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China Says ‘Stay Tuned’ for Retaliation over U.S. Tech Blacklist
- redisman 7y agoOh no! They might block US tech companies from doing business in China unless they comply with draconian authoritarianism. Everyone in tech knows China has been completely outrageous in its treatment of US companies for decades.
- darepublic 7y agoThey actually have porn viewing history of individual North Americans and they will start publishing it.
- 0_gravitas 7y agoCool, maybe that might actually encourage your average layperson to be a little more aware of the stakes of privacy-related laws and measures.
- dgzl 7y agoThankfully we're in an age where shaming is shameful.
- throwawaysea 7y agoSource?
- irrational 7y agoMaybe 15 years ago that would've been a threat, but today? Unless we are talking about child porn, or some kind of snuff porn, I don't think many people will care. Then again, it would be easy to claim that whatever china says I watched is not true.
- dageshi 7y agoI don't honestly think people would give a damn so long as the porn was legal.
- TaylorAlexander 7y agoI feel like they can leak a bunch of accurate histories and then for certain people they want to harm they can add a little bit of child porn to the logs so most people believe the logs are accurate but some key people get accused of being pedophiles. Electronic warfare is weird.
- bena 7y agoLet me ask you a question, do you think you're more or less clever than most people?
- thrower123 7y agoA lot of key people have been accused of being pedophiles, and in league with a person running an underaged sex trafficking ring, complete with a bizarre tropical pedophile island. Nothing happened - the person who could tie it all together was suicided in his jail cell, and the evidence obtained is doubtless consigned to the same dusty warehouse where the Top Men are keeping the Ark of the Covenant...
- TaylorAlexander 7y agoTop people wouldn't be brought down but middle level people can be ruined by this because there is no media protection. It could be part of an operation to take down an unsympathetic individual and replace them with a sympathetic one. Of course this is all purely speculative so none of it matters. I just think we live in a weird time. I agree that for many people the media kills the story and we're all expected to move on, and we all play a part in that.
- bluGill 7y agoHow am I to know it is accurate though? I can write up a "log" of all the porn you watched over the last year right now - the hard part is doing a little research to figure out where you live and get some idea of your likely travel. The log will be all faked, but when it is my word against yours... I doubt you even have logs of your real activity to counter with and so my logs will be pretty damming evidence.
- avocado4 7y agoAlso Grindr is Chinese-owned. An TikTok. Lots of people uploading nude content that CCP can deidentify.
- theflyinghorse 7y agoLet's be real who cares what Joe jerked off to? Not me. I will even say that maybe someone will build some universal porn recommendation out of such a data set.
- bena 7y agoI've witnessed the porn viewing history of individuals in a goddamn Applebee's. What are we going to learn? People like to jerk it?
- nicoburns 7y agoIf they removed US access to Chinese supply chains, it'd be a pretty big deal for the US... that might even start a war.
- redisman 7y agoEconomic Mutually Assured Destruction?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- patagurbon 7y agoHardly. Mutually Assured Damage, with the US clearly coming out on top. There are plenty of other places to make cheap goods, even disregarding increasing automation. There are not as many places to sell cheap goods by the trillions.
- semiotagonal 7y agoIn the long term, it isn't even necessarily damage. Chinese manufacturing won't be cheap forever; wages are already too high there for them to continue sorting through and recycling the US's plastic. Rebooting US manufacturing earlier rather than later will make the transition to "expensive China" less of a jolt.
- shkkmo 7y agoMoving manufacturing out of China is not synonymous with moving manufacturing into the US. A great deal of that manufacturing would move to other countries with cheap labor and burgeoning supply chains.
- TaylorAlexander 7y agoI wouldn't underestimate the quality of the supply chains in China. They've had decades of development and experience, and starting elsewhere could not be done without significant setbacks.
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoMicrosoft does a lot of biz in China, they might be affected by this, though they have worked harder than most to maintain a good relationship with the government.
- perseusprime11 7y agoIn the current environment, these "good relationships" don't matter much. They will be used as pawns in the larger scheme.
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoMaybe? I asked this question once at an all hands 5 or 6 years ago, and the answer I got was that the Chinese government liked having an example of a western company it had a good relationship with. Turning on even companies mostly friendly to it would be a very harsh precedent, though I wouldn’t put it past the CPC.
- perseusprime11 7y agoA lot changed in the last 6 years. China like no other country is rising and fast becoming a global power. It may not be a problem if they were a democracy or used unnecessary means to steal the IP of US companies.
- thereare5lights 7y agoI doubt that retaliation would be restricted to US tech companies.
- chaostheory 7y agoI think they block US companies regardless of whether or not they’re willing to self censor. Facebook is one example
- ninth_ant 7y agoIt could be massively disruptive to Apple, for example, if they chose to block production or sales. Sure it could hurt China as well but that’s what happens in trade wars.
- top-news-talk 7y agoStay tuned as we unlock your private censored internet!!!
- hn-sensors-lame 7y agoReposting this since it appears that hacker news secretly sensors comments!!! LAME > Stay tuned as we unlock your private censored internet!!!
- dang 7y agoIt looks like your other account was banned for trolling, which is what tends to happen when an account breaks the site guidelines several times while it is still new.
- sunstone 7y agoThere's little doubt that the future paths of the democracies and China will resemble the cold war of the 60's and 70's. Can't we just spare the drama, cut to the chase, swap corporate prisoners and get on with stockpiling weapons already?
- doyoulikeworms 7y agoHmm, what if we cut everything out except for the space race?
- enjoylife 7y agoConsidering the space race was abstractly, a push for strategic dominance of a physical domain newly enabled by technologies. I think it’s more likely this time around we will see a push into newly opened digital domains, e.g ml based cyber warfare.
- TremendousJudge 7y agoWell, space is still out there though, and current tech is much better suited to dominate it than 60s tech. The first nation to figure out space mining and manufacturing will be light years ahead of any competitor
- MS90 7y agoLet's just jump all the way to the end. Someone needs to get a sledgehammer and go knock some holes in the Great Wall.
- toasterlovin 7y agoThere's a pretty significant difference: China has way more untapped human capital than the Soviet Union. There's a good chance they end up with a level of economic development closer to South Korea or Japan than Eastern Europe. If that's the case, then it's like the Cold War, except it doesn't end in the economic collapse of the other side.
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- pulse7 7y agoSince everybody should be free to choose what to think and what to believe - why the European Union is watching and not doing the same as US? They should also to place top Chinese companies "on a blacklist over alleged human rights violations against Muslim minorities"...
- thefounder 7y agoUS really doesn't give a shit about human rights violations. I think all the grown ups know what these bans are for. It's the trade war, stupid! I can't stop thinking about that journalist butchered and Trump praising the arms deals with SA. Human rights and international law are brought up only when they serve US's interests so let's try to cut that bullshit on HN at least. US wouldn't mind if all the HK residents would be sent to concentration camps as long as it gets a "beautiful" trade deal with China.
- thepaperone 7y agoI hope you earned your 50 cents today. One (1) journalist is much different than one million (1,000,000).
- dashundchen 7y agoOn a related note, it was reported mere days ago that Trump personally promised Xi US government silence on Hong Kong during trade negotiations: https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/04/politics/trump-xi-hong-kong-protests/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/04/politics/trump-xi-hong-kong-p...
- tathougies 7y agoBecause the European Union lacks a spine and is too busy infighting among themselves.
- simion314 7y agoJust remind you that Saudi Arabia the BFF of US is not respecting the human right of women, that is around 50% of the population if my math is right and women are human too.
- ausjke 7y agoForgot about talking with North Korea, as a new "West Korea" is forming under the leadership of Xi, who is painting himself as Mao.
- aty268 7y agoCan somebody help me out here. I think the biggest issue on my mind for the coming election is the U.S. and China relations. I don't see any candidate who seems to have an interest whatsoever in being tough on China, and more terrifying, could lead us during a time that something bad did happen. Trump isn't the greatest, but he is the ONLY one I can see who I would trust would at least have the gall to stand up to China.
- CreepGin 7y agoAndrew Yang is a Taiwanese-American. It will be very interesting if he comes on top in the months ahead.
- aty268 7y agoI was an avid supporter of Yang, but I think he is a bit naive (Dr. Oz comments?) isn't a great speaker, and hasn't said anything much about China. UBI is the second most important issue on the docket, China is way further ahead. What do you think?
- loceng 7y agoHow many hours of video content have you watched of Yang speaking? Genuinely curious. And what specifically you have watched making you think he's not a great speaker? Toward the end of Yang being on Eric Weinstein's The Portal podcast they briefly talk about a solution regarding China. Yang definitely is aware, and he certainly understand the foundational principles of economics better than the other candidates based on what I have heard him speak of.
- CreepGin 7y agoI'm in the same boat. Yang makes logical and simple-to-understand solutions to real problems we are facing. But at the same time, I just don't feel he's charismatic or inspiring enough. And I also find it weird he hasn't talked much about his stance on China. I really don't see any downside of declaring a tough stance on China as far as candidacy goes. One thing I agree with him though, the top 3 dem candidates right now don't really stand a chance against Trump.
- bigYahnz 7y agoWho cares. This is not a fight we should back down from. Let them steal IP. Let them buy up land. Let them screw us on trade. Oh please, do anything but fight back!
- urda 7y agoOh boo hoo! This would be a net win for the world for China to seal itself off. They are a bad actor on the global stage.
- loceng 7y agoAgreed. Their follow through behaviour now is simply posturing.
- y-c-o-m-b 7y agoGeorge Bush labeled Iran, Iraq, and North Korea as the "Axis of Evil". In reality it's the U.S., China, and Saudi Arabia. There's also Russia desperately trying to join the gang. All bad actors on the global stage.
- wishinghand 7y agoLet's be fair, Iran, Iraq during Saddam's rule, and North Korea should definitely be members.
- y-c-o-m-b 7y agoI don't disagree, but their (Iran/Iraq/NK) problems are roughly contained vs the global destruction caused by the US, Saudi Arabia, and China. Iran is unique because of its proxy wars, but even then it's relatively contained to the Middle East. Although one could argue that is also a result of U.S. interference by the CIA. The U.S. also assisted Iraq in Saddam's early years and tried to conceal the fact that Iraq used chemical weapons against the Kurds (which we appear to be allowing again with Turkey currently bombing the hell out of the Kurds).
- yalogin 7y agoThis has already caused irreparable damage to China. Companies are not going to depend on their services in the future and definitely be moving out. The impact will manifest over time.
- bjourne 7y agoThis trade war instigated by Trump is purely playing on Nationalism. It is making me sick to my stomach that even smart Hacker News readers are getting caught up in the Nationalist fervor. I'm not a fan of China at all. We SHOULD impose sanctions on China and ALL OTHER countries engaging in flagrant human rights abuses. But the idea that this trade war would be over China's treatment of Muslim minorities is 100% bullshit and everyone knows it. If Trump gave a shit about human rights, he wouldn't be best friends with the leaders of Russia, Israel, Brazil, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc. We're all hackers here. American hackers, Chinese hackers, Russian hackers, Swedish hackers, Arab hackers, German hackers... The point isn't who can scream "$my_country #1!!!" the loudest. We should be beyond that stuff.
- busterarm 7y ago> If Trump gave a shit about human rights, he wouldn't be best friends with the leaders of Russia, Israel, Brazil, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc. Being friends with the leaders of Russia, Israel, Brazil, Turkey & Saudi Arabia is the status quo for US presidents given that those are our main regions of foreign economic influence. Okay, Russia & Brazil are a bit newer but that's just a shift in powers in the same regions. Moreover, foreign diplomatic relations is literally the US President's most important job/power. The president has sole discretion over dealing with foreign powers. It's literally the thing that he is supposed to do.
- bitcurious 7y ago>But the idea that this trade war would be over China's treatment of Muslim minorities is 100% bullshit and everyone knows it. I've never seen it claimed that the trade war is over human rights. It's been attributed to IP theft and uneven access to markets, wrapped in 'trade deficit' language. This specific action is based on human rights violations, but it's a relatively small action compared to the larger trade war.
- yalogin 7y agoWhat would happen if the US and EU are not made available to Chinese consumers at all? That is not an option now as most of the manufacturing happens there but if we assume this can be done and Chinese consumers don’t get anything made or owned by US and EU companies how big of a problem will it be for the Chinese government?
- skybrian 7y agoIt's a messy breakup and both sides will be worse off. But these are both huge and advanced economies. Substitutes will be found or built.
- busterarm 7y agoI really don't get Bloomberg. They post articles with wild conspiratorial nonsense as fact, absolutely destroying their credibility, but then they make sure to tow the line with China on human rights violations being "alleged". Shows you who their masters are.
- identity_zero 7y agoLol. Bring it on.
- mc32 7y agoIt’s surprising to think that in retrospect, relatively speaking, Hu, Jintao, was actually a good guy. He’s of course one of a string of CCP strongmen, but nowhere near the likes of mr Xi. It’s too bad some within the party saw him as too soft maybe leaning western, so Xi manoeuvered and became the next mr Mao... to the detriment of China _and_ the world.
- jaggirs 7y agoI dont think who the person in charge is matters that much. The conglomerate of powerfull people in china have allowed Xi to rise into power because he would serve their interests. Same when Hu was in power. In a mature political system, transition of interests and percieved optimal policy changes who the man in power is, not the other way around.
- rpmisms 7y agoYour comment, but applied to all countries.
- dev_dull 7y agoThey’ve blacklisted our companies from working with them without a “Chinese partner” — of course, that just ends up being a vessel company for state-sponsored Chinese espionage. If you want an idea of what China has been up to, check out this recent interview with a former CIA official [1 it’s right-wing OAN, get over it]. They “somehow” managed to learn the identities of every single CIA informant in their country their country. Some of them murdered as they left their homes. 1. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mqX_EESAdRY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mqX_EESAdRY
- squarefoot 7y agoShould the trade war escalate a bit too much, it will impact the cost of energy too. China has a rare earth minerals (think neodymium magnets used in motors and generators) yearly extraction rate 8 times higher than the US, and their extimated reserves are about 30 times bigger. They're #1 in the world in one of the most important elements industry, period. If this idiocy continues, it won't need to get to the military level to produce some serious damage.
- pg_is_a_butt 7y agoChina is still a thing? I thought Hong Kong defeated them.
- djohnston 7y agoWhich American tech has the most to lose? FB and Goog completely unaffected. Microsoft could take a hit but would be fine since they're ubiquitous. Apple? What's their hardware situation look like?
- rfc 7y agoMy only hope is that we can extend this to biotech as well. The amount of IP theft and insane Chinese government subsidization of biotech that USA-based companies live off of is disturbing. They are so addicted to BS money and are so entrenched that these companies fear they can't back out. I say - Rip The Bandaid Off.
- dang 7y agoOn HN, when there's a major story unfolding over time, we apply the "significant new information" test: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... The idea is to have a new thread for each development that adds significant new information, and to downweight follow-ups and copycat stories that don't. In this way we prevent the front page from being flooded with repetitive stories and discussions (often low-quality ragey discussions, the internet being what it is), while making space for substantive new content when it arises. We came up with this after the Snowden deluge of 2013, when HN's front page was inundated with a lot of articles that didn't make this distinction, and many users—even ones who found the underlying story interesting—complained. If we apply this test here, it's clear that "China says ‘stay tuned’" does not count as significant new information. On HN there's no harm in waiting until the next important thing happens, and in the meantime we can turn our attention to other interesting things.
- whamlastxmas 7y agoDoes YC have any links to Chinese businesses they might want to disclose?
- dang 7y agoAll I know comes from public reports, which is that YC was planning something in China at some point. I don't know what its status is. Your question may to be coming from a mistaken place, though. Nothing like that would affect Hacker News moderation. HN has had editorial independence from YC for years [1, 2] and we don't think about such things while moderating. What we think about is how to keep the site in line with its values [3], and how the community feels about things. 1 https://venturebeat.com/2015/09/29/y-combinator-spins-out-hacker-news-to-give-it-full-editorial-independence/ https://venturebeat.com/2015/09/29/y-combinator-spins-out-ha... 2. https://blog.ycombinator.com/two-hn-announcements/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/two-hn-announcements/ 3. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- lawrenceyan 7y agoHey dang, hopefully you're already aware of this, but if not, I just wanted to let you know that a common tactic I've noticed that's increasingly being utilized is to mass flag a submission in order to quickly have it removed from the top of the page. Since the algorithm automatically lowers the priority of highly flagged posts, and it requires some level of manual intervention in order to unflag a flagged post, it works quite well for selectively bringing down unwanted submissions. One way of resolving this I think would be to additionally add a weight for the existing prioritization weight associated with the number of flags on a submission such that a post with an increasing amount of upvotes requires a proportionally higher number of flags to be deprioritized. [e.g. maybe something like (number_of_flags / number_of_upvotes) * (time_decay_between_avg_interval_of_flags_per_unit_time_versus_upvotes_respectively)]
- dang 7y agoIt's best if you email hn@ycombinator.com with specific links if you think submissions are being flagged inappropriately. Since this subthread has turned into "ask the mods arbitrary things", I detached it from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21208169 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21208169 and marked it off-topic.