19 ms·

Why does the Librem 5 phone cost that much?

311 points by fghtr 7y ago

Aeolun 7y ago
I don’t think a $700 phone is terribly expensive. I mean, yes, it is, but as long as they stay below iPhone pricing I don’t see how anyone can complain.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  It's 2x the average phone price, so it's excluding the majority of the market. https://www.vox.com/2018/1/23/16923832/global-smartphone-prices-grew-faster-iphone-quarter https://www.vox.com/2018/1/23/16923832/global-smartphone-pri...
  - tyingq 7y ago
    It's 2x other phones with superior specs, like a Moto G7. It's 3x other phones with similar specs.
- eigenvalue 7y ago
  The real cost in my view is not the price of the phone, it’s in the clunkiness. It’s really thick and looks from the outside like a device from 2005 compared to current phones from Apple and Samsung. I have a hard time believing they will sell enough of them to cover the development cost.
  - marcus_holmes 7y ago
    I think if you're worried about how it looks and not how it works, then you're not in their target market ;)
    - ThatGeoGuy 7y ago
      I would argue the weight factors into this. With Pinephone around the corner, which may very well end up being able to benefit from the work in GNOME (and I do appreciate that part), it seems like Purism might be at risk of that same small, niche market picking up and going over to Pinephone because it offers a better experience _in some ways_. Of course I am supporting both of these projects because my income apparently doesn't matter to me, but I think it's still worth considering that a heavy, chunky phone may be somewhat of a detriment when their target base is already pretty small. Mostly I worry about perfect being the enemy of good, and that Purism will end up going out of business before they can make a v2 which truly surpasses expectations. The existing Librem 5 is definitely a cool step in the right direction, but living long enough to fulfill their ultimate goal (having everyone be able to run and want to use ethical, open, and free as in freedom devices) is also important.
      - marcus_holmes 7y ago
        I'm writing this on one of their laptops. Because, as you say, my income apparently doesn't matter to me and I really want them to succeed. It's actually a good laptop, though, and I love having a native Linux machine (and the styling - I'm a sucker for plain matt black stuff). It feels like early Apple over again. That dancing on the edge between business pragmatism and perfectionism. I can easily see them becoming the "new Apple" in a few years' time. I hope so.
- mattkevan 7y ago
  The Librem is $700 and, at launch, doesn't include basic functionality like calendars, calculators and notes. Sure I'm comparing apples to lemons here, but the first iPhone was $500, twelve years ago, and much more functional.
  - rootlocus 7y ago
    You're comparing apples to gnomes.
  - teddyh 7y ago
    > The Librem […] doesn't include basic functionality like calendars, calculators and notes. From what I can see, this is untrue: Calculator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esYJSNZrQWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esYJSNZrQWc Notes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34XhhVlmYTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34XhhVlmYTU and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEzRgjHaIZo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEzRgjHaIZo It would surprise me if there wasn’t a calendaring program in there, too
    - mattkevan 7y ago
      I'm getting the information directly from the Librem 5 product page[0]: "Upon initial shipment of the Librem 5 in 2019, it will offer the essentials: phone functionality, email, messaging, voice, camera, browsing. Your user experience will improve as we incrementally add commonly requested applications and features (such as calendaring, notes, calculator, PDF viewer, etc.) while keeping performance in mind." [0] https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
      - teddyh 7y ago
        I think I recognize this text from when I read it early on; I would assume that this was written before the relevant Gnome programs (Calculator, Xournal, GEdit, etc.) had been ported to run sensibly on the Librem 5. They should probably update it.
  - marcus_holmes 7y ago
- megous 7y ago
  Unless you plan not to pay taxes on it. For me it would be $860 phone. Comparable phones, like Lenovo K9 for example, cost $125-$150 around here, taxes incl.
cjg 7y ago
Most of the things that they say have caused the high cost are sunk costs in design. Given that the design is open, it should be possible for another company, who doesn't have these sunk costs, to deliver the same phone for less. Does this mean that they have the price wrong? Can selling open designs ever recoup such design costs?
- lallysingh 7y ago
  Of course. This is the basic open source model, only better. You get support from the folks who made the design.
- beatgammit 7y ago
  I don't think they've released their full hardware schematic, right? I imagine they're waiting until they at least hit full production, and perhaps get closer to the next rev. That being said, Pine64 has been able to make a similar device for far less also using their own design, so I'm a little skeptical that hardware design was such a large part of the price. I'm guessing the bulk of it was getting the SoC up and going since Pine64 had similar products that likely make it simpler to design a phone SoC.
- jdnenej 7y ago
  You don't by the phone just for the actual device. You buy it mainly to support the start of actually open source phones. If you wanted a cheap phone you could just by a second hand android phone for dirt cheap
pferde 7y ago
"Trust in closed non-auditable complex computer systems is something everyone has learned the hard way we should not have. The news is full each day of zero day bugs and exploits throughout the stack–from applications to operating systems and even down to the very silicon the whole stuff runs on." If only. I suspect that only tech enthusiasts are aware of these issues. In the meantime, non-technical people only give you weird disbelieving looks when you mention this to them, and then continue ignoring it.
- teddyh 7y ago
  > In the meantime, non-technical people only give you weird disbelieving looks when you mention this to them, and then continue ignoring it. It’s psychological. People can’t believe things which would make it too hard for them to stay the person they currently are. It’s almost impossible for anyone to do anything but ignore and repress such information. If you ask them later about it, they probably would deny even hearing it or having the conversation, because they wouldn’t actually remember it. Ask anyone who tried to convince a sweeping societal change based on logical arguments. See what happened to Ignaz Semmelweis. You simply can’t convince people of hard things with logic.
  - pas 7y ago
    They just do the naive cost-benefit analysis: everyone uses it, successful people use these things, yet no bad things happen to them, why should I really care?
    - oblio 7y ago
      And that behavior is rational. If I have 1 in 1 million chance of dying from a loose brick in a building falling on my head, the rational thing is to completely disregard this risk and live my life as usual, especially if I live in a city.
      - colejohnson66 7y ago
        Unless it’s planes or terrorism. Why is that?
gorgoiler 7y ago
Naive question, but with a commercial product like the i.MX8M from NXP Semiconductors, is there really not enough in it for them to develop Linux support for their product, rather than leaving it to other parties? Presumably some OS supported things like the i.MX8M’s accelerometer from the launch date, or are these chips shipped to OEMs on the basis that the low level functions work, but all OS support has to be created by someone else?
- Jonnax 7y ago
  From what I understand they would give you a bunch of binary blobs or either have a fork of the Linux kernel with a lot of patches to get the device working. So they may support a single old version because the effort of upstreaming the support would be expensive. The blog post says that the Librem paid 15 developers full time for 2 years on the project. That's a huge expense and most of all the customers of the SoC won't be demanding upstream support. Of course also what happens is that you get into a rabbit hole of patching your fork until it becomes a huge task to reintegrate.
- chme 7y ago
  I asked myself that very question often, but the reality is that only customers that take a small number of those chips (<1.000.000) care about mainline support. For the first tier customers they get a custom solution developed for them, and have access to all the specs under the NDA, but since that is the case, they cannot develop stuff for mainline and just produce blobs.
  - Brakenshire 7y ago
    The i.MX8M as I understand is a chip for car navigation/entertainment systems. I wonder whether the shift towards OTA updates will encourage manufacturers to care about mainline support. Think about all the models and versions that a car company has, they’re going to have to be maintained for a decade or more, and doing that with fractured code bases and kernel patches sounds like an immense pain.
    - 7y ago
lnsru 7y ago
This great Dev Kit design is available for everybody: https://kicad-pcb.org/made-with-kicad/librem_5_dev_kit/ https://kicad-pcb.org/made-with-kicad/librem_5_dev_kit/ Amazing piece of open source hardware. While I am not interested in cellphones, I might use for robotics project.
- m712 7y ago
  Here I must praise KiCad. It is one of the best pieces of FOSS software out there. It beats almost all other (commercial or non-commercial) software in PCB design, hands down.
  - dbcurtis 7y ago
    > It beats almost all other (commercial or non-commercial) software in PCB design, hands down. You need to get out more often. Look, I am a KiCAD supporter, too. But KiCAD is repeating the mistakes of commercial ECAD systems of the 1980’s. Am I glad it exists? Surely. But set your sights higher. KiCAD has much room for improvement.
    - skummetmaelk 7y ago
      Would you mind expanding on these mistakes?
      - atoav 7y ago
        This is entirely subjective, but I think the UI is needlessly unintuitive (but okay compared to other EDA tools), and the parts management seems not well thought out IMO. A similar feeling that e.g. LTSpice gives me: you can get into it, but parts feel arbitrary and other parts feel hacky, and ultimately you never really enjoy it. My favourite open source EDA tool that IMO does it better is horizon EDA. https://horizon-eda.readthedocs.io/en/latest/feature-overview.html https://horizon-eda.readthedocs.io/en/latest/feature-overvie... I made quite a few working PCBs with that one already. Downsides are: - the library is not that big yet (but adding parts is really easy, you can even use inheritance etc) - won’t run on any old machine because of the OpenGL-version - if you are not using windows you need to compile yourself One of the things I really like besides the UI/UX (one button hotkeys!) is the library concept called “pool”, where every part is made up of modular pieces, which makes things reusable and consistent. If you’d like to change the resistor symbol for all resistors you just have to edit in one place, if you feel like making a opamp with eight channels, just duplicate the quad one and add four more opamp units. Their concept takes a moment to sink in, but is incredible flexible and is one of these “why didn’t we do it like that from the start”-ideas.
DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
They are an SPC not aln LLC. Does anyone know what is the difference between a Washington SPCs and LLCs? Is it true that as mentioned here[0] that: > I think the story is that Washington SPCs are LLCs in pretty much every aspect besides shareholder-board disputes. and, why > have they never made a Social Purpose Report available despite the fact that they've been an SPC for two and a half years? from the bottom of the article[1]: > It is also worth keeping in mind that Purism isn't actually incorporated as a typical LLC (Limited Liability Company). They are actually incorporated as a SPC (Social Purpose Corporation) in the state of Washington. The primary difference between an LLC and an SPC in Washington is that SPCs can do things that are in the best interests of their customers rather than always doing things that are in the best interests of their shareholders. It is also important to know that in Washington this status comes with some extra regulatory requirements ... ---- if formed as an SPC, shouldn't they be transparent in how they allocate budgets to internal projects (as proof that they do what is outlined in the Social Purpose Report (SPR))? It's a shame they don't produce a SPR which could be used to verify the claims about price in this post. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21371573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21371573 [1] https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-1 https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri...
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  the failure to publish an SPR could result in law suits against purism. Fixing this wouldn't cost much and only be a net positive (for new financial backers). Failing to publish a report was probably not malicious (just laziness). Still it's negligent (IMHO). And if the rumor is true that they are having liquidity problems (as conjectured by the author of the blog post), then they do not deserve the trust given to them by their current financial backers on kickstarter or the tech community who evangelize them. We urgently need alternatives and I do want Purism to succeed.
131012 7y ago
Has anybody received them? Last time I checked, deliveries were suspiciously late.
- teddyh 7y ago
  This post from yesterday claims that they have actually started shipping them now: https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-birch-shipping-announcement/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-birch-shipping-announcement/
- DJHenk 7y ago
  There is this guy on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/e2mqgb/i_have_my_librem_5_ama/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/e2mqgb/i_have_my_li...
  - sfkdjf9j3j 7y ago
    Am I reading this correctly? This is a $700 phone that doesn't have a working camera and can't make phone calls?
    - fghtr 7y ago
      Not yet. In comparison with other phones, this one will be getting better with time, not worse.
- bo1024 7y ago
  Got mine yesterday, posted a top-level comment. It's definitely at a prototype stage, but the hardware seems awesome and high-quality, looking forward to more apps being developed!
gwd 7y ago
This is an amazing effort, but I think... > Well, here we are, we are shipping with GNOME / GTK+ ...this point is I think quite unfortunate. I tried to write a GTK+ program a few years ago and it was completely impossible. Using GNOME / GTK+ will surely limit its attractiveness of a development platform. It's too bad they couldn't have done something based on Qt instead. EDIT: Rather than downvoting, why don't you post your contrary experience with GTK+?
- mouldysammich 7y ago
  I can see why GTK would be a good choice, it has lots of bindings, and gnomes style guide is pretty well suited to enjoyable phone sized experience. My experience with GTK has been fine its been far from impossible to use - with python, rust, and C. At least on linux, but that is the context of the issue. Plasma mobile exists and apps will use QT so we can see how both turn out.
- aflag 7y ago
  I think you're being downvoted due to the broad, unsubstantiated, statement that it's impossible to write code with gtk. It's obvious that gtk is a very successful platform. If you want to make such an extraordinary claim, the burden of proof is on you. It requires more than "I tried to write an app a few years ago"
  - gwd 7y ago
    Thank you for the explanation. It's not so much that I don't understand why I'm being downvoted, or even complain about it per se; it's just that it's not terribly informative, either for me, or to anyone reading. Strictly speaking, everything I wrote was about my own personal opinions and experience. I did try writing an app; I did find trying to figure out was was going on impossible (and switching to web development much more fruitful). So it's natural for me to think that lots of people will have similar experiences, and that if they do, it will limit the growth of the platform. I knew that what I wrote might be controversial, and I'm willing to take my downvotes like a man. But I'd rather be shown other perspectives.
- curioussavage 7y ago
oefrha 7y ago
What their former CTO had to say: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-Todoric-Interview https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-T...
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  also comments when it was discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21303770 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21303770
- shaftoe 7y ago
  Great link. "Quantities matter [in China] and getting only dozen or couple of hundred orders per month doesn't really help. That said, the Librems are heavily overpriced but that is because Purism seemingly never tried to get better deal and the South San Francisco partner abused this so that is why Purism Librems are double the price they should be. I believe that if we had more realistic prices, it would be much better for Purism not only financially but also more talking about it, more of it in wild which in turn means much more orders, more happy customers etc. The innovation is not really that hard in this space because big players don't try to really innovate as they have strong positions, so it wouldn't be that hard to be good or better then most of big players even, but quantity leverage is hard to pass by."
  - cartoonworld 7y ago
    If the price were 20% less it would demand some more eyeballs. When I saw the price I assumed they were trying to position a premium product. I think this is a little bit of a mistake given that in the market of handsets, Apple owns the "premium" devices, and maybe samsung counts as #2? Nobody is crossing that Rubicon. $700 isn't really bad but I don't like the look of it. Maybe if they can make this thing for 6 or 7 years. People who are worried about this have been aware of Essential phones which aren't the same, but end users aren't shopping these Freedom characteristics. I predict another few years of nobody batting an eye to these devices. Great shame.
    - 7y ago
DCKing 7y ago
This blogpost propagates what I'd like to describe as an urban legend about baseband processors and main memory. The story originates from old times where even fancy phones allowed the baseband to write everywhere in main memory. The myth then becomes that you need the baseband physically separated from your main application processor. But the world's moved on since those reports were made. It's FUD: https://www.reddit.com/r/CopperheadOS/comments/6wtul0/on_sensationalism_about_basebands_all_future/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CopperheadOS/comments/6wtul0/on_sen...
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  the claims on this link to the CopperheadOS reddit post dismisses the importance of baseband security which is pretty insane. The baseband is permanently attached to a public network. Not having control over whether that connection actually is up is a huge security hole. The entire baseband software stack runs in supervisor mode. There are no non-executable pages, there's no stack protection. EDIT-1: Qualcomm baseband chips have location tracking baked in. Even with a clean OS and no tracking apps, the baseband does it. The tracking data is commercially available: https://web.archive.org/web/20180514003056/https://www.qualcomm.com/products/izat https://web.archive.org/web/20180514003056/https://www.qualc...
- alex_duf 7y ago
  I know very little about the topic so bearing that in mind: We're already in a world were we can't quite trust our CPUs, so why trusting baseband chips? If it does make the design more complicated, it may also reduce the potential attack surface.
  - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
    > If it does make the design more complicated, it may also reduce the potential attack surface. an increase in complexity would rule out reduction of attack surface. in fact attack surface would be guaranteed to increase
    - cyphar 7y ago
ForFreedom 7y ago
I need bitcoin to purchase the phone
- RandomBacon 7y ago
  They take Monero, so you can try https://LocalMonero.co https://LocalMonero.co or if there isn't anyone you want to buy from, you can try LocalBitcoin and then convert.
strooper 7y ago
It would all make sense to me, if they wouldn't charge $800 and $1000 for 24" and 30" monitors (with keyboard and mouse) respectively. Are they designing the monitors from ground up as well? Business around privacy is a thing going on for at least a decade. However, we often forget that our data flow is controlled, monitored, and stored by those who we try to protect our data from.
- bo1024 7y ago
  Remember these were and are offered as part of a fundraising effort to be able to develop the phones. So I think those prices are targeted at people who want to make a serious donation to the cause as well as getting the hardware.
  - olau 7y ago
    Indeed. After reading the blog entry, I feel like buying a Librem 5 even though I don't want a large phone (am on an old small dumb phone that lasts 3 weeks on a charge). We've seen so many NIH (on the software side) phones over the years, and then finally this. It bodes well for the future.
Pmop 7y ago
Well, they could say that it's expensive but at least you get to really own the phone, not the other way around. Technical wording works best with technical people.
jokoon 7y ago
How about you make a cheaper product without software bloat? I don't think a smartphone requires 3GB ram to work. Those smartphones are not high end, but they have incredible specs and yet I don't see any logic that justifies them. There should be a market for electronics that goes against planned obsolescence. Build a device that runs a good enough OS, with low specs, that doesn't require fast hardware, make it sturdy and last at least 3 years, and I would buy it. I refuse to spit more than $200 for any of those devices. People say "but I used it everyday, it is my main computer", well with all due respect you are addicted to your phone. The smartphone industry is bizarre. Of course you can accuse Apple and google ecosystems, but still.
- davidgf 7y ago
  You should check out the Pinephone then: https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  > I refuse to spit more than $200 for any of those devices. People say "but I used it everyday, it is my main computer", well with all due respect you are addicted to your phone. Well, that's an entirely arbitrary line in the sand you've drawn there. It's an entertainment platform. Am I addicted because I pay extra for a high quality TV, stereo, or gaming computer? What if it was spending extra money on a jigsaw for my woodworking hobby?
  - SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
    "Stop liking things I don't like!"
- evolve2k 7y ago
  Excuse my comment if I’m incorrect, but did you read the article? “How about you make a cheaper product without software bloat” To me this was very clearly answered with we broke new ground building the right system from the ground up and that was expensive. And we used our existing OS as the base and we’ve achieved true mobile <> PC converance. Give the article a full read and please consider editing this comment. The reason for the cost was literally what was covered in the article.
skinnyasianboi 7y ago
I love the software part in the article. Basic GTK apps just need a few changes and they start working seamless on both Desktop and smaller displays.
bo1024 7y ago
Sidenote: I got my Librem 5 in the mail yesterday! Below is a video of unboxing. https://peertube.co.uk/videos/watch/55eece8c-2d6c-4da3-8c8c-895217d66e2a https://peertube.co.uk/videos/watch/55eece8c-2d6c-4da3-8c8c-... This prototype version is definitely not ready for mass market due to (1) known overheating issue (so far I've observed it get quite warm sometimes, but not uncomfortably hot), (2) a bunch little software things to work on. But it's really exciting to be able to `ls` and `cd` and `ssh` on a phone, and know that the software updates are coming. Purism's accomplishment already is pretty incredible on both a hardware and software level. For me, well worth the price. Congrats to them even if there is a ways to go yet.
- thekyle 7y ago
  Good to see that backers are starting to receive theirs. I know there was some previous controversy over them only shipping to Purism employees.
  - enriquto 7y ago
    just to be pedantic, she didn't say she's not a purism employee
- ebg13 7y ago
  > But it's really exciting to be able to `ls` and `cd` and `ssh` on a phone Can't you do that on any other Android phone with terminal software installed?
  - traverseda 7y ago
    Barely, although termux makes it a lot more reasonable. It's more a package management issue.
    - icebraining 7y ago
      You can run a full GNU/Linux distro, and apt-get install most stuff: https://f-droid.org/packages/tech.ula/ https://f-droid.org/packages/tech.ula/
cryptozeus 7y ago
Great idea but man what a missed missed opportunity on the naming? I do not want to but a phone called librem.
cryptozeus 7y ago
Its only $699, why are they calling it expensive? I paid $1100 for unlocked iphone.
- TylerE 7y ago
  Because the specs are much lower. You can buy an Android phone with the same or better specs for $50.
riazrizvi 7y ago
Thanks for explaining all the work your team is doing to create this innovative privacy phone, truly groundbreaking, I eagerly anticipate mine arriving in March. Meanwhile Hewlett Packard, with $5bn in net income and 50k employees, is advertising their latest innovation on my YouTube feed: a physical switch connected to the camera.
95014_refugee 7y ago
"We had to design the hardware from scratch" Er, no. You bought a bunch of silicon off the shelf, and you had to integrate it. Several orders of magnitude less work. Fifteen developers, and two years? Not mentioned, but this means you didn't write the telephony stack either. iMX8M bringup, driver development, software integration. This is real work, but it's a tiny fraction of what goes into making your own phone. Hoping you sell enough of these that you manage to attract adversarial attention. Because how you deal with that will be the true test of your commitment...
- jdnenej 7y ago
  From what I heard it was far more complex than just picking some parts from a catalogue. They had to find parts that could all run on open source drivers and I think they even had to convince some vendors to open source the drivers first. It also depends on what level you call from scratch. No one designs anything from scratch with your definition. All phones use 3rd party parts.
kulahan 7y ago
I'm glad they put out this article - I've been thinking about picking one of these up, but the price surprised me. I wonder if the same reasoning holds true for their laptops? They're really nice, but the $1400 starting price is pretty steep considering the specs. Side note: this is the strangest font I've seen in a long time. Why is the lower-case "t" smaller than every other letter? It almost looks like one of those fonts designed for dyslexic readers, but with no variations in the width of the letter strokes, I don't think that's the case. Anyone know if it was just a really strange choice, or if it serves some greater purpose?
GordonS 7y ago
A bit OT, but I didn't know Librem made laptops - does anyone here have any experience with them, especially the 13" model?
- NilsIRL 7y ago
  I do not own one but from what I gather their laptops are great. I have also seen many review claiming the track pad is great and even one say it is as good as a macbook track pad. However, one problem with them is that they are not refreshed often and use older Intel ships (currently 7th gen). One of the thing I suspect prevents them from refreshing the laptops is they do not have enough resources (people) to do some while developing the librem 5.
  - jdnenej 7y ago
    They have been using an exploit that allows you to wipe out the Intel backdoor. Maybe that prevents them from updating.
- millettjon 7y ago
  I got the Librem 15" laptop about a year and a half ago. I am happy with it. I ran QubesOS for a couple of moths and NixOS since with no issues.
- oftenwrong 7y ago
  I use a librem 13v3 as my main computer. I like it because the hardware is all well-supported under linux. I run a fairly stripped-down Debian. I am no linux wizard, and I was able to make everything I needed functional. Bluetooth required a non-free firmware package. Additionally, I got to support a company working toward more-open, more-free hardware. I would love for movement in that direction to be more common, so I put my money where my mouth is. If you don't care about that, you could get a laptop of equivalent performance, or better, for less money. I don't know much about hardware performance or what the latest-and-greatest is. I don't play games or do anything that performance intensive locally. It is more than performant enough for my needs. The battery life seems good, but I've never timed it. I have an M.2 SSD in it. The trackpad and keyboard are both relatively nice. The trackpad is a clicky pad, like the one on a macbook. I have it configured to use the "clickfinger" click method of libinput and two-finger-scrolling. The keyboard is backlit and has decent travel (not nearly as good as the old thinkpad keyboards, though). There are hardware kill switches. One for wifi and bluetooth, and one for the camera and microphone. I generally just leave the camera/microphone off, and the wifi/bluetooth on. The switches protrude a bit so it is possible to accidentally move them. The screen is a matte 1920x1080 IPS panel. I hate glossy screens because I like to use my laptop outside, so this is perfect for me. It has a decent complement of ports. No ethernet port, though.
awinter-py 7y ago
I love how their values-based pitch allows them to miss operational deadlines and still maintain their user appeal When android devices have a major public video permission hole, everyone exhales and mentally checks out. When purism is late, it sucks but it's not the same Pre-sale customers are along for the ride. If the lesson for other startups is 'if you're really innovating, your users will be there when you're ready', I think that's a really good outcome.
baybal2 7y ago
You can definitely make a cookie cutter 65nm SoC under $1m. SoC has a gigantic cost advantage over discrete parts, let alone PCIE cards. The only showstopper is the 4G radio. There are no IP vendors for it at all, and that is very much a result of things antitrust regulators should've been taking care of.
shmerl 7y ago
> and that we would never make it with GNOME. Well, here we are, we are shipping with GNOME / GTK+ What's the reason not to use Plasma Mobile though? I'd prefer investment of effort into that.
- amiga-workbench 7y ago
  I cant speak for them, but Gnome is far ahead on UI polish and general tidiness. I keep checking in on Plasma Mobile every few months and how nobody has fixed the god awful interface proportions yet is beyond me. I see the same problems on desktop Plasma, wildly inconsistent padding, UI elements not lining up and bits of the interface crushed and cramped, while 100px below you have gigantic elements. If you're going to take a swing at doing a FOSS phone right, you really need to avoid the wonky programmer art or you are not going to convince the average user that its any better or more polished than previous failed attempts.
  - shmerl 7y ago
    In desktop case, Plasma is ahead of Gnome in features and functionality. Not sure what you refer to in regards to padding, but Gnome has its own UI issues like lack of server side decorations for SDL windows and such, due to Mutter being very limited. Can't say about Plasma Mobile though, but that's the point why investing effort into that would be useful. The base is more promising than Gnome one.
    - ptx 7y ago
      > Not sure what you refer to in regards to padding I can't find a good introduction on the topic at the moment, so I'll just quote Microsoft's succinct answer: "Alignment makes your UI look neat, organized, and balanced and can also be used to establish visual hierarchy and relationships." They also have a nice illustration: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/design/layout/alignment-margin-padding#alignment https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/design/layout/a... This kind of thing matters for usability. KDE has always been ahead in technical features, but GNOME has for a long time been way ahead in paying attention to basic principles of visual design.
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- seba_dos1 7y ago
  Early owners had to opt-in into getting early revisions to get them. I wouldn't be interested in an AOSP-based phone at all. I have used Openmoko Neo Freerunner in the past, I'm using Nokia N900 now and I have absolutely no intention to leave the GNU/Linux land on my phone.

311 points by fghtr 7y ago

I don’t think a $700 phone is terribly expensive. I mean, yes, it is, but as long as they stay below iPhone pricing I don’t see how anyone can complain.

lonelappde 7y ago
It's 2x the average phone price, so it's excluding the majority of the market. https://www.vox.com/2018/1/23/16923832/global-smartphone-prices-grew-faster-iphone-quarter https://www.vox.com/2018/1/23/16923832/global-smartphone-pri...
- tyingq 7y ago
  It's 2x other phones with superior specs, like a Moto G7. It's 3x other phones with similar specs.
eigenvalue 7y ago
The real cost in my view is not the price of the phone, it’s in the clunkiness. It’s really thick and looks from the outside like a device from 2005 compared to current phones from Apple and Samsung. I have a hard time believing they will sell enough of them to cover the development cost.
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
  I think if you're worried about how it looks and not how it works, then you're not in their target market ;)
  - ThatGeoGuy 7y ago
    I would argue the weight factors into this. With Pinephone around the corner, which may very well end up being able to benefit from the work in GNOME (and I do appreciate that part), it seems like Purism might be at risk of that same small, niche market picking up and going over to Pinephone because it offers a better experience _in some ways_. Of course I am supporting both of these projects because my income apparently doesn't matter to me, but I think it's still worth considering that a heavy, chunky phone may be somewhat of a detriment when their target base is already pretty small. Mostly I worry about perfect being the enemy of good, and that Purism will end up going out of business before they can make a v2 which truly surpasses expectations. The existing Librem 5 is definitely a cool step in the right direction, but living long enough to fulfill their ultimate goal (having everyone be able to run and want to use ethical, open, and free as in freedom devices) is also important.
    - marcus_holmes 7y ago
      I'm writing this on one of their laptops. Because, as you say, my income apparently doesn't matter to me and I really want them to succeed. It's actually a good laptop, though, and I love having a native Linux machine (and the styling - I'm a sucker for plain matt black stuff). It feels like early Apple over again. That dancing on the edge between business pragmatism and perfectionism. I can easily see them becoming the "new Apple" in a few years' time. I hope so.
mattkevan 7y ago
The Librem is $700 and, at launch, doesn't include basic functionality like calendars, calculators and notes. Sure I'm comparing apples to lemons here, but the first iPhone was $500, twelve years ago, and much more functional.
- rootlocus 7y ago
  You're comparing apples to gnomes.
- teddyh 7y ago
  > The Librem […] doesn't include basic functionality like calendars, calculators and notes. From what I can see, this is untrue: Calculator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esYJSNZrQWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esYJSNZrQWc Notes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34XhhVlmYTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34XhhVlmYTU and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEzRgjHaIZo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEzRgjHaIZo It would surprise me if there wasn’t a calendaring program in there, too
  - mattkevan 7y ago
    I'm getting the information directly from the Librem 5 product page[0]: "Upon initial shipment of the Librem 5 in 2019, it will offer the essentials: phone functionality, email, messaging, voice, camera, browsing. Your user experience will improve as we incrementally add commonly requested applications and features (such as calendaring, notes, calculator, PDF viewer, etc.) while keeping performance in mind." [0] https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
    - teddyh 7y ago
      I think I recognize this text from when I read it early on; I would assume that this was written before the relevant Gnome programs (Calculator, Xournal, GEdit, etc.) had been ported to run sensibly on the Librem 5. They should probably update it.
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
megous 7y ago
Unless you plan not to pay taxes on it. For me it would be $860 phone. Comparable phones, like Lenovo K9 for example, cost $125-$150 around here, taxes incl.

cjg 7y ago

Most of the things that they say have caused the high cost are sunk costs in design. Given that the design is open, it should be possible for another company, who doesn't have these sunk costs, to deliver the same phone for less. Does this mean that they have the price wrong? Can selling open designs ever recoup such design costs?

lallysingh 7y ago
Of course. This is the basic open source model, only better. You get support from the folks who made the design.
beatgammit 7y ago
I don't think they've released their full hardware schematic, right? I imagine they're waiting until they at least hit full production, and perhaps get closer to the next rev. That being said, Pine64 has been able to make a similar device for far less also using their own design, so I'm a little skeptical that hardware design was such a large part of the price. I'm guessing the bulk of it was getting the SoC up and going since Pine64 had similar products that likely make it simpler to design a phone SoC.
jdnenej 7y ago
You don't by the phone just for the actual device. You buy it mainly to support the start of actually open source phones. If you wanted a cheap phone you could just by a second hand android phone for dirt cheap

pferde 7y ago

"Trust in closed non-auditable complex computer systems is something everyone has learned the hard way we should not have. The news is full each day of zero day bugs and exploits throughout the stack–from applications to operating systems and even down to the very silicon the whole stuff runs on." If only. I suspect that only tech enthusiasts are aware of these issues. In the meantime, non-technical people only give you weird disbelieving looks when you mention this to them, and then continue ignoring it.

teddyh 7y ago
> In the meantime, non-technical people only give you weird disbelieving looks when you mention this to them, and then continue ignoring it. It’s psychological. People can’t believe things which would make it too hard for them to stay the person they currently are. It’s almost impossible for anyone to do anything but ignore and repress such information. If you ask them later about it, they probably would deny even hearing it or having the conversation, because they wouldn’t actually remember it. Ask anyone who tried to convince a sweeping societal change based on logical arguments. See what happened to Ignaz Semmelweis. You simply can’t convince people of hard things with logic.
- pas 7y ago
  They just do the naive cost-benefit analysis: everyone uses it, successful people use these things, yet no bad things happen to them, why should I really care?
  - oblio 7y ago
    And that behavior is rational. If I have 1 in 1 million chance of dying from a loose brick in a building falling on my head, the rational thing is to completely disregard this risk and live my life as usual, especially if I live in a city.
    - colejohnson66 7y ago
      Unless it’s planes or terrorism. Why is that?

gorgoiler 7y ago

Naive question, but with a commercial product like the i.MX8M from NXP Semiconductors, is there really not enough in it for them to develop Linux support for their product, rather than leaving it to other parties? Presumably some OS supported things like the i.MX8M’s accelerometer from the launch date, or are these chips shipped to OEMs on the basis that the low level functions work, but all OS support has to be created by someone else?

Jonnax 7y ago
From what I understand they would give you a bunch of binary blobs or either have a fork of the Linux kernel with a lot of patches to get the device working. So they may support a single old version because the effort of upstreaming the support would be expensive. The blog post says that the Librem paid 15 developers full time for 2 years on the project. That's a huge expense and most of all the customers of the SoC won't be demanding upstream support. Of course also what happens is that you get into a rabbit hole of patching your fork until it becomes a huge task to reintegrate.
chme 7y ago
I asked myself that very question often, but the reality is that only customers that take a small number of those chips (<1.000.000) care about mainline support. For the first tier customers they get a custom solution developed for them, and have access to all the specs under the NDA, but since that is the case, they cannot develop stuff for mainline and just produce blobs.
- Brakenshire 7y ago
  The i.MX8M as I understand is a chip for car navigation/entertainment systems. I wonder whether the shift towards OTA updates will encourage manufacturers to care about mainline support. Think about all the models and versions that a car company has, they’re going to have to be maintained for a decade or more, and doing that with fractured code bases and kernel patches sounds like an immense pain.
  - 7y ago

lnsru 7y ago

This great Dev Kit design is available for everybody: https://kicad-pcb.org/made-with-kicad/librem_5_dev_kit/ https://kicad-pcb.org/made-with-kicad/librem_5_dev_kit/ Amazing piece of open source hardware. While I am not interested in cellphones, I might use for robotics project.

m712 7y ago
Here I must praise KiCad. It is one of the best pieces of FOSS software out there. It beats almost all other (commercial or non-commercial) software in PCB design, hands down.
- dbcurtis 7y ago
  > It beats almost all other (commercial or non-commercial) software in PCB design, hands down. You need to get out more often. Look, I am a KiCAD supporter, too. But KiCAD is repeating the mistakes of commercial ECAD systems of the 1980’s. Am I glad it exists? Surely. But set your sights higher. KiCAD has much room for improvement.
  - skummetmaelk 7y ago
    Would you mind expanding on these mistakes?
    - atoav 7y ago
      This is entirely subjective, but I think the UI is needlessly unintuitive (but okay compared to other EDA tools), and the parts management seems not well thought out IMO. A similar feeling that e.g. LTSpice gives me: you can get into it, but parts feel arbitrary and other parts feel hacky, and ultimately you never really enjoy it. My favourite open source EDA tool that IMO does it better is horizon EDA. https://horizon-eda.readthedocs.io/en/latest/feature-overview.html https://horizon-eda.readthedocs.io/en/latest/feature-overvie... I made quite a few working PCBs with that one already. Downsides are: - the library is not that big yet (but adding parts is really easy, you can even use inheritance etc) - won’t run on any old machine because of the OpenGL-version - if you are not using windows you need to compile yourself One of the things I really like besides the UI/UX (one button hotkeys!) is the library concept called “pool”, where every part is made up of modular pieces, which makes things reusable and consistent. If you’d like to change the resistor symbol for all resistors you just have to edit in one place, if you feel like making a opamp with eight channels, just duplicate the quad one and add four more opamp units. Their concept takes a moment to sink in, but is incredible flexible and is one of these “why didn’t we do it like that from the start”-ideas.

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago

They are an SPC not aln LLC. Does anyone know what is the difference between a Washington SPCs and LLCs? Is it true that as mentioned here[0] that: > I think the story is that Washington SPCs are LLCs in pretty much every aspect besides shareholder-board disputes. and, why > have they never made a Social Purpose Report available despite the fact that they've been an SPC for two and a half years? from the bottom of the article[1]: > It is also worth keeping in mind that Purism isn't actually incorporated as a typical LLC (Limited Liability Company). They are actually incorporated as a SPC (Social Purpose Corporation) in the state of Washington. The primary difference between an LLC and an SPC in Washington is that SPCs can do things that are in the best interests of their customers rather than always doing things that are in the best interests of their shareholders. It is also important to know that in Washington this status comes with some extra regulatory requirements ... ---- if formed as an SPC, shouldn't they be transparent in how they allocate budgets to internal projects (as proof that they do what is outlined in the Social Purpose Report (SPR))? It's a shame they don't produce a SPR which could be used to verify the claims about price in this post. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21371573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21371573 [1] https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-1 https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri...

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
the failure to publish an SPR could result in law suits against purism. Fixing this wouldn't cost much and only be a net positive (for new financial backers). Failing to publish a report was probably not malicious (just laziness). Still it's negligent (IMHO). And if the rumor is true that they are having liquidity problems (as conjectured by the author of the blog post), then they do not deserve the trust given to them by their current financial backers on kickstarter or the tech community who evangelize them. We urgently need alternatives and I do want Purism to succeed.

131012 7y ago

Has anybody received them? Last time I checked, deliveries were suspiciously late.

teddyh 7y ago
This post from yesterday claims that they have actually started shipping them now: https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-birch-shipping-announcement/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-birch-shipping-announcement/
DJHenk 7y ago
There is this guy on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/e2mqgb/i_have_my_librem_5_ama/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/e2mqgb/i_have_my_li...
- sfkdjf9j3j 7y ago
  Am I reading this correctly? This is a $700 phone that doesn't have a working camera and can't make phone calls?
  - fghtr 7y ago
    Not yet. In comparison with other phones, this one will be getting better with time, not worse.
bo1024 7y ago
Got mine yesterday, posted a top-level comment. It's definitely at a prototype stage, but the hardware seems awesome and high-quality, looking forward to more apps being developed!

gwd 7y ago

This is an amazing effort, but I think... > Well, here we are, we are shipping with GNOME / GTK+ ...this point is I think quite unfortunate. I tried to write a GTK+ program a few years ago and it was completely impossible. Using GNOME / GTK+ will surely limit its attractiveness of a development platform. It's too bad they couldn't have done something based on Qt instead. EDIT: Rather than downvoting, why don't you post your contrary experience with GTK+?

mouldysammich 7y ago
I can see why GTK would be a good choice, it has lots of bindings, and gnomes style guide is pretty well suited to enjoyable phone sized experience. My experience with GTK has been fine its been far from impossible to use - with python, rust, and C. At least on linux, but that is the context of the issue. Plasma mobile exists and apps will use QT so we can see how both turn out.
aflag 7y ago
I think you're being downvoted due to the broad, unsubstantiated, statement that it's impossible to write code with gtk. It's obvious that gtk is a very successful platform. If you want to make such an extraordinary claim, the burden of proof is on you. It requires more than "I tried to write an app a few years ago"
- gwd 7y ago
  Thank you for the explanation. It's not so much that I don't understand why I'm being downvoted, or even complain about it per se; it's just that it's not terribly informative, either for me, or to anyone reading. Strictly speaking, everything I wrote was about my own personal opinions and experience. I did try writing an app; I did find trying to figure out was was going on impossible (and switching to web development much more fruitful). So it's natural for me to think that lots of people will have similar experiences, and that if they do, it will limit the growth of the platform. I knew that what I wrote might be controversial, and I'm willing to take my downvotes like a man. But I'd rather be shown other perspectives.
curioussavage 7y ago

oefrha 7y ago

What their former CTO had to say: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-Todoric-Interview https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-T...

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
also comments when it was discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21303770 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21303770
shaftoe 7y ago
Great link. "Quantities matter [in China] and getting only dozen or couple of hundred orders per month doesn't really help. That said, the Librems are heavily overpriced but that is because Purism seemingly never tried to get better deal and the South San Francisco partner abused this so that is why Purism Librems are double the price they should be. I believe that if we had more realistic prices, it would be much better for Purism not only financially but also more talking about it, more of it in wild which in turn means much more orders, more happy customers etc. The innovation is not really that hard in this space because big players don't try to really innovate as they have strong positions, so it wouldn't be that hard to be good or better then most of big players even, but quantity leverage is hard to pass by."
- cartoonworld 7y ago
  If the price were 20% less it would demand some more eyeballs. When I saw the price I assumed they were trying to position a premium product. I think this is a little bit of a mistake given that in the market of handsets, Apple owns the "premium" devices, and maybe samsung counts as #2? Nobody is crossing that Rubicon. $700 isn't really bad but I don't like the look of it. Maybe if they can make this thing for 6 or 7 years. People who are worried about this have been aware of Essential phones which aren't the same, but end users aren't shopping these Freedom characteristics. I predict another few years of nobody batting an eye to these devices. Great shame.
  - 7y ago

DCKing 7y ago

This blogpost propagates what I'd like to describe as an urban legend about baseband processors and main memory. The story originates from old times where even fancy phones allowed the baseband to write everywhere in main memory. The myth then becomes that you need the baseband physically separated from your main application processor. But the world's moved on since those reports were made. It's FUD: https://www.reddit.com/r/CopperheadOS/comments/6wtul0/on_sensationalism_about_basebands_all_future/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CopperheadOS/comments/6wtul0/on_sen...

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
the claims on this link to the CopperheadOS reddit post dismisses the importance of baseband security which is pretty insane. The baseband is permanently attached to a public network. Not having control over whether that connection actually is up is a huge security hole. The entire baseband software stack runs in supervisor mode. There are no non-executable pages, there's no stack protection. EDIT-1: Qualcomm baseband chips have location tracking baked in. Even with a clean OS and no tracking apps, the baseband does it. The tracking data is commercially available: https://web.archive.org/web/20180514003056/https://www.qualcomm.com/products/izat https://web.archive.org/web/20180514003056/https://www.qualc...
alex_duf 7y ago
I know very little about the topic so bearing that in mind: We're already in a world were we can't quite trust our CPUs, so why trusting baseband chips? If it does make the design more complicated, it may also reduce the potential attack surface.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  > If it does make the design more complicated, it may also reduce the potential attack surface. an increase in complexity would rule out reduction of attack surface. in fact attack surface would be guaranteed to increase
  - cyphar 7y ago

ForFreedom 7y ago

I need bitcoin to purchase the phone

RandomBacon 7y ago
They take Monero, so you can try https://LocalMonero.co https://LocalMonero.co or if there isn't anyone you want to buy from, you can try LocalBitcoin and then convert.

strooper 7y ago

It would all make sense to me, if they wouldn't charge $800 and $1000 for 24" and 30" monitors (with keyboard and mouse) respectively. Are they designing the monitors from ground up as well? Business around privacy is a thing going on for at least a decade. However, we often forget that our data flow is controlled, monitored, and stored by those who we try to protect our data from.

bo1024 7y ago
Remember these were and are offered as part of a fundraising effort to be able to develop the phones. So I think those prices are targeted at people who want to make a serious donation to the cause as well as getting the hardware.
- olau 7y ago
  Indeed. After reading the blog entry, I feel like buying a Librem 5 even though I don't want a large phone (am on an old small dumb phone that lasts 3 weeks on a charge). We've seen so many NIH (on the software side) phones over the years, and then finally this. It bodes well for the future.

Pmop 7y ago

Well, they could say that it's expensive but at least you get to really own the phone, not the other way around. Technical wording works best with technical people.

jokoon 7y ago

How about you make a cheaper product without software bloat? I don't think a smartphone requires 3GB ram to work. Those smartphones are not high end, but they have incredible specs and yet I don't see any logic that justifies them. There should be a market for electronics that goes against planned obsolescence. Build a device that runs a good enough OS, with low specs, that doesn't require fast hardware, make it sturdy and last at least 3 years, and I would buy it. I refuse to spit more than $200 for any of those devices. People say "but I used it everyday, it is my main computer", well with all due respect you are addicted to your phone. The smartphone industry is bizarre. Of course you can accuse Apple and google ecosystems, but still.

davidgf 7y ago
You should check out the Pinephone then: https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/
SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
> I refuse to spit more than $200 for any of those devices. People say "but I used it everyday, it is my main computer", well with all due respect you are addicted to your phone. Well, that's an entirely arbitrary line in the sand you've drawn there. It's an entertainment platform. Am I addicted because I pay extra for a high quality TV, stereo, or gaming computer? What if it was spending extra money on a jigsaw for my woodworking hobby?
- SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
  "Stop liking things I don't like!"
evolve2k 7y ago
Excuse my comment if I’m incorrect, but did you read the article? “How about you make a cheaper product without software bloat” To me this was very clearly answered with we broke new ground building the right system from the ground up and that was expensive. And we used our existing OS as the base and we’ve achieved true mobile <> PC converance. Give the article a full read and please consider editing this comment. The reason for the cost was literally what was covered in the article.

skinnyasianboi 7y ago

I love the software part in the article. Basic GTK apps just need a few changes and they start working seamless on both Desktop and smaller displays.

bo1024 7y ago

Sidenote: I got my Librem 5 in the mail yesterday! Below is a video of unboxing. https://peertube.co.uk/videos/watch/55eece8c-2d6c-4da3-8c8c-895217d66e2a https://peertube.co.uk/videos/watch/55eece8c-2d6c-4da3-8c8c-... This prototype version is definitely not ready for mass market due to (1) known overheating issue (so far I've observed it get quite warm sometimes, but not uncomfortably hot), (2) a bunch little software things to work on. But it's really exciting to be able to `ls` and `cd` and `ssh` on a phone, and know that the software updates are coming. Purism's accomplishment already is pretty incredible on both a hardware and software level. For me, well worth the price. Congrats to them even if there is a ways to go yet.

thekyle 7y ago
Good to see that backers are starting to receive theirs. I know there was some previous controversy over them only shipping to Purism employees.
- enriquto 7y ago
  just to be pedantic, she didn't say she's not a purism employee
ebg13 7y ago
> But it's really exciting to be able to `ls` and `cd` and `ssh` on a phone Can't you do that on any other Android phone with terminal software installed?
- traverseda 7y ago
  Barely, although termux makes it a lot more reasonable. It's more a package management issue.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    You can run a full GNU/Linux distro, and apt-get install most stuff: https://f-droid.org/packages/tech.ula/ https://f-droid.org/packages/tech.ula/

cryptozeus 7y ago

Great idea but man what a missed missed opportunity on the naming? I do not want to but a phone called librem.

cryptozeus 7y ago

Its only $699, why are they calling it expensive? I paid $1100 for unlocked iphone.

TylerE 7y ago
Because the specs are much lower. You can buy an Android phone with the same or better specs for $50.

riazrizvi 7y ago

Thanks for explaining all the work your team is doing to create this innovative privacy phone, truly groundbreaking, I eagerly anticipate mine arriving in March. Meanwhile Hewlett Packard, with $5bn in net income and 50k employees, is advertising their latest innovation on my YouTube feed: a physical switch connected to the camera.

95014_refugee 7y ago

"We had to design the hardware from scratch" Er, no. You bought a bunch of silicon off the shelf, and you had to integrate it. Several orders of magnitude less work. Fifteen developers, and two years? Not mentioned, but this means you didn't write the telephony stack either. iMX8M bringup, driver development, software integration. This is real work, but it's a tiny fraction of what goes into making your own phone. Hoping you sell enough of these that you manage to attract adversarial attention. Because how you deal with that will be the true test of your commitment...

jdnenej 7y ago
From what I heard it was far more complex than just picking some parts from a catalogue. They had to find parts that could all run on open source drivers and I think they even had to convince some vendors to open source the drivers first. It also depends on what level you call from scratch. No one designs anything from scratch with your definition. All phones use 3rd party parts.

kulahan 7y ago

I'm glad they put out this article - I've been thinking about picking one of these up, but the price surprised me. I wonder if the same reasoning holds true for their laptops? They're really nice, but the $1400 starting price is pretty steep considering the specs. Side note: this is the strangest font I've seen in a long time. Why is the lower-case "t" smaller than every other letter? It almost looks like one of those fonts designed for dyslexic readers, but with no variations in the width of the letter strokes, I don't think that's the case. Anyone know if it was just a really strange choice, or if it serves some greater purpose?

GordonS 7y ago

A bit OT, but I didn't know Librem made laptops - does anyone here have any experience with them, especially the 13" model?

NilsIRL 7y ago
I do not own one but from what I gather their laptops are great. I have also seen many review claiming the track pad is great and even one say it is as good as a macbook track pad. However, one problem with them is that they are not refreshed often and use older Intel ships (currently 7th gen). One of the thing I suspect prevents them from refreshing the laptops is they do not have enough resources (people) to do some while developing the librem 5.
- jdnenej 7y ago
  They have been using an exploit that allows you to wipe out the Intel backdoor. Maybe that prevents them from updating.
millettjon 7y ago
I got the Librem 15" laptop about a year and a half ago. I am happy with it. I ran QubesOS for a couple of moths and NixOS since with no issues.
oftenwrong 7y ago
I use a librem 13v3 as my main computer. I like it because the hardware is all well-supported under linux. I run a fairly stripped-down Debian. I am no linux wizard, and I was able to make everything I needed functional. Bluetooth required a non-free firmware package. Additionally, I got to support a company working toward more-open, more-free hardware. I would love for movement in that direction to be more common, so I put my money where my mouth is. If you don't care about that, you could get a laptop of equivalent performance, or better, for less money. I don't know much about hardware performance or what the latest-and-greatest is. I don't play games or do anything that performance intensive locally. It is more than performant enough for my needs. The battery life seems good, but I've never timed it. I have an M.2 SSD in it. The trackpad and keyboard are both relatively nice. The trackpad is a clicky pad, like the one on a macbook. I have it configured to use the "clickfinger" click method of libinput and two-finger-scrolling. The keyboard is backlit and has decent travel (not nearly as good as the old thinkpad keyboards, though). There are hardware kill switches. One for wifi and bluetooth, and one for the camera and microphone. I generally just leave the camera/microphone off, and the wifi/bluetooth on. The switches protrude a bit so it is possible to accidentally move them. The screen is a matte 1920x1080 IPS panel. I hate glossy screens because I like to use my laptop outside, so this is perfect for me. It has a decent complement of ports. No ethernet port, though.

awinter-py 7y ago

I love how their values-based pitch allows them to miss operational deadlines and still maintain their user appeal When android devices have a major public video permission hole, everyone exhales and mentally checks out. When purism is late, it sucks but it's not the same Pre-sale customers are along for the ride. If the lesson for other startups is 'if you're really innovating, your users will be there when you're ready', I think that's a really good outcome.

baybal2 7y ago

You can definitely make a cookie cutter 65nm SoC under $1m. SoC has a gigantic cost advantage over discrete parts, let alone PCIE cards. The only showstopper is the 4G radio. There are no IP vendors for it at all, and that is very much a result of things antitrust regulators should've been taking care of.

shmerl 7y ago

> and that we would never make it with GNOME. Well, here we are, we are shipping with GNOME / GTK+ What's the reason not to use Plasma Mobile though? I'd prefer investment of effort into that.

amiga-workbench 7y ago
I cant speak for them, but Gnome is far ahead on UI polish and general tidiness. I keep checking in on Plasma Mobile every few months and how nobody has fixed the god awful interface proportions yet is beyond me. I see the same problems on desktop Plasma, wildly inconsistent padding, UI elements not lining up and bits of the interface crushed and cramped, while 100px below you have gigantic elements. If you're going to take a swing at doing a FOSS phone right, you really need to avoid the wonky programmer art or you are not going to convince the average user that its any better or more polished than previous failed attempts.
- shmerl 7y ago
  In desktop case, Plasma is ahead of Gnome in features and functionality. Not sure what you refer to in regards to padding, but Gnome has its own UI issues like lack of server side decorations for SDL windows and such, due to Mutter being very limited. Can't say about Plasma Mobile though, but that's the point why investing effort into that would be useful. The base is more promising than Gnome one.
  - ptx 7y ago
    > Not sure what you refer to in regards to padding I can't find a good introduction on the topic at the moment, so I'll just quote Microsoft's succinct answer: "Alignment makes your UI look neat, organized, and balanced and can also be used to establish visual hierarchy and relationships." They also have a nice illustration: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/design/layout/alignment-margin-padding#alignment https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/design/layout/a... This kind of thing matters for usability. KDE has always been ahead in technical features, but GNOME has for a long time been way ahead in paying attention to basic principles of visual design.

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seba_dos1 7y ago
Early owners had to opt-in into getting early revisions to get them. I wouldn't be interested in an AOSP-based phone at all. I have used Openmoko Neo Freerunner in the past, I'm using Nokia N900 now and I have absolutely no intention to leave the GNU/Linux land on my phone.