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Intel's CIP wants to collect the “categories of websites you visit”
- medbrane 7y agoThey have this question in the page: > If I participate in the program, is there any personal information in the data collected? ..then they proceed to tell you what they don't collect. You can read between the lines that yes, they do collect PII.
- saagarjha 7y agoIf I’m understanding this right, Intel looks at your web browsing to optimize their drivers? Why would you ever willfully share this information with Intel?
- giancarlostoro 7y agoThey could remove the "website categories" bit and it wouldn't sound as sketchy to be honest. At least it's voluntary.
- AmazingTurtle 7y agodidn't you know there's a new X-Website-Category header in http/3? </jk>
- TeMPOraL 7y agoIt's not truly voluntary unless it's opt-in.
- pstch 7y agoAs I understand it, the CIP is opt-in, so it is truly voluntary. EDIT: Well, it's supposed to be opt-in, but apparently Intel has been sneaking it on user computers without their approval, which suggests that the checkbox used to install it from the driver assistant might be checked by default... so not opt-in.
- retSava 7y agoWell, they state it in the link: > Intel uses information about your computer's performance to make product improvements that may benefit you in the future. I'm sure you'll feel better knowing this. /s
- rubenbe 7y agoProbably they want to group their buyers using that browsing information. E.g HN readers tend to have i7 CPUs etc. While they state only "The categories of websites you visit, but not the URL itself" is transferred. I'm wondering how you do this? The most privacy friendly method would be to have an offline mapping with e.g. the 10000 most visited sites and their categories.
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- ckastner 7y agoI get that data collection has become a contentious issue and I'm a vocal opponent of this trend, but this seems rather harmless, no? It's an offer to purely voluntarily provide telemetry on non-personal data, no strings attached.
- sancha_ 7y agoWhy does Intel need this information at all?
- simongr3dal 7y agoSurely Intel’s engineers can browse the web themselves to find out what kinds of websites and JavaScript exists and use that knowledge to optimize their microcode or whatever. Or buy a report from one of the hundreds of companies doing this kind of user tracking. There’s no great reason why they would need to begin collecting data on each of their users.
- ckastner 7y ago> Surely Intel’s engineers can browse the web themselves to find out what kinds of websites and JavaScript exists They wouldn't have access to the frequency of visits, an important factor. > There’s no great reason why they would need to begin collecting data on each of their users. I've given you one above. Also, it's not "each of their users", it's those voluntarily agreeing to submit this information (as opposed to "you need to install X to unlock feature Y", and installing an executable.
- chillingeffect 7y agoIf everything were to go according to plan, it would be harmless, yes. The problem is that data becomes a liability. The same way having a few sparklers in your closet safe enough, having a few websites of your users is safe. But when you have a huge cache of personal data from large numbers of users, it becomes attractive to foreign governments, foreign gangs, feature creep from questionable law enforcement practices under a corporate surveillance state, unethical domestic lawyers, script kiddies, and so on. It's like having a whole fireworks store in your closet... It just keeps getting harder and harder to store safely the more information you collect! And you're not totally wrong- at least they're doing the right thing and making this opt-in. However, this collection appears to be one done by a bunch of GPU nerds, which raises warnings that it won't be protected as well as, say, google doc data.
- neiman 7y agoafaik it is a request for opt-in collecting metrics, while still trying to respect your privacy (as much as possible in this use-case). I won't do that, but if someone agrees I don't see any ethical issue with it. Is there anything I'm missing?
- chroem- 7y agoI'm sorry, but "opt-in" has almost always been a load of BS in my experience. Most examples I have seen look like: "Do you accept these terms? A.) Yes, and continue using our product B.) No, and revoke your access to our product."
- neiman 7y agoDoesn't seem like the case here, you need to participate in the "Intel Computing Improvement Program".
- ninkendo 7y agoAnd how long until the installer for some "partner" software enrolls me in this program without my knowledge? (Or only explained deep in some EULA nobody will read...)
- ngneer 7y agoIntel software development teams have to comply with internal legal process, meant to safeguard against that.
- jmull 7y agoWell, you're saying metrics and they're saying web browsing data. You're probably thinking metrics because that's how the program is presented: as a way to help ensure Intel products and drivers are performing well. But what does browsing data have to do with that? E.g. I notice the privacy policy covering this data specifically allows them to use the data they collect for advertising and allows them to let their partners use it for advertising as well. Is that what you were expecting from the Intel CIP?
- rswail 7y agoWhy on earth would the "category of web sites" be of possible use other than selling the data? Telemetry is now an attack vector for privacy in general because no one can be trusted with the data.
- SamuelAdams 7y agoNot trying to defend intel, just trying to offer a (somewhat justified) answer: If people are using more streaming services, that means Intel should focus more on their Integrated Graphics platforms. If people are downloading significantly more data than ever before, they should probably make sure their networking drivers receive more support. Knowing how people use their PC's, even by category, can help Intel manage its driver development.
- sizzzzlerz 7y agoAnd I should include my private data in this collection because why? I'm not getting paid for it.
- gnode 7y agoYou should turn it off; others won't, and their sacrifice will help Intel design products for real world usage.
- used74919 7y agoYes but they might be people you love and care about
- sizzzzlerz 7y agoIt's funny because you really believe that.
- mixedbit 7y agoRight, because if you are using your computer mostly to download stuff, you are OK if your GPU occasionally hangs.
- F147H34D 7y ago> Data collected from your system is temporarily stored locally on your system before being uploaded to a secure cloud environment, which may be physically located in accordance with Intel’s Privacy Notice. > Intel keeps the data for a maximum of seven years. Intel takes reasonable steps to reduce the risk that any data kept for over three years can be traced to a particular computer. Tied to user for 3 years. From a law enforcement perspective I’m more interested in the ‘other devices in your computing environment’. They state they are generating a random UID tied to your system, so I assume if I know the UID from the suspect computer then a warrant could be issued to Intel for this information.
- kabdib 7y agoIf it's kept over three years, you have to believe that there are backups of the data made, and that the backups are retained forever. So ANY persistent mapping from the data to a specific computer is effectively permanent the moment it hits their backend (maybe someone has to load a tape, so it's not instantaneous, but still available to a warrant or subpoena or shenanigans). If there is any "risk that any data ... can be traced to a particular computer" on day 1 that the stuff is stored, then that risk never goes away.
- medbrane 7y agoThey also keep it after you eventually opt out.
- chooseaname 7y agoMake JavaScript run as fast as possible on your chips. There, now you don't need to collect any data.
- olliej 7y agoYes, but presumably they want to know what type of JS is being run. The characteristics (memory access, numeric operations, etc) are complex and simply saying “make all of it fast” isn’t helpful - presumably intel is trying to make their chips faster at everything in general, but if they find that there are a few particular bottlenecks maybe they could allocate more resources/surface area to those particular instructions, etc
- danmg 7y agoARM added a few opcodes for JS. Seems like this is a solved problem.
- olliej 7y agoThe particular opcode was a very low cost one - most of the win came from memory savings (it’s basically float->int conversion with overridden round mode)
- codedokode 7y agoMaybe then they can buy a PC and seat an employee that will spend all the day browsing the web. Instead of spying on everyone.
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- raxxorrax 7y agoI don't know if I am getting this right, but this seems to be a program that you can install and they at least ask. So I have not as much a problem with it. I wouldn't want them to be able to read my CPU SN though and connect it to any browsing data. But there sure are people that wouldn't mind. If I compare this behavior to MS and their telemetry crap, this is a gigantic improvement. Not saying that collecting usage information should even be further normalized.
- makomk 7y agoFrom doing a quick Google, it looks like Intel have been sneaking this software onto people's computers bundled with stuff like drivers, and some people have been having serious trouble actually uninstalling it: https://www.tenforums.com/customization/113108-inquiry-about-removing-hard-find-intel-control-panel-entry.html https://www.tenforums.com/customization/113108-inquiry-about...
- BWGB 7y agoThere's no incentive to give away your data. A large financial incentive would be nice!
- olliej 7y agoBut according to the press release you will be empowered by giving them access to this information :D
- jraph 7y agoCompletely off-topic, but I discovered the existence of the <details> HTML tag [1] with this page. I was surprised that I could unfold these questions at all with Javascript disabled. Usually, I am stuck with this kind of pages. Please webmasters, use <details> for your FAQs if you want foldable questions. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/details https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/de...
- tomcooks 7y agoUnsupported by the usual suspects, that's why.
- jraph 7y agoThey are disappearing and it gracefully degrades, I think we should not care in most cases now :-) edit: and I guess a JS shim can be used if it really matters.
- Someone1234 7y agoEdge never really gained popularity so that disappearing (with Chrome-Edge) is neither here nor there. IE11 is here to stay until at least 2025. In no small part due to Microsoft's decision to make IE11's rendering engine the only browser that could support: Java Applets, Flash, ActiveX, that almost all major companies and large governments use. If they had incorporated those into Edge and hidden them behind ten layers of security warnings, we wouldn't be in this mess. Try to service large corporations and governments. Our IE11 user share is over 70% for the product (but under 30% for the marketing/public pages). This won't change until every last Java Applet/Flash/ActiveX control dies, and that isn't happening fast -- companies literally in 2019 still sell products using the tech' (Oracle!).
- jraph 7y ago> Try to service large corporations and governments. Our IE11 user share is over 70% for the product I was excluding this from the "most cases", but thanks for the wake up call anyway. Outch.
- danmg 7y agoIf they care so much about javascript performance why wouldn't they just add opcodes for js specific behavior like how ARM did?
- 9dl 7y agoThey can't do that wo your data man Don't you understand?
- tomcooks 7y agoDon't they already have access to all my infos already, thanks to the Intel Management Engine? /S
- 9dl 7y agoWhy not collect even more If it is free
- bobwaycott 7y agoLet’s assume Intel has the best motivations here, and really wants to ensure that Intel devices perform better than competitors. There’s a far better way to accomplish this without invading the privacy of end users and becoming yet another attack vector (has anyone coined YAAV yet?): - Create a program that allows developers and other companies to upload their code to be stored and executed by Intel to test and store performance improvements and regressions - For those who don’t trust Intel with their code, allow them to register their site as part of a testing program. Intel can then rank the importance of these sites internally by popularity or whatever kind of metrics they want. If developers and companies care, they’ll participate and work with Intel directly. If they don’t, they won’t. Stop pushing this crap onto users’ machines, building profiles, storing data, and invading everyone’s privacy. We really need an anti-telemetry law in the US.
- Porthos9K 7y agoIntel's CIP is a wannabe NSA spook. The websites I visit should be nobody's business but my own.
- ForHackernews 7y agoThis seems to be genuinely opt-in: You have to explicitly sign up for this program, download and run their software. It's not like they're spying on unsuspecting chip-buyers. I wish other companies had a real opt-in process.
- davidhyde 7y agoAt some point we're going to have to start using our personal firewalls for outgoing traffic too which is going to be a massive pain. It seems that every company is jumping on the telemetry band wagon.
- mopsi 7y ago> which is going to be a massive pain Not at all! https://tinywall.pados.hu/features.php https://tinywall.pados.hu/features.php (it's free)
- rasz 7y agoor https://www.binisoft.org/wfc.php https://www.binisoft.org/wfc.php also free, been using it since 2016
- rasz 7y agoWhat do you mean by 'at some point? that point was when W10 started sending telemetry, and yes, you can block it with windows own buildin firewall.
- jmoore53 7y agoFor the time being this appears to be an Opt-in program where one has to choose to participate by downloading and running the CIP program.
- hsivonen 7y agoHow do they extract the site category data from browsers? What side effects on browser behavior, if any, does the methodology have?
- ARandomerDude 7y agoIt's an opt-in program. I'd be upset if it were mandatory or opt-out. But opt-in doesn't bother me. > How do I participate in the Intel® Computing Improvement Program? >When you download and install the Intel® Computing Improvement Program, click Accept on the invitation to join. > What if I don't choose to participate? > System performance information is not collected or sent to Intel. As a result, performance information from your computer cannot be used to improve future products. Usual disclaimers: I don't work for Intel, never have, no plans to, no direct financial interest in them, etc.
- ComodoHacker 7y agoData is the new oil, they say. Did someone convinced Intel to prepare for pivot as a data company? Well, they are in a good position for it actually.
- zamubafoo 7y agoWouldn't it be better for them just to categorize the javascript that is available in the top million webpages?
- teddyh 7y agoThey might just want to live up to their name.
- tyingq 7y agoIs this tied to installing other Intel software or drivers? The page reads like you specifically decide to download this solely for the purpose of helping Intel. Not sure they will get many takers that way.
- z3t4 7y agoThis seem to be optin and not on by default like other popular software.
- tcd 7y agoNo surprise more and more entities want that delicious browsing history data, it's extremely valuable and profitable. These days you need to really understand your threat model when it comes to using the internet and who might be able to record every keystroke and website you visit. We used to call them "keyloggers" but now GBoard and Windows 10 have "clipboard sync" features. I think there's going to be some genuine business in having scripts make random web searches, copy/paste random things with the cloud sync feature enabled etc to trick algorithms and what data can be harvested from what they collect. If you poison the data they have on you then what use is it collecting it? Maybe I just am a raging furry, and adore Adolf Hitler and buy Nazi related materials.
- annoyingnoob 7y agoI tend to agree with you. Though when Intel starts selling your data to the government you might want to limit those Nazi searches, could impact your ability to cross the border without a hassle.
- a3n 7y agoDoes Honda need to know the categories of addresses I drive to? Does Pentel need to know the categories of ransom notes that I write?
- justwalt 7y agoWhat types of ransom notes are you writing? Please come with me, sir.
- a3n 7y agoPurely intellectual exercises, I assure you. Performance art.
- rasz 7y agoFunny you say that, because that ship has sailed https://threatpost.com/ford-eyes-use-of-customers-personal-data-to-boost-profits/139209/ https://threatpost.com/ford-eyes-use-of-customers-personal-d... Ford CEO Jim Hackett: “We already know and have data on our customers. By the way, we protect this securely; they trust us. We know what people make. How do we know that? It’s because they borrow money from us. And when you ask somebody what they make, we know where they work, you know. We know if they’re married. We know how long they’ve lived in their house because these are all on the credit applications. We’ve never ever been challenged on how we use that. And that’s the leverage we got here with the data.” TLDR: "They trust me, Dumb fucks"
- fnord77 7y agohow long until on-chip user tracking?
- rubyn00bie 7y agoJust my two cents... I think they're using this data to help guide how they should compete with AMD and ARM. They also say they're saving the RAM used and software applications you use... To me that's about figuring out what's more important to end users; incredibly powerful (multi-core) machines or incredibly efficient (fastest single threaded speed per watt) ones. Right now Intel is getting hammered on both fronts with ARM chips dangerously fast for single threaded applications (A13) and AMD totally slaughtering their desktop/server market... They have no modem business, and if I was Intel, I'd be pretty fucking scared right now. The weight of the rest of the industry might be large enough now to truly make 'em irrelevant. As a result, they need to be very, very careful about where they invest resources as the future could be very dim for them... P.S. I do think: sure they could sell it, but is that data really going to make up for the dip in their actual business? Nah.
- umvi 7y agoHow can a company like Intel that was top dog for (at least) 10 years in a row get slaughtered on two fronts? Seems like they should have billions in the bank to burn on whatever they need to get back on top. To me this is like people projecting doom and gloom for Apple after Microsoft makes better products for 2 years, but maybe I'm missing something.
- rubyn00bie 7y agoThe landscape that Intel dominated has changed completely and they have not. They're like Microsoft without Azure, without Office, without Xbox... they have one meaningful product: CPUs and their GPU is a six-months to a year out for a v1 which will probably not be very great. If either Microsoft or Apple had continued to only have one meaningful product they'd both be shells of who they are now.
- rosybox 7y agoWould it be fair to say that Google still only has a single product (with meaningful revenue)?
- zelphirkalt 7y agoAfter the rather recent let downs (Still waiting for my free of charge replacement CPU for the ones vulnerable to meltdown and spectre.), just one more reason not to buy Intel crap.
- fulldecent2 7y agoI support Intel's program here. But clearly they should reword it to be more explicit. s/categories of websites you visit/ - Each month, whether you have or have not visited some streaming video website on this list (click to see list) (i.e. a single "yes" or "no" for the whole list) - Each month, whether you have or have not visited some shopping website from on this list (click to see list) - ... /