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How Men’s Bodies Change When They Become Fathers

323 points by cgoodmac 7y ago

ademup 7y ago
"Certain areas within parts of the brain linked to attachment, nurturing, empathy and the ability to interpret and react appropriately to a baby’s behavior had more gray and white matter between 12 and 16 weeks than they did between two and four weeks." For you father-programmers out there: did you notice any changes in your programming/work abilities around the 12-16 week mark?
- rangibaby 7y ago
  I didn't notice any improvements work-wise, probably thanks to all the missed sleep
- steve_adams_86 7y ago
  I've always felt very child-focused by that point and working becomes more difficult. I've moved towards moving my work schedule around my kids rather than the other way around because I get very unhappy prioritizing work first. So, without enough time with my kids, my abilities as a programmer absolutely plummet. I wake up early and work, spend time with my toddler, then finish work while he naps and when his mom is home.
- bgdnyxbjx 7y ago
  The only difference I noticed was that my brain didn’t work as well due to barely sleeping for months.
- mrmonkeyman 7y ago
  My kid doesn't nap and sleeps very short. My productivity took a nose dive from the quite extreme sleep deprivation. Sleeping 3-4h for months is bad for your mind.
- harry8 7y ago
  Oh yes, and how. You're so sleep starved you program like a turkey and have to try and do mundane, low risk things for much of the day. Simpler fixes, documentation, clean up technical debt in test cases etc etc. Limit tricky things for the morning after you've warmed up and keep that burst short. But this is of course from birth until n months. I'm guessing the lifestyle changes are going to have an effect that is large and the effects discussed here, while they may indeed be statistically signficant (who knows?), are going to have an effect so incredibly small by comparison that they really aren't worth considering. But that's pure prejudice on my part - we'll see if there's any data capable of rejecting that hypothesis. The changes to your sleep are huge. Now if you've had twins... Yeah.
- dfischer 7y ago
  Based on the replies, I jokingly conclude that the increase in gray and white matter during these baby phases is to handle the cognitive dysfunction of sleep deprivation. I wonder if sleep deprivation is related to raising children pre industrial era. It seems logical but I don't know much on this topic. :)
  - collyw 7y ago
    I just read Matthew Walkers book - Why We Sleep. It is probably a major factor in the changes. Just watch the first few minutes of this. https://www.ted.com/talks/matt_walker_sleep_is_your_superpower/transcript https://www.ted.com/talks/matt_walker_sleep_is_your_superpow...
- _rrnv 7y ago
  I had the opposite to the commenters above. I had the best ideas when attending to the baby, middle of the nights. I also started reading serious books (like geopolitical stuff) when my baby was falling asleep on my laps. I did some of my best and most efficient coding the first 3 months with the baby (when it was sleeping). I worked less, but better. My brain definitely shifted, I had an unparalleled motivation to do things. After 10 months it started to fade away and return to “normal”.
- nostrademons 7y ago
  I was basically useless as a programmer at 12-16 weeks. I was also basically useless at 2-4 weeks, but that was largely because of the sleep deprivation and constant need to run around doing chores. (What they don't tell new parents: newborns spend 6-7 hours/day attached to the boob and do so in shifts of about 15 minutes on + 45 minutes off, so mommy basically has a full-time job breastfeeding and daddy has a full-time job doing everything else.) I started to get some of my old coding mojo back around 8 months and at 18 months I'm IMHO better than I've ever been, but the newborn phase is basically a complete write-off. Parental leave exists for a reason.
  - ignoramous 7y ago
    > ...but the newborn phase is basically a complete write-off. Good for you. The FANG (you can guess) company I worked for stack-ranked me at the bottom of the tar pit in my write-off year with zero increase in comp, followed by another quarter of intense improvement program after which they decided I still wasn't good enough. Disagreements ensued for three more quarters and then that was that. The result... unemployment.
  - test1235 7y ago
    Books and help manuals like to tell you newborns sleep for however many hours a day, to try and make it sound easy, but like you said - newborns only sleep for small periods at a time, including at night. I spent an insane number of hours in the middle of the night bouncing on a swiss exercise ball, holding the baby, in nothing but my pants, in the dark, with the tv on (but muted), to coax the baby back to sleep. Honestly ... this sorta stuff needs to mentioned more to let prospective parents know what they're in for. Since having a child, I've nothing but total admiration for any single parent - how they manage without a fulltime partner would be beyond my ability.
- muzani 7y ago
  I always took off 3 months from work per baby. There's no point coding when you're always sleep deprived. Last year the company agreed to about half the salary, so I'd work from home on some things, or come in half the week or half a day as needed. Then again I did notice I was very good at understanding baby talk. Taking from some old notes of my 5 month old baby: "eh eh eh", but no crying at 6 AM = "I need a diaper change" or "I'm hungry" rapid kicking = excited wide open arms while lying down = "pick me up" "uh huh/mmm" with slight head inclining = yes. when mother is saying something, baby laughs, turns head towards me, "uh huh/mmm" with inclined head = "mother is right" or "I told you so" laughing and turning away = "I like that" licking lips = "I want to eat whatever you're eating" "aaaaaaaaaaa" = conversation or song long, drawn out, angry crying = "I'm tired and I don't know how to sleep"
  - philliphaydon 7y ago
    For me when my Daughter was born we did formula. And I took care of her for 4 weeks at night time. Screaming at night = “my parents are bad they aren’t feeding me they should be locked up” Kicking feet = “oh god I’m wet please change me it’s so gross”
    - falsedan 7y ago
      > “my parents are bad they aren’t feeding me they should be locked up” lol I remember this, we called it the 'worst parents in the world' cry. It continues forever, the form changes as they get older but the message is the same
  - yitchelle 7y ago
    You could extrapolate that into an app. :-) But seriously, congratulations on getting to that level of bonding with child. It was also the same for me and it is magical!
    - muzani 7y ago
      It's quite different to the first kid so I don't think the same translations work with most other kids.
- topkai22 7y ago
  I'll echo others on this thread and say at 12-16 weeks your work abilities are dominated by lack of sleep/just recovering from lack of sleep. However, I think the implication is that these changes stick around. After we finally hit our "parenting rhythm" around 6 months to a year, I did find that many of the soft skills were coming easier to me than they had before I was a parent. I found was getting better at doing presentations, reading emotions/intention, doing mentoring, and organizing others to accomplish goals, Now correlation is not causation, it could also be I was just transitioning into a more senior role anyway, and I've got a sample size of 1, but I'd like to propose a mechanism: constantly practicing my public speaking by reading "The Napping House" to a miniature tyrant who communicates only through facial expressions and screaming, is your responsibility to teach everything to including successfully eating food, and requires a logistics train on par with an Army brigade just to leave the house changed my brain and resultded in transferable skills.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  I took three months off each time. I suspect I'd have been very sub-par in a work context as like others have mentioned, the overriding change was lack of sleep. We definitely felt zombie-like for some good proportion of that time. Perhaps the extra brain matter was trying to compensate for running on empty? :) We organised with me as evening shift - so mum could get a little uninterrupted sleep, and she picked up the morning shift.
- falsedan 7y ago
  I became unbeatable at catching & resolving pages in the 'wish I was dead' hours (1am-5am) with our second. Hot tea & wrapped in a blanket trying to raise my body temperature out of the depths of the circadean rhythm downward cycle so my brain would switch from sleep to awake mode
Ancalagon 7y ago
I'm curious what the relation between child-rearing and balding might be, if any. The old-wives tale is that men needed to be evolutionarily "pushed" to settle down, and actually take care of their kids. I would think a drop in testosterone would actually have the reverse effect though, and reduce balding for those susceptible to dht.
- dogma1138 7y ago
  What does balding have to do with settling down? Women really don’t seem to care nearly as much as men do...
  - capsulecorp 7y ago
    If men care and they are the ones making the decision to settle down, then it has everything to do with it.
  - jsiepkes 7y ago
    That has not been my experience. During my dating period (about 5 years ago) I was regularly told that my full head of hair was a pre. Though there could be bias there since the ones who care obviously were more likely to seek me out.
    - rolltiide 7y ago
      My experience is that women - like men - have preconceived notions of attraction that are easily circumvented, to make you more overall attractive enough. Full head of hair is a qualifier, without it different things are needed to get yourself an in. The same logic goes for many attributes are considered qualifiers that aren't. Yes, there are some men that expend very low energy and have women seemingly flock to them. I've seen bald men in this circumstance, and full haired men in this circumstance, I would say it is a very low weighting on anything. Balding though seems to function different than bald.
senectus1 7y ago
I can still remember "feeling" the change in everyday thought process once my 1st was born. It was so noticeable... like I'd just stepped into someone else's brain. really weird.
- Dwolb 7y ago
  Are you able to elaborate?
  - senectus1 7y ago
    Its hard to do so. It felt like a mental "click" but not like you get when you have been trying to solve a puzzle... it felt like a mental " gear change ". My thought processes changed order or priority, Things that I felt were important before were suddenly less important and I think I things from a different angle (not just life stuff but problem solving approaches.). its really hard to describe. What I can say is that having a second didnt do a damned thing... lol whatever change was going to happen only happened on the first.
    - jjakque 7y ago
      Do you mean like parental instinct? When you are in 'father mode', you physically and mentally geared up and ready to take up the role.
      - senectus1 7y ago
        My first thoughts were that it was like that, but I realized after a few weeks that I was thinking like that at work as well, when nowhere near the kid.
        jjakque 7y ago
        I think you may have got better at managing both your tasks and time :) Very possible that been a father cornered you to think more pragmatically in daily life, and that translates to how you do things at work.
hawski 7y ago
I've got Tinnitus. I should have used ear plugs or rather a heavy duty hearing protection much earlier. My daughter had problems with her stomach or with us trying to put some clothes on her. The scream amplitude and frequency in a small bathroom are a horrendous combination. I joked at the time that she sounded like Nazgûl.
- war1025 7y ago
  Our youngest daughter screamed something terrible for months and months when she was a baby. There was a period of maybe two months where I thought I had permanent hearing loss from it. Went to the doctor and turned out that I had a cold as some point and the pressure in my ear never equalized back correctly, which meant the ear drum couldn't vibrate right. A couple weeks of allergy medicine seemed to fix the issue. Around that time though, I bought a pair of ear muffs and wore them every time I had to put her to bed or change her diaper. Amazing. Highly recommended.
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pricees 7y ago
I was hoping this would explain my weight gain but I suppose I have to accept that replacing daily workouts with 3 bowls of ice cream and magic shell may be the culprit.
- monster99 7y ago
  Cut out sugar, bread, and liquids with empty calories. Eat meat, fruits, and veggies -- even frozen ones. You'll drop weight very fast switching to high meat and veg, and dump the carbs/sugars. For those of you who are skinny and want to bulk up and don't mind eating somewhat bad food: Eat lots of sugary candy and junkfood like potatoe chips. I find it's the easiest way to get fat.
- sergers 7y ago
  Lack of sleep, eating what u can when u can, no time to spend on yourself/physical activities I gained 40 pounds through my wife's pregnancy and post. I am just starting to shed some weight now - 5 months old baby
  - adreamingsoul 7y ago
    My son is 10 months old. In the last month I've been able to start jogging, playing football (soccer), and I'm hoping in the next couple of weeks to restart Gymnastics and Olympic lifting training. I don't know how much weight I've put on, but I certainly don't enjoy how I feel and look now. Being able to exercise again has been a major milestone for me.
  - vidarh 7y ago
    I find lack of sleep severely impacts my ability to stick to a diet, as well, as I find it far harder to resist temptations when I'm not rested. Combining reduced willpower with reduced amount of time to make proper meals is not great.
    - dhimes 7y ago
      I also see this pattern. I've maintained at least some level of exercise throughout raising three kids, but somehow I have a strong desire to eat, and the willpower required to shed the weight is really all-consuming. When my last (of 3) goes to college next week I wonder if anything will change.
theboywho 7y ago
Has there been any studies on adopting a baby? Does it yield the same results on men? If yes, then it might as well be a matter of social construct, where a new vulnerable addition to the group needs protection for example. Another curious question, it would be interesting to see the impact of adopting a cat or a dog on men’s testosterone levels.
- isacikgoz 7y ago
  > Another curious question, it would be interesting to see the impact of adopting a cat or a dog on men’s testosterone levels. Very interesting idea though. But all of this fathering thing is related with continue one's bloodline I guess. Humans are very motivated to maintain their lineage. Adopting pets may be related with another topic.
  - tasty_freeze 7y ago
    > But all of this fathering thing is related with continue one's bloodline I guess. Can I safely assume you haven't adopted any children? I'm a parent of two adopted kids (now mostly grown). If you think what motivates me is any different than what motivates other fathers, you would be terribly mistaken. And here is my turn to speak without knowing: I imagine that if a father is too attached to the idea of the continuation of his genetic legacy, it may pressure the children to fulfill the father's idea of a legacy rather than find their own path.
- keymon-o 7y ago
  I'd guess the idea of this study is not that having a child of your own somehow directly alters your brain biologicaly, but the experience itself is just that intense. I find it much more interesting, the fact that most of the changes mother experiences might not be the "nature's wonder", but lasting, painful, traumatic and exciting experience itself that affects one's brain. Edit: And that itself has much deeper relation to a biological child than to adopting one. Not that adopting isn't significant or emotional, it's simply not that varying level of experience. > Another curious question, it would be interesting to see the impact of adopting a cat or a dog on men’s testosterone levels. I would compare this analogy to the opposite and unfortunate experience like the death of a close one. Losing someone that's biologically linked to you can be really hard even if you weren't that emotionally attached to that person. By comparing that to losing a friend outside of your family circle, which is also a very harsh experience, it seems that biological line would be an emotional line deeply attached to a person no matter what experience one has.
ijiiijji1 7y ago
0. Earplugs 1. Division-of-labor, specialization of trade... although it might not fit every feminists' "equality of outcome, share everything" political-correctness, it doesn't make combined net income much sense (or cents) to risk a $300k income with sleeplessness/low-productivity vs. an $80k one if one spouse (assuming spouse isn't a lawyer, doctor or engineer) can be at home full-time, or both as full-time parents with parental leave policies/laws or take a sabbatical. Dumping/delegating mundane tasks onto a high income earner doesn't jive with common sense. Also, automate and delegate as much minutia as possible outside to contractors and domestic workers (cooking, cleaning, construction, yard-work etc.) of one's wheelhouse to have more family, couple & work time. If you make $80-$600/hour USD, don't waste your time doing low value tasks that others could do more cheaply for you.
- endymi0n 7y ago
  Re: 1 - would you stand to the same words if the 300k income would be the woman‘s?
  - deleted 7y ago
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- mffnbs 7y ago
  This is the type of sexist, ignorant bullshit I'd expect to see on reddit. Welcome to hn
  - zenbai 7y ago
    This is worse than reddit actually. Actually his comment is what I expect a subset of HN would think. Male tech workers who value money above all else.
    - mffnbs 7y ago
      Depends on what you consider to be worse, I guess. On reddit you get many of the blatant fucks. The 4chan memers, the blatant racists, the unabashedly sexist incels. They all know who they are, what they're doing, and they practically do it for fun. On hn, you seem to have the same demographics, but they either have no idea about what they're actually saying or they're smart enough to argue that it's okay and sound like they've almost made a legitimate argument.
techie128 7y ago
I am sure the author means well. However, this makes little sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Although humans have evolved far more than most animals on this planet, the basic idea of evolutionary biology remains the same. In the wild, males have to hunt (provide food), protect the new born(s) and their mate(s) from threats. Therefore having the same level or higher levels of Testosterone is a biological imperative. Testosterone makes the male stronger and more aggressive. Both are very useful traits from an evolutionary standpoint. I cannot imagine human males diverging too much from this basic framework. Coming to today's workplace, after childbirth there is a drop in productivity of male employees as they adjust to their new reality. However, I have observed men become more diligent and aggressive at their jobs. I only imagine thats because they have a stronger sense of responsibility to provide for their partner & offspring. Whether or not Testosterone levels change is a different matter.
- endymi0n 7y ago
  I don‘t doubt the results, but I also wouldn‘t exclude a causation/correlation 101 fail. Just thinking back at my own first years with kids, the workload was so tough I neglected most testosterone producing activities (sports, action, male bonding).
- kristiandupont 7y ago
  >this makes little sense from an evolutionary standpoint I am certainly no expert on this area but it sounds to me like you are concluding that the study must be invalid, based on a bit of armchair science.
  - techie128 7y ago
    The ideas I have presented are not 'armchair science'. They're widely accepted in the field of evolutionary biology.
    - seventhtiger 7y ago
      It's not widely accepted that humans are more evolved than other animals. Whether males are the hunters or not depends on the species. In lions, the males are more concerned with territory while it is the females who hunt. The species closest to us all don't hunt. They're opportunistic omnivores.
ijiiijji1 7y ago
Random Q: I have to lose 40 lbs getting dad-bod sans dadness right now (medication side-effects). 0. Has anyone seriously looked into variations of intermittent fasting &| extended fasting? 1. Did you have brain fog after hunger went away after a few days, or less fog? 2. What about maintenance vitamins, electrolytes and preventing gallstones? 3. How long did you continue for, until hunger returned?
- btmiller 7y ago
  Most reliable method in my own experience: simply eat less. Eat your normal amount of meals, shovel it in your mouth, but stop before finishing the whole portion. I eat maybe 75% of each meals and toss the remaining bits. Do it for a couple months and watch the weight magically shed off. It works because it requires no change in meal-type habits; it’s simply fewer calories. End of the day, that’s always the goal and this way is the most direct and simple When the meals come where it’s hard to stop at 75%, I force myself to toss my napkin and utensils on the plate ensuring the food is now “dirty”. So altogether, it’s very few behavior changes make for a foolproof method.
  - bambataa 7y ago
    Can’t you just serve yourself less food rather than deliberately wasting a quarter of it?
    - DomreiRoam 7y ago
      It is quite rational but it's difficult to be rational when you're hungry; it's easier to cut on food when you have calm down your stomach. Like don't go shopping when hungry, you will buy more unhealthy food.
    - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
      If you choose to do this then using a small plate, anecdotally, can help; it still looks like you're having a plate full of food.
  - deleted 7y ago
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Kecelij 7y ago
"University in Israel suggested that the parts of the brain that light up the most are startlingly different for each parent." Startlingly? Almost like every person was different..
- chewxy 7y ago
  'each' here is bound to a specific instance of a pair of parents - i.e. "... are startling different for the mother and the father" English is not a good language
  - whenchamenia 7y ago
    This is a problem with how its written, not an entire formalized language.
MichaelMoser123 7y ago
https://nobaproject.com/modules/hormones-behavior https://nobaproject.com/modules/hormones-behavior here it says that a change in hormone levels can trigger a change in behaviour, but on the other hand it can be the result of changed behaviour. For me as a laymen it is not clear how to read all this.
DoingIsLearning 7y ago
Looking into the T drop in fatherhood, the original study seems to account for self reports of 'sleep quality' but I wonder if sleep deprivation is not still a confounder in this finding. Annedoctally as a recent father of a 6 month old, I would likely self report a good sleep quality in a questionnaire. However, objectively I know I sleep about 5 hours 30min yesterday evening, which would be sufficient sleep 'deprivation' to impact T production. Also I think parents in general will also have strong bias to not want to acknowledge their own child as a 'nuissance' in a survey/questionnaire. My key point is that it would be important to reproduce this finding with actual sleep tracking instead of self-reporting sleep quality, to confirm if this is indeed linked with a bonding/interaction mechanism with a child or an unfortunate secondary effect of sleep deprivation.
- reallydontask 7y ago
  > Annedoctally as a recent father of a 6 month old, I would likely self report a good sleep quality in a questionnaire. However, objectively I know I sleep about 5 hours 30min yesterday evening, which would be sufficient sleep 'deprivation' to impact T production. When our 9 month old started to sleep through the night (at around 4-5 months), we'd get between 5-6 hours of sleep, which after the interrupted sleep of the previous 4 months, felt like a full night's sleep but this is sleep deprivation territory, specially given the fact that it was 7 days a week. I know I could only survive on this little sleep because I wasn't exercising. > Also I think parents in general will also have strong bias to not want to acknowledge their own child as a 'nuissance' in a survey/questionnaire. I think this is one of the biggest taboos in Western society: Anything about a newborn/small child must be 100% positive This is absolute bullshit I can see the downsides of having a child without loving him (in my case) any less
  - jbverschoor 7y ago
    Thank oh for being honest. There’s actually a topic on a different forum that is exactly about the taboo’ed negative things about parenting. People refuse to see/acknowledge this, esp. women.
jl6 7y ago
Weight gain has been the most obvious impact for me, but that’s probably a consequence of a collapse in willpower/discipline as a result of sleep deprivation and stress.
lnsru 7y ago
After becoming father I experienced biggest weight loss ever. I went from 260 lbs to 200 lbs. During the months not being chained to a table with computer I was living healthy life. Lots of time outside with stroller or baby carrier, healthy food for baby and me. Few years later I am at 220 lbs again.
- gwbas1c 7y ago
  That happened with #1. Then #2 came, and the extra time getting both ready meant less time for walks, so I gained it all back!
blokeley 7y ago
Interesting article. 1. It doesn't mention obvious potential causes to brain changes and hormone levels that coincide with having children like lack of sleep, changes to diet, or adjustments to work patterns etc. 2. It says towards the end that I should continue to wrestle the boys. Great!
mirimir 7y ago
Maybe it's just my biology training, but that was obvious to me decades ago. I mean, why should humans be different from other mammals, regarding such a basic thing? It's also part of why I never wanted kids. That, and the threat of global nuclear war.
sgt101 7y ago
>2014, Dr. Pilyoung Kim, Ph.D., a developmental neuroscientist at The University of Denver, put 16 new dads into an M.R.I. machine: once between the first two to four weeks of their baby’s life, and again between 12 and 16 weeks 16 examples -> I would set more store by tealeaf reading.
- distant_hat 7y ago
  Underrated comment. Especially with a technique like fMRI.
tus88 7y ago
> Women become pregnant before they become mothers. Men become pregnant after they become fathers. I heard this joke a while ago, and while cruel seems to have an element of truth to it by observation. Lack of sleep, lack of exercise, less time to make healthy meals seems to be a terrible combination for weight gain.
- person_of_color 7y ago
  Get Soylent.
  - pyriku 7y ago
    Yeah. Perfect way to teach your kid about healthy foods and nutrition: drinking smoothies.
    - rajlego 7y ago
      I think there are much worse diets to have that your kids would learn from than soylent.
      - Majestic121 7y ago
        There probably are worse alternative, but I'd rather teach my kid to enjoy good food and see a meal as a time to socialize/relax rather than something to be optimized
    - itronitron 7y ago
      that brings a whole new meaning to preparing them for the future
- keymon-o 7y ago
  Good joke! The experience itself is different. While for women it is more shocking and exciting, men still need to handle their partner and other responsibilities during this period and pretty much share that experience which, as article suggests, alters them both in some ways.
Katzenjammer 7y ago
It is interesting that things I've noticed anecdotally have some, possible, grounds in science. It is also nice to have this to show new dads that they will adjust automatically (biologically that is) without needed to worry. Yes they need to work at bonding but their body will help them out. I also find the drop in testosterone and increase in brain matter really easy to accept. My husband changed after our first was born. Something automatic happened that changed the way he acted towards our baby than he had to other babies and it wasn't just the fact it almost killed me. Lastly, because I'm overly verbose tonight, sorry, I love that the "fun" dad stereotype actually might be the biologic usual setting. It doesnt mean dad cant be the nurturing one and mom the fun one but it does mean it should come a little more naturally for men, therefore, it is likely to happen in any father, so both roles are covered biologically. I lied. One more thought, I wonder how this would work in a same sex couple. If one woman gives birth does the other automatically take on the father role biologically? What if they take turns giving birth? Do they get to play noth roles then? What about in men? Does one take on the mom role hormonally? Would this being found to be true remove some of the objections to same sex couples parenting or does science mean nothing to the objectors?
KaiserPro 7y ago
my changes: o hair loss (Eldest's birth and early life was traumatic) o Loss of short term memory (mostly temporary, sleep loss related.) o loss of hearing (eldest was fond of screaming) o grey hair. We split child care into two shifts. I took nights, wife took days. Hence why I had less sleep than the wife.
- turk73 7y ago
  The first six months of my daughter's life were a lot like what you describe. She had "colic" (medical term for: we don't know what's wrong) and would never settle down until she started eating solid foods. After that, we were good. But those first six months, wow! I would get home from work and she would hand me our daughter and head to bed. It was like that for six months, no breaks. Anyhow she is 14 now and she's a musician and is great at math, writing, and she does great anime drawings. We also have a second child, a son, 9, and clearly the five year span between kids was not completely left to chance. I empathize with those who have true special needs children because just raising "regular" kids is traumatic.
- nradov 7y ago
  It seems unlikely that a child could scream loud enough to cause significant hearing loss.
  - rlucas 7y ago
    It’s the fact that the source of sound is often 10-20 cm from your ear. As the average source-ear distance grows though, their lung volume grows too so you end up with a looong period of dangerous sound pressure levels.
  - KaiserPro 7y ago
    Babies can scream at 120db. (supposedly 130, but I find that hard to believe) not only that its at about 3.5khz. now look at this graph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour Right in the loudness contour. children, less so, babies yes. number two is nowhere near as loud or as prone to screaming
m-i-l 7y ago
Anecdotal I know, but when my first was born and I was outside with them for the first time, I got a weird sense of extreme overprotectiveness - exaggerating somewhat to make the point, but it almost felt like I would punch anyone if they looked vaguely threateningly at my new child (a particularly memorable experience for me because I'm usually such a placid person). Not an expert, but that felt like it could be something hormonal. And at risk of sounding a bit handwavy, I think I've adapted to being a parent much better than I thought I would, which I guess could be thanks to some biological help. Also used to look a lot younger than I actually was, and now I look my age or even older, but that could simply be lack of sleep.
- CodeCube 7y ago
  same ... I'll also add that for a time, I became hyper-aware of literally any noise that happened anywhere in my house at night. Lol, I can't tell you how many times I jumped out of bed to fend off an imagined intruder, or to run into the baby's room to make sure she was still breathing :P
peteridah 7y ago
This has been a very useful thread.I have struggled with weight for many years. I have sufficient motivation to exercise and I am normally able to keep a disciplined schedule. But with our 2yr old daughter, sleeplessness has kind of messed me up and I struggle to keep any form of discipline now. It's hard. I am just glad to know that I am far from the only one :)
- randlet 7y ago
  Exercise helps a bit with weight, but the overwhelming factor in weight loss/gain is the amount of calories ingested.
- isodude 7y ago
  Have you looked at city joggers? I see people running around with those all the time here. Kids love the speed :)
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danieltillett 7y ago
No study that relies on self reporting can be trusted.
agent008t 7y ago
So, reading this thread is making me really not want to have children. Seems like one would have to be completely insane to voluntarily sign up for that. People that have children. Do you think it was honestly a good idea in retrospect, and if so, why? If your wife had been on the fence about having children, would you have preferred to go child-free, in retrospect?
- roland35 7y ago
  Having two kids myself, it has been the best thing to happen to me by far. I never really thought about having kids until my late 20's, so I can understand why people may want to go child-free. Kids are a huge investment of time and effort after all! But personally I could not imagine it any other way. Also, it is nice to have a receptive audience to dad jokes.
  - agent008t 7y ago
    So are the others in this thread exaggerating the negatives? Or is it more that those difficulties are fairly short-term, and in the longer run don't really matter / are forgotten? Say, like preparing for and sitting a difficult exam, or going to the dentist, etc.
    - seidleroni 7y ago
      As a dad myself (2.5 yr old and an almost 1 year old), the negatives do not seem to be exaggerated at all. Going to work as a software engineer is the easiest part of my day, by far. What is not always mentioned are the wonderful parts of it, which is hard to describe. Scott Hanselman wrote something where he said that having kids is 49% awful and 51% amazing, and that 1% makes all the difference, and it really hits the nail on the head. I also think its worth putting into perspective that every week it gets a tiny bit easier. I'm happy I no longer have crying babies in the house, and soon my oldest will be potty trained. It sounds cliche but it is the hardest and most rewarding thing I have ever done.
      - 7y ago
johnwheeler 7y ago
“a widespread and deeply ingrained belief among fathers: that because their bodies haven’t undergone the myriad biological changes associated with pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding, they’re not as biologically and psychologically “primed” for caretaking as women are.” I doubt that this concern is “widespread”. Sounds like the author creating unnecessary urgency for an already interesting topic.
- happytoexplain 7y ago
  Really? To me, that seems as obvious a majority thought as the more general "women are more child-oriented than men".
  - johnwheeler 7y ago
    I didn’t lactate and therefore I’m not as psyched to be a dad? I’ve never seen (nor felt) any such phenomenon.
    - Broken_Hippo 7y ago
      I'm female and have never wanted children. I never want to be pregnant. I'm 41, and have no children. But I have had folks try to make me feel like I*m doing something wrong for not wanting children - both men and women. Apprently, that's what I'm supposed to want.
anonu 7y ago
I am 14 months into kid #1. I've observed friends and family who are well into kid #2. My thought process was that going from 1 to 2 was going to follow some sort of logarithmic increase in complexity - but I am now convinced that the change is exponential. With 1, you can split the work. With 2, the dad will probably be focused on the older kid and the mom on the younger kid. Thus, there is less help to go around. Maybe at #3 there is some sort of loop-back effect where the older kid can help out with the younger siblings? Anyone with more experience care to opine?
- hising 7y ago
  I have three, they live with me every other week, since I have had kids for 13 years now it is hard to imagine how it was without them, how it was with only one or two of them. My oldest two helps taking care of my younger one sometimes. I also tend to let the younger one do more stuff earlier on than I let the other two do. On top of that, it is more or less impossible to fill 5 days with 8 hours work the weeks the kids are at my place, but age solves that, they can stay a bit longer at daycare, when they get to 8-9 they can walk home by themselves etc. Life is complex at times, but most of the time it is quite awesome. Weeks when I don't have the kids tend to be work and trying to get enough sleep to have the energy needed for a 100% week with my kids. Even if I dont do 8 hours every day the weeks I have the kids, I'd say it is more or less 100% responsibility from 6:30 AM to 11 PM.
- tkahnoski 7y ago
  Parenting style definitely changes 1 to 2, 2 to 3, after 3 it's kind of a wash. Helicopter parenting or "Tiger Mom" styles don't scale well. A colleague of mine has 7 kids. Both she and her husband work full time with white-collar jobs. If she hadn't gotten raises and promotions they likely couldn't afford the childcare costs and she would be a stay at home parent. (Cultural norm for her). I can't imagine how this would work in a blue-collar setting where work has to be done on-site. Between sick kids who can't go to school/childcare, doctor vists, dentist appointments, parent teach conferences, flexible work hours to come in late/leave early are normal things parents need to do and even more so when you start talking 3 or more kids. The loopback can happen, but it doesn't really manifest until much later. Spreading them out 2-3 years seems like the best way to scale to large families as that first two years really are all parenting unless you have teenagers in the house. (Also don't get me started on current employment laws as it relates to pregnancy and how being a mom can impact both wage and career opportunities)
gwbas1c 7y ago
Honestly, the dopamine rush that I feel when I rock my kids is stronger than a cup of coffee.
chayesfss 7y ago
Father of 5 here, during first 2 I was right there, gained a lot of weight slowly but identical twins @ 43 I am surprised there had actually been a weight drop. It has been amazingly difficult with twins, for the first 6 months it was pure hell. I didn’t really sugarcoat it when people asked, yes it’s hell, no it’s not fun. People were much more understanding of the my sour attitude with twins. Many people both get up as a sign of support but yea it’s stupid, after some time we found that taking turns getting up has allowed the other to get some sleep, surprised we didn’t get any guidance from the hospital on this subject at all while at the hospital.

323 points by cgoodmac 7y ago

"Certain areas within parts of the brain linked to attachment, nurturing, empathy and the ability to interpret and react appropriately to a baby’s behavior had more gray and white matter between 12 and 16 weeks than they did between two and four weeks." For you father-programmers out there: did you notice any changes in your programming/work abilities around the 12-16 week mark?

rangibaby 7y ago
I didn't notice any improvements work-wise, probably thanks to all the missed sleep
steve_adams_86 7y ago
I've always felt very child-focused by that point and working becomes more difficult. I've moved towards moving my work schedule around my kids rather than the other way around because I get very unhappy prioritizing work first. So, without enough time with my kids, my abilities as a programmer absolutely plummet. I wake up early and work, spend time with my toddler, then finish work while he naps and when his mom is home.
bgdnyxbjx 7y ago
The only difference I noticed was that my brain didn’t work as well due to barely sleeping for months.
mrmonkeyman 7y ago
My kid doesn't nap and sleeps very short. My productivity took a nose dive from the quite extreme sleep deprivation. Sleeping 3-4h for months is bad for your mind.
harry8 7y ago
Oh yes, and how. You're so sleep starved you program like a turkey and have to try and do mundane, low risk things for much of the day. Simpler fixes, documentation, clean up technical debt in test cases etc etc. Limit tricky things for the morning after you've warmed up and keep that burst short. But this is of course from birth until n months. I'm guessing the lifestyle changes are going to have an effect that is large and the effects discussed here, while they may indeed be statistically signficant (who knows?), are going to have an effect so incredibly small by comparison that they really aren't worth considering. But that's pure prejudice on my part - we'll see if there's any data capable of rejecting that hypothesis. The changes to your sleep are huge. Now if you've had twins... Yeah.
dfischer 7y ago
Based on the replies, I jokingly conclude that the increase in gray and white matter during these baby phases is to handle the cognitive dysfunction of sleep deprivation. I wonder if sleep deprivation is related to raising children pre industrial era. It seems logical but I don't know much on this topic. :)
- collyw 7y ago
  I just read Matthew Walkers book - Why We Sleep. It is probably a major factor in the changes. Just watch the first few minutes of this. https://www.ted.com/talks/matt_walker_sleep_is_your_superpower/transcript https://www.ted.com/talks/matt_walker_sleep_is_your_superpow...
_rrnv 7y ago
I had the opposite to the commenters above. I had the best ideas when attending to the baby, middle of the nights. I also started reading serious books (like geopolitical stuff) when my baby was falling asleep on my laps. I did some of my best and most efficient coding the first 3 months with the baby (when it was sleeping). I worked less, but better. My brain definitely shifted, I had an unparalleled motivation to do things. After 10 months it started to fade away and return to “normal”.
nostrademons 7y ago
I was basically useless as a programmer at 12-16 weeks. I was also basically useless at 2-4 weeks, but that was largely because of the sleep deprivation and constant need to run around doing chores. (What they don't tell new parents: newborns spend 6-7 hours/day attached to the boob and do so in shifts of about 15 minutes on + 45 minutes off, so mommy basically has a full-time job breastfeeding and daddy has a full-time job doing everything else.) I started to get some of my old coding mojo back around 8 months and at 18 months I'm IMHO better than I've ever been, but the newborn phase is basically a complete write-off. Parental leave exists for a reason.
- ignoramous 7y ago
  > ...but the newborn phase is basically a complete write-off. Good for you. The FANG (you can guess) company I worked for stack-ranked me at the bottom of the tar pit in my write-off year with zero increase in comp, followed by another quarter of intense improvement program after which they decided I still wasn't good enough. Disagreements ensued for three more quarters and then that was that. The result... unemployment.
- test1235 7y ago
  Books and help manuals like to tell you newborns sleep for however many hours a day, to try and make it sound easy, but like you said - newborns only sleep for small periods at a time, including at night. I spent an insane number of hours in the middle of the night bouncing on a swiss exercise ball, holding the baby, in nothing but my pants, in the dark, with the tv on (but muted), to coax the baby back to sleep. Honestly ... this sorta stuff needs to mentioned more to let prospective parents know what they're in for. Since having a child, I've nothing but total admiration for any single parent - how they manage without a fulltime partner would be beyond my ability.
muzani 7y ago
I always took off 3 months from work per baby. There's no point coding when you're always sleep deprived. Last year the company agreed to about half the salary, so I'd work from home on some things, or come in half the week or half a day as needed. Then again I did notice I was very good at understanding baby talk. Taking from some old notes of my 5 month old baby: "eh eh eh", but no crying at 6 AM = "I need a diaper change" or "I'm hungry" rapid kicking = excited wide open arms while lying down = "pick me up" "uh huh/mmm" with slight head inclining = yes. when mother is saying something, baby laughs, turns head towards me, "uh huh/mmm" with inclined head = "mother is right" or "I told you so" laughing and turning away = "I like that" licking lips = "I want to eat whatever you're eating" "aaaaaaaaaaa" = conversation or song long, drawn out, angry crying = "I'm tired and I don't know how to sleep"
- philliphaydon 7y ago
  For me when my Daughter was born we did formula. And I took care of her for 4 weeks at night time. Screaming at night = “my parents are bad they aren’t feeding me they should be locked up” Kicking feet = “oh god I’m wet please change me it’s so gross”
  - falsedan 7y ago
    > “my parents are bad they aren’t feeding me they should be locked up” lol I remember this, we called it the 'worst parents in the world' cry. It continues forever, the form changes as they get older but the message is the same
- yitchelle 7y ago
  You could extrapolate that into an app. :-) But seriously, congratulations on getting to that level of bonding with child. It was also the same for me and it is magical!
  - muzani 7y ago
    It's quite different to the first kid so I don't think the same translations work with most other kids.
topkai22 7y ago
I'll echo others on this thread and say at 12-16 weeks your work abilities are dominated by lack of sleep/just recovering from lack of sleep. However, I think the implication is that these changes stick around. After we finally hit our "parenting rhythm" around 6 months to a year, I did find that many of the soft skills were coming easier to me than they had before I was a parent. I found was getting better at doing presentations, reading emotions/intention, doing mentoring, and organizing others to accomplish goals, Now correlation is not causation, it could also be I was just transitioning into a more senior role anyway, and I've got a sample size of 1, but I'd like to propose a mechanism: constantly practicing my public speaking by reading "The Napping House" to a miniature tyrant who communicates only through facial expressions and screaming, is your responsibility to teach everything to including successfully eating food, and requires a logistics train on par with an Army brigade just to leave the house changed my brain and resultded in transferable skills.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
I took three months off each time. I suspect I'd have been very sub-par in a work context as like others have mentioned, the overriding change was lack of sleep. We definitely felt zombie-like for some good proportion of that time. Perhaps the extra brain matter was trying to compensate for running on empty? :) We organised with me as evening shift - so mum could get a little uninterrupted sleep, and she picked up the morning shift.
falsedan 7y ago
I became unbeatable at catching & resolving pages in the 'wish I was dead' hours (1am-5am) with our second. Hot tea & wrapped in a blanket trying to raise my body temperature out of the depths of the circadean rhythm downward cycle so my brain would switch from sleep to awake mode

Ancalagon 7y ago

I'm curious what the relation between child-rearing and balding might be, if any. The old-wives tale is that men needed to be evolutionarily "pushed" to settle down, and actually take care of their kids. I would think a drop in testosterone would actually have the reverse effect though, and reduce balding for those susceptible to dht.

dogma1138 7y ago
What does balding have to do with settling down? Women really don’t seem to care nearly as much as men do...
- capsulecorp 7y ago
  If men care and they are the ones making the decision to settle down, then it has everything to do with it.
- jsiepkes 7y ago
  That has not been my experience. During my dating period (about 5 years ago) I was regularly told that my full head of hair was a pre. Though there could be bias there since the ones who care obviously were more likely to seek me out.
  - rolltiide 7y ago
    My experience is that women - like men - have preconceived notions of attraction that are easily circumvented, to make you more overall attractive enough. Full head of hair is a qualifier, without it different things are needed to get yourself an in. The same logic goes for many attributes are considered qualifiers that aren't. Yes, there are some men that expend very low energy and have women seemingly flock to them. I've seen bald men in this circumstance, and full haired men in this circumstance, I would say it is a very low weighting on anything. Balding though seems to function different than bald.

senectus1 7y ago

I can still remember "feeling" the change in everyday thought process once my 1st was born. It was so noticeable... like I'd just stepped into someone else's brain. really weird.

Dwolb 7y ago
Are you able to elaborate?
- senectus1 7y ago
  Its hard to do so. It felt like a mental "click" but not like you get when you have been trying to solve a puzzle... it felt like a mental " gear change ". My thought processes changed order or priority, Things that I felt were important before were suddenly less important and I think I things from a different angle (not just life stuff but problem solving approaches.). its really hard to describe. What I can say is that having a second didnt do a damned thing... lol whatever change was going to happen only happened on the first.
  - jjakque 7y ago
    Do you mean like parental instinct? When you are in 'father mode', you physically and mentally geared up and ready to take up the role.
    - senectus1 7y ago
      My first thoughts were that it was like that, but I realized after a few weeks that I was thinking like that at work as well, when nowhere near the kid.
      - jjakque 7y ago
        I think you may have got better at managing both your tasks and time :) Very possible that been a father cornered you to think more pragmatically in daily life, and that translates to how you do things at work.

hawski 7y ago

I've got Tinnitus. I should have used ear plugs or rather a heavy duty hearing protection much earlier. My daughter had problems with her stomach or with us trying to put some clothes on her. The scream amplitude and frequency in a small bathroom are a horrendous combination. I joked at the time that she sounded like Nazgûl.

war1025 7y ago
Our youngest daughter screamed something terrible for months and months when she was a baby. There was a period of maybe two months where I thought I had permanent hearing loss from it. Went to the doctor and turned out that I had a cold as some point and the pressure in my ear never equalized back correctly, which meant the ear drum couldn't vibrate right. A couple weeks of allergy medicine seemed to fix the issue. Around that time though, I bought a pair of ear muffs and wore them every time I had to put her to bed or change her diaper. Amazing. Highly recommended.

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pricees 7y ago

I was hoping this would explain my weight gain but I suppose I have to accept that replacing daily workouts with 3 bowls of ice cream and magic shell may be the culprit.

monster99 7y ago
Cut out sugar, bread, and liquids with empty calories. Eat meat, fruits, and veggies -- even frozen ones. You'll drop weight very fast switching to high meat and veg, and dump the carbs/sugars. For those of you who are skinny and want to bulk up and don't mind eating somewhat bad food: Eat lots of sugary candy and junkfood like potatoe chips. I find it's the easiest way to get fat.
sergers 7y ago
Lack of sleep, eating what u can when u can, no time to spend on yourself/physical activities I gained 40 pounds through my wife's pregnancy and post. I am just starting to shed some weight now - 5 months old baby
- adreamingsoul 7y ago
  My son is 10 months old. In the last month I've been able to start jogging, playing football (soccer), and I'm hoping in the next couple of weeks to restart Gymnastics and Olympic lifting training. I don't know how much weight I've put on, but I certainly don't enjoy how I feel and look now. Being able to exercise again has been a major milestone for me.
- vidarh 7y ago
  I find lack of sleep severely impacts my ability to stick to a diet, as well, as I find it far harder to resist temptations when I'm not rested. Combining reduced willpower with reduced amount of time to make proper meals is not great.
  - dhimes 7y ago
    I also see this pattern. I've maintained at least some level of exercise throughout raising three kids, but somehow I have a strong desire to eat, and the willpower required to shed the weight is really all-consuming. When my last (of 3) goes to college next week I wonder if anything will change.

theboywho 7y ago

Has there been any studies on adopting a baby? Does it yield the same results on men? If yes, then it might as well be a matter of social construct, where a new vulnerable addition to the group needs protection for example. Another curious question, it would be interesting to see the impact of adopting a cat or a dog on men’s testosterone levels.

isacikgoz 7y ago
> Another curious question, it would be interesting to see the impact of adopting a cat or a dog on men’s testosterone levels. Very interesting idea though. But all of this fathering thing is related with continue one's bloodline I guess. Humans are very motivated to maintain their lineage. Adopting pets may be related with another topic.
- tasty_freeze 7y ago
  > But all of this fathering thing is related with continue one's bloodline I guess. Can I safely assume you haven't adopted any children? I'm a parent of two adopted kids (now mostly grown). If you think what motivates me is any different than what motivates other fathers, you would be terribly mistaken. And here is my turn to speak without knowing: I imagine that if a father is too attached to the idea of the continuation of his genetic legacy, it may pressure the children to fulfill the father's idea of a legacy rather than find their own path.
keymon-o 7y ago
I'd guess the idea of this study is not that having a child of your own somehow directly alters your brain biologicaly, but the experience itself is just that intense. I find it much more interesting, the fact that most of the changes mother experiences might not be the "nature's wonder", but lasting, painful, traumatic and exciting experience itself that affects one's brain. Edit: And that itself has much deeper relation to a biological child than to adopting one. Not that adopting isn't significant or emotional, it's simply not that varying level of experience. > Another curious question, it would be interesting to see the impact of adopting a cat or a dog on men’s testosterone levels. I would compare this analogy to the opposite and unfortunate experience like the death of a close one. Losing someone that's biologically linked to you can be really hard even if you weren't that emotionally attached to that person. By comparing that to losing a friend outside of your family circle, which is also a very harsh experience, it seems that biological line would be an emotional line deeply attached to a person no matter what experience one has.

ijiiijji1 7y ago

0. Earplugs 1. Division-of-labor, specialization of trade... although it might not fit every feminists' "equality of outcome, share everything" political-correctness, it doesn't make combined net income much sense (or cents) to risk a $300k income with sleeplessness/low-productivity vs. an $80k one if one spouse (assuming spouse isn't a lawyer, doctor or engineer) can be at home full-time, or both as full-time parents with parental leave policies/laws or take a sabbatical. Dumping/delegating mundane tasks onto a high income earner doesn't jive with common sense. Also, automate and delegate as much minutia as possible outside to contractors and domestic workers (cooking, cleaning, construction, yard-work etc.) of one's wheelhouse to have more family, couple & work time. If you make $80-$600/hour USD, don't waste your time doing low value tasks that others could do more cheaply for you.

endymi0n 7y ago
Re: 1 - would you stand to the same words if the 300k income would be the woman‘s?
- deleted 7y ago
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mffnbs 7y ago
This is the type of sexist, ignorant bullshit I'd expect to see on reddit. Welcome to hn
- zenbai 7y ago
  This is worse than reddit actually. Actually his comment is what I expect a subset of HN would think. Male tech workers who value money above all else.
  - mffnbs 7y ago
    Depends on what you consider to be worse, I guess. On reddit you get many of the blatant fucks. The 4chan memers, the blatant racists, the unabashedly sexist incels. They all know who they are, what they're doing, and they practically do it for fun. On hn, you seem to have the same demographics, but they either have no idea about what they're actually saying or they're smart enough to argue that it's okay and sound like they've almost made a legitimate argument.

techie128 7y ago

I am sure the author means well. However, this makes little sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Although humans have evolved far more than most animals on this planet, the basic idea of evolutionary biology remains the same. In the wild, males have to hunt (provide food), protect the new born(s) and their mate(s) from threats. Therefore having the same level or higher levels of Testosterone is a biological imperative. Testosterone makes the male stronger and more aggressive. Both are very useful traits from an evolutionary standpoint. I cannot imagine human males diverging too much from this basic framework. Coming to today's workplace, after childbirth there is a drop in productivity of male employees as they adjust to their new reality. However, I have observed men become more diligent and aggressive at their jobs. I only imagine thats because they have a stronger sense of responsibility to provide for their partner & offspring. Whether or not Testosterone levels change is a different matter.

endymi0n 7y ago
I don‘t doubt the results, but I also wouldn‘t exclude a causation/correlation 101 fail. Just thinking back at my own first years with kids, the workload was so tough I neglected most testosterone producing activities (sports, action, male bonding).
kristiandupont 7y ago
>this makes little sense from an evolutionary standpoint I am certainly no expert on this area but it sounds to me like you are concluding that the study must be invalid, based on a bit of armchair science.
- techie128 7y ago
  The ideas I have presented are not 'armchair science'. They're widely accepted in the field of evolutionary biology.
  - seventhtiger 7y ago
    It's not widely accepted that humans are more evolved than other animals. Whether males are the hunters or not depends on the species. In lions, the males are more concerned with territory while it is the females who hunt. The species closest to us all don't hunt. They're opportunistic omnivores.

ijiiijji1 7y ago

Random Q: I have to lose 40 lbs getting dad-bod sans dadness right now (medication side-effects). 0. Has anyone seriously looked into variations of intermittent fasting &| extended fasting? 1. Did you have brain fog after hunger went away after a few days, or less fog? 2. What about maintenance vitamins, electrolytes and preventing gallstones? 3. How long did you continue for, until hunger returned?

btmiller 7y ago
Most reliable method in my own experience: simply eat less. Eat your normal amount of meals, shovel it in your mouth, but stop before finishing the whole portion. I eat maybe 75% of each meals and toss the remaining bits. Do it for a couple months and watch the weight magically shed off. It works because it requires no change in meal-type habits; it’s simply fewer calories. End of the day, that’s always the goal and this way is the most direct and simple When the meals come where it’s hard to stop at 75%, I force myself to toss my napkin and utensils on the plate ensuring the food is now “dirty”. So altogether, it’s very few behavior changes make for a foolproof method.
- bambataa 7y ago
  Can’t you just serve yourself less food rather than deliberately wasting a quarter of it?
  - DomreiRoam 7y ago
    It is quite rational but it's difficult to be rational when you're hungry; it's easier to cut on food when you have calm down your stomach. Like don't go shopping when hungry, you will buy more unhealthy food.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    If you choose to do this then using a small plate, anecdotally, can help; it still looks like you're having a plate full of food.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

Kecelij 7y ago

"University in Israel suggested that the parts of the brain that light up the most are startlingly different for each parent." Startlingly? Almost like every person was different..

chewxy 7y ago
'each' here is bound to a specific instance of a pair of parents - i.e. "... are startling different for the mother and the father" English is not a good language
- whenchamenia 7y ago
  This is a problem with how its written, not an entire formalized language.

MichaelMoser123 7y ago

https://nobaproject.com/modules/hormones-behavior https://nobaproject.com/modules/hormones-behavior here it says that a change in hormone levels can trigger a change in behaviour, but on the other hand it can be the result of changed behaviour. For me as a laymen it is not clear how to read all this.

DoingIsLearning 7y ago

Looking into the T drop in fatherhood, the original study seems to account for self reports of 'sleep quality' but I wonder if sleep deprivation is not still a confounder in this finding. Annedoctally as a recent father of a 6 month old, I would likely self report a good sleep quality in a questionnaire. However, objectively I know I sleep about 5 hours 30min yesterday evening, which would be sufficient sleep 'deprivation' to impact T production. Also I think parents in general will also have strong bias to not want to acknowledge their own child as a 'nuissance' in a survey/questionnaire. My key point is that it would be important to reproduce this finding with actual sleep tracking instead of self-reporting sleep quality, to confirm if this is indeed linked with a bonding/interaction mechanism with a child or an unfortunate secondary effect of sleep deprivation.

reallydontask 7y ago
> Annedoctally as a recent father of a 6 month old, I would likely self report a good sleep quality in a questionnaire. However, objectively I know I sleep about 5 hours 30min yesterday evening, which would be sufficient sleep 'deprivation' to impact T production. When our 9 month old started to sleep through the night (at around 4-5 months), we'd get between 5-6 hours of sleep, which after the interrupted sleep of the previous 4 months, felt like a full night's sleep but this is sleep deprivation territory, specially given the fact that it was 7 days a week. I know I could only survive on this little sleep because I wasn't exercising. > Also I think parents in general will also have strong bias to not want to acknowledge their own child as a 'nuissance' in a survey/questionnaire. I think this is one of the biggest taboos in Western society: Anything about a newborn/small child must be 100% positive This is absolute bullshit I can see the downsides of having a child without loving him (in my case) any less
- jbverschoor 7y ago
  Thank oh for being honest. There’s actually a topic on a different forum that is exactly about the taboo’ed negative things about parenting. People refuse to see/acknowledge this, esp. women.

jl6 7y ago

Weight gain has been the most obvious impact for me, but that’s probably a consequence of a collapse in willpower/discipline as a result of sleep deprivation and stress.

lnsru 7y ago

After becoming father I experienced biggest weight loss ever. I went from 260 lbs to 200 lbs. During the months not being chained to a table with computer I was living healthy life. Lots of time outside with stroller or baby carrier, healthy food for baby and me. Few years later I am at 220 lbs again.

gwbas1c 7y ago
That happened with #1. Then #2 came, and the extra time getting both ready meant less time for walks, so I gained it all back!

blokeley 7y ago

Interesting article. 1. It doesn't mention obvious potential causes to brain changes and hormone levels that coincide with having children like lack of sleep, changes to diet, or adjustments to work patterns etc. 2. It says towards the end that I should continue to wrestle the boys. Great!

mirimir 7y ago

Maybe it's just my biology training, but that was obvious to me decades ago. I mean, why should humans be different from other mammals, regarding such a basic thing? It's also part of why I never wanted kids. That, and the threat of global nuclear war.

sgt101 7y ago

>2014, Dr. Pilyoung Kim, Ph.D., a developmental neuroscientist at The University of Denver, put 16 new dads into an M.R.I. machine: once between the first two to four weeks of their baby’s life, and again between 12 and 16 weeks 16 examples -> I would set more store by tealeaf reading.

distant_hat 7y ago
Underrated comment. Especially with a technique like fMRI.

tus88 7y ago

> Women become pregnant before they become mothers. Men become pregnant after they become fathers. I heard this joke a while ago, and while cruel seems to have an element of truth to it by observation. Lack of sleep, lack of exercise, less time to make healthy meals seems to be a terrible combination for weight gain.

person_of_color 7y ago
Get Soylent.
- pyriku 7y ago
  Yeah. Perfect way to teach your kid about healthy foods and nutrition: drinking smoothies.
  - rajlego 7y ago
    I think there are much worse diets to have that your kids would learn from than soylent.
    - Majestic121 7y ago
      There probably are worse alternative, but I'd rather teach my kid to enjoy good food and see a meal as a time to socialize/relax rather than something to be optimized
  - itronitron 7y ago
    that brings a whole new meaning to preparing them for the future
keymon-o 7y ago
Good joke! The experience itself is different. While for women it is more shocking and exciting, men still need to handle their partner and other responsibilities during this period and pretty much share that experience which, as article suggests, alters them both in some ways.

Katzenjammer 7y ago

It is interesting that things I've noticed anecdotally have some, possible, grounds in science. It is also nice to have this to show new dads that they will adjust automatically (biologically that is) without needed to worry. Yes they need to work at bonding but their body will help them out. I also find the drop in testosterone and increase in brain matter really easy to accept. My husband changed after our first was born. Something automatic happened that changed the way he acted towards our baby than he had to other babies and it wasn't just the fact it almost killed me. Lastly, because I'm overly verbose tonight, sorry, I love that the "fun" dad stereotype actually might be the biologic usual setting. It doesnt mean dad cant be the nurturing one and mom the fun one but it does mean it should come a little more naturally for men, therefore, it is likely to happen in any father, so both roles are covered biologically. I lied. One more thought, I wonder how this would work in a same sex couple. If one woman gives birth does the other automatically take on the father role biologically? What if they take turns giving birth? Do they get to play noth roles then? What about in men? Does one take on the mom role hormonally? Would this being found to be true remove some of the objections to same sex couples parenting or does science mean nothing to the objectors?

KaiserPro 7y ago

my changes: o hair loss (Eldest's birth and early life was traumatic) o Loss of short term memory (mostly temporary, sleep loss related.) o loss of hearing (eldest was fond of screaming) o grey hair. We split child care into two shifts. I took nights, wife took days. Hence why I had less sleep than the wife.

turk73 7y ago
The first six months of my daughter's life were a lot like what you describe. She had "colic" (medical term for: we don't know what's wrong) and would never settle down until she started eating solid foods. After that, we were good. But those first six months, wow! I would get home from work and she would hand me our daughter and head to bed. It was like that for six months, no breaks. Anyhow she is 14 now and she's a musician and is great at math, writing, and she does great anime drawings. We also have a second child, a son, 9, and clearly the five year span between kids was not completely left to chance. I empathize with those who have true special needs children because just raising "regular" kids is traumatic.
nradov 7y ago
It seems unlikely that a child could scream loud enough to cause significant hearing loss.
- rlucas 7y ago
  It’s the fact that the source of sound is often 10-20 cm from your ear. As the average source-ear distance grows though, their lung volume grows too so you end up with a looong period of dangerous sound pressure levels.
- KaiserPro 7y ago
  Babies can scream at 120db. (supposedly 130, but I find that hard to believe) not only that its at about 3.5khz. now look at this graph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour Right in the loudness contour. children, less so, babies yes. number two is nowhere near as loud or as prone to screaming

m-i-l 7y ago

Anecdotal I know, but when my first was born and I was outside with them for the first time, I got a weird sense of extreme overprotectiveness - exaggerating somewhat to make the point, but it almost felt like I would punch anyone if they looked vaguely threateningly at my new child (a particularly memorable experience for me because I'm usually such a placid person). Not an expert, but that felt like it could be something hormonal. And at risk of sounding a bit handwavy, I think I've adapted to being a parent much better than I thought I would, which I guess could be thanks to some biological help. Also used to look a lot younger than I actually was, and now I look my age or even older, but that could simply be lack of sleep.

CodeCube 7y ago
same ... I'll also add that for a time, I became hyper-aware of literally any noise that happened anywhere in my house at night. Lol, I can't tell you how many times I jumped out of bed to fend off an imagined intruder, or to run into the baby's room to make sure she was still breathing :P

peteridah 7y ago

This has been a very useful thread.I have struggled with weight for many years. I have sufficient motivation to exercise and I am normally able to keep a disciplined schedule. But with our 2yr old daughter, sleeplessness has kind of messed me up and I struggle to keep any form of discipline now. It's hard. I am just glad to know that I am far from the only one :)

randlet 7y ago
Exercise helps a bit with weight, but the overwhelming factor in weight loss/gain is the amount of calories ingested.
isodude 7y ago
Have you looked at city joggers? I see people running around with those all the time here. Kids love the speed :)

deleted 7y ago

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danieltillett 7y ago

No study that relies on self reporting can be trusted.

agent008t 7y ago

So, reading this thread is making me really not want to have children. Seems like one would have to be completely insane to voluntarily sign up for that. People that have children. Do you think it was honestly a good idea in retrospect, and if so, why? If your wife had been on the fence about having children, would you have preferred to go child-free, in retrospect?

roland35 7y ago
Having two kids myself, it has been the best thing to happen to me by far. I never really thought about having kids until my late 20's, so I can understand why people may want to go child-free. Kids are a huge investment of time and effort after all! But personally I could not imagine it any other way. Also, it is nice to have a receptive audience to dad jokes.
- agent008t 7y ago
  So are the others in this thread exaggerating the negatives? Or is it more that those difficulties are fairly short-term, and in the longer run don't really matter / are forgotten? Say, like preparing for and sitting a difficult exam, or going to the dentist, etc.
  - seidleroni 7y ago
    As a dad myself (2.5 yr old and an almost 1 year old), the negatives do not seem to be exaggerated at all. Going to work as a software engineer is the easiest part of my day, by far. What is not always mentioned are the wonderful parts of it, which is hard to describe. Scott Hanselman wrote something where he said that having kids is 49% awful and 51% amazing, and that 1% makes all the difference, and it really hits the nail on the head. I also think its worth putting into perspective that every week it gets a tiny bit easier. I'm happy I no longer have crying babies in the house, and soon my oldest will be potty trained. It sounds cliche but it is the hardest and most rewarding thing I have ever done.
    - 7y ago

johnwheeler 7y ago

“a widespread and deeply ingrained belief among fathers: that because their bodies haven’t undergone the myriad biological changes associated with pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding, they’re not as biologically and psychologically “primed” for caretaking as women are.” I doubt that this concern is “widespread”. Sounds like the author creating unnecessary urgency for an already interesting topic.

happytoexplain 7y ago
Really? To me, that seems as obvious a majority thought as the more general "women are more child-oriented than men".
- johnwheeler 7y ago
  I didn’t lactate and therefore I’m not as psyched to be a dad? I’ve never seen (nor felt) any such phenomenon.
  - Broken_Hippo 7y ago
    I'm female and have never wanted children. I never want to be pregnant. I'm 41, and have no children. But I have had folks try to make me feel like I*m doing something wrong for not wanting children - both men and women. Apprently, that's what I'm supposed to want.

anonu 7y ago

I am 14 months into kid #1. I've observed friends and family who are well into kid #2. My thought process was that going from 1 to 2 was going to follow some sort of logarithmic increase in complexity - but I am now convinced that the change is exponential. With 1, you can split the work. With 2, the dad will probably be focused on the older kid and the mom on the younger kid. Thus, there is less help to go around. Maybe at #3 there is some sort of loop-back effect where the older kid can help out with the younger siblings? Anyone with more experience care to opine?

hising 7y ago
I have three, they live with me every other week, since I have had kids for 13 years now it is hard to imagine how it was without them, how it was with only one or two of them. My oldest two helps taking care of my younger one sometimes. I also tend to let the younger one do more stuff earlier on than I let the other two do. On top of that, it is more or less impossible to fill 5 days with 8 hours work the weeks the kids are at my place, but age solves that, they can stay a bit longer at daycare, when they get to 8-9 they can walk home by themselves etc. Life is complex at times, but most of the time it is quite awesome. Weeks when I don't have the kids tend to be work and trying to get enough sleep to have the energy needed for a 100% week with my kids. Even if I dont do 8 hours every day the weeks I have the kids, I'd say it is more or less 100% responsibility from 6:30 AM to 11 PM.
tkahnoski 7y ago
Parenting style definitely changes 1 to 2, 2 to 3, after 3 it's kind of a wash. Helicopter parenting or "Tiger Mom" styles don't scale well. A colleague of mine has 7 kids. Both she and her husband work full time with white-collar jobs. If she hadn't gotten raises and promotions they likely couldn't afford the childcare costs and she would be a stay at home parent. (Cultural norm for her). I can't imagine how this would work in a blue-collar setting where work has to be done on-site. Between sick kids who can't go to school/childcare, doctor vists, dentist appointments, parent teach conferences, flexible work hours to come in late/leave early are normal things parents need to do and even more so when you start talking 3 or more kids. The loopback can happen, but it doesn't really manifest until much later. Spreading them out 2-3 years seems like the best way to scale to large families as that first two years really are all parenting unless you have teenagers in the house. (Also don't get me started on current employment laws as it relates to pregnancy and how being a mom can impact both wage and career opportunities)

gwbas1c 7y ago

Honestly, the dopamine rush that I feel when I rock my kids is stronger than a cup of coffee.

chayesfss 7y ago

Father of 5 here, during first 2 I was right there, gained a lot of weight slowly but identical twins @ 43 I am surprised there had actually been a weight drop. It has been amazingly difficult with twins, for the first 6 months it was pure hell. I didn’t really sugarcoat it when people asked, yes it’s hell, no it’s not fun. People were much more understanding of the my sour attitude with twins. Many people both get up as a sign of support but yea it’s stupid, after some time we found that taking turns getting up has allowed the other to get some sleep, surprised we didn’t get any guidance from the hospital on this subject at all while at the hospital.