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This is all amazing but it makes me wonder if something is a bit crazy with these games. Why explore a universe created by some game company when you could be e

This is all amazing but it makes me wonder if something is a bit crazy with these games. Why explore a universe created by some game company when you could be exploring the real universe by studying astronomy? Why try to earn money and gold in these games which although it can be turned into real money is part of a zero-sum game. Your win is their loss, why because there is no real value created in the game after all. In real life you can make money by creating a corporation which is not a zero-sum game because it brings value to both the owners and workers of the company and its customers. I understand it can be much more fun in the game than the real life and that's why people do it, but I just wonder if it's just escapism, avoiding the challenges of the real world?

hyperpallium 7y ago
> it can be much more fun in the game than the real life Why is it more fun? We have innate motivations to explore, create, trade, communicate. But there's a lot of extra work surrounding it: Solving a coding problem is fun, but organizing and neatening and testing and documenting is not (as much). Creating value and trading it for money is fun, but trying to understand international tax law is not (as much). A government can harness innate productivity by stopping stopping it.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  Because blowing people up in real life has nasty consequences?
WhoBeI 7y ago
It's a bit odd to go solo in Eve and I'd agree that you probably don't get much out of it. The medium to large PvP side of the game includes a lot of planning and communication though which should translate decently into RL for the leaders at least. The main Goon FC of BR- talked about it at Eve Fanfest if you're curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oz4rzP-CAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oz4rzP-CAY
miguelmota 7y ago
why? It's simple; because it creates happiness to the player. Why did you type that comment? Maybe because it creates happiness to you in the form of intrinsic reward when your question is answered or you simply become happier when expressing your thoughts. It's all for feeling joy in the end. If you ask 'why' enough times to anything, you'll ultimately reach the conclusion that there no real deeper meaning to life so might as well live it in a happy way while you're here.
- mirimir 7y ago
  I'm more into "why not?".
  - galaxyLogic 7y ago
    Right, why not do something more useful :-)
    - miguelmota 7y ago
      The term 'useful' here is open to interpretation; it'll mean something different to everybody
jupiter90000 7y ago
Why are you typing on HN when you could be doing a non zero sum activity?
b_tterc_p 7y ago
Effort in real life is often dull and has no effect on your outcomes. Video games have objective, measurable progress. If you want to be a high status individual, it’s relatively clear what you have to do.
maximente 7y ago
i would say there are 2 axes here: 1 is creation vs consumption continuum, where you have e.g. designing a course as an expert (you're likely to derive little value other than financial but has huge value adds to those interested) vs. watching tv (purely passive). so this is clearly not purely passive despite being a sort of passive activity, more towards active i'd say, which is healthier/more fulfilling imo. another is real life vs virtual life, which i think you're more interested in here. i personally agree in so far as i've "wasted" many years of my life on virtaul things (key differentiator) that were sort of fun, but when i look at what could have been with 10% of that time i just feel utter disgust. long story but no matter: it may be in 10 years time he feels the same, or not. obviously he kept a job and whatever else, so in some sense it's well earned leisure time.
- em-bee 7y ago
  why do we read fiction books? they are just as virtual as exploring the EVE universe (or playing any computer game) i would add a third dimension: how does the activity enrich my daily life. people watch TV to get informed, entertained or to unwind. if you explore EVE with the goal to get informed, you'll surely waste your time. but if it's entertaining/unwinding, then why not. it's visual fiction.
  - maximente 7y ago
    not a bad line of thought, and covers some of the non pathological cases. but, we know these non-fiction book things are designed to be addictive (ladder climbing/achievement elements for games, timing elements for television, reward intervals for both) and so the pathological case is important to examine. key question then in this case is, imo: to what extent was this driven by pathological vs. non pathological behavior? in my personal case, which is why i have so much regret, is that it was so darn easy to plow more hours in, to the detriment of the rest of my life, due to the design of the game. if it's genuinely not for him, then i agree, not an issue. i would personally consider it exceptional however.
    - em-bee 7y ago
em-bee 7y ago
the elite: dangerous universe is actually modeled after the milky-way galaxy. of course a lot is guessing and speculation, but when new facts emerge, the game is actually being updated. ironically, contrary to its name, it appears that elite: dangerous is actually less PvP than EVE. and there are expedition groups with hundreds of ships to explore the galaxy that last months, or even years. "it gives a sense of the vastness of the galaxy" because while they use some form of FTL jump to make traveling those long distances possible it still can take some tens of minutes to travel within a solar system to get from one planet to another. i don't know how accurate their model is, but i believe of it is sufficiently close it can be a great learning experience.
egypturnash 7y ago
Sometimes you want a hobby free of conflict or challenge. A place to relax, not a place to learn and grow or make money. Maybe even an excuse to sit there and not really think about much of anything in particular for a while. Let your brain have some big slow thoughts while you watch imaginary space flow past your imaginary spaceship’s cockpit.
- SHAKEDECADE 7y ago
  Sometimes you want a hobby free of conflict or challenge. A place to relax Reminds me of stories I read about people who played Red Dead Redemption 2 purely for the chores and exploration of the land. ..not a place to learn and grow..Let your brain have some big slow thoughts.. When I do mind numbing chores like washing dishes, mowing the lawn, laundry; I can’t help but sit inside my head and have conversations with myself about whatever is deemed important at that moment. As insignificant as these micro chats may be, they’re growth. In turn, learning/experiencing myself to a deeper level. Two quotes come to mind: Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. -Oliver Wendell Holmes Baby steps, Bob. Baby steps. -Dr. Leo Marvin Each new experience, grande or otherwise builds our character.
- unityByFreedom 7y ago
  10 years seems a bit much.
  - keyle 7y ago
    10 years only reflects how enjoyable and purposeful it's been. I don't think someone wastes 10 years of their lifes without enjoying the process somewhat a little.
  - bdcravens 7y ago
    Depends. 90 minutes a day doesn't seem excessive to me - I know I spend more than 90 minutes many days on HN, and I've had my account almost ten years.
zamalek 7y ago
> Why... The severity of failure modes. In games you can just start a new character; in real life you are broke, or worse.
colechristensen 7y ago
What is real? I can create a business that does things only in computers and use the funds to buy other things only in computers, how is that different than a game? Games are life with an easy mode, and many things which are "not real" are just as fulfilling as things that are "real". Accumulating wealth is mostly just a game anyway once you have the basics covered, and when you start thinking about it too hard everything is equally unreal in that nothing has any worth outside your own arbitrary values.
- feral 7y ago
  If you don't have enough resources to eat or keep warm, that will feel pretty real, right? Loads of people don't have enough to get by. If the system is working properly, you should mostly be able to accumulate wealth only if you provide value to everyone else. That's the theory anyway. There's this meme I see on HN sometimes that every use of time is equally worthwhile, and that any value judgments are arbitrary. Highly skilled communities should value work that creates some value, above noodling around in games. I've played lots of games. But I know they aren't real, beyond helping me relax, or maybe learn skills that transfer out. I agree with the OP that we shouldn't spend all our effort in games. I'm similarly skeptical of things like the fashion industry, super professional sport etc too but that's just me :)
  - deleted 7y ago
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  - antepodius 7y ago
    >If the system is working properly, you should mostly be able to accumulate wealth only if you provide value to everyone else This is somewhat devil's advocate-ey, but what's to stop someone living off social benefits and accruing EVE online wealth? (Low ohysical standard of living/prestige, high virtual prestige) Modern MMO's aren't good enough to replace the real world- yet. When they are, some subset of the population will pop on their VR machines, plug in the feeding tubes, and that's it. Unless you want to get rid of social benefits/make social benefits actually dependent on trying to get a job, you can't really stop people doing this.
xvector 7y ago
> Your win is their loss, why because there is no real value created in the game after all. Value is subjective, and not everything revolves around money. All it takes is for someone to like the game and they’re good.
RenRav 7y ago
Videogame activities are universally more appealing than the real life versions. They are designed this way usually.
hoorayimhelping 7y ago
Answered quite literally in the article: >“People say, ya know, ‘Get a life,’ and ‘This is a waste of time,’” Sae continues. “They have to understand that I only did this for an hour and a half each day just to unwind after work. I wasn’t killing myself doing this.”
- da_chicken 7y ago
  I mean, if it's that or reality television....
  - iamnotacrook 7y ago
    It's that or reading/chess/charity work though. Each to their own but objectively this is not going to appear as anything other than extremely sad and lonely to most people, even those who spend a lot of time playing computer games.
    - Apocryphon 7y ago
      Most people probably waste far more time than 90 minutes a day after work, HN posters included.
      - galaxyLogic 7y ago
        I think the point is that this was a very determined effort. If she had been as determined to achieve something in real life she would have made it surely and might now be happier and have more skills (and other forms of capital) that are useful in real life.
        Apocryphon 7y ago
        Debatable. You’re projecting your own needs, interests, and worldview onto someone else.
- JasonFruit 7y ago
  It's true that there's an answer in the article, but it's not a really satisfying one. This is 1½ hours each day for ten years; that's about 5500 hours. Think what you could do with that time! In a thousand hours, you could build a high-performance airplane. Ten years of practicing a musical instrument 1½ hours a day, you could be performing on a very high level. You could be fluent in a foreign language, learn advanced math, become a skilled gunsmith, have written several books, or have read a couple thousand books. Or you could have poked around a video game. To me, and a lot of other people, there's a real opportunity cost this person has been willing to assume, and I'm not about to pretend I think it was worth it.
cheunste 7y ago
Escapism? The article said she plays around 90 minute each day after work. This is no different than how most people watch netflix after work to unwind. Its not like she spend ten ACTUAL years in the game like a hikikomori.
jodrellblank 7y ago
In real life you can make money by creating a corporation which is not a zero-sum game because it brings value to both the owners and workers of the company and its customers. What value does the creation of Eve Online bring to its customers, if they're never allowed to play it?
- galaxyLogic 7y ago
  > What value does the creation of Eve Online bring to its customers, if they're never allowed to play it? It does bring value to them the value of entertainment. But trying to accomplish something in real life would probably bring them more value in real life, why because that would then be what you are trying to accomplish. Value in real life. If you strive towards gaining some real-life value you are more likely to gain that than if you just strive to be entertained by a game and getting them game-points. Now some games allow you to turn the game-dollars into real dollars. But the dollars you gain are dollars someone else loses. It is zero sum. No actual new value is created, no actual useful things are created, no actual useful new knowledge is being gained or created. The only value created is entertainment and there's nothing wrong with that. But it might give you more satisfaction to actually accomplish something in real life with all that effort you're putting into the game. I'm not saying you do, but in general and in this case reported in the article.
wybiral 7y ago
You can apply this logic to all kinds of things though. Why waste time learning chess when you can join the military? Why type into a box on Hacker News when you can have conversations with people face-to-face? Why waste time watching any movie when you can do those kinds of things in real life? Why even bother with the abstract nonsense of money at all instead of just growing your own food and learning to make things for yourself. Different people get pleasure from different things and if you're going to judge one it seems weird not to do so evenly.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
  It goes even deeper. Most of our drives are there simply because they made our ancestors more likely to survive or reproduce, therefore increasing the likelihood that those drives would be more common in subsequent generations. Some people seem to think that using an MMO is unnatural, but wouldn't even blink at the thought of, e.g., sex with birth control. But both are a subversion of the natural courses of the drives we've inherited from our ancestors. People whose chosen redirections of their own drives give them high social status -- the builders and commanders -- like to look down on those who choose activities that don't lead to power. IMO, this is conservation of ego, nothing more. We want to feel good about ourselves, so when we gain power beyond that which is required to propagate our genes, we say, "this is because I was a better person than that other guy." We don't like to acknowledge that we're just masturbating a slightly different way. IMO, the important question is whether playing an MMO actually fulfills your individual values. I know for me with EVE the answer was no, but that's not to say I can't picture an MMO that would. I would bet that for many currently playing it the answer is also no, because we do have addictions, us humans. But I wouldn't turn up my nose at the whole playerbase by any means. After all, who are we on this site to point fingers?
  - galaxyLogic 7y ago
    > I wouldn't turn up my nose at the whole playerbase I don't think anybody's doing that. It's more like we should be asking questions about what is going on with this thing? Does it make sense that a lot of people spend so much time on it? Or does it not? Can the games be made better? How? If the games are good for the society at large then maybe tax-payer money should be used to support their further development. Would make sense right?
baby 7y ago
I always thought the same about pro guitar hero players. They could have been spending all that time learning a real guitar, and making music for real.
- nsilvestri 7y ago
  For the record, some of the very good Guitar Hero players (e.g. Acai) are rather competent with an actual guitar. But as an active GH and regular guitar player, comparing it to an actual guitar isn't fair. I enjoy playing actual guitar as an exercise in creativity. I play GH to enjoy music more interactively rather than creatively.
  - grawprog 7y ago
    I never liked the guitar hero games. They're not much like playing a real guitar and every time i played them it just made me want to go play my guitar instead. Especially knowing how to actually play some of the songs in those games. The note patterns they used for the buttons didn't match up to how you actually played the songs. (Using the right most button for a note you'd actually use your middle or ring finger to play rather than your pinky for example)
    - billfruit 7y ago
      I got a very similar reaction with adult colouring books, when I tried one, I felt I should be rather doing my own drawing than just colouring in.
    - galaxyLogic 7y ago
      This may be the case with Eve-like games too. They may give you some idea of the cosmos but it may be misleading, involve improper shortcuts why because the PURPOSE is not to teach you something but entertain you. The purpose of GH is to make you think you can play like a real guitar hero, but based on your experience it seems like it doesn't really do that. GH COULD be better at teaching real guitar playing but I assume it is not better because it's purpose is not to teach but to get you addicted to the game.
Mikeb85 7y ago
Pretty much all forms of entertainment are escapism. What makes one better or worse? He could study astronomy for real, but let's face it, it's an impractical career and relies on barely existent funding.
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save_ferris 7y ago
So many people don't have the ability to study astronomy or start a company. Most Americans can't even afford a $500 surprise bill[0]. There's a lot for many people to escape these days, and the ability to be entrepreneurial is in itself a privilege that many simply don't have. I also find it somewhat ironic that you question the purpose of this form of entertainment created specifically by a company by suggesting that someone's time is perhaps better spent starting a company. This form of escapism exists because a company made it possible for people to escape. Clearly, you wonder if something is a bit crazy with these games, but have you ever wondered if the companies behind them actually provide value to their workers or customers? Starting a company isn't always a possibility or solution to people's problems, and not all companies provide value to society. In fact, some actively extract value from society. 0: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-cant-afford-a-500-emergency-expense/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-cant-afford-a-50...
- amvalo 7y ago
  > Most Americans can't even afford a $500 surprise bill[0]. EVE costs money wikipedia doesn't?
  - ahje 7y ago
    When I played EVE it was perfectly possible (and allowed) to trade in-game currency for game time codes with other players. I assume they didn't remove that option.
    - amvalo 7y ago
      I assume the explore-every-corner-of-the-map thing he was doing made it hard to make money
      - ahje 7y ago
        Back then, nullsec was definitely dangerous, but it was also very profitable. It would probably require that you invest quite a lot of time, though that's true with everything in EVE.
doyoulikeworms 7y ago
There's more to life than achievements. An experience, however unreal it may be, is valuable to the person experiencing it, regardless of whether or not anything is achieved outside of the experience itself. It's only escapism if it's a problem. My 2 cents.
scarface74 7y ago
Why spend time posting on the internet instead of exploring the real world? Or just understand that different people have different preferences....
DoreenMichele 7y ago
I don't play this particular game, but I do play games. Here are some of my reasons. I'm medically handicapped. Sometimes I can't go anywhere. Playing games to occupy my mind helps me not go crazy. When I'm in a lot of pain, sometimes playing games is the best way to occupy myself because I can't inadvertently make an ass of myself. It's easy to come across poorly when you feel awful and telling people you feel awful is usually not taken to mean "I'm not trying to be rude." It's taken to mean "I'm entitled to be an ass because I have a good excuse." As I've grown stronger, playing gradually harder games has played a role in my recovery and rehabilitation. It helps me exercise my mind and keep working at various recovery goals in a low key fashion on my worst days. Playing games can be educational. I sometimes ditch games because I feel their mental models are a bad influence and I play a lot of games to educate myself about various things. "Idle hands are the devil's workshop." Keeping oneself harmlessly occupied can be a big improvement over fucking shit up because you are bored, frustrated, not at your best, etc. Mental occupation serves as distraction from pain and can be medically useful. I've read some things that indicate mental occupation can reduce the need for pain killers. In a world with 7 billion people and climate change, playing a game can be more environmentally responsible than "exploring the real world." There are plenty of tourists out there just trashing things in the name of Disnified, predigested "adventure."
- galaxyLogic 7y ago
  Good points, although your situation probably does not apply to most players. It is a striking point that games are a "pain killer". So games are like morphine opium or heroin. Many people need those at some point in their life, during a hospital visit, but not every day.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    People routinely cite the stat that 15% to 20% of the population is disabled or handicapped. But Microsoft did a study that didn't use stigmatizing terms like disabled or handicapped. They just asked about what things trip people up in day-to-day life and 60% of respondents indicated they had varying degrees of trouble with day-to-day tasks. My first-hand observation is that mildly impaired people actively eschew stigmatizing labels. If you aren't so severely impaired as to require accommodation to function at all, life works better if you don't find some stigmatizing label. Previous longer comment on that by me here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19811988#19815635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19811988#19815635 So I strongly suspect most people playing a lot of games have needs not unlike mine, they just are less severely impaired than I am. Furthermore, my final point -- about the value of getting your adventures in virtual form instead of absolutely trashing the planet to satisfy a desire for adventure -- potentially applies to anyone. I’ve Climbed Everest 21 Times. It’s Not the Mountain It Used to Be. https://newrepublic.com/article/154201/ive-climbed-everest-21-times-its-not-mountain-used-be https://newrepublic.com/article/154201/ive-climbed-everest-2... Tourism and environmental damage: How travellers are ruining the world http://www.traveller.com.au/tourism-and-environmental-damage-how-travellers-are-ruining-the-world-h0xcmo http://www.traveller.com.au/tourism-and-environmental-damage...
neumann 7y ago
As I get older, I have had a harder time losing myself in many forms of passive entertainment if I can see the author's - for lack of a better word - schtick. So, with games, movies, books, music and even paintings - if I my brain picks up the process first and isn't impressed or curious by that aspect, I lose interest. This is mostly common with movies and games, where the cost and expanse of the created world often require some level of formulas/trope. It is the inverse in a lot of music, where I am fascinated by the process and production a lot and can appreciate it at both levels more. Similarly with great TV - recently I watched season 2 of Fleabag and realised I was lost both in the story telling and in wonder/amazement at it's construction and execution. Before full time work and a kid, there was a certain amount of time I could afford to lose myself in another person's creation, but nowadays if I start seeing the scaffolding, I can't unsee it. For this reason I am also starting to be drawn back to the sciences. I sometimes worry that I am finding it hard to relate to a lot of art and human expression because of this, so I try to 'lose' myself in it - but so much art (and predominantly so many games) require a lot of scaffolding. Interested if anybody else can relate and share how they deal with this.
- _cairn 7y ago
  Disclaimer: I agree with you mostly. I think your comment is an almost complete argument against playing video games. I do think it's a little incomplete to say that things inside a game can't translate to real world value. i.e. people sell accounts/items/characters for fiat currency with some regularity. Is that net-profitable or not? Maybe. Is it possible that time investment could have been spent elsewhere? Yes. And probably for better ROI. But in terms of ways that exist in this world for people to waste time/money/resources. Games seem like a very mild offender. Overall your comment makes a lot of sense though. Thanks for taking the time to write a well-thought out response to OP. Have a nice day!
- justanothersys 7y ago
  If you go to art school or study the humanities then this process of getting turned off after becoming aware of a piece’s “scaffolding” or let’s say... algorithm, usually happens much faster. The first thing that happened to me was I became aware that there is a production quality bubble in commercial media that keeps most people sealed in and once that popped I got more and more interested in obscure art related films, music, scenes, etc. like the things you would find on ubu.com. A lot of my old art school friends are still in this edgy mode and they no longer respect any populist media. Somehow I’ve come full circle because I got bored once I started seeing the “scaffolding” in all the radical 20th century and contemporary stuff too. Now I just try to find the free space where people are developing something new and involve myself somehow either as an early spectator or a participant. To put it simply, if you start watching Netflix as an anthropologist then you might enjoy the scaffolding once again.
Noos 7y ago
Why not work a second job instead of playing video games? This is pretty much what you are saying. That sort of stuff is as much work as a anything, even if done in an amateur level.
- Sebb767 7y ago
  From the top of my head: - You can easily find an ingame-"Job" that's fun and fitting for you, which is not as easy in the real world - You don't have obligations (at least not in the beginning) - Success can be archived in a pretty much known way (i.e. leveling up, grinding that specific NPC for about n times ...) instead of the rather arbitrary and sometimes luck-depended way of being successful in real life
- galaxyLogic 7y ago
  > Why not work a second job instead of playing video games? No it's more like why not work for yourself instead of working for someone else, for some part of your time. Educate yourself. If you work for someone else you get paid but really you are working towards the goals of whoever pays you. Work towards your own goals instead. But if your goal is to visit all virtual galaxies in a single game produced by some specific game company ask yourself isn't there anything more worthwhile I can accomplish in 10 years? Relaxation is of course important but it is important in order to restore our strength to work on the real challenges in our life. Games are great just like amusement parks are great. Coney Island Baby!
mch82 7y ago
Alternatively, what if we structure the real world more like the game?
ezoe 7y ago
Your comment is all amazing but it makes me wonder if something is a bit crazy with these texts. Why writing on random articles comment when you could be writing a real essay by working as a professional writer? Why try to earn upvotes in these forum... I get bored.
- hueving 7y ago
  A professional writer hopefully takes more effort than an HN comment.
scotty79 7y ago
Why read fiction if you can learn history? Because history is just one of the fictions, not the most entertaining one, that by sheer accident sort of, kinda, more or less happened.
floatingatoll 7y ago
Real astronomy require training that virtually always costs money and time (with teachers who are often unwilling to work with variable time availability), a minimum of investment in specialty EM hardware components (such as binoculars, telescopes, or radio antennas), and an unobstructed view of the sky in whatever frequencies matter (visual, radio, whatever). Exploring in a video game suffers none of those barriers. Is it escapism if one’s life has no room (in time, in money, in attention span) for physical astronomy, but does have room for virtual astronomy — with its lower requirements at the cost of its unproductive result?
z3t4 7y ago
In real life you cant do much without depending on others. Good luck getting access to the Hubble space telescope or building one yourself.
randomsearch 7y ago
You wait until VR goes mainstream. That question is about to become central to much of life. And we’re really not so far away.
- onion2k 7y ago
  You wait until VR goes mainstream. How do you wait until never?
  - randomsearch 7y ago
    Ha :-) in the 90s I remember thinking how much the Internet was going to revolutionise the world. I tried to explain to my parents that a revolution was coming that would change their lives. I was wrong, in one sense - the impact was far greater than I had envisaged. It was very difficult to imagine my parents having social media accounts and iPads back then. But now they do. I don’t see why VR will be any different. I think VR will be more disruptive than the internet (although synergistic) - the clue is in the name. An alternate reality is about as impactful as you can get.
    - onion2k 7y ago
      I think VR will be more disruptive than the internet The internet enabled new ways of doing things. There were things that were literally impossible before we were online. VR doesn't do that. It's great tech, it's very clever, it improves on whats there now but ultimately it's just a fancy monitor and a new sort of mouse. There's nothing that can be done VR that can't be done outside of VR. That is a very limiting factor for it's impact on the world.
      - randomsearch 7y ago
        So I see where we disagree, then. I do really think VR enables new possibilities, some of them I can think of but most beyond my imagination. Don’t want to further the argument, but at least we identified the point we diverge on! We’ll see. If you haven’t been to any kind of VR meet-up or hacking group, research lab or whatever, I’d recommend taking any opportunity to do so, as it might change your mind. An example I saw recently was research therapeutic use of VR in hospitals, with incredible effect sizes. And that kind of thing is just baby steps.
parksy 7y ago
Not everyone has the opportunity to become an astrophysicist, nor should everyone in the world become an astrophysicist. Many, many people staff the shops, factories, warehouses, mines, construction sites, farms and logistics chains society needs to function. Everyone needs a way to unwind, and finding an escape in a game that is set in an imaginary science fiction future is as valid as watching TV, surfing, or reading. Not every second of a person's life has to be devoted to adding value to the human race - and your definition of value is highly subjective, looking only at economics or scientific discoveries is a very narrow window into the human experience.
- galaxyLogic 7y ago
  This is true. But in this case it seemed this was a very determined effort, not just a way to relax, but to actually strive to accomplish something during a 10 year's span. I believe such great determination would be better applied to something less virtual. 10 years is a large chunk of our life and you can accomplish lot in 10 years if you are determined.
lazyjones 7y ago
> I just wonder if it's just escapism, avoiding the challenges of the real world? It's more "low effort, high reward" compared to RL challenges in general, but games like EVE are not "low effort" at all. Perhaps it's the low physical effort and lack of real risk required that makes them so attractive.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  I think it's constrained outcomes -- you can mess up and still eat the next day. You can - for example - die in-game (most games) and re-spawn, reload, restart or whatever. The possible outcomes are known and constrained to what seems a non-damaging locus. Meanwhile progress is designed in, immediate (relative to real life) and palpable.
vbezhenar 7y ago
Reality is brutal and unforgiving. There's no justice or fairness. Nobody cares if you enjoy your life. Game is artificially made to abuse your instincts, to provide joy when you need it, to provide challenge when you need it.
imtringued 7y ago
The answer is that he probably has a day job that makes him more money than the average astronomy position. So your idea is producing simultaneously less value and less enjoyment.
theelous3 7y ago
Why read non academic books?

hyperpallium 7y ago

> it can be much more fun in the game than the real life Why is it more fun? We have innate motivations to explore, create, trade, communicate. But there's a lot of extra work surrounding it: Solving a coding problem is fun, but organizing and neatening and testing and documenting is not (as much). Creating value and trading it for money is fun, but trying to understand international tax law is not (as much). A government can harness innate productivity by stopping stopping it.

Aeolun 7y ago
Because blowing people up in real life has nasty consequences?

WhoBeI 7y ago

It's a bit odd to go solo in Eve and I'd agree that you probably don't get much out of it. The medium to large PvP side of the game includes a lot of planning and communication though which should translate decently into RL for the leaders at least. The main Goon FC of BR- talked about it at Eve Fanfest if you're curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oz4rzP-CAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oz4rzP-CAY

miguelmota 7y ago

why? It's simple; because it creates happiness to the player. Why did you type that comment? Maybe because it creates happiness to you in the form of intrinsic reward when your question is answered or you simply become happier when expressing your thoughts. It's all for feeling joy in the end. If you ask 'why' enough times to anything, you'll ultimately reach the conclusion that there no real deeper meaning to life so might as well live it in a happy way while you're here.

mirimir 7y ago
I'm more into "why not?".
- galaxyLogic 7y ago
  Right, why not do something more useful :-)
  - miguelmota 7y ago
    The term 'useful' here is open to interpretation; it'll mean something different to everybody

jupiter90000 7y ago

Why are you typing on HN when you could be doing a non zero sum activity?

b_tterc_p 7y ago

Effort in real life is often dull and has no effect on your outcomes. Video games have objective, measurable progress. If you want to be a high status individual, it’s relatively clear what you have to do.

maximente 7y ago

i would say there are 2 axes here: 1 is creation vs consumption continuum, where you have e.g. designing a course as an expert (you're likely to derive little value other than financial but has huge value adds to those interested) vs. watching tv (purely passive). so this is clearly not purely passive despite being a sort of passive activity, more towards active i'd say, which is healthier/more fulfilling imo. another is real life vs virtual life, which i think you're more interested in here. i personally agree in so far as i've "wasted" many years of my life on virtaul things (key differentiator) that were sort of fun, but when i look at what could have been with 10% of that time i just feel utter disgust. long story but no matter: it may be in 10 years time he feels the same, or not. obviously he kept a job and whatever else, so in some sense it's well earned leisure time.

em-bee 7y ago
why do we read fiction books? they are just as virtual as exploring the EVE universe (or playing any computer game) i would add a third dimension: how does the activity enrich my daily life. people watch TV to get informed, entertained or to unwind. if you explore EVE with the goal to get informed, you'll surely waste your time. but if it's entertaining/unwinding, then why not. it's visual fiction.
- maximente 7y ago
  not a bad line of thought, and covers some of the non pathological cases. but, we know these non-fiction book things are designed to be addictive (ladder climbing/achievement elements for games, timing elements for television, reward intervals for both) and so the pathological case is important to examine. key question then in this case is, imo: to what extent was this driven by pathological vs. non pathological behavior? in my personal case, which is why i have so much regret, is that it was so darn easy to plow more hours in, to the detriment of the rest of my life, due to the design of the game. if it's genuinely not for him, then i agree, not an issue. i would personally consider it exceptional however.
  - em-bee 7y ago

em-bee 7y ago

the elite: dangerous universe is actually modeled after the milky-way galaxy. of course a lot is guessing and speculation, but when new facts emerge, the game is actually being updated. ironically, contrary to its name, it appears that elite: dangerous is actually less PvP than EVE. and there are expedition groups with hundreds of ships to explore the galaxy that last months, or even years. "it gives a sense of the vastness of the galaxy" because while they use some form of FTL jump to make traveling those long distances possible it still can take some tens of minutes to travel within a solar system to get from one planet to another. i don't know how accurate their model is, but i believe of it is sufficiently close it can be a great learning experience.

egypturnash 7y ago

Sometimes you want a hobby free of conflict or challenge. A place to relax, not a place to learn and grow or make money. Maybe even an excuse to sit there and not really think about much of anything in particular for a while. Let your brain have some big slow thoughts while you watch imaginary space flow past your imaginary spaceship’s cockpit.

SHAKEDECADE 7y ago
Sometimes you want a hobby free of conflict or challenge. A place to relax Reminds me of stories I read about people who played Red Dead Redemption 2 purely for the chores and exploration of the land. ..not a place to learn and grow..Let your brain have some big slow thoughts.. When I do mind numbing chores like washing dishes, mowing the lawn, laundry; I can’t help but sit inside my head and have conversations with myself about whatever is deemed important at that moment. As insignificant as these micro chats may be, they’re growth. In turn, learning/experiencing myself to a deeper level. Two quotes come to mind: Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. -Oliver Wendell Holmes Baby steps, Bob. Baby steps. -Dr. Leo Marvin Each new experience, grande or otherwise builds our character.
unityByFreedom 7y ago
10 years seems a bit much.
- keyle 7y ago
  10 years only reflects how enjoyable and purposeful it's been. I don't think someone wastes 10 years of their lifes without enjoying the process somewhat a little.
- bdcravens 7y ago
  Depends. 90 minutes a day doesn't seem excessive to me - I know I spend more than 90 minutes many days on HN, and I've had my account almost ten years.

zamalek 7y ago

> Why... The severity of failure modes. In games you can just start a new character; in real life you are broke, or worse.

colechristensen 7y ago

What is real? I can create a business that does things only in computers and use the funds to buy other things only in computers, how is that different than a game? Games are life with an easy mode, and many things which are "not real" are just as fulfilling as things that are "real". Accumulating wealth is mostly just a game anyway once you have the basics covered, and when you start thinking about it too hard everything is equally unreal in that nothing has any worth outside your own arbitrary values.

feral 7y ago
If you don't have enough resources to eat or keep warm, that will feel pretty real, right? Loads of people don't have enough to get by. If the system is working properly, you should mostly be able to accumulate wealth only if you provide value to everyone else. That's the theory anyway. There's this meme I see on HN sometimes that every use of time is equally worthwhile, and that any value judgments are arbitrary. Highly skilled communities should value work that creates some value, above noodling around in games. I've played lots of games. But I know they aren't real, beyond helping me relax, or maybe learn skills that transfer out. I agree with the OP that we shouldn't spend all our effort in games. I'm similarly skeptical of things like the fashion industry, super professional sport etc too but that's just me :)
- deleted 7y ago
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- antepodius 7y ago
  >If the system is working properly, you should mostly be able to accumulate wealth only if you provide value to everyone else This is somewhat devil's advocate-ey, but what's to stop someone living off social benefits and accruing EVE online wealth? (Low ohysical standard of living/prestige, high virtual prestige) Modern MMO's aren't good enough to replace the real world- yet. When they are, some subset of the population will pop on their VR machines, plug in the feeding tubes, and that's it. Unless you want to get rid of social benefits/make social benefits actually dependent on trying to get a job, you can't really stop people doing this.

xvector 7y ago

> Your win is their loss, why because there is no real value created in the game after all. Value is subjective, and not everything revolves around money. All it takes is for someone to like the game and they’re good.

RenRav 7y ago

Videogame activities are universally more appealing than the real life versions. They are designed this way usually.

hoorayimhelping 7y ago

Answered quite literally in the article: >“People say, ya know, ‘Get a life,’ and ‘This is a waste of time,’” Sae continues. “They have to understand that I only did this for an hour and a half each day just to unwind after work. I wasn’t killing myself doing this.”

da_chicken 7y ago
I mean, if it's that or reality television....
- iamnotacrook 7y ago
  It's that or reading/chess/charity work though. Each to their own but objectively this is not going to appear as anything other than extremely sad and lonely to most people, even those who spend a lot of time playing computer games.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    Most people probably waste far more time than 90 minutes a day after work, HN posters included.
    - galaxyLogic 7y ago
      I think the point is that this was a very determined effort. If she had been as determined to achieve something in real life she would have made it surely and might now be happier and have more skills (and other forms of capital) that are useful in real life.
      - Apocryphon 7y ago
        Debatable. You’re projecting your own needs, interests, and worldview onto someone else.
JasonFruit 7y ago
It's true that there's an answer in the article, but it's not a really satisfying one. This is 1½ hours each day for ten years; that's about 5500 hours. Think what you could do with that time! In a thousand hours, you could build a high-performance airplane. Ten years of practicing a musical instrument 1½ hours a day, you could be performing on a very high level. You could be fluent in a foreign language, learn advanced math, become a skilled gunsmith, have written several books, or have read a couple thousand books. Or you could have poked around a video game. To me, and a lot of other people, there's a real opportunity cost this person has been willing to assume, and I'm not about to pretend I think it was worth it.

cheunste 7y ago

Escapism? The article said she plays around 90 minute each day after work. This is no different than how most people watch netflix after work to unwind. Its not like she spend ten ACTUAL years in the game like a hikikomori.

jodrellblank 7y ago

In real life you can make money by creating a corporation which is not a zero-sum game because it brings value to both the owners and workers of the company and its customers. What value does the creation of Eve Online bring to its customers, if they're never allowed to play it?

galaxyLogic 7y ago
> What value does the creation of Eve Online bring to its customers, if they're never allowed to play it? It does bring value to them the value of entertainment. But trying to accomplish something in real life would probably bring them more value in real life, why because that would then be what you are trying to accomplish. Value in real life. If you strive towards gaining some real-life value you are more likely to gain that than if you just strive to be entertained by a game and getting them game-points. Now some games allow you to turn the game-dollars into real dollars. But the dollars you gain are dollars someone else loses. It is zero sum. No actual new value is created, no actual useful things are created, no actual useful new knowledge is being gained or created. The only value created is entertainment and there's nothing wrong with that. But it might give you more satisfaction to actually accomplish something in real life with all that effort you're putting into the game. I'm not saying you do, but in general and in this case reported in the article.

wybiral 7y ago

You can apply this logic to all kinds of things though. Why waste time learning chess when you can join the military? Why type into a box on Hacker News when you can have conversations with people face-to-face? Why waste time watching any movie when you can do those kinds of things in real life? Why even bother with the abstract nonsense of money at all instead of just growing your own food and learning to make things for yourself. Different people get pleasure from different things and if you're going to judge one it seems weird not to do so evenly.

asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
It goes even deeper. Most of our drives are there simply because they made our ancestors more likely to survive or reproduce, therefore increasing the likelihood that those drives would be more common in subsequent generations. Some people seem to think that using an MMO is unnatural, but wouldn't even blink at the thought of, e.g., sex with birth control. But both are a subversion of the natural courses of the drives we've inherited from our ancestors. People whose chosen redirections of their own drives give them high social status -- the builders and commanders -- like to look down on those who choose activities that don't lead to power. IMO, this is conservation of ego, nothing more. We want to feel good about ourselves, so when we gain power beyond that which is required to propagate our genes, we say, "this is because I was a better person than that other guy." We don't like to acknowledge that we're just masturbating a slightly different way. IMO, the important question is whether playing an MMO actually fulfills your individual values. I know for me with EVE the answer was no, but that's not to say I can't picture an MMO that would. I would bet that for many currently playing it the answer is also no, because we do have addictions, us humans. But I wouldn't turn up my nose at the whole playerbase by any means. After all, who are we on this site to point fingers?
- galaxyLogic 7y ago
  > I wouldn't turn up my nose at the whole playerbase I don't think anybody's doing that. It's more like we should be asking questions about what is going on with this thing? Does it make sense that a lot of people spend so much time on it? Or does it not? Can the games be made better? How? If the games are good for the society at large then maybe tax-payer money should be used to support their further development. Would make sense right?

baby 7y ago

I always thought the same about pro guitar hero players. They could have been spending all that time learning a real guitar, and making music for real.

nsilvestri 7y ago
For the record, some of the very good Guitar Hero players (e.g. Acai) are rather competent with an actual guitar. But as an active GH and regular guitar player, comparing it to an actual guitar isn't fair. I enjoy playing actual guitar as an exercise in creativity. I play GH to enjoy music more interactively rather than creatively.
- grawprog 7y ago
  I never liked the guitar hero games. They're not much like playing a real guitar and every time i played them it just made me want to go play my guitar instead. Especially knowing how to actually play some of the songs in those games. The note patterns they used for the buttons didn't match up to how you actually played the songs. (Using the right most button for a note you'd actually use your middle or ring finger to play rather than your pinky for example)
  - billfruit 7y ago
    I got a very similar reaction with adult colouring books, when I tried one, I felt I should be rather doing my own drawing than just colouring in.
  - galaxyLogic 7y ago
    This may be the case with Eve-like games too. They may give you some idea of the cosmos but it may be misleading, involve improper shortcuts why because the PURPOSE is not to teach you something but entertain you. The purpose of GH is to make you think you can play like a real guitar hero, but based on your experience it seems like it doesn't really do that. GH COULD be better at teaching real guitar playing but I assume it is not better because it's purpose is not to teach but to get you addicted to the game.

Mikeb85 7y ago

Pretty much all forms of entertainment are escapism. What makes one better or worse? He could study astronomy for real, but let's face it, it's an impractical career and relies on barely existent funding.

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save_ferris 7y ago

So many people don't have the ability to study astronomy or start a company. Most Americans can't even afford a $500 surprise bill[0]. There's a lot for many people to escape these days, and the ability to be entrepreneurial is in itself a privilege that many simply don't have. I also find it somewhat ironic that you question the purpose of this form of entertainment created specifically by a company by suggesting that someone's time is perhaps better spent starting a company. This form of escapism exists because a company made it possible for people to escape. Clearly, you wonder if something is a bit crazy with these games, but have you ever wondered if the companies behind them actually provide value to their workers or customers? Starting a company isn't always a possibility or solution to people's problems, and not all companies provide value to society. In fact, some actively extract value from society. 0: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-cant-afford-a-500-emergency-expense/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-cant-afford-a-50...

amvalo 7y ago
> Most Americans can't even afford a $500 surprise bill[0]. EVE costs money wikipedia doesn't?
- ahje 7y ago
  When I played EVE it was perfectly possible (and allowed) to trade in-game currency for game time codes with other players. I assume they didn't remove that option.
  - amvalo 7y ago
    I assume the explore-every-corner-of-the-map thing he was doing made it hard to make money
    - ahje 7y ago
      Back then, nullsec was definitely dangerous, but it was also very profitable. It would probably require that you invest quite a lot of time, though that's true with everything in EVE.

doyoulikeworms 7y ago

There's more to life than achievements. An experience, however unreal it may be, is valuable to the person experiencing it, regardless of whether or not anything is achieved outside of the experience itself. It's only escapism if it's a problem. My 2 cents.

scarface74 7y ago

Why spend time posting on the internet instead of exploring the real world? Or just understand that different people have different preferences....

DoreenMichele 7y ago

I don't play this particular game, but I do play games. Here are some of my reasons. I'm medically handicapped. Sometimes I can't go anywhere. Playing games to occupy my mind helps me not go crazy. When I'm in a lot of pain, sometimes playing games is the best way to occupy myself because I can't inadvertently make an ass of myself. It's easy to come across poorly when you feel awful and telling people you feel awful is usually not taken to mean "I'm not trying to be rude." It's taken to mean "I'm entitled to be an ass because I have a good excuse." As I've grown stronger, playing gradually harder games has played a role in my recovery and rehabilitation. It helps me exercise my mind and keep working at various recovery goals in a low key fashion on my worst days. Playing games can be educational. I sometimes ditch games because I feel their mental models are a bad influence and I play a lot of games to educate myself about various things. "Idle hands are the devil's workshop." Keeping oneself harmlessly occupied can be a big improvement over fucking shit up because you are bored, frustrated, not at your best, etc. Mental occupation serves as distraction from pain and can be medically useful. I've read some things that indicate mental occupation can reduce the need for pain killers. In a world with 7 billion people and climate change, playing a game can be more environmentally responsible than "exploring the real world." There are plenty of tourists out there just trashing things in the name of Disnified, predigested "adventure."

galaxyLogic 7y ago
Good points, although your situation probably does not apply to most players. It is a striking point that games are a "pain killer". So games are like morphine opium or heroin. Many people need those at some point in their life, during a hospital visit, but not every day.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  People routinely cite the stat that 15% to 20% of the population is disabled or handicapped. But Microsoft did a study that didn't use stigmatizing terms like disabled or handicapped. They just asked about what things trip people up in day-to-day life and 60% of respondents indicated they had varying degrees of trouble with day-to-day tasks. My first-hand observation is that mildly impaired people actively eschew stigmatizing labels. If you aren't so severely impaired as to require accommodation to function at all, life works better if you don't find some stigmatizing label. Previous longer comment on that by me here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19811988#19815635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19811988#19815635 So I strongly suspect most people playing a lot of games have needs not unlike mine, they just are less severely impaired than I am. Furthermore, my final point -- about the value of getting your adventures in virtual form instead of absolutely trashing the planet to satisfy a desire for adventure -- potentially applies to anyone. I’ve Climbed Everest 21 Times. It’s Not the Mountain It Used to Be. https://newrepublic.com/article/154201/ive-climbed-everest-21-times-its-not-mountain-used-be https://newrepublic.com/article/154201/ive-climbed-everest-2... Tourism and environmental damage: How travellers are ruining the world http://www.traveller.com.au/tourism-and-environmental-damage-how-travellers-are-ruining-the-world-h0xcmo http://www.traveller.com.au/tourism-and-environmental-damage...

neumann 7y ago

As I get older, I have had a harder time losing myself in many forms of passive entertainment if I can see the author's - for lack of a better word - schtick. So, with games, movies, books, music and even paintings - if I my brain picks up the process first and isn't impressed or curious by that aspect, I lose interest. This is mostly common with movies and games, where the cost and expanse of the created world often require some level of formulas/trope. It is the inverse in a lot of music, where I am fascinated by the process and production a lot and can appreciate it at both levels more. Similarly with great TV - recently I watched season 2 of Fleabag and realised I was lost both in the story telling and in wonder/amazement at it's construction and execution. Before full time work and a kid, there was a certain amount of time I could afford to lose myself in another person's creation, but nowadays if I start seeing the scaffolding, I can't unsee it. For this reason I am also starting to be drawn back to the sciences. I sometimes worry that I am finding it hard to relate to a lot of art and human expression because of this, so I try to 'lose' myself in it - but so much art (and predominantly so many games) require a lot of scaffolding. Interested if anybody else can relate and share how they deal with this.

_cairn 7y ago
Disclaimer: I agree with you mostly. I think your comment is an almost complete argument against playing video games. I do think it's a little incomplete to say that things inside a game can't translate to real world value. i.e. people sell accounts/items/characters for fiat currency with some regularity. Is that net-profitable or not? Maybe. Is it possible that time investment could have been spent elsewhere? Yes. And probably for better ROI. But in terms of ways that exist in this world for people to waste time/money/resources. Games seem like a very mild offender. Overall your comment makes a lot of sense though. Thanks for taking the time to write a well-thought out response to OP. Have a nice day!
justanothersys 7y ago
If you go to art school or study the humanities then this process of getting turned off after becoming aware of a piece’s “scaffolding” or let’s say... algorithm, usually happens much faster. The first thing that happened to me was I became aware that there is a production quality bubble in commercial media that keeps most people sealed in and once that popped I got more and more interested in obscure art related films, music, scenes, etc. like the things you would find on ubu.com. A lot of my old art school friends are still in this edgy mode and they no longer respect any populist media. Somehow I’ve come full circle because I got bored once I started seeing the “scaffolding” in all the radical 20th century and contemporary stuff too. Now I just try to find the free space where people are developing something new and involve myself somehow either as an early spectator or a participant. To put it simply, if you start watching Netflix as an anthropologist then you might enjoy the scaffolding once again.

Noos 7y ago

Why not work a second job instead of playing video games? This is pretty much what you are saying. That sort of stuff is as much work as a anything, even if done in an amateur level.

Sebb767 7y ago
From the top of my head: - You can easily find an ingame-"Job" that's fun and fitting for you, which is not as easy in the real world - You don't have obligations (at least not in the beginning) - Success can be archived in a pretty much known way (i.e. leveling up, grinding that specific NPC for about n times ...) instead of the rather arbitrary and sometimes luck-depended way of being successful in real life
galaxyLogic 7y ago
> Why not work a second job instead of playing video games? No it's more like why not work for yourself instead of working for someone else, for some part of your time. Educate yourself. If you work for someone else you get paid but really you are working towards the goals of whoever pays you. Work towards your own goals instead. But if your goal is to visit all virtual galaxies in a single game produced by some specific game company ask yourself isn't there anything more worthwhile I can accomplish in 10 years? Relaxation is of course important but it is important in order to restore our strength to work on the real challenges in our life. Games are great just like amusement parks are great. Coney Island Baby!

mch82 7y ago

Alternatively, what if we structure the real world more like the game?

ezoe 7y ago

Your comment is all amazing but it makes me wonder if something is a bit crazy with these texts. Why writing on random articles comment when you could be writing a real essay by working as a professional writer? Why try to earn upvotes in these forum... I get bored.

hueving 7y ago
A professional writer hopefully takes more effort than an HN comment.

scotty79 7y ago

Why read fiction if you can learn history? Because history is just one of the fictions, not the most entertaining one, that by sheer accident sort of, kinda, more or less happened.

floatingatoll 7y ago

Real astronomy require training that virtually always costs money and time (with teachers who are often unwilling to work with variable time availability), a minimum of investment in specialty EM hardware components (such as binoculars, telescopes, or radio antennas), and an unobstructed view of the sky in whatever frequencies matter (visual, radio, whatever). Exploring in a video game suffers none of those barriers. Is it escapism if one’s life has no room (in time, in money, in attention span) for physical astronomy, but does have room for virtual astronomy — with its lower requirements at the cost of its unproductive result?

z3t4 7y ago

In real life you cant do much without depending on others. Good luck getting access to the Hubble space telescope or building one yourself.

randomsearch 7y ago

You wait until VR goes mainstream. That question is about to become central to much of life. And we’re really not so far away.

onion2k 7y ago
You wait until VR goes mainstream. How do you wait until never?
- randomsearch 7y ago
  Ha :-) in the 90s I remember thinking how much the Internet was going to revolutionise the world. I tried to explain to my parents that a revolution was coming that would change their lives. I was wrong, in one sense - the impact was far greater than I had envisaged. It was very difficult to imagine my parents having social media accounts and iPads back then. But now they do. I don’t see why VR will be any different. I think VR will be more disruptive than the internet (although synergistic) - the clue is in the name. An alternate reality is about as impactful as you can get.
  - onion2k 7y ago
    I think VR will be more disruptive than the internet The internet enabled new ways of doing things. There were things that were literally impossible before we were online. VR doesn't do that. It's great tech, it's very clever, it improves on whats there now but ultimately it's just a fancy monitor and a new sort of mouse. There's nothing that can be done VR that can't be done outside of VR. That is a very limiting factor for it's impact on the world.
    - randomsearch 7y ago
      So I see where we disagree, then. I do really think VR enables new possibilities, some of them I can think of but most beyond my imagination. Don’t want to further the argument, but at least we identified the point we diverge on! We’ll see. If you haven’t been to any kind of VR meet-up or hacking group, research lab or whatever, I’d recommend taking any opportunity to do so, as it might change your mind. An example I saw recently was research therapeutic use of VR in hospitals, with incredible effect sizes. And that kind of thing is just baby steps.

parksy 7y ago

Not everyone has the opportunity to become an astrophysicist, nor should everyone in the world become an astrophysicist. Many, many people staff the shops, factories, warehouses, mines, construction sites, farms and logistics chains society needs to function. Everyone needs a way to unwind, and finding an escape in a game that is set in an imaginary science fiction future is as valid as watching TV, surfing, or reading. Not every second of a person's life has to be devoted to adding value to the human race - and your definition of value is highly subjective, looking only at economics or scientific discoveries is a very narrow window into the human experience.

galaxyLogic 7y ago
This is true. But in this case it seemed this was a very determined effort, not just a way to relax, but to actually strive to accomplish something during a 10 year's span. I believe such great determination would be better applied to something less virtual. 10 years is a large chunk of our life and you can accomplish lot in 10 years if you are determined.

lazyjones 7y ago

> I just wonder if it's just escapism, avoiding the challenges of the real world? It's more "low effort, high reward" compared to RL challenges in general, but games like EVE are not "low effort" at all. Perhaps it's the low physical effort and lack of real risk required that makes them so attractive.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
I think it's constrained outcomes -- you can mess up and still eat the next day. You can - for example - die in-game (most games) and re-spawn, reload, restart or whatever. The possible outcomes are known and constrained to what seems a non-damaging locus. Meanwhile progress is designed in, immediate (relative to real life) and palpable.

vbezhenar 7y ago

Reality is brutal and unforgiving. There's no justice or fairness. Nobody cares if you enjoy your life. Game is artificially made to abuse your instincts, to provide joy when you need it, to provide challenge when you need it.

imtringued 7y ago

The answer is that he probably has a day job that makes him more money than the average astronomy position. So your idea is producing simultaneously less value and less enjoyment.

theelous3 7y ago

Why read non academic books?