14 ms·

I really don't get why all the charging networks in Europe require you to sign up, get a card, download an app, etc. It's ridiculous. My sister drives an electr

• pxndx 8y ago
  Because they can't harvest your information if you don't sign up for stuff.
  • VBprogrammer 8y ago
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. I would be completely unsurprised to find that other than having the data in some poorly secured database it isn't used for anything useful.
    • toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
      Never forget the corollary! “...But don’t dismiss malice.” Dismissing reasonable concerns about a nearly universal practice is best done through reasoned argument, not aphorism.
    • EnFinlay 8y ago
      To be pedantic, that's till harvesting your data, it's just not selling it. Does that make it malicious and stupid?
    • darkpuma 8y ago
      You should be aware that many malicious people feign incompetence when caught.
    • VBprogrammer 8y ago
      I'm really surprised this was down voted so much. I really don't think it's all that controversial. Like so many websites require registration when you are almost guaranteed never to return.
      • brewdad 8y ago
        I feel really bad for bobsmith@aol.com. He probably had to abandon that address years ago.
    • ouid 8y ago
      never attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by profit motive.
  • Forbo 8y ago
    Couldn't a card number be tokenized in some way so as to allow for tracking?
    • Znafon 8y ago
      I dont think so, this would probably go against PCI DSS.
      • leesalminen 8y ago
        I've seen several deterministic tokenizers for payment cards.
        • Znafon 8y ago
          Where there done by the payment processor like Artemis2 or in house? I'm asking because I saw a lot of in-house tokenizer with hashes or deterministic encryption that could get reversed in a few seconds by brute force since the space to cover is so small.
      • unethical_ban 8y ago
        The whole point of tokenizing is to get rid of PCI problems on CC analysis and testing, as I understand it.
        • Znafon 8y ago
          Is there credit card tokenization services from which you can get a token identifying permanently a card without the possibility to make a payment?
          • nothrabannosir 8y ago
            Yes, most PSPs do this. E.g. Stripe calls it a fingerprint. It's only valid for your merchant ID (i.e. if we both signed up for Stripe and swiped the same card, we'd get different fingerprints). https://stripe.com/docs/api/tokens/create_card https://stripe.com/docs/api/tokens/create_card (notice the request has no charge, but the response contains a fingerprint). To state the obvious: it's not determinstic outside of Stripe, and there's no way to revert it, or even iterate over all CC numbers and brute force the space. You'd need Stripe's secret, e.g. assuming they use HMAC.
• ec109685 8y ago
  Even the us is super cumbersome. They should just support ApplePay, Google Pay and a credit card and be done with it. Remembering the password for some finicky app just makes the quick fill up too much trouble. Even better would be if the car had secure handshake so once you’ve registered once for a network, you can just plug in and be done.
  • floatrock 8y ago
    Do the charger standards pass any data? Like could you plug in, the car identifies itself as whatever VIN (add whatever anti-tampering challenge-response you want to armchair-design), and the electrons just start flowing?
    • samcheng 8y ago
      That's how the Tesla chargers work. It also looks like CHAdeMO has a 'Plug and Charge' protocol defined: https://www.chademo.com/chademo-releases-the-latest-version-of-the-protocol-enabling-up-to-400kw/ https://www.chademo.com/chademo-releases-the-latest-version-... But that's pretty new, and not the SAE standard used in the US. So, it'll be a while...
  • tjohns 8y ago
    I know ChargePoint stations in the US accept standard tap-and-pay, so are compatible with Google/Apple Pay.
  • airstrike 8y ago
    > Even better would be if the car had secure handshake so once you’ve registered once for a network, you can just plug in and be done. I'm really surprised this isn't how it works... Surely if they can figure out autopilot they can make charging seamless. Wait... never mind.
    • sxates 8y ago
      This is how the Tesla superchargers work - authorization and billing is all in-car and takes place automatically, so all you do is plug in and it immediately begins charging. For other charging networks, however, it seems to be needlessly more complicated.
• deleted 8y ago
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• deleted 8y ago
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• arve0 8y ago
  Because of cost? 1. Cost per charge << per tank, and 2. cost credit car reader >> rfid reader.
  • Kurtz79 8y ago
    I would think that if you are setting up a charging station, buying half a dozen of commercial credit card readers would be cheaper than developing/testing/maintaining a specific payment app.
    • toomuchtodo 8y ago
      It's cheaper to develop the app that authorizes you to charge and deducts from a balance ($10, for example) than the credit card transaction fees that are unsustainable at charges between $0.50 and $10. This is no different than how tollways charge your credit card on file to replenish a balance, and then deduct from that balance (or even how Twilio does billing). TLDR Credit card fees are expensive, especially when your margins are thin and you are not yet at scale where you have pricing power to pressure processors to lower your CC fees.
      • itchyouch 8y ago
        For road trippers, maybe an extra $1 convenience charge for using a CC, while signing up for the app waives that charge would work. For those on a once in a while trip, they can eat the several dollars in convenience fees, while those that travel regularly can get their app of choice. It's also not fun to leave some dollars hostage on some app as a credit when you may use them months or years later.
        • toomuchtodo 8y ago
          These are great shims until billing is part of the vehicle-charger negotiation prior to charging starting.
      • deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
• devy 8y ago
  European's charging network infrastructure is probably more fragmented whereas in the U.S. there is only a few dominant ones: ChargePoint, EVgo and Tesla. Both can have iOS Passbook / Wallet integration so that you don't need a physical RFID card but rather a digital pass, pair with a NFC-capable phone, physical ID cards are eliminated. There are a lot of reason the charging infrastructure market is fragmented, mostly due to it's the early days of EV-lution where market consolidation hasn't fully played out yet. Also building charging stations is a capital-heavy business since it involves the land lease/purchase as well as construction/equipments (DC fast charging stations are very expensive, the higher the power the more expensive)/installation (permits etc)/maintenance. A friend of mine spent his own money to install a ChargePoint 50kw DCFC at his restaurant, it ended up costing an upward of $50k - at $2/kwh charging rate, he would barely break even in 3 years.
  • jackhack 8y ago
    >>he would barely break even in 3 years from the profit at the charger, agreed. However, it's safe to presume this charger was installed in order to attract more wealthy customers -- ones who likely bring higher food & beverage profit margins than the average Corolla diver.
    • nradov 8y ago
      I wouldn't be sure about that. Depending on incentives, a Nissan Leaf can be even cheaper than a Toyota Corolla.
      • devy 8y ago
        Yes - the EV incentive outlook have been changing quickly in Trump administration though. A lot of EV makers are undergoing phase out periods too, Tesla & GM and soon Nissan
    • devy 8y ago
      Yes and no. My friend told me that it didn't bring substantial business as he would have hoped for. But again, as a fellow EV enthusiast, installing a DCFC at his restaurant was his contribution to promote EV adoption rather than generating more revenue (nice to have). Obviously it would be a different story for different cases.
• stcredzero 8y ago
  I really don't get why all the charging networks in Europe require you to sign up, get a card, download an app, etc. It's ridiculous. 2019's "sign up, get a card, download an app" is like 1990's "Leave your name and contact information. Our sales people will contact you."
  • noer 8y ago
    >Leave your name and contact information. Our sales people will contact you. This happens far too often in 2019 as well.
    • magduf 8y ago
      It absolutely does, but the businesses that work that way are dinosaurs run by people with a 1970s mindset.
      • TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        Not necessarily. I recently purchased software to the tune of ~AUD$25k, where downloading and installing a trial version makes almost no sense given the target audience: laser cutter, where each model of machine from any specific manufacturer can have a slightly different dialect of G-Code, and this type of software is often way too complicated for the average operator to nut. So I sent a couple of emails and got swift responses and screen-sharing demos from both companies I contacted. The sorts of programs I can download a trial version of and have running in half an our or so are nowhere near as mature as the products we short listed. So I'm going to suggest it depends a lot on the target audience. When you're handing over multiple tens of thousands for a semi-bespoke software package management, in my experience, typically require interaction with a sales agent. This is in the context of physical industry, I can't speak for the software world, where perhaps spending multiple tends of thousands on online services is common? I have no idea.
      • Thriptic 8y ago
        It all depends on the product. Once you start getting into niche products which cost thousands or tens of thousands per year to use, the assumption is that the customer is a serious business with funding that has a known problem to solve. There will be a much smaller number of approaches than with a cheap consumer facing product and a conversion is worth a lot, so it makes sense to pair prospective customers with a domain specialist / sales person immediately to tailor the pitch to the specific candidate, modify the solution as necessary to fit the customer's needs, and make sure they are happy.
• jdietrich 8y ago
  Venture capital. Selling electricity for money is not exciting. It's a simple and relatively low-margin commodity transaction. It's not going to create a unicorn. Making the transaction more complicated and collecting a bunch of user data increases the bullshit surface area for your pitch deck. If you're vague enough about what your business model really is, you might just fool someone into thinking that you can make them a whole bunch of money.
• jaclaz 8y ago
  If I may go a step further, usually gas stations also accept "normal" cash, which is even more normal (and BTW leaving less electronic traces) than "normal debit and credit cards".
  • jakobegger 8y ago
    Yeah, it would be awesome if you could just put a few Euro coins in a slot next to an outlet and it would let you take a couple of kWh. But dealing with physical cash is a hassle, so I understand why companies would prefer cards. We have a bunch of unattended gas stations around here, and you can't pay with cash there either.
    • jaclaz 8y ago
      Sure, everyone understands why companies would prefer cards, as a matter of fact companies would actually prefer to charge you € 1,000 (say) on 1st Jan of every year, and then reimburse whatever you haven't used/bought on the 31st of December, but here we are talking of what the customers would prefer. At least here (Italy) it is unthinkable (yet) that a fuel station (attended or unattended) doesn't accept cash (besides Bancomat and debt/credit cards) (though all the petrol companies and the government is pushing for making everything digital, etc. like everywhere else).
    • CaptainZapp 8y ago
      Most self service petrol stations in Switzerland take card, as well as cash.
  • hrktb 8y ago
    I think it heavily depends on the gas station. For instance the cheapest chains (e.g. Total Access, Carrefour, Leclerc) often don't accept cash as there is most of the time no employee on premise, and they don't want to deal with vandalism. In general France is progressively going away from cash. Using a credit card for super small transactions like buying bread at the bakery were deemed almost anti-social a few years ago, but more and more bakeries start to prefer it for speedier contact less payment for instance.
• cfstras 8y ago
  credit/debit transactions are too expensive for these small transactions to be viable. many stores have a „no cards below 10€“ policy because of this.
  • miohtama 8y ago
    Not in Europe where card fees are capped http://www.eurolabour.org.uk/caps-on-credit-and-debit-card-fees-positive-impact-eu-uk-business http://www.eurolabour.org.uk/caps-on-credit-and-debit-card-f...
    • cfstras 8y ago
      there are neither references nor a timestamp on that article. at least in germany, where OP was trying to charge along the route, there is a minimum transaction fee charged by most payment providers.
      • miohtama 8y ago
        You are still allowed to ask a reasonable minimum fee, depending on the payment method. Is 10 EUR reasonable for refuel? (instead of refilling 2€ only) However price must be the same for all payment methods. If there is an administrative fee it also must be the same across payment methods, excluding business cards and Amex/Diners. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pricing-payments/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pri...
  • mcv 8y ago
    €10?! That is excessive. In the past, there have been shops that asked not to use a debit card for small transactions, but these days many shops welcome them, because handling cash is also expensive. (My favourite cheese shop is the lone exception: they only accept cash and nothing else. Luddites, but great and cheap cheese.) Credit cards are extremely rare in Europe, and only few places accept them at all, unless they're compatible with standard bank card transactions. Bank card transactions aren't that expensive and used for absolutely everything, including very small transactions. For recharging your car, there's really no problem at all to rely on standard bank cards.
• kokokokoko 8y ago
  Because capital investment funded companies have very different goals than a traditional business. A traditional business has cash flow as it's number one priority. A young capital investment based company has market share and growth as it's top priority. It's just a product of the priorities of how most modern businesses are created.
  • CydeWeys 8y ago
    They'd grow faster if the charging stations were easier to use and didn't require signing up days I'm advance just to charge your car. The company that fixes this poor experience and offers a simple credit/debit card payment option, like a standard gas pump, is going to win.
    • sokoloff 8y ago
      Didn’t ChargePoint already win, at least in the US?
  • PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    It's still hilarious to me that the great investors and moneymen of the world have all gotten together and decided that "step 1 collect users, step 3 profit" is the best business model.
• test6554 8y ago
  This is probably so that credit card fees can be avoided. An app can offer alternative ways to pay that don't incur a fee for the merchant. Also it's a new industry, so they likely want to collect data on where people with electric cars live so they know where the best location to build a charging station is.
  • na85 8y ago
    Yes, I'm sure it's that and not additional revenue from selling the data to advertisers or insurance companies.
• timthorn 8y ago
  At least in the UK, until quite recently most networks were subscription clubs rather than pay as you go. There was no incremental charge for filing up, just a £10/year membership charge. Now EVs have become more popular, the charging model is changing to a more sustainable system. The government is also working to enforce roaming between networks.
• stickfigure 8y ago
  Every gas station accepts normal debit and credit cards. On the other hand, skimmers and stolen cards are rampant at gas pumps. I'd be leery of deploying an unmanned roadside credit card reader. Maybe the extra vetting is an anti-fraud measure.
  • BronSteeDiam 8y ago
    What about all the vending machines that take credit cards?
    • londons_explore 8y ago
      All vending machines taking cards in Europe are NFC rather than magstripe, so aren't vulnerable to cloned cards.
      • mcv 8y ago
        Not true. Most I know use chipped cards. Magstripe is indeed dead because it's woefully outdated and insecure, but there's more than NFC.
  • ryanlol 8y ago
    This just isn't a thing in Europe.
    • mcv 8y ago
      Card skimmers most definitely exist. Many ATMs have a warning sign to check if the card slot has been tampered with. And the use of chips instead of the magnetic strips they used in the past makes cards impossible to copy. It's not a crippling problem, but that's largely because of such measures.
    • SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
      I'm not sure where you live, but it absolutely is a thing in my part of Europe (the UK).
• Tijdreiziger 8y ago
  It's quite sad that this comment (which is currently at the top) is full of misinformation. Yes, you need an RFID card (or keychain hanger), because these are low-margin transactions; transaction fees would make charging more expensive, and the fees to maintain card readers would mean that there would be much fewer charging points as they would be more expensive to install. No, you don't need an app. Some charge points allow you to use an app instead of a card, if you prefer that. But that's by no means required, you can always use a card instead. No, you don't need 5 cards. One card (plus a backup one in case of an outage) should be plenty, the exception being if you're going abroad (this depends on the roaming agreements your card provider has). Now, some cards offer cheap rates at some charge points, so by having multiple cards it's possible to save some money. But that's by no means required.
  • mcv 8y ago
    Transaction fees for European PIN transactions aren't that crippling, and the convenience of being able to actually recharge is easily worth a couple of cents. These required signups are just needless fragmentation of an already small market. What I don't get is why every gas station does not also have at least one charging point. They've got air for your tires, sometimes a car wash, and tons of other conveniences, but no electricity? Electricity should be the easiest thing in the world. The whole point is of course that eventually you can recharge wherever you park, but that means there must be more places to recharge than there are gas stations, not less. This situation is ridiculous.
    • Tsubasachan 8y ago
      To be fair electric cars are still very much in their infancy. We are talking about 2-3% of all cars on the road. I know Shell is actually starting to add electricity to their inventory in gas stations. But in urban Europe space is at a premium and the investments are huge.
  • krageon 8y ago
    The title here is "around Europe", which guarantees "abroad".
• pfranz 8y ago
  Wifi has been like that for like 15+ years and it seems way harder to sign up to one of those. It effectively means I'll never use it.
  • londons_explore 8y ago
    If someone made a WiFi protocol which allowed me to "autoconnect and use WiFi whenever the price per GB was under $2", I'd make a lot of use of it. As it is, connecting to "free WiFi" just isn't worth the hassle of clicking through T&C pages, and paid WiFi is even worse.
    • pfranz 8y ago
      It's bugged me that this whole song and dance of wifi portals; unencrypted wifi, dns spoofing, and sign in pages have been around for over a decade and none of the wifi revisions formalized this. It's been a kludgey cat-and-mouse where the OS checks captive.apple.com and gives you a modal pop up, some wifi networks let you send iMessages and gmail, but wont let you browse without paying. In then end you're still using unencrypted wifi. I've heard there is finally some future wifi spec formalizing open portals that negotiate to an encrypted connection. https://xkcd.com/1865/ https://xkcd.com/1865/