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Changes to Models S and X allow them to travel longer without larger batteries
- melling 8y ago“Beginning today, Model S and Model X now come with an all-new drivetrain design that increases each vehicle’s range substantially, achieving a landmark 370 miles and 325 miles on the EPA cycle for Model S and Model X Long Range, respectively. Using the same 100 kWh battery pack”
- azhenley 8y agoThey also announced on Twitter: "As a thank you to our Tesla owners, all existing Model S and Model X owners who wish to purchase a new Model S or Model X Performance car will get the Ludicrous Mode upgrade, a $20,000 value, at no additional charge" https://twitter.com/Tesla/status/1120852649400623105 https://twitter.com/Tesla/status/1120852649400623105
- RickJWagner 8y agoWow. I'd like that.
- zaroth 8y agoCame here to post this exact excerpt. That’s a heck of a customer loyalty bonus, even if the margin on that particular SKU is itself quite ludicrous!
- mdorazio 8y agoAlternative view: they’re desperate to get more high margin model S and X sales because owners are keeping their existing models too long.
- azhenley 8y agoThat seems like a good position for both sides, doesn’t it?
- angott 8y agoNot surprised. They can't expect people to replace their car every two years as if it were an iPhone.
- adrianN 8y agoTime to introduce in-car purchases. Pay to overtake.
- colordrops 8y agoAlready exists. Autopilot and FSD can be purchased through the model 3 touch screen.
- anticensor 8y agoTesla self-driving uses the innermost lane by default. Pay to not overtake.
- benj111 8y agoPay to emergency brake would seem to have the potential for higher margins?
- Someone1234 8y agoSlight tangent but what are you getting for $20K? Is it a software feature, or is there physical difference between the normal performance and "Ludicrous" model?
- toomuchtodo 8y agoThere is a smart fuse composed of an inconel alloy that is pyro-actuated to protect from overcurrent conditions when performing a Ludicrous launch (~1500 amp peak current drawn). It's not software only. Very fancy circuit breaker.
- ulfw 8y agoIt's that the same as a Flux Capacitor?
- erik_seaberg 8y agoMore details at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9904587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9904587.
- secabeen 8y agoDo we know if that's needed with the new drivetrain?
- agumonkey 8y agoInterestingly, it seems SpaceX got to play a role developing the alloy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconel#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconel#History
- s0rce 8y agoInconel is just a group of nickel alloys, been around for years. No indication the specific alloys spaceX has developed are being used in the fuse, although they could be, however, wikipedia indicates they are used in rockets.
- 8y ago
- jedberg 8y agoSweet. So there will be a bunch of used model S’s coming soon!
- limaoscarjuliet 8y agoI read it as "there will be a bunch of crashed model S's coming soon".
- alasdair_ 8y ago> Ludicrous Mode upgrade, a $20,000 value I have a P85D. When Ludicrous Mode was announced, they offered it for $5000 as an upgrade. I have no idea why it now supposedly costs $20,000. Source: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-drops-price-of-p85d-ludicrous-upgrade-will-not-have-the-same-performance-as-ludicrous-p90d/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-drops-price-of-p85d-ludicrou...
- NotSammyHagar 8y agoi think it costs more because they need the money more now. they've got a lot going on, lots of new vehicles in development and not many models or sales to amortize it over.
- justinclift 8y agoThat $US20k seems to be purely marketing bullshit, aimed to sucker US buyers. :( Easy seen as such too. Compare the "Ludicrous Mode" for the Model X on the US website (US$20k) to the same thing on the Australian website (AUS$8.5k): https://www.tesla.com/modelx/design?redirect=no#battery https://www.tesla.com/modelx/design?redirect=no#battery https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/modelx/design?redirect=no#battery https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/modelx/design?redirect=no#batter... Note - you need to select "Performance" on the right side, for Ludicrous Mode to be shown. Ludicrous mode is "20% faster acceleration" for both. So it very much seems like the extra cost on the US buyers is to match this marketing update. That thing where Larry Ellison (Oracle) is now on the board of Tesla. This is the kind of crap he'd very much applaud. :( https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/modelx/design?redirect=no#battery https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/modelx/design?redirect=no#batter...
- AnthonyMouse 8y agoThe entire feature is marketing bullshit. There is no practical utility in making a car that fast go even faster, it's sold only as weapon in the battle to express the desired length of one's phallus in vehicle form. They should charge $15,000 for the first "10% faster" and then another $25,000 on top of that for the second 10%.
- brianpgordon 8y agoAlso: "In addition to our Long Range and Performance variants, we’re also re-introducing a lower entry price for Model S and Model X by bringing back our Standard Range option, now available for an even greater value with the new drivetrain and suspension updates." They just can't leave their pricing structure alone. How does Tesla management not appreciate how unnecessarily confusing this is for consumers?
- teej 8y agoYou go on the website, click a couple boxes, and it tells you a price. You pay what you see on the website. How is that more confusing than a regular dealership?
- brianpgordon 8y agoFirst of all, I doubt that the average Tesla customer is wealthy enough that they're in a position to shrug and ambivalently pay whatever the website tells them on that particular day, like they're in the checkout aisle of a grocery store or the pump at a gas station. When it comes to $50,000 purchases, people generally like to plan ahead. Second, the comparison isn't against dealers (which are awful), the comparison is against the ideal. All I'm saying is that Tesla is shooting itself in the foot with its inconsistency. Bringing up dealers is a whataboutism.
- natch 8y agoBringing up prices and ideal scenarios is whatboutism. These updates are about real features, not prices or fake ideal scenarios.
- brianpgordon 8y agoHuh? No it's not. The point under discussion is whether Tesla should be changing their pricing so often. I'm arguing that it would be better if they didn't. That's not a whataboutism. Deflecting the criticism and saying "at least it's not as bad as the dealers" is, on the other hand, pretty much the archetypal whataboutism.
- asaph 8y agoI wonder why the Model 3 isn't getting the new drivetrain.
- CarVac 8y agoIt already has the new motor technology. The S and X used to have induction motors front and back, while they now have a switched reluctance motor in the front.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- zaroth 8y agoIndeed, the efficiency advances started in the Model 3 design stage and have now been adapted for use in the X/S.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jpgvm 8y agoBecause this is the Model 3 drivetrain, it's just getting backported.
- DeonPenny 8y agoThe model 3 has the newest drive train the model S and X are getting the model 3 drive train and batteries.
- _Microft 8y agoTesla stated that Model S and X will not get batteries based on 21700 cells because it would require redesigning more than just the battery packs themselves.
- CarVac 8y agoSo they added the Switched Reluctance Motor technology used in the Model 3 for the front motor, improving efficiency.
- TD-Linux 8y agoIt's a permanent magnet motor. It's an IPM design so some amount of the torque comes from reluctance, but the majority of the efficiency is from the permanent magnets providing the field rather than having to burn energy through the induction motor's copper bars to provide it.
- pitaj 8y agoWhich is interesting. I wonder what the math looks like, since induction motors (without the heavy magnets) tend to be lighter. I can see why they'd avoid a rotor-coiled motor, since that comes with lifetime constraints.
- amluto 8y agoAs I understand it, the permanent magnet motor is more efficient at low fractions of maximum torque/power output. So, when cruising, the rear motor will be powered down. When accelerating heavily, the rear motor can kick in.
- baybal2 8y agoInduction motors are worse at regeneration at low speeds, but as poster below said, their advantage is that they can be powered down and not impede coasting. I think they hope to be able to match power requirements of highway cruising using a PM motor, so they don't take losses spinning AC motor way below its power rating.
- AFascistWorld 8y agoWill it deteriorate?
- baybal2 8y ago
- ProfessorLayton 8y agoThis is a nice upgrade for the Model S, however, I'm really curious what Tesla's design refresh roadmap looks like for their older models. The Model S has remained mostly the same since 2012, and while the design is pretty good, very few companies can get away without a major design refresh for 7+ years.
- iambateman 8y agoI wonder if this still applies in the same way, considering how few Model S units there are from 2012-2014, relative to mass market cars like the Camry. For a lot of people outside the Bay Area, a Model S still feels like a design revelation, not old hat.
- CalChris 8y agoWell, there’s also the facelift and all wheel drive.
- prklmn 8y agoAll other car manufacturers play that game.
- ddoolin 8y agoDoes the 2016 refresh not count?
- notatoad 8y agoThe 2016 refresh was basically equivalent to most models mid-cycle design update. It was exactly that, a refresh, not a replacement model.
- sandos 8y agoWV seems to update their cars basically every year. Also mixing and matching single parts, like updating the headlights year X, then year X+1 a total refresh with newer headlights that look almost like the smaller refresh from the year before! I am impressed that they can do stuff like that, but they are also kinda big....
- jac_no_k 8y agoThis "continuous deployment" for cars must be a logistical nightmare. To do repairs for a given vehicle, keeping track of what parts are backward compatible would be challenging. What if it's a compatibility breaking change? Then keeping inventory for older cars would become problematic. Unless they do design with maximum compatibility. Then it gets interesting as upgrades are possible. While B.EV cars maintenance is low, my car 7 months into ownership revealed bad battery cells that needed replacing. If the car was say five years old, would this replacement have been possible?
- toomuchtodo 8y agoTesla's supply chain management system was built in house. Combined with configuration tied to the VIN, I don't see it as being onerous. Backward compatibility, while not easy, is straightforward (dependency graph). If a subsystem incompatibility exists and parts cannot be sourced from Tesla inventory or an OEM, you replace the entire system (and pray to whatever deity you believe in it happens under warranty). Tesla provides a very generous battery pack & powertrain warranty (8 years/infinite miles for S and X, 8 year/100k miles for Model 3); you're not going to be opening up the high voltage pack to replace cells yourself. Tesla will perform the work, or swap the pack if necessary. EDIT: Note this is only a comment on Tesla's supply chain tracking system, and doesn't discuss their difficulty in getting replacement parts out to customers.
- ummonk 8y agoWell, given that people report their Teslas sitting in the shop for months to get repaired, the logistical supply chain doesn’t seem to be working too well.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- wmf 8y agoI think that's an intentional choice to optimize sales of new cars. Every part made goes into a new Tesla and there are no replacement parts available.
- gibolt 8y agoIt has been 7 years since initial release. Super excited that it got an update, right when competitors are somewhat catching up. Only took them that long to almost compete.
- wil421 8y agoI always thought one of the big 3 US or German companies were betting on Tesla to fail. Once they failed they’d scoop up their tech at a discount. After the Model S’s success I think they all realized they need to play catch up. Meanwhile Japan is still going down the Hydrogen path...
- rootusrootus 8y agoI wonder what tech they'd scoop up. GM already has supercruise, and Cruise. And they released an EV back in 1996. Seems probable that their stance on EVs today is entirely by choice.
- NotSammyHagar 8y agobattery efficiency, drivetrain efficiency, making cars cheaper, updating software live in the field reliably. 0 to 60 speed, battery lifetime without degredation, almost worldwide charging network, supercharging without degredation, billions of miles to train your self-driving. advanced ui. summon mode. so basically there's no value there. don't forget about ~30% more efficient now than the vaunted e-tron and even more efficient than the terrible i-pace.
- wil421 8y agoTesla has batteries that don’t degrade? My Jeep Grand Cherokee has OTA updates including ones that can be done while driving. The updates do not cause my car to be bricked either or cause the car to not be able to drive.
- rootusrootus 8y agoI agree that Tesla's plan to put superchargers everywhere is good business, it will lock a number of customers into their ecosystem who are okay with that. Apple would be proud :). But there are quite a lot of Level 2 chargers out in the wild that everyone else can use, and that's where I pin my homes and dreams -- the last thing I want is every manufacturer building their own competing infrastructure ecosystem. Imagine having to shop for gasoline based on what brand car you own. Porsche has superior charging. Tesla batteries do degrade, we know this for fact. The E-tron may be using a larger battery with a built-in reserve to mitigate degradation and improve charging time and Audi customers are less price sensitive than Model 3 customers. 0-60 speed is just a choice, electric motor technology is not really cutting edge. I wish Tesla luck and I hope they're strong in a couple years -- the Model Y does look promising. But the hype may do them more harm than good in the long run.
- jonknee 8y agoThey're re-introducing the lower cost model, interesting move right before quarterly earnings get announced. I have to assume this means sales have been poor. > In addition to our Long Range and Performance variants, we’re also re-introducing a lower entry price for Model S and Model X by bringing back our Standard Range option
- TaylorAlexander 8y agoIn the autonomy presentation yesterday they said they could create more robotaxis if they ship smaller batteries. So I wouldn’t assume it means sales are poor. They’re focused now on building out a self driving fleet of customer cars, which they plan to activate as taxis in the future.
- rorykoehler 8y agoEvery move they make there are inevitably a bunch of comments that Tesla sales are poor. Only offer high spec... Bad sales. Reintroduce lower spec... Bad sales.
- jacquesm 8y ago> In the autonomy presentation yesterday they said they could create more robotaxis if they ship smaller batteries. More? The challenge is not to ship more of them, the challenge is to ship one.
- grecy 8y ago> The challenge is not to ship more of them, the challenge is to ship one. Of course, if you believe what Elon said two days ago, the fascinating thing is that every Tesla shipping right now is already a robotaxi, it just needs a fee software OTA update at some point. So in that regard the more Teslas they can get on the road in the next ~2 years, the more robotaxis there will be at "Autonomy Launch" (...whenever that happens to be)
- Cyclone_ 8y agoThose are great numbers, I'm really looking forward to the rivian though. It will have 410 miles for the SUV https://www.autonews.com/article/20181127/OEM04/181129763/rivian-begins-to-build-out-portfolio-with-electric-r1s-suv https://www.autonews.com/article/20181127/OEM04/181129763/ri...
- leesec 8y agoRivian has yet to make a single Truck. It is vaporware until they have more than just numbers.
- Cyclone_ 8y agoAre Tesla owners really this sensitive? I mean they do have prototypes out there, it's not like they're making up what the mileage is, they clearly have demoed that it works, it's just about producing the vehicles now.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago> it's just about producing the vehicles now. That is the hardest part, and all that matters. Anyone can make one concept car. Not everyone can make hundreds of thousands of them per year.
- 7e 8y agoThe longest range electric vehicle, at 380 miles EPA, remains Hyundai's fuel cell SUV.
- tgtweak 8y agoTechnically it's a hybrid. Just not an internal combustion hybrid.
- 7e 8y agoNo, it runs only on hydrogen (to EV direct drive). https://m.hyundaiusa.com/nexo/ https://m.hyundaiusa.com/nexo/. Zero emissions, refuels in five minutes at one of California's 40 stations. Soon all hydrogen production will be renewable from solar and wind electrolysis. Exciting times.
- adventured 8y agoIt's the hydrogen that makes it a hybrid. The parent comment is correct. Being a hybrid does not require eg a gasoline motor. It's not strictly an electric vehicle, it requires hydrogen in the process. Their own diagram is very clear about this matter: motor + fuel cell + hydrogen + battery. https://m.hyundaiusa.com/images/vehicles/pages/vlp/2019/nexo/main/fuel-cell-explained/system-mobile.svg https://m.hyundaiusa.com/images/vehicles/pages/vlp/2019/nexo...
- 7e 8y agoThat's not the common definition of hybrid. Here, electricity directly powers an electric motor and there are no emissions. Is a Tesla a hybrid because some of its electricity comes from regenerative breaking? How about if some comes from from ions in an electrolyte solution?
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- clouddrover 8y ago> Model S and Model X are now capable of achieving 200 kW on V3 Superchargers and 145 kW on V2 Superchargers. Together, these improvements enable our customers to recharge their miles 50% faster. What does that mean exactly? I'm sure there are sections of the charge curve where it is 50% faster, but you need to consider the entire charge curve to get a better sense of the improvement. The Tesla Model 3's charge times were improved by the combination of battery preconditioning and the faster V3 Supercharger. A charge that used to take 60 minutes can now be done in 40 minutes: https://electrek.co/2019/03/07/tesla-v3-supercharger-action-first-look/ https://electrek.co/2019/03/07/tesla-v3-supercharger-action-... I'd call that 33% faster charging. So is the Model S and Model X charge time improvement across the entire charge curve or just sections of it?
- toomuchtodo 8y agoCharge times are improved at deep to moderate discharge states. Little improvement (but not necessary for charge times expressed to be realized) at 80-100% SOC (state of charge). EDIT: @clouddrover You asked "So is the Model S and Model X charge time improvement across the entire charge curve or just sections of it?" I provided a response to that question. Sorry if you thought I was restating what you already said, that was not my intent. Please excuse my exuberance, this is one of my few passions (rapid electrification of transportation).
- clouddrover 8y agoYes, you've just restated what I've said. The question is what's the improvement across the entire charge curve.
- mikeash 8y agoThere’s at least some improvement across the entire curve. The added range came from better efficiency. Better efficiency means more MPH for the same kW when charging.
- zaroth 8y agoInterestingly, the charge rate across the entire curve sounds like an important metric but in practice it is nearly irrelevant. If you drive an ICE car, you are used to filling your tank. Because once you've gone through the trouble of driving to a gas station and pulling out your credit card and unscrewing the cap, well you might as well top it off, right? Life is different with electric. You might know, for example, that most Teslas operate day-to-day with their max battery charge limit set around 80% or below (it extends battery life). Charging at night is entirely effortless, so you put the charge into the battery that you'll need for the next day, or like me, you set it to give you 4x your daily commute and totally forget about it. Only before a particularly long road trip do you pop open the app and slide up the charge limit. For Superchargers, the model is a bit different because this is charging that's happening on-demand while you wait in the car or are off getting a bite or whatever, during your trip. The best measure is to examine the portion of the curve that actual drivers spend actually charging their cars at an actual Supercharger. So here we have it; "V3 Supercharging will ultimately cut the amount of time customers spend charging by an average of 50%, as modeled on our fleet data." So this is truly an average of 50% faster, for actual Tesla drivers. ICE-age drivers who love to hate Tesla will insist you have to integrate the charge-rate curve, but as usual they will be entirely missing the point. Tesla could spend an atrocious amount of time and money improving charging speed from 90 to 100%. That might be how you charge your phone, but it's actually not how Tesla drivers charge their cars (or how the onboard guidance computer will plan to charge your car when it sets the route for you), and would have almost zero benefit for the Fleet. Charging en-route is most efficiently done to boost the battery up to 70-80% and then you get going again. Supercharger deployment, at least in the USA, is modeled such that there are almost no trips where you would benefit from, or need to, fully charge at a Supercharger, versus making two charging stops which would add up to less time charging, and driving out of your way to the charger, overall.
- magicbuzz 8y agoFor metric folks, this equates to nearly 600km. That's about as much as I want to drive in the space of a single day. Conceivably however, automated driving could mean doing longer distances. And at a cost much less than an airfare - just a lot more in time.
- magicbuzz 8y agoActually they're quoting 660km on https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/models/design#battery https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/models/design#battery
- clouddrover 8y agoThat's according to the NEDC test cycle which is the most optimistic (and therefore the least useful) range estimate. The three test cycles that are typically used are: NEDC (too optimistic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_European_Driving_Cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_European_Driving_Cycle WLTP (better than NEDC, still a little optimistic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_harmonized_light_vehicles_test_procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_harmonized_light_veh... EPA (the most conservative): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTP-75 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTP-75 The WLTP figures are okay, but I think EPA test cycle is the most useful because it's the most consecutive and most representative of real world driving.
- ps 8y agoMy S 75D has 384km range (not really near the EPA 417km) and it is approximately 21 % optimistic which I would not call "little". Route planners (ABRP, previously Tesla) will not let you drive 300km without charging, because you would arrive with less than 10 % SoC.
- masklinn 8y agoI wonder if NEDC/WLTP/EPA just ignore heating and A/C entirely? That's not a big issue for ICE, but it would be for an EV.
- viburnum 8y agoTesla’s cars are not especially energy efficient: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/30/what-are-the-most-efficient-electric-cars/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/30/what-are-the-most-effic...
- jpgvm 8y agoThe older models with the older drivetrain no. But this is the Model 3 drivetrain. If you look at the data you posted you will find the Model 3 is basically ball park for "as good as you will get for now". The major difference being those other efficient drive trains aren't capable of anywhere near the torque that the M3 drivetrain is so it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison but I digress.
- NotSammyHagar 8y agoThe model X tesla before this upgrade was much more efficient than the latest tesla killers from europe. This article [1] showed the audi e-tron is 23% less efficient than a model x (the family truckster huge suv tesla), and the i-pace is 26% less efficient. That is before the 10% performance. Tesla has excellent efficiency, much better than these german cars. The hundai is also a great, efficient car too. 1. https://electrek.co/2019/02/21/tesla-efficiency-range-test-audi-e-tron-jaguar-i-pace/ https://electrek.co/2019/02/21/tesla-efficiency-range-test-a...
- Brakenshire 8y agoThat test doesn’t take into account increased battery buffers on the IPace or eTron, so it’s strange to call it an efficiency test.
- NotSammyHagar 8y agoOkay, well another way to think of it is that tesla has proven their choices for amount of usable battery to offer succeeds with half a million + cars on the road and billions of miles driven. Their battery warranty is excellent and time proven. My S is 4 years old and approaching 50k miles and no appreciable degredation. If an S and an etron has about 85kwh there's something to compare there. Comparing to these other 2 companies, they are being way more conservative, or more likely they don't have as good a battery managment system and they are afraid of big costs down the line if the batteries do degrade. Either way, Tesla has a time tested much better system that provides much longer range with similar overall battery capacities. It's not that audi can't do better. Just at this time Audi & Jaguar suffer tremendously in comparison.
- olliej 8y agoSo it sounds like the range increase is for new cars? (Other comments made it sound like a software update to existing cars) I still wish there was more focus on range over acceleration, obviously electric motors don't suffer from general efficiency impact as ICEs do (an ICE with superior acceleration seems to take an efficiency hit at all speeds), but how much of that "faster acceleration" impacts efficiency over the course of driving a few hundred miles.
- mrybczyn 8y agobasically none. I've read that many electric motors are most efficient at 80%+ load...
- olliej 8y agoThe problem is more that you hurt efficiency when accelerating fast. I'd rather a moderately reliable increase in range than improved periodic acceleration. Essentially this is: How much does (say) 25-55mph in 2s vs. 4s cost for overall distance in normal traffic. That said I have better things to spend 60k on than a car. (my last car was $18k, and 42k can be used for a lot of good things that aren't a fancy car. That said I would rather a car that can accelerate faster than a Prius C - my old 9k Yaris did much better, even though it used more gas)
- CJKerr 8y agoYou modulate your rate of acceleration with your right foot. If you want a car that accelerates from 25-55 over 4 seconds, drive that way...
- _ph_ 8y agoThe rate of acceleration is mostly irrelevant for the fuel consumption, unless your engine gets in a less efficient operating mode, which is not the case with electric motors. Often enough, this is not even the case with combustion engines, especially natually aspirated ones. Only if the higher acceleration also leads to overall higher speeds or additional breaking, energy is wasted. Otherwise, the energy used for accelaration is the difference of the kinetic energy at the high minus the one at the low speed.
- Animats 8y agoThis is good. It's Tesla focusing on making better cars. More range is good. Faster charging is good. Those are real things. Yesterday's claims about Tesla operating a million self-driving taxis by 2020 were, well, not taken too seriously. The new stuff is all at the high end, though. The $35,000 Model 3 is still absent from the product line.
- mikeash 8y agoIt’s not absent, it’s just hidden. You can order one if you call.
- reitzensteinm 8y agoFor now.
- tristanperry 8y ago> The $35,000 Model 3 is still absent from the product line. I find it bad that they hyped it up for so long and then removed it from online sales a month later, but you can still order it over the phone or in-branch. Plus despite some rumours of 2+ month delays, they are actively being produced and have already been delivered to some customers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQgjY2SRrck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQgjY2SRrck).
- oblio 8y ago2020 is in 8 months. They currently produce about 400k cars per year...
- sidcool 8y agoWhat is super cool about Tesla is their laser sharp focus on creating a good electric vehicle. From the autonomy announcement and then this one, they are creating tools purpose built for cars, like new chips for self driving, battery tech etc. They have done so much in so little time, we have come to expect more from them. There is only so much a car company can innovate, Tesla has gone beyond it. Edit: I am a Tesla fanboy but I don't condone their false advertising around FSD.
- dforrestwilson 8y agoIf you believe that they are doing false advertising around FSD, could they also be doing false advertising about this?
- sidcool 8y agoIt's highly unlikely. This is a public event and they will be held even more accountable than when Elon tweets something. Lying at such a stage would risk their reputation. So I say it's unlikely, not impossible though.
- navigatesol 8y ago>Lying at such a stage would risk their reputation. But the thing is, the fans never say it's a lie. Battery swaps, Solar Shingles, Alien Dreadnought factory producing so quickly you need strobe lights to see machines, Full-Self Driving, profits forever, robot taxis...these are not lies, they are simply things that haven't happened yet. Years ago the guy literally walked onto a Hollywood set and demonstrated the Solar shingles. Now they are writing down Solar City and getting in trouble for not producing enough or providing the promised jobs at the subsidized factory in New York. Lie?
- jsight 8y agoThe only bit there that I disagree with is the battery swap. They actually did that, and I think it pretty visibly demonstrated what a dead end that approach was likely to be. Otherwise, though, you are right, and they even prepped for that in the presentation. I always get it done, just not on time. So when this isn't done in 2020... well, 2022 then. They make great cars, IMO, but this stuff is more than a little annoying.
- gkfasdfasdf 8y agoCan't wait to see new 0-60 numbers w/ludicrous
- hellllllllooo 8y agoGiven the huge amount of truth stretching in the autonomy anouncment yesterday anyone here with relevant battery experience want to weigh in on this? Yesterday completely burned through some of the goodwill and trust I had for Tesla to the point that I am sceptical of anything they announce now. Is this real?
- NotSammyHagar 8y agoread the motortrend article. they test drove on today and said the range they got was actually about 400 miles.
- CarVac 8y agoThe room was there to improve. Nothing about this is particularly implausible.
- num3ric 8y ago3 miles short of Montreal-NYC!
- mrb 8y ago"Paired with the new more efficient drivetrain design, Model S and Model X are now capable of achieving 200 kW on V3 Superchargers" Not sure how this has anything to do with the new drivetrain, because last month they already announced "[a V3 supercharger] supports peak rates of up to 250kW per car" (presumably without the new drivetrain as it had not been announced yet - https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging) Also why did Tesla claimed 250 kW in the blog post last month, but now lowered their figure to 200 kW ? I'm so confused. Edit: found some answers: "Model 3s will be able to take full advantage of the new Supercharger capacity [250 kW] thanks to the car’s newer battery chemistry". So the Model 3 can charge at up to 250 kW, while Model S and X are currently limited to 200 kW. Source: https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/6/18253618/tesla-supercharger-250kw-v3-specs-location https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/6/18253618/tesla-supercharge...
- CarVac 8y agoPaired with, not as a result of. The lower charge speed of 200 vs 250 is likely cell limited compared to the 2170 cells in the 3.
- mrb 8y agoAh, yes.
- takeda 8y agoFrom the text you cited, my understanding is that 200kW is already possible and they might be able to achieve up to 250kW using that approach.
- mrb 8y agoBut it's the reverse: they previously announced 250 kW last month. While this new drivetrain announcement says 200 kW. Why did they lower the charging rate claim?
- davidgould 8y agoNew drive train probably also includes new battery management, hence new cars can charge faster. The 200kW vs 250kW is the difference between the Model S/X and the newer design packs in the Model 3.
- DeonPenny 8y agoThe competition just got more stiff. They are selling audi etrons for the same price with 200 mile ranges, and tesla is about to break 400.
- occamschainsaw 8y agoAs a bit of a tangent but a note, this is a fantastic article. When I read it in a paper [1] by Alan Kay, I always assumed that most manufacturers would release a full battery that was twice longer than their current size (probably a little bit shorter because it would require a big recharge) in order to support these new models. [1] - http://www.arxiv.org/abs/1509.0852 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/1509.0852
- josh2600 8y agoIt’s been a while since I’ve read a paper abstract that made me feel completely out of my depth. Can you give a little more context here?
- occamschainsaw 8y agoI am sorry about this, just wanted to have some fun. I posted the title in the hn comment generator[1] and copied one of the comments here. Guess it passed the Turing test. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19694578 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19694578
- jamilbk 8y agoQuestion for Tesla owners: Is the recharge time ever a problem? Have you ever felt regret from not being able to just pull up to a gas station, refuel, and be on your way? Part of me drools with child-like giddiness at the prospect of owning one, but part of me hesitates at the thought of taking roadtrips in one.
- sjwright 8y agoQuestion for ICE owners: Is having to regularly visit a fuel station ever a problem? Have you ever felt regret from not being able to wake up every morning with a "full tank" in the car? Point is, it's not a compromise, it's replacing one set of compromises with another. Yes, you are limited to driving for 4-5 hours before taking a 30-45 minute break (assuming your route has fast chargers) but that's fairly consistent with the needs of humans anyway. (Muscles, stomachs, bladders etc.) [Not an EV owner.]
- magicalhippo 8y ago> Is having to regularly visit a fuel station ever a problem? Have you ever felt regret from not being able to wake up every morning with a "full tank" in the car? We just got an EV, and my gf loves this aspect. She was terrible at remembering to fill gas before coming home, so would very often find herself in a situation where she had to fill up before getting on her way. Quite often this coincided with when she was already running a bit late in the morning, causing a lot of additional stress. With the EV, plugging it in is a quick and natural part of parking in the garage and so the car is always ready to go in the morning.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y agoPosted my sibling comment before reading this and just wanted to confirm - I often think "I'll fill up in the morning" on my drive home and then end up kicking myself in the morning for being so lazy the night before!
- tialaramex 8y agoAlso, if you forget and then realise, there's no way that five minutes before bed you'll put proper clothes on, drive out to a fuel station, fill it up and drive home. Not going to happen. But popping down to plug the EV into the mains is something you might actually remember then go and do, like putting that cheese back in the fridge or running the dishwasher.
- baoha 8y agoIt's funny how they put CA EV Rebate in the 'after savings' part. This rebate has income cap at $300k/household. If I made less than that, I would think really hard before purchasing a $90k car.
- codeulike 8y agoCompare to the Audi e-Tron, which has a fairly massive 95kWH battery but only scores 204 miles of EPA range. They claim they're only using 88% of the battery capacity so that charging is faster and battery longevity is preserved, but thats a really weird engineering decision that belies the fact they have made a terribly inefficient (and perhaps rapidly degrading?) battery pack/drivetrain. Meanwhile the base Model S, for $4k more, has 285 miles of EPA range, and charges faster when below 50%, although not as fast as the e-Tron when above 50%. The smaller Kia Niro EV (if you can get one, they aren't making many because they can't source the batteries) squeezes 258 miles of range from a 65 kWH battery. Much better, but terribly production constrained. It won What Car of the Year in the UK but they can only deliver 900 to the UK for the whole of 2019. Not sure what the global Kia production rate is, but presumably far far less than Tesla which has sustained 4000+ Model 3's per week since last October (although not yet delivering to the RHD countries like the UK, alas) Turns out making EVs is harder than everyone thought. We were told the traditional automakers would just wade in and obliterate Tesla, who were just putting 'wheels on batteries'. That hasn't happened.
- tim333 8y ago>...88% of the battery capacity...weird engineering decision Musk was talking about existing packs lasting 400,000 miles and working on new ones that will do 1 million. You can't get those sort of life spans if you use the full cycle - think how long your phone battery lasts.
- codeulike 8y agoCar batteries are not much like phone batteries. A car battery pack is a system in itself, with thousands of small cells supported by cooling, heating, monitoring and balancing systems. edit: there are recommendations for Tesla daily use that say go to 90% most of the time. But still a bit different to putting 12% completely out of reach like Audi have done.
- martin_bech 8y agoWell actually, by default Teslas charge daily to only 90%, to preserve the battery. You can however change it to 100%, if going on a trip, or otherwise needing the full range.
- QuamStiver 8y agoSure the new Model S and X don't charge as fast as the Model 3 (but 200 kW on v3 is already very good, which means also that they tweak somehow the battery as a whole, including power electronics apparently) but who needs charging so often when you have such a range?! Supercharger locations will see more Tesla owners now coming to relax first and recharge (the car) than recharge and relax...
- alkonaut 8y agoI'm wondering what types of range extension methods could be easily added to an EV. Scenario: I'm going to drive 900km/560mi and it's -10 outside (I do this multiple times per year). I want a cosy room temperature inside the cabin. - How can I ensure I waste as little range as possible on heating, so that I don't risk having to make e.g. 2 stops instead of one? - More critically, if I get stuck in traffic for several hours because of an accident, I need some way to ensure I don't freeze to death in my EV as I'm standing still and the battery runs out. It seems these two things should be solvable with a single solution: a plug-in space heater to be used in emergencies and for maximizing cold weather range. The space heater could be e.g. a kerosene burner or similar. But for best effect it should of course "plug in" to the car vents. Is this a thing? Or is heating the passenger compartment such a trivial use of energy anyway if the car is insulated, that it doesn't make a difference? In a concrete scenario: If I drive a model 3 and have 100km battery left, and I have 20km to my planned charging stop half way through my journey. Suddenly traffic stands still because of an accident and it's freezing outside. How long will the "100km" charge maintain the 30K temperature difference while still having 20km left?
- Retric 8y agoBatteries heat up during discharge. So outside of the most extreme weather conditions more batteries are simply a better system.
- alkonaut 8y agoYes, but if I have more batteries I'll already factor that into my planning so I'll make fewer stops. If I have to always maintain X% battery when I'm driving in cold temps (to be able to survive N hours in case of a cold weather traffic jam) then it effectively just shortens the range. Adding X% battery to compensate this has to be very expensive compared to having a burner space heater and a gas/kerosene bottle for emergencies.
- TheCraiggers 8y agoThere are other ways to survive in the case of an emergency. Blankets, food, candles and whatnot should be in your emergency kit regardless of what you're driving. Besides, how is this different than a gasoline-powered vehicle? In your situation, you'd still be reducing your range by X% in order to survive N hours in case something happens- your gas tank is not infinite, after all. I suppose you could make the case that you currently have more refueling options than recharging options, but I don't think it will always be that way, and it's not currently that was in some locations, such as Norway.
- NoblePublius 8y agoFormer Model S, now Model 3 owner here. I can confirm this change won’t mean much for Model S or X sales as the interiors of the S and X remain stuck in 2011.
- ninju 8y agoFor those that skipped the bottom paragraphs >so as a thank you, all existing Model S and Model X owners who wish to purchase a new Model S or Model X Performance car will get the Ludicrous Mode upgrade, a $20,000 value, at no additional charge. Are they having trouble trying to get repeat business?
- azhenley 8y agoTheir cars are so good that there is no need to replace them!