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Apple announces Apple Card credit card
- cinquemb 8y agoCant sell enough phones, so gotta sell debt as well… brilliant… cant wait to see what innovation they come up with next!
- jonlorusso 8y agotbf, they milked that phone gravy train for a good decade. the only new "features" left to talk about these days are the size and location of a "notch".
- cinquemb 8y agoVery true, they did a good job. Time to go the way of ol' yeller now? I can only imagine the kind of derivatives GS is looking to write on this in the future…
- jwildeboer 8y agoUS only?
- saagarjha 8y agoThat’s all they’ve announced for now.
- yipeedipee 8y agoYeah. Wish it would come to the UK. We have great debit account apps now like Monzo/Starling but a modern credit card would be amazing.
- momentmaker 8y agoThis presentation by a16z talks about the next gen tech of consumer spending: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK9owf0PSZU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK9owf0PSZU
- nabaraz 8y agoHighlights: - 2% on all Apple Pay purchases - 3% on Apple purchases. - Zero fees - Virtual card numbers - Privacy
- saagarjha 8y agoOh, and 1% on physical card purchases.
- wnevets 8y ago>- Virtual card numbers can you create your own?
- durability 8y agoDidn’t say. The card number will be unique to each device though.
- shoo_pl 8y agoProbably not. This is exactly how Apple Pay works - every physical card you add to apple pay is added to your phone/watch/laptop with a different number. If you delete card from your phone and add it again, its has yet another number. All those unique numbers are handled by your bank and linked to single card account.
- saagarjha 8y agoNo, each “purchase” gets its own code to keep them separate to merchants.
- nerfhammer 8y agoProbably a temporary CC number generator for internet purchases. You would not be able to "choose" a vanity number of your own choosing besides being really insecure but also because CC numbers have to fit an algorithmic pattern to be valid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_algorithm
- wnevets 8y ago
- jak92 8y agoHow is it private? Seems like all the metadata is still there...
- tosh 8y agoafaiu from the announcement: Apple doesn’t know what you purchased, Goldman Sachs is not allowed to sell the data.
- 4ad 8y agoAnd Mastercard?
- theshrike79 8y agoVirtual card number for each transaction, no way for them to track a single user.
- criddell 8y agoVirtual card number but still assigned to a named user.
- saagarjha 8y agoPresumably, the metadata stays on your device or is guaranteed to not be sold.
- durability 8y agoIn the stream they seem to suggest that it’s “private” in the sense of 1. Apple doesn’t get any information (it’s all done on-device) 2. The data GS gets (and probably needs to keep, for auditing/paper trail) they “will never sell.” This probably means they have some kind of special agreement? Not sure what MasterCard would get though.
- kevin_b_er 8y agoAs it goes thru mastercard's network, they will get who your card bought from, the [hidden] card number at the time, and the name on the card. Unless Apple has gotten mastercard to not generate any of that data, there's a standard CC hidden in there. There's also a name attached to it. Merchants get bits of this data for fraud prevention. They get it from Mastercard.
- ckastner 8y ago> get a digital card that they can use anywhere Apple Pay Apply Pay users: how broad is Apply Pay adoption? Is this a viable replacement for a VISA, Mastercard or AMEX? I'm intrigued by the privacy angle to this, seeing as VISA and Mastercard apparently share and/or sell a lot of transaction data with/to third parties. Edit: The article has been updated: As rumored, Apple is partnering with Goldman Sachs for Apple Card, with Mastercard handling payment processing. The mastercard network, plus the benefits Apples is offering (eg 2pct cashback), could make this really attractive.
- jki275 8y agoThere's a physical card you can use as well.
- 4ad 8y ago~~But not online. Online is ApplePay only.~~ Edit: Apparently not.
- briandear 8y agoNo true. You can use your standard card numbers online without Apple Pay. You get the numbers from within the wallet app.
- nightski 8y agoI'm not going to get an Apple credit card heh. But where did you see this info? They said the number & ccv would be available via the apple wallet app for use online (although you only get 1% back).
- saagarjha 8y agoThere’s an actual card number and CVV code associated with the card.
- 4ad 8y agoYes, but how do you access them?
- fumar 8y agoI like the value proposition; simple and more transparent credit management with increased privacy. This now has to complete with cards that have consumer purchase protection, customer service, and airline benefits.
- maxxxxx 8y agoNot sure what to think of this. Somehow I would prefer if Apple kept building technology platforms that then enable other parties to develop solutions but instead they seem to be moving into a totally integrated platform. The business success is there but from a technology point of view I find Apple has been pretty unexciting over the last years. They have turned into a well run big tech company like Microsoft under Ballmer. Good business but not very exciting.
- buboard 8y agoI think all their announcements are going to be good for developers / their ecosystem. So it's probably positive they are getting some love, and hopefully some increased revenue too
- beenBoutIT 8y agoTo be fair, the guy behind all of their innovation died more than a decade ago.
- ceejayoz 8y agoI don't think it's fair say that. Jobs had an unparalleled way of steering that innovation into productive avenues. He always had his Wozzes, though.
- maxxxxx 8y agoI think his main talent was to recognize innovation and then having a good instinct for the right timing to get to market. Some people are too early, some too late, but Jobs often seemed to find the right time and also had the courage to pursue something risky. Cook probably is more like a typical manager who is good at optimizing things. Nothing wrong about that but I wouldn't expect big leaps from Apple under him.
- 333c 8y ago> the guy behind all of their innovation died more than a decade ago. Who?
- cygned 8y agoIt sounds like Apple's doing a lot of things very right with Card. I am curious when it's going to be available here in Germany.
- chrisseaton 8y agoI’ve found in the past Germans aren’t always keen on credit cards - they often push back when you try to use them in shops and restaurants and things like ticket machines at railways only seem to take regional debit cards. Trying to use an American Express gets a very bad reaction. Is that changing?
- arrrg 8y agoIt’s probably changing, I think, but American Express is also one of the worst credit cards you could try to use in Germany. Mastercard and Visa are much more widely accepted.
- vlozko 8y agoIf you can even find a merchant that accepts credit cards! While in Berlin, the only place I came across that accepted credit cards was my hotel and a Starbucks. Every lunch and dinner place I went to were cash-only.
- chrisseaton 8y agoWait so I don't understand. You're saying almost nobody accepts credit cards, and someone else is saying almost everywhere accepts them. My experience is definitely that they don't accept them, outside of international places like airports and hotels. In the UK everywhere has a payment terminal and that terminal accepts absolutely anything - credit, debit, Apple, AmEx, prepaid, cash-card, whatever. I don't know why Germany picks and chooses.
- kevingrahl 8y agoGerman here; MasterCard and Visa are accepted almost everywhere even the smallest shop usually offers contactless payments (tap). Amex on the other hand is a rarity and you should expect that it doesn’t work.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jmsuth 8y agoI wonder if Plaid or Yodlee will be able to pull balances and transactions from it
- nabaraz 8y agoWith the rise of smartphone payments like Samsung Pay, Android Pay and Apple Pay , is there even a need for credit cards? How long until these companies start skipping payment processors like Visa and Mastercard and take the whole pie?
- Hippocrates 8y agoI suspect these are the first logical steps in doing just that.
- CSDude 8y agoThere are lots of places where any of the payment methods you mentioned are available, so until then.
- sk5t 8y agoYMMV but I absolutely will not bite on non-creditcard-facilitated payments until/unless the same or better consumer protections are in place.
- coldtea 8y agoWho said they are not?
- 8y ago
- bxio 8y agoInnovative privacy features in exchange for sub-par rewards. RIP us North of the border, though.
- freyir 8y ago2% cash back on all purchases through the phone with no annual fees? I’d wager this is much better than what the majority of Americans currently have.
- jki275 8y agoYes, and 3% for purchases from Apple, 1% for purchases using the physical card.
- freyir 8y agoYes, and 1% isn’t the best rate available, but you could always fall back to another rewards card instead of using the physical card.
- jumbopapa 8y agoThere's multiple 2% cards with no fees.. Citi Double Cash, Fidelity Visa, PenFed Power Cash Not to mention cards like the Chase Freedom Unlimited where 1.5% is closer to 3% when redeemed through their travel portal.
- freyir 8y agoRight. Those are the best unlimited rates you can get, and Apple is matching that rate with their digital card. The downside is that their physical card rate (1%) is not as competitive, but they're trying to nudge people/businesses towards digital payments.
- basch 8y agoCostco's card is 4% on gas and 3% on restaurants and travel. Depending on your spending habits, you are probably better off having 1 general purpose card, and then a card or two from the businesses you spend the most money at (target, amazon, walmart, costco etc) or one that fits your spending profile. The Apple Card might make a good general spending card, but you should still have one that gets you 4-5% somewhere.
- danesparza 8y agoI wish they had a debit card. I would love a debit card with all these features.
- saagarjha 8y agoThe cash back features, or just the financial UI and privacy improvements? Because I doubt any bank would give you the former.
- intopieces 8y agoWhy do you prefer a debit card over a credit card?
- mortenjorck 8y agoI don’t know about the OP’s reasoning, but for me, it’s much easier to track spending with only a debit card than with a credit card that I periodically pay off from my checking account. A single stream of transactions is much easier to budget than one that cascades into the other.
- intopieces 8y agoThat makes sense. Some banks offer the ability to track all accounts in one place, but my bank’s implementation is not that good and I haven’t found a good app I can trust to do it.
- sureshv 8y agoThe apple cash card is basically a prepaid Discover debit card.
- mrkstu 8y agoThey have Apple Cash, which you could load up, and where your cash rebates end up from the Apple Card.
- w-m 8y agoThere was a big emphasis on privacy. Apple does all the categorization and geolocation on device. There was a slide dedicated to the point that Goldman Sachs will never share the data with advertisers. But no word on MasterCard. Will they share the data, is that their business?
- dlubarov 8y agoThe thing is, even if MasterCard excluded Apple Card from the data they sell, very few merchants send transactions directly to MasterCard. There's usually a merchant acquirer involved, and that acquirer might proxy transactions through Visa rather than integrating with the other networks directly. In that case the merchant, the acquirer, Visa, MasterCard and Goldman Sachs would all see the transaction data. Plus there are normally other companies involved when a transaction is settled later, like First Data.
- fragmede 8y agoIt goes Customer -> Merchant -> payment processor (eg PayPal) -> acquirer (eg First Data in the US) -> Visa or MC -> bank the CC comes from (issuing bank) CC transactions are all settled later.
- Shivetya 8y agoI am impressed, however this any some of the other products announced are just a pinata for anti trust advocates. however this product to me is the premier product of the event. finally someone is taking credit card use to the next level in both usability, features, and security. Most important is the level of privacy they are offering. Now if the three percent discount holds true it will be the defacto means of purchasing from apple.com, similar to how for prime users you pretty much have to use the amazon/chase card for five percent on all purchases.
- misterprime 8y agoLikewise. This is disruptive to an entrenched market. Apple got Goldman Sachs to go along with it, too. I dig it.
- jonlorusso 8y ago> this and some of the other products announced are just a pinata for anti trust advocates. I imagined Elizabeth Warren in a fit of rage sitting in her office watching the livestream.
- r00fus 8y agoWhy? I think EW is more worried about bigger fish than Apple's entrance into a crowded market.
- mediocrejoker 8y agoDidn't she include apple in her list of companies she wants to break up?
- speeq 8y agoIssued by Goldman Sachs so I guess it's US only?
- jwagenet 8y agoHow does something like this work in Europe with no signature on the card? When I tried to use a US card without a PIN that I hadn't yet signed, a German checker made a fuss about the missing signature. This isn't a problem in the US where no one bothers checking the signature. What about a brewery I went to this weekend where neither swipe or chip was available for their POS and the card number was manually entered?
- jki275 8y agoopen up the wallet app, get the info and enter it.
- shoo_pl 8y agoAs they said, it only works where Apple Pay works already. And already Apple Pay works almost everywhere there is contactless terminal. Some people say you will be able to see the card number in your Wallet app, but somehow I doubt it. There is already a unique card number for every physical card you added to your walled, but you cannot see it. You can verify it on proof of purchase where last 4 digits are shown - they will differ from your physical card. As for signed/unsigned, it gets vague these days. In the past you were required by your bank agreement to sign your card. If you tried to pay with spouse card the merchant was allowed to call police and destroy the card right away. Today probably are still required to do all that with physical card, but with contactless payments its usually ignored all the time. For Apple Pay you must agree to different set of rules, those don't require you to physically sign anything as its fully digital. Same thing here.
- netsharc 8y agoI remember reading an article a few years ago that said Apple has so much money overseas, the most logical thing they can do is to start a bank. Can't find it atm (I'm on mobile). But maybe that has changed after the GOP's tax law changes.
- pageandrew 8y agoThey aren't starting a bank. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs and is on the MasterCard network.
- sangnoir 8y agoPartnering with a bank to learn the ins and outs could be the first step towards starting a bank. Apple in/famously partnered with Motorola on the ROKR to get a feel of the industry.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- eatbitseveryday 8y agoDoes applying for the card require Apple/GS pull my credit history? I would also prefer this remain unavailable to them.
- pageandrew 8y agoI'm sure it does. They need to verify that you're qualified for credit. I don't believe Apple itself would be the party pulling your credit history though. They've partnered with Goldman Sachs as the issuing bank, so it would probably be Goldman that runs your credit.
- eatbitseveryday 8y agoHow does this work outside of the USA? The credit system here is only for individuals resident in this country, correct?
- kgwgk 8y agoIt doesn't work at all outside the USA. I think it may be a long time before they go abroad.
- dwighttk 8y agohow exactly would you expect that to work? Yes we will give you a card... your credit limit is $0.
- athenot 8y agoThe 2% cashback is especially interesting (in the US, for purchases done with ApplePay). I guess they can get away with a different risk model when they control more of the payment process & security.
- jumbopapa 8y agoThat's not really interesting at all. See Citi Double Cash, Fidelity Visa, PenFed Powercash...
- dwighttk 8y agoall of those have pretty big caveats. Citi seems the closest to straight 2% assuming you pay off your balance all the time, I didn't notice any limits on how you get your 2%. But they do have late payment fees. PenFed you have to be active duty military to qualify for 2%... Fidelity you have to put your 2% (not going to call it "cash") into a Fidelity product, no balance credits.
- jumbopapa 8y agoI use Citi and there are no limits. I pay my balance in full every month and it's actually better IMO because it incentives payments. PenFed you don't have to be military, you can be a member as well and it's a pretty good bank anyways. Fidelity you can use their checking account, so it's as good as cash. Apple requires you to use Apply Pay to earn 2%, so it comes with it's own caveats.
- dwighttk 8y agoCiti has late fees (but yeah, it looks pretty good) Looks like non-active duty PenFed members get 1.5% Fidelity Checking account sounds alright, but why not just balance credit? Until apple pay is much more widely accepted that's a caveat for them. Probably stick around with Capital One 1.5% for now.
- vinay427 8y agoThat's fair, but with caveats you can also get more than 2% back on every purchase and 4-5% on many purchases. For many people, that's easily worth it and I wouldn't settle for a 2% back card.
- ocdtrekkie 8y agoMost interesting claim is that there are no late fees. If you don't pay it on time, I presume they're going to stop letting you continue making charges to the card until you do? But that it never gets you locked into the debt cycle of so many other cards? If true, this is the true real innovation. Or is there interest, but just no fee for not making your payment on time?
- V99 8y agoThey showed interest calculation while deciding how much to pay, so there's definitely interest. But not penalty rates or late fees.
- pcurve 8y agoThere is definitely penalty fee for not paying balance in full. In the video, the fee appeared to be around $20.
- lskopwol 8y agoYour iMessages stop working and your iPhone shuts off randomly a few times a day
- joefife 8y agoHow is that an innovation? You're describing Charge Cards
- ocdtrekkie 8y agoI've... actually never heard of these. Why isn't this more popular?
- tedivm 8y agoOnce debit cards came out charge cards lost a lot of their appeal. Charge cards also tend to have a higher yearly fee (an Amex Platinum is $550 a year) because they aren't making money off of interest (although it should be noted they are making money off of the merchants who accept them).
- finaliteration 8y agoI’d be curious to know how this affects the Barclaycard-backed Apple Rewards card. Is it going away? Or will cardholders be migrated over?
- bit_logic 8y agoDoes Apple Pay and Google Pay work anywhere I see the tap symbol (looks like a rotated wifi symbol)? Or they must also display the Apple or Google Pay symbol? I've seen places that just have the tap symbol and wondered if I could've used my phone.
- petepete 8y agoIt works anywhere where there's a tap symbol, in the UK at least.
- lddemi 8y agousually yes. never hurts to try anyway!
- romainsestier 8y agoYes Apple pay and Google pay do work with all contactless payment terminals, however your card may not. If the business does not accept Amex for example, using Apple Pay or Google Pay will not work unless you pick a different card.
- atombender 8y agoGenerally, yes, at least in the US. There are exceptions; some chains have decided not to support Apple Pay, for example. But the contactless symbol generally means any kind of contactless payment system is accepted, including Apple Pay.
- saagarjha 8y agoYes: https://www.apple.com/apple-pay/where-to-use/ https://www.apple.com/apple-pay/where-to-use/
- jdlyga 8y agoYes, unless it's broken or the cashier doesn't know how it works. Happens a lot.
- buboard 8y agoI use to snob apple's announcements but really wish this one succeeds. Banks need to feel the pressure hard.
- CedarMadness 8y agoIt's a Goldman Sachs Mastercard with some Apple-specific perks, banks aren't going to be feeling anything.
- AznHisoka 8y agoJust allow me to create as many 'virtual' credit cards from a single card and that's enough. Every single provider that promised that feature has either underwhelmed, or gone out of business.
- mbrynard 8y agoRevolut offers this. I can create virtual cards and one-time-use cards.
- ValentineC 8y agoOnly on their Premium plan. It's also sad that they seem to be the one of the few companies outside the US that does this.
- onlyrealcuzzo 8y agoYes. I'm so sick of businesses relying on people not cancelling to exist, and thereby making their calcellation process as time consuming and obtuse as possible to reduce consumers chances of cancelling. Consumers should be able to just NOT pay for a service, and then it's on the service-provider to turn off the customer's access. I can't tell you the amount of services I've past up on simply because I don't want to (potentially) deal with an awful cancellation process, and then go through the hassle of charging back on my CC. It's just not worth the time -- and they know it and depend on it -- which is frankly disgusting. Invest some time in a better product...
- vtange 8y agoDoes their data remain though? If it does then your data would still be in danger of hackers if said business got attacked, etc. Aren't businesses supposed to treat customer data as liabilities now? Some consumers would want complete removal of their data after deciding not to continue paying for service.
- convolvatron 8y ago
- chvid 8y agoI hope this is expanded beyond the US. I would get in a heartbeat; if Apple can expand this offering to Europe and other parts of the world with very little use of credit cards they will be able to create new business at a massive scale.
- pisarzp 8y agoThe problem is credit card business in US is a)much more profitable due to significantly higher interchange fees and b)credit cards adoption is much higher.
- benhurmarcel 8y agoCredit cards would be more popular in Europe if they offered any significant benefit at all.
- gesman 8y agoWhere’s my perks? Lounge access? Hotel discounts? No reason for me to switch from my AMEX or Costco card for puny Apple points. Unless I missed something.
- LikeAnElephant 8y agoIMO those kinds of things come out as less financial benefit than just getting cash back. The exception is for people who travel quite a bit. For me personally, getting ~2% cash back on every purchase would be better than a moderate discount when I actually need to stay at a hotel. Just depends on your situation.
- vinay427 8y agoYou're assuming those people use that card. In my experience, very few use an AmEx Platinum, etc. for most of their everyday purchases, because that wouldn't make sense. You can easily get more than 2% on every purchase (with 4-5% on a majority for some people) if you can make use of travel rewards.
- qntty 8y ago2% is pretty good for a card with no annual fee. You can get more if you use a card like Chase Freedom and keep track of your spending categories, but I don't know of any no annual fee card with more than 2%. Citi Double Cash is the only other 2% card I know of.
- simonsarris 8y agoThe perks aren't great for someone with good card(s) already. Actually, they aren't great to the marginal consumer (who doesn't have any cards yet) either. Square's Cash App card gives 10% off at Trader Joes/Whole Foods/Kroger plus discounts at a host of fast food places, and can be gotten by anyone, even without a bank account or credit check or anything. The downside is its a debit card, the plus is that the rewards compete with A+++ credit cards.
- ajra 8y agoIt seems to me that Apple can offer reduced fees due to the fact that they'll have less fraud as a result of requiring touch/face ID for every purchase. While interesting, it doesn't come close to solving what I feel is the largest problem with cards in the US today -- interchange fees.
- onlyrealcuzzo 8y agoI know this is a MasterCard, but it'd be more interesting if they were able to take out the $0.35 transaction fee on every transaction. This is the bread and butter of every payment processor, and it's complete rent seeking, AND supposedly all the major processors are going to RAISE it at roughly the same time in the coming months. Eliminating the set transaction fee could open up so many potential businesses. But I'm not sure what incentive Apple has of getting rid of it. It's a cash cow.
- dpark 8y agoIndeed, why would Apple want to eliminate that fee? But also, how is this rent seeking? Rent seeking is defined as attempting to take a larger share of existing wealth without increasing total wealth. Electronic payment systems absolutely add to total wealth.
- weberc2 8y agoI'm not one to cry foul every time a company turns a profit, but this industry seems pretty anticompetitive if it's not outright rent seeking.
- ajra 8y agoSounds awfully cartel-like. Unfortunately I agree with you regarding the lack of incentives Apple has. IIRC, the money for cash back rewards comes out of the interchange fee. How do you get consumers to adopt a card that's opaquely better for businesses and immediately worse for themselves?
- 8y ago
- stblack 8y agoThere are some companies I will NEVER voluntarily do business with. Goldman Sachs is among them.
- beenBoutIT 8y agoBernie Sanders railing against Apple/Goldman Sachs = Priceless
- spectramax 8y agoOne of the reasons for having a Credit Card for me is the protection from shady merchants, fraudulent transactions and the assurance of getting my money back if there is a major issue with product/service. AMEX once refunded me $1800 for speakers that were damaged in shipping with some documentation, photos and details about the issue. Now, customer service varies from bank to bank but AMEX has always had the best customer service in my view, bar none. I wonder how Apple Card will stack up to it.
- milin 8y agoam sensing like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymCoiZS0HLA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymCoiZS0HLA ?
- nutjob2 8y agoI beg to differ on that one. When it comes to shonky hotels, Amex, from my experience, will side with them, given that they know what side their bread is buttered on. By comparison my Chase/Visa sided with me when I was ripped off by a shady accommodation listing. I agree totally with the sentiment though, also the 1-2% cash back is great.
- TecoAndJix 8y agoI lost my AMEX on a beach in Hawaii (along with my other forms of payment) and they wired me emergency cash to hold me over until the replacement card could arrive. They were nothing but pleasant to me!
- throwawaysea 8y agoI don't thing it is healthy to have big entities like this control fundamental services like payment processing. How long before the opaque governance of the App Store is applied to their payments offering? How long before activists start making this a new vector for deplatforming? Apple also announced a news offering (https://www.techradar.com/news/apple-news-plus https://www.techradar.com/news/apple-news-plus) and I think the same concerns apply there.
- Swizec 8y agoYou mean like Visa and MasterCard? Yes very unhealthy. Big entities shouldn’t control payments.
- SonicSoul 8y agothe difference is that there re dozens of CC companies which do not share information. Apple already has a lot more info on users then CCs do. edit Apple knows a lot about you IF you use apple products. Didn't think this would be a controversial point :)
- stevenhubertron 8y agohow is this remotely true? Apple has nearly nothing on you. Amex knows what I buy, when, and where.
- SonicSoul 8y agoif you're using their products, why would they not know anything about you? using their phone, app store, itunes, news app, maps appointments.. maybe im missing something? I'm not saying they have your purchase history, but they have a lot
- ashildr 8y agoSo you did inform yourself about Apples technical implementation of those services and the implications for privacy, or did you just make an uninformed guess to post something?
- olivermarks 8y agohttps://www.economist.com/business/2017/10/28/apple-should-shrink-its-finance-arm-before-it-goes-bananas https://www.economist.com/business/2017/10/28/apple-should-s... (2017) 'The world’s biggest firm has a financial arm half the size of Goldman Sachs' '...Apple says that its “value-at-risk” (VAR), a statistical measure of the maximum likely loss in an average day, is $434m. That is huge: similar to the combined VAR of the world’s top ten investment banks. In theory losses on derivatives would be offset by gains in the value of Apple’s underlying business. But the sheer size of these positions gives pause for thought.' '...Its foreign operation swims in cash while its domestic one drowns in debt. Profits made abroad are kept in foreign subsidiaries. That way Apple does not pay the 35% levy America charges when earnings are repatriated. Some 94% of Apple Capital’s assets are “offshore” and cannot be tapped for ordinary purposes. The domestic business must do the hard work of paying for dividends and buy-backs. Its profits are not big enough to cover these, so it borrows. Domestic net debts have risen to $92bn, or five times domestic gross operating profits. Each year Apple must issue $30bn of bonds (including refinancing), similar to the average of Wall Street’s five largest firms. Apple’s core business is so profitable that it is—almost—inconceivable that a blow-up at Apple Capital could lead to it needing taxpayer or central-bank support, as was the case for GM and GE. Still, it is easy to imagine how Apple Capital could hurt its parent. A market shock could lead to losses on its portfolios. A two-percentage-point rise in interest rates would result in a loss of $10bn. If bond markets dried up, Apple might struggle to issue so much debt and have to bring home funds, incurring a big tax bill. It might also become tricky to run such a big derivatives portfolio.'
- jonknee 8y agoWhat's your point with this outdated article? Tons of companies have branded credit cards, it does not mean they have the credit risk. That's what Goldman is for in this situation.
- csomar 8y ago> In theory losses on derivatives would be offset by gains in the value of Apple’s underlying business. But the sheer size of these positions gives pause for thought. What's the point of this article? Apple is so big that its derivatives for protection from FX volatility are so big? What does the author suggests here; that they stop protecting against FX volatility?
- jscholes 8y ago> there’s no credit card number, CVV, expiration date, or signature, with all that authorization information stored directly in the Apple Wallet app. I understand the point is to increase Apple Pay usage, but how would I use this card with online websites which don't support Apple Pay?
- twostorytower 8y agoThat information is available in the Apple Wallet app, just not on the physical card.
- cheeyoonlee 8y agoThe numbers can be found on the Apple Wallet app
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- dvduval 8y agoWill I need an iPhone to use it? If not, any difference in the benefits?
- cbsmith 8y agoFrom the people who brought you privacy... ...we bring you: utter lack of privacy!
- lgleason 8y agoThis should be interesting to watch. Most of the big issues are moving online payments over to a 3d secure spec. 3DS is analogous to what the chip and pin did for physical credit cards when upgrading from magnetic strips. The thing is, it requires the capturing of all of the information Apple claims to not be gathering and then some....in fact, depending on the device you are using it on some of the data capture for 3DS can be downright creepy.
- Marsymars 8y ago> Most of the big issues are moving online payments over to a 3d secure spec. Are they? I had to look this up to see that it's referring to the "Verified by Visa" and "MasterCard SecureCode" products. I had to sign up years ago (2007 for Visa, 2011 for Mastecard) for each of these for some online purchase, but can probably count on a single hand the number of times I've used them, and I think at this point it's been years since I've used either.
- gondo 8y agoOfficial announcement https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/03/introducing-apple-card-a-new-kind-of-credit-card-created-by-apple/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/03/introducing-apple-car... "Apple Card will be available to qualified customers in the US this summer." so US only
- jdlyga 8y ago2% if you use Apple Pay, and 1% if you use the physical card. That's not a very competitive offering.
- spectramax 8y agoI think the whole idea of "Cash back" is insane. Someone, i.e. the consumer, is ultimately paying for these rewards, whether it is airline miles or cashback % or whatever. It is a self-propelling idea that would be almost impossible to kill because doing so would make your credit card offering less competitive. It is also self-propelling from the consumer end. If you don't take advantage of these rewards, you're paying for everyone else's rewards by buying goods and services at a higher price. Some merchants flat out deny certain credit cards such as AMEX.
- AnssiH 8y agoAgreed, I don't think it is a coincidence that here in Finland VISA/MC credit cards don't offer cashback and the merchant fees are much lower than US (Nets offers 0.31% for EU consumer VISA/MC debit cards and 0.9% for EU consumer VISA/MC credit cards). Though I guess lower fraud rate due to chip-and-pin requirement also plays a part.
- kerbalspacepro 8y agoSo, you make a bunch of good points. But consider- some people (most people) can't ever get a "cash back" credit card because of their bad credit. How does that play into your framework?
- ValentineC 8y ago> It is a self-propelling idea that would be almost impossible to kill because doing so would make your credit card offering less competitive. Both the EU and China have introduced legislation that caps merchant fees. This helped with cashless adoption, but also killed off many of the bonus points/miles/cashback offerings.
- rubicon33 8y agoGod these apple events always tend to get massively cringey. Was it the Goldman Sacks partnership? Perhaps it was the titanium credit card I didn't know I needed... Maybe it was the 30+ minutes devoted to a Netflix clone. Or, maybe it was Oprah... "All connected throoough APPLE!!!!!!!!!!" I'm not sure. But somewhere along the way, I lost my lunch.
- grivescorbett 8y agoI see no advantages over the sapphire reserve.
- sfotm 8y agoI don't really see this as a competitor to CSR, and I don't think Apple does either.
- standardUser 8y agoSeems like a subpar card in terms of points. I also find it odd that Apple, a company notoriously averse to discounts and deals, is entering a sector absolutely dominated by nothing but discounts and deals.
- sfotm 8y agoFar as I know, this doesn't come with an annual fee. If you only plan to use it with Apple Pay, it's competitive with Citi Double Cash, which is considered one of the top tier cash-back cards you don't pay yearly for. It seems fairly competitive to me.
- standardUser 8y ago"If you only plan to use it with Apple Pay" That's simply not possible, is it? In terms of an all purpose spending card? I see this as a 1% card with special "categories" that I don't care to keep track of. The world is littered with those. Double Cash is OK, but has international transaction fees last time I checked.
- jumbopapa 8y agoAny news on a signup bonus? The rewards aren't that compelling, so I don't see a reason to apply without a significant bonus.
- rietta 8y agoI want to know what sort of extended warranty insurance they will provide. There was no mention of this in the presentation today. They mentioned giving 3% cash back on anything bought from Apple. Right now American Express is giving me 3% back on all computer purchases and extending AppleCare by 2 additional years. I made the most recent purchase with that card via Apple Pay. So if I went out and bought a new MacBook Pro today, either AppleCare or American Express will pay to repair or replace it for the next 5 years, until March 25, 2025. (Just for using the card).
- rietta 8y agoThis is a HUGE deal for heavily used electronics that tend to fail around the end of the warranty. Amex has paid money back to me for major repairs on the last two MacBook Pros and they paid me the cost of replacing an iPhone 6s when the headphone jack failed.
- exegete 8y agoWhat specific Amex card gives the 3% on computer purchases?
- mikelward 8y agoSounds like the SimplyCash® Plus Business Credit Card lets you pick a 3% category. https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/benefits/detail/choice-selection/simply-cash-plus https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/benefits/det...
- rietta 8y agoThis is it. I picked "U.S. computer hardware, software, and cloud computing purchases made directly from select providers." As a software development company, this choice represents a meaningful discount on some of our biggest ongoing operating expenses. No brainier.
- xster 8y agoWhich card is this specifically?
- mrweasel 8y agoHow does one pay the bill to Apple? I never owned a credit card, only debit cards, and they are tied to your bank account. As I understand it, bank transfers pretty much doesn't work in the US and it not really the way you'd want customers to pay of credit card bills anyway. Denmark has a services that will ensure that your bills are paid automatically, on time, from a bank account you choose. I just never heard that the US having anything similar. I would assume that you can't pay of you bill with another credit card, seeing as that would be illegal, at least in some countries.
- buryat 8y agothats exactly how you pay the credit card bill in the US, via a direct transfer from your bank account or by sending a check
- crooked-v 8y agoThe same way as you pay the bill to any other credit card company: scheduled transfers that pull money from a bank account. (No, this doesn't require any verification on the bank side of things. Yes, this only requires the same routing and account number info printed on every check you write.)
- microdrum 8y agoToday was really disappointing. Takeaway: Apple spent untold shareholder dollars to pay Oprah to say "Appllllllllllle!"
- dman 8y agoMaybe Tim Cook picked this strategy up over dinner with Trump. Trump - "And all these people lined up to pay me to put my name on their products". Tim Cook - Silently taking notes Trump - So, I was telling you about ... Tim, Tim Apple? Tim Cook - Will be back later, on a call with Goldman + Mastercard.
- geddy 8y agoI love the app used to manage spending and paying your bill. It'll definitely be super easy to stay on budget given the fact that you'll have immediate access to up-to-date spending and trends, whereas if I want to do that with my Chase account, I need to login, run numbers, etc. There seems to be a subfocus here about helping you manage your spending, which I can appreciate. The problem with ease of spending money is ease of going into debt, I think I could make this work for my wife and I fairly well, and easily at that. Of course, the practicality of this for each person depends on their typical spending patterns and how often they can use Apple Pay in the first place. If you shop at places that don't accept it, you're pretty much out of luck. Interesting foray into a gigantic industry that loves preying on people's inability to be responsible, though. I can think of a lot of people who could use more oversight with their spending.
- MBCook 8y agoThey give you a physical card that clearly has an EMV chip. Don’t know if it includes MSR. But you should be able to use this almost anywhere, it doesn’t depend on contactless ApplePay.
- geddy 8y agoHah! I'm an idiot. I watched the whole presentation front to back and forgot about the physical card. You are correct and they really did think of all scenarios here. I dig it.
- mikelward 8y agoThey said it doesn't have anything embossed or printed on it, and call it "beautiful", so I doubt it'll have a mag stripe.
- bradfitz 8y agoYou can see what sure looks a mag stripe at 2m58s in the video at https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/25/18277417/apple-pay-credit-card-announcement-goldman-sachs-event-2019 https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/25/18277417/apple-pay-credit... Disappointing.
- aarbor989 8y agoWould they be able to start offering discounts for those who make purchases with an Apple Card vs other credit card? Would be interesting to see if we are having a “credit card neutrality” discussion here in the not too distant future.
- mklarmann 8y agoAs a non US person. Can someone explain the innovation of this? What should be better here? Is there anything I have missed? As I understand from the Wikileaks cables, the American government prevented Russia to establish their own credit card system. So they can better spy on the people as they have full access to MasterCard and visacards transactions. So how can this be about privacy?
- BaconJuice 8y ago> As I understand from the Wikileaks cables, the American government prevented Russia to establish their own credit card system. So they can better spy on the people as they have full access to MasterCard and visacards transactions. Hi, do you mind linking me to some sources to this claim?
- z3t4 8y agoWhat apple sell is social status. Next they will sell clothes and cars.
- apeace 8y ago> Apple doesn’t know what you bought, where you bought it, and how much you paid for it But surely many intermediaries do know this information and store it forever? I'm not sure I see the value of Apple not knowing this information, when credit cards are inherently one of the most trackable and most-tracked purchasing mechanisms ever.
- exegete 8y agoI see the value in not allowing another party in on the transaction data. You're correct that there are other parties that by their nature have to have that information (the merchant, the bank issuing the card, and Mastercard). But, it's good to know that the maker of the device doesn't know it as well.
- crooked-v 8y ago> I'm not sure I see the value of Apple not knowing this information The value to them is the ability to consistently use "we care about your privacy" as a marketing tagline on new product launches.
- amluto 8y agoThis sounds like a mediocre credit card (2% back but only with Apple Pay — if you’re okay with cash back on only some transactions, there are much better cards) with some benefit in the form of a nice experience. I guess that, if Apple’s marketing power can sell a ton of these, there’s considerable upside for them, but it doesn’t sound like a truly impressive innovation.
- microdrum 8y agoIt's 2% cash back on Apple Pay, 3% cash back on Apple products, and 1% cash back on non-Apple Pay, non-Apple products. Do you know a better card that always gives 2% cash back, no cap?
- heywire 8y agoCiti Double Cash?
- jchonphoenix 8y agoThe Uber card actually gives 2% cash back on online transactions, which includes Apple or Android Pay.
- Redoubts 8y agoAnd 4% at Restaurants and Cafes, which is probably half my card-spend. Shame their app from Barclays is dogshit.
- astura 8y agoFidelity Visa is 2% on everything, no cap, no annual fee. Citi DoubleCash is 2% on everything, dunno if there's a cap, no annual fee. (you have to redeem into a bank account, not as statement credit, to get the full 2%) USAA Limitless is 2.5% cash back on everything, no cap. (military only, no longer available), no annual fee. If you have enough cash invested with Merrill Edge ($100,000, including IRAs) the Bank of America Travel Rewards earns 2.625% cash back on everything, not sure of a cap, no annual fee. If you value Membership Rewards at more than a cent, the American Express Blue Business Plus earns 2 Membership Rewards per dollar spent on everything, $50,000 cap, no annual fee. Discover IT Miles earns 3% cash back on everything the first year, churnable (you can get a new one every year), no cap, no annual fee. Alliant Credit Union Cashback Visa earns 3% on everything the first year and 2.5% after that, $60 annual fee (waived the first year), dunno of a cap. Capital One Venture is (basically) 2% cash back on everything, $95 fee (which they usually waive if you ask),no cap. Only redeemable towards travel. Has a fairly large signup bonus. Barclaycard Arrival Plus is 2% on everything, $95 annual fee, not sure of the cap. Only redeemable towards travel. Has a fairly large signup bonus. Paypal Mastercard is 2% on everything, no annual fee, dunno of a cap. Those are your basic options for no-fuss 2%+ cash back cards. If ApplePay is required to earn 2%, then I'd say the majority of those cards are better; my biggest expenses every month are bills (phone, internet, insurance, oil, electricity, etc) and I don't think I can use ApplePay to pay any of those.
- OkGoDoIt 8y agoIf the credit card does not have any numbers on it, how do you make purchases online on sites that don’t directly accept Apple Pay? Does the Wallet app on your iPhone generate virtual card numbers on request that you can use online? Or are you only allowed to use it at websites that explicitly accept Apple Pay? I read through all the official Apple PR stuff and the fine print, don’t see any mention of this.
- OkGoDoIt 8y agoAnother thing to note about having no numbers, I sometimes volunteer to run the box office at a local theater, and we have a little Square reader that only accepts magstrips. But often it doesn’t seem to work properly, so I end up typing the numbers in manually in the Square app. I know it’s not ideal, but when you’ve got 10 people in line you just need to get it moving somehow. How would a store employee deal with a card having no numbers in this situation?
- trillic 8y agoIf you're using Square/Stripe they should just be using Apple Pay anyways it's more secure. If the consumer doesn't have or understand that option I'd recommend they pull up the card number in the app. I use an online-only bank and with my phone and laptop in my pockets it'd probably take me about the same amount of time to pull out a credit card as it would to open my bank app with TouchID. I had a card that won't swipe pretty frequently, after having to have my number typed or to produce a new card for the 3rd time I finally just reported mine broken and a new one was overnighted to me. I've always thought that its the customers burden to produce a working payment method. If I got skipped in line because my card didn't work I'd have no problems letting someone else go ahead of me while I fumbled around with my phone and wallet.
- jbombadil 8y agoI think in the streaming it was mentioned "If you need those, they are available on the app". So I assume if you need those details, you open the wallet app on your phone and you can see the numbers, name, etc. and use it as a regular card.
- randomacct3847 8y agoI could see tech companies banding together to create a Visa competitor.
- samstave 8y agoI am going to state my unpopular opinion once again on HN, but so be it: SCREW GOLDMAN SACHS. So - with that said, without getting mad at me, look at the long history of shenanigans that GS is responsible. Lets start first with the Wolf of Wall Street (the movie) -- if you're not familiar, GS helped the PM of Malaysia rob the country of ~4 billion in profits, from which one of the Playboy-money-guys from Malaysia, steal a large portion of that money, through ridiculous parties and fund the movie Wolf of Wall street. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/1mdb_malaysia-goldman-sachs-criminal-charges-772795/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/1mdb_mal... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1Malaysia_Development_Berhad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1Malaysia_Development_Berhad --- Look into the Greek Scandal, the mortgage crisis, their profiteering on the FB BS (known shenanigans in privacy etc) Look into their raping of the US in the purchase of AIG https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/26/goldman-sachs-aig-backdoor-bailout_n_814589.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/26/goldman-sachs-aig-... --- So with all that being said, I have ZERO faith in ANY consumer protections, rights, favorability in an Apple CC -- look at their pricing and lack of discounting on their excessive margins. Their CC will hold an egregious APR % and draconian penalties for people who fail... and thus, Apple will start being a huge reason for credit failures of millennia's over time who end up on the wrong side of credit responsibility.
- aphextron 8y agoYou should stop getting your news from Hollywood movies. Goldman Sachs is the very face of American capitalism. They are no more guilty than any other large financial institution of their age in shady practices. The problem you have is with the exploitative nature of the global capitalist system itself, not the specific actor. Just take a look at the history of Deutsche Bank, HSBC, or Credit Suisse if you think Goldman is by any means special in that regard.
- monomyth 8y agoSounds a bit like Nuremberg defense, don't you think? "The System ordered us to rob people."
- gigatexal 8y agoI for one love this card and Apple’s direction. I’ll be signing up ASAP. No fees. No penalties. Baked into iOS via the wallet and cash back available daily? Count me in!
- gigatexal 8y agoJust saw on twitter that the interest rates are 13% to 24%. Ugh.
- josefresco 8y ago"No late fees" then... "The company also notes that “late or missed payments will result in additional interest accumulating toward the customer’s balance." Reality distortion field is still going strong I see.
- manishsharan 8y agoAm I the only one who thinks Apple may have run out of ideas? Credit card business is messy with fraud, late payments, disputes, customer service issues etc. This will have anything but a positive impact on the Apple brand. Also, Apple will be a junior partner to Goldman who will do the heavy lifting. Why would Apple want to be the junior partner to Goldman Sachs?
- hardlianotion 8y agoLooking forward to the super high but achingly cool interest rate.
- lol768 8y agoThis is interesting to observe from the UK. - Cashback is generally lower here because interchange fees are regulated/capped to 0.3% for personal credit cards and 0.2% for personal debit cards. Offers of 2% cashback simply won't work outside the US so I'll be curious to see how (if?) they try and expand this globally. - "All of the spending tracking and other information is stored directly on the device, not Apple’s servers" - can't see how this will work in practice. If you lose your phone, do you lose information on historical purchases? What if you want them for your records? Perhaps "spending tracking" just refers to data derived from the transaction information... but then, couldn't you just recompute it? - "Apple also says that it’ll use machine learning and Apple Maps to label stores that you use in the app, and use that data to track purchases across categories like “food and drink” or “shopping.” " - I guess this is novel in the United States, but challenger banks like Monzo/Starling have been doing this for a number of years. - "Customers will also be able to track purchases, check balances, and see when their bill is due right from the app." - not novel, CC providers like Amex and banks like Monzo already do all of this, including push notifications. - "To get an Apple Card, users will be able to sign up on their iPhone in the Apple Wallet app and get a digital card that they can use anywhere Apple Pay is accepted “within minutes.”" - again, not novel. If you sign up for a Monzo account, the KYC checks are done reasonably quickly (certainly same-day IME) and then your account is open. You can add it to Android Pay (https://monzo.com/blog/2018/11/19/instant-google-pay/ https://monzo.com/blog/2018/11/19/instant-google-pay/) and make payments, bank transfer money in instantly etc. Overall, I'm a little perplexed as to why this offering is interesting besides Apple having announced it.
- dharma1 8y agoNew for the US
- lol768 8y agoDon't you have Simple Bank?
- dogma1138 8y agoI get 2-5% cash back on my American Express Platinum card in the UK... There are higher cash back cards also the cash back is usually capped on a monthly basis rather than on a flat %. So far for this year I have £341.92 cash back on the card. Mind you that this isn’t a new card I had it for 5 years.
- darruma 8y agofg
- skybrian 8y ago"Variable APRs range from 13.24% to 24.24% based on creditworthiness. Rates as of March 2019." https://www.apple.com/apple-card/ https://www.apple.com/apple-card/
- ggm 8y agoWhen will they confirm every non-US jurisdiction for meeting compliance in FinTech? i.e. is this just another 'in the US market' announcement? Maybe for apple that IS the market. For Google, its been acknowledged that whilst mountain view likes to release in the USA first, and it is the single biggest market they have, its not actually bigger than the others put together: far from it. Secondly, Most cards run for profit on card processing fees. They are a profit centre to the bank. Is apple running this at a loss for other reasons or is this model of card cash-positive inside 1 year? Because its a long way to the bottom when you have a giant pile of cash, but at some time, in a year based financial reporting regime they will have to account for this thing, and if its not visibly in profit then either they have an opportunity cost/loss or a real world loss.
- photonios 8y agoI got all excited and then realized that almost none of the new services that were announced will offer me anything as a European. Apple Card most likely won't be coming to Europe any time soon. The streaming service is also not likely to come to Europe as it includes US-only services such as Hulu and Amazon Prime. I am aware that this is a bit of a 1st world problem, but all of these services being US-only can be really annoying. Recently I tried to legally stream Battlestar Galatica in Europe. Not available on Netflix or HBO. So I figured I can rent the show from iTunes. Nope, only in the US. How about Amazon Prime? Nope. US only. In the end, I pirated it from one of the private torrent trackers we have here. I was willing to pay and watch it legally. But aside from ordering the blu-ray discs, I had no choice. Wanna keep piracy alive? This is how you do it. I do understand why these services are not _yet_ available in Europe. It doesn't make it less annoying though.
- durability 8y agoI get Amazon Prime Video in Holland.
- photonios 8y agoLucky you! I am from the Netherlands, but not presently living there. Maybe I should sign up with my Dutch credit card and put my parents address. Thanks for the tip!
- AnssiH 8y agoAmazon Prime Video is a worldwide service: https://www.primevideo.com https://www.primevideo.com Content varies by region, though, of course. And naturally nowhere do they tell you need to use primevideo.com instead of amazon.com as an international customer.
- photonios 8y agoThanks for the heads up. I signed up for the 7 day free trial. There are some good shows. I guess I'll keep it for a few months so i can binge watch those shows. Very little sci-fi shows though.
- ycombass 8y agoI stay away of these NSA spiders much as possible
- jammygit 8y ago“Goldman Sachs will never sell your data to third parties for marketing and advertising.” What if we wanted a more general promise to not sell our data at all? Or to not use it for anything at all except for processing transactions? The loophole is so big one could drive a truck through it
- fancyfish 8y agoExactly, will they sell this data to hedge funds? Research analysts?
- codazoda 8y agoI wonder how this is reconciled. "Apple also says that it’ll use machine learning and Apple Maps to label stores that you use in the app, and use that data to track purchases across categories like “food and drink” or “shopping.”" "Like many of Apple’s products, privacy is a big push here. “Apple doesn’t know what you bought, where you bought it, and how much you paid for it,” said Jennifer Bailey, VP of Apple Pay. All of the spending tracking and other information is stored directly on the device, not Apple’s servers. The company also promises that “Goldman Sachs will never sell your data to third parties for marketing and advertising.”"
- gcb0 8y agothey don't know what YOU bougth. But be sure they know what YOUR ANONIMIZED AD ID bought. It's obviously not a good idea to have a credit card from a company thay make up to 20% of their profits from advertising. But somehow because they called it X-pay instead of X-credit card, everyone ignored comon sense. /shrug
- wklauss 8y agoMost of that will be done on device. Data that needs to be synced up across devices will do so on users iCloud account (to which supposedly Apple has no access to).
- aeontech 8y agoIsn't that in the very quote? "All of the spending tracking and other information is stored directly on the device, not Apple’s servers." Apple Maps 'significant locations' feature and similar are also on-device only - Apple does not know where your home or work is – your phone does, but that data never leaves it. MasterCard obviously knows what you purchase and where, as they are the ones processing the transaction, but that data transits Apple's servers in encrypted form, which Apple is unable to read by design, I expect.
- afturner 8y agoThey were very careful to leave themselves and Mastercard out of that slide. This was not the case for the previous time they mentioned privacy, where they included themselves.
- czbond 8y agoI laughed only when I read the last sentence "The company also promises that “Goldman Sachs will never sell your data to third parties for marketing and advertising.” Never trust Goldman when a profit is already built in.
- timdellinger 8y agoAren't these recognized as "weasel words" nowadays? We won't sell your data, but maybe we'll sell a summary of your data, or maybe we'll use the data to put you in a category, and sell a list of members of the category, or...
- zencash 8y agoI'm guessing the 'virtual' aspect of this card will be activated relatively soon - before the physical delivery of the new sleek metal card. Small businesses are the ones who still get bitten by fees, not just on payment processor level but on the physical machines themselves, the fees are still pretty high with some of the larger players locking companies into longer contracts too. [1] This needs to change. There seems to be a lot of consolidation playing out too with the likes of WorldPay (who are the largest payment processor here in the UK) getting acquired [2]. [1] https://merchantcards.co.uk/providers/ https://merchantcards.co.uk/providers/ [2] https://www.finextra.com/pressarticle/72211/vantiv-closes-worldpay-acquisition https://www.finextra.com/pressarticle/72211/vantiv-closes-wo... [1]
- mariojv 8y agoI wonder if the extra cash back for Apple Pay will help spread the adoption of contactless payment. I imagine consumers might shop more at places that take it for the extra cash, and more vendors may start accepting contactless to lure those customers. I guess this depends on how many people end up using the card.
- csbowe 8y ago> There will be a physical titanium card, too, but there’s no credit card number, CVV, expiration date, or signature. All of that authorization information is stored directly in the Apple Wallet app. Does this mean that the card doesn't contain sensitive information in the chip or mag stripe? Will only work if it's near your phone? If so, this is quite different from status quo, and touches on what the Coin card failed to do.
- wmf 8y agoIt's likely just a regular card and the stripe will be clonable. Saying there's "no number" sounds like a gimmick that has nothing to do with real risks.
- downandout 8y agoIt's bad that the card doesn't have a printed number on it. Many merchant systems require merchants to type in the last 4 printed digits on the card for transactions over a certain amount. Some hotels require it, no matter what the amount. These transactions won't go through with Apple Card.
- S-E-P 8y agoWhat a shock
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- thegayngler 8y agoIs it a secured card? How do they determine the credit card limit?
- williesleg 8y agoInteresting, Apple is turning into General Electric.
- m3at 8y agoThis blog post [1] from 2016 seems prescient, linking Apple's stance on privacy with it's hypothesized desire to become a bank. It was a good read, hence why it jumped back to mind 3 years later. Key point: "Here's my theory: Apple see their long term future as including a global secure payments infrastructure that takes over the role of Visa and Mastercard's networks—and ultimately of spawning a retail banking subsidiary to provide financial services directly, backed by some of their cash stockpile. " --------- [1] http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2016/03/follow-the-money-apple-vs-the-.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2016/03/follow-t...
- daveheq 8y agoWell, if the banks won't do Apple Pay right, I guess Apple will have to do it themselves.
- kabacha 8y agoIsn't this is almost what Revolut is?
- nmstoker 8y agoWhat interests me is that they've clearly gone after the dark patterns of their opponents or their blatantly obvious unimplemented features (ie better use of mapping to categories behaviour or clear statements about not abusing the data they gather). This is a much more compelling sales pitch than "forget about these suspicious practices, everyone does that, but hey isn't this convenient!" which is so common now with the others.
- abalone 8y agoFor those of you concerned about the "antitrust" aspect here, the specter of Apple controlling everything... Keep in mind that Apple has had a partnership-based branded credit card for years: the Barclaycard Visa with Apple Rewards. There is nothing fundamentally new in Apple offering a credit card. What's new here is they're tightly integrating it with Apple Wallet and in some aspects driving a better deal (like eliminating fees and points and data brokering). Overall I would characterize their offering as a "competitive" rewards card. But what's really distinctive here is the elegant Apple-designed UI around managing your spending and interest charges and rewards, which looks exceptional. The other really clever thing is how they've leveraged the iPhone to improve the security of the backwards-compatible physical card. For non-ApplePay e-commerce they can rotate the CSC/CVV number you look up on your phone (since it's not printed on the card). And they can just reach out to you through iOS with suspicious transaction notifications and strongly re-authenticate you, instead of relying on antiquated robocalls. One question I have is whether the card will have a stripe on it or just a chip. Traditionally merchants would be liable for fraudulent swipes without properly-checked signatures. If the signatureless card supports swipes, presumably Goldman Sachs would need to take on that liability now. Maybe that explains why rewards are 1% on physical card transactions instead of 2%.
- atonse 8y agoIt does have a stripe. In the video you see the (very tastefully done) stripe on the top on the back.
- abalone 8y agoOk thanks, and to follow up I forgot that liability for swipes shifted to merchants a couple years ago regardless of signatures. That is, if a customer has a chip card and the merchant runs it as a swipe then they’re liable regardless of whether the signature matches. Having said that, that doesn’t mean every issuer is going to come after merchants for this fraud... it’s typically the little mom and pops that haven’t fully migrated to EMV chip terminals. So maybe the lower rewards gives Goldman Sachs more leeway to be nice.
- newman314 8y ago
- sasasassy 8y agoCommenting on the video of the event in 7 minutes: 1. Apple News was announced again? I think it was already released wasn't it? Still not interested though. No matter how much "AI" they use to make recommendations. 2. Being forced to have an iPhone to have a credit card that seems like any other card sounds like a terrible idea. Plus where I live we already have multiple apps and services that allows me to create an infinite amount of cards and transfer money with zero fees. 3. The single game subscription seems interesting, specially the part where they say they can also be played offline. I wonder how they do that. I don't play games anymore, still, interesting, wouldn't mind trying it. 4. tv.channels looks like other similar services, and they seem to imply you can only use their app on smart TVs and their devices, which is a big no-no. Still, if with good shows and price competitive...
- harsan 8y agoIn terms of just rewards, is this card competitive with current offerings? 3% on Apple products is great. However, I only buy a new product once every half, minus Apple TV subscription. The 2% cashback is only on purchases made through Apple Pay. I already carry the Citi Double Cash card, which does this.
- ianai 8y agoI just outright don’t want to do banking with Goldman Sachs.
- baby 8y agoIs this any better than Monzo/Revolut?
- tracker1 8y agoJust 30% on everything you buy.
- intopieces 8y agoNo mention of whether Apple+Goldman Sachs will take over the 0% financing currently handled by BarclayCard for new Apple products. That company’s implementation is antithetical to the values expressed by Apple at this announcement: they retroactively apply interest if you miss a payment or don’t pay off the balance before the promotional period ends; the promo period varies by the amount purchased and the dates only appear on a PDF of the statement; rewards are doled out only after accruing at a certain amount (expressed as points), etc
- ksec 8y ago686 Comments, 300 of those are Apple getting too much power and stepping into your payment. And Needs to break up Apple or Google or Amazon or whatever. Not sure why it matters as this is not Apple's first CC, they have had Barclaycard Visa with Apple Rewards as told in the 2nd Section Comment. 200 of those are Apple Card not having the best Rebate, as there are many other cards offering much higher rebate with no annual fees. I mean seriously, did anyone expect Apple to offer the best Rebate Card? No one is mentioning You are basically trading around 1% of your Spending discount for your privacy and Data. Along with better Financial Planning from your Data on Devices. 100 of those are about Visa / Master having duopoly and getting all the money. Well there are actually lots of other companies, transaction fees, cost and Interchange fees involves and Fraud Protection.
- pweezy 8y agoWhatever the potential additions for Apple's service revenue, this seems like it will be a highly effective weapon to add to the arsenal for customer retention. Switching to an Android phone at your next phone upgrade cycle will be a lot harder if it also means you need to switch your credit card. Plus, giving users a better rewards rate for using Apple Pay over the physical credit card will encourage them to build the habit of paying with their actual iPhone (and as a follow on effect, probably help encourage further Apple Pay adoption among merchants). Smart defensive move as device manufacturers face an ever more saturated market.
- grwthckrmstr 8y agoTo people complaining about Apple getting too big and whether they should be allowed to roll out such services. Look at MasterCard and Visa. Lol
- Raikan10 8y agoI wonder how they handle cash backs? It seems surreal to me that Apple is offering cashbacks on any transaction using its card.