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Yelp Is Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Numbers So Grubhub Can Take a Cut

• icanhasfay 7y ago
  (Serious Q) What other good alternatives are out there for Yelp?
  • bdcravens 7y ago
    Google Maps reviews are actually pretty good for many businesses.
  • dhritzkiv 7y ago
    I use Foursquare and really like it (compared to Yelp). As it's crowd-sourced, the data can be iffy (missing hours, phone numbers) in some lower density regions, but that hasn't been a huge drawback.
    • drstewart 7y ago
      Loved Foursquare, but stopped using it when it seemed all the recommendations were a few years old. Even now I go into it and most reviews/recommendations are from 2014. Shame it fell off.
  • fancyfish 7y ago
    For food, I've enjoyed Foursquare for a better signal:noise ratio in reviews. I am generally quite satisfied eating at its top-reviewed places for any given search term. Coverage of locations is almost as good as Yelp although you'll miss a few restaurants here and there (I'm in NYC). Just be sure to turn off the always-on location tracking and go through the other privacy settings. I typically cross-reference Foursquare with Google Maps reviews to make sure the overall rating is similar, since I'm a stickler like that.
  • SirLJ 7y ago
    https://www.tripadvisor.com/ https://www.tripadvisor.com/
• tjr225 7y ago
  I had to install their app to get in line at a local restaurant. Immediately uninstalled. I don't see why people use Yelp other than the fact that they have a mindshare dominance on ratings. User generated/internet 2.0 style food ratings are basically useless anyway, add in all of the other shady stuff Yelp does and you have a hard pass from me.
  • skrowl 7y ago
    I had that same experience. Google Maps is already on your phone for navigation and I've found that it's ratings & reviews to be more reliable than Yelps.
  • stri8ed 7y ago
    I use Yelp since its significantly harder to fake reviews on it than it is on Google. That, and the community culture is centered on high-quality reviews.
    • Fjolsvith 7y ago
      As a Google guide, I can flag irrelevant content in Google reviews.
      • stri8ed 7y ago
        The volume of fake reviews is simply too much, and its much cheaper to create them, than it is to combat them. A good measure of this is, compare the prices for fake reviews on both platforms, I suspect Google will be significantly cheaper. Its a tough problem to solve, no doubt, but Yelp chooses to error on the side of caution, and will sometimes flag legitimate reviews as "not recommended reviews" as a result.
      • abawany 7y ago
        I like and have used Google reviews for a while after having had enough of Yelp's issues, to the point where I removed my many reviews from Yelp. However, I think Google has a ways to go to remove junk reviews. For example, 'Baguette et Chocolat' near Austin pissed off some open-carry person, who I think also runs a gun blog, last year by asking him to leave when he ignored their state-law-compliant signs prohibiting the same. He then proceeded to command his fans to leave bad reviews for this restaurant, and they complied in droves leaving useful gems such as 'Found out the owners are hoplophobes. Never giving them my business again.' . I spent quite a bit of time reporting these and I think many others did as well. Yelp shut down review logging for this restaurant fairly quickly at the time but I am not sure Google did anything - the above "review" is still present as of today. I am disappointed with Google but have come to realize that they embody the opposite of the motto: "if a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing well." Edit: Google still allows logging reviews without comments, which further worsens the problem.
• sundayedition 7y ago
  I've found Google Maps review quality and quantity improved over the last few years so it's rare that I'd even open Yelp in recent months. With this, I'm deleting my Yelp app.
  • wil421 7y ago
    Lately I’ve noticed Google Maps had better images. Not sure if they scrape some of them but they didn’t overlap with Yelp. Google Maps reviews also tend to be more positive. The two bad things I noticed were fake guides and a few bogus sounding comments.
    • bilal4hmed 7y ago
      I've noticed Google Maps tends to have more recent reviews as well compared to yelp and newer restaurant information is updated faster.
    • shostack 7y ago
      Really wish they'd make it easy to show images of menus in restaurants. I usually use Yelp for easily viewing photos of different aspects from interior/exterior to menu, etc.
  • tfha 7y ago
    Meh. I remember we used to use Yelp to find the best restaurants in a city. It worked incredibly well. It doesn't anymore, but Google maps is not better. For example, I tried to use Google maps to find good buffalo wings in Brooklyn. But, the top suggestion didn't even have buffalo sauce on the menu! Just soy! I tend to blame SEO first and ads / paid promotion second.
    • quietbritishjim 7y ago
      If you're looking for good restaurants in a city, TripAdvisor is probably your best bet. It does have the downside of terrible location-based search though (what decent restaurants are within 50m of my current position?).
• leroy_masochist 7y ago
  I'm no lawyer, but to my layman's eyes this has class action lawsuit written all over it. Would love to hear an actual tort attorney's perspective on this.
  • kevin_b_er 7y ago
    I'm no lawyer, but I'll bet on mandatory binding arbitration and no class action stuck into the agreement.
    • leroy_masochist 7y ago
      Isn't agreement to no class action an ipso facto law violation and unenforceable in most states -- e.g., the way noncompete provisions are in California?
      • kevin_b_er 7y ago
        The other way around. The supreme court continually permits no class action in agreements split right down political lines.
        • leroy_masochist 7y ago
          I learn new things on HN every day!
  • briandear 7y ago
    Very hard to prove damages. You would have to prove the calls that you didn’t receive and sales that didn’t happen. There also isn’t any particular “wrong” that has happened unless the restaurant paid money to have a listing and in the terms of that listing there was a clause that required GrubHub not be used. But essentially, paying for Yelp is paying for the service of lead generation which seems to be the exact service Yelp provides. That being said, I detest Yelp.
    • JoeAltmaier 7y ago
• kevin_b_er 7y ago
  Amazing. Yelp redirects the customer who intended to look up their number in Yelp, redirects them GrubHub. GrubHub then grifts the restaurant for it. These online order companies are grifters. With tricks and sneaky fees, they exploit the restaurants, they exploit the customers, and if delivery is involved, they'll exploit the driver too.
  • asdff 7y ago
    I wonder what the solution is? Restaurants really should be running their own delivery, but that means hiring more staff which many cannot afford to do in a major city where commercial rents are extraordinary.
    • Skunkleton 7y ago
      The solution is to enforce business transparency, and fair labor laws. It should be clear on the Yelp UI that they number they give me is for grubhub. If I want food delivered, it should be by drivers who are fairly compensated.
    • ssalazar 7y ago
      Sustainable business models? Popping the VC bubble that insists these companies employ parasitic business practices to prop up their massive valuations?
  • RandallBrown 7y ago
    Grubhub isn't grifting anyone. These restaurants have to sign up with Grubhub for the phone referral to do anything. It works both ways though. Restaurants will regularly put up menu items with titles like "Call in for discount for free delivery" or something like that so they can subvert the Grubhub fees while still getting the Grubhub traffic.
    • Shakahs 7y ago
      Grubhubs phone referral system is broken because they count any call longer than 45 seconds as a phone order. When their algorithm determines that a wrong number call will cost the restaurant $8 that is not okay.
• kadabra9 7y ago
  Yelp is such a slimy company. First they wall off their mobile web reviews to try to force you to download their POS app, they have the whole extortion racket going trying to strongarm restaurants into paying for advertising, and now this. Friendly reminder - if you are on mobile and trying to read a Yelp review and don't want to download their app, simply hold refresh, click "request desktop site" and it will load the full review without forcing you to get the app.
  • ilikehurdles 7y ago
    https://www.yelp-support.com/article/Does-Yelp-extort-small-businesses?l=en_US https://www.yelp-support.com/article/Does-Yelp-extort-small-... I've kind of gotten tired of diving into the whole "yelp extorted my brother's cousin's friend's coworker's business for better ratings" anecdotal story schtick so I'm just going to link the above -- or are you suggesting they're getting away with lying on official communication? If yelp is altering reviews for paying clients, please show the evidence as I have yet to see anything but anecdotal stories about some folks getting a phone call from someone allegedly from yelp allegedly having the power to do this. I suspect, at worst, that they either misunderstood the sales pitch or were contacted by a scummy SEO-like company. On the mobile experience, what are you referring to? The mobile site is fully functional with reviews, search, ratings, etc. I can't say the same of Twitter, Tumblr, and most major other sites. I despise mobile apps as much as the next person but I hardly see how Yelp is unique or even worse than others here. Please clarify. You literally do not need the mobile app or even render the desktop site to read full reviews. I'm looking at a fully expanded review in mobile safari right now.
    • master-litty 7y ago
      Fascinating. I totally fell for the drama and didn't realize it. Thanks for posting that link. A good reminder to be critical about what you hear.
      • elliekelly 7y ago
        I don't use Yelp so my opinions are both irrelevant and formed entirely by what I've heard from others. I'm not sure I believe Yelp hides/shows reviews based on whether businesses are willing to pay but I'm not sure I put too much weight in the above posted link either. If Yelp's review algorithm has nothing to do with advertising spend then it should be fairly easy to have someone from PwC/Deloitte/E&Y look at the algorithm and issue a letter saying advertising spend isn't a factor. I'd give a lot more weight to a third-party review than I do the Buzzfeed article (not Buzzfeed News) and academic study on the ethics and incentives behind review fraud that Yelp has cited.
• MentallyRetired 7y ago
  It's hard to make money as a directory service with Google and Apple Maps around. The shadier they get, the bigger of a sign it is that they're in trouble financially, I would think.
  • wodenokoto 7y ago
    They are the directory service for apple maps, at least where I live
    • whatshisface 7y ago
      Maybe Apple will pressure them to be less shady then.
      • nacs 7y ago
        They'll likely just completely replace them with an in-house solution. Yelp in Apple Maps is probably just a temporary solution
        • gamblor956 7y ago
          cough antitrust violations are not a good thing to attempt when you're already under investigation for antitrust abuses in multiple jurisdictions.
          • sib 7y ago
            Antitrust regulations would certainly not be achieving the goal of reducing customer harm if they were to _prevent_ Apple from delivering a better, less-slimy solution to replace Yelp.
      • SllX 7y ago
        Would have happened by now if they were going to. Yelp was integrated into Apple Maps from day one and Siri before that. If anything, Yelp has gotten slimier since then.
• beart 7y ago
  Is there a way to turn off the Yelp integration when using DuckDuckGo?
• s17n 7y ago
  Yelp should obviously have just been upfront that they were going to be taking commissions, the fact that they weren't strikes me as symptomatic of a dysfunctional org (that failed to actually align on this decision but pushed it out anyway in a shady way).
  • ViViDboarder 7y ago
    Grubhub is taking the commission from the restaurant in this case.
    • scottydelta 7y ago
      and Yelp from Grubhub.
• shkkmo 7y ago
  > “There's a button where you could hit play and so I was like, what is this?” he said. “I hit play, and the first call was me on the phone, which freaked me out because I didn't know I was being recorded.” So is grubhub providing a notification to the restaurant that they are being recorded in two party-consent states? And is it possible to get on the grubhub platform without agreeing to pay the marketing commission for phonecalls?
• tyingq 7y ago
  This seems perfect for a class action suit.
• potench 7y ago
  My favorite sushi-restaurant SugarFish was originally a take-away-sushi shop, the sushi is very high quality and somewhat inexpensive for the quality ($40 a meal). Also dine-in lines are consistently super long (they don’t take reservations), so I like to order pick-up / take-out. Except, now they force you to order take-out through Postmates which charges a large 15% fee and a flat service-charge (that I don’t recall but will update here when sugar fish opens). Sucks because I love the restaurant but really don’t appreciate paying Postmates fees when I’m picking it up myself. When you call in an order they auto-direct you to Postmates.
  • ebg13 7y ago
    > inexpensive ... ($40 a meal) What a wonderful world we live in.
    • potench 7y ago
      You misquoted that. Sushi is expensive, the point is it’s all relative and I think for the quality it’s typically more in the range of $60 a meal. Very expensive compared to other meals sure, but a good value for the quality of sushi.
    • dx87 7y ago
      Inexpensive for the quality.
• manishsharan 7y ago
  How do you use Yelp when you know that a business can bribe Yelp with advertizing and they will suppress negative reviews? and vice versa -- if a business refuses to advertise, they will suppress positive reviews .
• astura 7y ago
  IDK... a referral fee on a phone order just seems absurd.
• dangjc 7y ago
  Are there alternatives to Yelp? Are people using Foursquare or Google Maps?
  • jillesvangurp 7y ago
    Pretty much. I've never used Yelp nuch. I guess they never focused much on the world outside the US. I just checked my area in Berlin (which has loads of really nice places) and they have almost nothing for this area which means their data for Berlin is 95% incomplete. For reference, several of the top places for Berlin on Foursquare are in the same area. Yelp seems to have none of those. From working on POI data in Nokia Maps back in the day, I remember that this is a tough market. A lot of sites from back in the day no longer exist. Yelp apparently bought qype at some point which used to have pretty decent coverage. I actually worked with their data at Nokia so I know. It seems all of that is missing in action in Berlin (where they used to have most restaurants covered). I guess that was more of an acquihire/competetitor eliminating move. Either way, their data was pretty bad as I recall but not this bad. Google Maps typically has most places, even the really obscure/shitty ones. Foursquare is a bit less predictable depending on how many users they have locally but it's typically great in popular areas. Both have invested in great user feedback mechanisms to improve the accuracy of their data. E.g. knowing when a new place opens and an old one disappears or changes name is key. Between those two, you get a decent impression what is good in an area. The reviews in Google Maps are usually pretty helpful and I see little evidence of cheating (though that obviously happens). I guess what happened is that Yelp used to be a cool hop user driven review website and then VC money took over and now the users are the product that they sell to their customers the restaurants.
• amluto 7y ago
  Some of the practices in the article sound criminal. Grubhub appears to be recording conversations to which they are not a party as far as either the customer or the restaurant knows. The message they play does not sound like a notification that GrubHub is recording the call. I am not a lawyer, but I bet this is an illegal wiretap in at least one state.
• SnowingXIV 7y ago
  Yelp is terrible to work with. From my personal experience they've crossed over into spam territory. They will call, email, leave lengthy voicemails (with rather extortionist language), non-stop trying to get you to pay for their premium services. Really slimy. I'm not one to advocate for big G but hoping them or Apple makes them irrelevant.
• blue11 7y ago
  Streeteasy started employing the same dark pattern a few months ago. It seems like companies who have an effective monopoly just cannot resist the temptation. They replaced the listing agent's number with a number that takes you to one of their agents. (After a while they added back the option to contact the actual listing agent, but you have to first click on a link to get to another page.) Also, as soon as I contact an agent about a listing their agents start spamming me with texts and emails written in a way that try to obscure that they are not the ones who have the listing. At this point I never contact an agent through the Streeteasy platform. I just google the agent's name to find their contact info.
• elliekelly 7y ago
  I'm curious whether Yelp is only doing this in states without two-party consent to record. In the article the author (Yelp user/restaurant customer) is told the line is recorded before being connected through but the restaurant employee on the other end appears completely unaware. I would guess there are at least a few Attorneys General who would take issue with this approach. It's not even close to the shadiest part of Yelp's business but it's one that at least some businesses could work together and push back on without running afoul of the binding arbitration/class action prohibition in Yelp's ToS.
  • ViViDboarder 7y ago
    The article states that Grubhub is recording the calls.
    • elliekelly 7y ago
      ... yes. In states that require two-party consent to record a conversation (CA & MA, for example) Grubhub can't record a call without telling _everyone_ on the call it's being recorded. The article opens with a story of the author having a conversation with a restaurant employee who's clearly unaware of the recording.
• emeraldd 7y ago
  (IANAL) I smell a class action lawsuit coming, especially if this is being done without the knowledge or consent of the restaurants in question.
• duxup 7y ago
  Grubhub's process of creating fake websites that compete with the restaurant's official site so that they can take a cut of any direct orders is so scummy. I refuse to have anything to do with either company. I care about my local restaurants, not slimy practices like that.
• habosa 7y ago
  Yelp 5 years ago was a truly valuable service. You could go anywhere (in America) and find good food. Then they lost focus. The app has not improved an ounce since then (seriously why is 'open now' not a default filter) and they've spent a lot of time doing shady things or complaining about other companies. They've tried to get into reservations, delivery, and non-food services but with half-assed attempts at each. They also did a really bad job at maintaining a healthy reviewer community (Google has done much better). It's a shame because I don't think any other app took the lead here. Yelp just walked backwards into the pack.
  • alephnan 7y ago
    It incorporated elements of delight, too, like a rocket ship that showed when you scrolled the page. I feel these lighthearted things are symptomatic of a product-driven culture, or at least a culture that empowered engineers to add Easter eggs. Now that its sales driven, I’m not sure that jives well with recruiting engineering talent.
    • rkho 7y ago
      I remember they added the "has Pokestop" tag when Pokemon Go first released. Was a fun addition.
  • gnicholas 7y ago
    > seriously why is 'open now' not a default filter What app are you using? It’s a default filter for me on iOS, and I’m likely not running the latest version. It’s actually a one-tap filter (button) that appears on every results page. I remember it behaving this way for at least a year or two, and I don’t frequently update my apps.
• bdcravens 7y ago
  I remember a few years ago when Yelp testified before Congress about how unfair mean ole Google was. https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11-9-21StoppelmanTestimony.pdf https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11-9-21Stoppe...
• Balgair 7y ago
  >“I definitely implore people to forgo the three seconds of convenience to help neighborhood businesses,” he said. Interesting way to end the article. I think we have all seen lines around the block for the new hotness in local resturants. If the owner is trying to get people in the door like this, then it is likely that these apps are not the culprit in the issues that the owner is facing. In the article, grubhub points out a business that they helped out by pointing the business to switch to poke' bowls. There are some interesting points about that: 1) Per my reading, they only can point out one example. I did not see any stats or talk about a population, just an anecdote. I may have missed something though, or the writer decided to not use that sound bite. 2) That is consulting. They are mixing referral fees and trying to point out that they are sucessful un-solicited consultants too. This is not initially murky stuff, but it can get mixed up really fast. The incentives are not well aligned.
  • 3JPLW 7y ago
    How does your anecdote of dining at a hot new restaurant refute the challenges restaurants are facing with GrubHub's fees getting tacked onto typical phone-in orders?
    • Balgair 7y ago
      Sorry about that, I should have probably broken that up into two comments. Thanks!
• alistairSH 7y ago
  What value does Yelp provide to end users? I've tried it in the past, but it never feels like I get any value. A simple Google search (not Maps, just search the usual way) works just as well, if not better.
• awwstn 7y ago
  Someone should build a product for restaurants that receives the call, terminates it, and immediately calls the customer back directly. If you can quietly get a critical mass of restaurants onto it, then Yelp wouldn't be able to punish those restaurants.
• troydavis 7y ago
  Developers who have been asked to implement a UX dark pattern like this one (or Yelp’s decision to forcibly open the App Store without warning in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20625852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20625852), did you implement it? Why or why not? I can’t imagine a case where I would be skilled enough to obtain employment at Yelp, and thus at other companies too, and yet would agree to implement something particularly slimy instead of quitting. Obviously some people make different decisions, though. If you worked at a well-known company when they implemented an intentionally deceptive darkpattern, perhaps others can learn from your experience.
  • nrmitchi 7y ago
    While I haven't implemented anything like this, and have pushed back when I've seen dark patterns like this before, it's not hard to imagine a situation where someone would feel like they have to. It's a fairly privileged position to be able to just up and quit. Even in the bay area where you can in theory get another job fairly quickly, not everyone has enough savings to bridge a gap, and health insurance I'm sure could play a part. Not even mentioning what I'm sure is the most common reason of all: predatory visa statuses that are tied to an employer. Ie, you quit, you have to leave the country "immediately". Edit to add: Perhaps this is just another reason why having high skilled visas and work statuses tied to a specific employer is not the right answer.
    • mikeash 7y ago
      It’s also not hard to imagine a situation where developers happily implement it. Developers can get invested in their employer and rationalize their decisions just like anyone else. Management will provide plenty of help in doing so. I’m sure there are some who say, “this sucks but I can’t afford to say no.” But I bet there are a lot more who say, “cool, this will help us make money.” Developers aren’t uniquely virtuous.
  • matz1 7y ago
    Everyone has different value, I happily design and implement "dark" pattern if needed, to me its just pattern.
• mabbo 7y ago
  It feels as though much of tech has gone from helping people accomplish their goals efficiently to a business model of extracting rents while providing no or little value. In this example, what benefit is GrubHub providing to anyone? The person used Yelp solely to look up the phone number of a restaurant. GrubHub deserves 15% of his order for that? Why, because they made a deal to give X% of it to Yelp, and convinced the restaurant this was a good deal? What value did they provide here? Meanwgile, Yelp used to be a resource to find good businesses. Now it's... Something else. It's leveraging it's market power to make money rather providing customers with any value. I don't know what the answer is but it feels like society needs to come up with a new word, new idea, (or probably an old one we've forgotten) and make it both an ethically bad thing and then also an illegal one (or at least one that is taxed higher).
  • dymk 7y ago
    If somebody is willing to pay the GrubHub fee, then they’re worth it. Really basic supply and demand, even if you personally don’t find the service useful. Yelp is still my go-to as an index of nearby restaurants and bars.
    • pszndr 7y ago
      > If somebody is willing to pay the GrubHub fee, then they’re worth it That's why they're tacking it on without warning > Yelp Is Sneakily Replacing Restaurants’ Phone Number So Grubhub Can Take a Cut
    • deogeo 7y ago
      They're worth it only because without paying them protection money, your restaurant gets no visibility due to overcrowded marketing by other restaurants that do use GrubHub. Without them, or without Yelp, some other yellow-pages equivalent would be used, and the same total number of orders would be placed. They are literally parasites.
      • dymk 7y ago
        Sounds like they provide a search/aggregation service that many users find useful.
• mikestew 7y ago
  I've been in this industry 30-some years. I thought I'd seen the worst SV has to offer, but my jaw is just on the ground. I mean, I knew Yelp was constantly up to no good, but...just wow. I suppose I should be furious at Yelp (or GrubHub, or...someone), but I'm really more furious at Apple for having not cut that partnership a long time ago. It just gets my goat every time I click an icon in Apple Maps, Yelp pops up, and there's no way to change data sources. And now this? I'm normally not one for a strongly-worded letter, but I might fire off some feedback on this one.
  • m463 7y ago
    Does anyone remember getting out the phonebook to dial a local tow truck?
    • reilly3000 7y ago
      Tow truck companies and PI lawyers routinely paid $5k/mo+ even in small markets to get those calls from yellowpages ads.
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• fucking_tragedy 7y ago
  In my area, Slice bought domains containing local pizzerias' names. Slice then set up the domains with sites branded with the local businesses' branding and replaced the phone numbers and online ordering with Slice's. Turns out Slice was able to beat those businesses at the SEO game and now those fake sites are the first results when looking for local pizzerias' contact info.
  • rkho 7y ago
    This is the exact game that OrderAhead played a few years ago: https://www.geekwire.com/2015/orderahead-restaurant-website-deception-includes-widespread-violations-of-google-terms-of-service/ https://www.geekwire.com/2015/orderahead-restaurant-website-... I'm curious what local pizzerias think about this
• tempsy 7y ago
  Makes me think really hard about tech’s blind adoration for the “PayPal mafia.” I find myself seeing more instances of soul crushing amoral behavior from this group of entrepreneurs than just about any other group.
  • TremendousJudge 7y ago
    the ones on "tech" that profess blind adoration towards these people are the ones that are in it for the profits
    • TAForObvReasons 7y ago
      Elon Musk is one of the paypal mafia, but it seems that many people who aren't "in it for the profits" profess blind adoration
      • navigatesol 7y ago
        I can't tell if you're saying he's a good or bad example. But Musk has managed to get himself wealthy from many businesses that mostly burn capital, including the biggest CEO pay package in history. He may be the ultimate example of the PayPal Mafia.
        • TAForObvReasons 7y ago
          Criticism of Musk or the operation of any of his companies (such as the arguably nepotic acquisition of SolarCity) are generally downvoted to oblivion here, and it's hard to tell if everyone is an investor or just blindly support him. Actually surprised that my comment managed to get upvoted back, it was -3 within a few minutes of posting the comment.
    • siruncledrew 7y ago
      I'll caveat with saying not all entrepreneurs are this way, but the 'entrebroneurs' are the ones allured to the douchebag persona of being a "Russ Hanneman" type of founder.
• dreamcompiler 7y ago
  I think it's high time for a full-blown FTC investigation into Yelp for restraint of trade, consumer fraud, false advertising, and whatever else the FTC can think of. These parasites have outlived their usefulness. Failing that, a high-profile class-action lawsuit might get their attention.
• toss1 7y ago
  With Yelp around, I'm genuinely glad to not be in a retail or restaurant business. They are the digital equivalent of "nice shop you got there, it's be a real shame if anyone broke the window, for just a small payment, we can protect you..." As a potential user, considering how they actively "manage" the reviews, I simply do not trust them. I find far better information elsewhere.
• jammygit 7y ago
  I’ve been avoiding yelp, but it’s pretty easy to forget why until something like this is posted. Gross
• fortran77 7y ago
  Considering that you can't opt out of a Yelp listing, I think they've crossed a line here. They're basically putting up misleading directory pages for real businesses that intentionally have wrong information. I hope someone can successfully argue that willfully spreading misleading information about someone else's business is wrong and actionable.
• flibble 7y ago
  The “we bring you new customers” pitch that food portals is incredibly deceitful. Portals didn’t arrive on the scene with millions of customers to send to restaurants. They arrived with zero and siphoned them away using these dirty tricks (mini sites pretending to be made by the restaurant, phone numbers owned by the portals, requiring the portal stickers on the restaurants’ windows). This blog post shows what happens when restaurants decide to leave portals: https://www.flipdish.com/ie/the-effects-of-leaving-costly-food-portals/ https://www.flipdish.com/ie/the-effects-of-leaving-costly-fo...
• spiznnx 7y ago
  Last month, Grubhub hijacked restaurants web traffic by buying similar domains for the same reason, so this isn't too surprising for them: https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/28/19154220/grubhub-seamless-fake-restaurant-domain-names-commission-fees https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/28/19154220/grubhub-seamless... I assume Grubhub's Eat24 acquisition from Yelp came with some poorly written contract clause that allows them to force Yelp to implement this absurd feature as part of their "ordering partner integration", but maybe Yelp is unethical AND stupid after all and is doing it for part of the take. We'll probably never know. Either way their reputation will be ruined. Disclosure: I interned at Yelp engineering and enjoyed it. The engineers were all nice people with as much integrity as one would hope.
• bytematic 7y ago
  Lots of sites replace emails and telephone numbers, this is essentially twilios whole service. They can record phone calls and read all emails back and forth. Mostly just to do analysis and maybe increase the quality of responses
• myrandomcomment 7y ago
  My local handyman (he is a real engineering, just does this after getting out of working a corporate job) that is booked months in advance told me a story. He was listed on Yelp with perfect reviews. One day Yelp called him and ask him about some paid for service to improve his listing. He said no thanks. A few days later he when from showing up in the top of the search to near the bottom. He is a great guy and does fantastic work. I was done with Yelp from that point.
• stretchwithme 7y ago
  Isn't the restaurant business already hard enough without being charged $8 to answer a customer's question. Well, I guess restaurants can end their relationship with Yelp and customers can stop using Yelp too.
• oneepic 7y ago
  Would any Yelpers here care to comment on the issue? I interviewed there in the past, and know friends that work there. When I asked what they thought about the "blackmail" rumors from a while back they just laughed it off, because they honestly thought they were just rumors. And they enjoyed their work, and their work-life balance, and all that. Sounded like a fun, positive place to work, if you ignored the headlines. So there's a disconnect here. Is there a dark pattern and slimy business going on in Yelp, or is this simply a weird situation that got sensationalized by a news article? I'm hesitant to make any assumptions.
  • stevejohnson 7y ago
    I am a former Yelp engineer. I think the thing this story describes is dumb and bad and they should stop doing it. Inserting yourself as a useless middleman is a classic shitty startup move. Here are some great reasons for current and former Yelp engineers not to engage in internet debates about accusations of nefariousness in other areas such as the review filter or sorting algorithm: 1. Being in internet debates mostly sucks in general, especially with people who by default hate you. 2. Yelp has a blanket policy that you shouldn't engage in these debates. 3. Yelp has been sued some number of times and might be again. I would be paranoid that something I said here would be used in another bullshit lawsuit, especially if I were truly in a position to know things. 4. It's pretty clear that the PR battle was lost long ago, regardless of the truth. Leaving a comment on a thread like this changes literally nothing and is a waste of time. Yes, that means I think I'm wasting my time right now. :-) Every Yelp engineer I've met has intentions at least as good as, say, the average Google engineer. Sites like Yelp can have negative effects on small businesses the same way e.g. Spotify might have an effect on independent music or Airbnb has an effect on the apartment rental market in a city, and engineers aren't always good at recognizing those effects as problematic, but Yelp engineers are certainly no worse than your standard Silicon Valley type. I still trust Yelp reviews more than I trust local business reviews on any other platform.
• musicale 7y ago
  I didn't realize Grubhub was such a sleazy company.
• eveningcoffee 7y ago
  Looks like a fraud to me.
• obliviousonions 7y ago
  Does anyone know of a good alternative to implement a waitlist for restaurants that inst yelp? Plenty of small restaurants use it because it's easy and texts customers about their position in line. https://www.yelp.nowait.com/f https://www.yelp.nowait.com/f
• deleted 7y ago
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• makecheck 7y ago
  Funneling things through the app is just unhelpful on many levels. The interface when clicking on a web page from Yelp is worse than using the browser directly; therefore, instead of tapping, I read the web address and just go type it out. And don’t even get me started on E-mail/communication with businesses. Recently I tried contacting a contractor, and happened to start the request from a form in the Yelp app. Since the very first thing on the form was asking for my E-mail address, I logically assumed that I would receive an E-mail reply. Instead, nothing; after awhile, I assumed just needed to find somebody else. Then, days later (or whenever I wandered into the Yelp app again), and only after I just happened to tap on some stupid icon in the corner, I finally see a reply: in the app. That is utterly useless! In fact, all of these “E-mail look-alike” interfaces are useless: I don’t need your company to completely recreate your own in-box interface that will surely suck in some way, when you could have just allowed E-mail to be used. Heaven forbid I dare to communicate with someone without your knowledge. So, yet again, like with URLs, now I just dig up the web site manually, dig up a real E-mail address or phone number manually, and contact them manually.
• heyflyguy 7y ago
  Yelp is bad. Doordash is a close second.
• phs318u 7y ago
  Thanks for the heads up. Time to uninstall the Yelp app.
• DiabloD3 7y ago
  Isn't Yelp essentially committing fraud by colluding with GrubHub to impersonate business entities?
• rhacker 7y ago
  I've never used grubhub, but this is shady. In a rush I once had to find and call a hotel and get a reservation. The site I used looked like a typical priceline or whatever- looked legit. Instead of providing the phone number of the hotel front desk, it sent me to some shady hotel booking service. I was tired and probably not thinking straight - but they took my card and the room was booked. After arriving at the hotel I indeed had a reservation, that was nice. What wasn't nice was that it wasn't paid for. I had no idea who I called, and it was super late so I had no options. If I wasn't in a gigantic stressful situation at the time I would have done more to figure out what happened. Not saying that grubhub or yelp is THAT shady, but that kind of business practice is.
• abalone 7y ago
  Fun fact: this is not the first time Yelp has done this. I recall over ten years ago they tried exactly this feature as a way to monetize listing phone numbers as part of premium business listings, or something like that. They would charge for phone calls like ad clickthrus. An interesting technical detail: they made the phone numbers gifs so they wouldn’t be indexed by search engines. I could be misremembering details and I can’t find anything online, but I’m pretty sure this happened.
• mxd3 7y ago
  Yelp is now in free for all mode and monetizing whatever they can. They forced a bad ZocDoc integration, which was an absolute nightmare, and broke our Yelp pages overnight. Not surprised at all to see this.
• deleted 7y ago
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