9 ms·

Feds: Chinese spies orchestrated hack that stole aviation secrets

195 points by okket 8y ago

creaghpatr 8y ago
>Besides using spear phishing, watering holes, malware, and domain hijackings, prosecutors said, the defendants also recruited employees of some of the targeted companies to infect corporate networks and provide intelligence about investigations. This lines up with having a Chinese spy in California Senator Diane Feinstein's office: Being both a California Senator and a 'Gang of Eight' intelligence member, the Chinese could be alerted early on about potential investigations or indictments. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Sen-Feinstein-had-a-Chinese-connection-she-13121441.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Sen-... We've seen several indictments of Chinese nationals since this story broke. Edit: Actually the previous indictment I had in mind was the original arrest of the agent, this is just building on that case: http://www.atimes.com/article/chinese-agent-indicted-in-jet-engine-espionage-case/ http://www.atimes.com/article/chinese-agent-indicted-in-jet-...
- learc83 8y ago
  > This lines up with having a Chinese spy in California Senator Diane Feinstein's office That's not really an accurate description of what happened. Here's Feinstein's statement: "Five years ago the FBI informed me it had concerns that an administrative member of my California staff was potentially being sought out by the Chinese government to provide information. He was not a mole or a spy, but someone who a foreign intelligence service thought it could recruit. The FBI reviewed the matter, shared its concerns with me and the employee immediately left my office. He never had access to classified or sensitive information or legislative matters. The FBI never informed me of any compromise of national security information." Nothing in your article or any other reputable sources I've read conflict with that statement. From your article: '“He didn’t even know what was happening — that he was being recruited,” says our source. “He just thought it was some friend.” The FBI apparently concluded the driver hadn’t revealed anything of substance. “They interviewed him, and Dianne forced him to retire, and that was the end of it,” says our source.'
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    Confused, why is this downvoted? Is it wrong? Update: Funny, now the comment is upvoted and my question is downvoted :-)
    - learc83 8y ago
      The President, and some partisan media organizations were pushing a narrative that the mainstream media was covering up a conspiracy. I'm assuming the people down-voting believe the conspiracy theory. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/feinstein-chinese-spy/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/feinstein-chinese-spy/
      - qiqing 8y ago
        Why is a Snopes link being downvoted?
    - creaghpatr 8y ago
      Sort of, it's extremely misleading. It suggests that there is no evidence of espionage because charges were never pressed, but consider: >According to four former intelligence officials, in the 2000s, a staffer in Senator Dianne Feinstein’s San Francisco field office was reporting back to the MSS. While this person, who was a liaison to the local Chinese community, was fired, charges were never filed against him. (One former official reasoned this was because the staffer was providing political intelligence and not classified information—making prosecution far more difficult.) The suspected informant was “run” by officials based at China’s San Francisco Consulate, said another former intelligence official. The spy’s handler “probably got an award back in China” for his work, noted this former official, dryly. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/07/27/silicon-valley-spies-china-russia-219071 https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/07/27/silicon-v...
      - learc83 8y ago
        Here's the rest of what that article says about the topic. I'm not sure why it brings up the topic 2x in the same article. It looks like this paragraph is a revision of the first. "Former intelligence officials told me that Chinese intelligence once recruited a staff member at a California office of U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein, and the source reported back to China about local politics. (A spokesperson for Feinstein said the office doesn’t comment on personnel matters or investigations, but noted that no Feinstein staffer in California has ever had a security clearance.)" None of that contradicts what your first article said, that the staffer didn't know he was being recruited. He was talking about local politics to someone who worked for the Chinese government who was pumping him for information. The rest is just speculation on the part of someone the reporter talked to about how he could have theoretically committed a crime despite not being prosecuted.
- duxup 8y ago
  A friend of mine is volunteering for someone's campaign. He said as soon as it was semi public that he was involved his personal email lit up with fake emails. His email wasn't even listed anywhere in association with the campaign and he didn't use it for the campaign. Presumably they just guessed it (could have done that easily) or they found a list or something. So just getting involved, now you're personally involved all the way.
sneak 8y ago
Why is this sort of racism in headlines permitted simply because the event in question is sponsored by a government? Yes, I understand that the adjective used to describe actors in the PRC government and the adjective used to describe the ethnic group of 1bn+ that live under that government is the same; but perhaps they shouldn’t be for this very reason.
- grezql 8y ago
  I dont see any racism in headline?
  - TotempaaltJ 8y ago
    I suppose it's perpetuating the idea that a government is representative of all its people: the spies are from the people of China, as opposed to the government of the PRC.
    - Raphmedia 8y ago
      > A 21-page indictment filed in US District Court in the Southern District of California said the Jiangsu Province Ministry of State Security, an arm of the People’s Republic of China’s Ministry of State Security, directed the five-year campaign. How would you call the spies if not "Chinese"? They are the People’s Republic of China’s Ministry of State Security's spies.
      - eiaoa 8y ago
        > How would you call the spies if not "Chinese"? They are the People’s Republic of China’s Ministry of State Security's spies. CCP spies? Chinese Communist spies? Personally, I've been trying to correct my use of China/Chinese to "Communist Party" when talking about PRC government topics. I think that's more accurate since the PRC government dominates the Chinese people more than it represents them.
    - mulmen 8y ago
      I'm aware of the difference between the Chinese government and the people of China in the same way I can distinguish between the people of Russia and their government. Same for Germany, the US or any other country. This race card play is diversionary.
jerf 8y ago
When we were discussing the Bloomberg story, I replied a couple of times to people hypothesizing maybe it was an American government conspiracy to turn people against China. My reply is that we didn't need to make up such stories, because we've got plenty of much better sourced ones already. For those who were wondering, here's an example. It still isn't proof, of course, but I think we can generally agree it's almost certainly better sourced than the Bloomberg story, which is all I'm going for here.
- duxup 8y ago
  It wouldn't seem necessary to fabricate such elaborate stories because: 1. Most Americans aren't paying attention / don't respond to them. 2. We clearly have a situation where POTUS if he wanted could just make up a story and get people's attention. On the other hand stories like this would fit in nicely with state run / controlled media as the feed could simply be placed where you know it would get attention (if only because it is exists largely by itself).
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
jorblumesea 8y ago
As much as I think the tariffs are not the right solution, something needs to be done to punish Chinese aggression towards the West. They've been playing very dirty without any real consequences. Trade should not be conducted through industrial espionage or intelligence agencies as a standard approach. The blurred line between Chinese intelligence and Chinese businesses is a dangerous one as it can turn IP theft into a real escalation.
- nraynaud 8y ago
  Remember that the CIA did worse (like droning children in Yemen), be careful what you wish for.
  - jorblumesea 8y ago
    And China is literally exterminating the uighurs. Your point? Orthogonal to the issue at hand.
  - TheRealWatson 8y ago
    I thought the topic was world trade.
    - nraynaud 8y ago
      The topic is exposing spying operations in a bigger narrative of victimhood.
  - JPKab 8y ago
    Yes, and the American people are allowed to talk about that, protest it and discuss it without being imprisoned. The knee-jerk "whataboutism" in discussions like these does nothing to help. While I understand the desire by many to hold the US more accountable, combined with the instinctive "love the underdog, hate the champ" philosophy that shapes the narrative of the global left wing, keep in mind that China's current state-capitalist structure is, economically, much more similar to Nazi Germany than to any Socialist or Communist state of the past.
justicezyx 8y ago
As an ethical Chinese myself, I'd like to reiterate that this type event is government-backed. And I am confident that HNers respect the boundary between Chinese people and the government. I do want to point out that general Chinese people in mainland China view these type of activities negatively as well. It should not be thought as the general people endorse such activities, they were mostly made unaware of these, as always.
- PakG1 8y ago
  As a foreigner living in China, I can say that the populace is like many other countries. You have your normal people who don't really keep track of what's going on, you have your informed people who have informed opinions and realize that the world is a complicated place, and then you have your crazies who are filled with distrust of other nations and conspiracy theories in the name of nationalism and patriotism. There are some people who view these activities as negative, and there are some people who view these activities as positive, and there are some people who never even think about it. We must acknowledge there are many in China who do endorse these activities too, just as there are people in the US who feel bombing North Korea is the right thing to do. There is no need to make things look nicer than they are, just as there is no need to make things look worse than they are. And ironically, let's face it, every country is doing something in the spy game, China is not alone in using underhanded methods to steal secrets and intelligence. And each country can easily spout their justifications too.
  - mulmen 8y ago
    I'm not sure what your point is in your last two sentences. Should the US not defend its interests against foreign powers?
    - thereare5lights 8y ago
      OP is saying that the US doesn't have the moral high ground and anyone spouting off about how badly China is acting is just being asinine since we do the exact same thing to everyone (and if we weren't then our intelligence agencies need to get off their asses and do it).
TACIXAT 8y ago
It is a really interesting shift from throwing spies out of the country to criminally indicting them. I wonder if we will see similar indictments brought against US agents in the future.
- nradov 8y ago
  Nothing has shifted. Spies without diplomatic immunity have always been criminally prosecuted. Often they're held in prison for a while, then quietly repatriated in return for one of our spies or some other political concession.
  - zip1234 8y ago
    China doesn't do that: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-found-cia-spies-leak-2018-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-found-cia-spies-le...
    - everybodyknows 8y ago
      Those spies were apparently Chinese nationals, so Beijing would have considered them traitors. In the West that draws a long prison sentence. China and Russia are less gentle.
cat199 8y ago
sneaky russians up to trouble again, obviously
api_or_ipa 8y ago
I love reading about the Chinese efforts in developing a modern turbofan engine. For whatever reason, they just can't build a good medium- or high- bypass turbofan in-house. They're latest WS-20 is basically a clone of the CFM-56 and previously they spent decades developing the WS-6 and WS-10 that never met expectations. This is a big deal because the Comac 919 is ready to go but without a powerplant, they're having to turn to Western sources for an engine. The same thing happened with the J-10 project a decade ago and again recently with the J-20. Without a reliable powerplant, you can't build good airplanes and you can't easily reverse engineer a precision turbofan.
- eternalban 8y ago
  The Soviets also couldn't crack the jet engine but the English helpfully provided a Rolls-Royce engine for the Mig-15 just in time for the Korean War. "What fool will sell us his secrets?", asked Uncle Joe Stalin. "I will", said Sir Richard Stafford Cripps, CH, FRS.
  - romwell 8y ago
    I wouldn't brand this decision as foolish. In the rapidly shifting balance of scales, perhaps someone on the island didn't want a former colony to have everything. Or perhaps not; either way, there could have been good reasons - see discussion here[1] [1]https://www.quora.com/In-the-beginning-of-the-Cold-war-why-did-Great-Britain-sell-jet-engines-to-USSR-and-make-it-a-lot-easier-for-soviets-to-create-acceptable-jets https://www.quora.com/In-the-beginning-of-the-Cold-war-why-d...
- dllu 8y ago
  China also couldn't make a ballpoint pen until last year [1]. I imagine making a modern jet engine is somewhat more challenging than making a ballpoint pen (both endeavours involve making high precision metal parts). [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/18/finally-china-manufactures-a-ballpoint-pen-all-by-itself/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/18...
  - 8y ago
tareqak 8y ago
I have a serious question: why don't governments impose sanctions on other governments that hack them when there is sufficient proof?
- lechiffre10 8y ago
  Most likely because they all do it
- dclowd9901 8y ago
  You don’t think some part of the tariffs is because of this?
  - phyller 8y ago
    It is, I have no idea why you have been downvoted
- moltar 8y ago
  Because that would be hypocritical. Most likely all large governments try to hack other governments.
  - gilrain 8y ago
    Exactly, and, as we all know, hypocritical crimes are treated very seriously by very toothful U.N.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- forapurpose 8y ago
  Here's a few ways of thinking about it: 1. Escalation, the instinctive response of angry humans, is generally a bad idea in international relations (or any relations). I once read a veteran practitioner express it this way: 'The job of international relations is to prevent a B-level problem from becoming an A-level one'. The U.S. and China, for example, have a very large number of interactions on an enormous number of issues; if someone retaliated every time they were unhappy - and then of course the other side would re-retaliate - that would be all that was happening, lots of treasure would be wasted, war would be risked, and positive things wouldn't get done. That doesn't mean that you do nothing, but you need to respond in a way that doesn't escalate the situation - it's not always easy to thread that needle, but that's what the professionals are there for. Another reason retaliation is bad is that it puts the other side in control of your actions - they can provoke you into doing what suits them, when it suits them. You want to act at the time and place and using the means that best suits you, not dance to their tune. 2. The U.S. does take action against them, but not in public. This helps prevent escalation - the Chinese government isn't publicly challenged and forced to respond. 3. Espionage is, in one sense, like a state of war. The U.S. is already doing all they can to shut down Chinese espionage and to spy on China, and vice versa. China isn't breaking any rules in the context of espionage (AFAIK), and if the U.S. could do more, they'd already be doing it.
exnorrtel 8y ago
I used to work at Nortel Networks along with 130,000 other people. Nortel went bankrupt and now everyone who used to work there is fighting for their pensions. Apparently a major contributor to their downfall was all of the IP being stolen and sensitive information about deals going down otherwise exfiltrated by Huawei[1] People need to get serious about protecting the privacy of their communications and data. Nobody cares until it is too late. Seems like this kind of event might be the incentive people need to make the extra effort to use products that encrypt their data in rest and in motion. 1: https://www.afr.com/technology/web/security/how-chinese-hack.. https://www.afr.com/technology/web/security/how-chinese-hack.... I made this comment earlier on a story about China POPs in Canada and USA nefariously re-routing traffic through China Telecom networks but that story was marked as a dupe by the time I made my comment so no discussion ensued.
- kodablah 8y ago
  > Apparently a major contributor to their downfall was all of the IP being stolen If a company is heavily dependent upon existing IP then having it all stolen will be a major contributor to their downfall. But so is that dependence. Hard to make suggestions without appearing to victim blame, but companies need to be able to survive even without secrets.
  - exnorrtel 8y ago
    I didn't want to pin the downfall of Nortel completely on the IP being stolen and being outmanoeuvred in deals. During the dot-com bust they also lost a bunch of money selling carriers equipment on credit and that is when the tough times and inability of the executives to right the ship began.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    Why? If you follow that standard, you are basically saying that no R&D should ever be done, because you may just get it stolen and lose any kind of benefit you would derive from doing the R&D in the first place.
mo3gut 8y ago
If the "spies" really did "steal" (i.e. copy) an engine design then it seems like a good thing for the world in general. They have helped spread useful knowledge. Sure, it's bad for the would-be rent-seekers whose plans have been threatened. Why should anyone else care about them? Thanks China, and keep up the good work!
- phyller 8y ago
  By "rent-seekers" you mean organizations that have spent billions of dollars to research and prove the tech? As the current top comment represents, if company A spends billions of dollars creating a technology, then company B steals it, company B can sell it for less because they don't have to pay the R&D overhead. Company A falters or dies. The company that actually knew how to advance the field and create new tech suffered. Is that good for the world? The way it is supposed to work is, company A researches a tech, company b also researches a tech, the best one wins (or more likely they split the market), the competition induces more advances, and eventually the old tech becomes cheap (or free) and widely available as it is supplanted by even newer, better tech. And yea I know our patent system is broken, etc. But I don't understand how you can have a general principle that the people who created something don't have the right to benefit off of it.
codedokode 8y ago
> ....a hacking group calling itself the Syrian Electronic Army hacked an Australian domain registrar > In early December 2013, prosecutors said, members of the conspiracy used the same tactic to hack the Australian registrar again, this time to hijack domain names of one of the targeted technology companies. What's with that registrar, don't they learn from their own mistakes?
- Haydos585x2 8y ago
  It's Melbourne IT. A terrible company that somehow still gets large contracts despite ripping clients off at every step. I'm sure their entire staff is underpaid 457s.
  - plugger 8y ago
    I used to be an underpaid 457 for nearly a decade until I got PR. Just because someone is an immigrant on a work visa doesn't mean they're incompetent. And organisational culture is a top down process, not a bottom up one. So blaming the workers seems misplaced when it is most likely a management issue (who probably aren't 457 holders). That would probably be more accurate.
jmartrican 8y ago
I hear in the news stories about companies being highjacked by hackers, where the hackers encrypt said companies' data and demand a ransom. If that is possible, then wouldn't it be possible for US backed hackers to do the same to the Chinese backed organizations that stole American IP? It seems ineffective to just publicly indict Chinese hackers that are in China. The indictments are public, so the likelihood that said hackers come to the US are nill. Seems more effective to erase the trade secrets, or any other data, from these organizations.
- phyller 8y ago
  That would raise a variety of other serious issues. Besides the ethical problem that just because someone else does something bad, doesn't make it ok for you to do that bad thing. I could list several important reasons why "hacking back" would be a bad idea, but I'll just stick to the pragmatic "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". We have a much larger surface area and much more to lose if we get into that kind of tit-for-tat. Instead, the US is building a case that China is an aggressor, and is responding in other ways that will apply more pressure. For example, tariffs on Chinese exports.
thrower123 8y ago
Turnabout is fair game, to some extent. Look at the history of European porcelain, or tea. There's a fascinating documentary on CuriosityStream about Robert Fortune, who essentially committed industrial espionage for the East India Company and obtained samples and processes to kickstart tea production outside of China. https://curiositystream.com/video/1746/tea-war-the-adventures-of-robert-fortune https://curiositystream.com/video/1746/tea-war-the-adventure...

195 points by okket 8y ago

>Besides using spear phishing, watering holes, malware, and domain hijackings, prosecutors said, the defendants also recruited employees of some of the targeted companies to infect corporate networks and provide intelligence about investigations. This lines up with having a Chinese spy in California Senator Diane Feinstein's office: Being both a California Senator and a 'Gang of Eight' intelligence member, the Chinese could be alerted early on about potential investigations or indictments. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Sen-Feinstein-had-a-Chinese-connection-she-13121441.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Sen-... We've seen several indictments of Chinese nationals since this story broke. Edit: Actually the previous indictment I had in mind was the original arrest of the agent, this is just building on that case: http://www.atimes.com/article/chinese-agent-indicted-in-jet-engine-espionage-case/ http://www.atimes.com/article/chinese-agent-indicted-in-jet-...

learc83 8y ago
> This lines up with having a Chinese spy in California Senator Diane Feinstein's office That's not really an accurate description of what happened. Here's Feinstein's statement: "Five years ago the FBI informed me it had concerns that an administrative member of my California staff was potentially being sought out by the Chinese government to provide information. He was not a mole or a spy, but someone who a foreign intelligence service thought it could recruit. The FBI reviewed the matter, shared its concerns with me and the employee immediately left my office. He never had access to classified or sensitive information or legislative matters. The FBI never informed me of any compromise of national security information." Nothing in your article or any other reputable sources I've read conflict with that statement. From your article: '“He didn’t even know what was happening — that he was being recruited,” says our source. “He just thought it was some friend.” The FBI apparently concluded the driver hadn’t revealed anything of substance. “They interviewed him, and Dianne forced him to retire, and that was the end of it,” says our source.'
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  Confused, why is this downvoted? Is it wrong? Update: Funny, now the comment is upvoted and my question is downvoted :-)
  - learc83 8y ago
    The President, and some partisan media organizations were pushing a narrative that the mainstream media was covering up a conspiracy. I'm assuming the people down-voting believe the conspiracy theory. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/feinstein-chinese-spy/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/feinstein-chinese-spy/
    - qiqing 8y ago
      Why is a Snopes link being downvoted?
  - creaghpatr 8y ago
    Sort of, it's extremely misleading. It suggests that there is no evidence of espionage because charges were never pressed, but consider: >According to four former intelligence officials, in the 2000s, a staffer in Senator Dianne Feinstein’s San Francisco field office was reporting back to the MSS. While this person, who was a liaison to the local Chinese community, was fired, charges were never filed against him. (One former official reasoned this was because the staffer was providing political intelligence and not classified information—making prosecution far more difficult.) The suspected informant was “run” by officials based at China’s San Francisco Consulate, said another former intelligence official. The spy’s handler “probably got an award back in China” for his work, noted this former official, dryly. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/07/27/silicon-valley-spies-china-russia-219071 https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/07/27/silicon-v...
    - learc83 8y ago
      Here's the rest of what that article says about the topic. I'm not sure why it brings up the topic 2x in the same article. It looks like this paragraph is a revision of the first. "Former intelligence officials told me that Chinese intelligence once recruited a staff member at a California office of U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein, and the source reported back to China about local politics. (A spokesperson for Feinstein said the office doesn’t comment on personnel matters or investigations, but noted that no Feinstein staffer in California has ever had a security clearance.)" None of that contradicts what your first article said, that the staffer didn't know he was being recruited. He was talking about local politics to someone who worked for the Chinese government who was pumping him for information. The rest is just speculation on the part of someone the reporter talked to about how he could have theoretically committed a crime despite not being prosecuted.
duxup 8y ago
A friend of mine is volunteering for someone's campaign. He said as soon as it was semi public that he was involved his personal email lit up with fake emails. His email wasn't even listed anywhere in association with the campaign and he didn't use it for the campaign. Presumably they just guessed it (could have done that easily) or they found a list or something. So just getting involved, now you're personally involved all the way.

sneak 8y ago

Why is this sort of racism in headlines permitted simply because the event in question is sponsored by a government? Yes, I understand that the adjective used to describe actors in the PRC government and the adjective used to describe the ethnic group of 1bn+ that live under that government is the same; but perhaps they shouldn’t be for this very reason.

grezql 8y ago
I dont see any racism in headline?
- TotempaaltJ 8y ago
  I suppose it's perpetuating the idea that a government is representative of all its people: the spies are from the people of China, as opposed to the government of the PRC.
  - Raphmedia 8y ago
    > A 21-page indictment filed in US District Court in the Southern District of California said the Jiangsu Province Ministry of State Security, an arm of the People’s Republic of China’s Ministry of State Security, directed the five-year campaign. How would you call the spies if not "Chinese"? They are the People’s Republic of China’s Ministry of State Security's spies.
    - eiaoa 8y ago
      > How would you call the spies if not "Chinese"? They are the People’s Republic of China’s Ministry of State Security's spies. CCP spies? Chinese Communist spies? Personally, I've been trying to correct my use of China/Chinese to "Communist Party" when talking about PRC government topics. I think that's more accurate since the PRC government dominates the Chinese people more than it represents them.
  - mulmen 8y ago
    I'm aware of the difference between the Chinese government and the people of China in the same way I can distinguish between the people of Russia and their government. Same for Germany, the US or any other country. This race card play is diversionary.

jerf 8y ago

When we were discussing the Bloomberg story, I replied a couple of times to people hypothesizing maybe it was an American government conspiracy to turn people against China. My reply is that we didn't need to make up such stories, because we've got plenty of much better sourced ones already. For those who were wondering, here's an example. It still isn't proof, of course, but I think we can generally agree it's almost certainly better sourced than the Bloomberg story, which is all I'm going for here.

duxup 8y ago
It wouldn't seem necessary to fabricate such elaborate stories because: 1. Most Americans aren't paying attention / don't respond to them. 2. We clearly have a situation where POTUS if he wanted could just make up a story and get people's attention. On the other hand stories like this would fit in nicely with state run / controlled media as the feed could simply be placed where you know it would get attention (if only because it is exists largely by itself).
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

jorblumesea 8y ago

As much as I think the tariffs are not the right solution, something needs to be done to punish Chinese aggression towards the West. They've been playing very dirty without any real consequences. Trade should not be conducted through industrial espionage or intelligence agencies as a standard approach. The blurred line between Chinese intelligence and Chinese businesses is a dangerous one as it can turn IP theft into a real escalation.

nraynaud 8y ago
Remember that the CIA did worse (like droning children in Yemen), be careful what you wish for.
- jorblumesea 8y ago
  And China is literally exterminating the uighurs. Your point? Orthogonal to the issue at hand.
- TheRealWatson 8y ago
  I thought the topic was world trade.
  - nraynaud 8y ago
    The topic is exposing spying operations in a bigger narrative of victimhood.
- JPKab 8y ago
  Yes, and the American people are allowed to talk about that, protest it and discuss it without being imprisoned. The knee-jerk "whataboutism" in discussions like these does nothing to help. While I understand the desire by many to hold the US more accountable, combined with the instinctive "love the underdog, hate the champ" philosophy that shapes the narrative of the global left wing, keep in mind that China's current state-capitalist structure is, economically, much more similar to Nazi Germany than to any Socialist or Communist state of the past.

justicezyx 8y ago

As an ethical Chinese myself, I'd like to reiterate that this type event is government-backed. And I am confident that HNers respect the boundary between Chinese people and the government. I do want to point out that general Chinese people in mainland China view these type of activities negatively as well. It should not be thought as the general people endorse such activities, they were mostly made unaware of these, as always.

PakG1 8y ago
As a foreigner living in China, I can say that the populace is like many other countries. You have your normal people who don't really keep track of what's going on, you have your informed people who have informed opinions and realize that the world is a complicated place, and then you have your crazies who are filled with distrust of other nations and conspiracy theories in the name of nationalism and patriotism. There are some people who view these activities as negative, and there are some people who view these activities as positive, and there are some people who never even think about it. We must acknowledge there are many in China who do endorse these activities too, just as there are people in the US who feel bombing North Korea is the right thing to do. There is no need to make things look nicer than they are, just as there is no need to make things look worse than they are. And ironically, let's face it, every country is doing something in the spy game, China is not alone in using underhanded methods to steal secrets and intelligence. And each country can easily spout their justifications too.
- mulmen 8y ago
  I'm not sure what your point is in your last two sentences. Should the US not defend its interests against foreign powers?
  - thereare5lights 8y ago
    OP is saying that the US doesn't have the moral high ground and anyone spouting off about how badly China is acting is just being asinine since we do the exact same thing to everyone (and if we weren't then our intelligence agencies need to get off their asses and do it).

TACIXAT 8y ago

It is a really interesting shift from throwing spies out of the country to criminally indicting them. I wonder if we will see similar indictments brought against US agents in the future.

nradov 8y ago
Nothing has shifted. Spies without diplomatic immunity have always been criminally prosecuted. Often they're held in prison for a while, then quietly repatriated in return for one of our spies or some other political concession.
- zip1234 8y ago
  China doesn't do that: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-found-cia-spies-leak-2018-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-found-cia-spies-le...
  - everybodyknows 8y ago
    Those spies were apparently Chinese nationals, so Beijing would have considered them traitors. In the West that draws a long prison sentence. China and Russia are less gentle.

cat199 8y ago

sneaky russians up to trouble again, obviously

api_or_ipa 8y ago

I love reading about the Chinese efforts in developing a modern turbofan engine. For whatever reason, they just can't build a good medium- or high- bypass turbofan in-house. They're latest WS-20 is basically a clone of the CFM-56 and previously they spent decades developing the WS-6 and WS-10 that never met expectations. This is a big deal because the Comac 919 is ready to go but without a powerplant, they're having to turn to Western sources for an engine. The same thing happened with the J-10 project a decade ago and again recently with the J-20. Without a reliable powerplant, you can't build good airplanes and you can't easily reverse engineer a precision turbofan.

eternalban 8y ago
The Soviets also couldn't crack the jet engine but the English helpfully provided a Rolls-Royce engine for the Mig-15 just in time for the Korean War. "What fool will sell us his secrets?", asked Uncle Joe Stalin. "I will", said Sir Richard Stafford Cripps, CH, FRS.
- romwell 8y ago
  I wouldn't brand this decision as foolish. In the rapidly shifting balance of scales, perhaps someone on the island didn't want a former colony to have everything. Or perhaps not; either way, there could have been good reasons - see discussion here[1] [1]https://www.quora.com/In-the-beginning-of-the-Cold-war-why-did-Great-Britain-sell-jet-engines-to-USSR-and-make-it-a-lot-easier-for-soviets-to-create-acceptable-jets https://www.quora.com/In-the-beginning-of-the-Cold-war-why-d...
dllu 8y ago
China also couldn't make a ballpoint pen until last year [1]. I imagine making a modern jet engine is somewhat more challenging than making a ballpoint pen (both endeavours involve making high precision metal parts). [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/18/finally-china-manufactures-a-ballpoint-pen-all-by-itself/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/18...
- 8y ago

tareqak 8y ago

I have a serious question: why don't governments impose sanctions on other governments that hack them when there is sufficient proof?

lechiffre10 8y ago
Most likely because they all do it
dclowd9901 8y ago
You don’t think some part of the tariffs is because of this?
- phyller 8y ago
  It is, I have no idea why you have been downvoted
moltar 8y ago
Because that would be hypocritical. Most likely all large governments try to hack other governments.
- gilrain 8y ago
  Exactly, and, as we all know, hypocritical crimes are treated very seriously by very toothful U.N.
deleted 8y ago
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forapurpose 8y ago
Here's a few ways of thinking about it: 1. Escalation, the instinctive response of angry humans, is generally a bad idea in international relations (or any relations). I once read a veteran practitioner express it this way: 'The job of international relations is to prevent a B-level problem from becoming an A-level one'. The U.S. and China, for example, have a very large number of interactions on an enormous number of issues; if someone retaliated every time they were unhappy - and then of course the other side would re-retaliate - that would be all that was happening, lots of treasure would be wasted, war would be risked, and positive things wouldn't get done. That doesn't mean that you do nothing, but you need to respond in a way that doesn't escalate the situation - it's not always easy to thread that needle, but that's what the professionals are there for. Another reason retaliation is bad is that it puts the other side in control of your actions - they can provoke you into doing what suits them, when it suits them. You want to act at the time and place and using the means that best suits you, not dance to their tune. 2. The U.S. does take action against them, but not in public. This helps prevent escalation - the Chinese government isn't publicly challenged and forced to respond. 3. Espionage is, in one sense, like a state of war. The U.S. is already doing all they can to shut down Chinese espionage and to spy on China, and vice versa. China isn't breaking any rules in the context of espionage (AFAIK), and if the U.S. could do more, they'd already be doing it.

exnorrtel 8y ago

I used to work at Nortel Networks along with 130,000 other people. Nortel went bankrupt and now everyone who used to work there is fighting for their pensions. Apparently a major contributor to their downfall was all of the IP being stolen and sensitive information about deals going down otherwise exfiltrated by Huawei[1] People need to get serious about protecting the privacy of their communications and data. Nobody cares until it is too late. Seems like this kind of event might be the incentive people need to make the extra effort to use products that encrypt their data in rest and in motion. 1: https://www.afr.com/technology/web/security/how-chinese-hack.. https://www.afr.com/technology/web/security/how-chinese-hack.... I made this comment earlier on a story about China POPs in Canada and USA nefariously re-routing traffic through China Telecom networks but that story was marked as a dupe by the time I made my comment so no discussion ensued.

kodablah 8y ago
> Apparently a major contributor to their downfall was all of the IP being stolen If a company is heavily dependent upon existing IP then having it all stolen will be a major contributor to their downfall. But so is that dependence. Hard to make suggestions without appearing to victim blame, but companies need to be able to survive even without secrets.
- exnorrtel 8y ago
  I didn't want to pin the downfall of Nortel completely on the IP being stolen and being outmanoeuvred in deals. During the dot-com bust they also lost a bunch of money selling carriers equipment on credit and that is when the tough times and inability of the executives to right the ship began.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  Why? If you follow that standard, you are basically saying that no R&D should ever be done, because you may just get it stolen and lose any kind of benefit you would derive from doing the R&D in the first place.

mo3gut 8y ago

If the "spies" really did "steal" (i.e. copy) an engine design then it seems like a good thing for the world in general. They have helped spread useful knowledge. Sure, it's bad for the would-be rent-seekers whose plans have been threatened. Why should anyone else care about them? Thanks China, and keep up the good work!

phyller 8y ago
By "rent-seekers" you mean organizations that have spent billions of dollars to research and prove the tech? As the current top comment represents, if company A spends billions of dollars creating a technology, then company B steals it, company B can sell it for less because they don't have to pay the R&D overhead. Company A falters or dies. The company that actually knew how to advance the field and create new tech suffered. Is that good for the world? The way it is supposed to work is, company A researches a tech, company b also researches a tech, the best one wins (or more likely they split the market), the competition induces more advances, and eventually the old tech becomes cheap (or free) and widely available as it is supplanted by even newer, better tech. And yea I know our patent system is broken, etc. But I don't understand how you can have a general principle that the people who created something don't have the right to benefit off of it.

codedokode 8y ago

> ....a hacking group calling itself the Syrian Electronic Army hacked an Australian domain registrar > In early December 2013, prosecutors said, members of the conspiracy used the same tactic to hack the Australian registrar again, this time to hijack domain names of one of the targeted technology companies. What's with that registrar, don't they learn from their own mistakes?

Haydos585x2 8y ago
It's Melbourne IT. A terrible company that somehow still gets large contracts despite ripping clients off at every step. I'm sure their entire staff is underpaid 457s.
- plugger 8y ago
  I used to be an underpaid 457 for nearly a decade until I got PR. Just because someone is an immigrant on a work visa doesn't mean they're incompetent. And organisational culture is a top down process, not a bottom up one. So blaming the workers seems misplaced when it is most likely a management issue (who probably aren't 457 holders). That would probably be more accurate.

jmartrican 8y ago

I hear in the news stories about companies being highjacked by hackers, where the hackers encrypt said companies' data and demand a ransom. If that is possible, then wouldn't it be possible for US backed hackers to do the same to the Chinese backed organizations that stole American IP? It seems ineffective to just publicly indict Chinese hackers that are in China. The indictments are public, so the likelihood that said hackers come to the US are nill. Seems more effective to erase the trade secrets, or any other data, from these organizations.

phyller 8y ago
That would raise a variety of other serious issues. Besides the ethical problem that just because someone else does something bad, doesn't make it ok for you to do that bad thing. I could list several important reasons why "hacking back" would be a bad idea, but I'll just stick to the pragmatic "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". We have a much larger surface area and much more to lose if we get into that kind of tit-for-tat. Instead, the US is building a case that China is an aggressor, and is responding in other ways that will apply more pressure. For example, tariffs on Chinese exports.

thrower123 8y ago

Turnabout is fair game, to some extent. Look at the history of European porcelain, or tea. There's a fascinating documentary on CuriosityStream about Robert Fortune, who essentially committed industrial espionage for the East India Company and obtained samples and processes to kickstart tea production outside of China. https://curiositystream.com/video/1746/tea-war-the-adventures-of-robert-fortune https://curiositystream.com/video/1746/tea-war-the-adventure...