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China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media
- yorwba 8y agoThis has no added value over the article it links as the source: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3006817/leica-camera-backs-away-promotional-video-depicting-tiananmen https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3006817/lei...
- devoply 8y agoWould it not be better for these idiots to simply apologize for Tienanmen Square and promise not to do it again? And also stop all their asshole human right violations?
- dymk 8y agoShit, why didn't anyone else think of that? Hold on let me get Xi on the phone and let him know.
- 0815test 8y agoEven if they did, there would be very little certainty that people would trust them, or, more importantly, their successors in the same positions of authority. The only effective "apology" and "commitment" from them would be opening up their society in some way, perhaps along Neo-Confucian lines, i.e. with a sort of assembly of widely-recognized "wise scholars" that could veto/overrule the executive on such matters (Somewhat like the U.S. Supreme Court). But either way, it would be a real challenge to the current setup of authority in China, and any sort of change is inherently hard. So they'll just keep muddling through like this, even in ways that may seem obviously undesirable or even silly to outsiders.
- kmonsen 8y agoIt seems to work well for Russia.
- Yetanfou 8y agoYes, of course. They seem to think that acknowledging mistakes and misbehaviour will rob them of their power since that power partly depends on them never being wrong. They must realise that anyone and his dog knows by now this is a total fiction but for some reason they just can't get themselves to step up, bow down deep like you sometimes see Japanese CxO's do when taking blame for some misstep and humble themselves before their nation. Given that the same phenomenon has characterised more or less al other "communist" regimes it seems to be something in this ideology/doctrine which makes it near to impossible to admit to failure.
- daodedickinson 8y agoOccasionally their rulers admit that previous rulers make mistakes. But they don't admit their own. But few rulers do anywhere on our planet.
- chongli 8y agoOnce you go down the road of totalitarianism, the risks of turning back get worse and worse over time. The playbook of all dictatorships is the same: squeeze tighter and tighter until you can no longer hold on, then collapse. Sometimes the process is quite rapid, sometimes it drags on. It all depends how long you can keep the elite prosperous and happy and how long you can maintain economic growth.
- 0815test 8y ago> The playbook of all dictatorships is the same: squeeze tighter and tighter until you can no longer hold on, then collapse. While a common-enough failure mode, this is by no means universal. Many successful monarchies began as the equivalent of dictatorships, and then opened up further and further over time.
- chongli 8y agoThe monarchies of old changed hands and flipped over due to war (civil and otherwise) so often that they're not really comparable to a modern state dictatorship. Tons of monarchs had extremely short reigns, far less stable than the Chinese Communist party.
- stcredzero 8y agoIn that case, is it really valid to count those monarchs as different governments and not continuations of the same system?
- chongli 8y agoYes. It's completely valid, since their borders, their laws, and the identities of the people were constantly in flux. Nothing at all like the continuity of modern nation states through successive governments.
- stcredzero 8y ago
- ronilan 8y agoIf you suggesting China adopts a system in which every government systematically apologizes for what previous generations have done, while laying the foundations of the next apologetic generation; then they can’t do that. It’s copyrighted by the Government of Canada / Gouvernement du Canada.
- joe_the_user 8y ago[sarcasm] Oh I'm sure Canada and other Western nations are offering licenses for their model and indeed one might see this entire enterprise as a long effort to sell those licenses, while China just insists on relying on simpler methods.[/sarcasm] That said, China's unwillingness to mention Tien Ah Min expresses the point that nation has to adopt a "no apologies, don't talk about this and we'd definitely do this again" position because the state ultimately deals in absolutes. This situation indeed implies a certain fragility. Edit: Just for clarification, I certainly hope a framework of democracy and freedom of speech prevail but I am still clear quite a few Western interests have entirely selfish reasons for wanting this (and the Western model indeed has its flaws).
- devoply 8y agoIt's funny because China seems to have the mentality that this must be so. And look over to the Japanese and at one time they were similarly minded. And yet look at them now, a pleasure to deal with both on individual and societal level. So it's simply a choice and a mentality which will lead you into all sorts of bad situations. Unfortunately Chinese don't have enough experience with this and instead looking to history to guide their actions, which is a mistake. We simply can't act this way in the world we have built, the consequences are too grave for everyone involved.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- daodedickinson 8y agoHeh, that form of piracy is rampant, too, then.
- tjalfi 8y agoAbsolute power doesn't mean that you can act with impunity. Xi must retain the support of the heads of the army, secret police, and such or he will be replaced. The Dictator's Handbook[0] discusses this topic in detail. The Rules for Rulers[1] is an 18 minute video that summarizes some of the principles of the book. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dictator%27s_Handbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dictator%27s_Handbook [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs edited to add video title to second link
- devoply 8y agoWinnie the Pooh changed all sorts of things for the worse that his predecessor had made progress on. He's an idiot. He should be replaced by someone more wise.
- daodedickinson 8y agoJulius told Augustus to pay the soldiers well and have contempt for the rest.
- maehwasu 8y agoHow would that help the government achieve its goal of maintaining power, in any way?
- daodedickinson 8y agoSince the opium wars, the most lenient Chinese rulers have not lasted very long.
- throw2016 8y agoTienanmen happened in 1989. Would it not be better to apologize to Iraq, Libya and Syria and promise the world not to destroy entire countries, kill hundreds of thousands of people and put millions of families in disarray for those who genuinely care about human rights and lives? Instead millions more are threatened in Venezeula and Iran with the exact same warmongering playbook and propaganda while 'human rights lovers' are apparently more concerned about a protest that happened in China in 1989. This simply stretches credulity. At this very moment exactly zero people have been held to account for the totalitarian surveillance, torture and war crimes exposed by Snowden, Manning and Assange. How so? If you are concerned about human rights surely war crimes and torture by your own country would have blown your top and brought the guilty to account asap? And yet not only has no one been held to account but its those who exposed these crimes who are being persecuted in so called 'democracies'? This is a sham.
- i_am_nomad 8y agoMan, that was a hard-earned fifty cents. Nice work, comrade!
- thoughtstheseus 8y agoNo way they made fifty cents on that. They'd all be rich based on the volume of this stuff.
- zwaps 8y agoNice Whataboutism there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- walshemj 8y agoOK so China will forget about the opium wars then
- icelancer 8y ago>> a protest that happened in China in 1989 Yeah, it was just a protest.
- megaremote 8y agoIt might be better for them, it might be worse. It is hard to say.
- coldtea 8y agoFrom "Bill and Ted's political thoughts".
- monochromatic 8y agoTypical communists.
- efoto 8y agoIn an unfortunate act of self-censorship, the video has been now removed from YouTube. Update: while the video linked by the article has been removed, here it is: https://youtu.be/dQpKcw-n330 https://youtu.be/dQpKcw-n330
- 2bitencryption 8y ago"Self-censorship" is much scarier to me than the "traditional" censorship. It's terrible when a government takes away your voice. But it's so much worse when people do it voluntarily to avoid the consequences. (in this case, of course Leica is a business that doesn't want to lose a market with billions of people, but still... Leicas have been used for a hundred years to expose this type of nonsense, and now they're doing this...)
- waiseristy 8y agoIf Leica wasn't run by a spineless board of directors then they would have the power to pursue principle instead of profit.
- plink 8y agoToo bad no one supposes it worthwhile to form a backlash boycott against Leica's toadying stance with China.
- yrro 8y ago“The Empire's got something worse than whips all right. It's got obedience. Whips in the soul. They obey anyone who tells them what to do. Freedom just means being told what to do by someone different.” From Interesting Times by Terry Pratchett
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- abecedarius 8y agoAfter 1989 there was some debate about how the free world should deal with the Chinese state, and basically "free trade will lead to change" won. We should've been more specific about which side was going to change.
- Squarex 8y agoDoes anyone have the mentioned video?
- bonoboTP 8y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPnnHCeRH3w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPnnHCeRH3w
- malshe 8y agoThanks for the link. There are tons of comments written in Mandarin so I used Google Translate to see what they are saying. Suprisingly several top rated comments are positive about the ad!
- rangibaby 8y ago> Suprisingly several top rated comments are positive about the ad! It's not that surprising, Youtube is blocked in PRC
- mbroncano 8y agohttps://youtu.be/dQpKcw-n330 https://youtu.be/dQpKcw-n330
- benj111 8y agoSo what's the official Chinese line on Tiananmen? Did it not happen? Was it a western plot? Student riots? Banning the word Leica seems to be implicitly admitting that it did happen, and that the Chinese government did something wrong, so I'm guessing the official story isn't the generally accepted story?
- anbop 8y agoThe official position is “don’t talk about that.”
- bitxbitxbitcoin 8y agoEspecially don't talk about it on May 35th.
- whoevercares 8y agoThat’s a funny one
- spectramax 8y agoThat's exactly why the rest of the world needs to speak up.
- ralph84 8y agoTo what end? It was 30 years ago. The Eight Elders are all dead. You really think a bunch of westerners tutting at China about lowlights in their history will do anything other than galvanize Chinese nationalism?
- vageli 8y ago> To what end? It was 30 years ago. The Eight Elders are all dead. You really think a bunch of westerners tutting at China about lowlights in their history will do anything other than galvanize Chinese nationalism? This makes me wonder if discussions of reparations for slavery have fueled a similar fire in the United States. In my mind, criticism of past wrongs would lead to resentment by those criticized. I'm not in any way saying that discussing past harms has caused a resurgence of these issues, but I do wonder if there is some relationship.
- mpnordland 8y agoSo my guess is that Huawei will now stop partnering with them for their phones? How does China deal with this type of thing?
- 0815test 8y agoIt's not even "China" that's directly responsible for most of these decisions, really. It's each private company individually trying to figure out how to keep the Chinese government happy and on their side. That's why these things are inherently unpredictable. Sometimes you can even see seemingly-coordinated behavior that's actually the result of bandwagoning - e.g. if one company bans "Leica" on their social media site, then everyone else will feel like they have to follow suit. It's quite a mess.
- rebuilder 8y agoThat's a good point. What would it even look like if there was an official, authoritative list of things to be censored, with draconian enforcement? Xi Jinping isn't going to personally decide what goes on the list. He's certainly not going to personally adjudicate the myriad edge cases. Inevitably the system must devolve into a lot of individuals making conflicting decisions. I see no way to have a cohesive, official censorship apparatus with centralized control, unless the method employed simply involves cutting cables. That would be pretty unambiguous.
- vageli 8y ago> That's a good point. What would it even look like if there was an official, authoritative list of things to be censored, with draconian enforcement? Xi Jinping isn't going to personally decide what goes on the list. He's certainly not going to personally adjudicate the myriad edge cases. Inevitably the system must devolve into a lot of individuals making conflicting decisions. > I see no way to have a cohesive, official censorship apparatus with centralized control, unless the method employed simply involves cutting cables. That would be pretty unambiguous. Social control and censorship is far more effective than governmental censorship. Being "excommunicated" or ostracized from your social group is enough to prohibit many people from making political expressions (or otherwise). For a dumb but illustrative example, think about how your posting habits on social media might change if your relatives were receiving those posts. The best part is that it allows the government to indirectly encourage practices and behavior that would likely receive criticism in the global community if done directly.
- spectramax 8y agoPowerful ad. My gut feeling is that there will be a day in the future where everything in China is going to boil-over just like any other totalitarian regimes in the past. It could be 20 years from now when Xi dies or some type of student uprising again, or could be from the HK/Taiwan situation. The behavior of the Chinese government and as they call it "the hand of Beijing" has a self-propelling streisand effect, the more you clamp down, the more it leaks and at some point, it will boil over. Nationalism is tribalism in its glorified, patriotic form. On one hand, we have great men who strive to make the world a better place - journalists, scientists, mathematicians, teachers and community workers and on the other hand we have ugly human tendencies surfacing in a powerful form from politicians. Every politician should listen to Jiddu Krishnamurthy's UN speech in 1985: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcga8ATBNh0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcga8ATBNh0 There rest of the world needs to fearlessly criticize Chinese censorship as it is only going to get worse. If the Chinese government is insecure from opening history books, hell even calling Xi Jingpin a Winnie-the-Pooh; that's not the kind of superpower I wish to see in this world.
- rossenberg79 8y agoAs westerners I feel this is natural to think, and makes sense to us, but having been in China several times I'm not so sure. The value systems in Asia are far different, and people are much more collective where as we are a more individualist society with different thoughts about individual freedom. I doubt China could have become as strong as it is today without it's long history of authoritarian regimes, and I feel that many in China believe this to be true. The growing dissent may not be a sign of what's to come but may simply be the growing pains of a totalitarian regime moving into the 21st century. I do not agree with Chinese government but I never underestimate it. There are some smart people working to keep over a billion people under control and productive, and I'm sure they will ultimately find a way that keeps them like that, and can be accepted by it's citizens.
- spectramax 8y agoThis is not a very compelling argument - "They're different from us, therefore we are not in a position to comment." There is a tremendous understanding, analysis and comprehension of totalitarianism in the west. Even in popular culture, say 1984 by George Orwell.
- libeclipse 8y ago> The dramatic video is set in 1989 during the Tiananmen Square pro-democracy protests that are forbidden to talk about in China. > the company is now distancing itself from the 5-minute video after Chinese social media users cried foul > “Do you even deserve to collaborate with our patriotic Huawei?” one Weibo user said about Leica
- HNthrow22 8y agoWhy are discussions surrounding Chinese Politics permitted but no other political discussions? Seems like a double standard. Just quickly looking at the removals here's a 4 hour old Mueller report thread instantly removed - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19712217 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19712217.
- malwarebytess 8y agoFilters didn't catch it, though eventually this will be removed as well?
- jccalhoun 8y agoI would guess because this has a social media and business aspect to it rather than just pure politics.
- ufmace 8y agoThis is more about how politics affects the tech world, not politics for its own sake. Mueller investigation drama doesn't really have anything to do with tech.
- stonogo 8y agoThat's a weird take, since huge sections of the report deal with Wikileaks, email server administration, and social media manipulation.
- ufmace 8y agoDo you think a thread like the one linked above would have a rational discussion of those tech-related topics that are kind of connected, or rapidly devolve into a OrangeManGood/OrangeManBad flamewar and moderation nightmare?
- techntoke 8y agoI recall seeing probably 3 to 5 frontpage stories on Assange after his arrest and Wikileaks, but then the report that specifically talks about him and Wikileaks isn't allowed? Weird!
- apo 8y agoThe Chinese are innovating totalitarianism faster than any other country. Take this, for example: > ... When undergraduate students at Peking University, which was at the center of the incident, were shown copies of the iconic photograph [of Tank Man] 16 years afterwards, they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork." It is noted in the documentary Frontline: The Tank Man that he whispered to the student next to him "89," which led the interviewer to surmise that the student may have concealed his knowledge of the event. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man The fact that Leica, a foreign company, is now apologizing about the ad (and has deleted it from their YouTube account) shows just how effective the Chinese government has become at their trade. From the article: > “Leica Camera AG must, therefore, distance itself from the content shown in the video and regrets any misunderstandings or false conclusions that may have been drawn,” Emily Anderson, a spokesperson for Leica, told SCMP.
- spookyuser 8y ago> ... When undergraduate students at Peking University, which was at the center of the incident, were shown copies of the iconic photograph [of Tank Man] 16 years afterwards, they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork." It is noted in the documentary Frontline: The Tank Man that he whispered to the student next to him "89," which led the interviewer to surmise that the student may have concealed his knowledge of the event. Reminds me of this: https://vimeo.com/44078865 https://vimeo.com/44078865
- sverige 8y agoMoney quote: "Which unit are you from?"
- 0815test 8y ago> "genuinely mystified." ... "artwork." It's all about plausible deniability. Funnily enough, that's exactly why censorship doesn't actually work - these things are precisely what people would say if they knew about the picture and its significance, but wanted to make an outer impression that they don't. I think it's quite possible that the Chinese nationalists "protesting" Leica's shameful, anti-Chinese campaign are playing a very similar game, even while clearly hinting that they do respect the government's authority. These things are not what they seem to be, there's a lot of subtlety involved.
- ashelmire 8y agoAnother western corporation loses its spine in pursuit of profits. "Hey, sorry we mentioned that time you murdered thousands of your own citizens, it's totally a fake event. Please let us keep selling things in your country." One day, maybe, this cowardly behavior will end.
- kabacha 8y agoPeople like to pretend that corporations aren't political entities when they absolutely are - that's the whole point of capitalism and free market.
- pmlnr 8y agoSo many angles. Leica is an iconic brand and making politically heated ads is a bad idea: showing up with a Leica following ads like this will put it's own customers in a situation where they will be associated with the company's stand, and that is dangerous; both for them (the customer) and the brand. Banning the name of an important technology company which is actively present in it current smartphones, lenses, science, etc, will makes things way too complicated. Youtube(r) removing the ad, besides being a coward act, will only trigger the Streisand effect.
- lpu4o74p 8y ago> making politically heated ads is a bad idea Which is why I strongly suspect ad agency creatives did this on their own. Being in Brazil may have made them feel free from client scrutiny.
- baby 8y agoI have a question that maybe Chinese people here can answer. How patriotic are chinese people? How critical are they about the government and how many people (especially outside of China) approve of them?
- whoevercares 8y agoWe make fun of the leaders and the systems all the times. Most private comments in my close circle are pretty critical(“wtf is this brainwashing Xuexiqiangguo app”). And I think overseas Chineses could show up as more patriotic than they were in China, because most of us had never been discriminated even slightly before or ever heard so many bad news for their motherland. Chineses overseas are also pretty self-proud, we probably don’t like hear some meme too many times. Though, it’s not quite likely your Chinese friends/colleagues will ever talk with you about that unless you guys are super close.
- perlwle 8y agohaha on the Xuexiqiangguo app. I frequently hear complaints from people who have to use it. I agree pretty much what you said. But I am in the motherland. And to elaborate more on what you said. There are lots patriotic people and vice versa, and the patriotic voices are often heard on the net. You won't hear much the other side because it's censored. I was once on the side of making hard change. i.e overthrow the Gov. But the more I stay here and saw what have gone through in other countries, the more am I inclined to the side of soft change. With 1.4 billion people, a hard change will be devastating to everyone and the rest of the world. It's just too easy to wonder why the Chinese haven't stood up to the Gov and not thinking about the consequences, esp You won't be the one doing it. And most of the Chinese are living a good life here and it's just too much to risk for. I think the Gov has to screw up big time to stir up the hard change and I don't like to see it happen.
- throwaway55244 8y agoChinese people are critical of the government but when speaking to Westerners, they are tired of being lectured. It’s like, when you want to go wash the dishes, and then someone nags you to wash them and “explains” the importance of keeping things clean. Almost every interaction with Westerners about the government isn’t because they genuinely care about Chinese people, but rather to feel superior, like they are saving the “Chinese” from themselves. That’s what it feels like and why many Chinese don’t like talking about it. Unless of course pandering to Westerners can make them money. Then there are some that will gleefully act the part.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jordache 8y agolol most serious photo journalists do not use leica cameras
- landryraccoon 8y agoDo any companies secure their confidential information by randomly inserting information or images that would be considered subversive in China? Like, every other page contains an embedded Winnie the Pooh image, or an insert describing the 1989 incident. Would Chinese agents be afraid to have such materials in their possession?
- ardy42 8y ago> Do any companies secure their confidential information by randomly inserting information or images that would be considered subversive in China? That would be pointless, since it's only forbidden in public discourse. People in trusted positions are able to access subversive information if needed, and anyone hacking foreign organizations for the state are probably in that group. This article might be enlightening about the situation: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/02/business/china-internet-censor.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/02/business/china-internet-c...
- Simulacra 8y agoAt what point does it all become ridiculous? Until the Chinese government reaches this point I don't see them ever becoming a true superpower.
- adventured 8y agoOnly more transparent, liberal, open government systems can withstand criticism. The authoritarian models are always and without exception the most fragile, which is of course the exact opposite of how those systems try to project themselves to the rest of the world. You can easily tell how fragile they are, based on their tempers and thin skin when it comes to criticism. It's unfortunate, China was on a better path. The regressive shift to Xi's authoritarian-heavy model was entirely unnecessary. It was solely done for his own glorification, and he openly pretends it was done for opposite reasons. If that were true of course, Xi wouldn't work so hard to bury Deng's legacy under his, he wouldn't be so susceptible to that intense need for vanity and idolization. Prior to Xi locking everything back down, China had slightly opened up further to internal dissent and criticism, there was far more quasi-free speech 10 and 15 years ago online in China for example than there is today. I agree with the common statement that China's culture may never choose to fully liberalize or adopt Western-style democracy, however I also think they could have easily pushed a lot further toward that direction from the stopping-point of progress where Xi began to deviate the system backwards.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- writepub 8y agoI hope the average HN user sees that Silicon valley companies have whole heatedly adopted the exact same totalitarian formula to suppress and censor conservative speech [1] Tianamen:China :: Conservative-Speech:SV-Companies [1]: https://youtu.be/DZCBRHOg3PQ https://youtu.be/DZCBRHOg3PQ
- saagarjha 8y ago> “Do you even deserve to collaborate with our patriotic Huawei?” one Weibo user said about Leica, according to SCMP. Is this an actual sentiment that Chinese citizens have?
- aonsager 8y agoThis felt off to me too. I really dislike articles that cherry-pick anonymous SNS posts to prove a point.
- dethac 8y agoChina has more than a billion people. It might be the sentiment ONE Chinese person may have, or even a group, but one Weibo user does not represent a significant fraction of Chinese citizens. And no, I'm not even sure many people know that Leica collaborates with Huawei.
- zachguo 8y agoWhen I was still an undergraduate student in China, the 4hr film The Gate of Heavenly Peace was available in our school's internal torrent network.(Tons of censored content was available there.) I and my buddies watched it together in our dorm, with high expectation. But we were quite disappointed, and wondered why the CCP censor it so firmly at all. The event is neither bloody nor aspiring.
- lpu4o74p 8y ago> ad agency F/Nazca Saatchi & Saatchi Ads do really seem increasingly likely to transport some political/ideological content. Is this happening the customer's explicit request, or are agencies and/or their individual creatives surreptiously hitching a political/ideological ride at their customer's risk and expense?
- bayareanative 8y agoChina continues to force the world to bend to its totalitarian demands: changes to Hollywood movie plots and editing, arbitrary keyword bans and FAANG helping to "accommodate" their platforms to facilitate censorship.
- thirdsun 8y agoAll of those parties are free to ignore China’s ridiculous demands.