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America has no use for hides, so leather prices plunge
- neonate 7y agohttp://archive.is/clJ5X http://archive.is/clJ5X
- _bxg1 7y agoAmericans are eating more beef than they have in a decade? That's really surprising; seems everyone I talk to - not just vegetarians - have started looking at beef as something to be indulged in only on occasion. I assume the climate impact is the main reason.
- gtfratteus 7y agoCongratulations on living in a bubble.
- Pinckney 7y agohttps://www.nationalchickencouncil.org/about-the-industry/statistics/per-capita-consumption-of-poultry-and-livestock-1965-to-estimated-2012-in-pounds/ https://www.nationalchickencouncil.org/about-the-industry/st... So beef consumption is up slightly since 2015, but is still far below its peak in 1976
- jobigoud 7y agoThis is per capita. It would make more sense to get total numbers in this context.
- happytoexplain 7y agoI disagree, if we're saying that "this context" is the GP post's surprise.
- inimino 7y agoLeather and leather goods are easier to export than beef, so what really matters would be total world supply and demand, not so much local per capita consumption, no?
- mrep 7y agoTotal red meat and poultry shows 2020 and 2019 as the 2 highest estimates though and the rest of the data shows a pretty clear trend line going upwards. I'm guessing it has more to do with doctor recommendations to limit red meat for health concerns and so people are moving to other meats like poultry.
- diminoten 7y agoHuge swaths of America still see meat as an every meal thing ( myself included), and beef is a large part of that.
- PopeDotNinja 7y agoI would have a hard time without meat. There's so much food I don't like.
- southerndrift 7y agoWhat do you eat besides meat? Since meat has the lowest energy density, you most likely get your energy from other sources anyway. Even if you eat 500g / 1lb per day for a 2000kcal target, you would still get 1500kcal from other food.
- deftnerd 7y agoI think you have those reversed. Meat is incredibly packed with proteins and the calorie density is very high.
- radicalbyte 7y agoLean meat is has around 100 kcal per 100 grams. This is similar to most fruits and veg. More fatty meat sits at around 230 kcal per 100 grams. You'll find that carb sources are around 200-350 kcal per 100 gram and sweet process foods are around the top of this level. So when the OP says that the calorie density in meat is low, they are correct in the case of lean meat.
- antisthenes 7y agoSource for the 100kcal per 100 grams please. Even rabbit meat, the leanest possible game meat has 136 calories per 100 grams. https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/rabbit-meat?portionid=61327&portionamount=100.000 https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/rabbit-mea... Average red meats will have calorie ranges right around 180-240 kcal per 100 grams. Of course that's low compared to sugary processed foods if you're going just by calories. But it certainly isn't lowest when you consider the entire food pyramid. (most veggies and some fruits are lower)
- efiecho 7y agoThat's why one should not make assumptions based on limited personal experience. We have eaten meat for thousands of years and most people will not stop doing that, just bcause it's currently fashionable to say you do not eat meat or have reduced consumption.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- erikpukinskis 7y agoCalling something fashionable is just a cheap way to be dismissive. I’d respect you more if you stated openly which aspects of vegetarian efficiency, morality, pollution, health you think are nonsense. There are good arguments to be made there, but you’re hiding behind an empty insult.
- petrocrat 7y agoThe argument for omnivorianism that I find unassailable is that plowing which is required for annuals is actually worse for the environment than ruminant emissions. While utilizing perenials will require ruminants for a truly holistic agriculture that cycles all nutrients efficiently. So a Perennial plant base agriculture with ruminants to hlelp cycle nutrients is the best ag option available, so eating a few a of the ruminants as they age out of the cohort makes sense, and would be wasteful not to do so.
- erikpukinskis 7y agoThat seems plausible, although it rules out almost all commercial meat. Since the feed will have gone through the same tillage. I certainly wouldn’t argue against anyone who is buying meat from someone like Joel Salatin. I wonder if there’s a word for this... “either stop eating beef or start paying a lot for it” diet?
- MandieD 7y agoSelective omnivorism? I actively avoid meat in the company cafeteria and at most restaurants, but buy grass-fed beef or a free-range chicken most weekends to cook, or packaged free-range chicken legs if I’m feeling a bit lazy. The price per pound is ridiculous (“why did you spend 15 bucks on a little chicken that looks like a damn mockingbird?”) to my dad, who eats a good half pound of meat every day. In the end, I probably spend about as much on meat as a less-picky meat eater in Germany does. 1kg free-range chicken legs: 8-10 EUR, 1kg cheapest chicken legs: 2-3 EUR. Two free-range chicken legs weigh about the same as one cheap one.
- craftyguy 7y agoYour anecdata is obviously incorrect. It's amusing how folks on 'hacker' 'news' struggle with this concept.
- mwfunk 7y agoThat’s what the person you were responding to was saying- that they were surprised at the difference between their anecdata and the real data. And you responded by shitting on them for no good reason. Great job.
- tempsy 7y agoThe surge in interest in keto (and less so the "carnivore" diet) would probably have something to do with it. As far as meat goes, beef is preferred to poultry or pork on that diet due to fat content.
- 1123581321 7y agoI would bet money that some of the people you talk to have had a McDouble in the last month. :)
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- wolco 7y agoIt's just lot of signalling. If they are vegetarians they eat no meat, ever. No chicken, seafood or taco Tuesday.
- prawn 7y agoI don’t think it is. A lot of people have serious concerns and take steps because of that.
- wolco 7y agoA lot of people do but go back some because of health issues, others because there friend circle changed and others keep going forever. The parent poster mentioned everyone around him.. when the majority has accepted a viewpoint many will signal they are on board but eat meat with their other friends or parents. People want to fit in. It may seem like everyone but it may not be true.
- prawn 7y agoThe parent said: "seems everyone I talk to" and "have started looking at beef as something to be indulged in only on occasion". Not that people weren't still eating the same amount or that they didn't still eat red meat on social occasions to fit in (wait, more signalling!). My dispute is with the idea that people only take an action to signal and not because they personally care.
- AdrianB1 7y agoThe population is also growing, even assuming everyone keeps the same eating habits it results in increased total consumption.
- reallydude 7y agoI saw a pile of leather pieces outside a home, on the street, near Seattle with a sign that said "free leather". I'm not sure why anyone would want it, but it looked sad...like someone had died and they were clearing the home.
- criddell 7y agoPeople make stuff with it. Check out https://www.reddit.com/r/Leathercraft/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Leathercraft/
- matheweis 7y ago“According to Hidenet, a leather markets research firm, a hide from a branded cow went for as little as $4 the week of July 15, down from as much as $81 just five years ago.” Wait, what? Consumer trends have shifted so radically in 5 years that even with a white hot economy leather prices have dropped by 20x?
- mikeash 7y agoI assume cows are mostly raised and slaughtered for their meat, with leather as just a sort of bonus. That would mean that the supply is extremely inelastic: farmers won’t raise and slaughter noticeably fewer cows just because leather prices drop a lot, or more cows just because they jump a lot. That would imply that a small swing in demand could result in large changes in price.
- luxuryballs 7y agoI wonder how much of this is because of the increase in cheaper faux leather, maybe even also combined with inflation, you may be paying the same numerical amount for poly leather as you did for genuine leather 20 years ago. Also I guess if a company can cut costs by using the improved poly leather and the consumer doesn’t notice or care then that’s the move.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y agoMore like cheap Chinese bonded leather which permeates most sub-$100 leather goods. I make a pass on buying most leather products because it's so hard to find decent quality without an overinflated price. I don't even dare buying it online unless its a niche where substandard materials are unlikely.
- mrnobody_67 7y agoFeels like the leather industry needs to launch an education campaign to distinguish the real thing from the cheap China knock offs... big marketing/branding opportunity for the sector. Most consumers, myself included, have no clue about grading leather, etc.
- lxhmj 7y agoIn World of Warcraft, there isn't any use for hides either. You can only cure them, but then there's nothing to do with the cured hides. The vendor price is static and set by Blizzard, though, so the prices don't change. I hope this comment has been useful to someone.
- tialaramex 7y agoI would be sympathetic to the idea that in-game economies should try to be "real" except that Ultima Online tried that and it failed spectacularly (think: tragedy of the commons) and so they had to abandon it.
- zsrxx 7y agoThe in-game economy of WoW is "real" (only vendor prices are set; there's an auction house where prices are set by the players), but Blizzard has to come up with new stuff for players to burn gold with to control the predictable inflation. To me the most blatant examples are mounts; in the last expansion they added a mount that costed 2M gold[]--when I thought it was crazy and that they couldn't possibly outmatch it, they came up with a 5M gold mount[] that was released in the next (current) expansion. []https://www.wowhead.com/item=137570/bloodfang-cocoon https://www.wowhead.com/item=137570/bloodfang-cocoon []https://www.wowhead.com/item=163042/reins-of-the-mighty-caravan-brutosaur https://www.wowhead.com/item=163042/reins-of-the-mighty-cara...
- johnzim 7y agoTo be fair, Ultima Online’s economy was tanked by the innovation of bard/tamers and the Trammel ruleset introduced in Renaissance. Massively increasing the supply by having it possible for players to trivialise the ransacking of dungeons without risk of losing their haul to PKers. Classic inflationary spiral.
- jghn 7y agoThe virtual economy of UO was killed by the time the beta test ended. We're talking about the NPC shopkeepers here, not the player owned vendors. The NPCs were supposed to follow things like supply/demand as well as having preferences as to what they wanted. Players got mad as they wanted to just be able to dump any old crap (typically bucketloads of skullcaps) to any old NPC. The NPC shopkeepers also kept hours, would take breaks & walk around town, etc. That was another thing they wound up getting rid of quickly
- jbob2000 7y agoThis is a shame because if you search for leather goods online, you’ll find whole shops full of garbage quality leather called Premium Crafted Leather aka PU Leather. They take leather fibers and coat it in polyurethane to give it a “proper” finish. It’s disappointing to see a race to the bottom with leather quality when it seems like there’s no need for that.
- human20190310 7y agoNon-leather goods are even worse. It's really hard to find a vegan wallet and belt that isn't pretending to be leather in some inadequate way.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago> It's really hard You can't just google "canvas wallet" or whatever is your preferred material?
- human20190310 7y agoMany of these canvas wallets include features such as "full-grain leather trim" which defeats the purpose of the search. Those that don't mostly look like fragile garbage.
- nitrogen 7y agoMaybe just skip the traditional look entirely and buy a wallet made from Tyvek, or maybe a solid metal billfold/card holder.
- rjsw 7y agoThere seem to be plenty of fabric wallets available to me.
- wolco 7y agoVegan wallet? Sounds like a marketing ploy. Look for plastic or hemp or clothe if leather is off the table.
- 7y ago
- hexscrews 7y agoPaywalled.
- pbhjpbhj 7y agoShoe prices must be rock bottom, right?
- gingabriska 7y agoBut shoes aren't priced for raw material used, they've brand value which fetches higher price which mostly has to do with social signaling.
- bdowling 7y agoThat’s not true if you’re talking about well-made men’s dress shoes. In that market, the best shoes are the best entirely because of materials and workmanship. Brand mainly indicates the level of quality you should expect as a buyer. Also, the brand can’t serve much of a social signaling function because usually trademarks aren’t visible and designs are traditional.
- jefftk 7y agoThat makes sense, but since you're mostly paying for expert labor, decreases in the cost of the raw materials won't affect the price much.
- wincy 7y agoTime to get some whole cut leather shoes, now on sale from $700 to only $600! $5 for the hide and $595 for the shoemakers labor. (Handmade stuff is expensive)
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoShoes don’t use a lot of leather at all.
- rabbitonrails 7y agoHow long can hides be stored before becoming unusable?
- compiler-guy 7y agoWith proper prep and good climate control, you can store leather for decades.
- gingabriska 7y agoSo is it going to affect India? Leather is prominent industry in India. To what extent will it be affected?
- selimthegrim 7y agoMy impression was Yogi Adityanath had already been picking on the industry in UP largely because of who predominates in it
- bendbro 7y agoAre you implying something about religion based infighting between Muslims and Hindus?
- hollerith 7y agoLeather workers should see a small increase in demand.
- billfruit 7y agoIf you have read Richard Henry Dana, "Two Years Before the Mast", much of life in California used to revolve around the processing and trade of hides, in fact seemingly in many places that was the only activity going on. How the times have changed.
- kanaba 7y agoAn excellent book and insight into a slice in time.
- wyldfire 7y ago> So-called fast-fashion and athleisure — clothing which contains no leather at all — now dominate American retail. This makes me think of the wallmount synthetic-fiber-clothing-dispenser from "Idiocracy."
- gumby 7y agoI never liked leather as a material: heavy, easily scratched, etc. when I was a kid it was used in everything from backpacks to camera cases. Leather seats in cars get hot in ways cloth ones do not. Etc. Good riddance! Well, I have leather hiking boots. Heavy but highly functional. It always seemed crazy to me that leather goods, while functionally inferior in most cases, are considered the ”luxury” versions. Some sort of Vleben reasoning I suppose. Well, at least it’s biodegradable unlike most of the alternatives. That’s a big deal too.
- inamberclad 7y agoMy boots scratch because they're coated and dyed oddly, drives me nuts. All the scratches on my belt blend in over time. I love the stuff (thank you, cows), it's a heavy, reliable organic construction material. Lasts a lot longer than fabrics. The trick is to get 'full grain' leather, that's the actual thickness of the cowhide and doesn't have backings or multiple layers glued together.
- theandrewbailey 7y ago> Leather seats in cars get hot in ways cloth ones do not. I never understood the fascination with leather car seats. Climbing into an oven to sit on a burner isn't my definition of premium or luxury by a long shot.
- lwhalen 7y agoInteresting. I suppose I'm one of the few holdouts who still love leather clothing (motorcycle jackets, you weirdos ;-)) and accessories (I have multiple Saddleback Leather bags, wallets, etc). I don't see those items getting cheaper any time soon, I guess that indicates their profit margins have gone through the roof in the interim.
- stonogo 7y agoThe expense in producing fine leather goods is the labor costs. It's a craft which requires much training and/or experience, and highly-skilled leatherworkers do not come cheaply.
- Scoundreller 7y agoIs there any reason why someone in a developing country couldn't be trained to do it? It's definitely not a niche skill.
- Joelexander 7y agoOh there are. They usually make up the "value" segment of the luxury goods markets. For men's dress shoes brands like Meermin and Grant Stone (China) are competing with Carmina (Spain) and Alden (USA). I'm sure there's others for every type of leather good imaginable.
- AdrianB1 7y agoAs someone who loves a good quality leather belt (or wallet), I see the same situation in Europe. Probably not a US-specific problem, but a clothing industry problem (where they ask for insane prices and cut all the corners on quality).
- ngngngng 7y agoI'm actually in the market for a leather jacket and boots right now, but I certainly haven't noticed prices going down at all. I'm finding leather jackets extremely difficult to shop for. Online advice is all over the place, and I want something to last a lifetime.
- lwhalen 7y agoDepending on where you're located, it might be worth checking out Langlitz Leather in Portland, OR. I have two of their jackets, my girlfriend has one, and I have friends who have them as well. They are absolutely "buy once, cry once" garments, I suspect my family will be fighting over mine when I am (eventually) dead.
- stevenbedrick 7y agoSeconding the Langlitz recommendation- their stuff is fabulous.
- pvarangot 7y agoMade to measure starts at 1kish and bespoke from a nice workshop at around 1.5k to 2k, for normal cow or sheep or goat leather. More than that and you are paying for the brand and less than that and your jacket is probably from an Indian or Chinese sweatshop, like All Saints. The retail clothes industry is getting insane with all the markup from actually sourcing the garment, the smart choice for expensive pieces if you really know what you want is having it made.
- dzhiurgis 7y agoI can understand a reason why would you want something last a lifetime, but what about comfort? I've never had a leather jacket - they seem heavy and not really weatherproof. Something like merino hoodie + gore tex windbraker is my go to for last 4 years now. Absolutely love it.
- elorant 7y agoIt's true that leather jackets aren't very comfortable because they can't stretch. But they're definitely warm and proof of that is that they're worn by motorcyclists for ages. And then there is the fact that you can wear them in multiple occasions, from a social event to a casual stroll with your friends. You can even wear them with a tie.
- stonogo 7y agoI'd be interested to know how much of this has to do with the dilution of the meaning of 'leather' in terms of consumer goods. The market is flooded with garbage products, which are produced by slicing a thin veneer of leather and gluing it to a plastic backing, which is then sold as "bonded leather." It's gotten so bad that full-grain leather products are exceedingly rare. Since 90% of "leather" products are such awful garbage, it's not surprising to me that consumers have abandoned the sector en masse.
- eloff 7y agoI bought a pricey belt from Kenneth Kole made of this crap without knowing better. It was garbage within months. I learned my lesson and bought a proper leather belt from who knows what brand from Amazon for a fraction of the price, it's doing great years later. My parents had a horrible experience with made in china "leather" chairs. They had to reupholster them within months. You have to be very careful buying leather now and do hours of product/brand research to ensure you're not getting a lemon. At my hourly rate, that costs me way more than the product itself for anything less than large furniture items. I'm a lot less likely to buy leather goods as a result.
- cnst 7y agoThe brand names are the worst in this regard. I think pretty much any Kenneth Kole leather item I have ever seen in the last 10 years has been fake leather; definitely do stay away from those.
- xahrepap 7y agoI had a really awesome leather belt that I got when I was 15. I stopped wearing it when I was 30 because my weight finally out outgrew the belt. Still have it. It's no worse today than it was when I got it as a teen. I go through about a belt a year now. Because I always seem to end up with this crap you describe. Even if I try to avoid it. Guess I need to do a better job looking... Or just lose some weight so I can use that same belt for another 15years.
- 7y ago
- pitcher 7y agoDoubt if this has much to do with not needing a use v/s the ethical problems attached to it + synthetic options being more viable and cheaper
- PorterDuff 7y agoSo how come Lucchese boots are still so expensive?
- ficklepickle 7y agoThe article claims natural tanning methods result in an inferior product. I believe this to be false. The reason nasty chemicals are used is because it is cheaper, especially if the toxic waste can just be dumped in the environment. If they are "looking" for a natural method, look no further than Chouara tannery in Fez, Morocco. It's an open air tannery that has operated continuously since the 11th century, with the techniques handed down through the generations. They use cow urine, pigeon feces, quicklime, salt and water in the tanning process. It smells about as bad as you would imagine. They give visitors a sprig of mint to hold in front of your nose. It helps, a little bit. The end result is gorgeous leather that stands up very well. I have a pouf that is dyed with saffron, it is still soft a decade later. If you get a chance to buy some of this leather, I would highly recommend it. I'm sure it is available online, too.
- rdlecler1 7y agoCheap corn and soybeans = cheap feed = more cows = more leather = lower prices.
- g_2k3 7y agoDoes anybody know where to get these low price hides in the US. I am a hobbyist leather worker and I have not noticed any fall in prices.
- dcchambers 7y agoUnfortunately these lower leather prices certainly don't seem to have affected the price of premium, handmade leather goods. Leather is good in so many things: wallets, belts, shoes, bags, jackets... It's naturally water-resistant and lasts for decades, yet it seems like all the big-box stores and manufactures have abandoned real full-grain leather for synthetics or even cheaper leather alternatives (PU, "top grain," "corrected grain," "genuine," etc). Despite the leather prices falling off a cliff, real full-grain leather is becoming a niche market. > “There are hides with no value. We’re throwing a natural product in the garbage.” This makes me very sad. The least we could do with the burgeoning meat market is use all of the parts of the animal to the best of our ability. The fact that people still prefer fake synthetic leather when real leather is so cheap and readily available it's being thrown away is unfortunate.
- EliRivers 7y agoUnfortunately these lower leather prices certainly don't seem to have affected the price of premium, handmade leather goods. I suspect (but cannot prove) that in the case of premium, handmade leather goods, the majority of the cost (probably a really big majority) is the time of the people hand-making it, which is unaffected by the drop of the cost in the leather.
- ValentineC 7y ago> it seems like all the big-box stores and manufactures have abandoned real full-grain leather for synthetics or even cheaper leather alternatives (PU, "top grain," "corrected grain," "genuine," etc). If we're specifically talking about full-grain leather, I suspect that it's because consumers have this unrealistic ideal of "unmarked"/"mint" leather that's hard to achieve, at low prices, on large pieces of full-grain leather.