21 ms·

MacBook Pro 16" 2019 Teardown

413 points by robin_reala 7y ago

JohnTHaller 7y ago
Most important point: Apple fixed the keyboard by ditching the flawed keyboard used for the past 3 years and returning to the Magic Keyboard scissor switch design. Comparing the 'new' keyboard to the Magic Keyboard: "side by side, we're hard pressed to spot any differences. Scissor switches, keycaps... There's slightly less space surrounding these new keys, and pundits will celebrate those reconfigured arrow keys—but everything else looks nigh identical."
- webwielder2 7y ago
  The Magic Keyboard design is not the 2012-2015 MBP keyboard design, it's the design from their line of external keyboards. iFixit's jokey intro is misleading in this regard.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - pwthornton 7y ago
    This is correct. The Magic keyboard has been beloved for several years, and it is not a keyboard that has ever been in a laptop before.
    - inferiorhuman 7y ago
      Ugh. I despise the "magic" keyboard as there's way too little travel. I always found the whole thing a bit physically painful. It's never going to happen but I'd love to see a return of the Aluminum / Titanium PowerBook keyboard.
      - jacobolus 7y ago
        Those were great, but having slightly sculpted keytops and longer travel takes an extra 2–3 millimeters of vertical space, which isn’t going to cut it if the #1 goal is for the folded up machine to be as thin as possible. Personally I wish sommeone went back to the keyboards used on IBM 5140 or IBM P70. Probably not too likely though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Convertible https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Convertible https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_P70/P75_keyboard https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_P70/P75_keyboard
        torgian 7y ago
        Meh. Give me a fully mechanical keyboard in a somewhat portable body. Like those old Apple IIe boxes. This is a joke btw.
        jacobolus 7y ago
        The two I linked to were “fully mechanical keyboards in a somewhat portable body” (for very modest definitions of “somewhat portable” – they were 13 and 20 pounds, respectively). Not really “laptops”, but two fantastic keyboards.
        torgian 7y ago
        TBH I was trying for a joke, but it came out pretty flat ._.
        DennisP 7y ago
        It's a joke for you but a laptop with a good mech keyboard is exactly what I want. I plug a mechanical keyboard into my laptop all the time, because it's easier on my fingers. A thicker laptop that I can type on is better for me than carrying around a separate mech and putting the laptop on a nearby flat surface instead of my lap.
        gambiting 7y ago
        Those do exist - MSI and Asus made a few recently I'm sure. For example: https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/msi-gt75vr-titan-pro https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/msi-gt75vr-titan-p... I mean, at 4.5kg it's extremely heavy for a laptop, but it does have a mechanical keyboard and very beefy spec.
      - C1sc0cat 7y ago
        And I found that the ones that came with a previous employers mac minis tended to fail quite quickly I had 2 or 3 in my parts cupboard with all the other broken and old equipment. And I also did not like the feel Put it this way I brought in an old Zenith keyboard from a p90 system from the mid 90's to use instead.
    - cassianoleal 7y ago
      Personally, I prefer the MBP2015 keyboard to the Magic Keyboard. I have been to an Apple Store recently to try out the MBP16's keyboard and it's good - but not as good as the one I'm typing this on. I also don't understand the obsession with key stability on the corners. I like the instability. I use it when I'm touch typing - it gives my fingers a lot more tactile feedback.
      - torgian 7y ago
        That probably means the keyboard isn’t that good ;) Sloppiness shouldn’t make it feel better.
        dannyw 7y ago
        Instability allows you to know exactly where your fingertip is positioned once you know it.
        visarga 7y ago
        Having the keycaps slightly curved inside allows for better finger positioning.
        ahartmetz 7y ago
        Yes! Fujitsu desktop keyboards have rather pronounced concave keys - not fashionable but very nice to type on. (They have also figured out tactile response with rubber domes.)
        lostgame 7y ago
        I miss the 2004-2007 PowerBook / OG MacBook Pro keyboard. Curved keys, great feeling on depression, this was paradise for me.
        cassianoleal 7y ago
        Exactly this. Also, the instability means the keyboard is more forgiving of small aim mistakes. If my finger presses 10% of the wrong key and 90% of the right one, key stability on the corners will mean the keyboard registers both. On the 2015 keyboard it only registers the one I meant. The fact that it wobbles also gives my fingers an extra milisecond to adjust position if it feels it's wrong. It's also more obvious when I did hit the wrong place and I can automatically reach for the backspace/delete key without even thinking or noticing the wrong key visually on screen. It's overall a more fluid typing experience. This is especially useful when I'm typing at night or if my fingers are not moving optimally - like when they're cold or otherwise tight or tired.
    - eugeniub 7y ago
      To me it actually seems that the 16" keyboard is a brand new keyboard, that has never been in any laptop or external keyboard. But it's derived from the external Magic Keyboard and shares the marketing name. It has 1mmb of key travel, which is less than the 1.25mm of the external Magic Keyboard. It's also less than the 1.35mm of the 2015 MBP. But it's much more than the 0.5mm travel of the Butterfly keyboard. This is all to say that although the 16" MBP has a new scissor-based keyboard, it's not quite fair to say it's the same as the Magic Keyboard. And although it probably fixes all of the keyboard woes of the past couple years, I would still wait a few months and see.
    - gnicholas 7y ago
      I love (and am typing this on) a bluetooth keyboard that came with my 2008 iMac. Is the "magic keyboard" (which apparently came out in 2015 and is lower-profile than its predecessors) sufficiently better to warrant the moniker "magic"?
      - agloeregrets 7y ago
        They branded it as such to match the Magic Mouse and Magic Trackpad (the only product to earn the name) It is a rechargeable Bluetooth keyboard, no real magic, little innovation. It is a very nice Bluetooth keyboard though, reliable, easy to clean, feels higher quality
    - nbevans 7y ago
      I have a full size Magic keyboard (because my MBP 2018 keys started dying and they couldn't guarantee same-day repair) and it really isn't all that. Sometimes I get a similar feeling as the MBP keyboard in that it seems to "miss" keystrokes, or get them in the wrong order. Though admittedly the worse MBP characteristic of doubling or tripling up a single keystroke is not there.
  - Twirrim 7y ago
    I rarely complain about that kind of stuff, but the sheer number of jokes in that article had it reaching the "trying too hard to be funny" stage in near record time.
    - larusso 7y ago
      I felt the same way. And I consider myself a very funny person. Like it’s written by Deadpool.
  - skocznymroczny 7y ago
    I wish Apple released a butterfly switch external keyboard. I know I am in a minority here but I really loved these new flat keyboards on Macbooks and I'd love to have a keyboard like that for my Windows PC.
    - nautical 7y ago
      How long you have been using the keyboard ? Mine got screwed after couple of months of usage (I took really good care of it as I had read about the initial backlash)
      - Ralfp 7y ago
        I've got my MBP in November 2016, as soon as it became available in my country. I was using it at home and office, carrying between both of those locations using sleeve, taking extra care to don't mess my precious new laptop up. Its keyboard worked perfectly all this time. Reading about all the keyboard woes others had, I've been wondering if I am just lucky. In November 2018 I've traveled to another town with my laptop (in the sleeve, as usual). This was single day travel and it turned out that I've didn't even have to pull it from the bag a single time. After coming home 10 hours later I've pulled my laptop from the sleeve and pressed "R" key. It didn't "click". I've pressed it again. It didn't click either, but it sticked to the tip of my finger and popped out of its slot. I was now part of the people blessed with keyboard fault.
- bpye 7y ago
  But it's riveted to the chassis - you cannot replace the keyboard still.
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    Apple will never give you a modular, easy to repair system. It just isn't going to happen, time to move on.
    - ergothus 7y ago
      While you make a solid point about likely behavior, I'm sure there are those that said Microsoft will never cooperate with Linux. "Never" is a bold word, and it's worth highlighting things like a hard-to-replace/repair keyboard to keep on that tiny bit of pressure to change (how often have you been in a meeting where "customers aren't asking for this" came up as a justification to not make a change?). Also, just to let people KNOW - when buying a laptop you may not be considering if the keyboard is easy to service. Plenty of developers on any given day are making their first foray into these sorts of decisions, and there's nothing wrong with pointing out that which is obvious if you've been following for a decade but not if you're new to it.
      - braythwayt 7y ago
        Perhaps another way to put it is, "This iteration of Apple will never..." Which carries with it a significant piece of information: Someone saying this is claiming that there is some structural or cultural obstacle, and that the company would have to change its nature in order to effect the requried change. That was the case with Microsoft and Linux as well.
      - EpicEng 7y ago
        That's fair, but it would take a massive change in both consumer behavior and Apple's target audience to make something like this come about. But hey, ya never know.
        7y ago
- wetpaws 7y ago
  The easiest way to improve a good laptop is to make a bad update and then revert it.
  - stcredzero 7y ago
    It's the "New Coke" maneuver.
    - rzzzt 7y ago
      The Sonic movie's main character redesign is also a good example.
- machello13 7y ago
  This is exactly what Apple said they did.
- Razengan 7y ago
  I personally dislike the shortened left and right arrow keys. Where can I raise a mob to clamor about it so I can have the full-sized keys back in 3 years?
- choppaface 7y ago
  Key travel for the 2016 is 1mm. The "bad" keyboards had 0.5-0.7mm travel. 2015 and earlier had 1.2-1.5mm travel. Not sure about the reliability of the new mechanism, but the 2016 keyboard does feel much more like the old 2015 one. https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/11/15/heres-what-the-16-inch-macbook-pro-keyboard-sounds-like https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/11/15/heres-what-the-16...
  - ksec 7y ago
    >Key travel for the 2016 is 1mm Well even your article say the 2016 keyboard are the same to 2017 and 2018 which is 0.6-0.7mm. Although the general accepted Key Travel for 2016 - 2019 15"MBP are 0.5mm.
    - oe 7y ago
      Maybe they meant the 16" laptop which has 1mm of travel.
- VvR-Ox 7y ago
  This is one of the reasons I didn't buy any new MBP after 2016 anymore. I was so unsatisfied with many changes ranging from the keyboard disaster to the loss of ports that are still industry standard and used every day for some years to come. Probably this is the start for Apple to find back to some quality and say goodbye to strange experiments. Users should feel good using a device and not pay a lot of $$$ to become Beta-Test Lab Rats.
  - gbersac 7y ago
    I personnaly support their "all usb C" politics. A world where every device will share the same cable will be better.
    - allendoerfer 7y ago
      All phones do. Except that one from Apple.
    - VvR-Ox 7y ago
      I basically concur but not all of us can just "flick a switch" here. The most of my customers still need a lot of "obsolete" connectors as well as my devices which I won't replace just because they have no USB-C yet. In 5-10 years maybe but they will come up with other standards until then and the race will go on. I think it is a matter of your domain(s) how cutting-edge your choices can be.
  - w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago
    These were no experiment. These changes were only a matter of cutting cost. The new butterfly system was cheaper to produce than the old one. Old keyboard design were more complicated. And the keys made from a more sturdy plastic. I have removed and replaced several keys on both kind keyboard and I broke partially 2 key from the new keyboard, using a more fragile plastic but none of the old version, this taking account to the fact that the new key were more easy to remove. The USB-C choice was also about reducing cost. Integrate 2 USB-C is less expensive than integrate 1 power input, 2 thunderbolts, 2 USB 3, 1 card reader, and 1 hdmi output. Removing the MacSafe for the cheap defective usb-c power plug (after 1 year, the cable don't stay stuck anymore in the USB-C, causing the macbook battery to discharge without useur knowledge, and forcing him to push back the cable a least 10 time as day because of the low quality of the component, no matter the cable you used to plug your macbook) was also about cutting cost. On the pretense to changing design and and adopting new trends, the have cut cost by reducing the quality and the number of feature of their computer. That's how they became the richest company in the world.
Basketb926 7y ago
Repairability 1/10
- rahuldottech 7y ago
  Unsure why this is getting downvotes. This is literally the conclusion of the article/video.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- sigzero 7y ago
  Yeah, not surprising. That isn't Apple's focus on their product lines at all.
- mikepurvis 7y ago
  Also known as "better include the three years of Apple Care coverage in the cost of the computer."
  - dijit 7y ago
    Three? Isn't it 2? (which overlaps with the mandatory 1yr warranty period)
    - kgermino 7y ago
      I think it varies by country. In the US it’s 2 years on top of the 1 year included warranty, so 3 total. You mention a mandatory 1 year so I assume you’re non-US and I don’t know what it would be for you.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - ihuman 7y ago
      It's 3 years for me (US), but it might be worded differently if you get a mandatory 1 year. https://www.apple.com/support/products/mac/ https://www.apple.com/support/products/mac/
Mobius01 7y ago
I just replaced the keyboard on a ThinkPad T440p, and it didn’t seem to add a significant bulk to the machine’s profile. It took me 2 minutes flat.
- smilekzs 7y ago
  +1. The serviceability of ThinkPads had always been a great (if not hidden) feature, almost allowing Ship-of-Theseus-ish rolling upgrades like a desktop. Even though the build quality has generally declined since the T410 era, this at least has been preserved (I have a company-issued P50 and it's still a few screws away from changing RAM and SSD).
  - berbec 7y ago
    I replaced the trackpad on an x240 and it took me 2 hours and a few broken spudgers. I would have been able to swap everything else out first, as the touchpad was buried under motherboard, keyboard, hard drives etc.
    - dfox 7y ago
      That is essentially the feature of the “good” thinkpads. You can replace almost anything, but the whole thing is built in this weird upside-down way and replacing anything that you really want to replace means that you have to take the whole thing almost completely apart. On the other hand if you read the official procedure for that and take inspiration from that, the only tool you really need to take it completely apart and assemble back is literally an cheapest swiss army knife which includes philips screwdriver.
    - philsnow 7y ago
      I replaced the AC barrel connector on an x220, which required removing every single part from the chassis. It took me probably four hours all told, and a few gray hairs (it was my wife's laptop, and yes I had a backup of everything on it, but didn't want to need to replace it). An Apple laptop would have been shipped off who knows where for three weeks, if fixing that part were even possible.
rahuldottech 7y ago
So no upgradable RAM, no upgradable storage. If either stops functioning, you have to change the entire logic board (including the CPU and GPU? I'm not sure). Wow this is a crappy design. But expected, since this is Apple that we're talking about.
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  What's interesting about this perception is that PC vendors who do the same things don't catch flak. Presumably because there are still options for PC that are at least theoretically repairable and built to last. I wonder what would happen in a hypothetical world where there were pro and non-Pro Apple laptops, but the only real difference between them were that the Pro laptops had replaceable parts, and were however much larger/heavier/pricier they need to be to make that happen, while the non-Pro ones are all soldered and riveted together. My guess is that the ones that are soldered together vastly outsell the pro line because that's what most Apple consumers want. And then economies of scale kick in until everyone's just mad that Apple is charging $500 "tax" just to be able to replace the hard drive and upgrade the RAM.
  - jotm 7y ago
    That's because Apple is the only hardware provider for Mac OS X. If you just want Windows or Linux, you have a lot of choices. If you want OS X, there's no choice but to put up with whatever hardware Apple gives you.
    - dkonofalski 7y ago
      That's not entirely true with Hackintoshes being a thing now.
      - jotm 7y ago
        That's only for exalted characters with nice hats and beards. If you want to run MacOSX legally without risking a lawsuit from Apple (they even went after a repair shop, FFS), you must use their hardware, as per the license agreement.
Tepix 7y ago
It‘s not a very professional device if you can‘t upgrade the storage and the memory. The Mac Pro will feature modular SSDs (and they aren‘t even super fast). I wonder if Apple will use something proprietary or standard M.2 NVMe modules. They probably can‘t offer PCIe 4.0 slots since they‘re using Intel which is trailing behind.
- pwthornton 7y ago
  This is an odd definition of professional. To me, what you can do with it and the kinds of jobs it enables is what makes a computer pro or not.
  - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
    I think the distinction being made is that something for casual use (like a Chromebook, or an iPad) doesn't really carry with it the expectation that you will be repairing or upgrading components - if something fails, you replace the whole (relatively cheap) device. For a machine that has a pricetag in the thousands, not hundreds, of dollars/euro, that isn't a very appealing approach...
    - outworlder 7y ago
      Hopefully you'll have Apple care, which will allow you to replace the whole machine without paying for an entirely new one. If you need it for a living, it's a no brainer. Is it malfunctioning? Take it to an Apple store, grab a brand new device, restore it from Time Machine and resume where you left off. You could be back up and running in a couple of hours as if nothing had happened. You could potentially waste a lot more than that trying to troubleshoot and then ordering new parts. That only works if you have good Apple Store coverage though. Otherwise, the table flips.
      - InitialLastName 7y ago
        That's also a reason to make it less repairable. If you can replace parts with aftermarket parts, the gray area of applecare support is much bigger. People who are using these computers "professionally" mostly don't want to fiddle with modifying them. They want a computer that will be reliable, and whose failure will cost them the smallest work interruption.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
Apple rolling back the keyboard design and lack of Escape key reminds me of the satirical "Upgrade to Windows 7 (from Windows 8)" article from six or seven years ago, joyfully describing how Windows was back on track after 7 fixed most of 8's problems.
dijit 7y ago
I can't find any information on the SSD flash chips; does anyone have any info on if they're MLC or 3D Nand? That would impact the wear of the drives considerably.
- asciident 7y ago
  Which ones last longer?
  - dijit 7y ago
    MLC would last longer than 3D NAND, SLC would last significantly longer than both; but nobody is shipping SLC for at least 5 years now it seems :(
    - wtallis 7y ago
      Nobody is manufacturing planar NAND flash memory in high volume or in die sizes large enough to fit multiple TBs of flash into a notebook. The only viable options currently being manufactured are all 3D NAND. The vast majority of this (and what is used by almost all SSDs across all market segments) is 3D TLC NAND flash memory—TLC meaning it stores 3 bits per physical memory cell. MLC would typically refer to storing two bits per cell, SLC means one bit per cell, and QLC means four bits per cell. There is no reason to prefer MLC these days. TLC has plenty of write endurance for client/consumer usage. MLC offers theoretical advantages in performance and endurance, but these are absolutely not worth the higher cost that comes from lower density. (And that's comparing 3D MLC against 3D TLC; high-density planar MLC loses against 3D TLC on all counts.) There is a niche market for SLC NAND in high-performance server applications that need the lowest possible latency from their SSDs, and Samsung and Toshiba are currently manufacturing memory to suit this use case. But it again has density too low for multi-TB SSDs to fit into a laptop.
  - skavi 7y ago
    They were likely actually referring to MLC vs TLC vs QLC. All three types can be manufactured in the stacked "3D" form. MLC stores 2 bits per cell, TLC store 3, and QLC stores 4. MLC is the fastest and most reliable form, while QLC is the cheapest. The MacBook Pro likely uses TLC like the vast majority of current consumer machines. Apple's SSDs are typically among the fastest available, but I haven't been able to find anything about reliability.
dzhiurgis 7y ago
>The X-rays make it even angrier! Run away! Luckily our friends at Creative Electron are taking all the risk here—we'll resume disassembly after things calm down. Not sure what is the allusion to here, but anyone else noticed static discharge you get after airport xray scans your macbook?
- arthurcolle 7y ago
  Just noticed this on my last trip. Those poor bits never knew what hit 'em.
- pvg 7y ago
  That might have more to do with you, in your socks, walking on plastic while your metal-encased laptop goes through something that could be used as a part of a Van de Graaff generator.
- Someone1234 7y ago
  I believe that is caused by the rubber conveyor belt carrying the laptop through in a nylon bag rather than the x-ray itself. You can get the same effect from other non-x-ray conveyor belts at the airport.
- tedunangst 7y ago
  I believe they're just saying that the angry owl face is more prominent in the X-ray image. The eyebrows are more pronounced.
oceliker 7y ago
> A beloved old feature returns to the MacBook Pro, and it starts with M-a-g. Way to play with my heart, iFixit.
- Rapzid 7y ago
  Soo, I take it magsafe is not back?
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Nope, still USB-C :(
    - lispm 7y ago
      I bought a Magsafe-like USB-C cable...
      - cerberusss 7y ago
        That's quite interesting, which one did you get? What are your impressions so far? And can it be used for data?
        djaychela 7y ago
        I bought an add-on USB-C 'magsafe' adapter when I bought my 2017 MBP 13" [1]. I had planned to leave the one bit in the laptop, and use it like a magsafe, but it didn't work out well - it wasn't as magnetic or as positive in location as a real magsafe (it tended to fold 'sideways' too easily), and in the end I just stopped using it because it became more of a pain than the real risk of it getting dragged off a table (the only location I used to use it was at my girlfriend's house in the kitchen and I took to just taking the cable out when I walked away to save the kids having a nightmare). [1] - https://snapnator.com/ https://snapnator.com/
        cerberusss 7y ago
alberth 7y ago
Call me crazy but I must be the only person who enjoys typing on the old butterfly keyboard. Yes I was one of those people who originally thought the travel was too small but after using it for a couple hours I found the low travel was a huge relief to Carpal Tunnel and I also typed much faster. Maybe I have the only keyboard that “works” but I love me some butterfly keyboards.
- daftdoki 7y ago
  You're crazy. Hey, you asked.
- karmelapple 7y ago
  I enjoy the butterfly keyboard, but once the keys started putting two spaces in when I said one, or putting two of other letters, or none of yet other letters, it got old really fast. Still like my keyboard, and would be happy to have it back if Apple fixed the reliability issues. FWIW, I like the iPad keyboard feel, too.
  - alberth 7y ago
    FYI - as a hack ... you can turn off double spaces in the macOS. https://howchoo.com/g/njiwm2flndj/disable-double-space-bar-period-dot-macos https://howchoo.com/g/njiwm2flndj/disable-double-space-bar-p...
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      That's a software feature. In this case I believe they're talking about the keyboard itself double-typing.
    - bluedino 7y ago
      This does nothing for the keypresses that don't register at all
  - udfalkso 7y ago
    Try Unshaky. Helped me with multiple double key press issues
pcr910303 7y ago
As I have already said in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21524049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21524049: > I hate the wobbly feeling that the scissor mechanism produces. Apple didn't need to return to the scissor mechanism, it should have reiterated the design. I'm very disappointed that Apple just gave up & used the safe way of regressing back. > It feels like Apple is losing the spirit of doing things itself, whether other people dislikes it. Apple is more and more becoming a usual company that just does what consumers demands. And I'm sad with that.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  In this case, consumers were demanding a keyboard that... ya know, works for more than six months. Maybe they did try to iterate, but the fundamental design was just flawed. Who knows? Maybe they'll change it again down the road, but you only have so long between revs, and they had a design which works in their back pocket.
- randyrand 7y ago
  Having 3 repair programs is not a sign of just doing things “different”.
rconti 7y ago
I don't get their dust-proofing membrane comment: > News flash: there's not even a dust-proofing membrane on these new switches. We're inclined to take this as a very good sign. (It means we can finally eat Doritos during teardowns again.) That sounds counter-intuitive. Can someone explain?
- zabuni 7y ago
  They don't have the membrane because they don't need it. With the old keyboards, any spec of dust would cause them to stick. That means these are back to the original, non-fragile keyboards with good travel.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Lammy 7y ago
  The first butterfly keyboard design had problems with dust intruding and breaking the delicate switches. The second butterfly keyboard design was claimed "fixed" by adding the dust-proofing membrane.
- jayd16 7y ago
  Without the membrane you can pop off keys and clean as needed. The membrane would tear if you try to pull off keys.
dfabulich 7y ago
Wait, so are individual keys repairable, or not? This ifixit article says, "Once again, the keyboard assembly is riveted down. Though the switches are likely less vulnerable to crumbly assailants, the keyboard itself isn't any more repairable than the Butterfly boards." That directly contradicts statements from Apple to The Verge. https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/13/20962380/apples-16-inch-macbook-pro-keyboard-screen-speakers-processor https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/13/20962380/apples-16-inch-... "Apple says that it has done extra work to stabilize the keycaps, made them slightly smaller so there’s more space between the keys, and that if a key breaks you can just replace that one key without taking apart the whole laptop." This seems like a strange thing for Apple to lie about. What's the real truth here, I wonder? EDIT: It seems that ifixit is just wrong about this, and the keyboard is at least somewhat more repairable than the butterfly model. The keycaps are replaceable (allowing you to spray compressed air directly onto debris) and the white part of the switch is replaceable.
- LeoPanthera 7y ago
  The keycaps are replacable but the keyswitches are not. I don't know of any Apple laptop that ever had replacable keyswitches.
  - jmull 7y ago
    It looks like the white piece beneath the keycap (I guess that's the "scissor mechanism") is replaceable too.
    - ralfd 7y ago
      Apple statement wouldn't make sense otherwise. The point of failure is the scissor mechanism and I never heard of a key cap breaking.
- Sangeppato 7y ago
  The keycap and the scissor mechanism are replaceable, but not officially (at least it isn't on the 2012-2015 models). So if you have an issue with one key, Apple will likely still offer a whole top-case replacement (this is what they did with me with a 2015).
rconti 7y ago
How long 'till we can get this keyboard in a 13"?
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Rumor is early next year: https://www.macrumors.com/2019/11/18/13-inch-macbook-pro-scissor-keyboard-2020/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/11/18/13-inch-macbook-pro-sci...
Havoc 7y ago
Those half sized up/down cursor keys - does nobody within Apple use spreadsheets? I get that it's not their primary audience but surely of all the keys you'd want to mini-fy cursor would be one of the last?
- saagarjha 7y ago
  I really like the inverted-T arrangement. I have literally held off on buying a new Mac until they went back to that layout, since it lets me position my fingers on the keys better.
  - mjhagen 7y ago
    Yeah same here, I tried using keyboards with full-size left right arrow keys and I don't know why but I found that to be one of the hardest things to adjust to. And I type on lots of different keyboards.
- robertoandred 7y ago
  Are you saying that spreadsheet users would not benefit from keys that are easier to use by feel?
  - oneeyedpigeon 7y ago
    Note: they were talking about the size rather than the layout. I think the OP wants full-size cursor keys in an inverted T layout, which does sound like the best of both worlds to me.
- asdff 7y ago
  I love them. You gotta come off the home row to find them, better make it easy.
_bxg1 7y ago
iFixit can't cover an Apple device without injecting just a bit of snark and passive-aggression into it. People who buy these things know what they're getting. Score it how you want to, but spare me the sermon.
- arrrg 7y ago
  iFixit are not even pretending to be a neutral party here. They have a clear agenda and a clear viewpoint and that is very much the point. And there is nothing wrong with that. While I agree with them in broad strokes I also disagree on some points but that’s not the end of the world. We just disagree and that’s alright.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    They don't really present themselves as a political organization, just a business that tells you how to perform whatever operations you can perform on a given device and what those operations are, and sells you tools for doing so. They can tell you that you can't replace a lot of things on your MacBook without implying that they think it's every company's responsibility to make their devices apocalypse-proof.
thinkloop 7y ago
Why doesn't apple make the touchbar out of keys? The keys could be flat on top and seamlessly adjacent to one another to make a "bar", for sliders and such. But pressable like regular keys to make great buttons (most common use-case). I feel like that is inventable.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Like the Chromebook Pixel? I don't think sliding on that would work very well, since you'd end up pressing the keys…
  - thinkloop 7y ago
    You could have a locking mechanism that is activated when in bar mode.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    It has a touchbar?!
- InitialLastName 7y ago
  There are pretty much two ways to do this, neither one works well: 1) Overlay multiple transparent keys on a single display. This works OK in concept, but is hard to do mechanically gracefully. You would also end up with parallax issues with the touch functionality, if you could even get multi-point touch functionality working on key-faces like that. 2) Keys with small displays and captouch sensors in them: The display tech isn't quite there yet for this, AFAICT. I've seen demos of small, single-color OLEDS embedded in buttons, but none with touch overlays and nothing with a higher end display in them. Additionally, due to the bezel and gaps between the keys, it would be very difficult to get a consistent image across multiple keys/displays.
- benologist 7y ago
  Why don't they just do a BTO without it and please both sides?
- jonny383 7y ago
saagarjha 7y ago
> Stacked atop its slightly-older sibling (the 15-inch 2019 model), the new MacBook Pro has some noticeably larger exhaust holes. They look quite similar to the vents found in the Early 2015 Macbook Pro!
chmaynard 7y ago
A while back, I used to think hard about whether to purchase AppleCare to extend the warranty on a new MacBook Pro. Now, it's a no-brainer. Believe me, I know from hard experience that you won't regret it.
- benologist 7y ago
  The lack of repairability and fragility of recent models has driven up the repair price and the need for repairs so much it makes AppleCare vital now. Apple outright lied in Europe for years about warranty duration to upsell AppleCare and went to court multiple times before they stopped, these "replace most of the computer" repairs might be nothing more than a dark pattern sales optimization. During iFixit's live teardown of this device it turned out there was plenty of space for socketed ram and storage, as is consistent with devices much smaller. https://www.pcworld.com/article/253151/eu_law_forces_apple_two_year_warranty.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/253151/eu_law_forces_apple_t...
- akvadrako 7y ago
  Well I bought AppleCare because of the keyboard and I regret it. They refused to fix the nonworking keys because of a 1mm scratch on the back of the top case, saying it voided the warranty. So just a few hundred additional bucks wasted.
  - WA 7y ago
    I had the keyboard of my MBP 2017 replaced for free. Also, the display died roughly at the same time. At first, I thought it was a problem of the flex cable, but later I discovered a small crack. The Apple Store replaced the entire display for free, what is usually a $800 repair. I guess it depends a lot on the store, the country, maybe even the person you talk to.
- deleted 7y ago
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rhardih 7y ago
Would have hoped a note on the screen cable for this one. Wasn't a breaking/failing ribbon cable the biggest problem after the keyboard for that last couple of years models?
- JohnTHaller 7y ago
  The stage light flaw. Happened because Apple made the cable between the mainboard and the display panel in too short. Excacerbated because Apple soldered the cable to the display panel turning a $6 repair into a $600 repair. Rossman's video from January details the stupidity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzjoELvrkYo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzjoELvrkYo
- fit2rule 7y ago
  There is also the 'orange spot' problem, a manufacturing defect which Apple have successfully suppressed but which appears to be a mounting class action against them akin to the "peelgate" situation .. no mention if the new 2019 models have this same issue .. Apparently what happens is the liquid crystal particles separate from the grid and float around the screen, creating orange splotches that are very, very annoying. If you tilt the screen, over an hour the splotches will move around .. I've gotten to the point where I don't take my MBP 2018 off the desk just so that I don't have to watch the progress of the splotches over the day .. Very annoying. I hope they've fixed it, and I hope Apple are forced to replace these screens.
zelienople 7y ago
In case you haven't noticed, the planet is burning. Don't buy a laptop with a repairability score of 1.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Counterpoint: Apple's laptops have lasted me longer than any other computer I've had. I'm not sure that buying this is a net negative.
  - patatino 7y ago
    Counterpoint 2: I sold my 4-year-old MacBook Pro for 40% of the original price. Good luck doing that with any other device.
    - lm28469 7y ago
      > the planet is burning > yeah, but what about money That's a good summary of the situation.
  - hw 7y ago
    I have had my mid-2012 RMBP since 2012 and I haven't had to repair it yet (I might be an outlier). I'm hoping to trade in my 2012 and get the 16" and have it last another 7 years.
    - petepete 7y ago
      Mine's a 2013 model and I'm in the same boat. My X1 Carbon is being delivered today, the Mac put in a good shift but it's frozen a couple of times since the upgrade to a Catalina. Until the last month it's been perfect. I'll still use it for Affinity and Capture One, but as a contractor I need something I feel I can depend on.
      - rswail 7y ago
        Hang on, it's been perfect until you upgraded to Catalina? A release that is notoriously buggy? Why not downgrade back to Mojave?
ping_pong 7y ago
I just bought one and have been using it for a couple of days. So far so good. I still hate the TouchBar because it's completely useless, but the Esc key and directional keys was enough for me. I also have a 2018 MBP from work and the keyboard is shit. Within 3 weeks it was doubletyping and putting random .'s everywhere. I was days away from buying the top end Vaio and then I heard the news about the new MBP and decided to go for the MBP instead.
- deleted 7y ago
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- ctur 7y ago
  For those who can't upgrade yet, there is an open source utility, Unshaky (https://unshaky.nestederror.com/ https://unshaky.nestederror.com/), that can help with double presses. It's sad and gross that it is necessary but it works well on my aging MBP.
  - nknealk 7y ago
    Seconding Unshaky. I use it on my work computer (2018 15" MBP). Does a very good job of detecting these double key presses and mitigating them transparently.
  - ikornaselur 7y ago
    While this tool is really useful (installed it few days ago and it has dismissed 410 shaky presses!), this is covered by the Keyboard Service Program: https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-notebooks https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-n... You should be able to get the keyboard replaced for free, I just haven't found the time yet to go to an Apple store, but you shouldn't need to pay money and upgrade to fix this issue.
- hbosch 7y ago
  > putting random .'s everywhere. For anyone else having this problem, the new MBPs ship with the same autocorrect "feature" that comes on iOS where when you press spacebar twice (or, I should say, your keyboard thinks you pressed the spacebar twice) it inserts a period automatically. In addition, newer MBPs automatically capitalize and autocorrect spelling, like on mobile. You can disable this. I did, and, I don't think any desktop computer should be telling me how to type. I don't need help when I have a full keyboard. System Prefs > Keyboard > Text.
tolmasky 7y ago
I went with my gf to take a look at these last night at the Apple store. Her command key has completely stopped working on her 2018 MacBook that otherwise works perfectly fine. It feels clumsily large, especially since we’re coming from MacBook 13s. She kept asking me if I’d heard any rumors about when new 13s would come out. She went in pretty determined to get a new machine but decided to wait. The struggle continues for us 13ers I’m afraid. Not really excited to drop $3K+ on an even larger form factor I haven’t been excited about for upwards of 5 years (and being forced to upgrade to Catalina) just to fix what is now universally understood to be a defective keyboard design. I’m fairly convinced that this whole speaker business was to have something, anything, to differentiate it from the current models other than fixing the keyboard, and probably delayed this release. Someone said “we can’t seriously just ship a new laptop, with the same CPU as the current models, and just fix the keyboards!” It wouldn’t surprise me if the 13s haven’t come out yet for a similar reason.
- friedman23 7y ago
  I'm a power user and I'm really surprised you looked at this release as "just" fixing the keyboard. I'm more excited about this release than any other macbook release in the past 3 years. Increased base hd size, new graphics card with performance that stomps the previous model, more available RAM, the largest battery legally possible on a laptop, and a larger screen in the same form factor as the previous 15 inch model. There are actually no downsides to this laptop except the touch bar.
  - dylan604 7y ago
    There are actually no downsides to this laptop except the touch bar <that have been realized at this time>. FTFY. No Gen 1 Apple product has been without it's flaws. Some just take time to make themselves known.
  - tolmasky 7y ago
    The keyboard is the “only” thing that matters for someone that bought a computer about a year ago, so yeah. 64GB of RAM and 8TB of SSD are great, that’s why I have a desktop computer with those specs for half the price. I love big screens too, which is why I have an actual big monitor on my desktop, not “big considering the form factor it’s in”. Getting those specs on the MacBook Pro puts you into the $6K territory, so I don’t think for most people that’s actually a difference. The absolute upper bound has increased, but what I get for the price I just paid about a year ago isn’t that much different. Meanwhile, my laptop is for mobility and not where I boil the ocean. Sure, I’ve wanted 32GB on my 13 inch for years, still waiting though. Look, I get that there exists a market for super high end laptops, but there is arguably a much larger market for, like, mobile laptops that can type correctly. It’s annoying that I have to get pushed into the ultra niche high end laptop market, with specs that I specifically don’t even care that much about (I have no use for a better graphics card, especially an AMD graphics card that ensures I can’t use it for ML), just to get a keyboard that puts one e on the screen when I hit the e key once.
v3nn 7y ago
Looks like the mobo came from space invaders.
jonny383 7y ago
Seriously, fuck off, Apple. Gluing and rivets - does this actually accomplish any kind of real measurable cost-saving or just introduce bullshit vendor lock-in? Same deal for soldered RAM. Pro-tip for everyone wanting to LEAVE Tim Cook's sinking hardware ship: Buy a Dell XPS 15, install Linux and enjoy being able to: 1. Upgrade your own RAM 2. Install a second 2.5" SSD 3. Being able to easily remove components from the notebook 4. Replace your own battery 5. Switch your Wireless card And considering the train-wreck that was macOS Catalina, Linux actually looks stable in comparison.
- Razengan 7y ago
  > Buy a Dell XPS 15 No. Windows sucks ass and Linux isn't as good as macOS, even with all the later's bugs recently. And Mac trackpads are awesome.
  - jonny383 7y ago
    Read comment. Install Linux. XPS has Linux hardware support. 0/10.
- rimliu 7y ago
  I just want to use my computer, not playing computer tech with it.
  - jonny383 7y ago
    Until your keyboard breaks and you're not just using your computer - you're playing Apple with the "genius" at the genius bar.
- IAmEveryone 7y ago
  If you're "switching wireless cards" you're using computers as a toy. Wireless just works, these days. And if it doesn't, whatever Apple decided to put in MacBook is unlikely to be the culprit. If you consider recompiling kernels and and overclocking your caps lock LEDs to be fun that's fine, but don't delude yourself into thinking it has anything to do with productive work or professionalism.
jonny383 7y ago
Nice edit without the edit note. 0/10.
- deleted 7y ago
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- deleted 7y ago
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turk73 7y ago
Apple, what the hell is so hard to understand about the need to makes these fucking things more repairable? They cost thousands of dollars for for fuck's sake! I have a work issued one that if anything goes wrong with I will get a new work-issued one. If I had to do this on my own I would be SOL if the thing breaks and I don't have your expensive AppleCare plan which is just a screw job on the little guy. If that's not reasonable, it's time to think about landfills and computer scrap piles and do the right thing here. The 1/10 repair score tells the whole story--it's not repairable, on purpose, you corporate shitbirds. The fucking dongles were another ass raping of the consumer, let's get that straightened back out. At my company we have meetings where we show up and then someone has to run and get a dongle to use the projector. We never had to worry about this crap in the past, we would got to meetings and be PRODUCTIVE. I velcroed a dongle to my screen but everyone borrows it and then I forget it half the time because it's in a conference room somewhere. I suggested my company buy buckets of the stupid things so they would be everywhere, but they cost like $50 apiece. More landfill mess eventually, too.
pckls 7y ago
I'm very patiently waiting for modular components. Apple's hardware is certainly beautiful but IMO not worth the upfront premium PLUS the additional premium for repairs. From a hardware eng perspective, is there a clear advantage for hardwiring components?
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > From a hardware eng perspective, is there a clear advantage for hardwiring components? Yeah: it saves space and reduces complexity. A more modular MacBook would almost certainly be missing features or be bigger/thicker.
leoh 7y ago
I bought a MBP 15" around the time of the fall keynote because the 16" was not announced. Does anyone know how I can replace it with a 16"? The keyboard really is driving me nuts.
ksec 7y ago
For those who are not in a hurry to upgrade, ( If you are on 2015 MBP ), the next upgrade which should be soon, will get you WiFi 6 and Icelake, with 20%+ IPC and hopefully Apple will throw in 10 Core Config in as well. I kind of felt Apple rushed as the problem with Keyboard were big enough and Apple had to release something to calm the market, not to mention Intel 10nm Icelake is late as usual. And of all the thing Apple backtrack, I really wish they bring back AirPort Extreme.
- jerrre 7y ago
  do you have a source?
  - danpalmer 7y ago
    These will likely be features of the Intel product lineup, which is a lot more public than Apples roadmap but which is very intertwined for anything processor related, which likely includes WiFi.
- ralfd 7y ago
  AFAIK the current available Icelake CPUs are low power (9-15 Watt) and have only 4 cores. For the MacBook Pro Intel has to release something beefier.
  - ksec 7y ago
    Yes and that is assuming their 10nm do yield... and so far there is no sign of that happening.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  For those who are not in a hurry to upgrade There is always something new just around the corner.
  - ksec 7y ago
    >There is always something new just around the corner. True, but something new isn't always something better, and isn't always worth waiting for. Aka 2016 - 2019 MBP 15". And in the above cases, I consider Icelake IPC and Security improvement along with WiFI 6 to be quite a significant upgrade, not the same could be said for the past 3 update of MacBook Pro.
guardian5x 7y ago
The Surface Laptop 3 scored a 5 at least, which was a big improvement over previous generations. I wish Apple would try to improve repairability as well.
- Sangeppato 7y ago
  While this is true, the battery (which is likely the only component most people will need/want to replace) is still glued to the case, the RAM is soldered and I'm not sure Microsoft will provide a replacement keyboard to you for a decent price. I mean, I was very happy about the Laptop 3 repairability, but if the MBP is 1/10, then 5/10 looks a bit too much to me.
mscasts 7y ago
I love how Apple claim to care so much about the environment and then goes on to create basically the most unfixable pieces of hardware possible. Great job, really awesome for the environment Apple.
- nautical 7y ago
  + they will be charging absurd amount for small fixes that were possible to do on own. example RAM is soldered to the logic board!
  - asaddhamani 7y ago
    Forget about the RAM. The SSD is also soldered to the logic board. That's ridiculous.
    - kmlx 7y ago
      isn't this for performance purposes?
      - _ph_ 7y ago
        There are perfectly fast m.2 modules, that would mean only minor differences in peformance, if any at all. My iMac actually runs perfectly fine on a SATA SSD, though this is definitely slower than the soldered-on SSD of my MB Pro.
      - jaytaylor 7y ago
        Soldering it down doesn't provide any quantifiable performance improvements. It probably allows them to make it smaller / thinner, and less expensive to manufacture. However, now if any one component (memory, CPU, SSD drive) goes bad the entire set must be tossed! When this happens, it will be expensive for the unlucky customer. All so Apple could avoid including a bit more plastic for the component sockets. Also, SSD drives have a limited number of write cyclew before they stop working, usually some 10's of TBW (terabytes written). For normal users, it will take them a very long time to wear out the drive. Conversely, developers and power user types may find their setups doing 50GB or more of writes per day. So for example, if a drive is rated for 75TBW, a power user could wear it out after only a couple of years. I have some Samsung SSDs at home where I regularly track and monitor the write usage, and I'm always surprised at how many writes occur on my [often idle] Windows machine. Background OS and application activity is my hypothesis for the cause. The primary windows partition drive will probably need replacing within a year, and will have lasted three or four years.
Spacemolte 7y ago
I like my 13 inch retina 2013 model, and i guess i will be holding on to that as long as possible.
w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago
Basically a throw-away computer.
meerita 7y ago
I dropped a beer in my 2017 model, and i screwed up all the spacebar, and the command and option keys in one side. They were really hard to use until some days ago they started working. The prior models were better for maintenance and resistant to these abuses with liquids.
BuildTheRobots 7y ago
This is probably a stupid question, but why have they got two different flavours of RAM? * 16x Micron MT40A1G8SA-075 8 Gb DDR4 SDRAM (16 GB total) * 4x Samsung K4Z80325BC-HC14 8 Gb GDDR6 RAM (4 GB total)
- jmull 7y ago
  I think the GDDR6 is for the GPU
  - tecleandor 7y ago
    Yep. GDDR stands for Graphics DDR.
arminiusreturns 7y ago
Does anybody know the current state of installing linux on one? Doe the latest kernel fixes to SPI make things like the keyboard work now?
redm 7y ago
I switched from a pair of Mac Pro's to a 15" Macbook Pro last year. The 15" was the first laptop to support quad 4k displays (what I was using with my Mac Pro). The laptop has been fantastic, with the exception of cooling. The cooling is bad enough that I keep it (when it's hooked up to my quad 4k displays) upside down, with 2 plastic cups, to keep it from overheating. I'm mostly interested in the enhanced cooling. If it's really that much better, it may be time to upgrade. Has anyone had similar experiences?
- azimuth11 7y ago
  Yes. Everyone in my office complains about it.

413 points by robin_reala 7y ago

Most important point: Apple fixed the keyboard by ditching the flawed keyboard used for the past 3 years and returning to the Magic Keyboard scissor switch design. Comparing the 'new' keyboard to the Magic Keyboard: "side by side, we're hard pressed to spot any differences. Scissor switches, keycaps... There's slightly less space surrounding these new keys, and pundits will celebrate those reconfigured arrow keys—but everything else looks nigh identical."

webwielder2 7y ago
The Magic Keyboard design is not the 2012-2015 MBP keyboard design, it's the design from their line of external keyboards. iFixit's jokey intro is misleading in this regard.
- deleted 7y ago
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- pwthornton 7y ago
  This is correct. The Magic keyboard has been beloved for several years, and it is not a keyboard that has ever been in a laptop before.
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    Ugh. I despise the "magic" keyboard as there's way too little travel. I always found the whole thing a bit physically painful. It's never going to happen but I'd love to see a return of the Aluminum / Titanium PowerBook keyboard.
    - jacobolus 7y ago
      Those were great, but having slightly sculpted keytops and longer travel takes an extra 2–3 millimeters of vertical space, which isn’t going to cut it if the #1 goal is for the folded up machine to be as thin as possible. Personally I wish sommeone went back to the keyboards used on IBM 5140 or IBM P70. Probably not too likely though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Convertible https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Convertible https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_P70/P75_keyboard https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_P70/P75_keyboard
      - torgian 7y ago
        Meh. Give me a fully mechanical keyboard in a somewhat portable body. Like those old Apple IIe boxes. This is a joke btw.
        jacobolus 7y ago
        The two I linked to were “fully mechanical keyboards in a somewhat portable body” (for very modest definitions of “somewhat portable” – they were 13 and 20 pounds, respectively). Not really “laptops”, but two fantastic keyboards.
        torgian 7y ago
        TBH I was trying for a joke, but it came out pretty flat ._.
        DennisP 7y ago
        It's a joke for you but a laptop with a good mech keyboard is exactly what I want. I plug a mechanical keyboard into my laptop all the time, because it's easier on my fingers. A thicker laptop that I can type on is better for me than carrying around a separate mech and putting the laptop on a nearby flat surface instead of my lap.
        gambiting 7y ago
        Those do exist - MSI and Asus made a few recently I'm sure. For example: https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/msi-gt75vr-titan-pro https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/msi-gt75vr-titan-p... I mean, at 4.5kg it's extremely heavy for a laptop, but it does have a mechanical keyboard and very beefy spec.
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      And I found that the ones that came with a previous employers mac minis tended to fail quite quickly I had 2 or 3 in my parts cupboard with all the other broken and old equipment. And I also did not like the feel Put it this way I brought in an old Zenith keyboard from a p90 system from the mid 90's to use instead.
  - cassianoleal 7y ago
    Personally, I prefer the MBP2015 keyboard to the Magic Keyboard. I have been to an Apple Store recently to try out the MBP16's keyboard and it's good - but not as good as the one I'm typing this on. I also don't understand the obsession with key stability on the corners. I like the instability. I use it when I'm touch typing - it gives my fingers a lot more tactile feedback.
    - torgian 7y ago
      That probably means the keyboard isn’t that good ;) Sloppiness shouldn’t make it feel better.
      - dannyw 7y ago
        Instability allows you to know exactly where your fingertip is positioned once you know it.
        visarga 7y ago
        Having the keycaps slightly curved inside allows for better finger positioning.
        ahartmetz 7y ago
        Yes! Fujitsu desktop keyboards have rather pronounced concave keys - not fashionable but very nice to type on. (They have also figured out tactile response with rubber domes.)
        lostgame 7y ago
        I miss the 2004-2007 PowerBook / OG MacBook Pro keyboard. Curved keys, great feeling on depression, this was paradise for me.
        cassianoleal 7y ago
        Exactly this. Also, the instability means the keyboard is more forgiving of small aim mistakes. If my finger presses 10% of the wrong key and 90% of the right one, key stability on the corners will mean the keyboard registers both. On the 2015 keyboard it only registers the one I meant. The fact that it wobbles also gives my fingers an extra milisecond to adjust position if it feels it's wrong. It's also more obvious when I did hit the wrong place and I can automatically reach for the backspace/delete key without even thinking or noticing the wrong key visually on screen. It's overall a more fluid typing experience. This is especially useful when I'm typing at night or if my fingers are not moving optimally - like when they're cold or otherwise tight or tired.
  - eugeniub 7y ago
    To me it actually seems that the 16" keyboard is a brand new keyboard, that has never been in any laptop or external keyboard. But it's derived from the external Magic Keyboard and shares the marketing name. It has 1mmb of key travel, which is less than the 1.25mm of the external Magic Keyboard. It's also less than the 1.35mm of the 2015 MBP. But it's much more than the 0.5mm travel of the Butterfly keyboard. This is all to say that although the 16" MBP has a new scissor-based keyboard, it's not quite fair to say it's the same as the Magic Keyboard. And although it probably fixes all of the keyboard woes of the past couple years, I would still wait a few months and see.
  - gnicholas 7y ago
    I love (and am typing this on) a bluetooth keyboard that came with my 2008 iMac. Is the "magic keyboard" (which apparently came out in 2015 and is lower-profile than its predecessors) sufficiently better to warrant the moniker "magic"?
    - agloeregrets 7y ago
      They branded it as such to match the Magic Mouse and Magic Trackpad (the only product to earn the name) It is a rechargeable Bluetooth keyboard, no real magic, little innovation. It is a very nice Bluetooth keyboard though, reliable, easy to clean, feels higher quality
  - nbevans 7y ago
    I have a full size Magic keyboard (because my MBP 2018 keys started dying and they couldn't guarantee same-day repair) and it really isn't all that. Sometimes I get a similar feeling as the MBP keyboard in that it seems to "miss" keystrokes, or get them in the wrong order. Though admittedly the worse MBP characteristic of doubling or tripling up a single keystroke is not there.
- Twirrim 7y ago
  I rarely complain about that kind of stuff, but the sheer number of jokes in that article had it reaching the "trying too hard to be funny" stage in near record time.
  - larusso 7y ago
    I felt the same way. And I consider myself a very funny person. Like it’s written by Deadpool.
- skocznymroczny 7y ago
  I wish Apple released a butterfly switch external keyboard. I know I am in a minority here but I really loved these new flat keyboards on Macbooks and I'd love to have a keyboard like that for my Windows PC.
  - nautical 7y ago
    How long you have been using the keyboard ? Mine got screwed after couple of months of usage (I took really good care of it as I had read about the initial backlash)
    - Ralfp 7y ago
      I've got my MBP in November 2016, as soon as it became available in my country. I was using it at home and office, carrying between both of those locations using sleeve, taking extra care to don't mess my precious new laptop up. Its keyboard worked perfectly all this time. Reading about all the keyboard woes others had, I've been wondering if I am just lucky. In November 2018 I've traveled to another town with my laptop (in the sleeve, as usual). This was single day travel and it turned out that I've didn't even have to pull it from the bag a single time. After coming home 10 hours later I've pulled my laptop from the sleeve and pressed "R" key. It didn't "click". I've pressed it again. It didn't click either, but it sticked to the tip of my finger and popped out of its slot. I was now part of the people blessed with keyboard fault.
bpye 7y ago
But it's riveted to the chassis - you cannot replace the keyboard still.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  Apple will never give you a modular, easy to repair system. It just isn't going to happen, time to move on.
  - ergothus 7y ago
    While you make a solid point about likely behavior, I'm sure there are those that said Microsoft will never cooperate with Linux. "Never" is a bold word, and it's worth highlighting things like a hard-to-replace/repair keyboard to keep on that tiny bit of pressure to change (how often have you been in a meeting where "customers aren't asking for this" came up as a justification to not make a change?). Also, just to let people KNOW - when buying a laptop you may not be considering if the keyboard is easy to service. Plenty of developers on any given day are making their first foray into these sorts of decisions, and there's nothing wrong with pointing out that which is obvious if you've been following for a decade but not if you're new to it.
    - braythwayt 7y ago
      Perhaps another way to put it is, "This iteration of Apple will never..." Which carries with it a significant piece of information: Someone saying this is claiming that there is some structural or cultural obstacle, and that the company would have to change its nature in order to effect the requried change. That was the case with Microsoft and Linux as well.
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      That's fair, but it would take a massive change in both consumer behavior and Apple's target audience to make something like this come about. But hey, ya never know.
      - 7y ago
wetpaws 7y ago
The easiest way to improve a good laptop is to make a bad update and then revert it.
- stcredzero 7y ago
  It's the "New Coke" maneuver.
  - rzzzt 7y ago
    The Sonic movie's main character redesign is also a good example.
machello13 7y ago
This is exactly what Apple said they did.
Razengan 7y ago
I personally dislike the shortened left and right arrow keys. Where can I raise a mob to clamor about it so I can have the full-sized keys back in 3 years?
choppaface 7y ago
Key travel for the 2016 is 1mm. The "bad" keyboards had 0.5-0.7mm travel. 2015 and earlier had 1.2-1.5mm travel. Not sure about the reliability of the new mechanism, but the 2016 keyboard does feel much more like the old 2015 one. https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/11/15/heres-what-the-16-inch-macbook-pro-keyboard-sounds-like https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/11/15/heres-what-the-16...
- ksec 7y ago
  >Key travel for the 2016 is 1mm Well even your article say the 2016 keyboard are the same to 2017 and 2018 which is 0.6-0.7mm. Although the general accepted Key Travel for 2016 - 2019 15"MBP are 0.5mm.
  - oe 7y ago
    Maybe they meant the 16" laptop which has 1mm of travel.
VvR-Ox 7y ago
This is one of the reasons I didn't buy any new MBP after 2016 anymore. I was so unsatisfied with many changes ranging from the keyboard disaster to the loss of ports that are still industry standard and used every day for some years to come. Probably this is the start for Apple to find back to some quality and say goodbye to strange experiments. Users should feel good using a device and not pay a lot of $$$ to become Beta-Test Lab Rats.
- gbersac 7y ago
  I personnaly support their "all usb C" politics. A world where every device will share the same cable will be better.
  - allendoerfer 7y ago
    All phones do. Except that one from Apple.
  - VvR-Ox 7y ago
    I basically concur but not all of us can just "flick a switch" here. The most of my customers still need a lot of "obsolete" connectors as well as my devices which I won't replace just because they have no USB-C yet. In 5-10 years maybe but they will come up with other standards until then and the race will go on. I think it is a matter of your domain(s) how cutting-edge your choices can be.
- w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago
  These were no experiment. These changes were only a matter of cutting cost. The new butterfly system was cheaper to produce than the old one. Old keyboard design were more complicated. And the keys made from a more sturdy plastic. I have removed and replaced several keys on both kind keyboard and I broke partially 2 key from the new keyboard, using a more fragile plastic but none of the old version, this taking account to the fact that the new key were more easy to remove. The USB-C choice was also about reducing cost. Integrate 2 USB-C is less expensive than integrate 1 power input, 2 thunderbolts, 2 USB 3, 1 card reader, and 1 hdmi output. Removing the MacSafe for the cheap defective usb-c power plug (after 1 year, the cable don't stay stuck anymore in the USB-C, causing the macbook battery to discharge without useur knowledge, and forcing him to push back the cable a least 10 time as day because of the low quality of the component, no matter the cable you used to plug your macbook) was also about cutting cost. On the pretense to changing design and and adopting new trends, the have cut cost by reducing the quality and the number of feature of their computer. That's how they became the richest company in the world.

Basketb926 7y ago

Repairability 1/10

rahuldottech 7y ago
Unsure why this is getting downvotes. This is literally the conclusion of the article/video.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
sigzero 7y ago
Yeah, not surprising. That isn't Apple's focus on their product lines at all.
mikepurvis 7y ago
Also known as "better include the three years of Apple Care coverage in the cost of the computer."
- dijit 7y ago
  Three? Isn't it 2? (which overlaps with the mandatory 1yr warranty period)
  - kgermino 7y ago
    I think it varies by country. In the US it’s 2 years on top of the 1 year included warranty, so 3 total. You mention a mandatory 1 year so I assume you’re non-US and I don’t know what it would be for you.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - ihuman 7y ago
    It's 3 years for me (US), but it might be worded differently if you get a mandatory 1 year. https://www.apple.com/support/products/mac/ https://www.apple.com/support/products/mac/

Mobius01 7y ago

I just replaced the keyboard on a ThinkPad T440p, and it didn’t seem to add a significant bulk to the machine’s profile. It took me 2 minutes flat.

smilekzs 7y ago
+1. The serviceability of ThinkPads had always been a great (if not hidden) feature, almost allowing Ship-of-Theseus-ish rolling upgrades like a desktop. Even though the build quality has generally declined since the T410 era, this at least has been preserved (I have a company-issued P50 and it's still a few screws away from changing RAM and SSD).
- berbec 7y ago
  I replaced the trackpad on an x240 and it took me 2 hours and a few broken spudgers. I would have been able to swap everything else out first, as the touchpad was buried under motherboard, keyboard, hard drives etc.
  - dfox 7y ago
    That is essentially the feature of the “good” thinkpads. You can replace almost anything, but the whole thing is built in this weird upside-down way and replacing anything that you really want to replace means that you have to take the whole thing almost completely apart. On the other hand if you read the official procedure for that and take inspiration from that, the only tool you really need to take it completely apart and assemble back is literally an cheapest swiss army knife which includes philips screwdriver.
  - philsnow 7y ago
    I replaced the AC barrel connector on an x220, which required removing every single part from the chassis. It took me probably four hours all told, and a few gray hairs (it was my wife's laptop, and yes I had a backup of everything on it, but didn't want to need to replace it). An Apple laptop would have been shipped off who knows where for three weeks, if fixing that part were even possible.

rahuldottech 7y ago

So no upgradable RAM, no upgradable storage. If either stops functioning, you have to change the entire logic board (including the CPU and GPU? I'm not sure). Wow this is a crappy design. But expected, since this is Apple that we're talking about.

mumblemumble 7y ago
What's interesting about this perception is that PC vendors who do the same things don't catch flak. Presumably because there are still options for PC that are at least theoretically repairable and built to last. I wonder what would happen in a hypothetical world where there were pro and non-Pro Apple laptops, but the only real difference between them were that the Pro laptops had replaceable parts, and were however much larger/heavier/pricier they need to be to make that happen, while the non-Pro ones are all soldered and riveted together. My guess is that the ones that are soldered together vastly outsell the pro line because that's what most Apple consumers want. And then economies of scale kick in until everyone's just mad that Apple is charging $500 "tax" just to be able to replace the hard drive and upgrade the RAM.
- jotm 7y ago
  That's because Apple is the only hardware provider for Mac OS X. If you just want Windows or Linux, you have a lot of choices. If you want OS X, there's no choice but to put up with whatever hardware Apple gives you.
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    That's not entirely true with Hackintoshes being a thing now.
    - jotm 7y ago
      That's only for exalted characters with nice hats and beards. If you want to run MacOSX legally without risking a lawsuit from Apple (they even went after a repair shop, FFS), you must use their hardware, as per the license agreement.

Tepix 7y ago

It‘s not a very professional device if you can‘t upgrade the storage and the memory. The Mac Pro will feature modular SSDs (and they aren‘t even super fast). I wonder if Apple will use something proprietary or standard M.2 NVMe modules. They probably can‘t offer PCIe 4.0 slots since they‘re using Intel which is trailing behind.

pwthornton 7y ago
This is an odd definition of professional. To me, what you can do with it and the kinds of jobs it enables is what makes a computer pro or not.
- blacksmith_tb 7y ago
  I think the distinction being made is that something for casual use (like a Chromebook, or an iPad) doesn't really carry with it the expectation that you will be repairing or upgrading components - if something fails, you replace the whole (relatively cheap) device. For a machine that has a pricetag in the thousands, not hundreds, of dollars/euro, that isn't a very appealing approach...
  - outworlder 7y ago
    Hopefully you'll have Apple care, which will allow you to replace the whole machine without paying for an entirely new one. If you need it for a living, it's a no brainer. Is it malfunctioning? Take it to an Apple store, grab a brand new device, restore it from Time Machine and resume where you left off. You could be back up and running in a couple of hours as if nothing had happened. You could potentially waste a lot more than that trying to troubleshoot and then ordering new parts. That only works if you have good Apple Store coverage though. Otherwise, the table flips.
    - InitialLastName 7y ago
      That's also a reason to make it less repairable. If you can replace parts with aftermarket parts, the gray area of applecare support is much bigger. People who are using these computers "professionally" mostly don't want to fiddle with modifying them. They want a computer that will be reliable, and whose failure will cost them the smallest work interruption.

PhasmaFelis 7y ago

Apple rolling back the keyboard design and lack of Escape key reminds me of the satirical "Upgrade to Windows 7 (from Windows 8)" article from six or seven years ago, joyfully describing how Windows was back on track after 7 fixed most of 8's problems.

dijit 7y ago

I can't find any information on the SSD flash chips; does anyone have any info on if they're MLC or 3D Nand? That would impact the wear of the drives considerably.

asciident 7y ago
Which ones last longer?
- dijit 7y ago
  MLC would last longer than 3D NAND, SLC would last significantly longer than both; but nobody is shipping SLC for at least 5 years now it seems :(
  - wtallis 7y ago
    Nobody is manufacturing planar NAND flash memory in high volume or in die sizes large enough to fit multiple TBs of flash into a notebook. The only viable options currently being manufactured are all 3D NAND. The vast majority of this (and what is used by almost all SSDs across all market segments) is 3D TLC NAND flash memory—TLC meaning it stores 3 bits per physical memory cell. MLC would typically refer to storing two bits per cell, SLC means one bit per cell, and QLC means four bits per cell. There is no reason to prefer MLC these days. TLC has plenty of write endurance for client/consumer usage. MLC offers theoretical advantages in performance and endurance, but these are absolutely not worth the higher cost that comes from lower density. (And that's comparing 3D MLC against 3D TLC; high-density planar MLC loses against 3D TLC on all counts.) There is a niche market for SLC NAND in high-performance server applications that need the lowest possible latency from their SSDs, and Samsung and Toshiba are currently manufacturing memory to suit this use case. But it again has density too low for multi-TB SSDs to fit into a laptop.
- skavi 7y ago
  They were likely actually referring to MLC vs TLC vs QLC. All three types can be manufactured in the stacked "3D" form. MLC stores 2 bits per cell, TLC store 3, and QLC stores 4. MLC is the fastest and most reliable form, while QLC is the cheapest. The MacBook Pro likely uses TLC like the vast majority of current consumer machines. Apple's SSDs are typically among the fastest available, but I haven't been able to find anything about reliability.

dzhiurgis 7y ago

>The X-rays make it even angrier! Run away! Luckily our friends at Creative Electron are taking all the risk here—we'll resume disassembly after things calm down. Not sure what is the allusion to here, but anyone else noticed static discharge you get after airport xray scans your macbook?

arthurcolle 7y ago
Just noticed this on my last trip. Those poor bits never knew what hit 'em.
pvg 7y ago
That might have more to do with you, in your socks, walking on plastic while your metal-encased laptop goes through something that could be used as a part of a Van de Graaff generator.
Someone1234 7y ago
I believe that is caused by the rubber conveyor belt carrying the laptop through in a nylon bag rather than the x-ray itself. You can get the same effect from other non-x-ray conveyor belts at the airport.
tedunangst 7y ago
I believe they're just saying that the angry owl face is more prominent in the X-ray image. The eyebrows are more pronounced.

oceliker 7y ago

> A beloved old feature returns to the MacBook Pro, and it starts with M-a-g. Way to play with my heart, iFixit.

Rapzid 7y ago
Soo, I take it magsafe is not back?
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Nope, still USB-C :(
  - lispm 7y ago
    I bought a Magsafe-like USB-C cable...
    - cerberusss 7y ago
      That's quite interesting, which one did you get? What are your impressions so far? And can it be used for data?
      - djaychela 7y ago
        I bought an add-on USB-C 'magsafe' adapter when I bought my 2017 MBP 13" [1]. I had planned to leave the one bit in the laptop, and use it like a magsafe, but it didn't work out well - it wasn't as magnetic or as positive in location as a real magsafe (it tended to fold 'sideways' too easily), and in the end I just stopped using it because it became more of a pain than the real risk of it getting dragged off a table (the only location I used to use it was at my girlfriend's house in the kitchen and I took to just taking the cable out when I walked away to save the kids having a nightmare). [1] - https://snapnator.com/ https://snapnator.com/
        cerberusss 7y ago

alberth 7y ago

Call me crazy but I must be the only person who enjoys typing on the old butterfly keyboard. Yes I was one of those people who originally thought the travel was too small but after using it for a couple hours I found the low travel was a huge relief to Carpal Tunnel and I also typed much faster. Maybe I have the only keyboard that “works” but I love me some butterfly keyboards.

daftdoki 7y ago
You're crazy. Hey, you asked.
karmelapple 7y ago
I enjoy the butterfly keyboard, but once the keys started putting two spaces in when I said one, or putting two of other letters, or none of yet other letters, it got old really fast. Still like my keyboard, and would be happy to have it back if Apple fixed the reliability issues. FWIW, I like the iPad keyboard feel, too.
- alberth 7y ago
  FYI - as a hack ... you can turn off double spaces in the macOS. https://howchoo.com/g/njiwm2flndj/disable-double-space-bar-period-dot-macos https://howchoo.com/g/njiwm2flndj/disable-double-space-bar-p...
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    That's a software feature. In this case I believe they're talking about the keyboard itself double-typing.
  - bluedino 7y ago
    This does nothing for the keypresses that don't register at all
- udfalkso 7y ago
  Try Unshaky. Helped me with multiple double key press issues

pcr910303 7y ago

As I have already said in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21524049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21524049: > I hate the wobbly feeling that the scissor mechanism produces. Apple didn't need to return to the scissor mechanism, it should have reiterated the design. I'm very disappointed that Apple just gave up & used the safe way of regressing back. > It feels like Apple is losing the spirit of doing things itself, whether other people dislikes it. Apple is more and more becoming a usual company that just does what consumers demands. And I'm sad with that.

EpicEng 7y ago
In this case, consumers were demanding a keyboard that... ya know, works for more than six months. Maybe they did try to iterate, but the fundamental design was just flawed. Who knows? Maybe they'll change it again down the road, but you only have so long between revs, and they had a design which works in their back pocket.
randyrand 7y ago
Having 3 repair programs is not a sign of just doing things “different”.

rconti 7y ago

I don't get their dust-proofing membrane comment: > News flash: there's not even a dust-proofing membrane on these new switches. We're inclined to take this as a very good sign. (It means we can finally eat Doritos during teardowns again.) That sounds counter-intuitive. Can someone explain?

zabuni 7y ago
They don't have the membrane because they don't need it. With the old keyboards, any spec of dust would cause them to stick. That means these are back to the original, non-fragile keyboards with good travel.
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Lammy 7y ago
The first butterfly keyboard design had problems with dust intruding and breaking the delicate switches. The second butterfly keyboard design was claimed "fixed" by adding the dust-proofing membrane.
jayd16 7y ago
Without the membrane you can pop off keys and clean as needed. The membrane would tear if you try to pull off keys.

dfabulich 7y ago

Wait, so are individual keys repairable, or not? This ifixit article says, "Once again, the keyboard assembly is riveted down. Though the switches are likely less vulnerable to crumbly assailants, the keyboard itself isn't any more repairable than the Butterfly boards." That directly contradicts statements from Apple to The Verge. https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/13/20962380/apples-16-inch-macbook-pro-keyboard-screen-speakers-processor https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/13/20962380/apples-16-inch-... "Apple says that it has done extra work to stabilize the keycaps, made them slightly smaller so there’s more space between the keys, and that if a key breaks you can just replace that one key without taking apart the whole laptop." This seems like a strange thing for Apple to lie about. What's the real truth here, I wonder? EDIT: It seems that ifixit is just wrong about this, and the keyboard is at least somewhat more repairable than the butterfly model. The keycaps are replaceable (allowing you to spray compressed air directly onto debris) and the white part of the switch is replaceable.

LeoPanthera 7y ago
The keycaps are replacable but the keyswitches are not. I don't know of any Apple laptop that ever had replacable keyswitches.
- jmull 7y ago
  It looks like the white piece beneath the keycap (I guess that's the "scissor mechanism") is replaceable too.
  - ralfd 7y ago
    Apple statement wouldn't make sense otherwise. The point of failure is the scissor mechanism and I never heard of a key cap breaking.
Sangeppato 7y ago
The keycap and the scissor mechanism are replaceable, but not officially (at least it isn't on the 2012-2015 models). So if you have an issue with one key, Apple will likely still offer a whole top-case replacement (this is what they did with me with a 2015).

rconti 7y ago

How long 'till we can get this keyboard in a 13"?

saagarjha 7y ago
Rumor is early next year: https://www.macrumors.com/2019/11/18/13-inch-macbook-pro-scissor-keyboard-2020/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/11/18/13-inch-macbook-pro-sci...

Havoc 7y ago

Those half sized up/down cursor keys - does nobody within Apple use spreadsheets? I get that it's not their primary audience but surely of all the keys you'd want to mini-fy cursor would be one of the last?

saagarjha 7y ago
I really like the inverted-T arrangement. I have literally held off on buying a new Mac until they went back to that layout, since it lets me position my fingers on the keys better.
- mjhagen 7y ago
  Yeah same here, I tried using keyboards with full-size left right arrow keys and I don't know why but I found that to be one of the hardest things to adjust to. And I type on lots of different keyboards.
robertoandred 7y ago
Are you saying that spreadsheet users would not benefit from keys that are easier to use by feel?
- oneeyedpigeon 7y ago
  Note: they were talking about the size rather than the layout. I think the OP wants full-size cursor keys in an inverted T layout, which does sound like the best of both worlds to me.
asdff 7y ago
I love them. You gotta come off the home row to find them, better make it easy.

_bxg1 7y ago

iFixit can't cover an Apple device without injecting just a bit of snark and passive-aggression into it. People who buy these things know what they're getting. Score it how you want to, but spare me the sermon.

arrrg 7y ago
iFixit are not even pretending to be a neutral party here. They have a clear agenda and a clear viewpoint and that is very much the point. And there is nothing wrong with that. While I agree with them in broad strokes I also disagree on some points but that’s not the end of the world. We just disagree and that’s alright.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  They don't really present themselves as a political organization, just a business that tells you how to perform whatever operations you can perform on a given device and what those operations are, and sells you tools for doing so. They can tell you that you can't replace a lot of things on your MacBook without implying that they think it's every company's responsibility to make their devices apocalypse-proof.

thinkloop 7y ago

Why doesn't apple make the touchbar out of keys? The keys could be flat on top and seamlessly adjacent to one another to make a "bar", for sliders and such. But pressable like regular keys to make great buttons (most common use-case). I feel like that is inventable.

saagarjha 7y ago
Like the Chromebook Pixel? I don't think sliding on that would work very well, since you'd end up pressing the keys…
- thinkloop 7y ago
  You could have a locking mechanism that is activated when in bar mode.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  It has a touchbar?!
InitialLastName 7y ago
There are pretty much two ways to do this, neither one works well: 1) Overlay multiple transparent keys on a single display. This works OK in concept, but is hard to do mechanically gracefully. You would also end up with parallax issues with the touch functionality, if you could even get multi-point touch functionality working on key-faces like that. 2) Keys with small displays and captouch sensors in them: The display tech isn't quite there yet for this, AFAICT. I've seen demos of small, single-color OLEDS embedded in buttons, but none with touch overlays and nothing with a higher end display in them. Additionally, due to the bezel and gaps between the keys, it would be very difficult to get a consistent image across multiple keys/displays.
benologist 7y ago
Why don't they just do a BTO without it and please both sides?
jonny383 7y ago

saagarjha 7y ago

> Stacked atop its slightly-older sibling (the 15-inch 2019 model), the new MacBook Pro has some noticeably larger exhaust holes. They look quite similar to the vents found in the Early 2015 Macbook Pro!

chmaynard 7y ago

A while back, I used to think hard about whether to purchase AppleCare to extend the warranty on a new MacBook Pro. Now, it's a no-brainer. Believe me, I know from hard experience that you won't regret it.

benologist 7y ago
The lack of repairability and fragility of recent models has driven up the repair price and the need for repairs so much it makes AppleCare vital now. Apple outright lied in Europe for years about warranty duration to upsell AppleCare and went to court multiple times before they stopped, these "replace most of the computer" repairs might be nothing more than a dark pattern sales optimization. During iFixit's live teardown of this device it turned out there was plenty of space for socketed ram and storage, as is consistent with devices much smaller. https://www.pcworld.com/article/253151/eu_law_forces_apple_two_year_warranty.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/253151/eu_law_forces_apple_t...
akvadrako 7y ago
Well I bought AppleCare because of the keyboard and I regret it. They refused to fix the nonworking keys because of a 1mm scratch on the back of the top case, saying it voided the warranty. So just a few hundred additional bucks wasted.
- WA 7y ago
  I had the keyboard of my MBP 2017 replaced for free. Also, the display died roughly at the same time. At first, I thought it was a problem of the flex cable, but later I discovered a small crack. The Apple Store replaced the entire display for free, what is usually a $800 repair. I guess it depends a lot on the store, the country, maybe even the person you talk to.
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rhardih 7y ago

Would have hoped a note on the screen cable for this one. Wasn't a breaking/failing ribbon cable the biggest problem after the keyboard for that last couple of years models?

JohnTHaller 7y ago
The stage light flaw. Happened because Apple made the cable between the mainboard and the display panel in too short. Excacerbated because Apple soldered the cable to the display panel turning a $6 repair into a $600 repair. Rossman's video from January details the stupidity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzjoELvrkYo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzjoELvrkYo
fit2rule 7y ago
There is also the 'orange spot' problem, a manufacturing defect which Apple have successfully suppressed but which appears to be a mounting class action against them akin to the "peelgate" situation .. no mention if the new 2019 models have this same issue .. Apparently what happens is the liquid crystal particles separate from the grid and float around the screen, creating orange splotches that are very, very annoying. If you tilt the screen, over an hour the splotches will move around .. I've gotten to the point where I don't take my MBP 2018 off the desk just so that I don't have to watch the progress of the splotches over the day .. Very annoying. I hope they've fixed it, and I hope Apple are forced to replace these screens.

zelienople 7y ago

In case you haven't noticed, the planet is burning. Don't buy a laptop with a repairability score of 1.

saagarjha 7y ago
Counterpoint: Apple's laptops have lasted me longer than any other computer I've had. I'm not sure that buying this is a net negative.
- patatino 7y ago
  Counterpoint 2: I sold my 4-year-old MacBook Pro for 40% of the original price. Good luck doing that with any other device.
  - lm28469 7y ago
    > the planet is burning > yeah, but what about money That's a good summary of the situation.
- hw 7y ago
  I have had my mid-2012 RMBP since 2012 and I haven't had to repair it yet (I might be an outlier). I'm hoping to trade in my 2012 and get the 16" and have it last another 7 years.
  - petepete 7y ago
    Mine's a 2013 model and I'm in the same boat. My X1 Carbon is being delivered today, the Mac put in a good shift but it's frozen a couple of times since the upgrade to a Catalina. Until the last month it's been perfect. I'll still use it for Affinity and Capture One, but as a contractor I need something I feel I can depend on.
    - rswail 7y ago
      Hang on, it's been perfect until you upgraded to Catalina? A release that is notoriously buggy? Why not downgrade back to Mojave?

ping_pong 7y ago

I just bought one and have been using it for a couple of days. So far so good. I still hate the TouchBar because it's completely useless, but the Esc key and directional keys was enough for me. I also have a 2018 MBP from work and the keyboard is shit. Within 3 weeks it was doubletyping and putting random .'s everywhere. I was days away from buying the top end Vaio and then I heard the news about the new MBP and decided to go for the MBP instead.

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ctur 7y ago
For those who can't upgrade yet, there is an open source utility, Unshaky (https://unshaky.nestederror.com/ https://unshaky.nestederror.com/), that can help with double presses. It's sad and gross that it is necessary but it works well on my aging MBP.
- nknealk 7y ago
  Seconding Unshaky. I use it on my work computer (2018 15" MBP). Does a very good job of detecting these double key presses and mitigating them transparently.
- ikornaselur 7y ago
  While this tool is really useful (installed it few days ago and it has dismissed 410 shaky presses!), this is covered by the Keyboard Service Program: https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-notebooks https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-n... You should be able to get the keyboard replaced for free, I just haven't found the time yet to go to an Apple store, but you shouldn't need to pay money and upgrade to fix this issue.
hbosch 7y ago
> putting random .'s everywhere. For anyone else having this problem, the new MBPs ship with the same autocorrect "feature" that comes on iOS where when you press spacebar twice (or, I should say, your keyboard thinks you pressed the spacebar twice) it inserts a period automatically. In addition, newer MBPs automatically capitalize and autocorrect spelling, like on mobile. You can disable this. I did, and, I don't think any desktop computer should be telling me how to type. I don't need help when I have a full keyboard. System Prefs > Keyboard > Text.

tolmasky 7y ago

I went with my gf to take a look at these last night at the Apple store. Her command key has completely stopped working on her 2018 MacBook that otherwise works perfectly fine. It feels clumsily large, especially since we’re coming from MacBook 13s. She kept asking me if I’d heard any rumors about when new 13s would come out. She went in pretty determined to get a new machine but decided to wait. The struggle continues for us 13ers I’m afraid. Not really excited to drop $3K+ on an even larger form factor I haven’t been excited about for upwards of 5 years (and being forced to upgrade to Catalina) just to fix what is now universally understood to be a defective keyboard design. I’m fairly convinced that this whole speaker business was to have something, anything, to differentiate it from the current models other than fixing the keyboard, and probably delayed this release. Someone said “we can’t seriously just ship a new laptop, with the same CPU as the current models, and just fix the keyboards!” It wouldn’t surprise me if the 13s haven’t come out yet for a similar reason.

friedman23 7y ago
I'm a power user and I'm really surprised you looked at this release as "just" fixing the keyboard. I'm more excited about this release than any other macbook release in the past 3 years. Increased base hd size, new graphics card with performance that stomps the previous model, more available RAM, the largest battery legally possible on a laptop, and a larger screen in the same form factor as the previous 15 inch model. There are actually no downsides to this laptop except the touch bar.
- dylan604 7y ago
  There are actually no downsides to this laptop except the touch bar <that have been realized at this time>. FTFY. No Gen 1 Apple product has been without it's flaws. Some just take time to make themselves known.
- tolmasky 7y ago
  The keyboard is the “only” thing that matters for someone that bought a computer about a year ago, so yeah. 64GB of RAM and 8TB of SSD are great, that’s why I have a desktop computer with those specs for half the price. I love big screens too, which is why I have an actual big monitor on my desktop, not “big considering the form factor it’s in”. Getting those specs on the MacBook Pro puts you into the $6K territory, so I don’t think for most people that’s actually a difference. The absolute upper bound has increased, but what I get for the price I just paid about a year ago isn’t that much different. Meanwhile, my laptop is for mobility and not where I boil the ocean. Sure, I’ve wanted 32GB on my 13 inch for years, still waiting though. Look, I get that there exists a market for super high end laptops, but there is arguably a much larger market for, like, mobile laptops that can type correctly. It’s annoying that I have to get pushed into the ultra niche high end laptop market, with specs that I specifically don’t even care that much about (I have no use for a better graphics card, especially an AMD graphics card that ensures I can’t use it for ML), just to get a keyboard that puts one e on the screen when I hit the e key once.

v3nn 7y ago

Looks like the mobo came from space invaders.

jonny383 7y ago

Seriously, fuck off, Apple. Gluing and rivets - does this actually accomplish any kind of real measurable cost-saving or just introduce bullshit vendor lock-in? Same deal for soldered RAM. Pro-tip for everyone wanting to LEAVE Tim Cook's sinking hardware ship: Buy a Dell XPS 15, install Linux and enjoy being able to: 1. Upgrade your own RAM 2. Install a second 2.5" SSD 3. Being able to easily remove components from the notebook 4. Replace your own battery 5. Switch your Wireless card And considering the train-wreck that was macOS Catalina, Linux actually looks stable in comparison.

Razengan 7y ago
> Buy a Dell XPS 15 No. Windows sucks ass and Linux isn't as good as macOS, even with all the later's bugs recently. And Mac trackpads are awesome.
- jonny383 7y ago
  Read comment. Install Linux. XPS has Linux hardware support. 0/10.
rimliu 7y ago
I just want to use my computer, not playing computer tech with it.
- jonny383 7y ago
  Until your keyboard breaks and you're not just using your computer - you're playing Apple with the "genius" at the genius bar.
IAmEveryone 7y ago
If you're "switching wireless cards" you're using computers as a toy. Wireless just works, these days. And if it doesn't, whatever Apple decided to put in MacBook is unlikely to be the culprit. If you consider recompiling kernels and and overclocking your caps lock LEDs to be fun that's fine, but don't delude yourself into thinking it has anything to do with productive work or professionalism.

jonny383 7y ago

Nice edit without the edit note. 0/10.

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turk73 7y ago

Apple, what the hell is so hard to understand about the need to makes these fucking things more repairable? They cost thousands of dollars for for fuck's sake! I have a work issued one that if anything goes wrong with I will get a new work-issued one. If I had to do this on my own I would be SOL if the thing breaks and I don't have your expensive AppleCare plan which is just a screw job on the little guy. If that's not reasonable, it's time to think about landfills and computer scrap piles and do the right thing here. The 1/10 repair score tells the whole story--it's not repairable, on purpose, you corporate shitbirds. The fucking dongles were another ass raping of the consumer, let's get that straightened back out. At my company we have meetings where we show up and then someone has to run and get a dongle to use the projector. We never had to worry about this crap in the past, we would got to meetings and be PRODUCTIVE. I velcroed a dongle to my screen but everyone borrows it and then I forget it half the time because it's in a conference room somewhere. I suggested my company buy buckets of the stupid things so they would be everywhere, but they cost like $50 apiece. More landfill mess eventually, too.

pckls 7y ago

I'm very patiently waiting for modular components. Apple's hardware is certainly beautiful but IMO not worth the upfront premium PLUS the additional premium for repairs. From a hardware eng perspective, is there a clear advantage for hardwiring components?

saagarjha 7y ago
> From a hardware eng perspective, is there a clear advantage for hardwiring components? Yeah: it saves space and reduces complexity. A more modular MacBook would almost certainly be missing features or be bigger/thicker.

leoh 7y ago

I bought a MBP 15" around the time of the fall keynote because the 16" was not announced. Does anyone know how I can replace it with a 16"? The keyboard really is driving me nuts.

ksec 7y ago

For those who are not in a hurry to upgrade, ( If you are on 2015 MBP ), the next upgrade which should be soon, will get you WiFi 6 and Icelake, with 20%+ IPC and hopefully Apple will throw in 10 Core Config in as well. I kind of felt Apple rushed as the problem with Keyboard were big enough and Apple had to release something to calm the market, not to mention Intel 10nm Icelake is late as usual. And of all the thing Apple backtrack, I really wish they bring back AirPort Extreme.

jerrre 7y ago
do you have a source?
- danpalmer 7y ago
  These will likely be features of the Intel product lineup, which is a lot more public than Apples roadmap but which is very intertwined for anything processor related, which likely includes WiFi.
ralfd 7y ago
AFAIK the current available Icelake CPUs are low power (9-15 Watt) and have only 4 cores. For the MacBook Pro Intel has to release something beefier.
- ksec 7y ago
  Yes and that is assuming their 10nm do yield... and so far there is no sign of that happening.
tonyedgecombe 7y ago
For those who are not in a hurry to upgrade There is always something new just around the corner.
- ksec 7y ago
  >There is always something new just around the corner. True, but something new isn't always something better, and isn't always worth waiting for. Aka 2016 - 2019 MBP 15". And in the above cases, I consider Icelake IPC and Security improvement along with WiFI 6 to be quite a significant upgrade, not the same could be said for the past 3 update of MacBook Pro.

guardian5x 7y ago

The Surface Laptop 3 scored a 5 at least, which was a big improvement over previous generations. I wish Apple would try to improve repairability as well.

Sangeppato 7y ago
While this is true, the battery (which is likely the only component most people will need/want to replace) is still glued to the case, the RAM is soldered and I'm not sure Microsoft will provide a replacement keyboard to you for a decent price. I mean, I was very happy about the Laptop 3 repairability, but if the MBP is 1/10, then 5/10 looks a bit too much to me.

mscasts 7y ago

I love how Apple claim to care so much about the environment and then goes on to create basically the most unfixable pieces of hardware possible. Great job, really awesome for the environment Apple.

nautical 7y ago
+ they will be charging absurd amount for small fixes that were possible to do on own. example RAM is soldered to the logic board!
- asaddhamani 7y ago
  Forget about the RAM. The SSD is also soldered to the logic board. That's ridiculous.
  - kmlx 7y ago
    isn't this for performance purposes?
    - _ph_ 7y ago
      There are perfectly fast m.2 modules, that would mean only minor differences in peformance, if any at all. My iMac actually runs perfectly fine on a SATA SSD, though this is definitely slower than the soldered-on SSD of my MB Pro.
    - jaytaylor 7y ago
      Soldering it down doesn't provide any quantifiable performance improvements. It probably allows them to make it smaller / thinner, and less expensive to manufacture. However, now if any one component (memory, CPU, SSD drive) goes bad the entire set must be tossed! When this happens, it will be expensive for the unlucky customer. All so Apple could avoid including a bit more plastic for the component sockets. Also, SSD drives have a limited number of write cyclew before they stop working, usually some 10's of TBW (terabytes written). For normal users, it will take them a very long time to wear out the drive. Conversely, developers and power user types may find their setups doing 50GB or more of writes per day. So for example, if a drive is rated for 75TBW, a power user could wear it out after only a couple of years. I have some Samsung SSDs at home where I regularly track and monitor the write usage, and I'm always surprised at how many writes occur on my [often idle] Windows machine. Background OS and application activity is my hypothesis for the cause. The primary windows partition drive will probably need replacing within a year, and will have lasted three or four years.

Spacemolte 7y ago

I like my 13 inch retina 2013 model, and i guess i will be holding on to that as long as possible.

w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago

Basically a throw-away computer.

meerita 7y ago

I dropped a beer in my 2017 model, and i screwed up all the spacebar, and the command and option keys in one side. They were really hard to use until some days ago they started working. The prior models were better for maintenance and resistant to these abuses with liquids.

BuildTheRobots 7y ago

This is probably a stupid question, but why have they got two different flavours of RAM? * 16x Micron MT40A1G8SA-075 8 Gb DDR4 SDRAM (16 GB total) * 4x Samsung K4Z80325BC-HC14 8 Gb GDDR6 RAM (4 GB total)

jmull 7y ago
I think the GDDR6 is for the GPU
- tecleandor 7y ago
  Yep. GDDR stands for Graphics DDR.

arminiusreturns 7y ago

Does anybody know the current state of installing linux on one? Doe the latest kernel fixes to SPI make things like the keyboard work now?

redm 7y ago

I switched from a pair of Mac Pro's to a 15" Macbook Pro last year. The 15" was the first laptop to support quad 4k displays (what I was using with my Mac Pro). The laptop has been fantastic, with the exception of cooling. The cooling is bad enough that I keep it (when it's hooked up to my quad 4k displays) upside down, with 2 plastic cups, to keep it from overheating. I'm mostly interested in the enhanced cooling. If it's really that much better, it may be time to upgrade. Has anyone had similar experiences?

azimuth11 7y ago
Yes. Everyone in my office complains about it.