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Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

2272 points by n1000 7y ago

jxdxbx 7y ago
A completely e2e encrypted backup system would have to include photos (current iPhone backups do not). But true encryption means that when customers forget their passwords, they lose their data. Already, people who don't use iCloud Photo Library and lose their phones, or forget their passwords, lose the photos that were on the phones. Anyway, I think the customer experience issues weigh pretty heavily here.
- whycombagator 7y ago
  Sure. But they could easily make it opt-in, hidden in the settings, with a warning/confirmation/etc so users know exactly what they are getting into.
hannibalhorn 7y ago
The iCloud security overview [1] says iCloud backups are encrypted "in transit" and "on server", but indeed doesn't say much about the encryption keys. There is "end-to-end encryption" on just a few items (iCloud keychain, WiFi passwords, etc.) 1. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
- exegete 7y ago
  Apple has a key for iCloud backups. [1] 1. https://fixitalready.eff.org/apple https://fixitalready.eff.org/apple
  - judge2020 7y ago
    That's generally what "on the server" means, it's only encrypted so their storage provider (shown to be GCP https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/26/17053496/apple-google-cloud-platform-icloud-confirmation https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/26/17053496/apple-google-clo... ) can't see their user data.
    - MereInterest 7y ago
      Maybe this is me being out of touch with modern deployment, but that is absolutely not what my impression of "on the server" means. My mental model is that of a client, whatever software is under my control, and a server, which is whatever my client connects to. "Encrypted on the server" then means that at no point is the plaintext data visible to any part of the server. If Apple splits up the server into a web server and a storage server, then uses "encrypted on the server" to refer only to the storage server, that is entirely disingenuous.
      - welder 7y ago
        There's a difference in encrypted data at rest vs. end-to-end client side encryption. Encrypted data at rest protects against stolen physical storage devices. Without access to decryption key stored on a separate machine, you're unable to read data on the storage device. Encryption at rest doesn't protect users from the company, since the company has the decryption key. It protects your data if the company misplaces the storage drive. It's common in corporate environments to check compliance boxes, which is why AWS offers encryption at rest: https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-amazon-s3-server-side-encryption/ https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-amazon-s3-server-side-e...
        MereInterest 7y ago
        True, but I read a big distinction between "encrypted at rest" and "encrypted on the server". Encrypted at rest has the implications that you state, being there to prevent somebody from walking off with a hard drive. Encrypted on the server implies that it is never unencrypted while on the server, and that any server-side computation is done solely through homomorphic encryption.
- nonninz 7y ago
  So not even photos are E2E encrypted? Nor Voice Memos, notes... nothing that is not written in the second list?
  - shuckles 7y ago
    That’s correct.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
minikites 7y ago
Some companies are better than others but there's absolutely no reason to believe any one of them would ever be on "your side" for any reason. You can vote for who makes decisions in government, but you can't vote for who makes decisions in companies.
- panarky 7y ago
  You vote every time you decide to buy or not to buy.
  - minikites 7y ago
    Tell me how I can choose to avoid buying fungible commodities from a particular source: suppose I want to avoid oil from BP because I disapprove of their handling of the Deepwater Horizon disaster. Avoiding BP-branded filling stations doesn't actually mean I'm not buying oil that came from BP. Or suppose I want to avoid wheat from Archer Daniels Midland, or crops sprayed with Monsanto products. The idea that capitalism provides meaningful choice is a joke.
    - parasubvert 7y ago
      The whole point of commodification (which arguably has little to do with capitalism - this process occurs in communism too) is to eliminate differentiation. Pecunia non olet ("money doesn't smell") is the motto of any commodity market for thousands of years. You might not like who you're buying from, but the POINT is fungibility: to completely remove all distinguishing characteristics, allow interchangeability, separate the value of the good from the value of the producer or seller. Early stage markets (usually aided by capitalism) on the other hand allows for disequilibrium, competition, and differentiation. At worst is how you get commodities repackaged as "artisanal bottled water" and "bone broth", and the like. But it would be the way to differentiate ethical oil (is there any?) from unethical. Also has been pretty successful at labelling GMO / non-GMO food. So, yeah, there are many cases where you do have meaningful choice.
  - inetknght 7y ago
metafunctor 7y ago
What the... I was under the impression that iCloud backups are end-to-end encrypted. This is a HUGE problem.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- parasubvert 7y ago
  iPhone/iPad backups stored locally on iTunes (or Finder, in Catalina) are end-to-end encrypted. iCloud backups always were encrypted based on a key derived from your iCloud account credentials, since the beginning...
  - mkagenius 7y ago
    Do they happen re-encrypt if I change my credentials a bunch of times or do they use my first ever password which was 123456?
    - lstamour 7y ago
      The point of key derivation is that it can use a key to encrypt that is in turn protected by another key/password. So the amount necessary to re-encrypt when your password changes is just the encryption applied to the key. A similar technique is used in local disk encryption, where you don’t need to spend hours re-encrypting your hard drive just because you’ve changed your local account password...
      - mkagenius 7y ago
        Then it must need my password to decrypt the key which was used to encrypt the raw data? What if I do not tell them my password, (assuming my password is one way hashed and stored) would that brick the key and in turn brick the data? Clearly I am missing something here.. Edit: or since it is "derived" and not really password which is used for encryption -- the derived thing could well be the hashed password. We are doomed. They might as well serial number their user and use that as key then. Never mind.
celeritascelery 7y ago
But it is nice that you have the option to not backup with iCloud. They are not storing the information whether you like it or not as a lot of companies do.
- andreasley 7y ago
  While Apple doesn't force its users to use iCloud, they also don't provide an alternative way to do full backups of iOS/iPadOS devices over a network. Yes, you can plug an iPhone into a Mac, but that doesn't scale.
  - proidgeree1 7y ago
    You can set local auto backup over wifi in itunes right?
    - vngzs 7y ago
      Here's a source indicating that from 2018: https://www.switchingtomac.com/tutorials/ios-tutorials/backup-your-ios-device-over-wifi-automatically/ https://www.switchingtomac.com/tutorials/ios-tutorials/backu...
    - damnyou 7y ago
      If you have a computer available that can run iTunes, sure.
    - andreasley 7y ago
      Yes, but that only works in local networks and after connecting via USB once – and the backup is always stored on a single computer. So it may be acceptable for personal usage, but not suited for an enterprise environment where you want to centrally manage hundreds of devices and provide some redundancy for your backup system.
      - proidgeree1 7y ago
        I guess I don’t understand this point. This is exactly what ios mdm backup is for. Relying on users backing up their personal icloud accounts for work seems highly problematic. If they are work icloud accounts... usb should not be a problem since you are probably provisioning the devices, and the itunes backup approach over your intranet seems actually ideal.
TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
This is also why you should never use cloud backups for iMessage or WhatsApp.
- jedieaston 7y ago
  This is disabled by default in iOS 13, to keep your messages secure (and because often times it doesn't work properly). You have to go into iCloud settings to turn it on. And then if you aren't using iCloud Backup, the key to your Messages backup is not stored by Apple, so they can't read it anyway (see https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303). For some reason, I doubt Google would do that.
- brenden2 7y ago
  I also have iMessage configured to delete messages after 30 days. I wish WhatsApp has this feature, but it does not, so I just periodically clear the history manually (which you can do in WhatsApp as well as Signal).
WilTimSon 7y ago
Reminds me of WhatsApp claiming it had encryption everywhere and then this [0] dropped. Except, in this case, I'm actually surprised. Didn't Apple publicly claim that it wouldn't bow down to any demands from the agencies? [0]: https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3061660/whatsapp-is-storing-unencrypted-backup-data-on-google-drive https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3061660/whatsapp-i...
- sneak 7y ago
  That was a coordinated PR move between Apple and the government. The US administration went into heavy damage control mode with the large tech companies after the Snowden revelations about PRISM et c.
  - snazz 7y ago
    Do you have any evidence for that? Sounds like a bit of a conspiracy theory to me.
    - sneak 7y ago
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2013/12/16/obama-to-meet-with-high-tech-ceos-on-healthcare-gov-nsa/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2013/12... Put yourself in their shoes. These companies stand to lose tens or perhaps hundreds of billions of dollars in foreign sales if there isn’t a counter-narrative to “well of course they spy for their national military, just look at these Snowden slides”. Making it seem like they are fighting for their customers at odds with the FBI is a perfect counterpoint. Meanwhile, it’s business as usual for US military intelligence, as evidenced by TFA. Excellent reporting!
    - tuldia 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#Responses_to_disclosures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#R...
- panarky 7y ago
  It's mostly marketing bullshit. Apple and Microsoft both tried to build ad businesses, but when they weren't as successful as Google, they turned lemons into lemonade by launching data privacy PR campaigns against Google. Meanwhile, Apple and Microsoft quietly censor their products in China, surrender data to Chinese authorities, and now we find Apple is intentionally leaving iCloud data insecure. Presumably Google was under the same pressure from US law enforcement, but somehow Google delivered end-to-end encrypted Android backups in October, 2018. And Google did it without all of Apple's self-congratulatory media hoopla. e2ee: https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-have-your-back-by.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-h... Third party security audit: https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/our-research/android-cloud-backuprestore/?research=Public+Reports https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/our-research/android-cloud-bac...
t4skf0rc3 7y ago
Privacy? Who needs it, amirite? I mean, I'm not up to anything illegal, and I don't actually care about people seeing my stuff, BUT... the concept as a whole of "government should have access to everything all the time, regardless of reasoning" does not sit well with me.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- EGreg 7y ago
  Nourong
- pfarrell 7y ago
  What happens when what is considered legal gets changed in the future?
- lostgame 7y ago
  You don't even, for instance, torrent? Movies, music? (You don't have to answer that. :P ) Ever pirate apps, even just to try before you buy? The point is, if someone from the law is interested in you, or suspects you of some grander illegal thing, a lot of us do illegal things that might just be a little less grand, and a lot of us have the digital equivalent of a broken taillight.
  - rrmm 7y ago
    There are plenty of more mundane misuses as well. Ex-spouse stalking, slighted lawman with a grudge, technician with a weird fetish. Sure there should be safeguards but they don't always work as well as you'd hope.
_salmon 7y ago
Just to be clear, if you do local backups to iTunes, you can encrypt those backups with a key you control
nittynits 7y ago
Shame on the FBI. Unfortunately the average Apple user won't understand or care about the implications. This is why I don't use ICloud or any cloud products. Apple are not nearly as bad as Google though. I stopped using GDrive about a year ago and I aim to be Google-free for 2020. I don't use Gmail for anything important any more.
CiPHPerCoder 7y ago
End-to-end backup encryption is hard. Apple had faced criticism from cryptographers for failing to implement it. https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2012/04/05/icloud-who-holds-key/ https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2012/04/05/icloud-w... The fact that they started working on the problem then abandoned it after the FBI complained is disappointing, especially to Apple consumers. But all it means is the status quo marches on. Headlines like this vindicate my decision to never purchase an Apple product.
- nexuist 7y ago
  >Headlines like this vindicate my decision to never purchase an Apple product. What else can you buy? Surely not Android...do you live without a smartphone (serious question, not judging)?
  - CiPHPerCoder 7y ago
    "Surely not Android...do you live without a smartphone (serious question, not judging)?" That's a very judgmental way to ask that question if you're trying to not be judging. My phone hardware would fall under the Android classification, but I run LineageOS. I wish I had more options, but we're stuck in a hellish duopoly for the time being.
    - tomaskafka 7y ago
      > but I run LineageOS With Google Play Services surveillance rootkit? :)
  - fsflover 7y ago
    Waiting for Librem 5.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
      Or the pinephone, which isn't as nice but is 1. way cheaper, and 2. shipping already.
ifthenelseend 7y ago
another reason to switch to android
- gruez 7y ago
  android does end to end backups out of the box?
  - trimbo 7y ago
    Yes https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-have-your-back-by.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-h...
louis-paul 7y ago
Easy fix: back up your iPhone locally on your computer instead of using iCloud: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203977#computer https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203977#computer The ambiguous position on true end-to-end encryption shows once again that Apple is in for the marketing (both to consumers—predatory and dangerous, and to engineering talent—dishonest). Same hypocrisy as on the China issue. Not that there is an easy solution when you are one of the biggest companies on the planet and that shareholders essentially expect you to grow forever while playing nice with everyone.
- nathancahill 7y ago
  Second step: Delete old backups https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204247#backups https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204247#backups
  - tghw 7y ago
    Eh, maybe, maybe not. What guarantees are there that the backups actually get deleted? Storage is cheap these days...
    - falcolas 7y ago
      If you delete your remote backups, they are likely be deleted, eventually. If you don't delete your remote backups, they won't be deleted. There's no business case for keeping backups around for Apple, unless they suddenly became an ad company and started mining your backups for personalization data.
      - iamtheworstdev 7y ago
        There is a business case - charge the FBI or any government agency for the cost of restoring/delivering it to them, or use the contents to improve any machine learning they are conducting, and I'm sure there are others. For the longest time Facebook couldn't actually delete photos that you requested the deletion of. They could remove it from indexes so it couldn't be found, but if you had the link it would still be available (akamai cdn). Because, to them, either the cost of the hosting was miniscule compared to the cost of writing the software to ensure things actually got purged from the CDN.
middleclick 7y ago
So what about all the privacy billboards, 'What happens on your phone stays on your phone?'. New version: 'What happens on your phone stays on your phone and unencrypted on the cloud'.
- marketingfool 7y ago
  Marketing is separate from facts. Non Apple fans have been screaming about Apple's Marketing being detached from reality.
snowwrestler 7y ago
I will not be surprised if further reporting points a finger at the influence of China as well. Apple already conceded to hosting Chinese iCloud data on Chinese servers, and that news came out about 2 years ago... which is also the timeframe reported for this decision to forego end-to-end encryption of iCloud backups. I'm guessing here, but I think it's safe to assume that China was not going to permit such encryption (for the same reason they insist on hosting the data) and thus to provide it for the U.S., Apple would have had to fork iCloud. Add in the political risk in the U.S. and you have a recipe for "maybe not."
mrtksn 7y ago
Apple has a list for that: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 These are end to end: Home data Health data (requires iOS 12 or later) iCloud Keychain (includes all of your saved accounts and passwords) Payment information QuickType Keyboard learned vocabulary (requires iOS 11 or later) Screen Time Siri information Wi-Fi passwords The messages also end to end but the backup contains the private key. The moral of the story is that if you want real protection, do local backups.
- novok 7y ago
  So do you need to decrypt the backup of your iMessages to get to the private key inside of it, or can apple see your private iMessage keys in the backup without needing to decrypt anything?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ghostpepper 7y ago
  > The messages also end to end but the backup contains the private key. Should this even be called E2E? I suppose it is, technically, but clearly not in spirit.
  - trillic 7y ago
    It is if you backup your device to your Mac or PC...or don't back it up at all.
- snowwrestler 7y ago
  I thought iMessage private keys are somehow based on data in the "secure enclave" chip, and thus not able to be stored in the cloud. It's my understanding that Apple could add new "devices" to listen in on future conversations, but it can't read iMessage conversations in transit between existing devices. It can also read iCloud backups of conversation content, which are created by the client device after decrypting the message. But that's not the same as storing the private key itself in the backup. Happy to have my understanding updated...
aloukissas 7y ago
Which is exactly why I use Signal exclusively.
- newscracker 7y ago
  Signal prohibits backing up chats on iOS. So there’s no question of information leaking from a backup when there’s no way to create it.
  - cosmiccatnap 7y ago
    Sounds like another reason iOS is no longer the choice for security...
  - aloukissas 7y ago
    For me, not being able to back up chats is a feature. It even warns you if you download an attachment (e.g. an image) to local storage.
m3kw9 7y ago
Just back up on your pc and select encrypt and not use iCloud, but that is a huge hassle
m3kw9 7y ago
To be fair to Apple, if you believe Apples privacy policy, being able to access it, theyliky won’t access it and sell your data to advertising Agencies.
clarkmoody 7y ago
Beyond HN and tech circles, is there any detectable groundswell of demand for privacy? When you talk with friends & family about privacy, does anyone care? When average people care about privacy, the large players will respond. Until then, pressure from the state can be accommodated without irking customers, so Big Tech will play along.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  I seem to recall when Jennifer Lawrence (a famous actress you may have heard of) had her icloud storage hacked and leaked all over the internet, there was a bit of a murmur online and even offline about it.
- dudus 7y ago
  General public are generally ignorant about risks in the tech they use. That doesn't mean they don't care about their privacy. There's an assumption that laws and safeguards are in place so technology in general can be trusted and transacted on. In other words they trust in us "the tech circle" to police ourselves and assert security and privacy. It's not circle jerk about privacy. It's a duty we have by being in the frontlines.
  - freehunter 7y ago
    Exactly. The general public is never going to say “I demand end to end encryption and complete privacy” because they don’t know how all the tech works. But they’re surely going to expect that their private text messages are private and their private pictures are private. People expect privacy as a default and sharing as an option, and they rely on the “experts” (tech companies, lawmakers, etc) to help them.
    - reroute1 7y ago
      Not exactly. Some people may not understand and also not care and I'm sure there are many many people who that fits. When you're talking about surveillance level vs. someone hacking your iPhone that's not really a comparison. Of course people don't want their private messages stolen, but that's not really the case with most surveillance. Not that I'm in favor of it necessarily but there are merits. Surveillance and privacy aren't the same thing but this is the FBI and people are bringing up snowden. In general I think you're right privacy is just expected for personal messages, but at some point when it's just data I don't think most people care, and may in fact support some level of surveillance.
classified 7y ago
Surprise! The "we value your privacy" statement is a lie, as with any other US company.
hartator 7y ago
Are the iMessages in an iCloud backup encrypted or not? As of now. It seems actually unclear.
- snazz 7y ago
  Yes, but the key is stored in your iCloud backup if you use it. As soon as you disable iCloud backups it will roll the key for iMessage and they will be effectively E2E encrypted. When Messages in iCloud is enabled, iMessage, Business Chat, text (SMS), and MMS messages are removed from the user’s existing iCloud Backup, and are instead stored in an end-to-end encrypted CloudKit container for Messages. The user’s iCloud Backup retains a key to that container. If the user subsequently disables iCloud Backup, that container’s key is rolled, the new key is stored only in iCloud Keychain (inaccessible to Apple and any third parties), and new data written to the container can’t be decrypted with the old container key. https://support.apple.com/guide/security/icloud-backup-contents-sec2c21e7f49/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/icloud-backup-conte...
  - zzzcpan 7y ago
    > Yes, but the key is stored in your iCloud backup if you use it. As soon as you disable iCloud backups it will roll the key for iMessage and they will be effectively E2E encrypted. Assuming this is true, you still don't know what people on the other end will do, meaning it is never actually E2E encrypted.
    - snazz 7y ago
      E2E usually means from endpoint device 1 (my iPhone) to endpoint device 2 (my friend’s iPhone). What the other person will do with it doesn’t factor into the conventional definition of E2E.
      - zzzcpan 7y ago
        No, conventional definition is actually both: from endpoint device 1 to endpoint device 2 and from endpoint device 2 to endpoint device 1. If device 2 has backups in question enabled, there is no E2E anymore.
turk73 7y ago
the great trick these companies and the government played on us was "You will be secure in your papers and effects but not ones located outside your home" so cloud backups were marketed just as the courts decided that they could invade your cloud data. It was a brilliant move towards mass surveillance. I don't like how this is going...
macinjosh 7y ago
As a big fan of the Mac and iPhone this is incredibly disappointing. I always assumed the privacy situation with Apple was candy-coated but I didn't think they were this spineless.
- marketingfool 7y ago
  How can you be a big fan of a product knowing that it's full of lies? Serious question.
cr0sh 7y ago
Between things like this, and the shenanigans Google pulls (with Android, the store, developers, and other things), I'm quickly going in a different direction. My ultimate plan is to build my own phone; yes, I'll still be stuck with a carrier (I use t-mobile, and I haven't had a problem with them over 10+ years I've used them), and the hardware won't be completely "open source", but the software and OS will at least be what I make of it myself. In the meantime, I'll be playing with one of the Pine64 phones; hopefully it will give me most if not all of everything I want and need, and maybe I can help with bug testing or perhaps software development? At any rate, it won't be Apple or Google. There are times that I have when I sometimes think to myself that going back to simple email on a text screen, and not much else, would be a better thing than what the web has become. Maybe go back to BBS's over ssh or something? "Dial In" using my TRS-80 Model 100 "laptop" and move out to the boonies...
- gonational 7y ago
  It sounds like an awesome idea, and I’ve considered ordering a pine phone for the same reason. I don’t know why anyone would down vote your comment. On “hacker news” it’s no longer considered cool to hack together your own tech? When did HN become a corporate bootlicking dump?
newscracker 7y ago
Is Apple’s privacy white paper dealing with fats on iCloud just an eyewash now? > Instead of protecting all of iCloud with end-to-end encryption, Apple has shifted to focus on protecting some of the most sensitive user information, such as saved passwords and health data. > But backed-up contact information and texts from iMessage, WhatsApp and other encrypted services remain available to Apple employees and authorities. Way to confuse laypeople with promises of security and data privacy. If Apple had concerns about users losing the key, why not implement it similar to two factor authentication on Apple IDs where Apple also provides the recovery codes (and additionally disallow any other mechanism of recovery)?
djrogers 7y ago
Another case of a headline not being supported by the story: “ Reuters could not determine why exactly Apple dropped the plan. “Legal killed it, for reasons you can imagine,” another former Apple employee said he was told, without any specific mention of why the plan was dropped or if the FBI was a factor in the decision.” And further on: “ However, a former Apple employee said it was possible the encryption project was dropped for other reasons, such as concern that more customers would find themselves locked out of their data more often.” So 4 of the 6 sources were speculating (FBI), and one actively admits they don’t know the reason, but the lede says 6 sources confirmed this. Hmmm...
- chias 7y ago
  In fairness, the title does not say that Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups because FBI complained :P
  - slimginz 7y ago
    I know you're being cheeky and pedantic, but that's exactly the spin the title was trying to go for in order to get clicks. While not "technically" wrong, it's still pretty dishonest imo.
    - wheelie_boy 7y ago
      "Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after release of 'National Treasure 2', starring Nicholas Cage"
      - chias 7y ago
        I would read the hell out of that article.
- make3 7y ago
  am HN mod should change the title
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
halis 7y ago
Uhhhhhh....wait waht?
matt-attack 7y ago
So now that iTunes is gone, how does one do a local iPhone backup?
- snazz 7y ago
  It shows up in Finder. Most of the iTunes functionality is still there but split up into more logical places.
- thoughtsimple 7y ago
  It's part of the Finder now. Same UI (and probably code) just doesn't come as part of a monolithic application (but now part of a even more monolithic OS).
j45 7y ago
Might be a good reason to look into storage as an appliance. Personal NAS' (Synology, QNAP) are quite serviceable.
bronco21016 7y ago
I believe this has been the case for sometime hasn’t it? I vaguely remember reporting indicating this was true during the San Bernardino case and that Apple handed over that backup. Either way I do remember reading the Apple law enforcement guidelines a year or two ago and this was the case. iCloud data is not secure from law enforcement. My project list has implementing a WiFi backup Windows/iTunes VM for this specific case. Does anyone know how iOS backups will be handled on personal PCs once iTunes is discontinued?
- mindajar 7y ago
  Device backups are handled by Finder in the post-iTunes world, at least on the Mac. I think iTunes is still a thing on Windows?
  - bronco21016 7y ago
    Ah I see the distinction in a few articles now. Thanks!
skandl 7y ago
Apple has an opportunity to stand separate as a leader in user privacy first. But to do so means constantly standing up to government(s).
- marketingfool 7y ago
  It literally doesn't matter. You are talking about their latest ad campaign. Apple internal is complete detached from the commercials you see. It's about sales, not teaching users.
justapassenger 7y ago
Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, about how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. While iPhone itself is pretty secure as a device phone (and Apple makes sure to remind you about that in each ad, public speaking, attacks on competitors, etc), as an ecosystem it's not secure. And it's like that on purpose - there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud. You have to be a tech person to know how to keep an iPhone secure. Average Joe buys iPhone and pays for iCloud. They Apple first $1k to get (on top of other things) a secure device, and then they Apple monthly fee to give Apple all their data and make insecure. Pretty genius business strategy.
- terminaljunkid 7y ago
  That meme should have been diminished earlier. People should understand while Google saves much data within itself, Apple shares it with advertising partners. By the way, People have come to hate Google all the way for some advertising and easily switch-able data collection. But one should at same time hesitate to vote to apple with their wallets, they are a monster company which patents rounded corners of phones and things like optional chaining in Swift. That just goes unnoticed in circles like HN. IMO apple has always been more evil than Google.
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  Seriously - a big deal to me for sure.
- wnevets 7y ago
  >Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, Probably not. The keyboards on their laptops are barely functional but it doesn't stop people from saying how great they are.
  - 77pt77 7y ago
    I'm always reminded of The Onion's prophetic sketches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA
_bxg1 7y ago
> aboyt how much Apple cares about users No company cares about anything. A company is not a person. Apple, because of its privacy-marketing, is incentivized to be the privacy player in the market. But only so far as consumers keep them honest about it. They got away with this loophole because it stayed under the radar; if it gets enough attention and enough customers show that it matters to them, it could change. On the other hand, it's possible that because we have a smartphones duopoly, Apple only needs to maintain a position where people will say "well at least it's not as bad as Google". I'm upset about this personally, but I'm not ditching my iPhone. Of course, this does cement my decision to never pay for iCloud, for what that's worth (much less, but not nothing).
- giancarlostoro 7y ago
  > On the other hand, it's possible that because we have a smartphones duopoly, Apple only needs to maintain a position where people will say "well at least it's not as bad as Google". I'm upset about this personally, but I'm not ditching my iPhone. Of course, this does cement my decision to never pay for iCloud, for what that's worth (much less, but not nothing). Agreed, and I am likely going away from Android and into iOS for my next phone. It's still a setting you can change so it's not forced into their cloud thankfully. I wish Microsoft hadn't backed out. A Surface Phone would be kind of cool. I guess too much stigma about Microsoft has held them back from being competitive. I think they shoulda waited for their Microsoft Store to grow much more organically, then release the Windows Mobile phones. The other issue is Google's agreements.
  - berkes 7y ago
    I'd argue that Android, without the Google stuff, is still the best option if you care about privacy and security. This is not accessible for average Joe, but I'm pretty certain the majority of readers here can use the tools to load an alternative ROM. That you can enable and use F-droid just fine. And are knowledgeable enough to know what apps to avoid.
    - mtgx 7y ago
GeekyBear 7y ago
>there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud. Turn off iCloud and do local encrypted backups to your PC or Mac. This works over your wifi network (if you prefer wireless charging at home) or via a cable connection.
- justapassenger 7y ago
  It’s not only way more friction than iCloud, but you’d be surprised how many people nowadays don’t even own a PC or Mac. In my wife’s family 60% of people only have phones, tablets and smart TVs. They use laptops/desktops only at work.
  - simonh 7y ago
    It's a shame, but I don't see how this is a knock against Apple. They offer a basic service to backup your device on their infrastructure. If you want better/more you have to provide the infrastructure yourself, and they support several common permutations of suitable infrastructure. I think that's reasonable.
  - deleted 7y ago
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  - __david__ 7y ago
    On a daily basis there’s no more friction than iCloud. My phone backs up to my computer over WiFi once a day when it gets plugged in for charging. I don’t ever think about it—it just happens.
  - ksec 7y ago
    We Need iOS TimeCapsule.
    - jonnytran 7y ago
      We need Time Capsule. Period. It was discontinued in 2018. [1] I am still so sad about this. 1: https://www.macworld.com/article/3269361/apple-discontinues-the-airport-time-capsule-airport-extreme-and-airport-express.html https://www.macworld.com/article/3269361/apple-discontinues-...
tomaskafka 7y ago
Two things: 1) There is no way Apple would be allowed to sell iPhones in China, without China government having access to anything. So, I assume that Apple users in China have e2e encrypted exactly nothing. 2) I have a strong suspicion that those 'enter your Apple ID password because your account needs it' message really means 'a government has requested your data and even though it's encrypted, we will nag you about entering a password, and if you give it, you're a free game'. I don't blame Apple for this, I'm sure they're doing what they can, but when a government says 'give us this data', they can't not comply and stay in business. And a whole point of a company is staying in the business. Vote responsibly - companies can't protect us from a government we have put into power.
awinter-py 7y ago
I don't think we understand yet how to model the impacts of breaches on products. Cambridge Analytica didn't ruin facebook, but it did enable CCPA, and it probably changed how FB users think of / trust the product. Ashley Madison / equifax breaches completely ruined their cos. Snowden disclosures were a weird middle case that meant all things to all people. Weakening aapl's privacy claims may not matter to a post-truth public but I suspect it will further drive demand for actual consumer privacy products, when and if they enter the market.
sparker72678 7y ago
I wish Data Protection (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/uikit/protecting_the_user_s_privacy/encrypting_your_app_s_files https://developer.apple.com/documentation/uikit/protecting_t...) would allow app developers to use a locally-derived key to secure app data. Then, even in iCloud Backups, you'd still not have the key to decrypt specific app data without having unlocked the device. I realize you could do this right now (in theory) with your own encryption solution and Keychain, but a first party solution that's as easy use as the Data Protection features/apis would be really nice. Apple has plenty of data that I wish was E2E encrypted, but if many/most of my 3rd party apps had their own data locked, that would go a long way in the right direction.
frankzen 7y ago
Great. More identity theft for the masses!
skrowl 7y ago
For comparison, Google end-to-end encrypts Android backups with your lock screen PIN/pattern (which isn't known to Google). Source - https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-have-your-back-by.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-h...
- Shank 7y ago
  Offline attacks for a motivated adversary, like NSA, are trivial on low strength security measures, like a standard PIN, numeric only PIN, or pattern. Only a strong passphrase would really help you.
  - deleted 7y ago
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  - modeless 7y ago
    This is false. This concern is addressed in the second paragraph of the linked article: > this passcode-protected key material is encrypted to a Titan security chip on our datacenter floor. The Titan chip is configured to only release the backup decryption key when presented with a correct claim derived from the user's passcode. Because the Titan chip must authorize every access to the decryption key, it can permanently block access after too many incorrect attempts at guessing the user’s passcode, thus mitigating brute force attacks. The limited number of incorrect attempts is strictly enforced by a custom Titan firmware that cannot be updated without erasing the contents of the chip. By design, this means that no one (including Google) can access a user's backed-up application data without specifically knowing their passcode.
    - ran3824692 7y ago
      But the source code of many important parts of android are nonfree, so google can update it to send your cleartext password and you would never know.
      - modeless 7y ago
parliament32 7y ago
The ecosystem is incredibly insecure, despite what Apple's marketing department wants you to think. More than anything I'm surprised at how often their advertising talking points are parroted in tech circles, like here on HN.. in any thread hinting at Google vs Apple you're bound to find a long comment chain about how Apple is "secure" and "privacy oriented" and "cares about their users". Not that Google is any better, but it makes me wonder whether it's just astroturfing or if their marketing is actually working.
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  It all depends on your threat model. For the average person I’m not worried about the relatively unlikely occurrence of the government accessing their backups. I’m much more worried about the more likely occurrence of local malware or ad tracking by malicious apps including from big names like Facebook & other social media companies, and in that instance Apple is still ahead as the OS restricts what apps can do a lot more than Android, the App Store is more curated against malware, etc.
  - parliament32 7y ago
    Here's a threat model for you: how fucked would you be if your iCloud backups suddenly became searchable online? Ever say anything bad about your boss or company in an convo? Ever taken any photos you wouldn't want released? Ever downloaded any files you wouldn't want public? The agencies have proven time and time again that they're pretty terrible at keeping secrets (see: all the leaks, data breaches, TSA master keys, etc). As long as they have a back door, it's inevitable that it'll happen -- it's effectively a ticking time bomb. When I send a message over Signal, I can trust that it'll be kept private, barring some truly extraordinary incident. With Apple, it's kept accessible by design (storing the encryption key with the encrypted backup? really?). It's not about the government accessing my messages, because I really don't care all that much, it's that I don't trust them to keep secrets. If the government has access to something of yours you must assume it'll eventually be made public... whether or not you're okay with that is up to you.
fortran77 7y ago
Apple has done a great job convincing otherwise "progressive" people that one of the world's richest companies is the underdog who's fighting for you!
kohtatsu 7y ago
PSA: libimobiledevice exists and supports native encrypted backup/restores for iPhones using the idevicebackup2 utility. You can also disable iCloud backups from there for fun. https://www.libimobiledevice.org/ https://www.libimobiledevice.org/ Not excusing Apple. This is a disgrace, first in China now here.
- kohtatsu 7y ago
  With the ifuse utility you can even mount a subset of your iPhone's storage as a FUSE filesystem. (If it's jailbroken you can mount all of it) Doing so I was able to read the SQLite database Photos uses on my girlfriend's iPhone to migrate only photos she had favourited to her new phone; she hated the idea of moving them all over so much that she was ready to let the best ones perish.
someonehere 7y ago
Apple is not 100% secured against SIM swapping. There’s an option to have an SMS sent with your 2FA code as another option. I know because I’ve done this before and was wondering when Apple would let you use a hardware token or virtual MFA as an option like in my Google account.
ganzuul 7y ago
Dell, which started as a military supplier, encrypts their cloud storage to avoid liability. I wonder what Apple is liable for in light of this.
xpq 7y ago
oh I'm deeply disapointed. I payed so much premium for quality and privacy and this is my outcome.
rm_-rf_ 7y ago
I've seen the list that Apple provides on their web site that lists the things that are end to end encrypted, but what about "Locked" Notes? My understanding is that encryption is happening on the client-side and that you need to enter your password to unlock.
herf 7y ago
Is there a good design that lets someone forget their password and restore their backup (without a recovery key somewhere, like on an old device?) If you forget a local iTunes backup password, there is no way to fix it.
nabla9 7y ago
What level decision this is? a) Is this just tactical move? Apple might choose to delay it's plans In effort to avoid confronting the current administration and wait for more reasonable one. b) Is this permanent change of strategy? Giving up.
deftturtle 7y ago
I'm so done with Apple, but more generally, with cell-phones. I was very excited to have Signal available back in 2015, but when I learned about cellular baseband processors and DMA attacks, I realized the whole smartphone stack is insecure. We can't audit anything in our phones, down to the cellular chip. Even if our phones were 100% trustworthy, they are triangulated by cell towers thousands of times per day. Location tracking can only be avoided by: 1: Not owning a phone. 2: Powering off your device and keeping in a Faraday cage while not using. Tempting to own a cute little purse that blocks phone signals, but do I really need a cell-phone on my body, 24/7? If I evaluate the overall pros & cons of my cellphone, it has been overwhelmingly negative. I've had a phone since August 2014, when I went to college. Before that, I would text with my parents' phones. Here are the top negative things that have happened due to using a phone: 1. Miscommunication, isolation, social anxiety due to social media and texting. Talking in person is so much better. And what about the hours and hours of snapchatting, so pointless and sad looking back. 2. False sense of security, thinking you can know what's going on, help people, intervene when necessary (friend sexual assault stuff at parties). What about when their phone dies? It made me wish we had landlines, or that I had been there. If I didn't have a cell phone, I don't think I would've left the party. I would've stayed and kept watch. 3. Poor posture, lack of sleep, constant exposure to blue light (who knows if the light is really bad), etc. 4. Missed connections by having my head in my phone all the time in public. 5. The US government has a total map of my life since August 2014, even though I have sent thousands of encrypted messages and hundreds of encrypted phone calls. 6. Less time available each day. I have spent typically 1-3 hours per day on my phone since I got one, about 1,980 days ago. This amounts to probably 4,000 to 6,000 hours, or about 170 to 250 days. In other words, about 1/8th of my life since 2014 has been dedicated to bullshit technology. Here are some positives: 1. I have lots of photos that would otherwise have required a camera. But I have dozens of film cameras and a few digital ones, and there's no reason to shoot photos on such a tiny format. Good luck printing cell-photos beyond 5x7 or even 8x10. 2. I occasionally talk to family. This could be accomplished with a landline. Maybe I've missed some things, and maybe I'm being pessimistic, but the reality is that I've lost lots of sleep and experienced more problems with interpersonal relationships as a result of having a phone. It's likely that not owning a phone would expose me to a new class of problems, but I've decided to get rid of my phone. I'm in the process of switching accounts and removing 2FA, so I don't need cell service. Once I get there, I'm planning to write a little blog post about it. After having a baby, it's become clear that a phone is sucking my life away, and I need to be present with my family. Hope to have this all dealt with in the next week or two.
jbverschoor 7y ago
Time to disable iCloud backup and cancel my iCloud subscription.
- christefano 7y ago
  Samesies :(
scarface74 7y ago
394 comments based on a rumor from an anonymous employee? Is this what HN considers "news"?
yanks215 7y ago
When will a startup enter into this space with a privacy focused smartphone? Does this already exist, and is it good? If not, why all the complaints and why hasn't someone entered the market? Obviously startup costs will be high, but there will certainly be funding available for this market, right?
- _underfl0w_ 7y ago
  Pine64 and Purism make devices that might fit that bill, but keep in mind that the devices may not be as user-friendly in their current state as you might hope for. There's still a lot of rough edges, I hear.
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musicale 7y ago
If this is true it is incredibly disapppointing.
m0zg 7y ago
Well, that's one way to force Apple to reverse a stupid decision. Looking forward to backups encrypted so well Christopher Wray would have a nervous breakdown, in the next iOS update.
notadoc 7y ago
Is anyone surprised by this? It could be for many reasons too, including average people forgetting iCloud passwords and wanting their data back. Does Apple unlock an iCloud backup in that situation? Perhaps a pro-privacy compromise would be for Apple to offer the feature but have it turned off by default, which means 99.99% of users won't ever change that.
caf 7y ago
It turns over data more often in response to secret U.S. intelligence court directives, which sought content from more than 18,000 accounts in the first half of 2019, the most recently reported six-month period. When you think about it, that volume is staggering. 36,000 iDevice-using intelligence targets every year? Imagine the amount of analyst time required just to go through 36,000 iCloud backups every year!
- jamilbk 7y ago
  Really makes you wonder what the criteria is for being investigated. Maybe I’m naive, but I find it hard to believe that there are 36,000 yearly iCloud accounts with probable cause to be tied to terrorism activity and/or national security matters, especially if that’s only in the US. As someone with a (half) Middle Eastern heritage and name (but born and raised in the US) I’ve experienced my fair share of nuanced discrimination at airports and one weird situation with what I assume was the FBI. There’s always the ignorant TSA agent who raises an eyebrow when you report coming back from the Middle East... like why would anyone ever travel there if it weren’t for terrorism? I’m a pretty average techie so I’m not too worried about anyone going through my iCloud backups, but I feel like there should be some more transparency around this stuff. I feel like if you’re secretly investigated but discovered to be innocent, shouldn’t you deserve to know you were spied on? I guess that’s what FOIA requests are for. The war on terrorism feels like a game of whack-a-mole sometimes.
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diebeforei485 7y ago
I don't think Apple ever claimed iCloud backups are end-to-end encrypted (it is encrypted at rest, but not end-to-end). But I can see how many users would assume that, given Apple's dishonest/brash marketing about how "what happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone".
diebeforei485 7y ago
Apple should allow third-party backup solutions. Backblaze is the option I would use if I had the choice, because they already support end-to-end encryption (end-to-end does have a downside: losing the encryption password means losing the data. Most people would make this tradeoff, but many HN readers would).
xp84 7y ago
Unpopular opinion: We users are better off if Apple is "compromising" on something like this at the stage we're in now - especially since nobody forces you to use iCloud Backups - than we'll be when/if the US gov makes Apple an offer it can't refuse and forces a real backdoor master-key on the whole system top to bottom. Assumption: That not going full encrypted backups will prevent the government from having the political capital to enact a "crackdown" forcing a backdoor on the devices, iMessage, etc.
- xvector 7y ago
  That is not the issue. Their deceptive marketing is the issue.
pedramnegahdar 7y ago
Pathetic.
matheusmoreira 7y ago
So what if the FBI complains? If anything, that's a sign they're doing things correctly.
scarface74 7y ago
Does anyone who knows anything about Apple think they would approach the FBI before creating a new feature?
jason0597 7y ago
Data shouldn't be end-to-end encrypted. It should just be end-to-server encrypted, without the server having an ability to decrypt your data.
I_am_tiberius 7y ago
I was moments away from ordering a mac book 16" when this got published. Waiting for the new xps 13 development edition now.
bilekas 7y ago
Well the Fappening can disgrace and expose millions of people to extortion etc. But the FBI can see everything so thats okay.
fulldecent2 7y ago
The small bit of iCloud E2EE which Apple allows (for health data, passwords and Mac-to-Mac clipboard sharing) is using your iPhone's 6-digit passcode and your Mac's admin password. That means that Apple can also now perform an offline brute-force attack against your file vault password. This makes even your offline devices less secure.
fulldecent2 7y ago
Even if you want nothing to do with iCould, you must still enable it for these features: - Mac-to-Mac copy/paste (shared clipboard, continuity) - iPad sidecar Once you enable it, it immediately begins uploading your contacts, photos and passwords to Apple. Then you need to disable those specific things. Even after you delete those things, every app on your phone can silently and without your explicit permission, start loading data into iCloud.

2272 points by n1000 7y ago

A completely e2e encrypted backup system would have to include photos (current iPhone backups do not). But true encryption means that when customers forget their passwords, they lose their data. Already, people who don't use iCloud Photo Library and lose their phones, or forget their passwords, lose the photos that were on the phones. Anyway, I think the customer experience issues weigh pretty heavily here.

whycombagator 7y ago
Sure. But they could easily make it opt-in, hidden in the settings, with a warning/confirmation/etc so users know exactly what they are getting into.

hannibalhorn 7y ago

The iCloud security overview [1] says iCloud backups are encrypted "in transit" and "on server", but indeed doesn't say much about the encryption keys. There is "end-to-end encryption" on just a few items (iCloud keychain, WiFi passwords, etc.) 1. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

exegete 7y ago
Apple has a key for iCloud backups. [1] 1. https://fixitalready.eff.org/apple https://fixitalready.eff.org/apple
- judge2020 7y ago
  That's generally what "on the server" means, it's only encrypted so their storage provider (shown to be GCP https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/26/17053496/apple-google-cloud-platform-icloud-confirmation https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/26/17053496/apple-google-clo... ) can't see their user data.
  - MereInterest 7y ago
    Maybe this is me being out of touch with modern deployment, but that is absolutely not what my impression of "on the server" means. My mental model is that of a client, whatever software is under my control, and a server, which is whatever my client connects to. "Encrypted on the server" then means that at no point is the plaintext data visible to any part of the server. If Apple splits up the server into a web server and a storage server, then uses "encrypted on the server" to refer only to the storage server, that is entirely disingenuous.
    - welder 7y ago
      There's a difference in encrypted data at rest vs. end-to-end client side encryption. Encrypted data at rest protects against stolen physical storage devices. Without access to decryption key stored on a separate machine, you're unable to read data on the storage device. Encryption at rest doesn't protect users from the company, since the company has the decryption key. It protects your data if the company misplaces the storage drive. It's common in corporate environments to check compliance boxes, which is why AWS offers encryption at rest: https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-amazon-s3-server-side-encryption/ https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-amazon-s3-server-side-e...
      - MereInterest 7y ago
        True, but I read a big distinction between "encrypted at rest" and "encrypted on the server". Encrypted at rest has the implications that you state, being there to prevent somebody from walking off with a hard drive. Encrypted on the server implies that it is never unencrypted while on the server, and that any server-side computation is done solely through homomorphic encryption.
nonninz 7y ago
So not even photos are E2E encrypted? Nor Voice Memos, notes... nothing that is not written in the second list?
- shuckles 7y ago
  That’s correct.
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minikites 7y ago

Some companies are better than others but there's absolutely no reason to believe any one of them would ever be on "your side" for any reason. You can vote for who makes decisions in government, but you can't vote for who makes decisions in companies.

panarky 7y ago
You vote every time you decide to buy or not to buy.
- minikites 7y ago
  Tell me how I can choose to avoid buying fungible commodities from a particular source: suppose I want to avoid oil from BP because I disapprove of their handling of the Deepwater Horizon disaster. Avoiding BP-branded filling stations doesn't actually mean I'm not buying oil that came from BP. Or suppose I want to avoid wheat from Archer Daniels Midland, or crops sprayed with Monsanto products. The idea that capitalism provides meaningful choice is a joke.
  - parasubvert 7y ago
    The whole point of commodification (which arguably has little to do with capitalism - this process occurs in communism too) is to eliminate differentiation. Pecunia non olet ("money doesn't smell") is the motto of any commodity market for thousands of years. You might not like who you're buying from, but the POINT is fungibility: to completely remove all distinguishing characteristics, allow interchangeability, separate the value of the good from the value of the producer or seller. Early stage markets (usually aided by capitalism) on the other hand allows for disequilibrium, competition, and differentiation. At worst is how you get commodities repackaged as "artisanal bottled water" and "bone broth", and the like. But it would be the way to differentiate ethical oil (is there any?) from unethical. Also has been pretty successful at labelling GMO / non-GMO food. So, yeah, there are many cases where you do have meaningful choice.
- inetknght 7y ago

metafunctor 7y ago

What the... I was under the impression that iCloud backups are end-to-end encrypted. This is a HUGE problem.

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parasubvert 7y ago
iPhone/iPad backups stored locally on iTunes (or Finder, in Catalina) are end-to-end encrypted. iCloud backups always were encrypted based on a key derived from your iCloud account credentials, since the beginning...
- mkagenius 7y ago
  Do they happen re-encrypt if I change my credentials a bunch of times or do they use my first ever password which was 123456?
  - lstamour 7y ago
    The point of key derivation is that it can use a key to encrypt that is in turn protected by another key/password. So the amount necessary to re-encrypt when your password changes is just the encryption applied to the key. A similar technique is used in local disk encryption, where you don’t need to spend hours re-encrypting your hard drive just because you’ve changed your local account password...
    - mkagenius 7y ago
      Then it must need my password to decrypt the key which was used to encrypt the raw data? What if I do not tell them my password, (assuming my password is one way hashed and stored) would that brick the key and in turn brick the data? Clearly I am missing something here.. Edit: or since it is "derived" and not really password which is used for encryption -- the derived thing could well be the hashed password. We are doomed. They might as well serial number their user and use that as key then. Never mind.

celeritascelery 7y ago

But it is nice that you have the option to not backup with iCloud. They are not storing the information whether you like it or not as a lot of companies do.

andreasley 7y ago
While Apple doesn't force its users to use iCloud, they also don't provide an alternative way to do full backups of iOS/iPadOS devices over a network. Yes, you can plug an iPhone into a Mac, but that doesn't scale.
- proidgeree1 7y ago
  You can set local auto backup over wifi in itunes right?
  - vngzs 7y ago
    Here's a source indicating that from 2018: https://www.switchingtomac.com/tutorials/ios-tutorials/backup-your-ios-device-over-wifi-automatically/ https://www.switchingtomac.com/tutorials/ios-tutorials/backu...
  - damnyou 7y ago
    If you have a computer available that can run iTunes, sure.
  - andreasley 7y ago
    Yes, but that only works in local networks and after connecting via USB once – and the backup is always stored on a single computer. So it may be acceptable for personal usage, but not suited for an enterprise environment where you want to centrally manage hundreds of devices and provide some redundancy for your backup system.
    - proidgeree1 7y ago
      I guess I don’t understand this point. This is exactly what ios mdm backup is for. Relying on users backing up their personal icloud accounts for work seems highly problematic. If they are work icloud accounts... usb should not be a problem since you are probably provisioning the devices, and the itunes backup approach over your intranet seems actually ideal.

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago

This is also why you should never use cloud backups for iMessage or WhatsApp.

jedieaston 7y ago
This is disabled by default in iOS 13, to keep your messages secure (and because often times it doesn't work properly). You have to go into iCloud settings to turn it on. And then if you aren't using iCloud Backup, the key to your Messages backup is not stored by Apple, so they can't read it anyway (see https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303). For some reason, I doubt Google would do that.
brenden2 7y ago
I also have iMessage configured to delete messages after 30 days. I wish WhatsApp has this feature, but it does not, so I just periodically clear the history manually (which you can do in WhatsApp as well as Signal).

WilTimSon 7y ago

Reminds me of WhatsApp claiming it had encryption everywhere and then this [0] dropped. Except, in this case, I'm actually surprised. Didn't Apple publicly claim that it wouldn't bow down to any demands from the agencies? [0]: https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3061660/whatsapp-is-storing-unencrypted-backup-data-on-google-drive https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3061660/whatsapp-i...

sneak 7y ago
That was a coordinated PR move between Apple and the government. The US administration went into heavy damage control mode with the large tech companies after the Snowden revelations about PRISM et c.
- snazz 7y ago
  Do you have any evidence for that? Sounds like a bit of a conspiracy theory to me.
  - sneak 7y ago
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2013/12/16/obama-to-meet-with-high-tech-ceos-on-healthcare-gov-nsa/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2013/12... Put yourself in their shoes. These companies stand to lose tens or perhaps hundreds of billions of dollars in foreign sales if there isn’t a counter-narrative to “well of course they spy for their national military, just look at these Snowden slides”. Making it seem like they are fighting for their customers at odds with the FBI is a perfect counterpoint. Meanwhile, it’s business as usual for US military intelligence, as evidenced by TFA. Excellent reporting!
  - tuldia 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#Responses_to_disclosures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#R...
panarky 7y ago
It's mostly marketing bullshit. Apple and Microsoft both tried to build ad businesses, but when they weren't as successful as Google, they turned lemons into lemonade by launching data privacy PR campaigns against Google. Meanwhile, Apple and Microsoft quietly censor their products in China, surrender data to Chinese authorities, and now we find Apple is intentionally leaving iCloud data insecure. Presumably Google was under the same pressure from US law enforcement, but somehow Google delivered end-to-end encrypted Android backups in October, 2018. And Google did it without all of Apple's self-congratulatory media hoopla. e2ee: https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-have-your-back-by.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-h... Third party security audit: https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/our-research/android-cloud-backuprestore/?research=Public+Reports https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/our-research/android-cloud-bac...

t4skf0rc3 7y ago

Privacy? Who needs it, amirite? I mean, I'm not up to anything illegal, and I don't actually care about people seeing my stuff, BUT... the concept as a whole of "government should have access to everything all the time, regardless of reasoning" does not sit well with me.

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EGreg 7y ago
Nourong
pfarrell 7y ago
What happens when what is considered legal gets changed in the future?
lostgame 7y ago
You don't even, for instance, torrent? Movies, music? (You don't have to answer that. :P ) Ever pirate apps, even just to try before you buy? The point is, if someone from the law is interested in you, or suspects you of some grander illegal thing, a lot of us do illegal things that might just be a little less grand, and a lot of us have the digital equivalent of a broken taillight.
- rrmm 7y ago
  There are plenty of more mundane misuses as well. Ex-spouse stalking, slighted lawman with a grudge, technician with a weird fetish. Sure there should be safeguards but they don't always work as well as you'd hope.

_salmon 7y ago

Just to be clear, if you do local backups to iTunes, you can encrypt those backups with a key you control

nittynits 7y ago

Shame on the FBI. Unfortunately the average Apple user won't understand or care about the implications. This is why I don't use ICloud or any cloud products. Apple are not nearly as bad as Google though. I stopped using GDrive about a year ago and I aim to be Google-free for 2020. I don't use Gmail for anything important any more.

CiPHPerCoder 7y ago

End-to-end backup encryption is hard. Apple had faced criticism from cryptographers for failing to implement it. https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2012/04/05/icloud-who-holds-key/ https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2012/04/05/icloud-w... The fact that they started working on the problem then abandoned it after the FBI complained is disappointing, especially to Apple consumers. But all it means is the status quo marches on. Headlines like this vindicate my decision to never purchase an Apple product.

nexuist 7y ago
>Headlines like this vindicate my decision to never purchase an Apple product. What else can you buy? Surely not Android...do you live without a smartphone (serious question, not judging)?
- CiPHPerCoder 7y ago
  "Surely not Android...do you live without a smartphone (serious question, not judging)?" That's a very judgmental way to ask that question if you're trying to not be judging. My phone hardware would fall under the Android classification, but I run LineageOS. I wish I had more options, but we're stuck in a hellish duopoly for the time being.
  - tomaskafka 7y ago
    > but I run LineageOS With Google Play Services surveillance rootkit? :)
- fsflover 7y ago
  Waiting for Librem 5.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
    Or the pinephone, which isn't as nice but is 1. way cheaper, and 2. shipping already.

ifthenelseend 7y ago

another reason to switch to android

gruez 7y ago
android does end to end backups out of the box?
- trimbo 7y ago
  Yes https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-have-your-back-by.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-h...

louis-paul 7y ago

Easy fix: back up your iPhone locally on your computer instead of using iCloud: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203977#computer https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203977#computer The ambiguous position on true end-to-end encryption shows once again that Apple is in for the marketing (both to consumers—predatory and dangerous, and to engineering talent—dishonest). Same hypocrisy as on the China issue. Not that there is an easy solution when you are one of the biggest companies on the planet and that shareholders essentially expect you to grow forever while playing nice with everyone.

nathancahill 7y ago
Second step: Delete old backups https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204247#backups https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204247#backups
- tghw 7y ago
  Eh, maybe, maybe not. What guarantees are there that the backups actually get deleted? Storage is cheap these days...
  - falcolas 7y ago
    If you delete your remote backups, they are likely be deleted, eventually. If you don't delete your remote backups, they won't be deleted. There's no business case for keeping backups around for Apple, unless they suddenly became an ad company and started mining your backups for personalization data.
    - iamtheworstdev 7y ago
      There is a business case - charge the FBI or any government agency for the cost of restoring/delivering it to them, or use the contents to improve any machine learning they are conducting, and I'm sure there are others. For the longest time Facebook couldn't actually delete photos that you requested the deletion of. They could remove it from indexes so it couldn't be found, but if you had the link it would still be available (akamai cdn). Because, to them, either the cost of the hosting was miniscule compared to the cost of writing the software to ensure things actually got purged from the CDN.

middleclick 7y ago

So what about all the privacy billboards, 'What happens on your phone stays on your phone?'. New version: 'What happens on your phone stays on your phone and unencrypted on the cloud'.

marketingfool 7y ago
Marketing is separate from facts. Non Apple fans have been screaming about Apple's Marketing being detached from reality.

snowwrestler 7y ago

I will not be surprised if further reporting points a finger at the influence of China as well. Apple already conceded to hosting Chinese iCloud data on Chinese servers, and that news came out about 2 years ago... which is also the timeframe reported for this decision to forego end-to-end encryption of iCloud backups. I'm guessing here, but I think it's safe to assume that China was not going to permit such encryption (for the same reason they insist on hosting the data) and thus to provide it for the U.S., Apple would have had to fork iCloud. Add in the political risk in the U.S. and you have a recipe for "maybe not."

mrtksn 7y ago

Apple has a list for that: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 These are end to end: Home data Health data (requires iOS 12 or later) iCloud Keychain (includes all of your saved accounts and passwords) Payment information QuickType Keyboard learned vocabulary (requires iOS 11 or later) Screen Time Siri information Wi-Fi passwords The messages also end to end but the backup contains the private key. The moral of the story is that if you want real protection, do local backups.

novok 7y ago
So do you need to decrypt the backup of your iMessages to get to the private key inside of it, or can apple see your private iMessage keys in the backup without needing to decrypt anything?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ghostpepper 7y ago
> The messages also end to end but the backup contains the private key. Should this even be called E2E? I suppose it is, technically, but clearly not in spirit.
- trillic 7y ago
  It is if you backup your device to your Mac or PC...or don't back it up at all.
snowwrestler 7y ago
I thought iMessage private keys are somehow based on data in the "secure enclave" chip, and thus not able to be stored in the cloud. It's my understanding that Apple could add new "devices" to listen in on future conversations, but it can't read iMessage conversations in transit between existing devices. It can also read iCloud backups of conversation content, which are created by the client device after decrypting the message. But that's not the same as storing the private key itself in the backup. Happy to have my understanding updated...

aloukissas 7y ago

Which is exactly why I use Signal exclusively.

newscracker 7y ago
Signal prohibits backing up chats on iOS. So there’s no question of information leaking from a backup when there’s no way to create it.
- cosmiccatnap 7y ago
  Sounds like another reason iOS is no longer the choice for security...
- aloukissas 7y ago
  For me, not being able to back up chats is a feature. It even warns you if you download an attachment (e.g. an image) to local storage.

m3kw9 7y ago

Just back up on your pc and select encrypt and not use iCloud, but that is a huge hassle

m3kw9 7y ago

To be fair to Apple, if you believe Apples privacy policy, being able to access it, theyliky won’t access it and sell your data to advertising Agencies.

clarkmoody 7y ago

Beyond HN and tech circles, is there any detectable groundswell of demand for privacy? When you talk with friends & family about privacy, does anyone care? When average people care about privacy, the large players will respond. Until then, pressure from the state can be accommodated without irking customers, so Big Tech will play along.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
commandlinefan 7y ago
I seem to recall when Jennifer Lawrence (a famous actress you may have heard of) had her icloud storage hacked and leaked all over the internet, there was a bit of a murmur online and even offline about it.
dudus 7y ago
General public are generally ignorant about risks in the tech they use. That doesn't mean they don't care about their privacy. There's an assumption that laws and safeguards are in place so technology in general can be trusted and transacted on. In other words they trust in us "the tech circle" to police ourselves and assert security and privacy. It's not circle jerk about privacy. It's a duty we have by being in the frontlines.
- freehunter 7y ago
  Exactly. The general public is never going to say “I demand end to end encryption and complete privacy” because they don’t know how all the tech works. But they’re surely going to expect that their private text messages are private and their private pictures are private. People expect privacy as a default and sharing as an option, and they rely on the “experts” (tech companies, lawmakers, etc) to help them.
  - reroute1 7y ago
    Not exactly. Some people may not understand and also not care and I'm sure there are many many people who that fits. When you're talking about surveillance level vs. someone hacking your iPhone that's not really a comparison. Of course people don't want their private messages stolen, but that's not really the case with most surveillance. Not that I'm in favor of it necessarily but there are merits. Surveillance and privacy aren't the same thing but this is the FBI and people are bringing up snowden. In general I think you're right privacy is just expected for personal messages, but at some point when it's just data I don't think most people care, and may in fact support some level of surveillance.

classified 7y ago

Surprise! The "we value your privacy" statement is a lie, as with any other US company.

hartator 7y ago

Are the iMessages in an iCloud backup encrypted or not? As of now. It seems actually unclear.

snazz 7y ago
Yes, but the key is stored in your iCloud backup if you use it. As soon as you disable iCloud backups it will roll the key for iMessage and they will be effectively E2E encrypted. When Messages in iCloud is enabled, iMessage, Business Chat, text (SMS), and MMS messages are removed from the user’s existing iCloud Backup, and are instead stored in an end-to-end encrypted CloudKit container for Messages. The user’s iCloud Backup retains a key to that container. If the user subsequently disables iCloud Backup, that container’s key is rolled, the new key is stored only in iCloud Keychain (inaccessible to Apple and any third parties), and new data written to the container can’t be decrypted with the old container key. https://support.apple.com/guide/security/icloud-backup-contents-sec2c21e7f49/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/icloud-backup-conte...
- zzzcpan 7y ago
  > Yes, but the key is stored in your iCloud backup if you use it. As soon as you disable iCloud backups it will roll the key for iMessage and they will be effectively E2E encrypted. Assuming this is true, you still don't know what people on the other end will do, meaning it is never actually E2E encrypted.
  - snazz 7y ago
    E2E usually means from endpoint device 1 (my iPhone) to endpoint device 2 (my friend’s iPhone). What the other person will do with it doesn’t factor into the conventional definition of E2E.
    - zzzcpan 7y ago
      No, conventional definition is actually both: from endpoint device 1 to endpoint device 2 and from endpoint device 2 to endpoint device 1. If device 2 has backups in question enabled, there is no E2E anymore.

turk73 7y ago

the great trick these companies and the government played on us was "You will be secure in your papers and effects but not ones located outside your home" so cloud backups were marketed just as the courts decided that they could invade your cloud data. It was a brilliant move towards mass surveillance. I don't like how this is going...

macinjosh 7y ago

As a big fan of the Mac and iPhone this is incredibly disappointing. I always assumed the privacy situation with Apple was candy-coated but I didn't think they were this spineless.

marketingfool 7y ago
How can you be a big fan of a product knowing that it's full of lies? Serious question.

cr0sh 7y ago

Between things like this, and the shenanigans Google pulls (with Android, the store, developers, and other things), I'm quickly going in a different direction. My ultimate plan is to build my own phone; yes, I'll still be stuck with a carrier (I use t-mobile, and I haven't had a problem with them over 10+ years I've used them), and the hardware won't be completely "open source", but the software and OS will at least be what I make of it myself. In the meantime, I'll be playing with one of the Pine64 phones; hopefully it will give me most if not all of everything I want and need, and maybe I can help with bug testing or perhaps software development? At any rate, it won't be Apple or Google. There are times that I have when I sometimes think to myself that going back to simple email on a text screen, and not much else, would be a better thing than what the web has become. Maybe go back to BBS's over ssh or something? "Dial In" using my TRS-80 Model 100 "laptop" and move out to the boonies...

gonational 7y ago
It sounds like an awesome idea, and I’ve considered ordering a pine phone for the same reason. I don’t know why anyone would down vote your comment. On “hacker news” it’s no longer considered cool to hack together your own tech? When did HN become a corporate bootlicking dump?

newscracker 7y ago

Is Apple’s privacy white paper dealing with fats on iCloud just an eyewash now? > Instead of protecting all of iCloud with end-to-end encryption, Apple has shifted to focus on protecting some of the most sensitive user information, such as saved passwords and health data. > But backed-up contact information and texts from iMessage, WhatsApp and other encrypted services remain available to Apple employees and authorities. Way to confuse laypeople with promises of security and data privacy. If Apple had concerns about users losing the key, why not implement it similar to two factor authentication on Apple IDs where Apple also provides the recovery codes (and additionally disallow any other mechanism of recovery)?

djrogers 7y ago

Another case of a headline not being supported by the story: “ Reuters could not determine why exactly Apple dropped the plan. “Legal killed it, for reasons you can imagine,” another former Apple employee said he was told, without any specific mention of why the plan was dropped or if the FBI was a factor in the decision.” And further on: “ However, a former Apple employee said it was possible the encryption project was dropped for other reasons, such as concern that more customers would find themselves locked out of their data more often.” So 4 of the 6 sources were speculating (FBI), and one actively admits they don’t know the reason, but the lede says 6 sources confirmed this. Hmmm...

chias 7y ago
In fairness, the title does not say that Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups because FBI complained :P
- slimginz 7y ago
  I know you're being cheeky and pedantic, but that's exactly the spin the title was trying to go for in order to get clicks. While not "technically" wrong, it's still pretty dishonest imo.
  - wheelie_boy 7y ago
    "Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after release of 'National Treasure 2', starring Nicholas Cage"
    - chias 7y ago
      I would read the hell out of that article.
make3 7y ago
am HN mod should change the title
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

halis 7y ago

Uhhhhhh....wait waht?

matt-attack 7y ago

So now that iTunes is gone, how does one do a local iPhone backup?

snazz 7y ago
It shows up in Finder. Most of the iTunes functionality is still there but split up into more logical places.
thoughtsimple 7y ago
It's part of the Finder now. Same UI (and probably code) just doesn't come as part of a monolithic application (but now part of a even more monolithic OS).

j45 7y ago

Might be a good reason to look into storage as an appliance. Personal NAS' (Synology, QNAP) are quite serviceable.

bronco21016 7y ago

I believe this has been the case for sometime hasn’t it? I vaguely remember reporting indicating this was true during the San Bernardino case and that Apple handed over that backup. Either way I do remember reading the Apple law enforcement guidelines a year or two ago and this was the case. iCloud data is not secure from law enforcement. My project list has implementing a WiFi backup Windows/iTunes VM for this specific case. Does anyone know how iOS backups will be handled on personal PCs once iTunes is discontinued?

mindajar 7y ago
Device backups are handled by Finder in the post-iTunes world, at least on the Mac. I think iTunes is still a thing on Windows?
- bronco21016 7y ago
  Ah I see the distinction in a few articles now. Thanks!

skandl 7y ago

Apple has an opportunity to stand separate as a leader in user privacy first. But to do so means constantly standing up to government(s).

marketingfool 7y ago
It literally doesn't matter. You are talking about their latest ad campaign. Apple internal is complete detached from the commercials you see. It's about sales, not teaching users.

justapassenger 7y ago

Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, about how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. While iPhone itself is pretty secure as a device phone (and Apple makes sure to remind you about that in each ad, public speaking, attacks on competitors, etc), as an ecosystem it's not secure. And it's like that on purpose - there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud. You have to be a tech person to know how to keep an iPhone secure. Average Joe buys iPhone and pays for iCloud. They Apple first $1k to get (on top of other things) a secure device, and then they Apple monthly fee to give Apple all their data and make insecure. Pretty genius business strategy.

terminaljunkid 7y ago
That meme should have been diminished earlier. People should understand while Google saves much data within itself, Apple shares it with advertising partners. By the way, People have come to hate Google all the way for some advertising and easily switch-able data collection. But one should at same time hesitate to vote to apple with their wallets, they are a monster company which patents rounded corners of phones and things like optional chaining in Swift. That just goes unnoticed in circles like HN. IMO apple has always been more evil than Google.
privateSFacct 7y ago
Seriously - a big deal to me for sure.
wnevets 7y ago
>Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, Probably not. The keyboards on their laptops are barely functional but it doesn't stop people from saying how great they are.
- 77pt77 7y ago
  I'm always reminded of The Onion's prophetic sketches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA

_bxg1 7y ago

> aboyt how much Apple cares about users No company cares about anything. A company is not a person. Apple, because of its privacy-marketing, is incentivized to be the privacy player in the market. But only so far as consumers keep them honest about it. They got away with this loophole because it stayed under the radar; if it gets enough attention and enough customers show that it matters to them, it could change. On the other hand, it's possible that because we have a smartphones duopoly, Apple only needs to maintain a position where people will say "well at least it's not as bad as Google". I'm upset about this personally, but I'm not ditching my iPhone. Of course, this does cement my decision to never pay for iCloud, for what that's worth (much less, but not nothing).

giancarlostoro 7y ago
> On the other hand, it's possible that because we have a smartphones duopoly, Apple only needs to maintain a position where people will say "well at least it's not as bad as Google". I'm upset about this personally, but I'm not ditching my iPhone. Of course, this does cement my decision to never pay for iCloud, for what that's worth (much less, but not nothing). Agreed, and I am likely going away from Android and into iOS for my next phone. It's still a setting you can change so it's not forced into their cloud thankfully. I wish Microsoft hadn't backed out. A Surface Phone would be kind of cool. I guess too much stigma about Microsoft has held them back from being competitive. I think they shoulda waited for their Microsoft Store to grow much more organically, then release the Windows Mobile phones. The other issue is Google's agreements.
- berkes 7y ago
  I'd argue that Android, without the Google stuff, is still the best option if you care about privacy and security. This is not accessible for average Joe, but I'm pretty certain the majority of readers here can use the tools to load an alternative ROM. That you can enable and use F-droid just fine. And are knowledgeable enough to know what apps to avoid.
  - mtgx 7y ago

GeekyBear 7y ago

>there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud. Turn off iCloud and do local encrypted backups to your PC or Mac. This works over your wifi network (if you prefer wireless charging at home) or via a cable connection.

justapassenger 7y ago
It’s not only way more friction than iCloud, but you’d be surprised how many people nowadays don’t even own a PC or Mac. In my wife’s family 60% of people only have phones, tablets and smart TVs. They use laptops/desktops only at work.
- simonh 7y ago
  It's a shame, but I don't see how this is a knock against Apple. They offer a basic service to backup your device on their infrastructure. If you want better/more you have to provide the infrastructure yourself, and they support several common permutations of suitable infrastructure. I think that's reasonable.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- __david__ 7y ago
  On a daily basis there’s no more friction than iCloud. My phone backs up to my computer over WiFi once a day when it gets plugged in for charging. I don’t ever think about it—it just happens.
- ksec 7y ago
  We Need iOS TimeCapsule.
  - jonnytran 7y ago
    We need Time Capsule. Period. It was discontinued in 2018. [1] I am still so sad about this. 1: https://www.macworld.com/article/3269361/apple-discontinues-the-airport-time-capsule-airport-extreme-and-airport-express.html https://www.macworld.com/article/3269361/apple-discontinues-...

tomaskafka 7y ago

Two things: 1) There is no way Apple would be allowed to sell iPhones in China, without China government having access to anything. So, I assume that Apple users in China have e2e encrypted exactly nothing. 2) I have a strong suspicion that those 'enter your Apple ID password because your account needs it' message really means 'a government has requested your data and even though it's encrypted, we will nag you about entering a password, and if you give it, you're a free game'. I don't blame Apple for this, I'm sure they're doing what they can, but when a government says 'give us this data', they can't not comply and stay in business. And a whole point of a company is staying in the business. Vote responsibly - companies can't protect us from a government we have put into power.

awinter-py 7y ago

I don't think we understand yet how to model the impacts of breaches on products. Cambridge Analytica didn't ruin facebook, but it did enable CCPA, and it probably changed how FB users think of / trust the product. Ashley Madison / equifax breaches completely ruined their cos. Snowden disclosures were a weird middle case that meant all things to all people. Weakening aapl's privacy claims may not matter to a post-truth public but I suspect it will further drive demand for actual consumer privacy products, when and if they enter the market.

sparker72678 7y ago

I wish Data Protection (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/uikit/protecting_the_user_s_privacy/encrypting_your_app_s_files https://developer.apple.com/documentation/uikit/protecting_t...) would allow app developers to use a locally-derived key to secure app data. Then, even in iCloud Backups, you'd still not have the key to decrypt specific app data without having unlocked the device. I realize you could do this right now (in theory) with your own encryption solution and Keychain, but a first party solution that's as easy use as the Data Protection features/apis would be really nice. Apple has plenty of data that I wish was E2E encrypted, but if many/most of my 3rd party apps had their own data locked, that would go a long way in the right direction.

frankzen 7y ago

Great. More identity theft for the masses!

skrowl 7y ago

For comparison, Google end-to-end encrypts Android backups with your lock screen PIN/pattern (which isn't known to Google). Source - https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-have-your-back-by.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-h...

Shank 7y ago
Offline attacks for a motivated adversary, like NSA, are trivial on low strength security measures, like a standard PIN, numeric only PIN, or pattern. Only a strong passphrase would really help you.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- modeless 7y ago
  This is false. This concern is addressed in the second paragraph of the linked article: > this passcode-protected key material is encrypted to a Titan security chip on our datacenter floor. The Titan chip is configured to only release the backup decryption key when presented with a correct claim derived from the user's passcode. Because the Titan chip must authorize every access to the decryption key, it can permanently block access after too many incorrect attempts at guessing the user’s passcode, thus mitigating brute force attacks. The limited number of incorrect attempts is strictly enforced by a custom Titan firmware that cannot be updated without erasing the contents of the chip. By design, this means that no one (including Google) can access a user's backed-up application data without specifically knowing their passcode.
  - ran3824692 7y ago
    But the source code of many important parts of android are nonfree, so google can update it to send your cleartext password and you would never know.
    - modeless 7y ago

parliament32 7y ago

The ecosystem is incredibly insecure, despite what Apple's marketing department wants you to think. More than anything I'm surprised at how often their advertising talking points are parroted in tech circles, like here on HN.. in any thread hinting at Google vs Apple you're bound to find a long comment chain about how Apple is "secure" and "privacy oriented" and "cares about their users". Not that Google is any better, but it makes me wonder whether it's just astroturfing or if their marketing is actually working.

Nextgrid 7y ago
It all depends on your threat model. For the average person I’m not worried about the relatively unlikely occurrence of the government accessing their backups. I’m much more worried about the more likely occurrence of local malware or ad tracking by malicious apps including from big names like Facebook & other social media companies, and in that instance Apple is still ahead as the OS restricts what apps can do a lot more than Android, the App Store is more curated against malware, etc.
- parliament32 7y ago
  Here's a threat model for you: how fucked would you be if your iCloud backups suddenly became searchable online? Ever say anything bad about your boss or company in an convo? Ever taken any photos you wouldn't want released? Ever downloaded any files you wouldn't want public? The agencies have proven time and time again that they're pretty terrible at keeping secrets (see: all the leaks, data breaches, TSA master keys, etc). As long as they have a back door, it's inevitable that it'll happen -- it's effectively a ticking time bomb. When I send a message over Signal, I can trust that it'll be kept private, barring some truly extraordinary incident. With Apple, it's kept accessible by design (storing the encryption key with the encrypted backup? really?). It's not about the government accessing my messages, because I really don't care all that much, it's that I don't trust them to keep secrets. If the government has access to something of yours you must assume it'll eventually be made public... whether or not you're okay with that is up to you.

fortran77 7y ago

Apple has done a great job convincing otherwise "progressive" people that one of the world's richest companies is the underdog who's fighting for you!

kohtatsu 7y ago

PSA: libimobiledevice exists and supports native encrypted backup/restores for iPhones using the idevicebackup2 utility. You can also disable iCloud backups from there for fun. https://www.libimobiledevice.org/ https://www.libimobiledevice.org/ Not excusing Apple. This is a disgrace, first in China now here.

kohtatsu 7y ago
With the ifuse utility you can even mount a subset of your iPhone's storage as a FUSE filesystem. (If it's jailbroken you can mount all of it) Doing so I was able to read the SQLite database Photos uses on my girlfriend's iPhone to migrate only photos she had favourited to her new phone; she hated the idea of moving them all over so much that she was ready to let the best ones perish.

someonehere 7y ago

Apple is not 100% secured against SIM swapping. There’s an option to have an SMS sent with your 2FA code as another option. I know because I’ve done this before and was wondering when Apple would let you use a hardware token or virtual MFA as an option like in my Google account.

ganzuul 7y ago

Dell, which started as a military supplier, encrypts their cloud storage to avoid liability. I wonder what Apple is liable for in light of this.

xpq 7y ago

oh I'm deeply disapointed. I payed so much premium for quality and privacy and this is my outcome.

rm_-rf_ 7y ago

I've seen the list that Apple provides on their web site that lists the things that are end to end encrypted, but what about "Locked" Notes? My understanding is that encryption is happening on the client-side and that you need to enter your password to unlock.

herf 7y ago

Is there a good design that lets someone forget their password and restore their backup (without a recovery key somewhere, like on an old device?) If you forget a local iTunes backup password, there is no way to fix it.

nabla9 7y ago

What level decision this is? a) Is this just tactical move? Apple might choose to delay it's plans In effort to avoid confronting the current administration and wait for more reasonable one. b) Is this permanent change of strategy? Giving up.

deftturtle 7y ago

I'm so done with Apple, but more generally, with cell-phones. I was very excited to have Signal available back in 2015, but when I learned about cellular baseband processors and DMA attacks, I realized the whole smartphone stack is insecure. We can't audit anything in our phones, down to the cellular chip. Even if our phones were 100% trustworthy, they are triangulated by cell towers thousands of times per day. Location tracking can only be avoided by: 1: Not owning a phone. 2: Powering off your device and keeping in a Faraday cage while not using. Tempting to own a cute little purse that blocks phone signals, but do I really need a cell-phone on my body, 24/7? If I evaluate the overall pros & cons of my cellphone, it has been overwhelmingly negative. I've had a phone since August 2014, when I went to college. Before that, I would text with my parents' phones. Here are the top negative things that have happened due to using a phone: 1. Miscommunication, isolation, social anxiety due to social media and texting. Talking in person is so much better. And what about the hours and hours of snapchatting, so pointless and sad looking back. 2. False sense of security, thinking you can know what's going on, help people, intervene when necessary (friend sexual assault stuff at parties). What about when their phone dies? It made me wish we had landlines, or that I had been there. If I didn't have a cell phone, I don't think I would've left the party. I would've stayed and kept watch. 3. Poor posture, lack of sleep, constant exposure to blue light (who knows if the light is really bad), etc. 4. Missed connections by having my head in my phone all the time in public. 5. The US government has a total map of my life since August 2014, even though I have sent thousands of encrypted messages and hundreds of encrypted phone calls. 6. Less time available each day. I have spent typically 1-3 hours per day on my phone since I got one, about 1,980 days ago. This amounts to probably 4,000 to 6,000 hours, or about 170 to 250 days. In other words, about 1/8th of my life since 2014 has been dedicated to bullshit technology. Here are some positives: 1. I have lots of photos that would otherwise have required a camera. But I have dozens of film cameras and a few digital ones, and there's no reason to shoot photos on such a tiny format. Good luck printing cell-photos beyond 5x7 or even 8x10. 2. I occasionally talk to family. This could be accomplished with a landline. Maybe I've missed some things, and maybe I'm being pessimistic, but the reality is that I've lost lots of sleep and experienced more problems with interpersonal relationships as a result of having a phone. It's likely that not owning a phone would expose me to a new class of problems, but I've decided to get rid of my phone. I'm in the process of switching accounts and removing 2FA, so I don't need cell service. Once I get there, I'm planning to write a little blog post about it. After having a baby, it's become clear that a phone is sucking my life away, and I need to be present with my family. Hope to have this all dealt with in the next week or two.

jbverschoor 7y ago

Time to disable iCloud backup and cancel my iCloud subscription.

christefano 7y ago
Samesies :(

scarface74 7y ago

394 comments based on a rumor from an anonymous employee? Is this what HN considers "news"?

yanks215 7y ago

When will a startup enter into this space with a privacy focused smartphone? Does this already exist, and is it good? If not, why all the complaints and why hasn't someone entered the market? Obviously startup costs will be high, but there will certainly be funding available for this market, right?

_underfl0w_ 7y ago
Pine64 and Purism make devices that might fit that bill, but keep in mind that the devices may not be as user-friendly in their current state as you might hope for. There's still a lot of rough edges, I hear.

deleted 7y ago

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musicale 7y ago

If this is true it is incredibly disapppointing.

m0zg 7y ago

Well, that's one way to force Apple to reverse a stupid decision. Looking forward to backups encrypted so well Christopher Wray would have a nervous breakdown, in the next iOS update.

notadoc 7y ago

Is anyone surprised by this? It could be for many reasons too, including average people forgetting iCloud passwords and wanting their data back. Does Apple unlock an iCloud backup in that situation? Perhaps a pro-privacy compromise would be for Apple to offer the feature but have it turned off by default, which means 99.99% of users won't ever change that.

caf 7y ago

It turns over data more often in response to secret U.S. intelligence court directives, which sought content from more than 18,000 accounts in the first half of 2019, the most recently reported six-month period. When you think about it, that volume is staggering. 36,000 iDevice-using intelligence targets every year? Imagine the amount of analyst time required just to go through 36,000 iCloud backups every year!

jamilbk 7y ago
Really makes you wonder what the criteria is for being investigated. Maybe I’m naive, but I find it hard to believe that there are 36,000 yearly iCloud accounts with probable cause to be tied to terrorism activity and/or national security matters, especially if that’s only in the US. As someone with a (half) Middle Eastern heritage and name (but born and raised in the US) I’ve experienced my fair share of nuanced discrimination at airports and one weird situation with what I assume was the FBI. There’s always the ignorant TSA agent who raises an eyebrow when you report coming back from the Middle East... like why would anyone ever travel there if it weren’t for terrorism? I’m a pretty average techie so I’m not too worried about anyone going through my iCloud backups, but I feel like there should be some more transparency around this stuff. I feel like if you’re secretly investigated but discovered to be innocent, shouldn’t you deserve to know you were spied on? I guess that’s what FOIA requests are for. The war on terrorism feels like a game of whack-a-mole sometimes.

deleted 7y ago

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diebeforei485 7y ago

I don't think Apple ever claimed iCloud backups are end-to-end encrypted (it is encrypted at rest, but not end-to-end). But I can see how many users would assume that, given Apple's dishonest/brash marketing about how "what happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone".

diebeforei485 7y ago

Apple should allow third-party backup solutions. Backblaze is the option I would use if I had the choice, because they already support end-to-end encryption (end-to-end does have a downside: losing the encryption password means losing the data. Most people would make this tradeoff, but many HN readers would).

xp84 7y ago

Unpopular opinion: We users are better off if Apple is "compromising" on something like this at the stage we're in now - especially since nobody forces you to use iCloud Backups - than we'll be when/if the US gov makes Apple an offer it can't refuse and forces a real backdoor master-key on the whole system top to bottom. Assumption: That not going full encrypted backups will prevent the government from having the political capital to enact a "crackdown" forcing a backdoor on the devices, iMessage, etc.

xvector 7y ago
That is not the issue. Their deceptive marketing is the issue.

pedramnegahdar 7y ago

Pathetic.

matheusmoreira 7y ago

So what if the FBI complains? If anything, that's a sign they're doing things correctly.

scarface74 7y ago

Does anyone who knows anything about Apple think they would approach the FBI before creating a new feature?

jason0597 7y ago

Data shouldn't be end-to-end encrypted. It should just be end-to-server encrypted, without the server having an ability to decrypt your data.

I_am_tiberius 7y ago

I was moments away from ordering a mac book 16" when this got published. Waiting for the new xps 13 development edition now.

bilekas 7y ago

Well the Fappening can disgrace and expose millions of people to extortion etc. But the FBI can see everything so thats okay.

fulldecent2 7y ago

The small bit of iCloud E2EE which Apple allows (for health data, passwords and Mac-to-Mac clipboard sharing) is using your iPhone's 6-digit passcode and your Mac's admin password. That means that Apple can also now perform an offline brute-force attack against your file vault password. This makes even your offline devices less secure.

fulldecent2 7y ago

Even if you want nothing to do with iCould, you must still enable it for these features: - Mac-to-Mac copy/paste (shared clipboard, continuity) - iPad sidecar Once you enable it, it immediately begins uploading your contacts, photos and passwords to Apple. Then you need to disable those specific things. Even after you delete those things, every app on your phone can silently and without your explicit permission, start loading data into iCloud.