27 ms·

New airplane seat design to make it easier to sleep in economy

299 points by prostoalex 7y ago

jedberg 7y ago
> In fitting with the trend towards more personalized, data-driven flying experiences, New Territory is keen to add facial recognition technology to the mix too. Wow, marketing fluff much? They just want to add something to check for closed eyes. Not exactly facial recognition.
- uncoder0 7y ago
  Seems like a normal PR piece turned into an 'article' in modern online journalism. If these new seats actually help people sleep better it's great. Economy vs Business is not even comparable in terms of ability to sleep at least in terms of trans-Atlantic. I was lucky enough to get 2 trans-Atlantic (from midwest) trips in business where I had previously done economy normally and it was so relaxing and easy to sleep, for me.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  It’s tough to defend CNN... but it has to recognize faces to do that right? :)
  - Johnny555 7y ago
    Depends on what you mean by "recognize faces". It has to recognize that it's seeing a face and eyes, but it doesn't need to recognize that the face belongs to John Smith, Frequent Flyer #0123456789
    - boring_twenties 7y ago
      What exactly is the privacy risk there? The airline already knows who is sitting in the seat, and also their ff#
      - AlphaSite 7y ago
        Who wants a camera pointed at their face for potentially 20+ hours?
        imgabe 7y ago
        People who use laptops all day?
        squeaky-clean 7y ago
        I'd be willing to bet that a majority of HN readers have tape over their webcams.
      - kortilla 7y ago
        Breastfeeding
      - sandoooo 7y ago
        "Top 20 politicians from <party you don't like> looking stupid in long-haul flights". How do they know which party that would be? Facial recognition, obviously.
        boring_twenties 7y ago
        Wait, are you trying to talk me out of it or sell me on it?
  - jedberg 7y ago
    I think people generally consider facial recognition meaning to recognize your face, not just that one exists.
    - kodablah 7y ago
      This is one of those rare cases where it's helpful to conflate the two since, when considering privacy implications, the tolerance of one begets the other. In other words, recognition of individual facial features should be treated with as much caution as individual facial recognition.
  - jobigoud 7y ago
    It just has to detect them.
luxuryballs 7y ago
“As long as you can make it cheaper and able to fit more total passengers than the boring regular seat then we have a deal.” - Mr. Airline
- Animats 7y ago
  That's the stand-up seat.[1] [1] https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/standing-up-airplane-seat-testing/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/standing-up-airplane-seat...
  - RodgerTheGreat 7y ago
    The real grift is that despite the claims in that article, we all know what will really happen to the prices: standing seats will cost what economy seats used to, and every other tier bumps up.
    - tcoff91 7y ago
      The cost of flying has gone down significantly over time so I would not be so sure about that.
      - eagsalazar2 7y ago
        The price per square inch of human space has probably stayed the same after inflation adjustment. People on average are just more likely to buy cheaper seats than more room, so by natural selection we get smaller seats.
        larnmar 7y ago
        Fares have come down in absolute dollar terms (let alone inflation adjusted) over the last twenty years, while economy seat sizes have barely changed. What has changed is yield management — airlines have got much better at flying with as few empty seats as possible. So the main thing that has gone down to allow prices to decrease in real terms is your chance of getting an empty seat next to you.
ccamrobertson 7y ago
Those look like Premium Economy seats based on their generous width, not the crushing 17"-and-change width of typical Economy seats.
- singron 7y ago
  All the pictures are of women in the seats. Men often have broader shoulders and larger upper arms. If I sit next to another man, we sometimes make contact on the upper arms for most the flight. The wings seem to take up a couple inches themselves, so it could become too cramped horizontally to be comfortable.
  - grendelt 7y ago
    I laughed at her sitting cross-legged on the bulkhead row. Try that just one row back, sister.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - Mountain_Skies 7y ago
    A friends has been one of those models for airline print ads. She also is incredibly petite due to a digestive issue that keeps her from digesting calories and nutrients properly. It's a bit disturbing that she's so popular for that type of advertising.
  - Nursie 7y ago
    Yup, she's tiny and those wings look like they take up a whole bunch of shoulder-space.
  - bitexploder 7y ago
    As a person with very broad shoulders... I cringed when I saw these seats, heh. Usually I fold in a little bit for larger people, but on Southwest other large people get the idea that sitting next to me might not be a comfortable experience for either of us and avoid me. And if someone is being ride and I expand my shoulders they can literally be in 1/4 to 1/3 of my neighbors seat. Oh you leaned forward? Allow me to show you my true form, heh. Usually get seats with extra leg room and use that to occupy less space and not make my seat neighbor uncomfortable.
Ericson2314 7y ago
I always lean forward on the tray table. I find resting my head / getting it horizontal is far more important than anything for the rest of my body. Is this just me? I get the sense that very little is optimized for this. The next person reclining their seat makes it harder to fit my head on the tray table, for example. Conflicting resting positions!
- hetman 7y ago
  I'm the same but I'm finding there's simply not enough room to fold over like this on newer airliners.
- decebalus1 7y ago
  Not just you. I'm fairly large so I can't lean forward on the tray table, but the only way I can sleep in an airplane is to lean forward on the front seat while resting my head on my arms (like this https://external-preview.redd.it/W6xGQW43ROL6XltdnBo1MbMO4EJVYujmznCH7ntYRgw.jpg?auto=webp&s=c41165a68aa343189b494ad121ddaa8685a0d7e4 https://external-preview.redd.it/W6xGQW43ROL6XltdnBo1MbMO4EJ... but imagine my arms on top of the seat in front, my head on top of my arms). I actually prefer it when the seat in front of me is reclined.. makes it super comfortable for me to get some shut eye.
- Zarath 7y ago
  I do the same thing, but eventually it becomes uncomfortable on my folded arms and they fall asleep. Or the person in front of me leans back and crushes my head...
  - yibg 7y ago
    What if there was a cushion on the back of the seat in front of you? Something that you can rest your head on at an angle. I’ve though about this and although I haven’t tried it I feel like that’ll be more comfortable for me.
tyingq 7y ago
What I'd rather see is designs that make the middle seat more palatable. There are more aircraft with 3 seats on each side now. It's not perfect, but ideas that make the middle seat better via dedicated armrests, or offsetting it slightly back, would be welcome. One supplier with some decent ideas: https://www.airlineseats.biz/for-passengers https://www.airlineseats.biz/for-passengers
- TuringNYC 7y ago
  +1 It baffles me that non-middle seat passengers try to assert rights to middle seat armrests and consider themselves justified.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    That seemed to get more common around the time picking the seat became a luxury add-on (e.g. basic economy vs economy on the US major carriers). Once folks felt they paid more for their aisle/window, they stopped caring about entitlements for the person in the middle.
  - why-oh-why 7y ago
    I wonder if any of you ever tried sitting on the aisle. It’s a hazard there, constantly being hit by anything and anyone who passes by. No way I’m “resting” on that armrest and therefore I’ll lean towards the middle seat.
    - isoskeles 7y ago
      Do you prefer the middle seat to the aisle?
      - why-oh-why 7y ago
        I think so. Aisle lets you get up anytime you want, but also forces you to get up twice as much as the middle seat. But mainly in the middle seat you never have to be afraid of people bumping into you, which affects you for most of the flight.
crimsonalucard 7y ago
The sitting position occupies a cubic volume with dead space below the butt and above the lap. If you want to put more people in the plane, make them lie down and place the lie down spaces on top of each other and side by side. I'd be down to fly in an airplane like that which by logic should have cheaper air fares because of more people on the plane. It's the perfect sleeping position. The problem is Would you rather be lying down all the time or sitting down all the time? Overall I prefer lying down because I have the option of sleeping and staying awake while lying down; while when sitting, I have the option of staying awake and a really hard time getting some shut eye.
- eagsalazar2 7y ago
  How would you get up to go pee? How could you eat pretzels without getting them all over yourself?
  - crimsonalucard 7y ago
    I've eaten while lying down. It works. Also to get out to go to pee, it's the same as sitting down. Basically everyone has to roll or slither out of the lie down spot for the inner person to get out.
- zaroth 7y ago
  FAA regulations require the ability to evacuate the cabin in 90 seconds.
  - jeffwilcox 7y ago
    90 seconds as measured by non-realistic volunteers in Toulouse and/or Everett who aren't actually afraid for their lives :(
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      I'm not sure if you think that people afraid for their lives would be faster or slower.
greggman2 7y ago
wish they made double or triple decker capsule hotel style beds for long flights.
- ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
  I’d love a capsule-hotel-style option. I don’t care how cramped it is. I feel like you could stack some bunks that take up the same cubic-space-per-seat as existing seats. I only need enough space to lie sideways with my phone in front of my face and a USB port and I’d travel a lot lot more. Context: Physically disabled and have issues sitting on chairs for longer than 1-2hrs before my legs are in excruciating pain, but also, before I had this issue I would’ve loved a submarine-bunk option.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    > I only need enough space to lie sideways with my phone in front of my face This sounds like it'd get a lot more uncomfortable than sitting pretty quickly.
    - ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
      Each to their own. I sleep on my side so that’s all the space I’d need to rest and read or watch something on my phone for a while then sleep for the rest of the trip. I’d rather sleep through flights than sit uncomfortably crammed into the pathetically small chairs they give you these days.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        Beds in Asia often don’t have a lot of padding, they aren’t designed for side sleepers, you would be on your back quickly. Incidentally, a wooden chinese bed will cure you of side sleeping in a few days if you ever want to go that route. I found my sleep was better, but I reverted back to side sleeping quickly after getting to use a normal western bed again (after about six months of using the Chinese bed).
      - 7y ago
mberning 7y ago
No way that is an economy cabin. And they chose a very petite model to sit in the chair. Economy is only going to become more miserable over time as people become taller and wider and airlines continue their war of attrition for low fares.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  International long haul economy can be a bit roomier than domestic. Can see this workin really well for someone like Air New Zealand whose routes are almost all long hauls.
ggm 7y ago
Looks like a fundamentally acceptable design change, which will probably be white-anted out of deployment on cost, or fashion grounds. I think seating in airlines demands regulation. I don't think we will see change here without it, because unlike Premium Economy and Business, where pricing differentiation justifies the spend (the increase in revenue outweighs the engineering costs significantly: Aircraft would be viable long haul solely based on Business and Premium already) there is no pricepoint increase in economy the airlines are willing to make, without being obligated to make it.
- nanokilo 7y ago
  On the other hand, if an airline offered these seats, I'd definitely choose them over the competition. Better seats might not drive more seat upgrades, but it might drive more traffic to your airline.
  - ggm 7y ago
    Absolutely agree. If the marginal cost of this on a seat during a refit which has to happen anyway is low, could happen and could be a deal-breaker once word leaks out. Cathay made economy cramped, people went to Emirates. This could be a fight back move to regain lost market share?
- TheGallopedHigh 7y ago
  White-anted? Never heard this term before.
  - ggm 7y ago
    Sorry, accidentally used an Australianism. It means putting up a million minor issues behind your back and generally eroding belief in things like white ants (termites) attacking a wooden stump on your house. Secretly undermining.
    - chrisfinne 7y ago
      similar to "death by bunny-bites" but I like the additional concept of "secretly undermining"
andrewfromx 7y ago
isn't the real issue the space is limited because jet fuel is too expensive? Both in dollars to get it and cost to planet earth. Seems like the space available for seats per dollar spent will get much better with EPA or NPA (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21436838 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21436838) and NPA with the stuff happening at places like https://terrapower.com/ https://terrapower.com/ seems very promising.
- wp381640 7y ago
  I once worked with someone who was perviously a consultant to a large airline and they dropped the size of their inflight magazine ~20 years ago to save weight and then were amongst the first airlines to drop it all together for the same reason They figured out the $ they would save p.a with every change of page length, paper weight, etc. (it was partially offset by advertisers and onboard sales but not enough) I can't recall the exact numbers but they were significant enough to warrant expensive external suits who eat their lunches at their desks doing the calculations and going ahead with it
  - mcbain 7y ago
    There are listicles with these kinds of stats every now and then (and I’m usually a sucker for them), like this one: https://www.traveller.com.au/airline-weight-reduction-to-save-fuel-the-crazy-ways-airlines-save-weight-on-planes-h14vlh https://www.traveller.com.au/airline-weight-reduction-to-sav... Scaling any kind of issue changes things dramatically.
    - spyckie2 7y ago
      thanks, appreciated this article more than the parent.
oceliker 7y ago
> The designers are considering adding facial recognition technology to the design. Um, what > In fitting with the trend towards more personalized, data-driven flying experiences, New Territory is keen to add facial recognition technology to the mix too. > The idea is that as the seat wing recognizes that you've fallen asleep, it'll automatically turn off the movie playing on your IFE. This could be the worst idea ever. Have cameras pointed at every flyer for the duration of the flight, for the incredibly minor benefit of stopping your movie? To me this sounds like they wanted to add facial recognition regardless, so they found a problem to their solution.
- mappu 7y ago
  > Have cameras pointed at every flyer for the duration of the flight, for the incredibly minor benefit of stopping your movie? I flew on an Emirates A380 recently that had a front-facing camera in the IFE system. I'm not sure what its intended purpose was - perhaps to allow video calls? I had no way to tell if it was in-use during the flight, but i assume there were already other cameras in the main passenger cabin with sufficient resolution to tell whether someone's eyes are open.
  - samstave 7y ago
    Eventually AI will be watching your stress level mannerisms and micro-expressions to determine if youre a risk to the flight.
    - ddalex 7y ago
      In the beginning, yes. But after a short while the AI would carefully watch you while playing non-skippable ads to gauge how to maximize revenue per customer.
    - 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
      Unless you're a medieval king with 200 servants it's difficult to imagine yes. Maybe when someone is disabled? But then again sound would be enough.
danans 7y ago
Any improvement to airline seats is welcome, but this won't address the biggest comfort issue for me which is the prolonged pressure on the posterior caused hours of sitting. I feel like airplane seats could benefit by using elements of office chair design.
- Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
  If that's your main issue, you're very lucky... I wish I could worry about my posterior, but the constant pressure on the knees by the seat in front and the desperate search for a position where my legs will fit keep all my attention. Sleeping is a pipe dream, of course. When I see headlines like this I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Airlines need a seat pitch regulation. (and before anyone mentions that I could just pay more... no, I work at the public sector and our regulations don't let us to pay for any extras in planes because "austerity" and all that).
  - samstave 7y ago
    How tall are you?
    - jki275 7y ago
      Anyone over 6' has this problem.
    - Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
      197 cm (6' 5"). Very tall, although there are still people who have it worse...
      - nostrebored 7y ago
        Also 1.97m and it's truly miserable flying in most planes. I've come to terms with the fact that I will not sleep on flights.
  - topkai22 7y ago
    I've always found the knees hitting the seat thing an amazing variation of human anatomy. My wife is 6' tall with long legs and will have 3 or more inches to spare on leg room, while I know people shorter than 5'10" who constantly complain about their knees hitting the seat in front of them. It does seem like truly exceptionally tall people would have a reasonable disability accommodation claim to be put in premium economy if they really can't fit their legs in.
meremortals 7y ago
I'd sit on someone's lap every flight to replace roomier seats with a massive parachute and airbags
rock_artist 7y ago
This pretty much seems like a fragile 'patch' that workaround small issue that concerns: - People that having hard time sleeping in couch would most likely be more sensitive even in 'premium' seats. - This still not solve the REAL debate of whether bending your seat should be event allowed since it reduces the other passengers space unless he's also going with the domino...
cryptozeus 7y ago
I have given up on airlines doing right by the customers, I simply pay more for premium economy seats now.
goseeastarwar 7y ago
Those seats with wings better be vinyl, otherwise there's going to be a lot of drool that's impossible to clean between flights.
pulse7 7y ago
It would be even better if those "padded wings" would be positioned just in the head range and not in the elbow area. (In elbow area we are much wider and those "wings" would limit us.)
jon889 7y ago
It's really easy to claim to make it easier to sleep in economy by adding a chair from short haul business class.. This doesn't fit in at all with making the seats as light and thin as possible to save weight and increase available space (for more legroom or more seats) A much cheaper, smaller and simpler option would just have to have the head rest paddings that have small foldable wings that exist already on slightly more expensive airlines or premium economy.
- Ninn 7y ago
  Personally i dont feel like the flipping head rests provides enough support, to my head at all, and even less enough to support my bosy, so i really think the design here has some merits in this regard!
  - ghaff 7y ago
    Yeah. They're better than nothing but not by a lot. My general solution is just to avoid red-eyes as much as possible these days (or upgrade) but it's not always possible.
- isoskeles 7y ago
  I hate those headrests. They force my neck forward into an unnatural position making it impossible to sleep that way. I’d prefer no headrest at all. If I am serious about sleeping on a flight, I have to rest forward on the food tray. This is also impossible sometimes, depending on the space and whether the seat is reclined. Anyway, that’s just me. I’m not saying an airplane should be tailored to my personal needs. I just don’t think there’s a solution that satisfies everyone or aside from bunk beds, and good luck with that.
  - fiblye 7y ago
    Exact same situation. I can't imagine how people can find headrests in airplane comfortable unless they're leaning back at a 180 degree angle and just using it as a pillow, or they have a completely flat head. For people with round noggins, it just pushes our heads forward. Even trying to lean my seat back with the generous 2 degrees of space given, my head still tilts forward. Then right when I start dozing off, I get caught in a wake-sleep 60 second loop where I'm just about to fall asleep, but my head drops (since it's being pushed forward and my muscles spontaneously relax), then my body instantly wakes up to pull my head back up. This cycle gives me incredible neck pain. They're torture devices. Just give me a flat seat with a slight lean back. The pictures in the article look good, but I know they're going to find some way to screw it up. They have to in order to push people to business class.
aj7 7y ago
Those seats are way wider than economy, whether it’s 3-3, 2-3-2, 3-4-3, or whatever.
zhte415 7y ago
To drop some personal anecdote.. By far the best sleep I've had on an aircraft was an Alitalia flight in the early 2000s, a 747 from Italy to Hong Kong, economy class. The upholstery was thin worn-down carpet, the seat felt like plywood with metal reinforcements in important places, hopes of in-flight entertainment were confined to headphones operated by a wheel-dial fixed the the seat, there was nothing as fancy as a button. But it was spacious, spacious enough to allow use of its utilitarian space having a nice sleep. An unlikely benchmark, but a benchmark for getting it right. A simple seat, space to adjust legs, and an adjustable headrest. That's all. I am happy with carpet, plastic/fake leather padding is sticky and therefore uncomfortable, as well as taking up precious millimeters which add up. Carpet is fine.
- Nitramp 7y ago
  Actual space on a plane is very expensive compared to making the seat look nicer (while still the same cramped). So it's unlikely you'll get to repeat that experience much in the future, unless you're willing to pay for business.
- ajmurmann 7y ago
  This reminds me of my favorite pet peeve with international flights. Even in economy you have more space for yourself and more storage space than on a domestic flight. However, they try to be nice and give you so much extra stuff like blankets, pillows, socks (!), sometimes even a little vanity kit with toothbrush and creams. Between that and all the brochures they cram into the little storage space that's available everything is crowded again. I wish we could at least get rid of the magazines and catalogs. Maybe I just travel with too much stuff that I want easily available during a long flight...
- moftz 7y ago
  Plastic/fake leather is easier to clean. Cloth seats will smell, will stain, and can even hold lice. I'd rather have the plastic material I can give a quick wipe down on before resting my head against it. The in-flight entertainment is nice but I could do with just a USB port to keep my phone or tablet going. Half the time the headphone jacks for the TVs are on the armrest in such a way that you risk breaking your cable because it sticks into your sitting area rather out the end of the armrest. Airlines are doing the thing now where there are no TVs and all of the movies are accessed via WiFi.
WalterBright 7y ago
I've tried leaning my head against the window frame, but was worried that the vibration would scramble my brains while I slept. All the seats need is wings for the headrest so I don't wake up as my head falls the instant I go to sleep.
- GordonS 7y ago
  > I've tried leaning my head against the window frame, but was worried that the vibration would scramble my brains while I slept Hah, yeah, I've tried this too, but the vibrations make my nose and the inside of my ears tickle like hell! > All the seats need is wings for the headrest so I don't wake up as my head falls the instant I go to sleep Hmm, so, I've sat in seats that have had small "wings" at the side before, but the seats were still so upright that my head would still fall - what's needed is "wings", and a slight recline.
- jfengel 7y ago
  A lot of seats do have headrest wings. Sometimes they're on hinges, and it may not be obvious that they're there.
khazhoux 7y ago
These better-seat design exercises have popped in the news for 20 years, at least. I'm not gonna hold my breath.
- gefh 7y ago
  Exactly. Everyone's taking this article at face value, but it's an empty design exercise, not linked to any airline, with no cost constraints, that will never see the light of day.
ehnto 7y ago
The real reason I take the window seat is so that I can rest my head with a blanket on the plane's interior panels.
crispweed 7y ago
How about something like this: https://www.asailorslifeforme.org/educator/primary/PS-Plan-of-UpperDeck.pdf https://www.asailorslifeforme.org/educator/primary/PS-Plan-o... ?
phil9987 7y ago
Love it. Finally somebody questions the status quo of the economy class. I wonder how this new design competes in terms of price and weight? In the end I doubt that airlines are willing to pay more for economy.
vincnetas 7y ago
I really liked seats arrangement in Helsinki public buses. Not sure how popular are they. But basic idea is that in a paired seat you have one seat shifted a bit to back. Because of that if there are two people sitting they don't rub their shoulders to one another and it feels much more spacious. Only picture that i could find : https://depressingfinland.tumblr.com/post/59672293951/234937289-bus-seats-in-finland-for-the https://depressingfinland.tumblr.com/post/59672293951/234937...
- kieckerjan 7y ago
  Now that is a really smart design hack!
- Jolter 7y ago
  The older model streetcars in Gothenburg, Sweden, have the same arrangement. These are from the 60s and are still in use.
- 0xcafecafe 7y ago
  Is the asocial behavior documented in the blog typical of Finland?
  - coldpie 7y ago
    That's not asocial behavior, that's good public transit etiquette.
  - aasasd 7y ago
    Judge for yourself: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RqdkHLU3G3E/Uy2b1KyScQI/AAAAAAAAAdU/FvTmSc39lPE/s1600/finnish_bus_stop.png http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RqdkHLU3G3E/Uy2b1KyScQI/AAAAAAAAAd... http://finnishness.blogs.tamk.fi/files/2017/09/bussipysakki-jono-tampere-1024x576.jpg http://finnishness.blogs.tamk.fi/files/2017/09/bussipysakki-... https://www.linkbcit.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Finland-bus-stop.jpg https://www.linkbcit.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Finland-b... https://finnishcrashcourse.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/fpv0whf.jpg https://finnishcrashcourse.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/fpv0w...
  - 7y ago
kelnos 7y ago
This would certainly make things more comfortable for me in general, but I doubt I'd be able to sleep: the real issue for me is that I just can't sleep in a seated position unless I'm exceptionally tired (like, have been awake for more than 24 hours straight tired).
rsp1984 7y ago
On long distance flights I always use the following hack in economy: I take the armrest separating me from my neighbor and tilt it almost fully up, so it forms about a 15 deg angle with the seat back. Now it's a headrest! Then I take the pillow, fold it and stick it in between the armrest and my head so I can lean comfortably. Of course this requires kindly asking for permission from the seat neighbor. But most don't really care about the armrest as it doesn't provide enough space for two arms anyway.
- mdtusz 7y ago
  On any plane I've been on, the armrest barely reaches my shoulder when in the up position. I have no idea how you can manage this.
ian0 7y ago
Id honestly be happy with a headband attached the headrest that would stop my head from dropping when I fall asleep. The cushions on either side only work if the seat is very reclined, else you just keep slipping forward.
mnw21cam 7y ago
Some pictures would help. Most airline seats I have used for the last few years have had wings - how are these different?
cpcallen 7y ago
I'd love one of these wingback armchairs to sleep in—but I'd settle for more widespread use of the circa-2000 British Airways economy class seats with their three-part headrest, the outermost parts of which would fold down and forwards to create a very effective side headrest: http://benjaminjtravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Trip-Report-British-Airways-Economy-Class-Boston-to-London-Heathrow-LHR-7.jpg http://benjaminjtravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Trip-R... Their newer planes (and those on many airlines) have headrests that fold with a vertical hinge, but these invariably cause my head to tip forward when I fall asleep, waking me up again (if the hinge is even stiff enough not to just fold flat again when I lean against it).
- cmonnow 7y ago
  I have a smaller than average head. The 2 vertical side folds are too wide to prevent my head from sagging off to left/right, not to mention forward of course. Lack of static head position is the biggest hindrance to sleeping seated. Back-Inclination, Leg-Space, Arm-Rest are all secondary. If you're tired enough, a head-harness is enough to catch a solid 4-hr nap.
mapcars 7y ago
Hahahah, no way, I never thought I would live to this day :D
chooseaname 7y ago
Wait, how are they going to get the wings on these economy class seats? https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1419537 https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1419537
vxNsr 7y ago
Idk what economy cabins these people are sitting in but those seats look at least business-sized to me. No US airline will be sticking something that big in economy. And facial-recog? Airlines are moving away from putting anything in the seat-backs at all and now you wanna put expensive camera tech in there?
- xienze 7y ago
  That's exactly what I was thinking. This seems like a rich person's idea of what "economy" seating is, having never sat in one of those seats for the past couple decades.
- sdferdfs 7y ago
  They'll find out some way to sell/use the data and the cameras will pay for themselves. Besides, if airlines are ripping out TVs, relatively low capital cost, from backseats of very expensive aircraft I doubt its because of the cost of the TVs. Maybe the TVs need hefty wiring for the power. Maybe they break often with kids punching them. But the cameras might not have that many problems, and therefore be cheap (besides, with a a wide angle lens, one can deal with many passengers)
  - alistairSH 7y ago
    Weight is the primary motivator for removing setback entertainment systems. Why have them, when most passengers have iPads or laptops. A WAP weighs less than several hundred "TV" screens and the supporting wiring.
  - vxNsr 7y ago
    The primary reason I heard was the copper, apparently the weight of the screen is minimal compared to the wiring it takes to set up each seat, I doubt a camera would be any different.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  The seats are big but not that big. They pulled the ol' "everything looks bigger with a small woman for scale" trick. Look at the picture of the guy sitting in the seat facing away from the camera. It looks like he's leaning right in order to fit in the chair and they moved the camera to the ~4:00 position in order to make that not show. They might not be "true economy" small but these seats certainly aren't large.
excalibur 7y ago
If it weren't for the screens on the back of the seats these photos could be 40 years old.
turk73 7y ago
I hate what flying has become. It's sick. The pricing is sick, airports are sick, it's all sick.
ChuckMcM 7y ago
Interesting but they should try them with oversized passengers as well. I’m guessing that it will increase the level of discomfort for passengers that are wider than the typical narrow seat even more.
- diego 7y ago
  If you're too big then you just don't fold them forward and it remains a regular seat. I don't see the loss.
  - ChuckMcM 7y ago
    If the person beside a large person deploys the wing, how does that work?
soapboxrocket 7y ago
Either they hired a very petite woman for the photos are these seats are way wider than the current standard. But I do have a fun fact as to why airplane seats are too narrow. When they first started standardizing the seat width, the measured individuals hips to determine the seat width. The idea was that: ass goes in seat. The problem was that our shoulders tend to be wider than our hips. By the time the issue was discovered it was too late to make the seats wider. I have no valid reason for why seats are still getting more narrow other than the airlines are greedy bastards barley making a profit.
- notjustanymike 7y ago
  I think you could start with your last sentence first.
- smnrchrds 7y ago
  She is the reporter who wrote this column. She is hired by CNN, not the manufacturer of the seats. https://twitter.com/fl_street?lang=en https://twitter.com/fl_street?lang=en
chadlavi 7y ago
as a very broad shouldered individual, I suspect I will viscerally hate those "wings" on the seat if I ever encounter them. That small woman looks quite comfortable in the photos, but what about a 2m tall man?
wstuartcl 7y ago
They need to get rid of the recline or have laws governing a sane distance between seatback and the next seats worst case distance. As someone that is 6'5" I literally have my knees fixed to the seatback in front of me and feet off the ground in most airlines economy seats -- the person in front of me choosing to go back even an inch means my kneecaps are bruised.
- mattferderer 7y ago
  I've found most people don't enjoy being knee'd in the back constantly every time I move. I tend to more more frequently when uncomfortable due to my no leg space becoming negative leg space.
crazygringo 7y ago
Wow, I can’t believe how dismissive most of the comments here are. The idea of adding folding wings to existing seat dimensions could be a huge, huge improvement for sleeping on flights. No, it’s not changing or solving anything else. Yes the model is tiny. No this isn’t solving existing recline issues if you’re 6’5”. If you have incredibly broad shoulders then you might not be able to use the wings but you can still leave them folded up and it’s the same as now. But this is still an improvement. This is a site for hackers looking to improve things. This feels like a really clever seat hack to me. Can we actually just appreciate that it could be an improvement, rather than just rail on airline seat sizes? This is making seats better not worse.
- rpiguy 7y ago
  Let's say this adds 10 pounds to each seat times 150-400 seats. No way the airlines would go for it they are trying to cut weight from the planes to scrape every ounce of fuel economy out of the airframe. It is a non-starter. Airlines also have zero incentive to increase passenger comfort because most airlines operate near capacity (all flights full/overbooked) on most routes because of deregulation. You have no alternative, so why would they spend money? The best time to fly was immediately after 9/11. Airlines were failing because people stopped flying. Half of every flight was empty, and the airlines were fighting for your business adding technology, entertainment, and cutting fares. The airlines cared about you when they had to fight for your business. Within 10 years they were profitable again, at capacity again, and massively started to cut services (food, baggage, etc.) In no way am I advocating another 9/11 just to be clear. I am only reflecting on my own experiences flying.
  - AJ007 7y ago
    2009 was pretty good too. During the next major recession/depression the cut back on both business and vacation travelers will be significant. Which, I think is ok to advocate for given we are now in the longest expansion in US history.
    - menssen 7y ago
ShakataGaNai 7y ago
I know it's been bashed to death, but it's funny they'd think the facial recognition thing would be "OK". Just a few months ago there was a big uproar ( https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/airplane-seatback-cameras-letter/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/airplane-seatback-cameras... ) when someone finally noticed a bunch of the in-seat entertainment systems had a camera lens. This wasn't anything new (and they didn't even work) but the antics even got senators involved. So why do some IFE have cameras that aren't used? Because the manufacturers are just slapping android tablets (sans case) into the back of the seats.
fortran77 7y ago
It also keeps a passenger of size from spilling over into another person's seat. I think this is an improvement. And even if the passenger of size can't use the flaps, the passenger next to him can use them as a barricade.
pdx_flyer 7y ago
I think the seat is meant to be a Premium Economy seat, not regular coach.
mattferderer 7y ago
I like it but how about some other easy random wins that don't effect required space but due increase user experience. A vertical tray that comes out under the arm rest to prevent "man spreading" of legs & allows both passengers to rest their leg against without awkward leg touching. Get rid of the reclining seats. They piss off whoever is behind them. It screws with their video & trays. I don't even need to mention the poor person's knees if they're above average height.
MEGMAIL 7y ago
Sometimes small changes can make a big difference!
Topgamer7 7y ago
I would love for some seat innovation in the airline industry, although I don't think sitting off kilter leaning to the side will feel good in the long run. I am pretty sitting posture sensitive.
SubiculumCode 7y ago
6'4" and miserable knees.
yalogin 7y ago
My only worry is airlines will make this an upgrade. Economy "special" or something like that to charge $100 more per seat. We already have quite a few sub classes in economy.
vernie 7y ago
I wish airlines would just pump knockout gas into the cabin so I can skip the whole flight experience.
fnord77 7y ago
the models show a 2x2 seat configuration. Most cattle-class seating is 3x3. Will this work with 3 seats across?
secfirstmd 7y ago
As someone who travels a lot long haul for work and always in economy. I highly recommend the J-Pillow. It solves one of the major problems of sleeping on flights which is that your chin drops forward and wakes you up. Also that you often get neck strain.

299 points by prostoalex 7y ago

> In fitting with the trend towards more personalized, data-driven flying experiences, New Territory is keen to add facial recognition technology to the mix too. Wow, marketing fluff much? They just want to add something to check for closed eyes. Not exactly facial recognition.

uncoder0 7y ago
Seems like a normal PR piece turned into an 'article' in modern online journalism. If these new seats actually help people sleep better it's great. Economy vs Business is not even comparable in terms of ability to sleep at least in terms of trans-Atlantic. I was lucky enough to get 2 trans-Atlantic (from midwest) trips in business where I had previously done economy normally and it was so relaxing and easy to sleep, for me.
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
It’s tough to defend CNN... but it has to recognize faces to do that right? :)
- Johnny555 7y ago
  Depends on what you mean by "recognize faces". It has to recognize that it's seeing a face and eyes, but it doesn't need to recognize that the face belongs to John Smith, Frequent Flyer #0123456789
  - boring_twenties 7y ago
    What exactly is the privacy risk there? The airline already knows who is sitting in the seat, and also their ff#
    - AlphaSite 7y ago
      Who wants a camera pointed at their face for potentially 20+ hours?
      - imgabe 7y ago
        People who use laptops all day?
        squeaky-clean 7y ago
        I'd be willing to bet that a majority of HN readers have tape over their webcams.
    - kortilla 7y ago
      Breastfeeding
    - sandoooo 7y ago
      "Top 20 politicians from <party you don't like> looking stupid in long-haul flights". How do they know which party that would be? Facial recognition, obviously.
      - boring_twenties 7y ago
        Wait, are you trying to talk me out of it or sell me on it?
- jedberg 7y ago
  I think people generally consider facial recognition meaning to recognize your face, not just that one exists.
  - kodablah 7y ago
    This is one of those rare cases where it's helpful to conflate the two since, when considering privacy implications, the tolerance of one begets the other. In other words, recognition of individual facial features should be treated with as much caution as individual facial recognition.
- jobigoud 7y ago
  It just has to detect them.

luxuryballs 7y ago

“As long as you can make it cheaper and able to fit more total passengers than the boring regular seat then we have a deal.” - Mr. Airline

Animats 7y ago
That's the stand-up seat.[1] [1] https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/standing-up-airplane-seat-testing/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/standing-up-airplane-seat...
- RodgerTheGreat 7y ago
  The real grift is that despite the claims in that article, we all know what will really happen to the prices: standing seats will cost what economy seats used to, and every other tier bumps up.
  - tcoff91 7y ago
    The cost of flying has gone down significantly over time so I would not be so sure about that.
    - eagsalazar2 7y ago
      The price per square inch of human space has probably stayed the same after inflation adjustment. People on average are just more likely to buy cheaper seats than more room, so by natural selection we get smaller seats.
      - larnmar 7y ago
        Fares have come down in absolute dollar terms (let alone inflation adjusted) over the last twenty years, while economy seat sizes have barely changed. What has changed is yield management — airlines have got much better at flying with as few empty seats as possible. So the main thing that has gone down to allow prices to decrease in real terms is your chance of getting an empty seat next to you.

ccamrobertson 7y ago

Those look like Premium Economy seats based on their generous width, not the crushing 17"-and-change width of typical Economy seats.

singron 7y ago
All the pictures are of women in the seats. Men often have broader shoulders and larger upper arms. If I sit next to another man, we sometimes make contact on the upper arms for most the flight. The wings seem to take up a couple inches themselves, so it could become too cramped horizontally to be comfortable.
- grendelt 7y ago
  I laughed at her sitting cross-legged on the bulkhead row. Try that just one row back, sister.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- Mountain_Skies 7y ago
  A friends has been one of those models for airline print ads. She also is incredibly petite due to a digestive issue that keeps her from digesting calories and nutrients properly. It's a bit disturbing that she's so popular for that type of advertising.
- Nursie 7y ago
  Yup, she's tiny and those wings look like they take up a whole bunch of shoulder-space.
- bitexploder 7y ago
  As a person with very broad shoulders... I cringed when I saw these seats, heh. Usually I fold in a little bit for larger people, but on Southwest other large people get the idea that sitting next to me might not be a comfortable experience for either of us and avoid me. And if someone is being ride and I expand my shoulders they can literally be in 1/4 to 1/3 of my neighbors seat. Oh you leaned forward? Allow me to show you my true form, heh. Usually get seats with extra leg room and use that to occupy less space and not make my seat neighbor uncomfortable.

Ericson2314 7y ago

I always lean forward on the tray table. I find resting my head / getting it horizontal is far more important than anything for the rest of my body. Is this just me? I get the sense that very little is optimized for this. The next person reclining their seat makes it harder to fit my head on the tray table, for example. Conflicting resting positions!

hetman 7y ago
I'm the same but I'm finding there's simply not enough room to fold over like this on newer airliners.
decebalus1 7y ago
Not just you. I'm fairly large so I can't lean forward on the tray table, but the only way I can sleep in an airplane is to lean forward on the front seat while resting my head on my arms (like this https://external-preview.redd.it/W6xGQW43ROL6XltdnBo1MbMO4EJVYujmznCH7ntYRgw.jpg?auto=webp&s=c41165a68aa343189b494ad121ddaa8685a0d7e4 https://external-preview.redd.it/W6xGQW43ROL6XltdnBo1MbMO4EJ... but imagine my arms on top of the seat in front, my head on top of my arms). I actually prefer it when the seat in front of me is reclined.. makes it super comfortable for me to get some shut eye.
Zarath 7y ago
I do the same thing, but eventually it becomes uncomfortable on my folded arms and they fall asleep. Or the person in front of me leans back and crushes my head...
- yibg 7y ago
  What if there was a cushion on the back of the seat in front of you? Something that you can rest your head on at an angle. I’ve though about this and although I haven’t tried it I feel like that’ll be more comfortable for me.

tyingq 7y ago

What I'd rather see is designs that make the middle seat more palatable. There are more aircraft with 3 seats on each side now. It's not perfect, but ideas that make the middle seat better via dedicated armrests, or offsetting it slightly back, would be welcome. One supplier with some decent ideas: https://www.airlineseats.biz/for-passengers https://www.airlineseats.biz/for-passengers

TuringNYC 7y ago
+1 It baffles me that non-middle seat passengers try to assert rights to middle seat armrests and consider themselves justified.
- kortilla 7y ago
  That seemed to get more common around the time picking the seat became a luxury add-on (e.g. basic economy vs economy on the US major carriers). Once folks felt they paid more for their aisle/window, they stopped caring about entitlements for the person in the middle.
- why-oh-why 7y ago
  I wonder if any of you ever tried sitting on the aisle. It’s a hazard there, constantly being hit by anything and anyone who passes by. No way I’m “resting” on that armrest and therefore I’ll lean towards the middle seat.
  - isoskeles 7y ago
    Do you prefer the middle seat to the aisle?
    - why-oh-why 7y ago
      I think so. Aisle lets you get up anytime you want, but also forces you to get up twice as much as the middle seat. But mainly in the middle seat you never have to be afraid of people bumping into you, which affects you for most of the flight.

crimsonalucard 7y ago

The sitting position occupies a cubic volume with dead space below the butt and above the lap. If you want to put more people in the plane, make them lie down and place the lie down spaces on top of each other and side by side. I'd be down to fly in an airplane like that which by logic should have cheaper air fares because of more people on the plane. It's the perfect sleeping position. The problem is Would you rather be lying down all the time or sitting down all the time? Overall I prefer lying down because I have the option of sleeping and staying awake while lying down; while when sitting, I have the option of staying awake and a really hard time getting some shut eye.

eagsalazar2 7y ago
How would you get up to go pee? How could you eat pretzels without getting them all over yourself?
- crimsonalucard 7y ago
  I've eaten while lying down. It works. Also to get out to go to pee, it's the same as sitting down. Basically everyone has to roll or slither out of the lie down spot for the inner person to get out.
zaroth 7y ago
FAA regulations require the ability to evacuate the cabin in 90 seconds.
- jeffwilcox 7y ago
  90 seconds as measured by non-realistic volunteers in Toulouse and/or Everett who aren't actually afraid for their lives :(
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    I'm not sure if you think that people afraid for their lives would be faster or slower.

greggman2 7y ago

wish they made double or triple decker capsule hotel style beds for long flights.

ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
I’d love a capsule-hotel-style option. I don’t care how cramped it is. I feel like you could stack some bunks that take up the same cubic-space-per-seat as existing seats. I only need enough space to lie sideways with my phone in front of my face and a USB port and I’d travel a lot lot more. Context: Physically disabled and have issues sitting on chairs for longer than 1-2hrs before my legs are in excruciating pain, but also, before I had this issue I would’ve loved a submarine-bunk option.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > I only need enough space to lie sideways with my phone in front of my face This sounds like it'd get a lot more uncomfortable than sitting pretty quickly.
  - ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
    Each to their own. I sleep on my side so that’s all the space I’d need to rest and read or watch something on my phone for a while then sleep for the rest of the trip. I’d rather sleep through flights than sit uncomfortably crammed into the pathetically small chairs they give you these days.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      Beds in Asia often don’t have a lot of padding, they aren’t designed for side sleepers, you would be on your back quickly. Incidentally, a wooden chinese bed will cure you of side sleeping in a few days if you ever want to go that route. I found my sleep was better, but I reverted back to side sleeping quickly after getting to use a normal western bed again (after about six months of using the Chinese bed).
    - 7y ago

mberning 7y ago

No way that is an economy cabin. And they chose a very petite model to sit in the chair. Economy is only going to become more miserable over time as people become taller and wider and airlines continue their war of attrition for low fares.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
International long haul economy can be a bit roomier than domestic. Can see this workin really well for someone like Air New Zealand whose routes are almost all long hauls.

ggm 7y ago

Looks like a fundamentally acceptable design change, which will probably be white-anted out of deployment on cost, or fashion grounds. I think seating in airlines demands regulation. I don't think we will see change here without it, because unlike Premium Economy and Business, where pricing differentiation justifies the spend (the increase in revenue outweighs the engineering costs significantly: Aircraft would be viable long haul solely based on Business and Premium already) there is no pricepoint increase in economy the airlines are willing to make, without being obligated to make it.

nanokilo 7y ago
On the other hand, if an airline offered these seats, I'd definitely choose them over the competition. Better seats might not drive more seat upgrades, but it might drive more traffic to your airline.
- ggm 7y ago
  Absolutely agree. If the marginal cost of this on a seat during a refit which has to happen anyway is low, could happen and could be a deal-breaker once word leaks out. Cathay made economy cramped, people went to Emirates. This could be a fight back move to regain lost market share?
TheGallopedHigh 7y ago
White-anted? Never heard this term before.
- ggm 7y ago
  Sorry, accidentally used an Australianism. It means putting up a million minor issues behind your back and generally eroding belief in things like white ants (termites) attacking a wooden stump on your house. Secretly undermining.
  - chrisfinne 7y ago
    similar to "death by bunny-bites" but I like the additional concept of "secretly undermining"

andrewfromx 7y ago

isn't the real issue the space is limited because jet fuel is too expensive? Both in dollars to get it and cost to planet earth. Seems like the space available for seats per dollar spent will get much better with EPA or NPA (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21436838 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21436838) and NPA with the stuff happening at places like https://terrapower.com/ https://terrapower.com/ seems very promising.

wp381640 7y ago
I once worked with someone who was perviously a consultant to a large airline and they dropped the size of their inflight magazine ~20 years ago to save weight and then were amongst the first airlines to drop it all together for the same reason They figured out the $ they would save p.a with every change of page length, paper weight, etc. (it was partially offset by advertisers and onboard sales but not enough) I can't recall the exact numbers but they were significant enough to warrant expensive external suits who eat their lunches at their desks doing the calculations and going ahead with it
- mcbain 7y ago
  There are listicles with these kinds of stats every now and then (and I’m usually a sucker for them), like this one: https://www.traveller.com.au/airline-weight-reduction-to-save-fuel-the-crazy-ways-airlines-save-weight-on-planes-h14vlh https://www.traveller.com.au/airline-weight-reduction-to-sav... Scaling any kind of issue changes things dramatically.
  - spyckie2 7y ago
    thanks, appreciated this article more than the parent.

oceliker 7y ago

> The designers are considering adding facial recognition technology to the design. Um, what > In fitting with the trend towards more personalized, data-driven flying experiences, New Territory is keen to add facial recognition technology to the mix too. > The idea is that as the seat wing recognizes that you've fallen asleep, it'll automatically turn off the movie playing on your IFE. This could be the worst idea ever. Have cameras pointed at every flyer for the duration of the flight, for the incredibly minor benefit of stopping your movie? To me this sounds like they wanted to add facial recognition regardless, so they found a problem to their solution.

mappu 7y ago
> Have cameras pointed at every flyer for the duration of the flight, for the incredibly minor benefit of stopping your movie? I flew on an Emirates A380 recently that had a front-facing camera in the IFE system. I'm not sure what its intended purpose was - perhaps to allow video calls? I had no way to tell if it was in-use during the flight, but i assume there were already other cameras in the main passenger cabin with sufficient resolution to tell whether someone's eyes are open.
- samstave 7y ago
  Eventually AI will be watching your stress level mannerisms and micro-expressions to determine if youre a risk to the flight.
  - ddalex 7y ago
    In the beginning, yes. But after a short while the AI would carefully watch you while playing non-skippable ads to gauge how to maximize revenue per customer.
  - 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
    Unless you're a medieval king with 200 servants it's difficult to imagine yes. Maybe when someone is disabled? But then again sound would be enough.

danans 7y ago

Any improvement to airline seats is welcome, but this won't address the biggest comfort issue for me which is the prolonged pressure on the posterior caused hours of sitting. I feel like airplane seats could benefit by using elements of office chair design.

Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
If that's your main issue, you're very lucky... I wish I could worry about my posterior, but the constant pressure on the knees by the seat in front and the desperate search for a position where my legs will fit keep all my attention. Sleeping is a pipe dream, of course. When I see headlines like this I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Airlines need a seat pitch regulation. (and before anyone mentions that I could just pay more... no, I work at the public sector and our regulations don't let us to pay for any extras in planes because "austerity" and all that).
- samstave 7y ago
  How tall are you?
  - jki275 7y ago
    Anyone over 6' has this problem.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
    197 cm (6' 5"). Very tall, although there are still people who have it worse...
    - nostrebored 7y ago
      Also 1.97m and it's truly miserable flying in most planes. I've come to terms with the fact that I will not sleep on flights.
- topkai22 7y ago
  I've always found the knees hitting the seat thing an amazing variation of human anatomy. My wife is 6' tall with long legs and will have 3 or more inches to spare on leg room, while I know people shorter than 5'10" who constantly complain about their knees hitting the seat in front of them. It does seem like truly exceptionally tall people would have a reasonable disability accommodation claim to be put in premium economy if they really can't fit their legs in.

meremortals 7y ago

I'd sit on someone's lap every flight to replace roomier seats with a massive parachute and airbags

rock_artist 7y ago

This pretty much seems like a fragile 'patch' that workaround small issue that concerns: - People that having hard time sleeping in couch would most likely be more sensitive even in 'premium' seats. - This still not solve the REAL debate of whether bending your seat should be event allowed since it reduces the other passengers space unless he's also going with the domino...

cryptozeus 7y ago

I have given up on airlines doing right by the customers, I simply pay more for premium economy seats now.

goseeastarwar 7y ago

Those seats with wings better be vinyl, otherwise there's going to be a lot of drool that's impossible to clean between flights.

pulse7 7y ago

It would be even better if those "padded wings" would be positioned just in the head range and not in the elbow area. (In elbow area we are much wider and those "wings" would limit us.)

jon889 7y ago

It's really easy to claim to make it easier to sleep in economy by adding a chair from short haul business class.. This doesn't fit in at all with making the seats as light and thin as possible to save weight and increase available space (for more legroom or more seats) A much cheaper, smaller and simpler option would just have to have the head rest paddings that have small foldable wings that exist already on slightly more expensive airlines or premium economy.

Ninn 7y ago
Personally i dont feel like the flipping head rests provides enough support, to my head at all, and even less enough to support my bosy, so i really think the design here has some merits in this regard!
- ghaff 7y ago
  Yeah. They're better than nothing but not by a lot. My general solution is just to avoid red-eyes as much as possible these days (or upgrade) but it's not always possible.
isoskeles 7y ago
I hate those headrests. They force my neck forward into an unnatural position making it impossible to sleep that way. I’d prefer no headrest at all. If I am serious about sleeping on a flight, I have to rest forward on the food tray. This is also impossible sometimes, depending on the space and whether the seat is reclined. Anyway, that’s just me. I’m not saying an airplane should be tailored to my personal needs. I just don’t think there’s a solution that satisfies everyone or aside from bunk beds, and good luck with that.
- fiblye 7y ago
  Exact same situation. I can't imagine how people can find headrests in airplane comfortable unless they're leaning back at a 180 degree angle and just using it as a pillow, or they have a completely flat head. For people with round noggins, it just pushes our heads forward. Even trying to lean my seat back with the generous 2 degrees of space given, my head still tilts forward. Then right when I start dozing off, I get caught in a wake-sleep 60 second loop where I'm just about to fall asleep, but my head drops (since it's being pushed forward and my muscles spontaneously relax), then my body instantly wakes up to pull my head back up. This cycle gives me incredible neck pain. They're torture devices. Just give me a flat seat with a slight lean back. The pictures in the article look good, but I know they're going to find some way to screw it up. They have to in order to push people to business class.

aj7 7y ago

Those seats are way wider than economy, whether it’s 3-3, 2-3-2, 3-4-3, or whatever.

zhte415 7y ago

To drop some personal anecdote.. By far the best sleep I've had on an aircraft was an Alitalia flight in the early 2000s, a 747 from Italy to Hong Kong, economy class. The upholstery was thin worn-down carpet, the seat felt like plywood with metal reinforcements in important places, hopes of in-flight entertainment were confined to headphones operated by a wheel-dial fixed the the seat, there was nothing as fancy as a button. But it was spacious, spacious enough to allow use of its utilitarian space having a nice sleep. An unlikely benchmark, but a benchmark for getting it right. A simple seat, space to adjust legs, and an adjustable headrest. That's all. I am happy with carpet, plastic/fake leather padding is sticky and therefore uncomfortable, as well as taking up precious millimeters which add up. Carpet is fine.

Nitramp 7y ago
Actual space on a plane is very expensive compared to making the seat look nicer (while still the same cramped). So it's unlikely you'll get to repeat that experience much in the future, unless you're willing to pay for business.
ajmurmann 7y ago
This reminds me of my favorite pet peeve with international flights. Even in economy you have more space for yourself and more storage space than on a domestic flight. However, they try to be nice and give you so much extra stuff like blankets, pillows, socks (!), sometimes even a little vanity kit with toothbrush and creams. Between that and all the brochures they cram into the little storage space that's available everything is crowded again. I wish we could at least get rid of the magazines and catalogs. Maybe I just travel with too much stuff that I want easily available during a long flight...
moftz 7y ago
Plastic/fake leather is easier to clean. Cloth seats will smell, will stain, and can even hold lice. I'd rather have the plastic material I can give a quick wipe down on before resting my head against it. The in-flight entertainment is nice but I could do with just a USB port to keep my phone or tablet going. Half the time the headphone jacks for the TVs are on the armrest in such a way that you risk breaking your cable because it sticks into your sitting area rather out the end of the armrest. Airlines are doing the thing now where there are no TVs and all of the movies are accessed via WiFi.

WalterBright 7y ago

I've tried leaning my head against the window frame, but was worried that the vibration would scramble my brains while I slept. All the seats need is wings for the headrest so I don't wake up as my head falls the instant I go to sleep.

GordonS 7y ago
> I've tried leaning my head against the window frame, but was worried that the vibration would scramble my brains while I slept Hah, yeah, I've tried this too, but the vibrations make my nose and the inside of my ears tickle like hell! > All the seats need is wings for the headrest so I don't wake up as my head falls the instant I go to sleep Hmm, so, I've sat in seats that have had small "wings" at the side before, but the seats were still so upright that my head would still fall - what's needed is "wings", and a slight recline.
jfengel 7y ago
A lot of seats do have headrest wings. Sometimes they're on hinges, and it may not be obvious that they're there.

khazhoux 7y ago

These better-seat design exercises have popped in the news for 20 years, at least. I'm not gonna hold my breath.

gefh 7y ago
Exactly. Everyone's taking this article at face value, but it's an empty design exercise, not linked to any airline, with no cost constraints, that will never see the light of day.

ehnto 7y ago

The real reason I take the window seat is so that I can rest my head with a blanket on the plane's interior panels.

crispweed 7y ago

How about something like this: https://www.asailorslifeforme.org/educator/primary/PS-Plan-of-UpperDeck.pdf https://www.asailorslifeforme.org/educator/primary/PS-Plan-o... ?

phil9987 7y ago

Love it. Finally somebody questions the status quo of the economy class. I wonder how this new design competes in terms of price and weight? In the end I doubt that airlines are willing to pay more for economy.

vincnetas 7y ago

I really liked seats arrangement in Helsinki public buses. Not sure how popular are they. But basic idea is that in a paired seat you have one seat shifted a bit to back. Because of that if there are two people sitting they don't rub their shoulders to one another and it feels much more spacious. Only picture that i could find : https://depressingfinland.tumblr.com/post/59672293951/234937289-bus-seats-in-finland-for-the https://depressingfinland.tumblr.com/post/59672293951/234937...

kieckerjan 7y ago
Now that is a really smart design hack!
Jolter 7y ago
The older model streetcars in Gothenburg, Sweden, have the same arrangement. These are from the 60s and are still in use.
0xcafecafe 7y ago
Is the asocial behavior documented in the blog typical of Finland?
- coldpie 7y ago
  That's not asocial behavior, that's good public transit etiquette.
- aasasd 7y ago
  Judge for yourself: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RqdkHLU3G3E/Uy2b1KyScQI/AAAAAAAAAdU/FvTmSc39lPE/s1600/finnish_bus_stop.png http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RqdkHLU3G3E/Uy2b1KyScQI/AAAAAAAAAd... http://finnishness.blogs.tamk.fi/files/2017/09/bussipysakki-jono-tampere-1024x576.jpg http://finnishness.blogs.tamk.fi/files/2017/09/bussipysakki-... https://www.linkbcit.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Finland-bus-stop.jpg https://www.linkbcit.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Finland-b... https://finnishcrashcourse.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/fpv0whf.jpg https://finnishcrashcourse.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/fpv0w...
- 7y ago

kelnos 7y ago

This would certainly make things more comfortable for me in general, but I doubt I'd be able to sleep: the real issue for me is that I just can't sleep in a seated position unless I'm exceptionally tired (like, have been awake for more than 24 hours straight tired).

rsp1984 7y ago

On long distance flights I always use the following hack in economy: I take the armrest separating me from my neighbor and tilt it almost fully up, so it forms about a 15 deg angle with the seat back. Now it's a headrest! Then I take the pillow, fold it and stick it in between the armrest and my head so I can lean comfortably. Of course this requires kindly asking for permission from the seat neighbor. But most don't really care about the armrest as it doesn't provide enough space for two arms anyway.

mdtusz 7y ago
On any plane I've been on, the armrest barely reaches my shoulder when in the up position. I have no idea how you can manage this.

ian0 7y ago

Id honestly be happy with a headband attached the headrest that would stop my head from dropping when I fall asleep. The cushions on either side only work if the seat is very reclined, else you just keep slipping forward.

mnw21cam 7y ago

Some pictures would help. Most airline seats I have used for the last few years have had wings - how are these different?

cpcallen 7y ago

I'd love one of these wingback armchairs to sleep in—but I'd settle for more widespread use of the circa-2000 British Airways economy class seats with their three-part headrest, the outermost parts of which would fold down and forwards to create a very effective side headrest: http://benjaminjtravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Trip-Report-British-Airways-Economy-Class-Boston-to-London-Heathrow-LHR-7.jpg http://benjaminjtravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Trip-R... Their newer planes (and those on many airlines) have headrests that fold with a vertical hinge, but these invariably cause my head to tip forward when I fall asleep, waking me up again (if the hinge is even stiff enough not to just fold flat again when I lean against it).

cmonnow 7y ago
I have a smaller than average head. The 2 vertical side folds are too wide to prevent my head from sagging off to left/right, not to mention forward of course. Lack of static head position is the biggest hindrance to sleeping seated. Back-Inclination, Leg-Space, Arm-Rest are all secondary. If you're tired enough, a head-harness is enough to catch a solid 4-hr nap.

mapcars 7y ago

Hahahah, no way, I never thought I would live to this day :D

chooseaname 7y ago

Wait, how are they going to get the wings on these economy class seats? https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1419537 https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1419537

vxNsr 7y ago

Idk what economy cabins these people are sitting in but those seats look at least business-sized to me. No US airline will be sticking something that big in economy. And facial-recog? Airlines are moving away from putting anything in the seat-backs at all and now you wanna put expensive camera tech in there?

xienze 7y ago
That's exactly what I was thinking. This seems like a rich person's idea of what "economy" seating is, having never sat in one of those seats for the past couple decades.
sdferdfs 7y ago
They'll find out some way to sell/use the data and the cameras will pay for themselves. Besides, if airlines are ripping out TVs, relatively low capital cost, from backseats of very expensive aircraft I doubt its because of the cost of the TVs. Maybe the TVs need hefty wiring for the power. Maybe they break often with kids punching them. But the cameras might not have that many problems, and therefore be cheap (besides, with a a wide angle lens, one can deal with many passengers)
- alistairSH 7y ago
  Weight is the primary motivator for removing setback entertainment systems. Why have them, when most passengers have iPads or laptops. A WAP weighs less than several hundred "TV" screens and the supporting wiring.
- vxNsr 7y ago
  The primary reason I heard was the copper, apparently the weight of the screen is minimal compared to the wiring it takes to set up each seat, I doubt a camera would be any different.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
The seats are big but not that big. They pulled the ol' "everything looks bigger with a small woman for scale" trick. Look at the picture of the guy sitting in the seat facing away from the camera. It looks like he's leaning right in order to fit in the chair and they moved the camera to the ~4:00 position in order to make that not show. They might not be "true economy" small but these seats certainly aren't large.

excalibur 7y ago

If it weren't for the screens on the back of the seats these photos could be 40 years old.

turk73 7y ago

I hate what flying has become. It's sick. The pricing is sick, airports are sick, it's all sick.

ChuckMcM 7y ago

Interesting but they should try them with oversized passengers as well. I’m guessing that it will increase the level of discomfort for passengers that are wider than the typical narrow seat even more.

diego 7y ago
If you're too big then you just don't fold them forward and it remains a regular seat. I don't see the loss.
- ChuckMcM 7y ago
  If the person beside a large person deploys the wing, how does that work?

soapboxrocket 7y ago

Either they hired a very petite woman for the photos are these seats are way wider than the current standard. But I do have a fun fact as to why airplane seats are too narrow. When they first started standardizing the seat width, the measured individuals hips to determine the seat width. The idea was that: ass goes in seat. The problem was that our shoulders tend to be wider than our hips. By the time the issue was discovered it was too late to make the seats wider. I have no valid reason for why seats are still getting more narrow other than the airlines are greedy bastards barley making a profit.

notjustanymike 7y ago
I think you could start with your last sentence first.
smnrchrds 7y ago
She is the reporter who wrote this column. She is hired by CNN, not the manufacturer of the seats. https://twitter.com/fl_street?lang=en https://twitter.com/fl_street?lang=en

chadlavi 7y ago

as a very broad shouldered individual, I suspect I will viscerally hate those "wings" on the seat if I ever encounter them. That small woman looks quite comfortable in the photos, but what about a 2m tall man?

wstuartcl 7y ago

They need to get rid of the recline or have laws governing a sane distance between seatback and the next seats worst case distance. As someone that is 6'5" I literally have my knees fixed to the seatback in front of me and feet off the ground in most airlines economy seats -- the person in front of me choosing to go back even an inch means my kneecaps are bruised.

mattferderer 7y ago
I've found most people don't enjoy being knee'd in the back constantly every time I move. I tend to more more frequently when uncomfortable due to my no leg space becoming negative leg space.

crazygringo 7y ago

Wow, I can’t believe how dismissive most of the comments here are. The idea of adding folding wings to existing seat dimensions could be a huge, huge improvement for sleeping on flights. No, it’s not changing or solving anything else. Yes the model is tiny. No this isn’t solving existing recline issues if you’re 6’5”. If you have incredibly broad shoulders then you might not be able to use the wings but you can still leave them folded up and it’s the same as now. But this is still an improvement. This is a site for hackers looking to improve things. This feels like a really clever seat hack to me. Can we actually just appreciate that it could be an improvement, rather than just rail on airline seat sizes? This is making seats better not worse.

rpiguy 7y ago
Let's say this adds 10 pounds to each seat times 150-400 seats. No way the airlines would go for it they are trying to cut weight from the planes to scrape every ounce of fuel economy out of the airframe. It is a non-starter. Airlines also have zero incentive to increase passenger comfort because most airlines operate near capacity (all flights full/overbooked) on most routes because of deregulation. You have no alternative, so why would they spend money? The best time to fly was immediately after 9/11. Airlines were failing because people stopped flying. Half of every flight was empty, and the airlines were fighting for your business adding technology, entertainment, and cutting fares. The airlines cared about you when they had to fight for your business. Within 10 years they were profitable again, at capacity again, and massively started to cut services (food, baggage, etc.) In no way am I advocating another 9/11 just to be clear. I am only reflecting on my own experiences flying.
- AJ007 7y ago
  2009 was pretty good too. During the next major recession/depression the cut back on both business and vacation travelers will be significant. Which, I think is ok to advocate for given we are now in the longest expansion in US history.
  - menssen 7y ago

ShakataGaNai 7y ago

I know it's been bashed to death, but it's funny they'd think the facial recognition thing would be "OK". Just a few months ago there was a big uproar ( https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/airplane-seatback-cameras-letter/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/airplane-seatback-cameras... ) when someone finally noticed a bunch of the in-seat entertainment systems had a camera lens. This wasn't anything new (and they didn't even work) but the antics even got senators involved. So why do some IFE have cameras that aren't used? Because the manufacturers are just slapping android tablets (sans case) into the back of the seats.

fortran77 7y ago

It also keeps a passenger of size from spilling over into another person's seat. I think this is an improvement. And even if the passenger of size can't use the flaps, the passenger next to him can use them as a barricade.

pdx_flyer 7y ago

I think the seat is meant to be a Premium Economy seat, not regular coach.

mattferderer 7y ago

I like it but how about some other easy random wins that don't effect required space but due increase user experience. A vertical tray that comes out under the arm rest to prevent "man spreading" of legs & allows both passengers to rest their leg against without awkward leg touching. Get rid of the reclining seats. They piss off whoever is behind them. It screws with their video & trays. I don't even need to mention the poor person's knees if they're above average height.

MEGMAIL 7y ago

Sometimes small changes can make a big difference!

Topgamer7 7y ago

I would love for some seat innovation in the airline industry, although I don't think sitting off kilter leaning to the side will feel good in the long run. I am pretty sitting posture sensitive.

SubiculumCode 7y ago

6'4" and miserable knees.

yalogin 7y ago

My only worry is airlines will make this an upgrade. Economy "special" or something like that to charge $100 more per seat. We already have quite a few sub classes in economy.

vernie 7y ago

I wish airlines would just pump knockout gas into the cabin so I can skip the whole flight experience.

fnord77 7y ago

the models show a 2x2 seat configuration. Most cattle-class seating is 3x3. Will this work with 3 seats across?

secfirstmd 7y ago

As someone who travels a lot long haul for work and always in economy. I highly recommend the J-Pillow. It solves one of the major problems of sleeping on flights which is that your chin drops forward and wakes you up. Also that you often get neck strain.