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Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

• mikece 7y ago
  I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and then drinking water (which caused the tissue to expand and suffocate him). After that, toilet paper was issued as needed rather than having rolls available in the cells. They go to INSANE degrees to make self-slaughter impossible in these units.
  • sp332 7y ago
    Epstein was taken off suicide watch though. Edit: the rate of suicide is still pretty darn low, and lots of other stuff worth looking in to. Just pointing out that he wasn't on suicide watch at the time.
    • jacobush 7y ago
      It would seem if someone were to murder him, it would be prudent to take him off suicide watch first.
      • dannypgh 7y ago
        ...but surely it's also the case that successful suicide is more likely when someone is taken off of suicide watch, no? Citing this as evidence of malicious intent seems like a reach.
        • blotter_paper 7y ago
          He supposedly tried to kill himself 18 days prior, and he was a witness who could potentially spill the beans on a bunch of wealthy kid fucks (and whoever had blackmail against them, if Epstein wasn't the ultimate top of this pedo pyramid). Yes, not monitoring the arrested billionaire pedophile who had been fucking kids with other billionaires and political figures who control the country, right after a first "suicide" attempt is made, seems sketch as fuck. If they're not complicit in whatever happened, the TLAs would have had an obvious interest in monitoring that cell. Does the federal government not care about knowing if a foreign power has videos of a former President (and quite possibly a sitting one, though we don't have flight records) raping kids, or is the federal government incapable of monitoring a man in prison? I was expecting Epstein to die before trial, but I was still surpised by how brazen it was. This is the most obvious American deepstate murder since Michael Hastings.
          • cc81 7y ago
            So why didn't Epstein arrange so any attempt on his life would result on all the dirt on people being sent out? Why didn't Epstein tell the prosecution "Holy fuck, people are trying to kill me, I want a protection and a deal and I will tell on everyone" after the first attempt?
            • blotter_paper 7y ago
              I don't know how intelligent Epstein was or how much he knew. It's possible that those CDs they took from his locked safe[0] were the only insurance policy he had: > Federal agents who searched Epstein's $77 million Upper East Side townhouse in Manhattan also found "in a locked safe ... compact discs with hand-written labels including the following: 'Young [Name] + [Name],' 'Misc nudes 1,' and 'Girl pics nudes,' " according to a new court filing in Epstein's case. I can't find anything about what was on those tapes, what names were actually written on them, if the were encrypted, or if any followup investigation is being done, but maybe my googlefu is just weak. He certainly could have hired somebody competent enough to write a dead man's switch which would release the files if he didn't run a script every X months, but only if he was intelligent and knowledgable enough to come up with that plan in the first place. He could have known that he had no undeniable evidence left in his hands. He could have taken the first attempt as a message, and thought that keeping his head low and shutting up was his best chance at avoiding further trouble. He could have understood his time was limited while also still supporting the greater mission of the blackmail plot and not being willing to blow the cover on his handlers. These are all speculations, I don't know exactly how the events played out. I'd even give the body-double crowd a ~5% chance of being right (but that's a crit fail on a d20; 5% isn't much). I do feel comfortable saying that Epstein almost certainly photographed a former President raping a child, which screams "state actor blackmail," and it seems highly unlikely to me that such a man wasn't being watched by the TLAs unless they were purposefully turning a blind eye. [0]: https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/07/08/jeffrey-epstein-called-sexual-predator-as-prosecutors-seek-no-bail.html https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/07/08/jeffrey-epstein-called-s...
    • ddingus 7y ago
      Should he have been?
      • BubRoss 7y ago
        That's not the issue with regards to the parent comment. The parent said he couldn't believe someone could kill themselves in a bare cell meant to stop people from suicide, but that's not where he was.
        • ddingus 7y ago
          Exactly, thus my question.
          • BubRoss 7y ago
            What do you mean 'thus your question'? That's the first question everyone has, why would you ask it in an irrelevant chain of replies to someone who wasn't commenting on it in the first place?
            • ddingus 7y ago
              I don't know that's the 1st question everyone has. I do know this meta discussion is unlikely to be worth it, and I am quite happy to move on.
    • DanBC 7y ago
      > the rate of suicide is still pretty darn low, What is being counted, and how is it being counted? For example, what has to happen for it to be counted as a death by suicide in that prison? Is it enough for the self injurious act have to occur in the prison, or does the person have to die in the prison?
  • partiallypro 7y ago
    He was taken off of suicide watch, so he had all the materials he needed to kill himself. Also...every person I've read with working knowledge of that prison has stressed the gross negligence and incompetence there.
    • AndrewBissell 7y ago
      This was the same prison that somehow held El Chapo, a serial jailbreaker, in custody throughout his trial. They can be competent when actually motivated to do so.
      • RobAtticus 7y ago
        El Chapo broke out of Mexican prisons where his ability to influence guards/staff is much greater than a US prison. Also, being able to prevent someone from breaking out and preventing someone from killing themselves seem like two different classes of problems. Being good enough to prevent one doesn't necessarily imply being good enough to prevent the other.
      • weaksauce 7y ago
        fun fact, one of el chapo's attornies signed epstein's trust creation certificate in the days before epstein died.
    • goatinaboat 7y ago
      he had all the materials he needed to kill himself He is alleged to have hung himself with materials no stronger than tissue paper.
      • partiallypro 7y ago
        Says who? He was hung with a bed sheet.
        • goatinaboat 7y ago
          Plenty of sources for this e.g. https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2019/08/10/former-mcc-inmate-theres-no-way-jeffrey-epstein-killed-himself/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2019/08/10/former-mc... There’s no way that man could have killed himself. I’ve done too much time in those units. It’s an impossibility. Between the floor and the ceiling is like 8 or 9 feet. There’s no way for you to connect to anything. You have sheets, but they’re paper level, not strong enough. He was 200 pounds — it would never happen.
  • mc32 7y ago
    Yeah I’m also skeptical of improbable theories... but this one looks, I mean looks, too convenient. Cameras go offline, taken off suicide watch... even if it wasn’t someone physically doing him in, they can drive him to do it by psychological means. This was one of the highest profile cases in the last decade. That they didn’t have him watched 24x7 is incredible gross negligence or more. I mean you have low level criminals get more attention when they signal possible self harm than this guy. PS toilet paper: can’t they get prison safe bidets?
    • trickstra 7y ago
      That's because you never hear about the cameras that go offline when nothing interesting happened. It's probably very common.
      • mc32 7y ago
        Yes of course, but normally security would get pinged with alarms especially if the cameras were tagged as critical. In secure environs when they get a camera offline condition they send out people to do the watching.
        • pc86 7y ago
          This is going to sound argumentative and I don't mean it that way. > normally security would get pinged with alarms especially if the cameras were tagged as critical Unless you've worked on prison infrastructure before I'm not sure how you could know this with any level of confidence.
        • TheOperator 7y ago
          >if Honestly an IT team would MAYBE bother to prioritize these cameras as critical. They only definitely would after something like this happened. It's an easy thing to put on the backburner...
    • magduf 7y ago
      >PS toilet paper: can’t they get prison safe bidets? This is America: we absolutely refuse to use bidets, no matter how much sense they make.
  • arbitrage 7y ago
    The criminal justice / mental health field being what it is, I do not find it surprising in the least that a reviled kiddie-fucker would be allowed, by several levels of people involved, 15 minutes alone, along with plausibly accidental access to a means to kill themselves. The breaking of the hyoid bone is, in fact, not uncommon in hangings. Nor is the breaking of the cartilage. Nor is hemorrhaging in the face or eyes. Nor is blatant disregard for the fate of a paedophile, who in nobody's right mind could conceivably be innocent.
    • EpicEng 7y ago
      >The breaking of the hyoid bone is, in fact, not uncommon in hangings. Nor is the breaking of the cartilage. Nor is hemorrhaging in the face or eyes. You're directly contradicting an expect here. Have any sources to back that up?
      • camel_Snake 7y ago
        Not the parent but here's the first google result: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973326 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973326 TLDR happens ~25% of the time for males.
        • hnuser77 7y ago
          That may be 25% of all hangings, but I imagine the rate would be lower for hangings occurred by a 6ft tall person off a 6ft tall bed post.
          • mcbuilder 7y ago
            Yeah, I would be surprised if Epstein had any sort of drop if it was suicide. It's not like he had the means to tie a rope to a fan and kicked the bucket. If he did do it, it would be very ad hoc.
      • arbitrage 7y ago
        And you're blithely accepting the word of an expert who was paid to investigate the official autopsy, on behalf of Epstein's brother? Have any sources, etc.?
  • 542458 7y ago
    > killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility Ken White (famous-ish lawyer and notable internet personality) puts it this way: "But your assessment of plausibility is based on your assumptions about how the system works. Those assumptions are, mostly, wrong — naive Dick-Wolf-level law-enforcement-are-competent-good-guys stuff". Prisons, particularly american prisons, are full of incompetence and casual disregard to human life and dignity. The prison where Epstein died was understaffed, and the guards tasked with watching him had next-to-no training. Epstein had also been taken off suicide watch nine days earlier. Ken White put together 32 other cases where people died, or almost died in jail because the administration was too incompetent or too indifferent to do anything: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/thirty-two-stories-jeffrey-epstein-prison-death/596029/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/thirty-two...
    • snagglegaggle 7y ago
      > The prison where Epstein died was understaffed, and the guards tasked with watching him had no training on suicide watches. This could have been intentional, fyi.
      • nkrisc 7y ago
        I would wager that those same conditions were true long before Epstein ever set foot in there as well.
        • snagglegaggle 7y ago
          Apparently as Epstein arrived or shortly before his death the guards were rotated and two with very little suicide watch experience were present. One was also caught sleeping?
          • ssully 7y ago
            Is a guard sleeping on duty during a night shift surprising to you? As 542458 said, the level of competency that people assume is hilarious. Prison staff are overworked, underpaid, and have miserable jobs.
  • DanBC 7y ago
    People kill themselves when under observation all the time. The people observing are negligent, the systems don't work, people think 5 minute of 15 minute obs are sufficient. It's not in any way uncommon. Statistical methodology hides the true numbers. People talk about "suicide" when they should be asking about "suspected self inflicted death".
    • nkurz 7y ago
      > It's not in any way uncommon. Could you put numbers on that? From what I can tell, in the facility where Epstein died, there have been many thousands of people held, and only one recorded suicide in the last 40 years. Do you disagree with this claim, and think there were many more suicides that were not recorded as such? Or do you consider this rate to be "not in any way uncommon"? I could agree with "not impossible", but not with "not uncommon".
      • DanBC 7y ago
        > and only one recorded suicide in the last 40 years. > Do you disagree with this claim Yes. It's clearly nonsense to suggest that no-one has caused their own death while in that prison, so we need to ask what is being counted and how it's being counted. Suicide accounts for at least one quarter of unnatural death in jails. Suicide is the leading cause of death in local jails. Deaths by suicide are consistently higher in jails than in the general population. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/mlj07.txt https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/mlj07.txt Are they talking about NVDRS, or about state reports, or about institution reports? What ICD10 codes are they using? Are they only including deaths where the person died in the prison and that are ruled by coroners to be suicide? Because these two things alone will remove most deaths from the stats. Or are they including all deaths where the lethal action was completed in the jail, even if the person died later in hospital? Many people will die in hospital, not the prison. A suicide verdict will require a coroner / medical examiner to be convinced to whatever burden of proof they're using (beyond all reasonable doubt? Preponderance of evidence? balance of probabilities?) that the death was both self-inflicted and that the dead person had the intent to end their life. These are high thresholds, which is why statistical organisations (ONS in UK, CDC in US) don't count death by suicide by only counting verdicts of suicide from coroners. The vast majority of people talking about this death do not know what type of coronial / medical examiner system is used for deaths that occur in that prison. They don't know what burdens of proof are used. They don't know what a coroner / medical examiner needs to know to find a verdict of suicide. They don't know about the high rates of deaths by suicide among prisoners. They don't know that while, male, middle-aged, sex-offending, inmates are at highest risk of death by suicide. They don't know about the high rates of negligence among prison guards tasked with monitoring people at risk of suicide. And yet, even though they're ignorant of all this, they feel free to make wild speculation that he was murdered.
  • kpU8efre7r 7y ago
    Easy. He wasn't on suicide watch when he did it.
  • lotsofpulp 7y ago
    I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation for why a high profile figure wouldn't have a camera pointed at them 24/7. And a second camera for backup.
    • zbyte64 7y ago
      Cost, specifically: $200 camera < Implicated billionaires
  • zbyte64 7y ago
    Crazy to think that our justice system is so dysfunctional we can hardly distinguish between malice and incompetence. Conspiracies aside, such dysfunction provide opportunities to those who oversee to just "let it happen".
  • lazyasciiart 7y ago
    In 2018, Britain refused to extradite a guy to the US because he would have been held in either this prison or it's Brooklyn equivalent (the one where prisoners were left without heat or electricity in the storm this year), and they said it was too likely that he would commit suicide given the terrible conditions and lack of care (https://gothamist.com/news/prisoners-endure-a-nightmare-gulag-in-lower-manhattan-hidden-in-plain-sight https://gothamist.com/news/prisoners-endure-a-nightmare-gula...). Guards at this prison have been (recently!) convicted of raping or beating inmates. A few years ago a guy was beaten to death and the jail said he'd overdosed - the footage of that has never been seen either, the family is still suing the jail. Everyone who cared knew that this prison was a hellhole with poor oversight and poor control, long before Eptstein came near it. Nobody in American politics gives a shit that people facing federal charges are (according to the UN) routinely tortured by being held here. The DoJ is "investigating" conditions at these prisons, but since they are also running them, nobody expects much. (https://theintercept.com/2019/02/09/mdc-brooklyn-justice-department-investigation/ https://theintercept.com/2019/02/09/mdc-brooklyn-justice-dep...) The sheer ignorance that drives most of the reaction to Epstein's death is awful. Maybe a little of this righteous outrage could get spent on actually making these prisons the well-run, safe facilities people think they are, but I doubt it will be.
    • AndrewBissell 7y ago
      What is "ignorant" is pointing to the prison conditions of the poor and relatively unknown mass of prisoners and then asserting that we should have expected the same thing for Jeffrey Epstein. He was worth hundreds of millions of dollars (allegedly, at least), and when people of that level of wealth are imprisoned at all, it is at some Club Fed facility where they're relatively comfortable and well protected. In fact, we already have an example of how people like Jeffrey Epstein are usually treated in federal prison, because he himself served a stint in one after his 2008 plea deal, and it was nothing like the parade of horrors we are now constantly told is just par for the course for prisoners like him.
      • lazyasciiart 7y ago
        You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. For a start, this facility only holds people who have not yet had a trial. "Normally", wealthy people like him are not held in detention at all while waiting for their trial - like Martha Stewart.
  • admax88q 7y ago
    The takeaway from that story for me is that people will go insane lengths to commit suicide, though means nobody would have even thought of, and law enforcement just removes each mechanism as it's discovered.
  • friendlybus 7y ago
    Are we supposed to believe they didn't kill him? They took off suicide watch. The authorities are responsible for his well being. As others have said they go to insane degrees to prevent suicide. It's either death through negligence or active killing. If you take his moment of physical death out of the equation, the story around his legal protection and then lack of it was enough to kill him. I don't think there's much of a story in the end of the Epstein case. The only people that know aren't going to say anything until it's a footnote in the history books. The conservatives peso hunt comes to a close and metoo had Weinstein. Who knows what crimes they committed against the powers that be, if any. I don't know.
• wallace_f 7y ago
  Wow, I'm so surprised.
• bsamuels 7y ago
  I'm fascinated by the idea that someone could have killed and successfully covered up a murder this high profile. How do you handle the guards? How do you keep the other inmates quiet? Can you get away with bribing a single guard or is a larger operation needed? If you bribe people, how do you get the money to them? How do you keep them quiet when the inevitable investigation happens? I don't think it's impossible, but if this was a murder then it's fascinating that someone could be this good at assassination.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  • justicezyx 7y ago
    Remember what Hilter said before?
    • AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      No, I don't. Could you be more specific, rather than just hinting?
      • grouseway 7y ago
        My guess is that he is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously".
  • sp332 7y ago
    The inmates talked. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-death-shrieking-heard-jail-cell-morning-he-died-metropolitan-correctional-center/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-death-shrieking... If there was a conspiracy involving the guards, it involved at least two of them. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-jail-officers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-... (Non-paywalled summary https://thehill.com/homenews/457346-epstein-guards-fell-asleep-did-not-check-him-for-hours-report https://thehill.com/homenews/457346-epstein-guards-fell-asle... )
• ejstronge 7y ago
  It doesn't seem that this new claim discusses anything not explicitly mentioned at the time of the suicide decision. See the NYT article on this new report for a fuller discussion, as well as quotes from many pathologists: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-homicide-autopsy-michael-baden.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
  • AndrewBissell 7y ago
    The fact that Baden, one of the only two MEs assigned to examine the body, believes it was a homicide is certainly news. So is the fact that the NYC ME listed cause of death as "pending" initially and then it was later amended to "suicide" for reasons unknown.
    • camel_Snake 7y ago
      Baden was present for the examination - he didn't perform the examination himself. It's a small detail but I wouldn't put Baden's opinion and the official examiner's at the same level.
• 542458 7y ago
  This is not the head pathologist who performed the autopsy or anything. This is an pathologist hired by Epstein's family who is notable for saying dramatic things in an apparent attempt to get news time: https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/who-dr-michael-baden-coroner-examined-michael-brown-n183516 https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/who... Furthermore, there's nothing new here - all of this was known months ago. The damage in question - Baden's smoking gun - is not uncommon in suicides either. (Edit: this comment formerly claimed that Baden wasn't at the autopsy. This appears to be incorrect - he was there, but not on the medical team.)
  • RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
    From the article: > Dr. Michael Baden, one of the world’s leading forensic pathologists, viewed Jeffrey Epstein’s body and was present at the autopsy, which was held the day after Epstein was found dead at the notorious Metropolitan Correctional Center in downtown Manhattan. It looks like he was at least present at the autopsy
    • 542458 7y ago
      You're right, I was incorrect there - I was confused because he wasn't on the medical team for the autopsy. Looks like he was there as an observer, being paid by Epstein's family - which also introduces a fairly significant conflict of interest.
      • mc32 7y ago
        Why is it a massive conflict of interest from the family side but not from the state side (their pathologists)? Presumably they both care about careers and reputation.
        • 542458 7y ago
          The state pathologists keep getting paid no matter what their conclusions were. Epsiein's family pathologist only gets paid as long as he's involved in the investigation. If he said "Yep, looks like a suicide", the family would have no further use for him. But if he discovers some conspiracy that will take an indefinite amount of time to deal with, he keeps collecting paychecks. Also, this fellow seems to thrive on fame, so even more incentive to find something juicy.
• pkilgore 7y ago
  I hate to be boring, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which so far has not been presented. My brother in law is an attorney who literally makes a career out of the deaths and injuries that result from the incredible incompetence and neglect we inflict upon the imprisoned in this country. And as he puts it "Business is Good."
  • JackFr 7y ago
    We know that people are murdered in prison (though probably not as often as the media depicts.) We know that blackmail exists. While they might be uncommon, neither of those are extraordinary. It is also undisputed that: - a serial and unabashed pedophile had multiple contacts with two presidents, a member of the British royal family and a few titans of industry. - when prosecuted for his sex crimes said pedophile came away with a sweetheart deal that apart from violating federal regulations, was _incomprehensible_ in it's leniency. Now just because those two things are quite extraordinary it doesn't mean they are proof of anything. At the same time though, they are a justification for being a little more circumspect about dismissing conspiracies as crank theories.
    • pkilgore 7y ago
      Both blackmail and homicide are uncommon in prison. Suicide in prison is very, very common. The wealthy and powerful being above the law and getting sweetheart deals by prosecutors who are more obsessed with not losing and not working hard for easy pleas against people who cannot afford to defend themselves Federally is very, very common. Note I am not closed to the possibility he was killed, I'm simply noting the contents of this article are miles away from the kind of evidence sufficient to raise a doubt he killed himself. Obviously I'm interested...why else am I commenting after reading the article? The problem is that nothing interesting happened.
  • passwordreset 7y ago
    I'm not sure I follow you here. Which claim do you consider to be extraordinary, the claim that Epstein was killed, or the claim the Epstein was a suicide? Neither claim seems "extraordinary".
• dwoozle 7y ago
  I think sadly (or deliberately) this has been framed as murder vs suicide. Either way, it’s deliberate... Osama Bin Laden would have never been allowed to commit suicide in his cell. Someone looked the other way on purpose.
  • sixothree 7y ago
    > Someone looked the other way on purpose. Very much the story of his entire life.
• yowlingcat 7y ago
  To not make a snippy comment about the media treatment about it because that would be tiring, I'd like to instead draw an imperfect parallel to narcopolitics in Latin America. Kingpins from El Chapo to Escobar were notorious for getting away with just about anything, the former for his tunnel and the latter for actually dropping bombs. For a lot of folks on the other side of the border, perhaps they thought it was something that could never happen here. But, I think what I see there, what I see here just tend to reinforce something that I believe is vindicated by the rest of history -- politics can be very dirty, and to prematurely label something a conspiracy theory can get in the way of seeing the reality of what happens on the ground. There's a difference between labeling something a conspiracy theory because it feels unthinkable and labeling something a conspiracy theory because it's a stretch to imagine it logistically possible. I have a hope that somehow we can get to a reality where that's not the case, but it's hard to reconcile that with seeing these things happen again and again. How strong is a democracy? What is the price of freedom and liberty, and how resistant are any of the world's well-resourced democracies to this sort of high-level corruption? Were they ever resistant to it? Were democracy and technopolitics always merely a smokescreen over invisible perpetuations of the perennial brutal principle of "might makes right" and any egalitarian, humanist drive somewhat doomed to never fully (or even partially) succeed?
  • x220 7y ago
    I'd like to remind people that "conspiracy theory" was a propaganda term coined and spread by the CIA in order to discredit people skeptical of the United States.
    • blotter_paper 7y ago
      Coined, no; the term dates back to at least 1870 in a non-political context,[0] and I believe there's a documented use in a political context by 1890. Spread, yes, especially in via the document "Countering Criticisms of the Warren Report"[1] which used the term "conspiracy theory" and "conspiracy theorist" whilst instructing agents "To employ propaganda assets to [negate] and refute the attacks of the critics" (though that document did not directly instruct agents to use the term). [0]: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VsRMAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22conspiracy%20theory%22&pg=PA141#v=onepage&q=%22conspiracy%20theory%22&f=true https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VsRMAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22consp... [1]: http://www.jfklancer.com/CIA.html http://www.jfklancer.com/CIA.html
• duaoebg 7y ago
  When this first happened it seemed that the media was pushing the idea that be was killed as a crank conspiracy theory. They failed and now a majority believe he was. Including me.
• NoblePublius 7y ago
  These headlines should all read “says 85 year old man who didn’t examine his body.”
  • jowday 7y ago
    He examined the body. Re-read the article.
  • goatinaboat 7y ago
    Why is the age relevant? Perhaps you meant to say “highly experienced”?
  • micmil 7y ago
    He was present at the autopsy. That said, whether he examined the body directly or not is irrelevant. Coroner's reports are evidence and as such they are constructed to be examined at a later time. Please stop talking until you know what you're talking about.
• claudeganon 7y ago
  Epstein’s death seems the most overt taunt about ruling class impunity in my lifetime. Not only in its circumstances, but in the kind of shifting, threadbare cover stories about everyone with whom he was associated. Bill Gates, for example, had staff overlap between his foundation and Epstein, (including one who was named in Epstein’s will!) and was able to diminish these connections in major media outlets with almost no pushback. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-bill-gates.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-...
  • metalliqaz 7y ago
    I think the Panama Papers still has it beat.
    • chrischen 7y ago
      I feel ike for that Americans feel like temporarily embarrassed millionaires, but not necessarily temporarily embarrassed underage sex traffickers .
      • metalliqaz 7y ago
        I'm not sure I buy that "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" line. People are tribal and will fight tooth and nail to defend their tribe's beliefs, no matter how little it applies to themselves. People know they will never be rich. Almost everyone knows that. I think it's more accurate to say that Americans have poor education in civics and finance, and cling to near-religious dogma as a result.
        • RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
          > People know they will never be rich. Almost everyone knows that. I don't think the average American knows that until they hit 40, hence the midlife crisis.
          • libraryatnight 7y ago
• hurrdurr2 7y ago
  It sure was convenient for a lot of high profile people that this guy is dead. The cameras happened to malfunction on that day... guy got taken off suicide watch. Also his cell mate was an ex-cop who looks like he could snap people in half without trying. I mean come on.
  • rcpt 7y ago
    Didn't know that about the cellmate. Apparently he was an ex-cop who killed 4 people in solitary confinement.
    • nyolfen 7y ago
      he killed four people on the outside, which is why he’s jailed
  • saalweachter 7y ago
    Former cellmate; Epstein had no cellmate at the time of his death.
    • tyingq 7y ago
      What happened when they were cell mates is pretty curious. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/16/epsteins-ex-cellmate-cleared-after-probe-into-earlier-suicide-attempt-lawyer.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/16/epsteins-ex-cellmate-cleared...
      • cwkoss 7y ago
        Certainly seems like the previous suicide attempt was really a failed hit.
        • tyingq 7y ago
          I'd follow what the ex-cop's eventual sentence is. If he completely skates, surely something is up.
  • 7y ago
• jolesf 7y ago
  This is a rabbit hole that I'm not endorsing just sharing the link https://twitter.com/LibertyBlitz/status/1148259553621864449 https://twitter.com/LibertyBlitz/status/1148259553621864449
  • matt4077 7y ago
    You can't just advertise whatever loony accusations your link goes to (I didn't click) and absolve yourself of responsibility. That's the old "I'm just asking questions..." shtick.
    • cwkoss 7y ago
      What in that thread do you object to? Seems like it's all either factual or clearly labeled uncertainty ("seems", etc.)
    • mistermann 7y ago
      Does the safety of young girls concern you at all, speaking of responsibility.
• olivermarks 7y ago
  Whitney Webb has written exhaustively on Epstein at mintpressnews. Julie K Brown and others at the Miami Herald have been on the Epstein case for a decade and for a corporate media firm done a good job with investigative journalism. https://youtu.be/uQbndmXIkKQ https://youtu.be/uQbndmXIkKQ
• spamizbad 7y ago
  This doesn't make sense. This man has done so much for science and wayward teens.... who could possibly want to kill him?
• feelthepress 7y ago
  94% of cases of suicidal hangings do NOT break the hyoid. Must look at proximate causes, including foul play.
  • mcguire 7y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973326 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973326: "Fractures of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage in 25% of Thais who died of suicidal hanging were related with older ages and incomplete hanging but not related with location of the knot." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30015282 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30015282: "Altogether, we identified the following types of laryngohyoid fractures in 129 of 178 cases (72.5%): isolated fracture(s) to the thyroid cartilage in 60 cases (33.7%), combined thyrohyoid fractures in 41 cases (23.0%), isolated fracture(s) to the hyoid bone in 28 cases (15.7%), and no fractures to the cricoid cartilage or the cervical vertebrae." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S135311310090419X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13531...: "There were a total of 40 cases of suicidal hanging with an age range of 17–74 years (average = 35 years; M:F = 33:7). Fractures of neck structures were identified in 19 cases (47.5%) and were more common in older victims and males. Nine victims had only thyroid cartilage fractures (22.5%), four victims had only fractures of the hyoid bone (10%), and six victims had fractures of both the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage (15%)."
• rdtsc 7y ago
  I don't know if he killed himself or not, but it sure looks suspicious. The expectation is that there would be a flurry of investigative journalism lasting perhaps months, by different media organizations trying to uncover how he got his money, who flew to his island, or other properties, how many victims he had, interview with his house keepers, lawyers, Ghislaine Maxwell etc. But except for very few news items, there was surprisingly little uptake. You'd think after Weinstein, and #meetoo movement, there would so much interest in finding who is exploiting and abusing girls and young women, especially by someone as connected as Epstein and his "guests". One article was odd: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/fdny-review-jeffrey-epstein-4chan-post https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/fdny-rev... Odd because it was concerned not with the victims or his connections but that some paramedic or bystander took a picture of Epstein's body as it was wheeled out and posted it on 4chan. And how it was an egregious violation of HIPPA and FDNY should look into investigating that. Not a word whether they should look into investigating why the CCTV cameras didn't work showing exactly how he hanged himself with toilet paper...
  • shadowgovt 7y ago
    It looks suspicious, true, but it inconveniently looks suspicious along precisely the axes that one could expect from simple prison negligence, which is rife in the American systems. This is a real "horses and zebras" situation.
    • mistermann 7y ago
      Prison negligence seems unconnected from investigative journalism....why is no one interested in Epstein's crimes?
      • shadowgovt 7y ago
        Plenty of people are interested in Epstein's crimes. The FBI is still chasing evidence discovered during investigation of those crimes (mostly because it could tie to other people's crimes, and mostly without interference from Epstein's estate, since dead people have no Fifth Amendment protection against unreasonable search and seizure). But if the question on the table is "Was Epstein killed to eliminate the possibility he'd implicate others in his criminal confessions," the answer is "Probably not."
• dmix 7y ago
  This reminds me of that Netflix series about JonBenét Ramsey where they had all of these experts prove it was the brother who did it. It was all very weak stuff, but the people they used were all credible crime investigation people so it sounded legitimate. The poor brother was grown up now and a software engineer who already went through enough trauma and had to sue the show for defamation.
  • krn 7y ago
    > The poor brother was grown up now and a software engineer who already went through enough trauma and had to sue the show for defamation. I have watched that documentary and as someone who has a lot of experience with autism spectrum disorder and complete inability to control one's actions at not such a young age, I have little doubt that he could have done that unintentionally. Even as an adult, he still doesn't look as someone who is fully able to comprehend his actions. In such a case, it would be easy to understand the parents' desire to protect at least the child who was still alive. And not suing after the documentary was released was not an option, if they wanted to stick to their story.
    • dmix 7y ago
      He unintentionally garrotted his sister in the middle of the night? Then left a basement window open? They found touch DNA on her pants that matched a Latin male among lots of other stuff that just makes the whole brother story sound ridiculous. Autism is also not sociopathy.
      • krn 7y ago
        > He unintentionally garrotted his sister in the middle of the night? Yes, for a kid with autism it would have felt like "playing" without realizing the consequences of the "game" he was in. Such a person can be mentally unable to think two steps upfront, or even to have real feelings about his actions. > Then left a basement window open? Everything what happened later could have been done by the parents in an effort to protect their son. I personally wouldn't have released this documentary and believe that the family should be left alone, but have little doubt in its findings.
• ltbarcly3 7y ago
  Oh of course it was murder, it was clear he would be killed once they put him in jail (I won a bet saying he would die mysteriously within 2 months of his house arrest motion being denied). Then after he died I won another bet predicting that 'the cameras will have been not working', and sure enough when they looked at the video from the cameras it was corrupted or something. Obvious murder is obvious.
  • bvhg3 7y ago
    Or all the cameras malfunctioned because a Mossad team rescued him and deposited a dead look-alike because obviously Epstein is a highly valued member of the child-raping elite.
• kpU8efre7r 7y ago
  This guy isn't even the one who did the autopsy. Why do we care what he says?
  • malvosenior 7y ago
    He was there for the autopsy.
  • whamlastxmas 7y ago
    My doctor wasn't even there when I contracted the AIDS virus, why should I even care what he says? p.s. the doctor was there for the autopsy.
  • micmil 7y ago
    You seem to have no clue how these things work. First of all, he was in fact there for the autopsy. The fact that he did not perform it is irrelevant although it doesn't matter whether he was there or not. The entire point of an autopsy is to create a record of evidence that can be examined at a later time. Coroner's reports are made available to those who need them. This will include photographs of the procedure as well as written (and sometimes recorded, either voice or video) documentation of the findings. Sometimes these findings are incorrect and only noticed in later reexamination. This happens fairly regularly and it's not uncommon for a ruling on cause of death to be changed at a later time as new evidence is presented. Seriously, your stupid question is like asking why we care that the homicide detective wrote down what someone else saw. I mean he wasn't there either but I don't see you questioning basic police procedure and evidence collection.
• aezakmi 7y ago
  Dude was a known pedo and the powers that be wanted him gone, why is it so hard to believe? Is it that ubiquitous idea of being charitable or something silly like that?
• moltensodium 7y ago
  Yeah, outside of Lee Harvey Oswald this guy was the most important prisoner in the history of the USA. The fact that he just "suicided" in prison and we're all supposed to move on and share links about suicide awareness is utter nonsense. If the corporate media doesn't get to the bottom of this then someone else will, it's just a matter of time. Everyone is so tired of being lied to by authority figures.
  • avn2109 7y ago
    The future's already here, it's just not evenly distributed. Plenty of people probably already "got to the bottom of this." But you and I haven't dug deep enough to find it.
    • moltensodium 7y ago
      That's a big part of the problem right? We've stratified information access such that special elite groups get to decide what the lowly commoners are allowed to know. We know what's best for them. In theory this would be fine if we had a rigorous and well tested process for managing dangerous information, but the whole classification system has just been subverted to just hide whatever embarrasses the rich and powerful. It's an illegitimate farce.
  • cc81 7y ago
    What if it just was a suicide? If he had dirt on people would he not arrange so it would be sent out in case of his death? Especially if there was a failed murder attempt just weeks before? And what stops the victims of naming names now? And what would have stopped Epstein of just not talking and just denying?
    • mistermann 7y ago
      > If he had dirt on people would he not arrange so it would be sent out in case of his death? Considering the circumstances, if you received information from Epstein, what would you do with it? Even if you were brave enough to risk your life in the service of justice, what authority would you even send it to?
• faissaloo 7y ago
  What are you talking about? Clearly the rich and powerful are telling us the truth this time. You must be one of those flat earth people who believes in the jewish illuminati right?
• commandlinefan 7y ago
  When Edward Snowden “revealed” that the NSA had been spying on us for decades, I was shocked that anybody was shocked. After all, we’ve known that for a long time - people had been SAYING that for a long time. I realized after the Snowden leaks that most people actually thought they were joking when they said that the NSA was spying on all of us: “har har, as if that could ever happen”. It’s become increasingly clear that I’m not just being paranoid when I believe that they _are_ spying on us, and disposing of the ones who become a problem.
  • lukifer 7y ago
    While I agree, I think it’s worth teasing apart the “They” in this line of thinking. The conspiracy/Illuminati narratives imply a singular, unified cabal of power, which is a very difficult thing to achieve. But I think is more likely, is a loosely coupled system of mutual benefit with many players and imperfect knowledge, but all of whom are incentivized to (or selected for) not rocking the boat too much. Elizabeth Warren’s quote comes to mind: “The first rule of DC is that insiders don’t criticize other insiders.” I suspect the kernel of truth to conspiracy theories is that various private cabals, from fraternities to Skull & Bones to Bilderberg, act as trust and secrecy filters, selecting for those who know where their bread is buttered, and therefore can be trusted by various elites, who have common interests despite being in direct competition for power, influence, and resources (“honor among thieves”). There need not be a singular group of robed masterminds; just the amorally ambitious pursuing their own interests.
    • cwkoss 7y ago
      In the case of Epstein, it appears that NY Dept of Corrections and the coroner must both be colluding to make the suicide narrative plausible. There must be some level of coordinated pressure exerted on both of these offices for neither to highlight the inconsistencies. What would be more concerning: a governmental agency or a non-governmental organization having this kind of power?
      • SimbaOnSteroids 7y ago
• remarkEon 7y ago
  If Epstein was about to testify against the Mob and not about expose wealthy elites and politicians I doubt any of you in this thread would discount, at all, that he was “whacked”. There’s something really gross about how his proximity to power that we, ostensibly, “like” is decreasing our collective likelihood to state the obvious.
  • cwkoss 7y ago
    Any evidence it was the Mob he was going to testify against? I have seen a lot more speculation that he would reveal his cooperation with state intelligence agencies.
    • SimbaOnSteroids 7y ago
      They are saying that if he were about to testify against John Gotti no one in this thread would doubt that it was a hit.
  • dnate 7y ago
    I am shocked as well how many people in this thread seem to argue that this was not murder. It is ridiculously obvious. Occams razor cleanly shaves off the option that this was in fact a very convenient suicide
    • zzzcpan 7y ago
      If you know a bit of background on how these things work, it is also an obvious intelligence agency level murder, not just someone hiring someone to kill him.
  • topkai22 7y ago
    I would, simply because he had attempted once prior to the completed attempt. That said, it is super fishy case.
• kd3 7y ago
  To understand how things work at Epstein levels of elite, look up and watch the interviews with whistle-blower Ronald Bernard by Cooperatie de Vrije Media. Be sure to watch the first two interviews in full.
• air7 7y ago
  I'm don't buy into conspiracy theories and am a firm advocate for Hanlon's razor but this story is really hard to swallow. This is the passage from the relevant Wikipedia article: > The jail informed the Justice Department, when Epstein was placed in the special housing unit, that he would have a cellmate and that a guard would look into the cell every 30 minutes. These procedures were not followed on the night he died.[4] On August 9, Epstein's cellmate was transferred out, and no new replacement cellmate was brought in. Later in the evening, in violation of the jail's normal procedure, Epstein was not checked every 30 minutes.[4] The two guards who were assigned to check his cell overnight fell asleep for about three hours.[21] Two cameras in front of Epstein's cell also malfunctioned that night.[5] Also assuming it's true one might expect, given the gravitas of this case, that the multiple people responsible for such gross negligence would be prosecuted and brought to light and justice.
  • ScottFree 7y ago
    > I'm don't buy into conspiracy theories I do. How many "conspiracy theories" have we lived through in tech? I can name two right off the top of my head: prism and carnivore. Whenever there's an overwhelming chorus of "that's conspiracy theory!" what I hear is "don't look too closely! You might find something!"
    • paulcole 7y ago
      > what I hear is "don't look too closely! You might find something!" Ah, you mean like the link between vaccinations and autism? Or are you just taking about the conspiracy theories you want to believe in?
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      • ScottFree 7y ago
        That's a weak argument. One conspiracy theory was proven false so they must all be false? Does that apply to scientific studies, too?
• api 7y ago
  It is a suicide, just a complex and prolonged one. (1) Blackmail a whole lot of extremely powerful people. (2) Get busted and go to prison. (3) Wait for a hit man to come kill you. I guess it worked though.
• FillardMillmore 7y ago
  The most frustrating part is how blatant and in-your-face the excuses have been and how many media outlets just seem to accept what they're told and run with it without question. Just look at the responses we've been given to various questions (paraphrased, of course): Q: "How could he have committed suicide, wasn't he on suicide watch?" A: "Oh, well he was taken off suicide watch shortly before he committed suicide" Q: "Didn't he have a cellmate though? Why didn't his cellmate do anything?" A: "Oh, his cellmate was moved to a different location shortly before he committed suicide" Q: "Well what about the guards, weren't they supposed to be checking up on him every 30 minutes?" A: "Yeah, turns out they both fell asleep - sorry, we know how important a criminal Esptein was, but our guards were simply overworked" Q: "What about the cameras? Wasn't there a camera inside his cell?" A: "Yes, but unfortunately it malfunctioned" Q: "Well what about the camera surveying the outside of his cell?" A: "Oh...well...we've reviewed the footage on that one and unfortunately it's, erm, unusable" Q: "Wasn't the room supposed to be 'suicide-proof'?" A: "Uhh...it was but we overlooked the surprising tensile strength properties of the paper-thin bedsheets...our bad". Q: "Well how about some photos of the body? Can we see them?" A: "Sorry, he's been cremated and buried at his brother's request and we can't release any photos at this time" And of course, nothing (that we know of) has happened to all the many people associated and possibly complicit with Epstein. The paparazzi is following Ghislaine Maxwell around burger joints while Bill Barr's justice department files lawsuits to prevent Edward Snowden from making a profit from his book sales. It is legitimately more difficult to accept all of these circumstances than it is to believe it was covered-up, bought-and-paid-for hitjob. I truly do think Occam's Razor would dictate it is more likely that this is the case. Though, it is important to note, we do not yet have the evidence to say this is the case definitively.
  • SimbaOnSteroids 7y ago
    Plus the motivations of those implicated, if you're Prince Andrew, a Saudi Royal, or a Soviet Bloc oligarch you're just going to sit there and accept consequences?
    • FillardMillmore 7y ago
      All the players involved kind of add a cover for any nefarious actors. There's so many people involved and so many people that would have motivation to order a hitjob that trying to determine who would be behind such a thing would be at best a wild guessing-game.
• blackswan101 7y ago
  A worthwhile read: https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/16/la-danse-mossad-robert-maxwell-and-jeffrey-epstein/ https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/16/la-danse-mossad-robe...
• SpikeDad 7y ago
  If by noted pathologist you mean someone that will say anything if they're paid enough then perhaps that's true.
• aaron695 7y ago
  I see HN is turning into 4chan
• jariel 7y ago
  My suspicion is that he offered the guards a large financial sum (to be paid off by whoever is handling his money) to 'look the other way' for a few hours. Or maybe some very important sources paid the guards to do the same. This way 'thing handled themselves' while nobody had to do anything dire and the guards could simply claim incompetence.
• KoftaBob 7y ago
  I'm gonna go out on a limb here and speculate. Epstein was probably an agent for CIA and/or Mossad, and orchestrated honeypots where prominent figures were lured into sleeping with underage girls. It's such a predictable way for intelligence agencies to gain power over powerful figures. Once he was headed for a long prison sentence and logically had nothing to lose, the powerful people he had blackmail material over would obviously choose to get rid of him to prevent the chance that he revealed everything. It's really not that far fetched.
• BLKNSLVR 7y ago
  This may be the kind of thought bubble that's not welcome on HN, but the Epstein situation of high-powered contacts, the decade-old non-prosecution agreement (for child-sex crimes!) and the various inconsistencies surrounding Epstein's death as described in the article, form a seriously twisted situation when combined with the political rhetoric around end-to-end encryption and societal surveillance in general. Politicians chanting, essentially, "Think of the children", is phenomenally hypocritical when layered on top of the Epstein situation. The US and Five Eyes world-spanning communications surveillance operations couldn't even get this guy jailed for child-sex crimes?! How much is it costing for this wholly-ineffectual-at-what-its-claimed-purpose-is infrastructure?
• mrjlu 7y ago
  I wonder what the guards on duty that day are doing with their millions right now
• lurquer 7y ago
  Was it suicide or was it murder? Epstein, alive and well, doesn’t really care which side of the false debate you take. Of course there is a deadman’s switch... It wasn’t triggered. This isn’t rocket science.
• harry8 7y ago
  ok so, tinfoil hat - absolutely, how sure are we that the body was actually his?
  • harry8 7y ago
    I'm assuming that this is so obvious that it's considered not worth discussing, which is fine. I'd just like to know how are we sure that it's his body? What is the evidence for that? Is it just too hard to fake it and get away with it? Too James Bong (well it is, sure) but how do we know that's not possible? I'm prepared to believe it but I'm suddenly just really reluctant to believe anything about this case without evidence.
• HNLurker2 7y ago
  I already knew that
• Sidious 7y ago
  Anyone interested in fully understanding this story should look up Ryan Dawson.