm not sure what I could replace it with - beyond re-running new speaker wire to a completely new system in the wiring closet.
- cr0sh 7y ago
  If there's cat5 at the keypads back to the central hub, and the speaker wires go to the keypads, then you can just hook the wires from the speakers to the cat5 - choose one or two pair (depending on the distance, you might want to "double up" to lower the impedance over the run), and hook 'em up. Then you just need to figure out a distribution system at the central hub location. If you find you can run the speakers on a single pair per speaker - that will leave you with 2 other pairs on the cat5 - which you could use for control or communication. But what I would do before all of that is try to reverse-engineer the protocols or whatnot that the whole system is currently using, so you can keep the keypads/amps and such, and create some kind of custom main "head unit" later.
weq 7y ago
Why is the advice to switch to Apple or Google ecosystems in lue of Sonos? I use a 2004 era laptop to power my media experiences throughout my home, connected to regular ole amplifiers of variying vintages. 10-15yrs old off ebay seems to be a sweat spot, you pay ~10% the original 2-10k price tags because these units are purchased by wealthy consumer audiophiles.
nsm 7y ago
The first story in Cory Doctorow's book "Radicalized" is about toasters that stop working because the company that sold them goes bankrupt, and how that ends up in refugees being evicted from their homes. We aren't there yet, but each of these devices is a small step in that direction.
yarg 7y ago
The only viable solution to this is open source firmware.
mikl 7y ago
> While legacy Sonos products won’t get new software features, we pledge to keep them updated with bug fixes and security patches for as long as possible. As long as possible is not a super clear commitment, but otherwise I’m happy with this. I don’t need new features, I just want my Sonos setup to keep working. Glad they listened.
clement_b 7y ago
Do they know that this tentative move highlighted how the entire conneced device market is a bad deal for customers? Detractors of connected devices often tout how useless these are when the internet is temporarily down, but the biggest threat is not there (hopefully). The biggest threat comes from the entity providing the link. Those guys need to be up forever! And that's not the only issue. There is no economic reasons for companies like Sonos to maintain devices for ever, for free. So either they stop doing so, or a new business models will arise, making connected devices yet another subscription-based play. Why not? Connected devices exist because of our laziness at the cost of sustainability, privacy, security, control. Apart from that they are a great deal!
acd 7y ago
Or you could get Vinyl player and à Classic amp. Plus sides does not get obselete. Doesn’t require software updates. Good stereo separation.
lawlorino 7y ago
This whole mess has got me thinking we'll start seeing more of this from other manufacturers of "smart home" technology in the future as they realise it's expensive to maintain legacy systems and force people to keep buying new stuff every few of years.
AndrewDucker 7y ago
I miss the days of standards. Having to buy into an ecosystem for this kind of thing is remarkably annoying. I want to be able to buy any "smart" speakers I like and have them work together through a common control system. Not be stuck at the mercy of individual company decisions.
givinguflac 7y ago
All you people suggesting chromecast as an audio solution are hilarious. It’s literally already in the unsupported state without updates that Sonos is going to do with products ten times as old. Wtf are you thinking? What is the difference in your mind between Sonos issuing bug fixes but not new features, and relying on chromecast audio which already stopped supports years ago? It’s absurd to complain and then choose a product with even less support which was dropped after like a year on the market
- creaturemachine 7y ago
  I'm not going to try to change your mind, but the chromecast audio was a great device that did exactly what it was meant for and nothing more. It didn't try to be a voice assistant, or control your lights, or pump ads in your face. It was also $35, which is pretty easy to throw away if and when it does get kill-switched by Google. When that happens I won't have to scrap my speakers and amp to chase the next streaming fad. If your crystal ball will choose the Sonos product that will still be supported in 10 years, then by all means go for it.
  - givinguflac 7y ago
    You still don’t get it. It has ALREADY been “kill switched by google” and won’t get updates. It’s not even for sale! Why is chrome cast audio existing in that state (functional, no new features coming) acceptable, but the identical scenario is atrocious in your mind for Sonos?
    - creaturemachine 7y ago
      Because it just works, and I'll continue to get every cent of that $35 out of it until I can no longer. But seriously, enjoy your Sonos.
      - givinguflac 7y ago
        Sonos just works too and I’ll get every cent out of it as well. You think it’s coincidence google sold a cutthroat priced knock off of stolen Sonos tech? It’s literally what Sonos complains about in their lawsuit. Enjoy your product as well
Unklejoe 7y ago
You know what? I'm not going to let people gaslight me into believing that a stereo system needs to be integrated into the "cloud" and rely on some third party service to function. I have HiFi equipment literally from the 1970's and 1980's that will continue to operate well beyond the lifespan of any cloud-connected web-app-configured third-party-controlled WiFi Sonos type bullshit. It's not like there have been really ground breaking improves in speaker technology since the 80's anyway. Maybe some material improvements? I'm pretty sure my B&W speakers from the 80's can still hold their own against a decent stereo today... So what are you paying for? WiFi connectivity? Is that even really any more convenient? How about when it stops working? God, I'm triggered.
- electrograv 7y ago
  Yeah, there’s a good chance your B&W from the 80s sound better than any of Sonos’s speakers, and perhaps even better than modern B&W (since in modern B&W regressed to less neutral speakers to demo a more sparkly sound in showrooms, even though it limits their versatility of optimal music). I’m completely with you about disliking this modern trend of disposable and brick-able “internet required” speakers combined with modern software culture’s bizarre love for this “service” model where you are expected to perpetually accept OTA updates to keep using your product — mandatory OTA updates that are only good until the company behind them stops caring about old products they’re no longer making money off of, and decides to brick or cripple them. But regarding speakers: There have definitely been advancements in modern speaker design. Probably the biggest advancement is the state-of-the-art science of psycho-acoustics, developed by the Canadian National Research Council, and later continued by the research division of Harman International. The results of this research has directly lead to better speakers by Harman Intl. companies (Revel, JBL, etc.) and throughout much (but not all) of the speaker industry. Psycho-acoustics informs speaker engineers how to objectively measure flaws in a speaker in ways that go far beyond an old fashioned on-axis frequency response plot (which tells you nearly nothing): measuring FR and others in a densely sampled sphere surface around a speaker in an anechoic chamber has been shown to provide almost all the info you need to evaluate and design a speaker. The end result of this is pretty amazing speakers for great prices. A $500 pair of JBL 308p Mk II will probably get you 80% of the way to audio perfection for most people, for example. A Neumann KH120A ($1300/pair) will get you maybe 90% to perfection[1], though at the expense of some bass extension which you may want to complement with a subwoofer. And then we have some exotic speaker designs made affordable; for example, you can get speakers with a RAAL Ribbon Tweeter from Ascend Acoustics which will blow away any other modern speaker costing 2-3x as much. A $2k - $3k speaker and subwoofer system from Ascend+Rythmik[2] will probably get you to 99% of the best sound quality in the world. For example, I’ve owned Bowers and Wilkins 702 S2 before discovering the science and innovations of some exotic components like the RAAL tweeter. This research later lead me to buy Ascend Sierra RAAL Towers, which while costing significantly less than the B&W 702 S2 sound many times better. (Bowers and Wilkins intentionally choose to ignore the science). The difference (to my ears) is truly astounding — the Ascends are truly in another league of quality and realism. And, the versatility improvement of neutral (flat frequency response, on and off axis) speakers over colored ones is amazing if you like listening to a wide range of music. [1] https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-120-a-g https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-120-a-g The Neumann KH120A is probably the most amazing sounding compact speaker I have ever heard. It is seriously mind blowing how amazing such a small speaker sounds, and how much quality bass it can put out. It also has some of the most impressively perfect scientific measurements I’ve ever seen (which you can review on the link above in the “data and diagrams” section). The only thing better is Ascend’s speakers with RAAL tweeters, or Genelec pro monitors (which are quite overpriced). [2] Example: Ascend Sierra Luna pair + Rythmik F12 will probably get you to 98% of audio perfection: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/luna/luna.html http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/luna/... http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/f12se.html http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/f12se.htm...
doubtfuluser 7y ago
i Think what they misunderstood is really their customerbase. Mid level audiophiles who want comfortable music with good sound. I don’t care if I can talk with my speaker and order pizza or not. And my rough guess is, that just looking at the data their customers don’t change zones constantly but use a few very often. The strategy that they currently seem to follow is a strategy against service providers in the field of music, instead of working on what they actually sell: hardware. No matter how many blog posts will follow, as long as they don’t restart innovating in the interest of their core customers (mid audiophiles looking for comfort and usability to listen to music), they are losing me as a customer and i would bet they are also going to lose against the echo/HomePods and so on. Sad to see a once innovative company struggling because they try to win a box fight not realizing they are better at swimming.

219 points by wlj 7y ago

Found this for further context -- January 21 blog post: https://blog.sonos.com/en/end-of-software-updates-for-legacy-products/ https://blog.sonos.com/en/end-of-software-updates-for-legacy...

LeoPanthera 7y ago

Hugged to death, I think.

cushychicken 7y ago
They emailed out the same statement to Sonos subscribers: We heard you. We did not get this right from the start. My apologies for that and I wanted to personally assure you of the path forward: First, rest assured that come May, when we end new software updates for our legacy products, they will continue to work just as they do today. We are not bricking them, we are not forcing them into obsolescence, and we are not taking anything away. Many of you have invested heavily in your Sonos systems, and we intend to honor that investment for as long as possible. While legacy Sonos products won’t get new software features, we pledge to keep them updated with bug fixes and security patches for as long as possible. If we run into something core to the experience that can’t be addressed, we’ll work to offer an alternative solution and let you know about any changes you’ll see in your experience. Secondly, we heard you on the issue of legacy products and modern products not being able to coexist in your home. We are working on a way to split your system so that modern products work together and get the latest features, while legacy products work together and remain in their current state. We’re finalizing details on this plan and will share more in the coming weeks. While we have a lot of great products and features in the pipeline, we want our customers to upgrade to our latest and greatest products when they’re excited by what the new products offer, not because they feel forced to do so. That’s the intent of the trade up program we launched for our loyal customers. Thank you for being a Sonos customer. Thank you for taking the time to give us your feedback. I hope that you’ll forgive our misstep, and let us earn back your trust. Without you, Sonos wouldn't exist and we’ll work harder than ever to earn your loyalty every single day. If you have any further questions please don’t hesitate to contact us. Sincerely, Patrick Patrick Spence CEO, Sonos
annoyingnoob 7y ago
Lennie Small CEO, Sonos

WheelsAtLarge 7y ago

I get it. It's hard to maintain hardware forever but the current trend of making hardware obsolete is just wasteful. These companies need to find a business model for old hardware. I'm open to paying a maintenance fee that would give me critical updates after a certain point in time. Maybe 5%/yr of the original cost after 5 years. Sending working hardware to the dump is not a long term fix.

cushychicken 7y ago
This comment makes me think you didn't read the linked article. No hardware is being made obsolete, or getting sent to the dump.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  >No hardware is being made obsolete, or getting sent to the dump. I assume this is in response to Sonos' program where they brick perfectly-usable devices (which then get sent to the dump) to prevent re-use after you take part in a trade-in program. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191231/07584043658/sonos-wasteful-recycle-mode-bricks-perfectly-usable-tech.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191231/07584043658/sonos...
  - McTossOut 7y ago
    Oh, good, an outright lie. This is how a $2B company behaves - before they've turned a profit? If anything in the last 6 years, Google/Apple have made significant headway standardizing the 'Cast' workflow. If the hardware could, "receive, forward, and playback" sound from a network 5 years ago, it should be able to do so until the link is obsolete, every AP I've encountered supports all the way back to 802.11a from 15 years ago, and in the worst case you just bridge your APs. Apps are apps, networks are networks, if they're anticipating getting pushed out of this niche by the "ecosystem proprietors", Sonos is stupid and should realize that they just can't do anything about it and focus on their product development, pricing, their horrid marketing / website and not pissing away their multi-million dollar TV ad expenditure over the years on bad press. What happens if consumers turn on the music industry should they start tuning their EQ out of the box for fart noises, screaming, and 20 year old Asian women punching gak? What if it becomes economical to fill your whole house with water, maybe they should develop underwater speakers asap! Clean up your act, Sonos.

slg 7y ago

The page isn't working for me so I can't confirm this, but the headline is so innocuous that it needing to exist at all probably shows a huge underlying problem. Is there some name for that phenomenon? Is it some relative of Betteridge's law? EDIT: I just realized this is the equivalent of the "asking questions already answered by my shirt" meme. The existence of this headline just causes people to ask the question why the headline needs to exist. [1] - https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/a-lot-of-questions-already-answered-by-the-shirt https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/a-lot-of-questions-already-an...

wlj 7y ago
I’d say your intuition is correct. The headline makes you think everything is back to normal, and that they’ve reversed course, but I can’t actually see that much has meaningfully changed. It sounds like all your speakers will work after May, but if you have a mix of legacy and modern speakers, you’ll be forced to split them into two totally separate systems.
justforyou 7y ago
>> The page isn't working for me so I can't confirm this I don't know how I feel abouy a company that sends mixed messages about the shelf life of their products and can't manage to consistently serve a blog post to its customers.

Hamuko 7y ago

The title initially made me believe this was about the devices that they purposefully bricked in order to sell new ones (at some discount). But apparently it's actually about all Sonos products that they didn't purposefully turn into waste.

Kalium 7y ago
Sonos lets users choose to brick old devices in exchange for a discount. Ones that don't will no longer get updates past May. The way this has played out in social media has been weird. I've seen more than one person turn this into "Sonos is going to brick all my devices!". It's either the world's worst communication strategy at work or people deliberately conflating two parts of one message.
- sp332 7y ago
  Ones that don't will no longer get updates past May. It goes beyond that, because they won't update any devices on the same network as old devices either. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/01/sonos-sunsets-several-smart-speakers-software-support-spurring-storm/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/01/sonos... In May they plan to have a way to segregate old devices onto a separate network, but they still won't work together with new ones.
  - Kalium 7y ago
    Having used and owned Sonos devices, this doesn't surprise me at all. The devices expect to work together in complex ways. Expecting new ones to correctly work together with old ones over the same network can be expected to entail pretty much all the work of supporting the old devices. New devices are now constrained by the networking hardware and protocols of the old ones... forever. Which is the whole thing Sonos is clearly trying to get away from. Supporting legacy devices forever is clearly untenable. With that said, I do see another angle they could have pursued. They could have led with the network segregation approach, making it clear that the legacy devices will still work perfectly with one another on their own network. Sonos could also have said that legacy devices may stop working as expected without warning after any future update that applies to current devices only. This strikes me as likely to work great until it comes down and then it blows up catastrophically when the update lands. Those are the best options I can see, but my vision is of course quite limited. Perhaps you have better ideas!

stirlo 7y ago

I'm surprised they're issuing a statement admitting they made a "misstep". Surely they knew in advance the original update (removing support for their earliest adopters) would be received extremely negatively. I would have thought their comms strategy would have been to hold the line and wait for it to die down rather than revising their status so quickly. Either way the damage is done. It's become clear through the "recycling" program, the revision of the Sonos ONE after only 16 months and now the lobotomizing of the original Play 5 that they are not going to stand behind their products like they used to. I'm not buying more $400 speakers from a company that's aim is to force upgrades by deprecating support to bring up their quarterly sales figures. Time to buy some Chromecast or Airplay 2 devices and sign up for an ecosystem from a company that has a different revenue stream and doesn't need to force rapid hardware refreshes.

tranklor 7y ago
>revision of the Sonos ONE after only 16 months The original ONE is still supported >lobotomizing of the original Play 5 discontinued 4 years ago - that's a pretty long tail and in line with Apple >Time to buy some Chromecast or Airplay 2 devices Airplay support depends on mfg of your device. Apple has a similar policy to sonos (5 years for phones, i believe) - but they state it on their site! I think Sonos' biggest mistake was not having a transparent policy like Apple does. The real issue here, to me, is that they broke an unstated and unwritten promise: consumers inferred that devices had lifetime support - an inference that i think is completely reasonable!
- taneq 7y ago
  > discontinued 4 years ago - that's a pretty long tail and in line with Apple My stereo system was built in 1999. It still works fine and will continue to do so no matter what Sony does with their web servers.
  - corebit 7y ago
    Your ability to find tapes, discs, or things to plugin to it (assuming it even supports that) are disappearing with increasing speed.

zaroth 7y ago

During a home renovation last year I added in-ceiling speakers throughout the first floor. I bought 8 Polk Audio speakers for $45 each plus a couple hundred feet of speaker cable from Monoprice and an 8 channel amplifier off Amazon which takes audio in from my receiver, which supports Chromecast and AirPlay. I had the opportunity to do this because the ceilings were already ripped down to redo lighting. The installers asked why I wasn’t going with Sonos and I said why would I replace a device which is literally impossible to become obsolete, requires zero configuration, and is almost impossible to break with a device which will maybe last 5 years if I’m lucky and requires configuration, software updates, and license agreements? I get it if you have absolutely no way to run the wires then a WiFi system maybe almost makes sense. Otherwise how can you beat hard-wired speakers and a dumb 8-channel amp?

antoniuschan99 7y ago
Can’t you bluetooth to that amp anyway? It’s just an additional aux?
- ghaff 7y ago
  With luck. I've never been able to make the Bluetooth to my Denon work. I just plug in an old iPhone instead.
  - antoniuschan99 7y ago
    The Logitech one I have from 4 years ago felt that way. Bluetooth is getting pretty rock solid now though. Even a cheap MPow Bluetooth audio jack for the Car works pretty well.
    - ghaff 7y ago
      Yeah, it's probably worth my buying an external Bluetooth receiver to plug into my stereo at this point. My current setup works but it would be easier if I could just broadcast from any of my devices.
- 7y ago

Angostura 7y ago

I'm not looking forward to June.

23B1 7y ago

Solid response from a company that historically seemed deaf to customer feedback. This is a move in the right direction for Sonos - but I definitely will hold off on buying any new Sonos equipment until I see how they handle this.

DevKoala 7y ago

The "smart" appliances sound so dumb in retrospect.

cafxx 7y ago
They're smart all right. Just not for the customers.

RyanShook 7y ago

From the original blog post: "We've now come to a point where some of the oldest products have been stretched to their technical limits in terms of memory and processing power," Since when does playing back music files stretch the limits of what these speakers were designed to do? I have invested pretty heavily in Sonos but now realize I would have been better off connecting an Airplay adapter to a traditional sound system...

lysium 7y ago
So true! It would be reasonable if they said that only the newer devices get the newest features. Instead, they chose to upgrade all devices until they are maxed out and then turn around to their pioneering customers telling them they need to buy new hardware just so that they can keep development costs low.
rsync 7y ago
"Since when does playing back music files stretch the limits of what these speakers were designed to do?" Playing back music files is a use-case that is antagonistic to their current business model and something they would disable immediately if they could. Playing back music files has no social component, does not require a mobile phone app, and can be done without generating metrics and personally identifiable information. Playing back music files is the last thing Sonos wants you to do.
- t-writescode 7y ago
  They’re literally in the speaker business, how do you get this argument? I also have to be on my wifi to talk to my speakers. They don’t need to keep servers running on the internet for me to talk to my speakers. They have one job. If they’re requiring internet connectivity for everything control or local-stream powered, they’re absolutely doing it wrong.
  - unethical_ban 7y ago
    They're in the making-money business and their brand is associated with sound. They will manipulate their product lines and revenue streams to maximize the value of their brand, to maximize profit.

mrich 7y ago

How about enacting a law that you either need to keep your hardware running via software updates, or you need to open-source all the software for others to keep doing so the moment you cease support. Would prevent a lot of waste.

richardthered 7y ago
Most people don't want to manually update code and patch their speakers. They want to push a button, and get music. Not run a local IT department
- worldsayshi 7y ago
  Open source doesn't need to be more complicated. There are several open source projects with majority of users with only consumer mindset. VLC comes to mind. The original producers of the software could be unhelpful even if they comply though. That's another story.
- misnome 7y ago
  Right, people don’t want to manually patch their speakers, but people probably don’t want to throw them out after a few years either. In any case, presumably in this proposed scenario secondary service industries would pop up to do this for them/offer ongoing alternatives. Much like computer maintenance and repair.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- wasdfff 7y ago
  Or it could operate like every other speaker produced in the history of earth that doesn't receive over the air updates: just fine.
worldsayshi 7y ago
I think this is one example among many similar that needs to happen. Though there's tremendous inertia for ideas like this. The people who needs to understand or care probably doesn't.

zweep 7y ago

I feel like all of this IoT hardware should be rented rather than bought. If your piece of crap can suddenly stop working, I don't want to own it. Rent it to me and take it back when it's useless.

JohnFen 7y ago
If my piece of crap can suddenly stop working, then I don't want it even on a rental basis. This is why the direction that the IoT market has decided to take things makes any of that stuff completely unacceptable to me. None of it can be trusted -- it is more likely than not spying on you, the way it works can change at any moment without notice, including ceasing to function.
doublerabbit 7y ago
No way. I don't want to rent a device, it's a principle that's flawed. Maybe there are advantages to such but the disadvantages outweigh every time. Take a car for example. You can now lease the latest and greatest car, but you don't own that car, it's not your asset. If your in dire straits; where if you need to sell, you cannot, you don't own it, it's not yours to sell. Not forgetting that the vendor then decides the price you pay. "Cool, due to climate change tax, we are increasing your payment". All you can do is pay the demand or live without a car which if you need to commute, your screwed. What you might own may be junk, it still has a value. When you lease, you get none of all that. It's a worrying trend.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
berbec 7y ago
Sadly, most hardware being rented and not bought is already close to the truth.
conjectures 7y ago
Yeah, this would be the consumer flipside of everything looking something like a subscriptions model. If the vendor wants to force obsolescence it should be on their own assets.

dickeytk 7y ago

To focus on one product: the original play:5 came out Nov 2009 (which is impacted here). The replacement came out in Sep 2015. For a company that builds their brand loyalty on keeping existing customers happy with their purchases (via OTA updates and slow replacement frequency), 4.5 years isn't long enough in my opinion—hopefully there weren't a ton of play:5 buyers in that final year. Forever isn't reasonable either of course with how heavily cloud based they are. I think it should be closer to 10. It's a little hard to imagine 2010 devices keeping up in 2020, but I'm sure that 2030 will be kinder to 2020 hardware. In the same way a 1995 laptop is far less capable than a 2005 compared to 2015. I think they could make that commitment. I give Sonos a longer time I would others because they justify their price tag based on how unlikely you are to have to replace it. Rather—that's how I justified all of mine. And they should be up front with what that duration will be when you buy it.

sundaeofshock 7y ago
My dad’s JBL speakers from 1970 still sound great and he has options for streaming music if he was so inclined. I wouldn’t be impressed with a decade of use out of a speaker.
- dickeytk 7y ago
  You’re not in Sonos’s target market if you want it to last 50 years. That’s fine. All the more reason they should be explicit so the consumer knows what they’re buying. I certainly don’t mind 10 year lifecycle even if that bothers you.
PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago
My squeezebox/logitech devices from the early 2000's are still working fine in 2020. Open source server software too.
- dickeytk 7y ago
  I don’t understand your point. I’m trying to argue companies should be up front about minimum support length at purchase. Is it that 10 years isn’t long enough?

jonplackett 7y ago

I really don’t get why people want Sonos speakers in the first place. Linking together two pieces of technology with different lifespans just seems silly. Speakers are mature hardware. Sound is not going to get better any time soon. They’ve been about as good as they can be for decades. A good speaker and amp might last you 25 years or more. WiFi/AirPlay/etc is new and changing. Don’t put these two together in an inseparable product! It’s probably the reason Apple never released that smart TV everyone was expecting - it’s just better to have a TV that you can keep for years + a less expensive box you can replace as technology changes.

pivo 7y ago
I bought them so I could put speakers anywhere I wanted to and not have to run audio cable to them. Also, I don’t want a stack of audio equipment taking up space. Where I could run wires I used the Sonos amp and traditional speakers for the reason you have described.
- owenwil 7y ago
  Yeah, exactly this. The original comment misses a key point: speakers have been the same for decades, but Sonos did add magic sauce that builds on top of that legacy... multi-room audio. I'd argue that's worth the investment, and it's a really great improvement to the audio experience. That's hard to achieve without re-wiring your entire house, and arguably worth the risk/bet on Sonos, which has had a historically really good track record with these things.
  - nowaycrazy 7y ago
    In my view the multi-room feature is nice, but on the whole not worth the trade over simpler and less expensive portable Bluetooth speakers, which I have found to be more useful over time.
  - jonplackett 7y ago
    Do you really need them ‘anywhere’ though? I just got a pair of really nice speakers, a mini amp and plugged them into an old Apple TV. They sit happily in the lounge and sound great. They’re not as pretty as a Sonos but they’ll last ages and I can just replace any part of them that goes out of date. I do like the look of Sonos but the price tag just seemed way too steep

mongol 7y ago

I am very satisfied with my Snapcast + Home Assistant setup. I needed to spend more time get my setup going than a Sonos user probably needs, that is not for everyone, I realize that. I think it does what Sonos does. But maybe Sonos is more advanced.

shanecleveland 7y ago

I suspect a lot of this has to do with perception. Even though a phone or laptop may appear to be in fine condition after several years and may even work very well, we understand that the internals no longer support more advanced, current hardware and software capabilities. But I don't think the same way about speakers. The part that really matters for a speaker is the construction of the cabinet and the quality of the actual speakers (woofers, mids, tweeters, etc.). Traditional speakers have very little electronics involved. Too bad Sonos didn't design a more modular/swappable system. I can understand needing to replace a central receiver/hub on occasion to take advantage of new capabilities, and/or swap out a component of the speaker, such as a bluetooth receiver. But to make all speakers in a system no longer supported is hard to understand.

rahilb 7y ago

I have a connect amp: how would one go about trying to root it? I have no experience with reverse engineering or hardware really, are there any good resources for stuff like this?

nl 7y ago

People seem to miss the point of Sonos. Yes, you can build a good stereo system, connect some kind of streaming system and end up with something roughly the equivalent of Sonos. But this is the whole Dropbox vs Git+Remote Backup+Your own server thing. The ease of use and "it just works" simplicity is the feature, and every other setup compromises this to some extent. I have a Onkyo & Dali hi-fi setup. It's a great system. And I've made attempts to make it as easy to use as Sonos. Let's go through the things I've tried and the compromises they have: - Harmony remote + CEC to control the TV and stereo. This is ok (the Harmony products are good) but has *exactly the same issues as Sonos: a propriety system that is subject to upgrades. I've had to throw away one system already. - Bluetooth streaming. Tried Airplay, but there is no reliable Android support. Bluetooth is ok, but if the range is annoying if someone is walking around the house. - Zones. My amp sort of has a concept of this, but I haven't even attempted to get it to work. The wiring of speakers is enough to put me off it. Sonos solves all these problems. But obsoleting their speakers is horrible, and 4 years seems too short a time for this. I'm not sure what the solution is, but some kind of maintenance fee is something I'd consider - especially for older hardware. It'd have to be substantially less than what I pay for Spotify though. Maybe after 5 years I'd pay $10/year?

cr0sh 7y ago
What about something like this? http://strobe.audio/ http://strobe.audio/ I mean - that's just the first hit I found searching for open-source multi-room audio streaming for the raspberry pi. There were others. Seriously - once you got one node to work, at that point clone the sd card (just dd it), and pop the image onto new cards for each new node. I don't know what kind of configuration or fiddling you might have to do, and while it isn't a "plug-n-play" thing like Sonos, you (and everyone else here) probably have the smarts to figure it out. And once you have it figured out for one - the copying it and duping it to the other nodes and setting them up is probably not much of a stretch.
- nl 7y ago
  It says on that site "the user interface is a work in progress". There a lots of these projects. They all sorts, kinda work if you are prepared to do work and ignore the faults. For one, it doesn't do HDMI CEC. For another, no form of surround sound. No Spotify support. Etc etc. I just don't think that trade-off is worthwhile. One you buy active speakers (which have to be wired to the raspberry pi, sigh..) it isn't even much cheaper.

wrsh07 7y ago

I'm honestly quite confused why they can't revert to a "dumb" speaker mode and then provide a proprietary Chromecast equivalent that only works with their speakers that can be trivially replaced This would mean that if you want continued software updates you just plug in the expansion pack, like I did for my N64.

microdrum 7y ago

Maybe they should include an AUX port on their speakers.

Marsymars 7y ago
The Play:5 does. (And their soundbars/soundbase have optical input.) They rest of the lineup should have aux ports.

ggm 7y ago

Forgive me if I missed this in discussion, but I thought the bricking event, was if you attempted to surrender the old licence rights, to enable a discount code. If the bricking happened irrespective, I think it maybe broke expectations across the consumer/supplier boundary. If you are 'turning in' a device to get a discount on a new device, I don't personally have a problem with them bricking it, because you are doing the virtual equivalent of giving it back to them, to get the new one. e.g. Google say five devices. you want to add a sixth? you have to de-licence one. If you do, its local copy of Google IPR protected content could wipe. Switch google accounts? it can wipe. This is not "nice" but its not uncommon. Did I mis-understand? (not a sonos customer btw, outside observer, un-involved)

stirlo 7y ago
This is a new user hostile move from them. They have announced they are removing support for ALL older model speakers not just "discount code redeemed" ones. Additionally they disabling updates for any new speakers that remain in the same audio system as any old products.
- ggm 7y ago
  Oh, thats pretty bad. "either buy new or we won't meet statutory obligations regarding your old product" is really bad. This happened with some 2G handsets in the 2G->3G cutoff: traders in the UK were selling 2G handset packages to customers 2 days after the official cutoff date: the regulator made them refund/replace.

metabagel 7y ago

How do I tell if I have the older or newer version of the Sonos One?

mattbee 7y ago

This non-apology announces no changes, and does nothing for Sonos owners worrying which product get cut off next. They're even still selling the Connect on their site - with no warnings! https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/shop/connect.html https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/shop/connect.html It seems completely incompetent, but makes sense if you believe they're going to be acquired this year. Ben Einstein said last in July 18 (https://blog.bolt.io/sonos-one/ https://blog.bolt.io/sonos-one/) Sonos are "a traditional speaker manufacturer incrementally adding technology in an attempt to keep up with a fast-moving race". Sonos probably still have the best multi-room speaker solution, but 1) their lead on that is slipping, and 2) I don't think new buyers care about multiroom as much as they do streaming services & features - i.e. the bits Sonos must be being squeezed on. Their proposed solution for customers with old devices is a software-managed network split between old & new - that will kills multiroom playback for holdouts! That's the worst of both worlds - Sonos paying programmers to prop up old devices, while owners still prepare to see a fundamental degradation in their system. Then the tie-in with IKEA seems like an enormous dilution of their brand. Now you can buy Sonos components from IKEA, and the IKEA home app can also control all of your Sonos speakers (not just the IKEA ones). So that's that I think they have a deal in the works (IKEA?) - and they're massaging a few quarters to show briefly increased profitability while the long-term vision can go to hell. In that light, cutting off old products in the face of so many angry customers makes sense. They remove a legacy support liability instantly, allowing them to be bullish about future R&D costs. And the angry customers are the ones bought into Sonos' 15yo product vision - they just may not represent much future revenue.

redsymbol 7y ago
"Non-apology..." "Completely incompetent..." What are you talking about? This letter from the CEO of the company clearly apologies, takes 100% responsibility, makes zero excuses. And among other changes, it plainly promises the devices will be supported for the foreseeable future. To quote: "[T]hey will continue to work as they do today. We are not bricking them, we are not forcing them into obsolescence, and we are not taking anything away." If you worked at this company in any role (CEO or something else - you choose), what specifically would you have done differently so far?

NoPicklez 7y ago

I really hope I can continue to use my Sonos home theatre setup for years to come. For atleast playing music through the Sonos app and watching TV. I have two play 3's, playbar and a sub and after having them for 4 years it still blows me away the sound and how convenient to is to use between watching TV and playing music.

Marsymars 7y ago
Even without the Sonos app, you could feed your audio sources through an HDMI switch that sends a single optical output to the Playbar, and you could make one of those sources an Apple TV or a Bluetooth receiver or whatever.

nowaycrazy 7y ago

Aside from range, why not simply go with Bluetooth? Over the years I’ve replaced most of my Sonos with Bose bluetooth, which are more versatile (i can easily play stuff from my phone) and sound better. The only somewhat decent Sonos speaker I still use is he bar for the TV, but even that is annoying eg. delayed sound on new play, no sound indicator, etc. Why bother with Sonos when simple Bluetooth does more for a lot less?

strags 7y ago

I have a Sonos that came with my house. It's actually the least of my worries. The house was built about 10 years ago with what (I presume) was a state-of-the-art system at the time - an "AudioAccess WHEN" system. It works fine - there are keypads and speakers in every room, and I can pipe audio from the Sonos (or an Airplay receiver) to anywhere. It's a weird topology, however - the speakers in each room are wired to the keypads (which is where the amps live). Each keypad has a power connection, and some kind of (presumably proprietary) Cat-5 connection to a central hub. The hub in turn is connected via Cat-5 to a head unit with FM receiver, CD/AUX inputs, etc... When we moved into the house, the head unit wasn't working - it refused to establish a connection to the hub. I managed to track down a working tech support phone number, only to hear that they don't make this system any more, and that the head units often fail in this way. I managed to find what may have been the last replacement head unit in existence on Ebay - bought it, and fortunately everything started working! I am, however, dreading the day when it inevitably dies. Since the speaker wires go to the keypad amps, and not to the wiring closet (where the hubs live), I'm not sure what I could replace it with - beyond re-running new speaker wire to a completely new system in the wiring closet.

cr0sh 7y ago
If there's cat5 at the keypads back to the central hub, and the speaker wires go to the keypads, then you can just hook the wires from the speakers to the cat5 - choose one or two pair (depending on the distance, you might want to "double up" to lower the impedance over the run), and hook 'em up. Then you just need to figure out a distribution system at the central hub location. If you find you can run the speakers on a single pair per speaker - that will leave you with 2 other pairs on the cat5 - which you could use for control or communication. But what I would do before all of that is try to reverse-engineer the protocols or whatnot that the whole system is currently using, so you can keep the keypads/amps and such, and create some kind of custom main "head unit" later.

weq 7y ago

Why is the advice to switch to Apple or Google ecosystems in lue of Sonos? I use a 2004 era laptop to power my media experiences throughout my home, connected to regular ole amplifiers of variying vintages. 10-15yrs old off ebay seems to be a sweat spot, you pay ~10% the original 2-10k price tags because these units are purchased by wealthy consumer audiophiles.

nsm 7y ago

The first story in Cory Doctorow's book "Radicalized" is about toasters that stop working because the company that sold them goes bankrupt, and how that ends up in refugees being evicted from their homes. We aren't there yet, but each of these devices is a small step in that direction.

yarg 7y ago

The only viable solution to this is open source firmware.

mikl 7y ago

> While legacy Sonos products won’t get new software features, we pledge to keep them updated with bug fixes and security patches for as long as possible. As long as possible is not a super clear commitment, but otherwise I’m happy with this. I don’t need new features, I just want my Sonos setup to keep working. Glad they listened.

clement_b 7y ago

Do they know that this tentative move highlighted how the entire conneced device market is a bad deal for customers? Detractors of connected devices often tout how useless these are when the internet is temporarily down, but the biggest threat is not there (hopefully). The biggest threat comes from the entity providing the link. Those guys need to be up forever! And that's not the only issue. There is no economic reasons for companies like Sonos to maintain devices for ever, for free. So either they stop doing so, or a new business models will arise, making connected devices yet another subscription-based play. Why not? Connected devices exist because of our laziness at the cost of sustainability, privacy, security, control. Apart from that they are a great deal!

acd 7y ago

Or you could get Vinyl player and à Classic amp. Plus sides does not get obselete. Doesn’t require software updates. Good stereo separation.

lawlorino 7y ago

This whole mess has got me thinking we'll start seeing more of this from other manufacturers of "smart home" technology in the future as they realise it's expensive to maintain legacy systems and force people to keep buying new stuff every few of years.

AndrewDucker 7y ago

I miss the days of standards. Having to buy into an ecosystem for this kind of thing is remarkably annoying. I want to be able to buy any "smart" speakers I like and have them work together through a common control system. Not be stuck at the mercy of individual company decisions.

givinguflac 7y ago

All you people suggesting chromecast as an audio solution are hilarious. It’s literally already in the unsupported state without updates that Sonos is going to do with products ten times as old. Wtf are you thinking? What is the difference in your mind between Sonos issuing bug fixes but not new features, and relying on chromecast audio which already stopped supports years ago? It’s absurd to complain and then choose a product with even less support which was dropped after like a year on the market

creaturemachine 7y ago
I'm not going to try to change your mind, but the chromecast audio was a great device that did exactly what it was meant for and nothing more. It didn't try to be a voice assistant, or control your lights, or pump ads in your face. It was also $35, which is pretty easy to throw away if and when it does get kill-switched by Google. When that happens I won't have to scrap my speakers and amp to chase the next streaming fad. If your crystal ball will choose the Sonos product that will still be supported in 10 years, then by all means go for it.
- givinguflac 7y ago
  You still don’t get it. It has ALREADY been “kill switched by google” and won’t get updates. It’s not even for sale! Why is chrome cast audio existing in that state (functional, no new features coming) acceptable, but the identical scenario is atrocious in your mind for Sonos?
  - creaturemachine 7y ago
    Because it just works, and I'll continue to get every cent of that $35 out of it until I can no longer. But seriously, enjoy your Sonos.
    - givinguflac 7y ago
      Sonos just works too and I’ll get every cent out of it as well. You think it’s coincidence google sold a cutthroat priced knock off of stolen Sonos tech? It’s literally what Sonos complains about in their lawsuit. Enjoy your product as well

Unklejoe 7y ago

You know what? I'm not going to let people gaslight me into believing that a stereo system needs to be integrated into the "cloud" and rely on some third party service to function. I have HiFi equipment literally from the 1970's and 1980's that will continue to operate well beyond the lifespan of any cloud-connected web-app-configured third-party-controlled WiFi Sonos type bullshit. It's not like there have been really ground breaking improves in speaker technology since the 80's anyway. Maybe some material improvements? I'm pretty sure my B&W speakers from the 80's can still hold their own against a decent stereo today... So what are you paying for? WiFi connectivity? Is that even really any more convenient? How about when it stops working? God, I'm triggered.

electrograv 7y ago
Yeah, there’s a good chance your B&W from the 80s sound better than any of Sonos’s speakers, and perhaps even better than modern B&W (since in modern B&W regressed to less neutral speakers to demo a more sparkly sound in showrooms, even though it limits their versatility of optimal music). I’m completely with you about disliking this modern trend of disposable and brick-able “internet required” speakers combined with modern software culture’s bizarre love for this “service” model where you are expected to perpetually accept OTA updates to keep using your product — mandatory OTA updates that are only good until the company behind them stops caring about old products they’re no longer making money off of, and decides to brick or cripple them. But regarding speakers: There have definitely been advancements in modern speaker design. Probably the biggest advancement is the state-of-the-art science of psycho-acoustics, developed by the Canadian National Research Council, and later continued by the research division of Harman International. The results of this research has directly lead to better speakers by Harman Intl. companies (Revel, JBL, etc.) and throughout much (but not all) of the speaker industry. Psycho-acoustics informs speaker engineers how to objectively measure flaws in a speaker in ways that go far beyond an old fashioned on-axis frequency response plot (which tells you nearly nothing): measuring FR and others in a densely sampled sphere surface around a speaker in an anechoic chamber has been shown to provide almost all the info you need to evaluate and design a speaker. The end result of this is pretty amazing speakers for great prices. A $500 pair of JBL 308p Mk II will probably get you 80% of the way to audio perfection for most people, for example. A Neumann KH120A ($1300/pair) will get you maybe 90% to perfection[1], though at the expense of some bass extension which you may want to complement with a subwoofer. And then we have some exotic speaker designs made affordable; for example, you can get speakers with a RAAL Ribbon Tweeter from Ascend Acoustics which will blow away any other modern speaker costing 2-3x as much. A $2k - $3k speaker and subwoofer system from Ascend+Rythmik[2] will probably get you to 99% of the best sound quality in the world. For example, I’ve owned Bowers and Wilkins 702 S2 before discovering the science and innovations of some exotic components like the RAAL tweeter. This research later lead me to buy Ascend Sierra RAAL Towers, which while costing significantly less than the B&W 702 S2 sound many times better. (Bowers and Wilkins intentionally choose to ignore the science). The difference (to my ears) is truly astounding — the Ascends are truly in another league of quality and realism. And, the versatility improvement of neutral (flat frequency response, on and off axis) speakers over colored ones is amazing if you like listening to a wide range of music. [1] https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-120-a-g https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-120-a-g The Neumann KH120A is probably the most amazing sounding compact speaker I have ever heard. It is seriously mind blowing how amazing such a small speaker sounds, and how much quality bass it can put out. It also has some of the most impressively perfect scientific measurements I’ve ever seen (which you can review on the link above in the “data and diagrams” section). The only thing better is Ascend’s speakers with RAAL tweeters, or Genelec pro monitors (which are quite overpriced). [2] Example: Ascend Sierra Luna pair + Rythmik F12 will probably get you to 98% of audio perfection: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/luna/luna.html http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/luna/... http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/f12se.html http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/f12se.htm...

doubtfuluser 7y ago

i Think what they misunderstood is really their customerbase. Mid level audiophiles who want comfortable music with good sound. I don’t care if I can talk with my speaker and order pizza or not. And my rough guess is, that just looking at the data their customers don’t change zones constantly but use a few very often. The strategy that they currently seem to follow is a strategy against service providers in the field of music, instead of working on what they actually sell: hardware. No matter how many blog posts will follow, as long as they don’t restart innovating in the interest of their core customers (mid audiophiles looking for comfort and usability to listen to music), they are losing me as a customer and i would bet they are also going to lose against the echo/HomePods and so on. Sad to see a once innovative company struggling because they try to win a box fight not realizing they are better at swimming.