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How to Find Hidden Cameras in Your Airbnb

361 points by greencore 7y ago

dsl 7y ago
If you are concerned about cameras in Airbnbs, consider picking up a camera detector off Amazon for ~$30. They are basically a ring of super bright LEDs with a colored lens in the middle you put up to your eye and scan around the room. The light reflects off the curved glass of the lens and the filter helps you see it. The less effective but impromptu version of this is just holding a super bright flashlight between your eyes (facing out), but you kinda need to have to done it before to know what to look for.
- miguelmota 7y ago
  Can you share a link of one that you recommend?
  - dsl 7y ago
    If you search Amazon for "camera detector" there are multiple vendors selling one that has the form factor of a Zippo lighter. This is the professional version (~$1500), for comparison: https://www.selcomsecurity.com/en/products/data-leakage-channels-detection/item/436-hidden-camera-detector-optic-2 https://www.selcomsecurity.com/en/products/data-leakage-chan...
- amelius 7y ago
  Would it detect a pinhole camera?
- kurthr 7y ago
  These work if the camera manufacturer really doesn't care and puts the lens on the outside. However, if they do care and put a circular polarizer with an anti-reflective film on top... like your OLED phone has, then that will cut the reflection >100x. You probably won't see them and they'll only lose 50% of the light.
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    Would polarized sunglasses work in that case then? I regularly get a shimmer from any LCD or OLED phone when on the town
    - kurthr 7y ago
      No, unfortunately circular polarizers kill any specular reflection that goes in. To do them you need a wide spectrum 45 deg phase delay film on top of the polarizer. You can buy the circular polarizer film, but note that it has a front/back (it's not symmetric). Another confusing attack is to put a camera behind a much larger half-slivered mirror... that does the job too because everything reflects... add a circular polarizer to that :^\
- lnsru 7y ago
  Could this be improved creating an app for smartphones? They have light source and camera with zoom, so suspicious reflections can be identified for manual inspection later. Probably integrated WiFi scanner also doable. Is there market for this?
  - noir_lord 7y ago
    With the accelermoter you could pan the room and then afterwards use that to create an AR overlay to direct you at oddities.
  - Cthulhu_ 7y ago
    There was a video clip the other day showing just this - it was basically a plastic sheet / filter you could hold over your phone's camera and flashlight that made camera lenses stand out.
  - dsl 7y ago
    Not really. White light doesn't work as well as flashing red and green.
- pvaldes 7y ago
  So if you really want to hide a pinhole camera. Meow... https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32731641924.html https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32731641924.html Looks like an arms race easy to win.
  - Tade0 7y ago
    To that I raise you this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_junction_detector https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_junction_detector Expensive, but surely there's someone providing such a service nearby?
    - userbinator 7y ago
      That will basically pick up every piece of electronic equipment in the room. Given that cameras can be hidden in them too, and that you'd have to take apart each one to be sure, I don't think a NLJD will tell you much. They were developed at a time when electronic equipment was far less common, so the presence of electronics was more suspicious; now, you can come across things like deeply embedded RFID tags (only used for inventory tracking) in otherwise completely non-electronic products.
      - dsl 7y ago
        You are correct, they pick up a lot. But depending on the type of engagement, you just end up taking apart every single thing with a circuit in it anyway. There are defeats for nonlinear detectors, like a three port circulator with a resistor. In turn there are more advanced detection methods, but now you are getting in to tools not publicly available.
- kitd 7y ago
  IIRC, most smartphone cameras can clearly detect IR, so another option is to wait til dusk, or darken the room, then scan it through your smartphone camera looking for pinpoints of light that show the IR bulb. Ofc, doesn't work with cameras that don't have IR.
  - m-p-3 7y ago
    Most smartphones have an IR filter on the back camera, but don't on the front camera. A good way to test that is by using an old-fashioned TV remote with an IR emitter and look for it to glow when pressing a button. It's a good way to test the batteries too!
wumms 7y ago
Google cache: (couldn't find it on archive.org): http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fisc.sans.edu%2Fdiary%2FHow%2Bto%2BFind%2BHidden%2BCameras%2Bin%2Byour%2BAirBNB%2F24834 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps...
JacKTrocinskI 7y ago
Or just go to a hotel! I have a condo in a building where most of the units are listed on Airbnb or Booking.com, quality of life for residents like me has been drastically reduced by noisy tourists that come for a weekend trip and have no regard for keeping it quiet or keeping the shared spaces clean. I hope more cities begin to ban Airbnb. Tourists belong in hotels not in buildings where families try to live their daily lives and have to go to work. I've had to call the police on party goers and notoriously have to knock on noisy doors, I seriously hope Airbnb goes bankrupt and that cities ban the whole business model.
- tempsy 7y ago
  I feel like AirBnB has largely escaped the public uproar that Uber/Lyft have experienced, perhaps because workers rights are more tangible/relatable than the second order effects of crowding out housing stock for full-time Airbnbs despite the more serious socioeconomic consequences Airbnb can have on housing prices/available rental stock as well as safety and quality of life for anyone that has to live near one.
- sleepychu 7y ago
  The problem is that the city as a whole benefits from the increased tourism (while you and I languish in the noise polution). My city actually prohibits the use of residential buildings for short-term lets by planning permission. Though as far as I can tell despite the hundreds of air bnb listings nobody has actually applied for it! I've appealed for enforcement to the local govt and am hopeful that this will resolve my issue. :-)
- alkonaut 7y ago
  In many cities apartments are normally owned through some kind of co-op with a board that decides things. If that’s the case then I wouldn’t buy one in a building that allows more than temporary subletting. This is the case at least in Sweden, i.e it’s pretty hard to buy-to-let, and that’s normally a good thing (also for price stability).
  - robteix 7y ago
sschueller 7y ago
I guess requiring a license to run a hotel or a cab company do have a reason after all. /s
- chirau 7y ago
  It definitely has a use, but not at the exorbitant price
- tinus_hn 7y ago
  The license in no way guarantees this can’t happen in a hotel.
  - sschueller 7y ago
    No but a license requires a regulatory body and that body should be tasks to inspect such things. Of course if the system is corrupt and broken it won't make a difference. Why have companies require FDA approval/inspections if it doesn't guarantee that there isn't some poison in your food?
    - Someone1234 7y ago
      What regulatory body currently inspects hotel rooms for hidden cameras or listening devices?
      - lykr0n 7y ago
        If there is a regulation that says you can't do something, it's not there to make sure it doesn't happen, it's there so when when it does happen you have legal recourse to sue the fuck out of them. If a hotel is required to maintain a standard of privacy, then you better believe the brand tries to maintain some compliance to that standard. If Marriott found out that one of it's hotels was putting recording devices in their rooms, you better believe the corporate office would come down on that hotel. If not for legal reasons, public image and brand reputation.
        7y ago
pcdoodle 7y ago
How to be extra paranoid brought to you by Hotel Industry Fear Porn (tm).
- nerdponx 7y ago
  If an article comes out this year about hidden cameras in hotel rooms, scanning for brands/logos and/or running facial recognition for law enforcement, I won't be shocked.
  - Fins 7y ago
    Yeah, and trhey also run child prostitution rings out of their evil hotel pizza parlors. Lengths to which the SV crowd would go to pretend that it is not absolutely, thoroughly, and irredeemably morally bankrupt are truly scary...
known 7y ago
Fascinating & Frightening Shodan Search Queries https://jarv.is/notes/shodan-search-queries/ https://jarv.is/notes/shodan-search-queries/
- jakejarvis 7y ago
  Thanks for posting my weird collection! A personal spy cam in a rental home is bad enough, but the fact that there are so many open to the world (and therefore indexed on Shodan) makes it infinitely worse.
intricatedetail 7y ago
I had a couple of situations where airbnb was a life saver (victim of abusive relationship). There are not many places where a male can seek a shelter as most of them are being targeted towards women and children. In my city hotels are extremely expensive so airbnb was a good option to have. I understand that tourists can be nuisance but I wouldn't like it to be banned.
- djsumdog 7y ago
  What about hostels? Sure you're in a share room, but you can often tell by reviews if a hostel is a "party hostel" or more all ages. And if it's not, just book for one or two nights. I practically lived out of different hostels, and one a few peoples' couches, for about 11 months once: https://khanism.org/perspective/minimalism/ https://khanism.org/perspective/minimalism/
  - notabot4000 7y ago
    Depending on the city/hostel, they might not allow a city resident to stay in their hostel. Aside from that, in dealing with a difficult situation like the parent comment mentions I don’t think many people would enjoy being in a many-person bunk room with zero privacy. Anecdotally, I’ve had to stay in a hostel due to relationship issues and it was awful, more expensive than an airbnb, but was the only thing I could find last minute.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    I'll second the hostels, and don't dismiss them just because apparently in the US they imply bunk beds in large rooms. I've stayed in hostels quite a bit, and every one had places rented by the room, not by bed, and plenty of single and double rooms. Hostels, at least in (most of?) Europe, are essentially cheaper hotels, usually without a minibar and with much less upselling. Or, in terms I know from US cinema, they're like motels without the car culture aspect.
    - mbel 7y ago
      From my experience in Europe: hostels imply a bunk bed in shared room here too. I just made a quick search on booking.com for a hostel in Warsaw and nearly all of the offers were shared dormitories.
acollins1331 7y ago
Someone on an Airbnb put me up in their place for next to nothing when I was fleeing a hurricane. Hotels were booked and upcharging people huge amounts. There are pros and cons to the system, anyone advocating banning it, however, is only seeing their own side.
- ilikehurdles 7y ago
  I'm not at all for banning it. But stories like these, from a consumer standpoint, make me want to increasingly avoid Airbnb. Hosts need to be at minimum banned from the platform for having cameras in housing they're offering to guests. And "disclosing" them is not enough.
  - acollins1331 7y ago
    I'm anti surveillance, but if it's disclosed in the ad that there are cameras and where they were then it seems like something a person can decide whether or not that bothers them. No cameras seems a little excessive.
    - dannyw 7y ago
      Cameras outside of housing like exteriors is fine. Cameras INSIDE a home is just not OK. I cannot imagine a single legitimate purpose where that is OK, can you?
    - ilikehurdles 7y ago
      The only time it’s OK is if all parties are consenting to be part of some voyeuristic fetish movie. There is never an excuse for such a blatant privacy violation. “No cameras seems a little bit excessive” sounds dystopian.
djsumdog 7y ago
Hmm .. I had a friend recently who rented out a room on Airbnb and had guests that trashed it. Airbnb did pay damaged on his claim. He rented again and the girl asked if she could rent for a few more months. So they signed a standard city lease outside Airbnb and she hasn't left or paid. He's had to file eviction. That obviously isn't AirBNB's fault, but it's now 2 for 2 bad experiences that started with AirBNB. I wonder how many people install cameras in just the entrances/open areas more as a general liability thing. It probably goes against Airbnb policies, might be unethical or illegal in some jurisdictions, but considering the horror stories on both sides, I can understand why it happens.
- rando444 7y ago
  Not only was the second incident not related to AirBnB, but in both incidents you describe, having cameras would not have provided any value.
- Someone1234 7y ago
  > I wonder how many people install cameras in just the entrances/open areas more as a general liability thing. Can you clarify that? How does adding a camera near the entrance avoid liability? The examples given it wouldn't have helped, particularly if positioned where suggested. Plus in that scenario they should be overt cameras not covert. If for no other reason that there's no real concept of the entrance area being any less private than anywhere else in the abode.
  - jobigoud 7y ago
    One scenario is if you specify your listing is for 2 persons and you rent to two guests, but then there is a party of 14 and you get back the place trashed. You can prove they lied.
- zild3d 7y ago
  > they signed a standard city lease outside Airbnb and she hasn't left or paid. He's had to file eviction. That obviously isn't AirBNB's fault, but it's now 2 for 2 bad experiences that started with AirBNB. That seems like a point for AirBnB to me. This happened by going outside of AirBnB and doing a normal lease, which has those risks. If a guest is somehow avoiding paying, that is AirBnB's problem to deal with
jmalkin 7y ago
Whoops hugged the site to death
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
briantailor 7y ago
I'm always nervous when I went through Airbnb because you are never really 100% certain until you arrive. While it is significantly cheaper than a hotel or even hostel sometimes it is just better to pay a bit extra and be secure with your choice.
- jobigoud 7y ago
  What makes you "really 100% certain" about hotels?
risyachka 7y ago
Airbnb is not evil. Tourists that don't care or follow the rules are. Without Airbnb, they will bring the same problems just to other people in other places. Many hotels do charge unjustified amounts of money, so I am personally happy there is an option to pay reasonable money for good service. Also, it's not like hotels don't have their share of problems. Many hotels in many countries offer you pure garbage when you arrive, mix rooms, bad food, etc. And in many hotels, you can't sleep because of loud tourists or your hotel neighbors. With Airbnb when you find a listing with 30+ 5star reviews, at least you are sure it matches pictures and description. So obviously, Airbnb has its flaws, just like any other service. But hotels are definitely not the solution to them, at least from a tourist's point of view, though I absolutely see how they are for some local residents.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Now for the counterargument: Airbnb is evil, because it facilitates and profits from rule and lawbreaking, up to and including turning whole apartment buildings into pirate hotels, while spinning the tale that it's all about individuals occasionally renting out their primary place of residence for a couple of days. It's evil because while occasional random temporary sublets aren't a problem, they become a problem when they stop being random and instead become a coordinated, frequent phenomenon. It's evil because its whole business model is making money by encouraging people to break social contract and do wrong against their neighbors. Sure, hotels, motels, hostels, and all other legit accomodations aren't perfect. But this isn't the way to fix them.
  - _petronius 7y ago
    I agree with this, and I think there is an interesting generalisation that can be pulled out of it: something’s which are fine (harmless, neutral, or even good) at a small individual scale become problematic or terrible when done at the scale that modern software and the internet can provide. VRBO isn’t inherently bad, hijacking VRBO into a stealth hotel business and breaking the social contract of residential neighbourhoods is.
    - 7y ago
mattoxic 7y ago
AirBnB has destroyed the housing market in Tasmania. We now have tent cities (ok, hyperbole, but tent villages) of people who have been turfed out of long term rental to make way for short stay tourist market.
OrgNet 7y ago
The site was down for me, here is a mirror: http://archive.is/KI59h http://archive.is/KI59h
OrgNet 7y ago
> Here are some of the innocent devices you may find: smart TVs lol... many smart TVs are not innocent devices If it was me I would start by disabling the local modem and router. That doesn't take care of cameras that have on-board SD cards, but it is a good start.
celeritascelery 7y ago
What is your recourse if you do happen to find a hidden camera? I mean, is it illegal for someone to hide a camera in their own house and not tell you?
- gwbas1c 7y ago
  Contact AirBNB (or Homeaway, ect,) directly.
- m-p-3 7y ago
  Could be considered voyeurism, which depending of the jurisdiction can be considered a sexual crime or a breach of the peace.
- dfxm12 7y ago
  Regardless of local law, it's against AirBNB's TOS to have an undisclosed camera in the room. You should contact them. https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnbs-rules-about-security-cameras-and-other-recording-devices-in-listings https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnbs-rul... I ran into a situation where there was an undisclosed camera inside a room I rented (with the bathroom in its field of view, no less!). It put me in a tough spot because in an unfamiliar city, I don't want to cancel my room and have to look for another, but I also don't want to be spied on either. I covered the camera and disclosed it to AirBNB after the fact. I'm not sure what happened to the hosts, if anything.
  - jobigoud 7y ago
    For this kind of offense if you are uncomfortable staying any longer, Airbnb can try to relocate you in a similar priced listing for the rest of your stay. In any case you should also say so in the review so other guests are warned. The host can't see your review until after they review you themselves.
- chipperyman573 7y ago
  It depends on the state but almost every state has a law saying something along the lines of areas that have elevated natural expectations of privacy - rooms such as bedrooms or bathrooms a reasonable person could expect to have total privacy - cannot be recorded without the consent of every single person in the room. So, in general, yes. BTW, some states have laws that extend this to an entire living space, including kitchen etc.
danesparza 7y ago
Just to be clear, AirBnB has rules about cameras: https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnbs-rules-about-security-cameras-and-other-recording-devices-in-listings https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnbs-rul... Note that you can get a full refund if the host breaks these rules.
- nsajko 7y ago
  > we require hosts to disclose all security cameras and other recording devices in their listings, and we prohibit any security cameras and other recording devices that are in or that observe the interior of certain private spaces (such as bedrooms and bathrooms), regardless of whether they’ve been disclosed.
  - learc83 7y ago
    Banning them only in bedrooms and bathrooms is insane. Common spaces aren't public spaces if you rent out the whole place. If you can't rent out your place without recording your renters, you dont need to be renting.
    - ilikehurdles 7y ago
      A host's desire to reach some profit margin shouldn't stomp on my right to privacy. Hosts should get insurance, set a security deposit, increase prices, and/or vet guests better if they're incapable of trusting the people they invite into a home. Cameras have no place inside of residences.
    - danesparza 7y ago
      I completely agree with you. My point in including the link to the help article is to point out that AirBnB is on the side of disclosure -- so you as a consumer can make that choice for yourself. Somehow, I don't think many hotels would be that transparent.
      - learc83 7y ago
mensetmanusman 7y ago
AirBnB has also helped many low income minorities make additional income, because usually these are the people building and maintaining local culture. Most AirBnB guests are not doing what you describe. Call the police, and let AirBnB ban the loud ones.
jobigoud 7y ago
Here is an evil idea: hotels could start providing smart speakers integrated in the rooms. Call it Smart Room™. This way you can ask the room where the nearest supermarket is or whatever, that would be convenient for an out-of-town trip wouldn't it? Obviously the hotel would record all the requests and then sell the data to local shops / marketers, or even customize the answers for a fee. There is currently a debate on some Airbnb forums about smart speakers, whether they are a nice-touch or just creepy.
jerzyt 7y ago
I find it ironic that someone so concerned about hidden cameras is advocating hack attacks on the host's network. I run an Airbnb, no cameras, not even on the door. The only sensor I have is on the Nest thermostat to automatically turn off heating when no one is present. I expect the courtesy of my network not being hacked into by some wannabe hacker.

361 points by greencore 7y ago

dsl 7y ago

If you are concerned about cameras in Airbnbs, consider picking up a camera detector off Amazon for ~$30. They are basically a ring of super bright LEDs with a colored lens in the middle you put up to your eye and scan around the room. The light reflects off the curved glass of the lens and the filter helps you see it. The less effective but impromptu version of this is just holding a super bright flashlight between your eyes (facing out), but you kinda need to have to done it before to know what to look for.

miguelmota 7y ago
Can you share a link of one that you recommend?
- dsl 7y ago
  If you search Amazon for "camera detector" there are multiple vendors selling one that has the form factor of a Zippo lighter. This is the professional version (~$1500), for comparison: https://www.selcomsecurity.com/en/products/data-leakage-channels-detection/item/436-hidden-camera-detector-optic-2 https://www.selcomsecurity.com/en/products/data-leakage-chan...
amelius 7y ago
Would it detect a pinhole camera?
kurthr 7y ago
These work if the camera manufacturer really doesn't care and puts the lens on the outside. However, if they do care and put a circular polarizer with an anti-reflective film on top... like your OLED phone has, then that will cut the reflection >100x. You probably won't see them and they'll only lose 50% of the light.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  Would polarized sunglasses work in that case then? I regularly get a shimmer from any LCD or OLED phone when on the town
  - kurthr 7y ago
    No, unfortunately circular polarizers kill any specular reflection that goes in. To do them you need a wide spectrum 45 deg phase delay film on top of the polarizer. You can buy the circular polarizer film, but note that it has a front/back (it's not symmetric). Another confusing attack is to put a camera behind a much larger half-slivered mirror... that does the job too because everything reflects... add a circular polarizer to that :^\
lnsru 7y ago
Could this be improved creating an app for smartphones? They have light source and camera with zoom, so suspicious reflections can be identified for manual inspection later. Probably integrated WiFi scanner also doable. Is there market for this?
- noir_lord 7y ago
  With the accelermoter you could pan the room and then afterwards use that to create an AR overlay to direct you at oddities.
- Cthulhu_ 7y ago
  There was a video clip the other day showing just this - it was basically a plastic sheet / filter you could hold over your phone's camera and flashlight that made camera lenses stand out.
- dsl 7y ago
  Not really. White light doesn't work as well as flashing red and green.
pvaldes 7y ago
So if you really want to hide a pinhole camera. Meow... https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32731641924.html https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32731641924.html Looks like an arms race easy to win.
- Tade0 7y ago
  To that I raise you this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_junction_detector https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_junction_detector Expensive, but surely there's someone providing such a service nearby?
  - userbinator 7y ago
    That will basically pick up every piece of electronic equipment in the room. Given that cameras can be hidden in them too, and that you'd have to take apart each one to be sure, I don't think a NLJD will tell you much. They were developed at a time when electronic equipment was far less common, so the presence of electronics was more suspicious; now, you can come across things like deeply embedded RFID tags (only used for inventory tracking) in otherwise completely non-electronic products.
    - dsl 7y ago
      You are correct, they pick up a lot. But depending on the type of engagement, you just end up taking apart every single thing with a circuit in it anyway. There are defeats for nonlinear detectors, like a three port circulator with a resistor. In turn there are more advanced detection methods, but now you are getting in to tools not publicly available.
kitd 7y ago
IIRC, most smartphone cameras can clearly detect IR, so another option is to wait til dusk, or darken the room, then scan it through your smartphone camera looking for pinpoints of light that show the IR bulb. Ofc, doesn't work with cameras that don't have IR.
- m-p-3 7y ago
  Most smartphones have an IR filter on the back camera, but don't on the front camera. A good way to test that is by using an old-fashioned TV remote with an IR emitter and look for it to glow when pressing a button. It's a good way to test the batteries too!

wumms 7y ago

Google cache: (couldn't find it on archive.org): http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fisc.sans.edu%2Fdiary%2FHow%2Bto%2BFind%2BHidden%2BCameras%2Bin%2Byour%2BAirBNB%2F24834 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps...

JacKTrocinskI 7y ago

Or just go to a hotel! I have a condo in a building where most of the units are listed on Airbnb or Booking.com, quality of life for residents like me has been drastically reduced by noisy tourists that come for a weekend trip and have no regard for keeping it quiet or keeping the shared spaces clean. I hope more cities begin to ban Airbnb. Tourists belong in hotels not in buildings where families try to live their daily lives and have to go to work. I've had to call the police on party goers and notoriously have to knock on noisy doors, I seriously hope Airbnb goes bankrupt and that cities ban the whole business model.

tempsy 7y ago
I feel like AirBnB has largely escaped the public uproar that Uber/Lyft have experienced, perhaps because workers rights are more tangible/relatable than the second order effects of crowding out housing stock for full-time Airbnbs despite the more serious socioeconomic consequences Airbnb can have on housing prices/available rental stock as well as safety and quality of life for anyone that has to live near one.
sleepychu 7y ago
The problem is that the city as a whole benefits from the increased tourism (while you and I languish in the noise polution). My city actually prohibits the use of residential buildings for short-term lets by planning permission. Though as far as I can tell despite the hundreds of air bnb listings nobody has actually applied for it! I've appealed for enforcement to the local govt and am hopeful that this will resolve my issue. :-)
alkonaut 7y ago
In many cities apartments are normally owned through some kind of co-op with a board that decides things. If that’s the case then I wouldn’t buy one in a building that allows more than temporary subletting. This is the case at least in Sweden, i.e it’s pretty hard to buy-to-let, and that’s normally a good thing (also for price stability).
- robteix 7y ago

sschueller 7y ago

I guess requiring a license to run a hotel or a cab company do have a reason after all. /s

chirau 7y ago
It definitely has a use, but not at the exorbitant price
tinus_hn 7y ago
The license in no way guarantees this can’t happen in a hotel.
- sschueller 7y ago
  No but a license requires a regulatory body and that body should be tasks to inspect such things. Of course if the system is corrupt and broken it won't make a difference. Why have companies require FDA approval/inspections if it doesn't guarantee that there isn't some poison in your food?
  - Someone1234 7y ago
    What regulatory body currently inspects hotel rooms for hidden cameras or listening devices?
    - lykr0n 7y ago
      If there is a regulation that says you can't do something, it's not there to make sure it doesn't happen, it's there so when when it does happen you have legal recourse to sue the fuck out of them. If a hotel is required to maintain a standard of privacy, then you better believe the brand tries to maintain some compliance to that standard. If Marriott found out that one of it's hotels was putting recording devices in their rooms, you better believe the corporate office would come down on that hotel. If not for legal reasons, public image and brand reputation.
      - 7y ago

pcdoodle 7y ago

How to be extra paranoid brought to you by Hotel Industry Fear Porn (tm).

nerdponx 7y ago
If an article comes out this year about hidden cameras in hotel rooms, scanning for brands/logos and/or running facial recognition for law enforcement, I won't be shocked.
- Fins 7y ago
  Yeah, and trhey also run child prostitution rings out of their evil hotel pizza parlors. Lengths to which the SV crowd would go to pretend that it is not absolutely, thoroughly, and irredeemably morally bankrupt are truly scary...

known 7y ago

Fascinating & Frightening Shodan Search Queries https://jarv.is/notes/shodan-search-queries/ https://jarv.is/notes/shodan-search-queries/

jakejarvis 7y ago
Thanks for posting my weird collection! A personal spy cam in a rental home is bad enough, but the fact that there are so many open to the world (and therefore indexed on Shodan) makes it infinitely worse.

intricatedetail 7y ago

I had a couple of situations where airbnb was a life saver (victim of abusive relationship). There are not many places where a male can seek a shelter as most of them are being targeted towards women and children. In my city hotels are extremely expensive so airbnb was a good option to have. I understand that tourists can be nuisance but I wouldn't like it to be banned.

djsumdog 7y ago
What about hostels? Sure you're in a share room, but you can often tell by reviews if a hostel is a "party hostel" or more all ages. And if it's not, just book for one or two nights. I practically lived out of different hostels, and one a few peoples' couches, for about 11 months once: https://khanism.org/perspective/minimalism/ https://khanism.org/perspective/minimalism/
- notabot4000 7y ago
  Depending on the city/hostel, they might not allow a city resident to stay in their hostel. Aside from that, in dealing with a difficult situation like the parent comment mentions I don’t think many people would enjoy being in a many-person bunk room with zero privacy. Anecdotally, I’ve had to stay in a hostel due to relationship issues and it was awful, more expensive than an airbnb, but was the only thing I could find last minute.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  I'll second the hostels, and don't dismiss them just because apparently in the US they imply bunk beds in large rooms. I've stayed in hostels quite a bit, and every one had places rented by the room, not by bed, and plenty of single and double rooms. Hostels, at least in (most of?) Europe, are essentially cheaper hotels, usually without a minibar and with much less upselling. Or, in terms I know from US cinema, they're like motels without the car culture aspect.
  - mbel 7y ago
    From my experience in Europe: hostels imply a bunk bed in shared room here too. I just made a quick search on booking.com for a hostel in Warsaw and nearly all of the offers were shared dormitories.

acollins1331 7y ago

Someone on an Airbnb put me up in their place for next to nothing when I was fleeing a hurricane. Hotels were booked and upcharging people huge amounts. There are pros and cons to the system, anyone advocating banning it, however, is only seeing their own side.

ilikehurdles 7y ago
I'm not at all for banning it. But stories like these, from a consumer standpoint, make me want to increasingly avoid Airbnb. Hosts need to be at minimum banned from the platform for having cameras in housing they're offering to guests. And "disclosing" them is not enough.
- acollins1331 7y ago
  I'm anti surveillance, but if it's disclosed in the ad that there are cameras and where they were then it seems like something a person can decide whether or not that bothers them. No cameras seems a little excessive.
  - dannyw 7y ago
    Cameras outside of housing like exteriors is fine. Cameras INSIDE a home is just not OK. I cannot imagine a single legitimate purpose where that is OK, can you?
  - ilikehurdles 7y ago
    The only time it’s OK is if all parties are consenting to be part of some voyeuristic fetish movie. There is never an excuse for such a blatant privacy violation. “No cameras seems a little bit excessive” sounds dystopian.

djsumdog 7y ago

Hmm .. I had a friend recently who rented out a room on Airbnb and had guests that trashed it. Airbnb did pay damaged on his claim. He rented again and the girl asked if she could rent for a few more months. So they signed a standard city lease outside Airbnb and she hasn't left or paid. He's had to file eviction. That obviously isn't AirBNB's fault, but it's now 2 for 2 bad experiences that started with AirBNB. I wonder how many people install cameras in just the entrances/open areas more as a general liability thing. It probably goes against Airbnb policies, might be unethical or illegal in some jurisdictions, but considering the horror stories on both sides, I can understand why it happens.

rando444 7y ago
Not only was the second incident not related to AirBnB, but in both incidents you describe, having cameras would not have provided any value.
Someone1234 7y ago
> I wonder how many people install cameras in just the entrances/open areas more as a general liability thing. Can you clarify that? How does adding a camera near the entrance avoid liability? The examples given it wouldn't have helped, particularly if positioned where suggested. Plus in that scenario they should be overt cameras not covert. If for no other reason that there's no real concept of the entrance area being any less private than anywhere else in the abode.
- jobigoud 7y ago
  One scenario is if you specify your listing is for 2 persons and you rent to two guests, but then there is a party of 14 and you get back the place trashed. You can prove they lied.
zild3d 7y ago
> they signed a standard city lease outside Airbnb and she hasn't left or paid. He's had to file eviction. That obviously isn't AirBNB's fault, but it's now 2 for 2 bad experiences that started with AirBNB. That seems like a point for AirBnB to me. This happened by going outside of AirBnB and doing a normal lease, which has those risks. If a guest is somehow avoiding paying, that is AirBnB's problem to deal with

jmalkin 7y ago

Whoops hugged the site to death

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

briantailor 7y ago

I'm always nervous when I went through Airbnb because you are never really 100% certain until you arrive. While it is significantly cheaper than a hotel or even hostel sometimes it is just better to pay a bit extra and be secure with your choice.

jobigoud 7y ago
What makes you "really 100% certain" about hotels?

risyachka 7y ago

Airbnb is not evil. Tourists that don't care or follow the rules are. Without Airbnb, they will bring the same problems just to other people in other places. Many hotels do charge unjustified amounts of money, so I am personally happy there is an option to pay reasonable money for good service. Also, it's not like hotels don't have their share of problems. Many hotels in many countries offer you pure garbage when you arrive, mix rooms, bad food, etc. And in many hotels, you can't sleep because of loud tourists or your hotel neighbors. With Airbnb when you find a listing with 30+ 5star reviews, at least you are sure it matches pictures and description. So obviously, Airbnb has its flaws, just like any other service. But hotels are definitely not the solution to them, at least from a tourist's point of view, though I absolutely see how they are for some local residents.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
Now for the counterargument: Airbnb is evil, because it facilitates and profits from rule and lawbreaking, up to and including turning whole apartment buildings into pirate hotels, while spinning the tale that it's all about individuals occasionally renting out their primary place of residence for a couple of days. It's evil because while occasional random temporary sublets aren't a problem, they become a problem when they stop being random and instead become a coordinated, frequent phenomenon. It's evil because its whole business model is making money by encouraging people to break social contract and do wrong against their neighbors. Sure, hotels, motels, hostels, and all other legit accomodations aren't perfect. But this isn't the way to fix them.
- _petronius 7y ago
  I agree with this, and I think there is an interesting generalisation that can be pulled out of it: something’s which are fine (harmless, neutral, or even good) at a small individual scale become problematic or terrible when done at the scale that modern software and the internet can provide. VRBO isn’t inherently bad, hijacking VRBO into a stealth hotel business and breaking the social contract of residential neighbourhoods is.
  - 7y ago

mattoxic 7y ago

AirBnB has destroyed the housing market in Tasmania. We now have tent cities (ok, hyperbole, but tent villages) of people who have been turfed out of long term rental to make way for short stay tourist market.

OrgNet 7y ago

The site was down for me, here is a mirror: http://archive.is/KI59h http://archive.is/KI59h

OrgNet 7y ago

> Here are some of the innocent devices you may find: smart TVs lol... many smart TVs are not innocent devices If it was me I would start by disabling the local modem and router. That doesn't take care of cameras that have on-board SD cards, but it is a good start.

celeritascelery 7y ago

What is your recourse if you do happen to find a hidden camera? I mean, is it illegal for someone to hide a camera in their own house and not tell you?

gwbas1c 7y ago
Contact AirBNB (or Homeaway, ect,) directly.
m-p-3 7y ago
Could be considered voyeurism, which depending of the jurisdiction can be considered a sexual crime or a breach of the peace.
dfxm12 7y ago
Regardless of local law, it's against AirBNB's TOS to have an undisclosed camera in the room. You should contact them. https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnbs-rules-about-security-cameras-and-other-recording-devices-in-listings https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnbs-rul... I ran into a situation where there was an undisclosed camera inside a room I rented (with the bathroom in its field of view, no less!). It put me in a tough spot because in an unfamiliar city, I don't want to cancel my room and have to look for another, but I also don't want to be spied on either. I covered the camera and disclosed it to AirBNB after the fact. I'm not sure what happened to the hosts, if anything.
- jobigoud 7y ago
  For this kind of offense if you are uncomfortable staying any longer, Airbnb can try to relocate you in a similar priced listing for the rest of your stay. In any case you should also say so in the review so other guests are warned. The host can't see your review until after they review you themselves.
chipperyman573 7y ago
It depends on the state but almost every state has a law saying something along the lines of areas that have elevated natural expectations of privacy - rooms such as bedrooms or bathrooms a reasonable person could expect to have total privacy - cannot be recorded without the consent of every single person in the room. So, in general, yes. BTW, some states have laws that extend this to an entire living space, including kitchen etc.

danesparza 7y ago

Just to be clear, AirBnB has rules about cameras: https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnbs-rules-about-security-cameras-and-other-recording-devices-in-listings https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnbs-rul... Note that you can get a full refund if the host breaks these rules.

nsajko 7y ago
> we require hosts to disclose all security cameras and other recording devices in their listings, and we prohibit any security cameras and other recording devices that are in or that observe the interior of certain private spaces (such as bedrooms and bathrooms), regardless of whether they’ve been disclosed.
- learc83 7y ago
  Banning them only in bedrooms and bathrooms is insane. Common spaces aren't public spaces if you rent out the whole place. If you can't rent out your place without recording your renters, you dont need to be renting.
  - ilikehurdles 7y ago
    A host's desire to reach some profit margin shouldn't stomp on my right to privacy. Hosts should get insurance, set a security deposit, increase prices, and/or vet guests better if they're incapable of trusting the people they invite into a home. Cameras have no place inside of residences.
  - danesparza 7y ago
    I completely agree with you. My point in including the link to the help article is to point out that AirBnB is on the side of disclosure -- so you as a consumer can make that choice for yourself. Somehow, I don't think many hotels would be that transparent.
    - learc83 7y ago

mensetmanusman 7y ago

AirBnB has also helped many low income minorities make additional income, because usually these are the people building and maintaining local culture. Most AirBnB guests are not doing what you describe. Call the police, and let AirBnB ban the loud ones.

jobigoud 7y ago

Here is an evil idea: hotels could start providing smart speakers integrated in the rooms. Call it Smart Room™. This way you can ask the room where the nearest supermarket is or whatever, that would be convenient for an out-of-town trip wouldn't it? Obviously the hotel would record all the requests and then sell the data to local shops / marketers, or even customize the answers for a fee. There is currently a debate on some Airbnb forums about smart speakers, whether they are a nice-touch or just creepy.

jerzyt 7y ago

I find it ironic that someone so concerned about hidden cameras is advocating hack attacks on the host's network. I run an Airbnb, no cameras, not even on the door. The only sensor I have is on the Nest thermostat to automatically turn off heating when no one is present. I expect the courtesy of my network not being hacked into by some wannabe hacker.