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I've had several friends in the adult industry have their checking accounts closed at a several major banks as well. Traditional banking should definitely not

I've had several friends in the adult industry have their checking accounts closed at a several major banks as well. Traditional banking should definitely not be discriminating against fully legal activities.

geomark 7y ago
This is the thing I find very disturbing. That an industry as highly regulated and essential to every day life as banking can pick and choose based on management's moral choices.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- short_sells_poo 7y ago
  It's not a moral choice. It's a case of the business is not worth the hassle. KYC rules mean the bank is on the hook if they are found to harbor ill gotten gains and the sex industry had a some troubles in the past, while not producing enough volume on an individual level to make it worthwhile for a bank to overlook things.
  - derangedHorse 7y ago
    That just seems like profiling at that point, since they’re basically rejecting service to an individual just because of their profession. Sure they might say that there may be a higher probability of a someone in the adult industry being involved in illegal activities, but is it fair to outright deny service on such a wide scale?
    - wincy 7y ago
      Profiling isn't illegal unless it's profiling against a protected class, right? It's like how I can't get cheap life insurance because I took antidepressants like seven years ago during a rough patch in my life.
      - em-bee 7y ago
        profiling is illegal when the service is necessary to live. in germany for example, it is illegal to deny someone access to things like a phone line, electricity or water. (that is, even if you don't pay your bills, they are not allowed to turn of your service. instead, if they want the money, they have to sue you) i believe at this point, access to a bank account is also included in this. as things progress, more things will be added to the list. soon (if not already) internet access will be included.
        kortilla 7y ago
        That’s not related to profiling.
        bryanrasmussen 7y ago
        so I think what you mean is that profiling is immoral if the service is necessary to live, and in Germany (and other progressive parts of the EU) it is also illegal. I'm pretty sure these banks doing the profiling were in the U.S
        noobermin 7y ago
        The cop out for "protected classes" is one of the serious failures of the New Left in the US and past generation progressive attempts to wrangle with social issues. It's one of the reasons you have things like clamoring for representation in small dwindling influential places (the meme is "more trans women drone pilots") whilst ignoring systemic issues like how Flint, Michigan still doesn't have drinking water. I've made this argument before and made Americans (obviously) mad, but this cop out of protected classes allows you to actually discriminate against said classes, you just have to prove there is no malice in your heart, more or less. That is, you did not because they are black or not men, but because of the sanctioned reasons, then it's okay.
        raxxorrax 7y ago
        Definitely a gigantic failure. Why not offer protection for everyone and treat them the same? Praise your literacy all you want, doesn't matter if the performance and strategies of political representatives are abysmal. And the concept of treating people equally seems to be beyond comprehension.
    - novalis78 7y ago
      The bank secrecy act forces you to profile. That’s why Caitlin Long repeatedly pointed out [1] how it is most likely an unconstitutional law and needs to get challenged in court. But it creates a moat around banking and therefore has not been seriously challenged. [1] https://youtu.be/LQX0trzomxg https://youtu.be/LQX0trzomxg
  - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
    Not just in the past. There's a current case going on about a major channel that Pornhub used to feature about performers being allegedly both lied to about where the footage would be available and raped. Very possibly what spurred PayPal to make this change.
    - tux1968 7y ago
      That sounds like something that should be handled by law enforcement, not your bank.
      - belltaco 7y ago
        Sesta/Fosta potentially make Pornhub/Paypal liable.
        jkaplowitz 7y ago
        Pornhub is Canadian, not American (their HQ is Montreal). Of course PayPal is American and Pornhub has plenty of dealings with the US, so your point stands.
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > Pornhub is Canadian, not American (their HQ is Montreal). That doesn't necessarily make them, or their principals, immune to US civil or criminal sanctions.
        jkaplowitz 7y ago
        I know, I said as much in my last sentence. I just meant it was less impactful on them than it is on PayPal. There is still some impact of course.
      - james_s_tayler 7y ago
        Banks form an important part of it as KYC is designed to cut down on Money Laundering. Globally KYC/AML rules have gotten much stricter in recent years. If criminals can't access their money it ought to curb some of the incentives.
  - jrcii 7y ago
    Unless you’re a drug cartel at HSBC, then it’s ok
  - hedvig 7y ago
    >found to harbor ill gotten gains Ah yeah like they were on the hook for laundering Mexican drug cartel money?
    - ohyes 7y ago
      Or the human trafficking?
    - lmm 7y ago
      Umm yes they were, even if they'd done everything right. Look at the HSBC case and tell me the bank did anything nefarious or even negligent. Nope, governments hit them both ways.
      - seanhunter 7y ago
        HSBC admitted negligence. The cartels liked working with HSBC so much they even had secure money boxes made that were specifically designed to fit through the hole in HSBC branch teller windows. There are tons of references online, but these are some: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-12-12/hsbc-mexican-branches-said-to-be-traffickers-favorites https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-12-12/hsbc-mexi... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/17/hsbc-executive-resigns-senate https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/17/hsbc-execut... https://www.foxnews.com/world/hsbc-knowingly-helped-mexican-cartels-launder-billions-lawsuit-claims https://www.foxnews.com/world/hsbc-knowingly-helped-mexican-...
        lmm 7y ago
        First link is paywalled. Second link: they kowtowed to Congress because it would be worse if they hadn't. Look at what they actually did: they complied with the law and advised their clients on how to comply with the law. That's their job. Third link appears to be all about allegations in a lawsuit rather than anything that was proven.
    - short_sells_poo 7y ago
      If you actually read my post, I do imply that when it is worth it, the banks will overlook things, but an individual sex worker's business is not worth the risk (probably, I'm not a banker). They'll help you launder $100 million, but not $10000.
  - LanceH 7y ago
    Wouldn't it be better to have them in the regular financial systems subject to the "know your customer" laws, so the money and customer can be more easily tracked? If it's about all sorts of illegal activities, shouldn't law enforcement use these things as a resource, rather than driving it underground?
    - NullPrefix 7y ago
      It is not law enforcement that is driving them underground. That is private corporations, who decide to rather not know those customers.
      - um_ya 7y ago
        It's been happening on social media sites too, so it's not just isolated to banking. It seems to be a political trend to censor non-politically correct things.
  - StreamBright 7y ago
    Are you implying that you need to punish an entire industry because of the wrongdoings of some companies? I guess we should close all the bankers accounts because of Lehman Brothers. Politicians also.
  - geomark 7y ago
    I suppose that is it, that if the volume isn't there then even the smallest risk is too much for the bank to bother with. So they just terminate. In a previous life I administered websites for a number of different businesses. One was a dating site that opened a small business account at a bank and then a couple weeks later the bank abruptly terminated their account, stating that they were not equipped to service "entertainment" business accounts. I guess their real reason was they considered there to be some risk that there would be soliciting going on and it wasn't worth the bother for the bank. The bank was very brash about it, stating that they can close an account at anytime for any reason.
- arminiusreturns 7y ago
  UBS and other bankers catering to major drug cartel money though... crickets and maybe a small percentage fine.
  - godzillabrennus 7y ago
    No crickets, they fully embraced it for survival. https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-banks-saved-un-cfief-claims https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-ba...
  - stuaxo 7y ago
    HSBC in Mexico.
  - Spooky23 7y ago
    UBS and HSBC aren’t US banks.
- x0x0 7y ago
  I doubt it's moral choices and more fraud and dispute levels, ie the cost to service a customer.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - jeltz 7y ago
    I am not convinced it is just that. PayPal also refuses to do business with online gambling which is an industry with low fraud levels (in the early poker days they were high, but that was a long time ago). Thankfully there are a bunch pf credit card processors who know how good customers online casinos are and most banks are fine too, so that industry is not deplatformed.
    - jeffasinger 7y ago
      Most of the online gambling operators in New Jersey take PayPal, though you usually have to use either a bank account linked with ACH or a balance you already have in PayPal.
      - jeltz 7y ago
        European gambling operators don't. It is pretty much impossible for a European operator to get PayPal (there have been a couple of exceptions).
        ascorbic 7y ago
        The big UK gambling sites all accept PayPal.
        bostik 7y ago
        And I can guarantee they all had to go through a long, painful process with reams of paperwork to get there.
onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
Can anyone explain how this even happens? Who could possibly threaten a bank over handling financial transactions for sex workers? And what could they possibly threaten the bank with? Even if it's some big business like Chick-fil-A... Presumably they only bank with one bank, and presumably the porn and sex work industry has more money at that bank than Chick-fil-A. How's this actually work? It's not making sense to me.
- trhway 7y ago
  >Who could possibly threaten a bank over handling financial transactions for sex workers? And what could they possibly threaten the bank with? The SESTA/FOSTA for banking seems to be coming: https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-sex-workers-are-wary-of-elizabeth-warren https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-sex-workers-are-wary-of-el... "Warren’s joint effort with Florida Senator Marco Rubio in 2017 to introduce legislation that would enable banks to discriminate against sex worker, known as the “End Banking for Human Traffickers Act.” (Despite bipartisan support Warren and Rubio’s initiative was never voted on by the Senate, but the same bill has been reintroduced this year as H.R.295 - End Banking for Human Traffickers Act of 2019 and just passed the House Foreign Affairs Committee in March.) "
- sandworm101 7y ago
  Amateur porn? User-uploaded X-rated videos? When things go wrong they go wrong fast. Professional studios know how to abide by all the various regulations, many of which change from one state (or even city) to another. Amateurs with webcams in their bedrooms do not. Just look at the "Girls do porn" fiasco to see why someone might not want to do business with an amateur-focused studio.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    That's not a ... relevantly fruitful ... search term. Have any relevant links?
    - belltaco 7y ago
      https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvgxvw/girls-do-porn-employees-charged-with-sex-trafficking-potentially-face-life-in-prison https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvgxvw/girls-do-porn-empl...
Iv 7y ago
More broadly, financial institutions should be accountable. Because, indeed, discrimination is illegal, but suing a bank for it is long and very difficult if your account is frozen.
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
Talk to gun retailers that were shut down by Chase and Bank of America. Legal has nothing to do with it. There is an increasing degree of business that entirely revolves around feelings of people who yell the loudest.
- beatgammit 7y ago
  This tells me we need more anonymity. A bank doesn't need to know any more about you than wherever is necessary to complete a transaction and report tax details to you and the government, and honestly that can be done with only a tax identification number (which should be separate from a Social Security Number). The same goes for payment processors, though payment processors may additionally need a company/individual nickname (for convenience in printing on receipts) and a bank account to deliver funds. I see absolutely no reason for an organization like PayPal or Chase to know who its clientele are, just whether they're legal from a tax perspective, unless the customer provides that voluntarily. And I could even see legislation preventing the collection of such data since it could be used to restrict access to essential services like banking. I think this gets us most of the benefits of cryptocurrency from a privacy point of view, but still maintains the ability of a government to track down fraud by cross referencing tax data with transactions. The only time someone need be connected to their bank account or payment processor account is if they're suspected of a crime, which would require a warrant. It shouldn't be possible, IMO, for payment processors to just refuse service based on dislike for the line of work the business owner is in. There are no restrictions on how currency may be used, so digital payments should be treated the same way.
  - oneplane 7y ago
    But then how would you know if you are processing stolen money?
    - netmonk 7y ago
      how do you know that the cashback the shop clerk is handing your right now for your diet coke purchase wasnt used three days ago for buying Heroin in the street ? We dont know and we dont care !
RileyJames 7y ago
This debate is currently brewing in Australia, except its against providing services to mining companies. When is right / wrong to boycott? And who should be allowed to? (Persons or companies) Context: in Australia the prime minister (Scott Morrison) is looking into laws to ban boycotts by companies (who are being compelled by people / public opinion)
- baroffoos 7y ago
  Thats a really good counter point and I can't think of any way the situations are different other than my morals saying working for pornhub is ok but trashing the planet is not. Of course thats totally subjective and someone could be of the opinion that working for pornhub is not ok.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    Mining != trashing the planet. Also, given that there is literally no alternative to mining, how do your morals allow you to support mining companies by using their products?
    - baroffoos 7y ago
      The coal mines in Australia are totally unnecessary. Australia is one of the best countries in the world for the ability to be powered on renewable energy. Which is now cheaper than coal. Literally the only purpose for coal in Australia is political reasons now. Yes I know coal is used for the production of other materials but there is more than enough coal currently being mined for steel. We just need to stop senselessly burning it when there is limitless energy raining down on empty desert.
      - brigandish 7y ago
        From what I know (and I don't claim to be an expert), solar panels require mining and also cause a lot of waste (what happens to a panel after its 20 year life cycle?). I've not heard whether solar farms would work in Australia - wouldn't the amount of distance be a problem? - nor whether they'd actually be any more efficient than nuclear. Certainly, I recently watched Michael Schellenberger's talk (it's in article form here[1]) and I was surprised at how destructive renewables seem when more detail is given about their implementation. [1] https://quillette.com/2019/02/27/why-renewables-cant-save-the-planet/ https://quillette.com/2019/02/27/why-renewables-cant-save-th...
lostlogin 7y ago
Considering the things that banks have financed in the past, the hypocrisy of this stance by banks is incredible. Everything up to and including genocide has been ok by them.
IAmGraydon 7y ago
Checking accounts or merchant accounts? Most banks shy away from processing credit cards for adult sites because the chargeback rate is sky high and it therefore presents elevated risk. It has nothing to do with discrimination.
- tluyben2 7y ago
  Or just fix that system; here (EU) it is not all that easy to chargeback (and impossible in many cases) because payments are secured; if you yell fraud, they will start an investigation (mostly automated); if the IP you paid from was around your house, you filled in correct info, you did 3dsecure (which is used on all my cards now; I had a few that did not have it and they got frauded, but a simple check showed it could not have been me and they reversed them all; they now have 3dsecure too for that reason) which means you knew specific secret information, maybe have a token device and/or the phone of the card owner, they will decline the chargeback request. If you are in your country most of the time and suddenly there is a 1000E charge from a merchant in Dubai, they will block it and call you. The ease with which you can do chargebacks in the US is harmful in a lot of cases imho. I have been a merchant (of digital goods; gaming, not gambling or adult) and got annoyed enough of US chargebacks (including from Paypal) that we started doing annoying KYC and added very long waiting periods before product delivery for US customers. We had certain payment methods (bank, and there were some payment methods that do not allow chargeback) that had immediate delivery. That fixed it, mostly. It hurts sales, but I rather make less revenue and more profit than pay for product only to lose it to scammers.
  - barsonme 7y ago
    Pretty much everything you mentioned under "secured" payments occurs in the US, too.
    - tluyben2 7y ago
      Why is it so easy to charge back then? If it's secured then they know it was you... Unless you have a police report saying you were coerced, forced, something was stolen?
Bombthecat 7y ago
Forbidden in germany. There is literally a law, which basically says: everyone needs to have and is allowed to have a banking account.
- odiroot 7y ago
  In Sparkassen. Deutsche Bank, Commerzbank, DKB, etc can easily reject you.
- jhrmnn 7y ago
  I think it is en EU-wide regulation. https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/banking-and-finance/consumer-finance-and-payments/retail-financial-services/access-bank-accounts_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/banking-and-...
- noobermin 7y ago
  Which further highlights how many "problems" that tech people in the US have tried to solve (transit->uber, various health care start-ups, etc) are essentially due to the failure of the US state to function properly or even focus on the right thing.
  - mola 7y ago
    Yup, it seems US citizens pay crazy amount of hidden tax because of inefficiencies caused by fanatical anti government propaganda. This isn't only about freedom it's about keeping power in certain hands. Too bad it's being exported everywhere
    - hoseja 7y ago
      I suspect there's also a healthy dose of not less fanatical social Darwinism thrown in there.
    - pluma 7y ago
      Just like how most public healthcare proposals in the US while technically raising taxes would end up leaving the individual with a much lower financial burden because of the ridiculous amounts of money Americans pay for healthcare and medication.
ryanSrich 7y ago
Seems like an interesting opportunity for a new bank — be the bank for porn, cannabis, etc.

geomark 7y ago

This is the thing I find very disturbing. That an industry as highly regulated and essential to every day life as banking can pick and choose based on management's moral choices.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
short_sells_poo 7y ago
It's not a moral choice. It's a case of the business is not worth the hassle. KYC rules mean the bank is on the hook if they are found to harbor ill gotten gains and the sex industry had a some troubles in the past, while not producing enough volume on an individual level to make it worthwhile for a bank to overlook things.
- derangedHorse 7y ago
  That just seems like profiling at that point, since they’re basically rejecting service to an individual just because of their profession. Sure they might say that there may be a higher probability of a someone in the adult industry being involved in illegal activities, but is it fair to outright deny service on such a wide scale?
  - wincy 7y ago
    Profiling isn't illegal unless it's profiling against a protected class, right? It's like how I can't get cheap life insurance because I took antidepressants like seven years ago during a rough patch in my life.
    - em-bee 7y ago
      profiling is illegal when the service is necessary to live. in germany for example, it is illegal to deny someone access to things like a phone line, electricity or water. (that is, even if you don't pay your bills, they are not allowed to turn of your service. instead, if they want the money, they have to sue you) i believe at this point, access to a bank account is also included in this. as things progress, more things will be added to the list. soon (if not already) internet access will be included.
      - kortilla 7y ago
        That’s not related to profiling.
      - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
        so I think what you mean is that profiling is immoral if the service is necessary to live, and in Germany (and other progressive parts of the EU) it is also illegal. I'm pretty sure these banks doing the profiling were in the U.S
      - noobermin 7y ago
        The cop out for "protected classes" is one of the serious failures of the New Left in the US and past generation progressive attempts to wrangle with social issues. It's one of the reasons you have things like clamoring for representation in small dwindling influential places (the meme is "more trans women drone pilots") whilst ignoring systemic issues like how Flint, Michigan still doesn't have drinking water. I've made this argument before and made Americans (obviously) mad, but this cop out of protected classes allows you to actually discriminate against said classes, you just have to prove there is no malice in your heart, more or less. That is, you did not because they are black or not men, but because of the sanctioned reasons, then it's okay.
        raxxorrax 7y ago
        Definitely a gigantic failure. Why not offer protection for everyone and treat them the same? Praise your literacy all you want, doesn't matter if the performance and strategies of political representatives are abysmal. And the concept of treating people equally seems to be beyond comprehension.
  - novalis78 7y ago
    The bank secrecy act forces you to profile. That’s why Caitlin Long repeatedly pointed out [1] how it is most likely an unconstitutional law and needs to get challenged in court. But it creates a moat around banking and therefore has not been seriously challenged. [1] https://youtu.be/LQX0trzomxg https://youtu.be/LQX0trzomxg
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  Not just in the past. There's a current case going on about a major channel that Pornhub used to feature about performers being allegedly both lied to about where the footage would be available and raped. Very possibly what spurred PayPal to make this change.
  - tux1968 7y ago
    That sounds like something that should be handled by law enforcement, not your bank.
    - belltaco 7y ago
      Sesta/Fosta potentially make Pornhub/Paypal liable.
      - jkaplowitz 7y ago
        Pornhub is Canadian, not American (their HQ is Montreal). Of course PayPal is American and Pornhub has plenty of dealings with the US, so your point stands.
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > Pornhub is Canadian, not American (their HQ is Montreal). That doesn't necessarily make them, or their principals, immune to US civil or criminal sanctions.
        jkaplowitz 7y ago
        I know, I said as much in my last sentence. I just meant it was less impactful on them than it is on PayPal. There is still some impact of course.
    - james_s_tayler 7y ago
      Banks form an important part of it as KYC is designed to cut down on Money Laundering. Globally KYC/AML rules have gotten much stricter in recent years. If criminals can't access their money it ought to curb some of the incentives.
- jrcii 7y ago
  Unless you’re a drug cartel at HSBC, then it’s ok
- hedvig 7y ago
  >found to harbor ill gotten gains Ah yeah like they were on the hook for laundering Mexican drug cartel money?
  - ohyes 7y ago
    Or the human trafficking?
  - lmm 7y ago
    Umm yes they were, even if they'd done everything right. Look at the HSBC case and tell me the bank did anything nefarious or even negligent. Nope, governments hit them both ways.
    - seanhunter 7y ago
      HSBC admitted negligence. The cartels liked working with HSBC so much they even had secure money boxes made that were specifically designed to fit through the hole in HSBC branch teller windows. There are tons of references online, but these are some: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-12-12/hsbc-mexican-branches-said-to-be-traffickers-favorites https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-12-12/hsbc-mexi... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/17/hsbc-executive-resigns-senate https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/17/hsbc-execut... https://www.foxnews.com/world/hsbc-knowingly-helped-mexican-cartels-launder-billions-lawsuit-claims https://www.foxnews.com/world/hsbc-knowingly-helped-mexican-...
      - lmm 7y ago
        First link is paywalled. Second link: they kowtowed to Congress because it would be worse if they hadn't. Look at what they actually did: they complied with the law and advised their clients on how to comply with the law. That's their job. Third link appears to be all about allegations in a lawsuit rather than anything that was proven.
  - short_sells_poo 7y ago
    If you actually read my post, I do imply that when it is worth it, the banks will overlook things, but an individual sex worker's business is not worth the risk (probably, I'm not a banker). They'll help you launder $100 million, but not $10000.
- LanceH 7y ago
  Wouldn't it be better to have them in the regular financial systems subject to the "know your customer" laws, so the money and customer can be more easily tracked? If it's about all sorts of illegal activities, shouldn't law enforcement use these things as a resource, rather than driving it underground?
  - NullPrefix 7y ago
    It is not law enforcement that is driving them underground. That is private corporations, who decide to rather not know those customers.
    - um_ya 7y ago
      It's been happening on social media sites too, so it's not just isolated to banking. It seems to be a political trend to censor non-politically correct things.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  Are you implying that you need to punish an entire industry because of the wrongdoings of some companies? I guess we should close all the bankers accounts because of Lehman Brothers. Politicians also.
- geomark 7y ago
  I suppose that is it, that if the volume isn't there then even the smallest risk is too much for the bank to bother with. So they just terminate. In a previous life I administered websites for a number of different businesses. One was a dating site that opened a small business account at a bank and then a couple weeks later the bank abruptly terminated their account, stating that they were not equipped to service "entertainment" business accounts. I guess their real reason was they considered there to be some risk that there would be soliciting going on and it wasn't worth the bother for the bank. The bank was very brash about it, stating that they can close an account at anytime for any reason.
arminiusreturns 7y ago
UBS and other bankers catering to major drug cartel money though... crickets and maybe a small percentage fine.
- godzillabrennus 7y ago
  No crickets, they fully embraced it for survival. https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-banks-saved-un-cfief-claims https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-ba...
- stuaxo 7y ago
  HSBC in Mexico.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  UBS and HSBC aren’t US banks.
x0x0 7y ago
I doubt it's moral choices and more fraud and dispute levels, ie the cost to service a customer.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jeltz 7y ago
  I am not convinced it is just that. PayPal also refuses to do business with online gambling which is an industry with low fraud levels (in the early poker days they were high, but that was a long time ago). Thankfully there are a bunch pf credit card processors who know how good customers online casinos are and most banks are fine too, so that industry is not deplatformed.
  - jeffasinger 7y ago
    Most of the online gambling operators in New Jersey take PayPal, though you usually have to use either a bank account linked with ACH or a balance you already have in PayPal.
    - jeltz 7y ago
      European gambling operators don't. It is pretty much impossible for a European operator to get PayPal (there have been a couple of exceptions).
      - ascorbic 7y ago
        The big UK gambling sites all accept PayPal.
        bostik 7y ago
        And I can guarantee they all had to go through a long, painful process with reams of paperwork to get there.

onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago

Can anyone explain how this even happens? Who could possibly threaten a bank over handling financial transactions for sex workers? And what could they possibly threaten the bank with? Even if it's some big business like Chick-fil-A... Presumably they only bank with one bank, and presumably the porn and sex work industry has more money at that bank than Chick-fil-A. How's this actually work? It's not making sense to me.

trhway 7y ago
>Who could possibly threaten a bank over handling financial transactions for sex workers? And what could they possibly threaten the bank with? The SESTA/FOSTA for banking seems to be coming: https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-sex-workers-are-wary-of-elizabeth-warren https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-sex-workers-are-wary-of-el... "Warren’s joint effort with Florida Senator Marco Rubio in 2017 to introduce legislation that would enable banks to discriminate against sex worker, known as the “End Banking for Human Traffickers Act.” (Despite bipartisan support Warren and Rubio’s initiative was never voted on by the Senate, but the same bill has been reintroduced this year as H.R.295 - End Banking for Human Traffickers Act of 2019 and just passed the House Foreign Affairs Committee in March.) "
sandworm101 7y ago
Amateur porn? User-uploaded X-rated videos? When things go wrong they go wrong fast. Professional studios know how to abide by all the various regulations, many of which change from one state (or even city) to another. Amateurs with webcams in their bedrooms do not. Just look at the "Girls do porn" fiasco to see why someone might not want to do business with an amateur-focused studio.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  That's not a ... relevantly fruitful ... search term. Have any relevant links?
  - belltaco 7y ago
    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvgxvw/girls-do-porn-employees-charged-with-sex-trafficking-potentially-face-life-in-prison https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvgxvw/girls-do-porn-empl...

Iv 7y ago

More broadly, financial institutions should be accountable. Because, indeed, discrimination is illegal, but suing a bank for it is long and very difficult if your account is frozen.

SlowRobotAhead 7y ago

Talk to gun retailers that were shut down by Chase and Bank of America. Legal has nothing to do with it. There is an increasing degree of business that entirely revolves around feelings of people who yell the loudest.

beatgammit 7y ago
This tells me we need more anonymity. A bank doesn't need to know any more about you than wherever is necessary to complete a transaction and report tax details to you and the government, and honestly that can be done with only a tax identification number (which should be separate from a Social Security Number). The same goes for payment processors, though payment processors may additionally need a company/individual nickname (for convenience in printing on receipts) and a bank account to deliver funds. I see absolutely no reason for an organization like PayPal or Chase to know who its clientele are, just whether they're legal from a tax perspective, unless the customer provides that voluntarily. And I could even see legislation preventing the collection of such data since it could be used to restrict access to essential services like banking. I think this gets us most of the benefits of cryptocurrency from a privacy point of view, but still maintains the ability of a government to track down fraud by cross referencing tax data with transactions. The only time someone need be connected to their bank account or payment processor account is if they're suspected of a crime, which would require a warrant. It shouldn't be possible, IMO, for payment processors to just refuse service based on dislike for the line of work the business owner is in. There are no restrictions on how currency may be used, so digital payments should be treated the same way.
- oneplane 7y ago
  But then how would you know if you are processing stolen money?
  - netmonk 7y ago
    how do you know that the cashback the shop clerk is handing your right now for your diet coke purchase wasnt used three days ago for buying Heroin in the street ? We dont know and we dont care !

RileyJames 7y ago

This debate is currently brewing in Australia, except its against providing services to mining companies. When is right / wrong to boycott? And who should be allowed to? (Persons or companies) Context: in Australia the prime minister (Scott Morrison) is looking into laws to ban boycotts by companies (who are being compelled by people / public opinion)

baroffoos 7y ago
Thats a really good counter point and I can't think of any way the situations are different other than my morals saying working for pornhub is ok but trashing the planet is not. Of course thats totally subjective and someone could be of the opinion that working for pornhub is not ok.
- kortilla 7y ago
  Mining != trashing the planet. Also, given that there is literally no alternative to mining, how do your morals allow you to support mining companies by using their products?
  - baroffoos 7y ago
    The coal mines in Australia are totally unnecessary. Australia is one of the best countries in the world for the ability to be powered on renewable energy. Which is now cheaper than coal. Literally the only purpose for coal in Australia is political reasons now. Yes I know coal is used for the production of other materials but there is more than enough coal currently being mined for steel. We just need to stop senselessly burning it when there is limitless energy raining down on empty desert.
    - brigandish 7y ago
      From what I know (and I don't claim to be an expert), solar panels require mining and also cause a lot of waste (what happens to a panel after its 20 year life cycle?). I've not heard whether solar farms would work in Australia - wouldn't the amount of distance be a problem? - nor whether they'd actually be any more efficient than nuclear. Certainly, I recently watched Michael Schellenberger's talk (it's in article form here[1]) and I was surprised at how destructive renewables seem when more detail is given about their implementation. [1] https://quillette.com/2019/02/27/why-renewables-cant-save-the-planet/ https://quillette.com/2019/02/27/why-renewables-cant-save-th...

lostlogin 7y ago

Considering the things that banks have financed in the past, the hypocrisy of this stance by banks is incredible. Everything up to and including genocide has been ok by them.

IAmGraydon 7y ago

Checking accounts or merchant accounts? Most banks shy away from processing credit cards for adult sites because the chargeback rate is sky high and it therefore presents elevated risk. It has nothing to do with discrimination.

tluyben2 7y ago
Or just fix that system; here (EU) it is not all that easy to chargeback (and impossible in many cases) because payments are secured; if you yell fraud, they will start an investigation (mostly automated); if the IP you paid from was around your house, you filled in correct info, you did 3dsecure (which is used on all my cards now; I had a few that did not have it and they got frauded, but a simple check showed it could not have been me and they reversed them all; they now have 3dsecure too for that reason) which means you knew specific secret information, maybe have a token device and/or the phone of the card owner, they will decline the chargeback request. If you are in your country most of the time and suddenly there is a 1000E charge from a merchant in Dubai, they will block it and call you. The ease with which you can do chargebacks in the US is harmful in a lot of cases imho. I have been a merchant (of digital goods; gaming, not gambling or adult) and got annoyed enough of US chargebacks (including from Paypal) that we started doing annoying KYC and added very long waiting periods before product delivery for US customers. We had certain payment methods (bank, and there were some payment methods that do not allow chargeback) that had immediate delivery. That fixed it, mostly. It hurts sales, but I rather make less revenue and more profit than pay for product only to lose it to scammers.
- barsonme 7y ago
  Pretty much everything you mentioned under "secured" payments occurs in the US, too.
  - tluyben2 7y ago
    Why is it so easy to charge back then? If it's secured then they know it was you... Unless you have a police report saying you were coerced, forced, something was stolen?

Bombthecat 7y ago

Forbidden in germany. There is literally a law, which basically says: everyone needs to have and is allowed to have a banking account.

odiroot 7y ago
In Sparkassen. Deutsche Bank, Commerzbank, DKB, etc can easily reject you.
jhrmnn 7y ago
I think it is en EU-wide regulation. https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/banking-and-finance/consumer-finance-and-payments/retail-financial-services/access-bank-accounts_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/banking-and-...
noobermin 7y ago
Which further highlights how many "problems" that tech people in the US have tried to solve (transit->uber, various health care start-ups, etc) are essentially due to the failure of the US state to function properly or even focus on the right thing.
- mola 7y ago
  Yup, it seems US citizens pay crazy amount of hidden tax because of inefficiencies caused by fanatical anti government propaganda. This isn't only about freedom it's about keeping power in certain hands. Too bad it's being exported everywhere
  - hoseja 7y ago
    I suspect there's also a healthy dose of not less fanatical social Darwinism thrown in there.
  - pluma 7y ago
    Just like how most public healthcare proposals in the US while technically raising taxes would end up leaving the individual with a much lower financial burden because of the ridiculous amounts of money Americans pay for healthcare and medication.

ryanSrich 7y ago

Seems like an interesting opportunity for a new bank — be the bank for porn, cannabis, etc.