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Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

• wolfspider 8y ago
  May be the only one that thinks this but changing up the keyboard so much on all devices has ruined me on all of them. The old MBP feels weird now I’m used to the new one and old PC keyboards feel weird too, the ChromeBook keyboard feels weird, etc..Hmm how about velvet that smells like lavender wouldn’t that be nice?
• ajma 8y ago
  hmm... am I alone in being someone who likes the butterfly keyboard?
  • auggierose 8y ago
    no, you are not
  • legohead 8y ago
    as long as it lasts, I enjoy it.
  • Dylan16807 8y ago
    Not at all. Even a lot of people that hate it, liked it for several months until it broke. That doesn't say much about whether it's a good idea overall, though.
    • Tempest1981 8y ago
      Right. It's a very polarizing keyboard design. Whereas previous designs pleased everyone.
  • jackconnor 8y ago
    I also hate it, but maybe it’s like music and it’s totally subjective.
  • ummonk 8y ago
    I haven't had too much trouble with it aside from a poorly responsive spacebar at one point. I still dislike it though, and don't really find any value in the extra thinness.
  • sonofaplum 8y ago
    the article isn't about the feel of the keyboard, its about the reliability. Unless you are saying you like stuck keys?
    • robertAngst 8y ago
      Apple users say they like that Apple is closed, so I wouldn't put it past them.
  • kalleboo 8y ago
    I like the sharpness of it and don't mind short travel. I hate when I have to send my laptop in to Apple for 10 days to repair it because a speck of dust entered it. So now I use a "keyboard condom" on it to keep dust out (despite Apple's explicit support article saying NOT to use one) and it's turned into the worst keyboard since the ZX80
    • cmroanirgo 8y ago
      The apple repair store near me (not an apple store per-se) has those condoms on the customer facing keyboards. Wow, they're awful!
      • threeseed 8y ago
        I have the Ghostcover and it's amazing. Doesn't cover the TouchBar and helps to soften the noise.
        • swah 8y ago
          Oh how sad. I remember those videos showing the first unibody MBPs, everyone was drooling over those. Now people have to use that!! [1] while $200 laptops from ASUS have keyboards that work for 10 years. I wish they were the kind of company that could admit a mistake, but it breaks their story. [1] https://store.gouppercase.com/products/premium-keyboard-protector https://store.gouppercase.com/products/premium-keyboard-prot...
          • threeseed 8y ago
            Not sure what you're talking about. Nobody has to use them. I like to use them so my laptop keyboard stays clean and helps soften the noise since MacBook Pro is designed to at least partially emulate a mechanical keyboard.
  • sbuk 8y ago
    Nope.
  • dmitriid 8y ago
    I didn’t like it first. Then I became ok with it. But it’s so so so infuriatingly shoddy. Cmd fell out on my previous laptop. On my current one most of the keys feel wobbly. Coupled with accidental brushes againt touchbar and the unnecessarily enlarged touchpad frequently failing at palm rejection this ends up being a very subpar experience compared to earlier models.
  • ricw 8y ago
    I love it. I recently had to temporarily go back to a 2014 MacBook and it just felt mushy and imprecise. The new keyboards feel sharp and way more precise. Just simply better.
  • camhenlin 8y ago
    I love them. The newer keyboards have a very satisfying clickiness to them. I guess I'm lucky to have a 2018 model that's not had keystroke issues however
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  • thought_alarm 8y ago
    The arrow keys are one of the most essential parts of a keyboard for people who write a lot of code or otherwise do a lot of copyediting. This type of user needs to be able to lock on to the arrow keys repeatedly and unconsciously without fail throughout the work day. Apple's keyboard designers understood this and got it right for over 15 years. But that changed in 2016. As of 2016, Apple's new keyboards provide zero affordances for these kinds of users and are completely unsuitable for real work. You couldn't pay me enough to use one of these keyboard for writing code, and I certainly wouldn't pay my own money for one.
    • fredsir 8y ago
      > The arrow keys are one of the most essential parts of a keyboard for people who write a lot of code Ahem... I think you meant "hjkl". Just joking ;)
      • AndrewDavis 8y ago
        How's that escape key going? :p
    • mruts 8y ago
      Honest question: Why are you using arrow keys for coding?
      • ilikehurdles 8y ago
        If you’re going to suggest vim bindings, fine, I get it; but the act of moving a cursor around to insert, remove, replace, or otherwise refactor parts of code is pretty essential to my workflow and I can’t imagine how someone wouldn’t need it. I use structural editing shortcuts quite a bit, but not 100% of the time.
        • wilsonnb3 8y ago
          I think you’d be surprised as to how many people just use the mouse for that.
  • SenHeng 8y ago
    Been using them for several years now and I like them a lot too. I have the v2 MacBook where the 'b' key got stuck once but I managed to fix with some can of air spray. Have had various MBPs at work and most of been fine too. I've always had a habit ofregularly clean my keyboards too which I think may have helped reduce the amount of dirt getting stuck underneath.
    • ta20190419 8y ago
      > I've always had a habit ofregularly “of regularly”
  • linguae 8y ago
    My company bought me a 2018 MacBook Pro about two weeks ago and so far I'm enjoying the keyboard; I like the tactile feel (I typically use mechanical keyboards whenever I'm at a desk, and so the tactile feel of the MacBook Pro's keyboard was a pleasant surprise), and there's more travel than I thought there would be. I remember trying the butterfly keyboards back in 2016 and hating them, so either something must have changed or my preferences have changed. With that being said, I've only had this MacBook Pro for two weeks, and so we'll see if it remains reliable over the next few years.
  • eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
    I think you’ll find a lot of people that like the way the keys feel and travel — like me — but are really tired of not having a reliable machine. I’ve had to take multiple different machines in for repair. And each time I have to tell them to replace the entire keyboard, but they always want to blow it with an air can. Utterly infuriating.
  • nihonde 8y ago
    No, I also like it. I’m not saying the complaints are unfounded, but they’re not my issues. I broke the command key after about a year of heavy use, but it took about five minutes at an Apple Store to have it replaced. I’ve broken keys on every laptop I’ve ever had, including the venerated IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads. (Don’t even get me started on how many problems I had with that horrendous trackpoint thing.) Since then, my only complaint about the MBP is the arrow key arrangement, which I will never adapt to, and the goddamn useless, laggy yet hypersensitive touchbar. When I have to use other people’s keyboards, I dislike their long travel now.
  • kevinherron 8y ago
    No, I like mine also. I'd be annoyed too if a bunch of my keys were sticking, but they aren't, so I guess I'm lucky.
  • wmeredith 8y ago
    No, but we’re just quietly working and using our macs. There’s obviously a problem, but it’s not the end of the world.
  • dsego 8y ago
    I liked it when it worked. It's all about what you are used to I think. When typing on a mechanical keyboard for a while, even a thinkpad keyboard will seem like pressing on cardboard. But mine broke a lot and I managed to snap off the key caps, those are really fragile.
• Dylan16807 8y ago
  “seven elements that every keyboard needs to create a great typing experience.” I have a hard time imagining what those seven elements are, because I get stuck at two: 1. Produces the characters 2. That I intended to type. These two attributes are also, incidentally, what the biggest and most-valuable tech companies in the world are somehow grappling with anew. Oh come on. Having a keyboard that causes as little fatigue and soreness as possible over time is an unsolved and complicated problem. There's also noise to consider. And laptops don't have infinite room. These factors come after "does it make the characters?" but they are not unimportant.
  • mwfunk 8y ago
    She was being sarcastic. She wasn't saying that nothing else matters, she was saying that nothing else matters if it fails at being a functional keyboard.
    • Dylan16807 8y ago
      But Apple is the only one grappling with that. It's not what Microsoft's presentation is going to be about.
      • mwfunk 8y ago
        Yes, exactly. That's the sarcasm.
  • kkarakk 8y ago
    >1. Produces the characters 2. That I intended to type. if it helps, the butterfly mechanism fails at doing that if even a tiny speck of dust/grit gets in the mechanism
• calimac 8y ago
  Apple has gone 5150 Over the last 6 years. Disconnect from reality is an understatement.
• paxys 8y ago
  > “So, just curious, why did you buy another one?” she asked, referring to the 2018 MacBook Air I’d gotten six months after selling the Pro. I was hoping she talked more about this part, but brushing it aside by bringing up "Apple ecosystem" is pretty unsatisfactory. It does tell you, though, that Apple has its target demographic by the balls, and broken keyboards are certainly not chasing them away. Macbooks will get fixed the day tech journalists start writing articles about how they tried a Windows laptop and liked it.
  • sundvor 8y ago
    My laptop of choice (X1 Carbon) consistently gets a pretty good rep for its keyboard. I'm still using my ~6.5 year old first generation (top spec) and the keyboard remains flawless. But then again they actually test for foreign particle ingression: https://solutions.lenovo.com/resource-center/pc-solutions/partner-network/mil-spec-tested/ https://solutions.lenovo.com/resource-center/pc-solutions/pa...
    • danieldk 8y ago
      Practically any laptop has a good keyboard compared to the first two generations of butterfly keyboards. I have suffered through a MacBook Pro with the second generation butterfly mechanism. Although I liked the feel of the pristine keyboard, pretty soon specks of dusts made keys get stuck/repeat regularly. I also had a can of compressed air to blow out the dust regularly. Between the broken keyboard and only 2 USB-C port, I hated that laptop. I know have a MacBook Pro with a 3rd generation butterfly keyboard (which has the dust seals) and 4 USB-C ports. I am finally starting to like MacBooks again. So far the keyboard has been fine. Touch ID on a MacBook is absolutely brilliant, flying through 1Password and sudo prompts is awesome. The new True Tone screen is awesome. The largest downside: MacBooks have become even more expensive than they already were. Why did I stay on a Mac? Three reasons: 1) I use a lot of Mac-specific apps (OmniGraffle, Deckset, Things) that I absolutely love. 2) macOS is still a great operating system. 3) The hardware is still simply better. The last point two points notice now that I work remotely and I Skype with my colleagues nearly daily. When I Skype with someone with a MacBook or iMac, the sound quality is great and without a lot of distortion. When I Skype with someone that uses a ThinkPad or another PC laptop, the sound quality is typically bad, their mics pick up a lot of noise, and somehow noise cancellation seems to work quite badly. Then there are OS-specific problems (which may also be Skype bugs), e.g. if someone shares their screen with me, I see the mouse pointer when they are on a Mac, but if they are on Linux there is no mouse pointer.
• wyclif 8y ago
  P.T. Barnum (possibly) said it best: "There's a sucker born every minute." There are a lot of suckers out there with MacBooks.
  • rarrrrr 8y ago
    After watching Louis Rossmann's live repairs and informed bitching, I bought an almost maxed-out Lenovo T480 on the President's Day sale and hackintoshed it. Water-resistant, backlit keyboard that's awesome and isn't crazy loud/fragile. 16 GiB, WQHD (could be brighter), Samsung 1 TiB 970 Pro and giant extended battery. 9 hour run-time. MIL-spec rated. EDIT: I had a pre-Retina A1278 mid-2012 MBP with 16 GiB and 2 SSD's for a long time. MagSafe 1, okay keyboard, generally bulletproof for a while until the external ports and logic board traces started corroding from humidity and temperature extremes. :( I bought a broken screen MBP for $170 USD to get a working logic board cheap to recover and migrate off. Donated to a sane-but-poor itinerant writer/journalist/commercial fisherman.
    • 0_gravitas 8y ago
      LR has absolutely guaranteed that I will never willingly purchase an apple product in my life.
      • dep_b 8y ago
        Which kind of makes you think what he thinks of what his business really is in the long term. Repairing Macs that nobody buys anymore probably not.
        • 0_gravitas 8y ago
          I doubt hes under the delusion that people will stop buying apple anytime soon, and even if they did, it shouldn't be too hard for him to pivot to doing more general repairs.
    • bluedino 8y ago
      Had a T480S for work. Nice port selection. Kinda thick. Speakers stink. Powerful CPU. Upgradeable RAM/SSD. Keyboard is nice, trackpad isn’t that great, screen isn’t as nice. Plus you’re stuck with Windows or Linux.
• codegoblins 8y ago
  I updated my work laptop last year to the 2017 model and I immediately determined that I would wait for a better keyboard design before updating my personal laptop. Preferably one without the touchbar, or at the very least with a physical escape key.
• kkarakk 8y ago
  i am absolutely laughing at this macbook pro 2017 i bought. the keyboard has been replaced 3 times now...the screen was replaced for stagelight effect(broken connector)...they replaced the whole top bit for that(everything north of the hinge gets replaced) i finally pawned it off on someone else and they promptly fried the motherboard due to water damage(the air intake ports lead directly to the motherboard so good luck to any starbucks warriors out there) so that got replaced too. Ship of theseus in action - a macbook story. only the bottom baseplate is from the original macbook at this point.
  • sundvor 8y ago
    Woa. For the X1 Carbon, Lenovo actually designed ducts to channel accidental water ingress away from the important parts. It's kind of sad that Apple gets away with just focusing on the glitzy externals - and that their plethora customers don't care.
    • jinushaun 8y ago
      They do care, but Apple has a monopoly on making MacOS hardware and people are unable to “vote with their wallet”. Same thing with iPhones and the headphone jack.
      • threeseed 8y ago
        You can buy a Lightning to 3.5mm adapter off eBay for $2. And not sure if you've looked around your particular city but most people are using wireless headphones these days.
      • swah 8y ago
        Though on that front I feel like they did the Appleish thing: had an excuse to remove the jack (waterproofing), moved the industry in the direction they wanted, released a product that everyone loves (AirPods).
        • sundvor 8y ago
• mnm1 8y ago
  Apple makes shit hardware now and has for a few years. The Apple of old is gone. People need to accept that. The keyboard is shit. The trackpad is too big. And the screen has issues too. Desktop/laptop software, other than OS X, has always been shit. OS X is slowly turning into iOS which is a locked down piece of garbage. This is reality and no amount of fanboyism is going to change that. The alternative is Windows which is an adware riddled spy machine or Linux for which every year is the year of the desktop but not quite. I suppose a Hackintosh could work for some people too who want the OS X experience but don't want to deal with shit hardware. There's plenty of choice in the Windows world for people that don't mind spyware and adware. And Linux is pretty much the same year in, year out. Those are the choices for serious computing. We need to get used to them. I know what I'm going with next upgrade.
• ryanmarsh 8y ago
  Literally my favorite thing about the MacBook Pro is the keyboard. I do not understand the beef with it (aside from stuck keys which can happen to others).
• droptablemain 8y ago
  I tried, but I don't really feel much sympathy for someone who buys a product with a 40% premium that's effectively a status symbol masquerading as a piece of hardware. To be honest, I'm quite giggly over this whole ordeal.
  • danieldk 8y ago
    I tried, but I don't really feel much sympathy for someone who buys a product with a 40% premium that's effectively a status symbol masquerading as a piece of hardware. Oh come on, this is getting really old. A lot of people (most Mac users that I know) pay the 40% premium because they want macOS and the Mac application ecosystem. Sure, there are people that will buy it as a status symbol, but that's a crude over-generalization. Also, a Surface with about the same specs sells at about the same price at our local retailer. The Surface Laptop 2 with a Core i5, 8GB RAM, 256GB SSD is 1449 Euro, the MacBook Air 1409. There are some differences like a touch screen (Surface), Touch ID (MacBook), higher PPI (MacBook). But for all practical purposes, they are in the same class and have the same price. A similarly spec'ed Dell XPS goes for 1399 Euro without a HiDPI screen.
    • droptablemain 8y ago
      I drive a 7-year old subcompact and you're telling me that the Mercedes S-Class is not that expensive because it's only $10k more than the BMW 7-Series. Those are two quite modestly-spec'd laptops with fairly high price tags. I bought a rebranded Clevo with pre-installed Ubuntu 4 years ago with an i7 and 16GB of RAM for around $1,000. Does it have cool features like an all-aluminium construction or a nifty touch-bar? No, but it's a highly functional machine and has been quite reliable as a daily workstation (I once dropped it from a second-floor balcony and didn't have to visit a "Genius" since I'm actually allowed to open it and work on it myself). Not so great at impressing peers, perhaps; however, I can eat all the sandwiches I want over my keyboard and it still works.
      • robjan 8y ago
        Can you develop and test iOS apps on it?
• stunt 8y ago
  X1 Carbon and XPS 13 are still the best hardware out there if you are using Linux.
  • hsbaut76 8y ago
    T480s seems like a more balanced machine than the carbon imo. Xps have quality control issues.
    • dsego 8y ago
      Running Ubuntu on T480s. Nice machine, plenty thin and really lightweight. Touchpad is nice, no pinch-to-zoom on linux but two-finger right click is finally working it seems (click, not tap). Battery life could be better, getting ~4hours on Ubuntu 18.10 with tlp installed (and I thought 6hrs on the 2016 Macbook Pro was a downgrade :/) I miss the mac apps though, linux apps got frozen in time somewhere in the early 2000s.
  • zdragnar 8y ago
    My experience with the XPS 13 has been pretty meh. Most things work reasonably well, except for using USB-C for an external monitor and the keyboard isn't holding up as well as I'd like. My biggest gripe is the wireless- there's a room in my house where every other laptop gets plenty sufficient signal (mb air, chromebook, windows) BUT the xps gets such a weak signal it's almost impossible to browse the internet. If I wasn't worried about bricking it and all the config tweaks needed to get things like sleep and power management to work, I'd throw linux on the air and call it a day.
    • veesahni 8y ago
      Recent XPS models use a "killer" branded wireless card that's soldered to the motherboard. I suspect things would be better if you could use an Intel card (as is used on most other premium laptops)
  • LeonM 8y ago
    X1 Extreme is a better choice imo, up to 64G (replaceable), 2 m.2 slots, a GTX1050 for casual gaming or ML and a 4K display. I have one on order. There is also the P1, which comes with a Xeon (!) option and Quadro P1000 graphics. The market for the P1 is pretty specific, but if you need those nVidia certified drivers, this is the one. Edit: obviously you wouldn't run Linux on the P1 if you bought it for the certified drivers. It would still work though.
• Rudi9719 8y ago
  I don't understand the failure of the butterfly keyboard? I haven't had any issues with my 2017 macBook and it seems to keep kruft from getting under my keys (A problem I had with the older macbook keyboards) I also live on my macbook so it's constantly in use, and much to my displeasure, around food.
  • TN1ck 8y ago
    You seem to be a rare case. I'm also a heavy user and got keys stuck a lot and actually broke two keys (I did nothing out of ordinary). I certainly like the feel of the butterfly switches, but they really are incredible frail.
  • wildlogic 8y ago
    I was happy with the feel of the 2017, however after a few months a couple keys got stuck to the point of it being unusable. I took it in for repair at the Apple Store, and after repair, touching the ID sensor would cause the machine to freeze. Soon after, more keys started getting stuck and I just put the thing in a drawer and pulled the 2015 back out, which is what I'm typing on to this day. I've been using Apple computers exclusively since the lciii in the early 90s, but my next laptop will not be a Macbook.
  • steev 8y ago
    You are very lucky. I had three students in my office hours recently and of the four of us, all with butterfly keyboard MacBook Pros (some with the updated keyboards), three of us have had keyboard issues such as the spacebar double registering presses or other keys not registering a press at all. Within my family, everyone that has a newer MacBook Pro has had keyboard issues. I bought a used Lenovo X1 off ebay for $300 and that has become my daily driver, despite getting the keyboard repaired on my MBP. It doesn't get close to the same battery life as my MBP, and waking from sleep is a little iffy sometimes, but in terms of reliability and usability it far exceeds my experience with the MBP.
  • ascii_only 8y ago
    Nearly half of the third-gen Apple butterfly keyboards at Basecamp have failed. There are few other personal reports with similar percentages. Second problem is that it will cost a lot of money to fix your keyboard out of warranty.
• tinus_hn 8y ago
  Except Apple issued an apology over a month ago: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/macbook-keyboard-apple-apologizes-for-broken-laptop-keyboards.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/macbook-keyboard-apple-apolo... Just another clickbait title.
• sonnyblarney 8y ago
  I think the butterfly keys are great, when I got used to them going back to anything else felt like a step back. Reliability issues are a problem, but that's all within reason I think. If they repair for free. The issue with Mac is they are too expensive and a lot of the regular, non-iPhone stuff is languishing.
  • robertAngst 8y ago
    >Reliability issues are a problem, but that's all within reason I think. No, when your product doesnt work, that is unacceptable.
    • sonnyblarney 8y ago
      This the real world: every physical product has tolerances and exhibits problems, and most that are expensive require maintenance. Moreover, new features are going to be problematic. Consider your statement as it would apply to cars for example: they are in constant need of repair, tweaking, maintenance. Butterfly keyboards have never been a problem for me, the issue is really the rate of problems, how they are fixed, who pays for it.
      • robertAngst 8y ago
        Design it so it doesnt break despite tolerances? This is engineering, having something fail is not acceptable.
        • sonnyblarney 8y ago
          "This is engineering, having something fail is not acceptable." No. Engineering is not about 'zero failure' at all. It's about characterizing the failure properly. Have you ever had the pleasure of working on a physical, manufactured product? There is no such thing as a perfect run. There are always defects, there are always failures for any product at scale. 100% of Apple products have a measurable failure rate. The only Eng. problem where we shoot for 0 failures are a) Space Systems and b) Nuclear tech. Maybe some other things. But even in Space and Nuclear ... there's still a tolerance! We launch people into space with some kind of estimate as to the likelihood they will all die.
• coldtea 8y ago
  15+ years as an Apple user, this is my biggest pet peeve. The other two being: - the touch strip, which I find mostly annoying. I'd prefer physical buttons with the ability to show different labels (a la Optimus keyboard). - whichever idiot thought putting the power plug at the bottom of the Magic Mouse was a good idea.
  • jswizzy 8y ago
    The other big one is when they removed the Injection-molded end caps, "cable savers" from their cords.
  • lostmyoldone 8y ago
    Dropping the magnetic power cord connector is a major issue for me, but otherwise I wholeheartedly agree.
    • mrybczyn 8y ago
      Magplug charging is magical! Easily the best contribution to computer design from Apple, ever. And then it gets dropped... I wonder if the poor hardware has to do with increasingly outsourced R&D. I mean, everyone at Apple is rich, why should they bother with all the hard details ...
      • rootlocus 8y ago
        I don't have any sources for this, but I always assumed they dropped the magplug because it was too thick and they wanted to use usb-c exclusively.
        • alexis_fr 8y ago
          > too thick Exactly. And my life improved so much since I reduced the backpack carrying my laptop by 1mm...
      • moogly 8y ago
        Whilst Apple was the first company to bring magnetically coupled power cabling to computers with MagSafe, the idea/design wasn't original; it's been a common design for kitchen appliances in the Japanese market since the year ~2000.
• PaulHoule 8y ago
  That gas in the "canned air" cans has a staggeringly high global warming potential. Apple ought to sell a version which is environmentally safe.
• darrmit 8y ago
  It’s not just the keyboard, either. I’ve been buying Macs since they switched to Intel in 2006 and the most recent MacBook Pros are the most problematic I’ve ever had. - Bluetooth seems to be fundamentally flawed at a hardware level. AirPods, Plantronics, doesn’t matter. It just randomly connects and disconnects as it pleases. - USB-C dongles are a minefield of poor functionality However, I’ve run Linux off and on since 2007 and Windows for 20+ years and I still wouldn’t give up macOS as my daily driver. Even with the issues above it still has an excellent display, I like the keyboard (waiting to start having issues), and the battery life is the best I’ve ever had. I’m glad to hear desktop Linux works for some people, but I just don’t have time to a.) tune and configure it to work and have decent battery life with whatever hardware I choose or b.) troubleshoot it when it randomly decides to break itself on update.
  • robertAngst 8y ago
    >Even with the issues above it still has an excellent display, I like the keyboard (waiting to start having issues), and the battery life is the best I’ve ever had. I don't understand this. I understand not liking Linux Desktop(I hate it, but LOVE LOVE LOVE Ubuntu Server, fav OS of all time) And... the screen is what has you sold on Apple OS? I'm flustered at this logic. Pretty screen-> Good operating system I only imagine you use your laptop as a facebook machine. Would a cellphone do?
    • zaphar 8y ago
      I send easily 8-10 hours per day looking at my screen. Screen quality has a large effect on how tied my eyes are at the end of the day. When I was younger it wasn't as noticeable but I'm not young anymore and my eyes are noticeable happier with the MacBook Pro screen that any other screen I've tried. For me it's an issue of eye health.
      • seba_dos1 8y ago
        There are plenty of non-Apple hidpi laptops.
• Causality1 8y ago
  I take it with these amazing apple keyboards you can't just pop the keycaps off with a screwdriver to clean under them and pop them back on?
  • bluedino 8y ago
    You can very, very carefully remove them with a credit card. However, they are VERY easy to damage. And even if you get the key off without breaking it, the problem is the butterfly mechanism is very fragilse and goes 'flat', it's not so much getting dust specks in there.
• muraiki 8y ago
  I had slowly been moving into the Apple ecosystem, buying an iPad, iPhone, and even a HomePod and Apple Music. I was largely motivated by a respect for Apple's stance on privacy. Then it came time for me to buy a laptop and I encountered these numerous reports of Apple screwing up one of the most basic parts of the computer. I couldn't justify spending so much on a laptop plus AppleCare, which would only result in getting another keyboard that suffers from the same problem. I realized that this is what Apple lock-in means, and now I'm leaving their ecosystem. Whereas before I would tell friends and family to just get Apple products, now I'll them to buy a Chromebook or Windows laptop. Maybe this is why I keep seeing the newly released Macbook Air on sale for $200 off...
  • geophile 8y ago
    I am somewhat locked in to "the ecosystem", having an iPhone and an MBP. But the badly designed apps, the disaster that is iCloud, and the new MBP keyboard (the broken butterfly keys, the moronic touchbar) have motivated me to escape. It's not entirely feasible, even with my minimal exposure. So I've compromised. My daily driver is a Darter by System76. The hardware is good enough, the battery life is good enough, the keyboard is fantastic, and Pop OS is beautiful. I still have my failing MBP, but it is demoted to a station for syncing my iPhone. I rarely touch it. When it dies I will replace it with a Mac Mini. I don't want to move to the Google ecosystem because of privacy issues.
  • usaphp 8y ago
    > I couldn't justify spending so much on a laptop Apple MacBooks lately are being priced on par with the competition. You want premium screen and trackpad - you will have to pay just as much for a windows laptop.
    • gilbetron 8y ago
      Just bought a Dell Precision, and out of curiosity, went through and specced one out to match an equivalent Macbook. The macbook was solidly 30%+ higher in price. They were pretty close about 3-4 years ago, but now they have gotten terrible. And that doesn't even consider the Dell has a better keyboard (and for me, a better trackpad). I used Macs for almost a decade, but I'm crazy happy with my Dell running Ubuntu 18.04. Amazing!
• geophile 8y ago
  My rant about the state of Apple: https://github.com/geophile/reality-distortion-field https://github.com/geophile/reality-distortion-field
• jvatic 8y ago
  My main complaint with their new keyboard design, not having used it enough to encounter any reliability issues, is that it’s just way too cramped to actually type on. I’ve since gone back to an older MBP, but while I was using the newer design I found the only way I could actually type on it was using an external keyboard. There really wasn’t anything wrong with the 2012/2015 form factor and I wish they’d go back to that.
  • hliyan 8y ago
    I too had to go back to an older MBP, but not because the keyboard was cramped. My complaints: 1. Not enough tactile feedback from keys. I have to carefully calibrate the amount of muscle power I use to hit the keys, which paradoxically increases the pain in the joints of my fingers. 2. Lack of a physical ESC key. I touch type, and this makes writing code rather difficult. 3. Lack of USB port. Lack of HDMI port. Lack of magnetic charging port (which is very convenient) 4. Oversized touchpad. Increases accidental touches. My old MBP is now in its third year, and I'm really hoping a newer, more usable version will come out before it dies.
    • cobbzilla 8y ago
      Re 2, I remapped the tilde key to escape because it was driving me nuts. I do still want to type a tilde char sometimes, so that is now Alt-tilde. Thank goodness for Karabiner.
• aosaigh 8y ago
  Everyone speaks about being ‘locked in’ to the apple ecosystem. I’m happy to be in the ecosystem and I’m happy to pay more for my devices. The alternatives are simply interior (having used all platforms myself). In particular when you are trying to work across multiple devices from different ecosystems.
• benologist 8y ago
  Not admitting your mistake this much is simply lying. They have a severe honesty problem admitting their hardware faults. How is this legal? Imagine if car companies, instead of recalling their broken shit, just lied and quietly tried to fix it on next year's model... When the free keyboard replacement program shuts down, and Apple still denies the problem, and Apple happily charges you $795 every so often to fix their mistake over the life of the machine, will it be fraud?
  • linuxftw 8y ago
    Many poorly designed car parts fail prematurely just outside of warranty. If there's no safety concern, there's no recall.
  • Tempest1981 8y ago
    Where is the threshold between "marketing spin" and lying?
• bnolsen 8y ago
  Lack of competition in the Apple ecosystem, plain and simple. I think people know this before making the jump. Or they work for a company that forces them into choosing between a windows or osx laptop. I'm in this crowd and I have no love for either. I despise apple hardware but hate windows itself far more. Most people are best served with a good chromebook. That crowd won't be the ones frequenting this type website.
  • RandomBacon 8y ago
    You're spot on, I'm sorry that you're being downvoted. Apple Inc has a monopoly on regular users' hardware for their iOS/OS. Windows, Linux, Android, Windows Phone OS (when that was a thing), did not. Companies were able to try and provide the best hardware in order to win customers. Apple doesn't have provide the best hardware, regular users only have one hardware provider to choose from if they want Apple's iOS/OS. (The average regular user is not going to make a Hackintosh.)
  • TuringNYC 8y ago
    How much of an ecosystem is there between Apple on the desktop vs mobile? I have an iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, and AirPods and there is definitely a strong ecosystem there. However, I ditched the MacBook (due to keyboard issues) and went with a ThinkPad and have been very happy. The ThinkPad has iTunes, so I dont lose my music. I supposed there is iCloud integration, but that seems like a small reason to remain on Apple desktops. Side note: Other benefits of ThinkPad - 64GB RAM! Can run multiple VMs easily - NVIDIA GPU for those who do CUDA work.
• leecarraher 8y ago
  i like the razor edge they put on the bottom of the computer, such that after using it for a while, people feel compelled to ask me about my day and offer kind affirmations.
• ravenstine 8y ago
  Okay, they haven't admitted their mistaken design to the public. So what? That says nothing about what design changes they might make in the future. There are definitely things to point out about Apple's current generation of MacBooks, but I really don't get the vitriol people currently have for them. Sure, I liked the MagSafe charging port, but USB-3 has so far been better than I expected. I only need one kind of cable for most things now, and can charge my phone and my MacBook off the same charger. The touchbar is kind of bullshit to me, though. It hasn't provided any benefit and is really just a nuisance when I somehow inadvertently touch virtual keys when reaching for the delete key. Other times, it shuts off after non-use during things like Google Hangouts, in which case what's the point of the virtual keys if I can't see them all the time? Yet the touchbar doesn't offend me enough that I wouldn't buy another MacBook in the future. These are still good computers. I used to be a Windows and Linux guy, but all the non-Apple laptops I owned had significant flaws that usually didn't reveal themselves at first. My experience with 2014+ MacBooks has been excellent in contrast, with updates always being very smooth, no hardware failures besides soy sauce jamming up my spacebar, and a consistent experience overall. I get people's criticisms, but I also think people need to chill out a bit, and that some of the vitriol is being manufactured by journalists(for better or worse, it's popular right now to attack Big Tech). If you don't like the butterfly keys, you can still buy a 2015 MacBook brand new or refurbished and it's really just as good for most purposes. My main laptop is a mid-2014 MacBook Pro and it's still working great with Mojave.
• schappim 8y ago
  There is a petition to get Apple to recall the keyboards. Previous discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16997476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16997476
• marter 8y ago
  This again?
• fumar 8y ago
  I just came back to a MacBook Pro 2018 after several years of experimenting with Windows machines. Based on this thread I am outlier – I enjoy using the trackpad, touch strip, and the keyboard seems fine. In the past five years I have used the following; Thinkpad x230, Thinkpad X1 carbon, Thinkpad x370 yoga, Thinkpad X1 Yoga, Surface Pro 3,4,5, Surface Laptop, Surface Book 1,2, and a hackintosh Thinkpad X230. I was a big fan of the ThinkPads because their keyboards tend to have solid travel and they have trackpoint. Having the ability to type and move the cursor without moving your hands off home row is great. The Surface lineup has built in touch and pen capabilities that does come in handy for note taking in meetings. As does the Thinkpad Yoga line. For a year or so, I thought the ThinkPad Yoga line was a good compromise. But, then I started to have problems with random reboots, PWM screen, bluetooth issues, random CPU usage. I chalked that up to part Windows. I bought a refurbished top-spec x230 and hackintoshed that. It was a good middle ground for "user upgradable hardware" + MacOS. I kept that thing for 1.5 years and towards the end I used it as my primary device. That was the start of me creeping back to MacOS. edit: Newer Thinkpad models made battery replacement harder by removing the swappable second battery option. I carried the x230 everywhere with an extra battery that was awesome, but I still didn't get great battery life. I look back and find it funny that I carried up to two batteries around for that thing and probably had less battery life than the new MacBooks. I prefer to have something that just works. I bought the MacBook 2018 upon release and its been a workhorse with zero issues thus far. Day to day, I work in adtech and dabble in python on the side. I can't say that for any of the machines above. I even hook this up to en eGPU and play Dirt Rally on high settings. I miss the TrackPoint and touch screen of some other models but I am doing just fine. Instead, I use an iPad Pro with pencil. That is a far better tablet for writing than the Surface line due to the superior app ecosystem on iOS (see Paper, procreate, Pixelmator Photo, Affinity design and photo, etc).
  • nrjames 8y ago
    I have a 2016 MBP and love the keyboard. I've never had any problems with it. That's not to dismiss people who have experienced quality issues. I don't mind the touch bar, but it's not particularly useful.
    • 8y ago
• bluedino 8y ago
  I wonder if the resellers have been facing any backlash from this. Best Buy has taken $400 off both the base 13" model (earlier this week) and the base 13" touchbar model (right now). Clearing out inventory for incoming new models? Or just discounting them so they'll actually sell?
• NoblePublius 8y ago
  Writing this from a two month old MacBook Air with broken H key (at my desk with external keyboard!)
• mroche 8y ago
  The butterfly keyboards drive me crazy. They sound like a constant drove of woodpeckers going to town on a keyboard, and to me they just don’t feel right when traversing. I own the full size wired aluminum keyboard and it’s honestly my favorite thing. It’s used on my Linux systems and Windows ones. Not a huge fan of mechanical keyboards and this one is thin, fast to traverse, and quiet to use. I was devastated when they ended support for it as they unveiled the iMac Pro.
• slezyr 8y ago
  Damn, there are problems in all hiend laptop in these comments. I guess I'll stick to xiaomi, at least I can buy two for price of XPS/X1/Mac.
• flowersjeff 8y ago
  The fact that there's well over 250+ comments and growing here alone, shows just what a sh*tshow this keyboard is. I was in the market for a new laptop, but the feel of these just turned me off. So I got a 'new' used laptop off of craigslist. Coupled to this, I've had a number of friends (three so far) with issues. One had Apple not only replace their keyboard but looking over the bill of work - replaced the MB and some other components. All because their "e" key didn't work?... They were covered, so no costs - except not having their work computer for the couple of days. The fact (for me ;-) ) that chromebooks have better feelings keyboards ought to be a wake up call. It really seems like there's no one in charge of late, and perhaps a single a-hole demanding stuff work/clean design/simple is more needed than ever before.
• knownastron 8y ago
  My Masters program of about 30 people were all given 2018 MacBook Pros in August 2018. We've all been using it as our primary laptop since then and there has one keyboard problem that Apple did end up fixing. I've also spilled maybe half a cup of water directly the keyboard of my 2017 MacBook Pro and it still works just fine to this day (I've since given the laptop to my dad). Just hoping to add some more data to the conversation.
• smrtinsert 8y ago
  I'm no fan of macs despite the fact I have to use one for work and I own a mini personally, but come on - you literally don't have to eat over a computer. How does that even work? You take a bite and chew while typing? Take 5 minutes and finish your meal somewhere else.
• cmiles74 8y ago
  A co-worked of mine convinced the company to buy them a MacBook (the first the company has ever purchased) to replace their aging Dell laptop. They have been doing more and more work on the company's iOS app and the aging Mac mini the company had purchased needed to replaced anyway. After having the laptop for just over a year, they called me upset as the laptop would no longer power on. After some gentle interrogation they admitted that they had eaten a snack near the laptop and that, perhaps, a small amount of seltzer had "hit the keyboard". I had them bring it to the Apple Store and Apple refused to repair it under the warranty as it had "water damage." I had asked the company to purchase the extended warranty but that had been lost in the shuffle. My co-worker ended up shelling out ~$1000 out of pocket as they needed to get work done and they had very real feelings of guilt. After all, they did _eat_ near to the laptop. I agree no laptop should get wet, or have a dollop of guacamole sauce splashed across the keyboard, or have the display sprayed with a fine mist of Coca-Cola as someone laughs and an unexpected joke. But these things happen and I don't think Apple is helping anyone by making laptops that can't withstand these common mishaps.
  • deleted 8y ago
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  • alexhutcheson 8y ago
    Is it normal for companies to expect employees to pay for accidentally damaged equipment? At everywhere that I've worked, some accidental damage was treated as a cost of doing business, and IT would replace it.
    • jcomis 8y ago
      No that is not at all normal
    • cmiles74 8y ago
      I don't think so... Generally all of the Dell's have an extended warranty and, so far, most of the damage has been covered under that. Where I work there is also an insurance policy to cover laptop damage, they are currently in talks with the insurance company to get the damage covered. I think that in the end my co-worker will be refunded the money. I don't think they will be left with the bill.
• schwank 8y ago
  Recently traded my corporate 2015 MBP 13 for a 2017 non-touchbar MBP 13. In short - it's terrible. The keyboard is extremely loud and I personally don't like the tactile feel. Battery life seems worse than my 2015 model. Bluetooth is sketchy, and it seems to take very little load before the fan ramps up for takeoff. Combine that with only 2 USB-C ports, so I need to carry port replicators and converters for travel. Anecdotally, I know of at least 3 people on my team that have had keyboard issues with this model, generally in the first year of deployment. I'm not a Mac fan in general, I use Android phones and run Linux at home. I chose the MBP in lieu of an even worse Windows experience. I really think my employer is trying to influence us all to BYOD. As my role requires software that is not supported on Linux, I'm stuck choosing between two undesirable options, but right now I'm leaning towards buying a Dell and dealing with Windows as the Mac hardware is just infuriating.
• musicale 8y ago
  The butterfly keyboard is a disaster, but the trackpad with its completely broken palm rejection is much worse. It's amazing how a feature (palm rejection) that worked fine on previous Apple laptops doesn't work on current models.
• martinpw 8y ago
  The Benjamin Button review of improvements in older Macs compared with newer ones: https://blog.pinboard.in/2016/10/benjamin_button_reviews_the_new_macbook_pro/ https://blog.pinboard.in/2016/10/benjamin_button_reviews_the...
  • tzakrajs 8y ago
    Guess this guy was pleased with his slower processor too.
    • arbie 8y ago
      Keyboard and processor are unrelated dimensions of improvement.
    • toomuchtodo 8y ago
      Probably still come out ahead with the additional time spent slower processing entails compared to Genius Bar visits and repair times. Ferrari vs Camry sort of thing.
    • gnicholas 8y ago
      I spend less than 10% of my time at my computer maxing my processor. I spend more than 90% of my time using the keyboard. I’ve seriously considered selling my 2017 MBP and buying a 2018 MBA. Then I heard the problems still haven’t been solved with that model and nixed that idea. But I would much rather have a slower machine with a reliable/comfortable keyboard than a faster machine with a brittle/uncomfortable one.
      • randallsquared 8y ago
        Speed and utilization are not the same. My 2018 MBP was a great speed improvement over the 2015 MBP I previously used, even in cases where the 2015 MBP wasn't using all cores (which really rarely happened, since for the workloads I use, multiple Electron apps and Docker for Mac, typing in Slack would start stuttering as soon as multiple cores were in constant use). I don't think it was ever usable enough at 6-7 cores maxed for me to start new things to try to use that last core...
• davidandgoliath 8y ago
  I abandoned apple in Dec. of '17 after 5+ years in the ecosystem & went on a hefty soul search for what to use next. I knew the touchbar was sort of a warning flare that they were trending away from what I'd need out of computing. After frustrations with windows / linux (laptop, dell xps 13), I ended up shelling out a bunch of money to get a macbook pro '16 with just the two ports: No touchbar. Had to have the top replaced within 6 months due to keyboard. The two ports heated up and pushing heavy throughput via wireless would make bluetooth go apeshit. Sold it immediately afterwards, endured a few more frustrating months with linux. Got a '17 pro, surely they had fixed things. Keys started sticking. Replacement, sold it. Now on a '19 macbook air, because surely they've fixed it, yes? Keys are sticking after less than ~10 uses. My desktop has been linux powered since that soul search started, without issue. The trackpad on my lenovo x5c is working wonderfully under ubuntu after I realized I had been importing broken configs from my 10+ year old backups: Exclude your dotfiles. I only miss two things from the entire ecosystem: ulysses (the text editor) & little snitch. Everything else about linux is far superior.
  • gnicholas 8y ago
    > Now on a '19 macbook air, because surely they've fixed it, yes? Is there a 2019 MBA? I thought it was most recently updated in 2018. It certainly feels better than the older models, and even a smidge better than the 2018 MBP, which was updated earlier in the year. But there are still reports of issues with the 2018 MBA, including in the WSJ writeup IIRC.
    • davidandgoliath 8y ago
      Keen point: It's likely the '18. Bought early '19. Regardless, keys already becoming non-functional on the left-hand side of it after very little use.
• zamalek 8y ago
  I joined HN during the Ballmer/Jobs era. Back then the community seemed predominantly Apple and [rightfully so] very weary of Microsoft. Getting to that point took Apple a huge amount of work; I still remember the days when Apple purely existed for Adobe and DAWs. Apple had to climb a mountain of consumer apathy in order to displace Microsoft. The hardware specs have never been great (which is why I personally never made the switch), but Apple was good enough for nearly everything and I could never argue against Apple build quality. The tables seem to have switched. Microsoft is putting out some unbelievably good hardware, my MSFT friends have surfaces and I drool over them (without worrying about breaking the keyboard :) ). My Dell isn't that bad, certainly superior to anything Apple has on offer (the touchpad sucks as always, but I have a bluetooth trackball). Windows is now a great OS. Microsoft is now facing the very same mountain of consumer apathy that Apple faced. It does seem to be changing. There was an Ask HN thread yesterday asking about setups, and the amount of "Install Windows 10" or "Install Linux" I saw on HN was utterly bizarre.
• lcnmrn 8y ago
  Actually it's the best keyboard I ever type on. I just loved. I have a 13-inch MacBook Pro Touch Bar at work. It's fast and reliable with every key press.
  • headsupftw 8y ago
    I second this. You may hate the butterfly keyboard but I love it. So claiming the design has clearly failed is a little bit of a stretch.
    • ravitation 8y ago
      I completely agree, scrolled through a lot to get to some positive comments. Love the keyboard, especially considering how thin my 13" MBP is (I have a "huge" Windows laptop also, since I work in CAD development, and its keyboard is pretty good too). I do generally dislike the touch bar though (it does have its moments). One thing I find interesting, is that the first couple dozen of negative comments are from people saying "I left Apple products behind X years/months ago"... Not necessarily people that use Apple products, or this keyboard, daily.
    • stevewodil 8y ago
      The design has failed not because a majority of users dislike the feel of the keyboard. It's a failure because of, well, the failure rate of said keyboard...
• kaikai 8y ago
  The larger trackpad, the touchbar, and the crappy keyboard might all be easing us towards fully touchscreen computers. The larger trackpad gives us more touchable real estate, getting us used to making gestures to control screen behavior. The touchbar is similar- getting us used to changing collections of touchable buttons rather than the static keys available on a keyboard. Maybe a crappy keyboard is part of that plan, providing a worse user experience to make the transition away from keyboards completely an easier pill to swallow.
• meche123 8y ago
  This is the corporate disease. If everybody is following the procedures, then there is only one way - forward. Nobody can take a step back to analyse the current state, or admit that the company made mistake. Life goes on, the managers are taking their big bonuses, the engineers will continue to make useless inventions, and probably in few iterations a new keyboard will be announced, without admitting anything wrong with the current product.
• FabHK 8y ago
  I got the MacBook Pro end of 2016, when it came out (reluctantly, as it was so much more expensive than the MBA it replaced). Since then, every part of it has been replaced (under Apple Care) except the bottom plate. The cables (USB-C power cable, USB-C to lightning) are totally broken and frazzled out, unusable, too (no replacement under Apple Care, but hey, what's $55 among friends?). However, I must admit, I did use the machine and also even moved it regularly. It doesn't seem designed for that.
• luckyorlame 8y ago
  blah blah blah
• intrasight 8y ago
  Put your laptop in its "dock", and use a cheap, indestructible keyboard that'll be far superior to the laptop's keyboard.
• matchagaucho 8y ago
  The warranty on my MacBook expired, but Apple replaced the keyboard under their "Quality" coverage program. So, to some extent I felt they "admitted" the mistake. But when the new keyboard fails, and the repair costs fall on me, I'll be looking for an alternative. For comparison, my 2012 MacBook Air keyboard still rocks.
• KhoomeiK 8y ago
  What? The butterfly keyboard is great. I went from about 96 WPM on traditional mechanical keyboards to over 110 on the butterfly. It feels great and the short travel time combined with clickiness really works nicely.
• thegayngler 8y ago
  I guess Im just an outlier as I love the butterfly keyboard. It is certainly my favorite thing about the new macs. I still have my 2016 Mac and it is in prime condition. I am a light touch typer. Therefore I dislike having to mash my fingers down into the keys to register the click.
  • pil4rin 8y ago
    Same!
  • theonemind 8y ago
    I have a bit of repetitive strain injury so I try to use a mechanical keyboard with light force requirement and not bottom out the keys. Reducing travel and force when typing seems to help. I also like the butterfly keyboard a lot, so it probably works great for light typers.
  • lenocinor 8y ago
    I like it too (2019 version). I hated it the first three weeks, but now it's great and I prefer it to my old 2012 MacBook Pro keyboard. Maybe I'll hate it again in six months or a year if it dies like many other people's have, but for now it's great, at least.
• dysoco 8y ago
  Yet she went on and bought another Macbook, and this is not the only case I've heard of about "Macbooks have gone crap but what else am I supposed to do about it?" Well, the problem is that you've bought into the ecosystem so hard now it's impossible to you to get out, I agree, maybe you don't feel like Windows or Linux are going to solve your problems (although I don't think this to be true) , but the problem is if you keep buying Apple products the company will retain the monopoly. If you want Apple to either improve their hardware or open up their software to other manufacturers then I feel like the only way is to stop buying their products. And it's not only about hardware/software quality, it's also about their despicable relationship with customers.
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
• makecheck 8y ago
  Apple seems to focus more on the “can cost a lot” definition of “Pro”, and not the “get important work done” definition of “Pro”. The only correct course when offered a more-expensive and clearly-regressing machine is to not buy it (though I suspect Apple might actually have come out making more money this time around). They need to also realize that if anyone is likely to accept reasonable trade-offs (like thickness) in favor of a better work machine, it’s “pros”! It is insane to regress at this price/feature level.
  • hollander 8y ago
    Apple has lost sight of it's original motto to be independent, creative and do the things that other people didn't dare to do or simply never thought of. This created a cult, often despised, but mostly admired, and being part of that cult was more important than having the best technical value for the money. Now their purpose seems to maximize on making money off the brand value. That won't last. There is no vision anymore. Well, the "vision" is thinner, thinner, thinner, and all the while make it twice as expensive. I suppose there is a real market for this, many people may want it, but I think there are many users who don't care about 1cm thicker laptops, or having the fasted custom made ssd-connector. They prefer lower price and swappable disks and batteries. Oh and working keyboards. I'm glad with my 2015 macbook with good keyboard, but I don't know what I would do if this thing crashed tomorrow...
• babyslothzoo 8y ago
  I too experience keyboard problems on the new MacBook Air keyboard design. Spontaneously unresponsive keys, and a spacebar that inserts two spaces regularly. In any endeavor that requires precision syntax to be entered in a reliable manner, that is an obvious problem. On a positive note, the new MacBook Air has an Escape key, function row, and does not include a Touch Bar.
• deminature 8y ago
  To play devil's advocate, I've fully adjusted to the butterfly keyboard design and find the travel of the older keys excessive and unnecessary work for my fingers. All my colleagues type 8hr+ a day on the butterfly keyboard without complaints. While I have experienced the annoyance of debris getting caught underneath keys, it seems like a problem of refinement of the design rather than tossing it out entirely, as many seem to be advocating. I'm not sure articles like these are indicative of general sentiment towards the design. People enjoying the keyboard have no reason to comment about it, because having an opinion that you enjoy the status quo isn't interesting or worth sharing.
  • wingworks 8y ago
    I have a 2017 MBP and a few months in keys started to fail, I eventually got it repaired by 2 AASP, but had a TERRIBLE experience with Apple support (first repair agent they told me to send it to I later found out was known to be terrible and ended up breaking more than fixing on my laptop, I did my own research then and found a good AASP to get the first AASP work fixed). All in all, it took over half a year to get it all fixed. I rarely have a need to go to Apple to get things fixed but this one incident really soured my view of Apple support. Having said all that, since then the replaced keyboard has worked without fault since, so they must have put in a slightly refined one.
  • makecheck 8y ago
    They can’t just “refine” it if their 3rd iteration still has problems and it’s been years. They would have been better off reverting. And honestly, I’m not sure I will trust them if they get up on stage again with another “all new” design. I want them to basically say “we went back to exactly the same design as our 2013 laptops”.
    • stevewodil 8y ago
      The next generation keyboard (I'm guessing) will be a sealed set of raised keys that uses the taptic engine to simulate a keypress, similar to how the touchpads on MacBooks work now. This will be a good change because not only will it fix the issues of dust and crumbs and outright key failure, but it could also provide some protection against small spills onto the keyboard. I just purchased a 2018 MacBook Pro and I actually kind of enjoy using the keyboard, but I'm worried about keyboard failures in the future, and on a $2500 laptop I shouldn't have to worry about that. I'm considering returning it and waiting for a 2019 model with a redesigned keyboard, but I haven't completely decided yet...and it's possible that Apple will just refresh the 2019 MacBooks with new processors, and not address the keyboard issues this year.
• gotrythis 8y ago
  After using Windows since the beginning, I switched to Mac and leased a top-of-the-line MacBook and iPad, lured in by their great build quality and Mac-only software. Neither reliably works for input! The Mac has the keyboard issue, and the iPad has the less well known issue with randomly not being able to recognize fingers. Neither is fixable. When the lease is up this fall, I will own them. The Mac will become a desktop testing machine, as it's useless as a laptop. The iPad works with pen, so I'll still use it for some purposes. But I wish I could sell them! I can't though, because unlike Apple, I could not ethically sell these to some other sucker. Such a waste of money. I've lost all respect for Apple and will avoid them at all costs from now on. Getting the next MS Surface Book for my next laptop.
  • rocky1138 8y ago
    If you're concerned about ethics when you go to sell, you can confirm with the buyer that they have owned one previously and know what they are getting into. That way, you're in the clear.
• milhous 8y ago
  Tim Cook needs to do the right thing and hold a VP accountable for this, as well as for the thermal throttling and T2 bugs, flex cable failure, iPad chassis deformation, AirPower vaporware, etc. Phil Schiller? Dan Riccio? John Ternus? Sounds like Apple needs Bob Mansfield to run the hardware division again.
• Simulacra 8y ago
  After 13 years of Apple I’m on my last iPhone, and MacBook. The company has gone backwards, with phones and with computers, and I regret the day I have to slide back to the PC.
• thelittleone 8y ago
  So far I have spent over $5k ferrying my 2017 Macbook Pro (15" with touchbar) to and from Apple. Is this a super isolated hardware situation or have others experienced similar? - March 2018 I start my laptop in the morning to find the screen doesn't go on. I take it to the service center in Bali where they inform me it will take 6+ weeks to service. I can't do 6 weeks without my primary work device. I fly to Sydney and visit the genius bar. They replace the screen and the logic board (losing all the data) ($750 flight + other expenses). I fly back to Bali (battery's ~ 80%) open up the laptop and find that the screen is dead again. After a week of conversations with Apple they agree to give me a new MBP but I have to fly to Sydney to get it ($750 flight + other expenses). - March 2019 screen stops working. I fly to Kuala Lumpur where the authorised service center says 3 weeks to fix. That won't work, so I fly on to the new apple store in Bangkok. They replace the screen and logic board (losing all data) ($1.5k) - April 2019 (5 weeks later) the screen gets pink lines. I fly back to Bangkok, they replace the screen (another $1.5k on travel) and offer me $980 off a new MBP + free 3 year applecare. So far 12 international flight sectors, over $5k in expenses (hotels / flights etc) and 6 weeks with no device. To stay on Apple I'm having to seriously consider a second standby laptop. Or make the switch to Windows as Dell has fast domestic warranty repair.
• remote_phone 8y ago
  Apple deserves a multi-billion dollar class action lawsuit over these keyboards. I don’t know why some ambulance chaser hasn’t taken this up As a cause yet, this would be the first class actions lawsuit I would support.
• v41k 8y ago
  Is this weird guerilla marketing for The Outline? These articles aren't really very good.
• logjammin 8y ago
  Jumped ship from Apple a couple of years ago and haven't looked back. Thinkpad laptop and homemade PC with mechanical keyboard: they're fast, easy to type on, and I'm lucky enough to be sufficiently savvy to fix most issues on my own. OSX is still the superior OS - by orders of magnitude, in my mind - but Apple has simply stopped trying. Prices up, quality down. The only exception remains the good ol' iMac - possibly their greatest non-phone achievement. But the design hasn't changed in a billion years, you can't really upgrade it, and there's no decent GPU solution. Windows-land ain't wonderful, but I'm priced out of Appleworld and I've lost my patience with it. Until something better comes along OS-wise, I'm happy where I am. (I use Linux occasionally too and enjoy it.) With respect to typing, though, man oh man: Thinkpad keyboards? Cherry MX switches? I know which rock I'm dying on.
• boulos 8y ago
  Amusingly, the bad keyboard plus touchbar has made me finally use my Capslock as Escape instead of Control, making me more balanced between emacs and vi. Thanks, I guess?
• karmakaze 8y ago
  Apple's mistake is not putting the membrane over the keys instead of under it. With the engineering that's already gone into the keyboard, just go the rest of the way and make a membrane keyboard that has good tactile response.
• DatXN 8y ago
  One side questions, what do you guys think about Apple Magic Keyboard 2 typing experience compare to MacBook Pro 2014-2015 series (or ThinkPad T, X series). I’m thinking of buying one as a backup for my 2017 MBP Touchbar Keyboard.
• neop1x 8y ago
  There are nice USB external keyboards available, you know. With a proper set of dongles, you can set yourself a proper typewriter. :P