24 ms·

Coffee Cups Are Next

211 points by petethomas 8y ago

chriselles 8y ago
I have to admit that while our family is as conscientious as we can be with plastic use and recycling, I have a weak spot for coffee cups/lids. When visiting the US recently I found the recycled paper lids quite distasteful, in the literal sense. For me, kicking the coffee cup/lid will be a bit harder than other forms of sustainability.
- kohtatsu 8y ago
  How about a reusable cup? $0.10 off at Starbucks.
  - electricslpnsld 8y ago
    When I was living in Portland it was super common for people to bring their own mugs (usually those metal camping style cups with closable tops, but I'd see plastic cups too) to coffee shops. The baristas would usually blast them with some steam to clean them out then fill 'em up! Easy as pie.
  - WheelsAtLarge 8y ago
    This is my preference. My coffee cup keeps my drink hot way longer than any disposable one can and I would save a dime. Win, win, from my view.
- dontbenebby 8y ago
  OTOH it seems like less coffee shops offer mugs for in-house drinking nowadays. Takeaway is harder but there's no reason not to use mugs if you're staying in the store.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    In the UK there is a chain called Costa where the in-house mug only comes in one size, and it's a thimble - much smaller than the larger take-away cup. So you end up asking for a take-away cup even though you're staying in and they have mugs available.
    - HeWhoLurksLate 8y ago
      So you're saying the replacement has to be good or people won't use it? That's preposterous! /s
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - chrisseaton 8y ago
        Sorry for sharing.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  Compostable plastic coffee cup lids work just fine. There is no good reason for disposable food containers to not be biodegradable. Consumers can afford the extra 1¢ or whatever. Many of the coffeeshops in SF use only compostable cups/lids.
- yongjik 8y ago
  Well, in my case, I find paper coffee cups make the coffee taste much worse, so I make a habit of using mug cups whenever possible.
- denkmoon 8y ago
  If only there were some kind of reusable coffee cup that did not suffer from such issues.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
First they came for plastic bags. Then they came for straws. Coffee cups are next. Straws are a hot button topic in disabled circles.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  What’s wrong with paper (or biodegradable plastic) straws, besides costing an extra penny or whatever?
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    Some disabled people are allergic to paper. There are probably other issues. I'm not personally up in arms about it, but then I have yet to be directly impacted.
    - jacobolus 8y ago
      If someone has a serious medical reason to need a particular kind of straw, it seems like restaurants could carry a few to provide on request (any legal ban could figure out some exception for this case), or the person could carry their own straw around.
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        Maybe you are familiar with Spoon Theory? Disabled people who are up in arms about straws typically argue that it's yet one more burden on them when they have too many as is. I'm not well versed on the straws issues. But let's talk about the California bag ban for a minute. I've lived without a car for over a decade. I also have a compromised immune system. Disposable plastic bags are cleaner than reusable shopping bags. I almost never buy trash bags. I use my shopping bags as trash bags. I don't feel guilty about needing and wanting plastic shopping bags for convenience and germ control. The bag ban presumes you can just stick your stuff in your shopping cart, take it out to the trunk of your car and drive it home. It is a burden for poor people, pedestrians and folks using public transit. There is no limit on rich people paying the extra 10 cents per bag to have all the bags they want. It's based on an assumption that you have a car and money and will not give up your car. It actively punishes serious environmental activists actually willing to live without a car. Getting more people to walk would do more good, imo.
lopmotr 8y ago
Surely plastic waste is a local problem for only some places? America has no shortage of empty land for landfills, but perhaps India or Singapore has more of a struggle to put it all somewhere. I live in a country with plenty of wasteland close to my city, and the landfills are well managed to prevent leaching, but people are still really passionate about not using them for plastic. Nobody seems to be able to explain why except to refer to the Pacific garbage patch, which isn't caused by us because our landfills are on land and not spilling into the sea (except that one time when a flooded river broke one open).
- chomp 8y ago
  >Nobody seems to be able to explain why except to refer to the Pacific garbage patch, which isn't caused by us It's probably caused by us in part. The US ships a huge amount of trash to Asia. [1] In fact, recycling as we know it in many places in the US only works by shipping it to Asia. For example, my city had problems when China created new recycling processing rules, which altered the economics of its recycling program. [2] Its been shown that shipping this stuff over the Pacific isn't a totally clean process. When trash goes to Asian countries, it can fall off the container ships. And the receiving country doesn't have any standards on processing. Impurities can be tossed to the ocean with the country's regular garbage. But yes, Asian countries count for the lion's share of trash in the Pacific. [3] [1] https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/05/plastic-waste-china-ban-united-states-america/ https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/05/plastic-waste-ch... [2] https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Can-sputtering-recycling-market-find-a-second-13505492.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Can-sputte... [3] https://science.sciencemag.org/content/347/6223/768 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/347/6223/768
  - balfirevic 8y ago
    So... If you want to help the environment, you should not separate your plastic waste and instead put it with the general garbage so it ends up safely in a landfill. Honestly, I myself can't tell if I'm serious.
  - lopmotr 8y ago
umeshunni 8y ago
Maybe Berkeley should spend this energy in fixing its homelessness, crime and housing issues rather than pointless environmental virtue signaling.
- mattigames 8y ago
  Maybe you don't know but people around the world like to point to SF as examples of places that prohibited plastic bottles, maybe for locals the real issues are the ones you mention but in the big picture to stop using one-time plastics and similar pollutants are the real issues.
  - stevenjohns 8y ago
    As an Australian, I have images of homelessness whenever SF is mentioned. I didn't even know that SF prohibited plastic bottles and I've never heard anyone say that. I'd also take a position that homelessness is the real issue in SF and not disposable coffee cup usage. EDIT: reading about the plastic bottle ban in SF[0], it appears that it's very limited > The new regulations prohibit the sale of plastic bottles at events held on city-owned property. Additionally, government agencies may not purchase bottled water. > Private businesses such as grocery stores and mini markets may continue to sell bottled water in the city. To date, little data exists on how the regulations have reduced overall plastic bottle use. [0] https://theecologist.org/2019/apr/03/san-francisco-bans-sale-plastic-bottles https://theecologist.org/2019/apr/03/san-francisco-bans-sale...
    - loeg 8y ago
      > As an Australian, I have images of homelessness whenever SF is mentioned. I didn't even know that SF prohibited plastic bottles and I've never heard anyone say that. Ditto, but I'm from Washington (just a hop and a skip across Oregon from California).
    - omegabravo 8y ago
      > homelessness is the real issue in SF and not disposable coffee cup usage. We can work on improving both problems as the same time quite easily.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
So why can't we spend all this money we're wasting debating what plastic stuff to ban figuring out how to recycle these things instead? (or down-cycle, plastic contaminated paper pulp from cups seems like a natural fit for filter media)
- WheelsAtLarge 8y ago
  Plastic is hard to recycle since there are multiple types and there can be multiple types in one product. Also generally the recycled plastic is not as strong and usable as the original type and it's more expensive. Recycling plastic is not the answer. Most of the recycling claims by companies with the exception of aluminum is used as a way to make consumers feel better about using and trashing a product.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    But we're not talking about recycling plastic. We're talking about products that can be recycled that are contaminated with plastic (e.g. plastic bags that clog up machines and plastic liners for paper products that presumably contaminate the paper pulp). It's a materials handling problem. It should be solvable.
- frankbreetz 8y ago
  Recycling doesn't work. I recently read that only 10 % of plastic gets recycled. Recycling is just a way to pass responsibility onto the customer. Bans and regulations require the corporations to fix this problem.
SapporoChris 8y ago
I was in Seoul last month. The McDonalds there had plastic coffee mugs and there was a bin for the mugs where the trays are returned and trash is disposed. Of course, normal disposable cup was available for to go orders. The major issue is cost of course. Disposable cups are a cheap solution. As long as they remain cheap and there are not other compelling reasons, few companies are going to be making any changes. I've heard this time and again here. It's worth reiterating, put the cost of the pollution on the manufacturer, then changes will occur.
- WheelsAtLarge 8y ago
  The simple and impactful solution is charging for the cup. Here in CA, we have to pay 10 cents per grocery bag . I could buy a few thousand of them over my lifetime and it would not impact me very much but somehow I can't get myself to pay the 10 cents, since it's going to end up in the trash, so I carry my reusable bags to the store all the time. A solution that would really work would be to band cities from exporting their trash to other cities without regards as to how it gets disposed. People would find a way to recycle. But I know it's wishful thinking.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    But what bags do you use in your wastebaskets???
    - dannyw 8y ago
      I just buy a plastic bag. Wait. I’m not sure if this whole thing reduces any plastic or pollution...
      - WheelsAtLarge 8y ago
        It does help. The real problem with plastic is that it's ending up all over the environment. It's very easy for plastic to fly/fall into areas where no one can access it or is managing it. Sending plastic to landfills at least keeps the plastic in one place away from polluting the whole world. It's not an ideal solution but it helps. Yes, getting rid of plastic is best but containing it to one place even if you have to use plastic bags helps.
dharma1 8y ago
What's the best reusable travel mug you've used? Easy to wash, good looking, lightweight, durable. Those stainless steel double wall ones any good?
- caf 8y ago
  Easily this one: https://www.thermos.com/drink/mugs-tumblers/genuine-thermos-brand-stainless-king-vacuum-insulated-stainless-steel-travel-tumbler-16oz.html https://www.thermos.com/drink/mugs-tumblers/genuine-thermos-...
  - sehugg 8y ago
    Yeah, these seem to get less filthy than Yeti tumblers. For those who tend to take small sips at regular intervals, insulated is the way to go.
  - dharma1 8y ago
    bought one, thanks! 50 year warranty, now that's what I like to see with products
- remir 8y ago
  I bought a Contigo stainless steel travel mug at some big box store and was really impressed. Coffee stays hot for a long time.
- PascLeRasc 8y ago
  I love my Zojirushi mug. The latching mechanism is super cool, it's easy to clean, and super nice-feeling materials.
deleted 8y ago
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Camillo 8y ago
I honestly don't see why this is a problem. I use my straw, or my coffee cup, or whatever, and I throw it in a trash can. It's not going to hurt any marine mammals unless you, the city government, go and dump it into the sea. So don't do that. If you can no longer put your trash on a barge to China, put it on a train instead and bury it somewhere in the enormous deserts that cover one third of the country. I don't want to hear about how every single square inch of the desert is infinitely precious and irreplaceable, either. When the US needed to test nuclear weapons, they took a chunk of desert they didn't care about and nuked it. Just take another chunk, and put garbage in it! Maybe use the same chunk, it's been 70 years, it's probably fine now. Anyway, leave me alone.
- chapium 8y ago
  The paper is compostable but the styrofoam cup or plastic lid is made from a limited resource.
- defterGoose 8y ago
  Nothing, whatever, could be wrong with me. The world must be as it is, logically. Why try to improve? And if you say we must, I'll question, flail, pout, and then call it unjust. Don't tell me it's my fault, for I just got here. I'll blame it on past people, maybe a peer. My life is just fine, and if others' are not, Well, life's just unfair, they deserve what they got! Do it for children, you'll say, and I'll sneer, How could I harm someone that isn't yet here? I cant be to blame for what their life might be. What have future generations e'er done for me? I'll mine all the minerals, cut down all the trees. Bespoil the air, then move on to the seas. What difference make it? I've earned what I've got, and nothing was given for which I've not fought. And isn't this precisely what Darwin taught? May the best man win, and take all of the pot! I'm captain, o captain of this ship called home. But I'm tired and hot now. Please, leave me alone.
  - topmonk 8y ago
    The guy has a point, and all you do is dodge and shame. Landfills take a tiny portion of space in the US. Why are we so concerned?
alexvaut 8y ago
What about returning refillable standard cups ? You return them dirty, starbucks/mac do wash them and everytime you want a coffee you get a clean one. It existed in France for glass bottles in the last century, it's still like that in Belgium for beers (and works very well). I don't see any problem to apply it for coffee. You can even think of little stickers of the brand from where you get your coffee, those stickers will be removed in the washing process. So if the big names can agree on few cup design/material and a washing process/logistic, they will have a very durable cup!
- mises 8y ago
  This will not happen; each firm will benefit from only accepting their own proprietary cups. Also, what about sizes?
  - 14 8y ago
    One could also build a business making a printer that prints the company labels on the glass but washes off during the cleaning process. Water based paint or something environmentally friendly. So they could still differentiate their products at the store.
  - belltaco 8y ago
    This is where regulation can step in, like how the EU regulated standard phone chargers.
    - wemdyjreichert 8y ago
      As far as I'm aware, the most the EU has done is look closely at doing it (most recently in 2018). One could argue that Lightning ports are better (particularly when compared to micro usb), and Apple seems to be slowly switching to usb-c. A standard charger would a. prohibit fast charging technologies or b. "pick the winner" with respect to such technologies. It would almost certainly slow or halt the use of newer fast charging technologies, higher bandwidth connections, etc. as they were created. I understand bottles are different, but I felt a bit of a need to mention what a bad idea the phone charger thing was. "Design by committee" is a pejorative for a reason. Also, knowing governments, they would do something crazy like mandate the standard soda cup to be small (see NYC).
caf 8y ago
This article was entirely worth it just for this bit of (little-known, at least to me!) information buried in a footnote: Compostables need the free flow of air to break down. Because landfills are sealed to prevent leakage, even a cup designed to break down quickly doesn't get the air circulation it needs to do so.
pg_bot 8y ago
If you don't think the people who work at these companies care about making better cups, read the following article.[0] There is a big opportunity for making a better disposable cup, but there are many engineering hurdles to jump over. - The cup has to retail for 17 cents. - It has to support a lid that is resealable. - It has to tip over and not spill. - It has to handle high temperatures. - It can't alter the taste of the liquid inside. - It has to be biodegradable. - It can't catastrophically fail if the liquid is left inside for too long. Seems like a tough challenge to me. [0]: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/315159 https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/315159
- zeta0134 8y ago
  It's worth pointing out that the obvious alternative, reusable to-go cups, need to solve an additional set of challenges: - Must NOT violate sanitization of the work area; cups provided by customers should not pose any health risks to workers or other customers. - Should be durable enough to survive repeated visits - Either the reusable cup must conform to a standard size, baristas need a way to measure liquids consistently without in-cup guides, or coffee could be sold by volume... - Reusable cups should not introduce enough delay to appreciably disrupt the flow of customers Disposable cups have the great advantage of being standardized by the company and solve a lot of these problems, especially the health problems. This is just off the top of my head, I'm sure I'm missing some other great points. This is a much harder problem than it appears on the surface; the devil's in the details.
  - pg_bot 8y ago
    From what I've read the reusables have to be used ~70 times to be more environmentally friendly than the current disposables. I think the easiest win would be designating between sit down and take out customers. Sit down customers could be given porcelain or some other washable container. However this would increase labor costs for businesses so you don't automatically get a free win.
    - jdavis703 8y ago
      I’ve been searching for this data for a while. Mind sharing your sources?
mises 8y ago
I'm not sure I like this trend. Who really wants to carry around an empty coffee cup wherever he goes? Or a metal straw? Or re-useable bags? Utensils will be next. There is a reason we have so much disposable stuff: unparalleled convenience.
- wutbrodo 8y ago
  Pretending to be ignorant of externalities doesn't mean they stop existing
  - pishpash 8y ago
    The solution is to create better conveniences, not to ban them like luddites and go back to the 18th century. Also, first world problems. Also, despite first world problems, first world has other more important problems that should be solved, like drug addicts, homelessness, and crime, maybe the people's council should focus on that instead of this?
    - freehunter 8y ago
      That's the solution, yes. But without an incentive, we'll never get there. The first step towards creating an incentive is to make it economically unfeasible to not have an incentive. It's not like people will stop drinking coffee, they'll demand an alternative and one will be created. If a plastic cup costs $0.17 and a biodegradable cup costs $0.18, businesses and consumers will choose plastic. Making plastic slightly more expensive than the healthier alternative creates that pressure so the market will come up with better options. Cleaning up waste costs money, money that the maker of the cup doesn't pay. Money that Starbucks doesn't pay. Money that the consumer doesn't pay. It's only cheaper at the cost of the person who has to clean up the waste. Plastic is heavily subsidized by not having to pay for its own cleanup.
    - wutbrodo 8y ago
      I don't see how any of your comment is relevant to any of mine, which was a pushback against the GP comment's recommendation to focus on local cost/benefit and feign ignorance of externalities
bayareanative 8y ago
Get something like a Mighty Mug and no more throwing away single-use cups.
Humphrey 8y ago
Most of the coffee shops that I frequent offer an AUD 50c (US 35c) discount if you bring your own reusable cup. It works well!
- quickthrower2 8y ago
  And they'll sell you a AUD$25 reusable cup.
the_hoser 8y ago
I wonder if they could use the same model my local growler fill uses. You pay a deposit on the growler, and if you bring it back (don't worry about cleaning it or anything), you don't pay the deposit on the next 64oz of beer. Maybe charge a $5 or $10 cup deposit?
chasedehan 8y ago
As an economist I love this. People respond to incentives and making the decision visible, not making it a tax by letting the coffee shops keep the surcharge, and making it possible to keep prices the same (including the surcharge) is frankly a well designed law/experiment.
- xondono 8y ago
  It's certainly a surprise for a government to go this route, though I'm not that optimistic. If I understand it correctly, it just means that the surcharge needs to appear in the price listing, so I'd assume that customers will quickly learn to filter out that from their daily lives.
jwlake 8y ago
My favorite coffee shop in LA, barnine.us uses glass canning jars for to-go. You bring back a dozen for a free drink. Totally ridiculously infeasible for non-boutique shops though.
- defterGoose 8y ago
  You should try Balconi! Not super far from Bar Nine and better coffee/price, IMO. They specialize in siphon to-order and make mean espresso as well.
satori99 8y ago
A former workplace of mine mandated that no-one was allowed to use re-usable coffee mugs at all. This was done because of the mass of dirty, moldy cups that seemed to fill every kitchenette in a multi-floor building. The business was a media organization and it seemed to me like reporters were the worst culprits. The company provided styrofoam cups which were consumed at a enormous rate, and this was deemed to be a better solution than trying to get journalists to rinse their cups.
- cstrat 8y ago
  This just hurts to read... It is almost as bad as the somewhat inexplicable growth in bottled water in places where tap water is perfectly acceptable. In fact many of the branded bottles of water are not spring water but bottled tap water.
  - bsaul 8y ago
    this story i keep hearing about tap water beeing just as good as bottle one is really starting to get on my nerves. people don’t spend their money and carry huge loads of water bottles if they can have the equivalent for « free » at home. If they do it’s because the tap water infrastructure (as a whole, up to the kitchen’s tap) alter the taste and quality of the water badly enough, even in the cases where the original source is of comparable quality.
    - kristopolous 8y ago
      Then put a $50 filter at the tap and you're good for probably $25,000 of bottled water. It's marketing that drives the preference. That's why most chronic bottled water drinkers I know surround their life with other bullshit irrelevant products. It's the same mechanics
      - bubblewrap 8y ago
        Filters seem like a lot of hassle, though. You have to keep them clean and exchange them on a regular basis. I don't really trust that solution.
abootstrapper 8y ago
For starters Starbucks (and others) could offer and encourage the use of “for here” glasses. My local Starbucks has a few “for here” mugs, but no glasses for cold drinks. Seems like low hanging fruit there.
mc32 8y ago
Disposable cups at least are usually mostly paper... except for the cold drinks of the ones with fuzzy insulation. Deal with disposable water bottles. And while we’re at it the proliferation of Amazon shipping boxes.
- baroffoos 8y ago
  Disposable coffee cups and there lids seem to make up most of the trash I see on the side of the road. Fast food boxes and cups being the other major one.
bogomipz 8y ago
If anyone is looking for a good reusable coffee mug solution I've been quite pleased with the Zojirushi vacuum-insulated mugs.[1] They keep your coffee hot for 6 hours, they don't seem to impart much if any of a taste on the coffee, they're easy to clean and they can really take a beating. Ergonomically it's pretty well thought out. They have a switch mechanism that can either flip the lid open or lock it with a push of the thumb. It also works equally well for keeping ice coffee or water cold. [1] https://www.zojirushi.com/app/product/smkc https://www.zojirushi.com/app/product/smkc I would be interested in hearing what other people are using.
colordrops 8y ago
I'm curious what percentage of non-biodegradable waste is from cups and straws. I suspect there are much bigger fish to fry. It would be a bit more work and coordination but it seems that a standard set of 30-50 different metal/ceramic containers could serve most packaging purposes at grocery stores. If marketing/branding is an issue, some soy or other non-toxic ink could be used to print labels and decoration on the packaging with each re-use.
- megaremote 8y ago
  It is not always about the biggest, but easiest to replace. When getting people to do something they do not want to do, that is what you aim for. Also doing what is possible, as to the impossible.
  - omegabravo 8y ago
    Generally in Australia, environmental initiatives are welcomed. We have sorted waste bins, banned plastic bags, banned single use straws, and recently coffee cups have been a source of attention. I don't have any figures, but every person I work with has a reusable coffee cup. Keep Cups [1] are a very popular option. Unfortunately a portion of the population resist any sort of change, which is rather natural I guess. Change is hard and the youth in this country are typically setting a good example. A documentary called The War On Waste [2] had a very convincing show on Coffee Cups. This has had a decent impact on the population from my perspective. The mindset change is probably worth while if this thread is anything to go by. I was rather surprised that there are so many negative comments in this thread. There has been an obvious and substantial shift towards being mindful of your impact on the environment in Australia which is very welcoming. This scene from Mad Men (57sec) [3] shows how previous habits are no longer acceptable behaviour. [1] https://keepcup.com/ https://keepcup.com/ [2] https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/the-chasers-craig-reucassel-busts-huge-coffee-myth-in-war-on-waste-20170223-gujkph.html https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/the-chaser... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDIvzDGBLWU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDIvzDGBLWU
  - michaelt 8y ago
robertAngst 8y ago
The alternative- Customers make their own coffee? Instead of driving to a starbucks, they- make coffee at home/work? Is the taste of starbucks that much better that we need to drive to it, use all these extra materials, in the name of our morning drug Caffeine?
- gnicholas 8y ago
  It is worth considering the likely second-order effects of this policy. For example, will people who buy Starbucks/Dunkin just use pod machines more frequently instead? Will they buy a coffee machine and make coffee at home, using a single filter for one cup? What are the environmental impacts of these behaviors? I am especially poorly-positioned to answer these questions since I am not a coffee drinker, but it would probably be a good idea for policymakers to figure out how people will react to a policy like this. Otherwise we might end up with a poorly-target policy that either doesn't make things better (on net) or actually makes things worse.
Spooky23 8y ago
I get plastic bags... they are a nuisance that cause alotmof problems. But the coffee cup thing is just dumb, probably less useful than even the plastic straw crusade. There is close to zero actual biodegrading happening in landfills. Just tax the underlying soft drinks if you have a beef with cup consumption.
tamaharbor 8y ago
The availability of clean water will eventually become a big problem. How will continually washing cups help anything?
ClassyJacket 8y ago
Good. They are a plague. However, I admit that occasionally, if I've forgotten my cup or couldn't bring it, I still use them. Rarely, but it happens. The solution I want to see, for both coffee cups and shopping bags - is reusable shared containers. I don't want to have to bring my bags to the supermarket. It's not just a matter of laziness or forgetfulness - sure, sometimes I forget. But it's also a matter of ability. Sometimes I want to buy food on the way home from work, but I don't drive there and it's not really practical to bring my reusable bags every time. Let me pay a deposit to take some reusable bags with me, then let me just bring them all back at once and get a refund. Coffee cups are a bit harder since they need to be washed, but I'm sure there's a solution.
- zikzak 8y ago
  Shopping bags need to be washed, too. Meat juices, being set down on dirty surfaces (bus stop, muddy driveway), left for a week in a house with pests or vermin, etc. Most people are not going to want to reuse someone else's reusable bag without laundering.
  - DangitBobby 8y ago
    The crux of all of these issues is that we want the benefits of containers without the consequences. Well, we're learning that you have to deal with it at some point, be it the occasional washing or mountains of trash. People are going to have to just suck it up about reusing things. As long as it's safe, people's feelings about perceived ickiness will go away once the practice is normalized. And eventually we won't even remember how convenient it was to just throw things away.
    - defterGoose 8y ago
      This soooooo much. 'But Ma Freedoms™!?!?'
  - kristopolous 8y ago
    Flipping it inside out every time would solve most of these problems. The scraps would come out and thinks would get a chance to evaporate. It's not a luxury product solution, sure. But if I was traveling to a poor country and everyone was doing it, I'd consider it clever and just go along with it.
mattlondon 8y ago
Ask HN: Would a disposable metal cup be totally out of the question? Something like a coke can without the ring pull lid? With a lip around the rim I can't imagine them being any more flimsy than paper cups. The lid and sleeve could be 100% biodegradable since their time of contact with hot liquids is minimal, and the cups themselves could have a 25c/p deposit scheme to dissuade litter/promote collection of discarded cups. They must be cheap enough to produce en mass for coke/Pepsi et al, and I recently learnt that metal cans are apparently much better for the environment than plastic since they can apparently be recycled nearly an infinite amount of times (easy to mechanically sort too) compared to plastic and paper that can only be recycled a handful of times before degrading too much for reuse. Just looked on Alibaba and you can get reusable rigid steel cups for less than a dollar a piece in quantities of 1000. Seems like the price for single-use recyclable steel/ALU cups getting gown to the 17-20c (apparently what a paper cup costs) range would not be out of the question?
- julianozen 8y ago
  Wouldn’t this be pretty hot to hold?
  - mattlondon 8y ago
    Paper cups are hot to hold too - I don't think 0.5mm of paper is a particularly great insulator, at least in my experience. A 100% biodegradable and easily removable (not glued) cardboard sleeve would do the trick like it does with a paper cup I reckon.
marcus_holmes 8y ago
good call. While we're doing that, can we deal with the coffee pod things too, please?
seer 8y ago
I always feel weird reading all the drama regarding waste management in US. Of all countries I would have thought they would understand market economics the most. If cleaning up waste is an externality, can’t you add in the price of that cleaning into the thing itself, thus doing that would be an economic activity in and off itself. For example a plastic cup costs 1c to produce, but 1 dollar to clean up. Well can’t you force the price to be 1.01 and be done with it. then if you clean up after yourself you can “get that deposit back” or if you don’t care for it - someone will, because it would earn them a dollar? I think Germany has a system like that and I’ve heard that it works for them - both socially and in that it keeps things clean. Though I’ve not been there personally to verify.
- jillesvangurp 8y ago
  Yes, Germany has deposits on bottles and cans. E.g. small plastic coke bottles will have something like a 15c deposit. People tend to leave them around for homeless people to collect when they are on the go. It's a nice thing to do. All super markets have collection points where you get your deposit back as a receipt that you can cash in when paying for your groceries. The system works pretty well and it's pretty common for homeless people to show up there with bags full of bottles that they've collected. They have another system at big beer festivals and beer gardens where people prefer to drink their beverages in glasses. Beer in plastic cups is just not acceptable here. These glasses have a deposit as well and you swap them for a clean and full one when you get a new drink and when you are done you get your deposit back when you return the glass. This could work for coffee cups too. Just charge a dollar or so for a proper mug and simply put them in the dishwasher when people return them and give them a clean one. Only charge the deposit when they don't return one. Drinking from a proper mug is a superior drinking experience in any case.
dagss 8y ago
The US still uses landfills? Around here (Northern Europe) (non-recycled) garbage has been burned for heat & electricity for a long time. Garbage is sometimes shipped between cities for this purpose (i.e. purchased) I always assumed garbage was valuable in this way and that use of landfills was due to unavailable tech at the time. But perhaps the burning of garbage must be subsidized/have a high cost for processors...
mirimir 8y ago
One can get collapsible stainless cups. On key-chains. For hot liquids, you must hold just the rim. And be very careful not to collapse them.
Fnoord 8y ago
Dopper. Bottle and cup two-in-one. I got two (both ltd. ed.). The 2nd one is larger and insulated, and holds warm liquid for 9 hours, cold for a day. Great if you want to bring your own (herbal) tea to work. (Can't drink too much coffee.)
leowoo91 8y ago
That's mostly related to "hot" coffee, right?
flarg 8y ago
By using disposable cups, aren't coffee shops extracting value from the environment but not paying for the privilege? Surely the correct answer is to ban disposable cups and let the market decide who survives? My local sit down cafe does very well with reusable ceramic mugs. Why should the likes of Starbucks get special financial assistance from the environment when the cafe doesn't need it?
- madeofpalk 8y ago
  > My local sit down cafe does very well with reusable ceramic mugs For takeaway coffee?
- OscarCunningham 8y ago
  Better yet, determine the level of damage caused by a disposable cup and charge a tax large enough to repair the damage. If people still decide to use disposable cups then we won't care since we'll have the money.
cmroanirgo 8y ago
In my country (oz) there's been a general trend toward byo cups, mainly pushed through via a brand: keep cup [0]. To my knowledge it started several years ago in Melbourne and spread to the other cities. Many coffee shops these days have either keep cups, white labelled keep cups, or other style. Now that baristas are used to it, it's less of a hassle for them and is pretty much accepted in lots of places. In my area, maybe one in 5 customers bring their own... Many shops also give a discount for byo because their cost of a cup is gone. [0] https://au.keepcup.com/ https://au.keepcup.com/
hannob 8y ago
With reusable cups I have observed a psychological barrier with myself. I was unwilling to use it when it felt "awkward" (i.e. I'm likely the only person asking to use my own cup the whole day). However lately it became more common (I live in Germany), more shops offer discounts if you bring your own cup, more likely that the person in front of you also has a reusable cup.
carlob 8y ago
As a European I really don't get take-out cups, in most Western Europe there are two options: either you have the 3 minutes it takes to sip on a cappuccino or hot tea, or you drink an espresso standing (both in a ceramic cup). If you see someone walking around with a pint of hot beverage, it's a safe bet they are American. I heard some American friend that it's part of American culture to control climate: drinks must be piping hot in winter and full of ice cubes in summer. Everyone has to look like they are in a hurry and everything has to be BIG. Combine these things and to-go insulated cups become a cultural phenomenon. Then again it's funny that in Western Europe alcoholic drinks to go are totally a thing and people love drinking beer on a lawn when it's nice outside. Again, cultural differences... EDIT: I was thinking mostly about Italy, France, Spain, Benelux, but Austria has a pretty solid café culture too.
- ahartmetz 8y ago
  Paper cups for take-out coffee are pretty big in Germany, I can tell you. I used to use them pretty often and sometimes still do when I don't have my reusable plastic cup with me.
- exodus_de 8y ago
  Where the hell are you from "as a European"? In Germany you can get a take-out almost anywhere they sell coffee. Vending machines are ubiquitous. It's not just for "Americans". Having a coffee takes more than three minutes, especially if it's still hot. People don't necessarily have that kind of time in the morning. Or maybe they prefer to drink their coffee at a different place than where they purchased it.
  - carlob 8y ago
    I'm in Italy, but I've seen it throughout Southwestern Europe. If you are in Rome or in Paris, to-go coffee is advertised exclusively in English and cannot be found outside of tourist hubs. FWIW vending machines are popular here too, but they use small plastic cups with no lid.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
samuell 8y ago
I think there is an easy solution: More expensive (like USD 1) foldable cups, that are expensive enough that people will actually re-use them. In Sweden we have a model I like a lot, which is a modern, foldable version of a traditional saami drinking vissel called "kåsa": https://www.dentakit.com/foldingcup.html https://www.dentakit.com/foldingcup.html They are often sold in hiking / outdoor shops etc. I'm sure someone could create a nice version suitable for take-away coffee.
jamesb93 8y ago
To me this thread encapsulates why over engineering is bad. We don't need complex solutions to the problem of re-usable cups. We don't need an external company that will sanitise a returnable mug for you. The solution is right in front of everyone - buy a reusable container/mug/cup, fill it up, clean it when you're done. It isn't hard.
- goostavos 8y ago
  It is hard if you're lazy and irresponsible, like me. I wager the world is filled with people like me, this, I'm counting on "over engineering" to save me.
t24532 8y ago
I want my disposable straws, cups, plates, and utensils. Please stop telling me how to live.
solatic 8y ago
In our office, it's not an issue that people don't wash their cups out, because our building has a cleaning crew and they wash the cups for us. Why is that so difficult? If you operate a coffee shop and don't want your customers to give you dirty coffee cups, make it easier for your customers to give you clean cups. That means having some kind of customer-facing sink or washing station towards which a sign directs customers to wash their mugs, regardless of whether they are already clean since we all know different people have different standards for cleanliness. If you have co-workers who ride their bikes to work, we don't hem and haw over how smelly bike riders are going to be on hot summer days and how there's gotta be some alternative to them riding their bikes. Instead, we install on-premises showers. Bike riders are happy to take showers when they arrive. The showers are kept clean by the facility's cleaning crew. Everybody's happy. Why is this so complicated?
Monica_Thompson 8y ago
All plastic must die. I wonder how feasible biodegradable tires would be? Seeing steps in the right direction is exhilarating, in my opinion.
purplezooey 8y ago
Maybe we could get a commercial with some posthumous Charlton Heston footage saying... you can pry that coffee cup... from my cold dead hands
Jasmine_Hubbard 8y ago
What's after coffee cups, I'm curious? There's a lot of plastic in the world and it's good to see some steps towards taking it out of production as well as cleaning it from the environment.

211 points by petethomas 8y ago

I have to admit that while our family is as conscientious as we can be with plastic use and recycling, I have a weak spot for coffee cups/lids. When visiting the US recently I found the recycled paper lids quite distasteful, in the literal sense. For me, kicking the coffee cup/lid will be a bit harder than other forms of sustainability.

kohtatsu 8y ago
How about a reusable cup? $0.10 off at Starbucks.
- electricslpnsld 8y ago
  When I was living in Portland it was super common for people to bring their own mugs (usually those metal camping style cups with closable tops, but I'd see plastic cups too) to coffee shops. The baristas would usually blast them with some steam to clean them out then fill 'em up! Easy as pie.
- WheelsAtLarge 8y ago
  This is my preference. My coffee cup keeps my drink hot way longer than any disposable one can and I would save a dime. Win, win, from my view.
dontbenebby 8y ago
OTOH it seems like less coffee shops offer mugs for in-house drinking nowadays. Takeaway is harder but there's no reason not to use mugs if you're staying in the store.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  In the UK there is a chain called Costa where the in-house mug only comes in one size, and it's a thimble - much smaller than the larger take-away cup. So you end up asking for a take-away cup even though you're staying in and they have mugs available.
  - HeWhoLurksLate 8y ago
    So you're saying the replacement has to be good or people won't use it? That's preposterous! /s
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      Sorry for sharing.
jacobolus 8y ago
Compostable plastic coffee cup lids work just fine. There is no good reason for disposable food containers to not be biodegradable. Consumers can afford the extra 1¢ or whatever. Many of the coffeeshops in SF use only compostable cups/lids.
yongjik 8y ago
Well, in my case, I find paper coffee cups make the coffee taste much worse, so I make a habit of using mug cups whenever possible.
denkmoon 8y ago
If only there were some kind of reusable coffee cup that did not suffer from such issues.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

First they came for plastic bags. Then they came for straws. Coffee cups are next. Straws are a hot button topic in disabled circles.

jacobolus 8y ago
What’s wrong with paper (or biodegradable plastic) straws, besides costing an extra penny or whatever?
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  Some disabled people are allergic to paper. There are probably other issues. I'm not personally up in arms about it, but then I have yet to be directly impacted.
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    If someone has a serious medical reason to need a particular kind of straw, it seems like restaurants could carry a few to provide on request (any legal ban could figure out some exception for this case), or the person could carry their own straw around.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      Maybe you are familiar with Spoon Theory? Disabled people who are up in arms about straws typically argue that it's yet one more burden on them when they have too many as is. I'm not well versed on the straws issues. But let's talk about the California bag ban for a minute. I've lived without a car for over a decade. I also have a compromised immune system. Disposable plastic bags are cleaner than reusable shopping bags. I almost never buy trash bags. I use my shopping bags as trash bags. I don't feel guilty about needing and wanting plastic shopping bags for convenience and germ control. The bag ban presumes you can just stick your stuff in your shopping cart, take it out to the trunk of your car and drive it home. It is a burden for poor people, pedestrians and folks using public transit. There is no limit on rich people paying the extra 10 cents per bag to have all the bags they want. It's based on an assumption that you have a car and money and will not give up your car. It actively punishes serious environmental activists actually willing to live without a car. Getting more people to walk would do more good, imo.

lopmotr 8y ago

Surely plastic waste is a local problem for only some places? America has no shortage of empty land for landfills, but perhaps India or Singapore has more of a struggle to put it all somewhere. I live in a country with plenty of wasteland close to my city, and the landfills are well managed to prevent leaching, but people are still really passionate about not using them for plastic. Nobody seems to be able to explain why except to refer to the Pacific garbage patch, which isn't caused by us because our landfills are on land and not spilling into the sea (except that one time when a flooded river broke one open).

chomp 8y ago
>Nobody seems to be able to explain why except to refer to the Pacific garbage patch, which isn't caused by us It's probably caused by us in part. The US ships a huge amount of trash to Asia. [1] In fact, recycling as we know it in many places in the US only works by shipping it to Asia. For example, my city had problems when China created new recycling processing rules, which altered the economics of its recycling program. [2] Its been shown that shipping this stuff over the Pacific isn't a totally clean process. When trash goes to Asian countries, it can fall off the container ships. And the receiving country doesn't have any standards on processing. Impurities can be tossed to the ocean with the country's regular garbage. But yes, Asian countries count for the lion's share of trash in the Pacific. [3] [1] https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/05/plastic-waste-china-ban-united-states-america/ https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/05/plastic-waste-ch... [2] https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Can-sputtering-recycling-market-find-a-second-13505492.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Can-sputte... [3] https://science.sciencemag.org/content/347/6223/768 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/347/6223/768
- balfirevic 8y ago
  So... If you want to help the environment, you should not separate your plastic waste and instead put it with the general garbage so it ends up safely in a landfill. Honestly, I myself can't tell if I'm serious.
- lopmotr 8y ago

umeshunni 8y ago

Maybe Berkeley should spend this energy in fixing its homelessness, crime and housing issues rather than pointless environmental virtue signaling.

mattigames 8y ago
Maybe you don't know but people around the world like to point to SF as examples of places that prohibited plastic bottles, maybe for locals the real issues are the ones you mention but in the big picture to stop using one-time plastics and similar pollutants are the real issues.
- stevenjohns 8y ago
  As an Australian, I have images of homelessness whenever SF is mentioned. I didn't even know that SF prohibited plastic bottles and I've never heard anyone say that. I'd also take a position that homelessness is the real issue in SF and not disposable coffee cup usage. EDIT: reading about the plastic bottle ban in SF[0], it appears that it's very limited > The new regulations prohibit the sale of plastic bottles at events held on city-owned property. Additionally, government agencies may not purchase bottled water. > Private businesses such as grocery stores and mini markets may continue to sell bottled water in the city. To date, little data exists on how the regulations have reduced overall plastic bottle use. [0] https://theecologist.org/2019/apr/03/san-francisco-bans-sale-plastic-bottles https://theecologist.org/2019/apr/03/san-francisco-bans-sale...
  - loeg 8y ago
    > As an Australian, I have images of homelessness whenever SF is mentioned. I didn't even know that SF prohibited plastic bottles and I've never heard anyone say that. Ditto, but I'm from Washington (just a hop and a skip across Oregon from California).
  - omegabravo 8y ago
    > homelessness is the real issue in SF and not disposable coffee cup usage. We can work on improving both problems as the same time quite easily.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

So why can't we spend all this money we're wasting debating what plastic stuff to ban figuring out how to recycle these things instead? (or down-cycle, plastic contaminated paper pulp from cups seems like a natural fit for filter media)

WheelsAtLarge 8y ago
Plastic is hard to recycle since there are multiple types and there can be multiple types in one product. Also generally the recycled plastic is not as strong and usable as the original type and it's more expensive. Recycling plastic is not the answer. Most of the recycling claims by companies with the exception of aluminum is used as a way to make consumers feel better about using and trashing a product.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  But we're not talking about recycling plastic. We're talking about products that can be recycled that are contaminated with plastic (e.g. plastic bags that clog up machines and plastic liners for paper products that presumably contaminate the paper pulp). It's a materials handling problem. It should be solvable.
frankbreetz 8y ago
Recycling doesn't work. I recently read that only 10 % of plastic gets recycled. Recycling is just a way to pass responsibility onto the customer. Bans and regulations require the corporations to fix this problem.

SapporoChris 8y ago

I was in Seoul last month. The McDonalds there had plastic coffee mugs and there was a bin for the mugs where the trays are returned and trash is disposed. Of course, normal disposable cup was available for to go orders. The major issue is cost of course. Disposable cups are a cheap solution. As long as they remain cheap and there are not other compelling reasons, few companies are going to be making any changes. I've heard this time and again here. It's worth reiterating, put the cost of the pollution on the manufacturer, then changes will occur.

WheelsAtLarge 8y ago
The simple and impactful solution is charging for the cup. Here in CA, we have to pay 10 cents per grocery bag . I could buy a few thousand of them over my lifetime and it would not impact me very much but somehow I can't get myself to pay the 10 cents, since it's going to end up in the trash, so I carry my reusable bags to the store all the time. A solution that would really work would be to band cities from exporting their trash to other cities without regards as to how it gets disposed. People would find a way to recycle. But I know it's wishful thinking.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  But what bags do you use in your wastebaskets???
  - dannyw 8y ago
    I just buy a plastic bag. Wait. I’m not sure if this whole thing reduces any plastic or pollution...
    - WheelsAtLarge 8y ago
      It does help. The real problem with plastic is that it's ending up all over the environment. It's very easy for plastic to fly/fall into areas where no one can access it or is managing it. Sending plastic to landfills at least keeps the plastic in one place away from polluting the whole world. It's not an ideal solution but it helps. Yes, getting rid of plastic is best but containing it to one place even if you have to use plastic bags helps.

dharma1 8y ago

What's the best reusable travel mug you've used? Easy to wash, good looking, lightweight, durable. Those stainless steel double wall ones any good?

caf 8y ago
Easily this one: https://www.thermos.com/drink/mugs-tumblers/genuine-thermos-brand-stainless-king-vacuum-insulated-stainless-steel-travel-tumbler-16oz.html https://www.thermos.com/drink/mugs-tumblers/genuine-thermos-...
- sehugg 8y ago
  Yeah, these seem to get less filthy than Yeti tumblers. For those who tend to take small sips at regular intervals, insulated is the way to go.
- dharma1 8y ago
  bought one, thanks! 50 year warranty, now that's what I like to see with products
remir 8y ago
I bought a Contigo stainless steel travel mug at some big box store and was really impressed. Coffee stays hot for a long time.
PascLeRasc 8y ago
I love my Zojirushi mug. The latching mechanism is super cool, it's easy to clean, and super nice-feeling materials.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Camillo 8y ago

I honestly don't see why this is a problem. I use my straw, or my coffee cup, or whatever, and I throw it in a trash can. It's not going to hurt any marine mammals unless you, the city government, go and dump it into the sea. So don't do that. If you can no longer put your trash on a barge to China, put it on a train instead and bury it somewhere in the enormous deserts that cover one third of the country. I don't want to hear about how every single square inch of the desert is infinitely precious and irreplaceable, either. When the US needed to test nuclear weapons, they took a chunk of desert they didn't care about and nuked it. Just take another chunk, and put garbage in it! Maybe use the same chunk, it's been 70 years, it's probably fine now. Anyway, leave me alone.

chapium 8y ago
The paper is compostable but the styrofoam cup or plastic lid is made from a limited resource.
defterGoose 8y ago
Nothing, whatever, could be wrong with me. The world must be as it is, logically. Why try to improve? And if you say we must, I'll question, flail, pout, and then call it unjust. Don't tell me it's my fault, for I just got here. I'll blame it on past people, maybe a peer. My life is just fine, and if others' are not, Well, life's just unfair, they deserve what they got! Do it for children, you'll say, and I'll sneer, How could I harm someone that isn't yet here? I cant be to blame for what their life might be. What have future generations e'er done for me? I'll mine all the minerals, cut down all the trees. Bespoil the air, then move on to the seas. What difference make it? I've earned what I've got, and nothing was given for which I've not fought. And isn't this precisely what Darwin taught? May the best man win, and take all of the pot! I'm captain, o captain of this ship called home. But I'm tired and hot now. Please, leave me alone.
- topmonk 8y ago
  The guy has a point, and all you do is dodge and shame. Landfills take a tiny portion of space in the US. Why are we so concerned?

alexvaut 8y ago

What about returning refillable standard cups ? You return them dirty, starbucks/mac do wash them and everytime you want a coffee you get a clean one. It existed in France for glass bottles in the last century, it's still like that in Belgium for beers (and works very well). I don't see any problem to apply it for coffee. You can even think of little stickers of the brand from where you get your coffee, those stickers will be removed in the washing process. So if the big names can agree on few cup design/material and a washing process/logistic, they will have a very durable cup!

mises 8y ago
This will not happen; each firm will benefit from only accepting their own proprietary cups. Also, what about sizes?
- 14 8y ago
  One could also build a business making a printer that prints the company labels on the glass but washes off during the cleaning process. Water based paint or something environmentally friendly. So they could still differentiate their products at the store.
- belltaco 8y ago
  This is where regulation can step in, like how the EU regulated standard phone chargers.
  - wemdyjreichert 8y ago
    As far as I'm aware, the most the EU has done is look closely at doing it (most recently in 2018). One could argue that Lightning ports are better (particularly when compared to micro usb), and Apple seems to be slowly switching to usb-c. A standard charger would a. prohibit fast charging technologies or b. "pick the winner" with respect to such technologies. It would almost certainly slow or halt the use of newer fast charging technologies, higher bandwidth connections, etc. as they were created. I understand bottles are different, but I felt a bit of a need to mention what a bad idea the phone charger thing was. "Design by committee" is a pejorative for a reason. Also, knowing governments, they would do something crazy like mandate the standard soda cup to be small (see NYC).

caf 8y ago

This article was entirely worth it just for this bit of (little-known, at least to me!) information buried in a footnote: Compostables need the free flow of air to break down. Because landfills are sealed to prevent leakage, even a cup designed to break down quickly doesn't get the air circulation it needs to do so.

pg_bot 8y ago

If you don't think the people who work at these companies care about making better cups, read the following article.[0] There is a big opportunity for making a better disposable cup, but there are many engineering hurdles to jump over. - The cup has to retail for 17 cents. - It has to support a lid that is resealable. - It has to tip over and not spill. - It has to handle high temperatures. - It can't alter the taste of the liquid inside. - It has to be biodegradable. - It can't catastrophically fail if the liquid is left inside for too long. Seems like a tough challenge to me. [0]: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/315159 https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/315159

zeta0134 8y ago
It's worth pointing out that the obvious alternative, reusable to-go cups, need to solve an additional set of challenges: - Must NOT violate sanitization of the work area; cups provided by customers should not pose any health risks to workers or other customers. - Should be durable enough to survive repeated visits - Either the reusable cup must conform to a standard size, baristas need a way to measure liquids consistently without in-cup guides, or coffee could be sold by volume... - Reusable cups should not introduce enough delay to appreciably disrupt the flow of customers Disposable cups have the great advantage of being standardized by the company and solve a lot of these problems, especially the health problems. This is just off the top of my head, I'm sure I'm missing some other great points. This is a much harder problem than it appears on the surface; the devil's in the details.
- pg_bot 8y ago
  From what I've read the reusables have to be used ~70 times to be more environmentally friendly than the current disposables. I think the easiest win would be designating between sit down and take out customers. Sit down customers could be given porcelain or some other washable container. However this would increase labor costs for businesses so you don't automatically get a free win.
  - jdavis703 8y ago
    I’ve been searching for this data for a while. Mind sharing your sources?

mises 8y ago

I'm not sure I like this trend. Who really wants to carry around an empty coffee cup wherever he goes? Or a metal straw? Or re-useable bags? Utensils will be next. There is a reason we have so much disposable stuff: unparalleled convenience.

wutbrodo 8y ago
Pretending to be ignorant of externalities doesn't mean they stop existing
- pishpash 8y ago
  The solution is to create better conveniences, not to ban them like luddites and go back to the 18th century. Also, first world problems. Also, despite first world problems, first world has other more important problems that should be solved, like drug addicts, homelessness, and crime, maybe the people's council should focus on that instead of this?
  - freehunter 8y ago
    That's the solution, yes. But without an incentive, we'll never get there. The first step towards creating an incentive is to make it economically unfeasible to not have an incentive. It's not like people will stop drinking coffee, they'll demand an alternative and one will be created. If a plastic cup costs $0.17 and a biodegradable cup costs $0.18, businesses and consumers will choose plastic. Making plastic slightly more expensive than the healthier alternative creates that pressure so the market will come up with better options. Cleaning up waste costs money, money that the maker of the cup doesn't pay. Money that Starbucks doesn't pay. Money that the consumer doesn't pay. It's only cheaper at the cost of the person who has to clean up the waste. Plastic is heavily subsidized by not having to pay for its own cleanup.
  - wutbrodo 8y ago
    I don't see how any of your comment is relevant to any of mine, which was a pushback against the GP comment's recommendation to focus on local cost/benefit and feign ignorance of externalities

bayareanative 8y ago

Get something like a Mighty Mug and no more throwing away single-use cups.

Humphrey 8y ago

Most of the coffee shops that I frequent offer an AUD 50c (US 35c) discount if you bring your own reusable cup. It works well!

quickthrower2 8y ago
And they'll sell you a AUD$25 reusable cup.

the_hoser 8y ago

I wonder if they could use the same model my local growler fill uses. You pay a deposit on the growler, and if you bring it back (don't worry about cleaning it or anything), you don't pay the deposit on the next 64oz of beer. Maybe charge a $5 or $10 cup deposit?

chasedehan 8y ago

As an economist I love this. People respond to incentives and making the decision visible, not making it a tax by letting the coffee shops keep the surcharge, and making it possible to keep prices the same (including the surcharge) is frankly a well designed law/experiment.

xondono 8y ago
It's certainly a surprise for a government to go this route, though I'm not that optimistic. If I understand it correctly, it just means that the surcharge needs to appear in the price listing, so I'd assume that customers will quickly learn to filter out that from their daily lives.

jwlake 8y ago

My favorite coffee shop in LA, barnine.us uses glass canning jars for to-go. You bring back a dozen for a free drink. Totally ridiculously infeasible for non-boutique shops though.

defterGoose 8y ago
You should try Balconi! Not super far from Bar Nine and better coffee/price, IMO. They specialize in siphon to-order and make mean espresso as well.

satori99 8y ago

A former workplace of mine mandated that no-one was allowed to use re-usable coffee mugs at all. This was done because of the mass of dirty, moldy cups that seemed to fill every kitchenette in a multi-floor building. The business was a media organization and it seemed to me like reporters were the worst culprits. The company provided styrofoam cups which were consumed at a enormous rate, and this was deemed to be a better solution than trying to get journalists to rinse their cups.

cstrat 8y ago
This just hurts to read... It is almost as bad as the somewhat inexplicable growth in bottled water in places where tap water is perfectly acceptable. In fact many of the branded bottles of water are not spring water but bottled tap water.
- bsaul 8y ago
  this story i keep hearing about tap water beeing just as good as bottle one is really starting to get on my nerves. people don’t spend their money and carry huge loads of water bottles if they can have the equivalent for « free » at home. If they do it’s because the tap water infrastructure (as a whole, up to the kitchen’s tap) alter the taste and quality of the water badly enough, even in the cases where the original source is of comparable quality.
  - kristopolous 8y ago
    Then put a $50 filter at the tap and you're good for probably $25,000 of bottled water. It's marketing that drives the preference. That's why most chronic bottled water drinkers I know surround their life with other bullshit irrelevant products. It's the same mechanics
    - bubblewrap 8y ago
      Filters seem like a lot of hassle, though. You have to keep them clean and exchange them on a regular basis. I don't really trust that solution.

abootstrapper 8y ago

For starters Starbucks (and others) could offer and encourage the use of “for here” glasses. My local Starbucks has a few “for here” mugs, but no glasses for cold drinks. Seems like low hanging fruit there.

mc32 8y ago

Disposable cups at least are usually mostly paper... except for the cold drinks of the ones with fuzzy insulation. Deal with disposable water bottles. And while we’re at it the proliferation of Amazon shipping boxes.

baroffoos 8y ago
Disposable coffee cups and there lids seem to make up most of the trash I see on the side of the road. Fast food boxes and cups being the other major one.

bogomipz 8y ago

If anyone is looking for a good reusable coffee mug solution I've been quite pleased with the Zojirushi vacuum-insulated mugs.[1] They keep your coffee hot for 6 hours, they don't seem to impart much if any of a taste on the coffee, they're easy to clean and they can really take a beating. Ergonomically it's pretty well thought out. They have a switch mechanism that can either flip the lid open or lock it with a push of the thumb. It also works equally well for keeping ice coffee or water cold. [1] https://www.zojirushi.com/app/product/smkc https://www.zojirushi.com/app/product/smkc I would be interested in hearing what other people are using.

colordrops 8y ago

I'm curious what percentage of non-biodegradable waste is from cups and straws. I suspect there are much bigger fish to fry. It would be a bit more work and coordination but it seems that a standard set of 30-50 different metal/ceramic containers could serve most packaging purposes at grocery stores. If marketing/branding is an issue, some soy or other non-toxic ink could be used to print labels and decoration on the packaging with each re-use.

megaremote 8y ago
It is not always about the biggest, but easiest to replace. When getting people to do something they do not want to do, that is what you aim for. Also doing what is possible, as to the impossible.
- omegabravo 8y ago
  Generally in Australia, environmental initiatives are welcomed. We have sorted waste bins, banned plastic bags, banned single use straws, and recently coffee cups have been a source of attention. I don't have any figures, but every person I work with has a reusable coffee cup. Keep Cups [1] are a very popular option. Unfortunately a portion of the population resist any sort of change, which is rather natural I guess. Change is hard and the youth in this country are typically setting a good example. A documentary called The War On Waste [2] had a very convincing show on Coffee Cups. This has had a decent impact on the population from my perspective. The mindset change is probably worth while if this thread is anything to go by. I was rather surprised that there are so many negative comments in this thread. There has been an obvious and substantial shift towards being mindful of your impact on the environment in Australia which is very welcoming. This scene from Mad Men (57sec) [3] shows how previous habits are no longer acceptable behaviour. [1] https://keepcup.com/ https://keepcup.com/ [2] https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/the-chasers-craig-reucassel-busts-huge-coffee-myth-in-war-on-waste-20170223-gujkph.html https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/the-chaser... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDIvzDGBLWU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDIvzDGBLWU
- michaelt 8y ago

robertAngst 8y ago

The alternative- Customers make their own coffee? Instead of driving to a starbucks, they- make coffee at home/work? Is the taste of starbucks that much better that we need to drive to it, use all these extra materials, in the name of our morning drug Caffeine?

gnicholas 8y ago
It is worth considering the likely second-order effects of this policy. For example, will people who buy Starbucks/Dunkin just use pod machines more frequently instead? Will they buy a coffee machine and make coffee at home, using a single filter for one cup? What are the environmental impacts of these behaviors? I am especially poorly-positioned to answer these questions since I am not a coffee drinker, but it would probably be a good idea for policymakers to figure out how people will react to a policy like this. Otherwise we might end up with a poorly-target policy that either doesn't make things better (on net) or actually makes things worse.

Spooky23 8y ago

I get plastic bags... they are a nuisance that cause alotmof problems. But the coffee cup thing is just dumb, probably less useful than even the plastic straw crusade. There is close to zero actual biodegrading happening in landfills. Just tax the underlying soft drinks if you have a beef with cup consumption.

tamaharbor 8y ago

The availability of clean water will eventually become a big problem. How will continually washing cups help anything?

ClassyJacket 8y ago

Good. They are a plague. However, I admit that occasionally, if I've forgotten my cup or couldn't bring it, I still use them. Rarely, but it happens. The solution I want to see, for both coffee cups and shopping bags - is reusable shared containers. I don't want to have to bring my bags to the supermarket. It's not just a matter of laziness or forgetfulness - sure, sometimes I forget. But it's also a matter of ability. Sometimes I want to buy food on the way home from work, but I don't drive there and it's not really practical to bring my reusable bags every time. Let me pay a deposit to take some reusable bags with me, then let me just bring them all back at once and get a refund. Coffee cups are a bit harder since they need to be washed, but I'm sure there's a solution.

zikzak 8y ago
Shopping bags need to be washed, too. Meat juices, being set down on dirty surfaces (bus stop, muddy driveway), left for a week in a house with pests or vermin, etc. Most people are not going to want to reuse someone else's reusable bag without laundering.
- DangitBobby 8y ago
  The crux of all of these issues is that we want the benefits of containers without the consequences. Well, we're learning that you have to deal with it at some point, be it the occasional washing or mountains of trash. People are going to have to just suck it up about reusing things. As long as it's safe, people's feelings about perceived ickiness will go away once the practice is normalized. And eventually we won't even remember how convenient it was to just throw things away.
  - defterGoose 8y ago
    This soooooo much. 'But Ma Freedoms™!?!?'
- kristopolous 8y ago
  Flipping it inside out every time would solve most of these problems. The scraps would come out and thinks would get a chance to evaporate. It's not a luxury product solution, sure. But if I was traveling to a poor country and everyone was doing it, I'd consider it clever and just go along with it.

mattlondon 8y ago

Ask HN: Would a disposable metal cup be totally out of the question? Something like a coke can without the ring pull lid? With a lip around the rim I can't imagine them being any more flimsy than paper cups. The lid and sleeve could be 100% biodegradable since their time of contact with hot liquids is minimal, and the cups themselves could have a 25c/p deposit scheme to dissuade litter/promote collection of discarded cups. They must be cheap enough to produce en mass for coke/Pepsi et al, and I recently learnt that metal cans are apparently much better for the environment than plastic since they can apparently be recycled nearly an infinite amount of times (easy to mechanically sort too) compared to plastic and paper that can only be recycled a handful of times before degrading too much for reuse. Just looked on Alibaba and you can get reusable rigid steel cups for less than a dollar a piece in quantities of 1000. Seems like the price for single-use recyclable steel/ALU cups getting gown to the 17-20c (apparently what a paper cup costs) range would not be out of the question?

julianozen 8y ago
Wouldn’t this be pretty hot to hold?
- mattlondon 8y ago
  Paper cups are hot to hold too - I don't think 0.5mm of paper is a particularly great insulator, at least in my experience. A 100% biodegradable and easily removable (not glued) cardboard sleeve would do the trick like it does with a paper cup I reckon.

marcus_holmes 8y ago

good call. While we're doing that, can we deal with the coffee pod things too, please?

seer 8y ago

I always feel weird reading all the drama regarding waste management in US. Of all countries I would have thought they would understand market economics the most. If cleaning up waste is an externality, can’t you add in the price of that cleaning into the thing itself, thus doing that would be an economic activity in and off itself. For example a plastic cup costs 1c to produce, but 1 dollar to clean up. Well can’t you force the price to be 1.01 and be done with it. then if you clean up after yourself you can “get that deposit back” or if you don’t care for it - someone will, because it would earn them a dollar? I think Germany has a system like that and I’ve heard that it works for them - both socially and in that it keeps things clean. Though I’ve not been there personally to verify.

jillesvangurp 8y ago
Yes, Germany has deposits on bottles and cans. E.g. small plastic coke bottles will have something like a 15c deposit. People tend to leave them around for homeless people to collect when they are on the go. It's a nice thing to do. All super markets have collection points where you get your deposit back as a receipt that you can cash in when paying for your groceries. The system works pretty well and it's pretty common for homeless people to show up there with bags full of bottles that they've collected. They have another system at big beer festivals and beer gardens where people prefer to drink their beverages in glasses. Beer in plastic cups is just not acceptable here. These glasses have a deposit as well and you swap them for a clean and full one when you get a new drink and when you are done you get your deposit back when you return the glass. This could work for coffee cups too. Just charge a dollar or so for a proper mug and simply put them in the dishwasher when people return them and give them a clean one. Only charge the deposit when they don't return one. Drinking from a proper mug is a superior drinking experience in any case.

dagss 8y ago

The US still uses landfills? Around here (Northern Europe) (non-recycled) garbage has been burned for heat & electricity for a long time. Garbage is sometimes shipped between cities for this purpose (i.e. purchased) I always assumed garbage was valuable in this way and that use of landfills was due to unavailable tech at the time. But perhaps the burning of garbage must be subsidized/have a high cost for processors...

mirimir 8y ago

One can get collapsible stainless cups. On key-chains. For hot liquids, you must hold just the rim. And be very careful not to collapse them.

Fnoord 8y ago

Dopper. Bottle and cup two-in-one. I got two (both ltd. ed.). The 2nd one is larger and insulated, and holds warm liquid for 9 hours, cold for a day. Great if you want to bring your own (herbal) tea to work. (Can't drink too much coffee.)

leowoo91 8y ago

That's mostly related to "hot" coffee, right?

flarg 8y ago

By using disposable cups, aren't coffee shops extracting value from the environment but not paying for the privilege? Surely the correct answer is to ban disposable cups and let the market decide who survives? My local sit down cafe does very well with reusable ceramic mugs. Why should the likes of Starbucks get special financial assistance from the environment when the cafe doesn't need it?

madeofpalk 8y ago
> My local sit down cafe does very well with reusable ceramic mugs For takeaway coffee?
OscarCunningham 8y ago
Better yet, determine the level of damage caused by a disposable cup and charge a tax large enough to repair the damage. If people still decide to use disposable cups then we won't care since we'll have the money.

cmroanirgo 8y ago

In my country (oz) there's been a general trend toward byo cups, mainly pushed through via a brand: keep cup [0]. To my knowledge it started several years ago in Melbourne and spread to the other cities. Many coffee shops these days have either keep cups, white labelled keep cups, or other style. Now that baristas are used to it, it's less of a hassle for them and is pretty much accepted in lots of places. In my area, maybe one in 5 customers bring their own... Many shops also give a discount for byo because their cost of a cup is gone. [0] https://au.keepcup.com/ https://au.keepcup.com/

hannob 8y ago

With reusable cups I have observed a psychological barrier with myself. I was unwilling to use it when it felt "awkward" (i.e. I'm likely the only person asking to use my own cup the whole day). However lately it became more common (I live in Germany), more shops offer discounts if you bring your own cup, more likely that the person in front of you also has a reusable cup.

carlob 8y ago

As a European I really don't get take-out cups, in most Western Europe there are two options: either you have the 3 minutes it takes to sip on a cappuccino or hot tea, or you drink an espresso standing (both in a ceramic cup). If you see someone walking around with a pint of hot beverage, it's a safe bet they are American. I heard some American friend that it's part of American culture to control climate: drinks must be piping hot in winter and full of ice cubes in summer. Everyone has to look like they are in a hurry and everything has to be BIG. Combine these things and to-go insulated cups become a cultural phenomenon. Then again it's funny that in Western Europe alcoholic drinks to go are totally a thing and people love drinking beer on a lawn when it's nice outside. Again, cultural differences... EDIT: I was thinking mostly about Italy, France, Spain, Benelux, but Austria has a pretty solid café culture too.

ahartmetz 8y ago
Paper cups for take-out coffee are pretty big in Germany, I can tell you. I used to use them pretty often and sometimes still do when I don't have my reusable plastic cup with me.
exodus_de 8y ago
Where the hell are you from "as a European"? In Germany you can get a take-out almost anywhere they sell coffee. Vending machines are ubiquitous. It's not just for "Americans". Having a coffee takes more than three minutes, especially if it's still hot. People don't necessarily have that kind of time in the morning. Or maybe they prefer to drink their coffee at a different place than where they purchased it.
- carlob 8y ago
  I'm in Italy, but I've seen it throughout Southwestern Europe. If you are in Rome or in Paris, to-go coffee is advertised exclusively in English and cannot be found outside of tourist hubs. FWIW vending machines are popular here too, but they use small plastic cups with no lid.
  - pjmlp 8y ago

samuell 8y ago

I think there is an easy solution: More expensive (like USD 1) foldable cups, that are expensive enough that people will actually re-use them. In Sweden we have a model I like a lot, which is a modern, foldable version of a traditional saami drinking vissel called "kåsa": https://www.dentakit.com/foldingcup.html https://www.dentakit.com/foldingcup.html They are often sold in hiking / outdoor shops etc. I'm sure someone could create a nice version suitable for take-away coffee.

jamesb93 8y ago

To me this thread encapsulates why over engineering is bad. We don't need complex solutions to the problem of re-usable cups. We don't need an external company that will sanitise a returnable mug for you. The solution is right in front of everyone - buy a reusable container/mug/cup, fill it up, clean it when you're done. It isn't hard.

goostavos 8y ago
It is hard if you're lazy and irresponsible, like me. I wager the world is filled with people like me, this, I'm counting on "over engineering" to save me.

t24532 8y ago

I want my disposable straws, cups, plates, and utensils. Please stop telling me how to live.

solatic 8y ago

In our office, it's not an issue that people don't wash their cups out, because our building has a cleaning crew and they wash the cups for us. Why is that so difficult? If you operate a coffee shop and don't want your customers to give you dirty coffee cups, make it easier for your customers to give you clean cups. That means having some kind of customer-facing sink or washing station towards which a sign directs customers to wash their mugs, regardless of whether they are already clean since we all know different people have different standards for cleanliness. If you have co-workers who ride their bikes to work, we don't hem and haw over how smelly bike riders are going to be on hot summer days and how there's gotta be some alternative to them riding their bikes. Instead, we install on-premises showers. Bike riders are happy to take showers when they arrive. The showers are kept clean by the facility's cleaning crew. Everybody's happy. Why is this so complicated?

Monica_Thompson 8y ago

All plastic must die. I wonder how feasible biodegradable tires would be? Seeing steps in the right direction is exhilarating, in my opinion.

purplezooey 8y ago

Maybe we could get a commercial with some posthumous Charlton Heston footage saying... you can pry that coffee cup... from my cold dead hands

Jasmine_Hubbard 8y ago

What's after coffee cups, I'm curious? There's a lot of plastic in the world and it's good to see some steps towards taking it out of production as well as cleaning it from the environment.