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Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport
- eganist 8y agoWas this incident recorded by any passers-by? It may sound as if I'm asking out of doubt, but rather, I'm asking to see if my hunch that CBP is equally as reckless and uncaring in front of a camera as e.g. other law enforcement agencies.
- Pawka 8y agoIt is not allowed to use phone/camera at the Customs area.
- dylan604 8y agoTo the point they don't even like you texting your travel companions inquiring about the delay. Because of these horror stories, I use my phone's ability to disable the TouchID reader forcing the 18 character pass code to be used when returning to the US. On entry of a foreign country, I shut it down completely.
- ashelmire 8y agoHas that been determined by the courts?
- gabrielmoshe 8y agoThis is certainly not the first article of its kind, and the legality of such action seems to be upheld in court (at least the use of search without a warrant at the border). So, the selfish question then is: How do I protect myself from such unwarranted searches? Is there a way I can present my phone such that it drops into a mode that contains no data? Do I need to back my phone up before traveling, wipe it for the border crossing, and then restore once I feel safe? It feels crazy to ask this question, as an American citizen, but HN, what do you do to protect your data at the American border?
- superkuh 8y agoDon't forget that the border zone extends 100 miles in from the actual border (including the great lakes). Most US people live their entire lives in the constitution free zone where this kind of violation is allowed.
- hawaiianbrah 8y ago“Most people” seems like a bit of a stretch...
- nickysielicki 8y agoIt's not. https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-100-mile-border-zone
- wolco 8y ago65.3 percent live within the border zone.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ilikepi 8y agoNot at all[0]. The continental coastline is an "external boundary". [0]: https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
- geggam 8y agoWhen you get technical about this 100 miles from every international airport is a border as well... How does that impact that map ?
- TomMarius 8y agoThere is no actual country border at any airport. It's an approximation that has its own rules and is not affected by the international treaty that sets these 100 miles.
- Maskawanian 8y agoNice job Americans. When will you people learn to treat your citizens with decency and stop this ridiculous behaviour. You should be protesting in your streets.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- dylan604 8y agoAt this point, only maybe, after the next revolution.
- danboarder 8y agoSuggestion: for international travel, when possible stow your powered off phone in checked baggage, and bring a non-important factory-reset phone or tablet for entertainment or to connect to the cloud if needed for work etc. If needed keep your work files in a hidden folder on an SD card in your camera... lots of annoying but increasingly necessary workarounds to deal with the growth of authoritarian states.
- yardstick 8y agoI would advise against putting any phone in your checked luggage. Too many dishonest baggage handlers and security screeners around.
- dylan604 8y agoAlso, lipo batteries are "discouraged" from being checked. edit: adding quotes to help signal the sarcasm
- ams6110 8y agos/discouraged/prohibited/ if I'm not mistaken.
- ilikepi 8y agoI thought this, too, but apparently a small device with an installed battery can be checked. Specifically, you can check a device with an installed battery of up to 100 watt hours. If the battery is loose, it has to be carried on. If is larger capacity, it might need special approval. [0]: https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/items/lithium-batteries-100-watt-hours-or-less-device https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/... [1]: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/hazmat/passenger_info/media/Airline_passengers_and_batteries.pdf https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/as... (PDF)
- flyinglizard 8y ago
- rjzzleep 8y agoHere's are the procedings [1] and the complaint [2] Say what you will about the US and the fact that you can get shot for looking at the wrong guy at the wrong time, but the mere fact that this happening and so easy to follow is quite interesting. In Germany you'd be laughed out of the room and I've had my fair share of racism to deal with from the authorities despite having grown up here. [1] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/8168712/haisam-elsharkawi-v-united-states-of-america/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/8168712/haisam-elsharka... [2] https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.727665/gov.uscourts.cacd.727665.1.0.pdf https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.727665...
- gammateam 8y agoSorry who would be laughed out of the room and for what? It wasnt clear to me from what you wrote Also I found it interesting that Germans perceive the US as overly litigious but I found an article that said Germany has more lawsuits (per capita? In absolute totals?), funny how perception takes a long time to catch up to various forms of reality
- jack9 8y ago> I found an article that said Germany has more lawsuits https://www.clements.com/sites/default/files/resources/The-Most-Litigious-Countries-in-the-World.pdf https://www.clements.com/sites/default/files/resources/The-M... was it this one?
- yread 8y agoThat original source is 20 years old. This is more recent paper https://ideas.repec.org/p/iuk/wpaper/2010-18.html https://ideas.repec.org/p/iuk/wpaper/2010-18.html which curiously says that US has 5806 lawsuits per 100k people compared to 3681 in the UK (second highest) and immediately adds that it's not special
- kevin_thibedeau 8y agoGerman law allows predatory lawyers to file lawsuits on behalf of another party without their involvement. That level of BS thankfully doesn't happen in the US.
- bruceb 8y agoThe problem with Customs and Border Protection is the attitude. They do have a challenging job. 99%+ of travelers are legit and doing nothing nefarious. They have to pick out the ones who are not legit/up to no good. I have no problem with them asking questions of myself or other travelers, even a lot of questions. The problem is the attitude and abusive nature of their conduct. I have had this experience a couple times and one time with my mother and I am a citizen. Plenty of other countries have customs/border agents that quiz you without attacking or belittling you.
- gnicholas 8y agoI think your last sentence should say “without”, not “with”.
- bruceb 8y agoyes, edited, thanks.
- bpchaps 8y agoAnecdote: About a year ago, I went through TSA and asked to opt out of the body scans in place of a pat down. Another agent on the side watched the whole thing and made kissing faces my way the whole time while making gay jokes. It was extremely belittling. Fuck TSA.
- ardy42 8y ago> Another agent on the side watched the whole thing and made kissing faces my way the whole time while making gay jokes. They need badge numbers and names prominently displayed on their uniforms, written in inch-high characters.
- dijit 8y agoAre you me? Had a really similar experience until I said that “this is the cheapest rub job I’ve ever gotten” and winked at him. He didn’t appreciate that. Tbh I seem to be making it my life’s work to be a little shit at airport security. I will _never_ use the millimetre scanner which seems to be a huge point of contentenion. And, while not TSA, the Gatwick airport security were trying very hard to convince me that I didn’t have a solid reason not to use this thing. Almost calling me silly or implying I’m stupid. On the same trip I tried flying with half a tub of hair créme (layrite) and, while I managed to fly in from Copenhagen with the tub, apparently Gatwick has different rules, so if the container has the potential of fitting more than 100ml it’s disallowed. Empty bottles are fine, but even a single drop of water makes it forbidden. It’s. Ludicrous.
- gammateam 8y agoSo did anybody call a lawyer like he asked? Reminds me of the movie Trading Places where Eddie Murphy asked for a lawyer and all of the aristocrats coughed and turned away My rehearsed line is “you in the <distinctive clothes> I’ll split the settlement with you if you record this and call a lawyer!” Gotta disrupt the bystander syndrome by calling out a particular person And provide the financial incentive
- dylan604 8y agoInteresting approach. How often has it worked?
- gammateam 8y agoPretty well since the private and public persons annoying me typically go back into their hiding hole with my uncommon way of talking Ive never made it to the nightly news with a video of me shouting that line Or on a talk show about the lawsuit for that recorder to get their share of a settlement So not sure why to tell you
- jeauxlb 8y agoHow would this even work? I google for local "immigration lawyers"(??) and tell the person who answers a man whose name I don't know yelled at me to call them, and that they get someone down to the airport? I'd like to think if I saw this happening I'd step in to help, but I don't feel like I would have enough compelling --- let alone actionable --- information for a lawyer to be interested enough to intervene.
- anoncoward111 8y agoHere's how I would handle it: In addition to calling several high profile agencies like ACLU and EFF, I would call one or two local lawyers and say, "Hi, my name is FirstLast, at 2:05 PM I was at LAX Terminal 2. A man wearing XYZ was being led away by CBP agents and was pleading for someone to call a lawyer. Is this something you can handle? I imagine you can get in contact with LAX authorities if you are interested in taking this case." I guess it's different at the federal level because they can detain people longer and with less cause, but eventually I believe they have to be offered the right to legal representation and being hauled in front of a judge publically. Unless of course the US Govt wants to extradite you from LAX to Guantanamo, at which point a lawyer is the least of your worries.
- raspasov 8y agoThose "unlock your phone at the border" stories have become so famous that anybody who's "up to no good" would be traveling with a decoy phone at this point.
- Traubenfuchs 8y agoRight? This is nothing but harassment.
- ezoe 8y agoI decided a long time ago that I will never travel to the US because I'm not white and cares about my privacy.
- paxys 8y agoWhich countries do you think satisfy this criteria?
- tremon 8y agoI could probably check all the privilege boxes you can think of and I still wouldn't travel to the US.
- writepub 8y agoThat's an absurd decision. The US has tens of millions of annual visitors, and given that the majority of the Earth isn't white, it's likely that a majority of the visitors aren't. While the stories that hit the press are negative (and hence newsworthy), millions travel in and out without incident. If you look at this statistically, you have a one in a million chance of having your phone searched at the border
- ezoe 8y agoThe fact you have no human rights within the boder and must follow every orders from police without requiring the court order or face violence, detention without arrest, declined to contact the lawyer, or simply be shot are enough to avoid such place.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago"Do as we say or you'll miss your flight" probably get 99.99% compliance. Most people have plans and "have nothing to hide," or so they think. Question: Why do they ask all these question about kids, schools, wife etc? Identity is established, the passport is legit because they can check it, WTH do they want?
- chipperyman573 8y agoThey ask those questions because they're questions that honest people should have no problem answering, but someone who is trying to hide something might make an unconscious facial expression or something. Basically they don't care about what your answer is, they are watching to see how you answer.
- ubersoldat2k7 8y agoIt's normal interrogation techniques. They ask normal stuff to see if you lie or you get nervous. Just watch any of those airport security shows on TV to see how many people who end up smuggling stuff fail to answer those simple questions or change their story several times during the interrogation process.
- onetimemanytime 8y agoI understand that...that's why they ask 100 times the same question in detective interviews. Truth is the same, but if you're lying you might refine it and eventually forget so you invent a new one. So it's not to prove that you're John Doe but to see if you have anything suspicious with you or if you're up to no good.
- 8bitsrule 8y agoDon't take your devices with you.
- brailsafe 8y agoI was searched at the border a few months ago on my way in via car from Vancouver to Washington. It did unfortunately appear to be the case that they had selected a significantly larger number of non-caucasion looking people for searches that followed mine (I'm caucasion), thought I hadn't noticed until my girlfriend pointed it out to me. However, while I was waiting for them to finish searching my car, I spoke with a caucasion fellow who happened to be Canadian with a German passport. Based on what he described, they decided that he must have been trying to work in the states without the right visa. They then proceeded to molest him and his personal privacy for 4+ hours. He tossed me a pamphlet that they gave him indicating that they had the full legal right to do so and he was more or less screwed. I proceeded to start deleting every avenue they'd have to view chat messages, emails, photos, anything, but there really was only so much I could do. Fortunately, it seems like they just wanted to try and intimidate me. The search seemed to be a formality. From what I hear, similar things happen on the way into Canadians to Canadians. It's a strange world we live in, and I wish all the good fortune in the world to those who try and fight it.
- jwmoz 8y agoI would hate to go to a place where they tried to force me to unlock my phone and surrender my privacy.
- grecy 8y agoThe "unlock your phone" part is obviously a problem, and the focus of HN's attention. What gets me is an Officer can say to your face "You are not under arrest" but then handcuff you, take you someplace against your will, and detain you there without access to a lawyer. How can that possibly be the conduct of Officers in a free country? I could even understand if the Officer just plainly said "we can not let you board this flight, you must leave the airport" or something similar. But handcuffs and detention even though you are not under arrest is insanity.
- ddalex 8y ago> handcuffs and detention even though you are not under arrest is insanity No, it's kidnapping. Let the courts deal with it.
- mchannon 8y agoSpeaking from experience, the courts are just fine with things like this. Law enforcement don’t have to record their interactions with you, and it’s their word (a respected public official) against yours (a suspected criminal). You may have heard of Mirandizing a suspect, but there’s an emerging phenomenon called Behelerizing. Tell the suspect they’re not under arrest (or claim you told them), even though you’re restraining them, and anything they say (or anything you claim they said) is ruled voluntary and admissible. 3rd world ain’t got nothing on Uncle Sam.
- wil421 8y agoIt’s called being detained. Means the officer has reason to suspect you of something but doesn’t have probable cause. You can see it on cop shows all the time when they arrive to a heated situation. Sometimes they handcuff everyone. How long was this guy detained? Props to him for filing a lawsuit I would’ve just caved to pressure and complained heavily.
- Lio 8y agoI believe it's now the same in New Zealand too sadly. https://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/pacific/nz-to-fine-travellers-who-refuse-to-hand-over-phone-passwords-at-border/news-story/cf28326c5976104e5d56066783032e44 https://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/pacific/nz-to-fi...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- torgian 8y agoGeez. This is terrible. This just makes me consider using a burner phone and imaging my own laptop before visiting the States after being in China for four years.
- qwerty456127 8y agoSearching through a phone/laptop is like searching through your mind itself, this should not be legal under any circumstances.
- ashelmire 8y agoThe border doctrine so clearly violates the Constitution, it’s absurd that we allow it to continue (especially when it’s applied to most of he population of the US due to the coasts). It has to go.
- throw2016 8y agoThe fact that border agents can search your personal effects is totalitarian, not unlike the stasi and other authoritarian regimes. The fact that this is 'normalized' in a democracy is astonishing. This case also highlights the massive gap between civilized rule of law and what actually happens in these interactions, the dehumanization and arbitrary intimidation is not compatible with a democratic civilized society, and this culture of enforcement and lack of accountability is akin to a police state.
- maze-le 8y ago> accountability is akin to a police state Not akin, the US is a police state. If you have ever been in a real police-state (Brazil, Israel, Cuba) you will immediately spot the similarities. And the US is not alone, just the most advanced state of a former democracy...
- wpdev_63 8y agoJust a reminder: anyone that is on the TLA's shitlist will have their phones combed through as soon as it hits american networks(possibly others). This is more or less a form of intimidation at the border.
- dmux 8y agoWhat's the protocol if the phone (or other electronic device) was provided to you by your employer? Wouldn't unlocking and handing over a "protected" device be against most company handbooks?
- ordinaryperson 8y agoTo me this kind of story should be on the front page of the NYT, not the fact that Netflix found out what my Candy Crush score was via my FB messages. Being physically detained by law enforcement and having your Constitutional rights denied seems way worse than FB data leaks, at least to me. And maybe I'm wrong but I can't help but wonder if race is a factor, that this and other stories like it would be bigger news if white U.S. citizens were the ones being subjected to this treatment.