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So You Want to Open a Small Press Bookstore/Artist-Run Space? A Cautionary Tale

336 points by tarr11 8y ago

jakobegger 8y ago
All the successful small artist spaces that I know are different in two ways: - they are run by volunteers (no paid staff) - they have some sort of arrangement where they don't have to pay rent at market rate If you rent a space and hire someone to keep it open, you need a lot of money coming in...
- Asooka 8y ago
  Sounds like before you open an artist- (or hacker-) space, you should start a real estate business, preferably with other people who want to make small artist spaces.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
jaggederest 8y ago
The economics of hobby businesses, like bookstores and coffee shops and art galleries, are almost always such that you can either feed it the equivalent of a full time salary, or work there every hour it's open yourself, because the kind of business is one that other people want to do for free as a hobby. This means that, unless you want to be a slave to your own business, you'd better have $50k a year minimum passive income in a cheap town to "give" to the business, plus $100k-$500k to set up the space, plus enough money to live on for yourself, or it's not worth it. And forget about ever making a profit, even if you do work there every hour it's open.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  So how do coffee shops like Starbucks mange to support 20 working part time plus a corporate headquarters and make a profit, from the same small store you would operate as a hobby?
  - trowawee 8y ago
    Higher volume, faster turnover, economies of scale, predictable customer interaction schedules. All the things that make a local coffee shop or bookstore attractive, both to own and to patronize, directly conflict with those factors.
    - mtberatwork 8y ago
      > economies of scale Exactly this...which means Starbucks can then negotiate exclusive volume pricing from their provider/vendors anywhere in the product chain and force them to sell cheaper to Starbucks.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - winkelwagen 8y ago
    From what I understood is that not every Starbucks needs to be profitable. Some are insanely profitable, while others are just branding and marketing places that sell coffee. Of course there is a difference between not being profitable and bulking up insane losses each day, I think that is something Starbucks does well.
    - UncleEntity 8y ago
      I've always wondered about this, there are 15 Starbucks within a 2 mile radius of where I live (just looked on google maps) and for some reason they don't seem to cannibalize each others sales enough for them to not keep building new stores, at least 3 of them have gone up within the last year or so.
      - masonic 8y ago
        Even 17+ years ago, there were downtown intersections in both Seattle and Vancouver that had two Starbucks each on opposite corners.
    - itchyouch 8y ago
- roel_v 8y ago
  * like bookstores and coffee shops and art galleries* Also, martial arts schools.
  - probably_wrong 8y ago
    I taught martial arts for a couple years fully knowing I'd lose money in the process. How did I know that? Because my sensei had told us that he didn't make any money either. Neither does his sensei. I think at this point is almost a rite of passage - if you want to teach you do it because you like it, not because you expect to profit from it. Of course, the economics of your area also apply.
    - rjsw 8y ago
      Probably doesn't apply to martial arts as I'm guessing it isn't very expensive. A reason for getting into sports coaching is the same as for any other addiction, you reduce your own costs by becoming a pusher.
    - itchyouch 8y ago
      I dunno about that. I knew several tae kwon do folks back in the 90s charging around ~$300/mo subscription for twice a week class lessons. There would be 3-4 sessions m-f with 15-25 kids each session. I think the dojo was pretty financially healthy. Uniforms ran like $70-100, iirc. This was in central new jersey. These friends were financially, pretty comfortable. Now I have my inlaws teaching taekwondo in rural Michigan and that’s definitely not a profitable endeavor. More a labor of love.
rwmj 8y ago
Tim Harford covers this in one of his books - I think it was The Undercover Economist. Almost all the money you pay for an expensive coffee at a coffee shop goes to the landlord, and he explains the reasons why.
- closeparen 8y ago
  Almost all of what you’re paying for by going to a coffee shop is the diversion away from home / nice place to spend some time, so that makes sense.
l0b0 8y ago
A recent experience from a hackerspace showed me how incredibly thankless people can be. After working really insanely hard to build an inclusive space with loads of features, every little hobby revolutionary in the community just shits all over the work and proclaims the people actually getting stuff done should just stop and leave it to them. Even if I had the time, money and expertise I would never do something like that. These days you can't even ban assholes without everyone making like you're the one with a problem. And even a single person with a grudge can make you more problems than anyone can reasonably deal with while having a life.
- shriphani 8y ago
  gallery house in palo alto has an interesting model - membership comes with a volunteering requirement - it can't obviously reach the level of NY MOMA but it works well for Palo Alto and is a nice little gallery that has launched quite a few careers.
  - Hendrikto 8y ago
    > volunteering requirement Isn’t that an oxymoron?
    - maehwasu 8y ago
      Read as: "free work requirement"
      - jrochkind1 8y ago
        Not "free work" either. As payment for your membership, a work trade in return for the benefits of membership. Consumer cooperatives (which are actually legally _owned_ by their members, via member shares in the coop corporation) have been doing this forever. Like the famous (both loved and hated) Park Slope Food Coop [grocery store]. The Park Slope Coop simply calls it a "work requirement", and it is "2 hours and 45 minutes once every four weeks." The Park Slop coop is famous for crazy internal politics, so a work requirement is definitely no magic bullet against such. The Park Slope Coop is also loved by many though.
newnewpdro 8y ago
Interesting writeup, but the Ghost Ship is an extreme example of what goes wrong - you couldn't make a place more of a fire hazard if you tried.
- rwmj 8y ago
  The Wikipedia page is informative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_warehouse_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_warehouse_fire As you say you could hardly make a more hazardous environment if you tried. Wooden pallets for stairs?!
  - kakarot 8y ago
    That place was a matchbox waiting to get struck. And the electrical situation was a total mess... I mean that's why it burned down. How shitty of a landlord can you be that you wouldn't prioritize people's safety.
    - Tomte 8y ago
      Probably not shitty, just oblivious. A Hackerspace in Germany was proud of its smartphone-activated door lock. I was less impressed on their open house event when I saw firsthand how they struggled to open it for several minutes (with no mechanical override on the inside!), while dozens of guests were there. When I voiced my safety concerns they simply didn't seem to understand. I mean it's just a fun hack, right?
      - kakarot 8y ago
        No, actually just shitty. There were criminal charges. The two people mainly responsible got prison time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_warehouse_fire#Criminal_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_warehouse_fire#Cr... Also that's crazy about that smart door... Pretty sure that's against fire code if it's one of the only exits. Ignorance isn't an excuse when other people's lives are concerned, either.
keiferski 8y ago
I’ve always thought that a remote tech job/lifestyle business is perfect for opening an art gallery / niche bookstore. You don’t need to worry about paying the bills, you have a private office / desk, and realistically you won’t get more than a few visitors per hour, so you can focus on work.
- boyce 8y ago
  Tried to combine running a craft beer retailer with some remote programming work for a while. Struggled with it as customers always appear at the wrong moment and switching between brain modes was weird and didn't help me concentrate when there was peace later
- roel_v 8y ago
  Let's say 'a few' is 3. How can you get any work done when you have to stop every 20 mins (one someone else's schedule) and spend 3 mins making coffee & small talk? This sounds like people saying 'I won't have to pay for child care because I can work from home'. Uh, what? Either you're doing 'child care' or you're 'working from home', but you can't do both (for children < 5), and anyone who says they can, obviously has never done it.
  - keiferski 8y ago
    Most smaller art galleries get 5 visitors a day, tops. That industry revolves around openings, events, and networking, not people walking in off the street.
    - roel_v 8y ago
      Then why bother at all opening during the day? Surely not for the $5 in profit?
      - keiferski 8y ago
        Because the idea is to have your own art gallery and not simply to make money...?
rbrbr 8y ago
At halfway through the article it becomes clear that the writer has kids to take care of and his own job. That’s what should have been in the title to clarify the scope, and I would have saved the time reading this article. It’s obviously a much different challenge with those factors present. Without kinds and him/her taking care of the cafe instead it would have worked out likely. I mean think of it, people who have a full time job and children usually have little to no time for anything else.
- jl6 8y ago
  Full time job and two kids here, and ain’t that the truth.
mamborambo 8y ago
So much truth in this article. We closed down our hobby business, a dance studio, after 10 years of trying to make it work, and finally come to the realisation that we can do much more without the anchor weighing us down. The truth is a passion startup often defies rational analysis, almost like why people have children, it simply fills the part of them that fears regret.
- wayanon 8y ago
  Can you explain that last bit please about having children? Is it that some people are motivated to have kids to block out the opportunity to fail in their own projects?
  - praptak 8y ago
    It's not about personal projects. It's just the fear that you will regret not having children when you reach the age when it's no longer possible. It's a shitty kind of motivation btw.
    - wayanon 8y ago
      So did I get it the wrong way round, people have kids so they don’t risk failing in a business?
      - rpeden 8y ago
        No, praptak was saying that some people start a business because they fear that if they don't, they'll look back on their life and regret that they didn't start a business, and that this is similar to the way some people decide to have children just because they fear that they'd regret not having them.
        wayanon 8y ago
        Ah ok thanks!, interesting parallel.
        8y ago
vincentpants 8y ago
Could it have been that the author's business/community structure could have affected its outcome? I found having a more horizontal do-ocracy, membership-driven community model. I'm convinced that was essential to helping persist a few orgs that I've participated in cofounding. This CCC document [1] really drove that philosophy home for a few of us up here in Vancouver, BC. Highly recommend the read! That being said there is a lot of toxicity I've seen coming from other spaces. Noisebridge on Mission St. is the first to come to mind. That being said it's still around and kicking! [1] https://events.ccc.de/congress/2007/Fahrplan/attachments/1003_Building%20a%20Hacker%20Space.pdf https://events.ccc.de/congress/2007/Fahrplan/attachments/100...
- arkitaip 8y ago
  That CCC document deserves its own post!
CPLX 8y ago
This person created a startup business but kept their regular job and didn’t go to work there all day. That really almost never works, it doesn’t matter if it’s s booksstore or a car wash or a law firm. Bootstrapped new ventures are incredibly fragile, and generally need at least one passionate founder working on them full time.
hguhghuff 8y ago
True to a greater or lesser extent of all businesses that are about bringing someone’s passion into the world rather than making money. The arty passionate person five years later has an entirely new perspective on every single aspect of their venture. When someone asks me about starting a business, I say, “exactly why?”, “what is is you really want from this, do you know?”. You’d be surprised st how few people are really clear on what they actually want the outcomes to be in a tangible way. My advice is to create any business that makes money and do your passion as a hobby. There’s another thing.... people starting their first business generally don’t understand the importance of cash flow. They don’t want to know, they’ve got no reference point in their head to understand it. Nothing you can say will bring them to understand the importance of cash flow. In a years time there will be those who grasped it (might still be in business) anc those who didn’t (out of business).
raffael-vogler 8y ago
> And because you aren’t independently wealthy and/or don’t have a spouse who makes six figures, you’re probably going to be non-profit. I don't understand the logic behind this. Wouldn't not being independently wealthy rather imply attempting to be for-profit?
- mcguire 8y ago
  Artists spaces aren't well known for making a profit, and you cannot attract donations as a for-profit.
clarkevans 8y ago
The author talks about this as a charitable (501c3) vs for-profit endeavor. I don't see any talk about using a cooperative structure. Cooperatives don't need IRS approval, since they operate commercially; any profits (and there won't be) are distributed proportionally to the users of the facility via 1099-DIV. Then, you run a membership drive to raise money. The membership then is used to select the board. Anyway, there's lots of experience doing cooperatives for stores like this. It is not easy, but starting a business of any kind is not easy. If you can't do a membership drive that builds enough grass-roots support and community buy-in, then don't do a cooperative. Here are some additional resources: https://www.nasco.coop/ https://www.nasco.coop/ https://www.ncba.coop/ https://www.ncba.coop/ http://www.uwcc.wisc.edu/ http://www.uwcc.wisc.edu/
- someguydave 8y ago
  Wouldn’t the members each be legally liable for anything that goes wrong?
  - sdenton4 8y ago
    It's still a legal entity, just like any other private business. Liability should still be held by the company.
  - jrochkind1 8y ago
    It's a corporation. "limited liability" is part of the basic idea of a corporation, right? The _board_ will be individually liable for gross negligence or criminal malfeasance, same as any corporate board. The members are no more liable than shareholders in any other corporation, ie virtually none. (Beyond losing their equity completely, of course).
    - someguydave 8y ago
      I thought you were specifying a partnership, not an LLC.
- robotbikes 8y ago
xtiansimon 8y ago
(I love Poetry Magazine)
chiefalchemist 8y ago
I was the owner of a retail store from '90 to '00. The ecomm version overlapped from '97 to 2007. Given that experience, I read this thinking: This person(s) was massively underprepared, as well as underfunded. They also seemed to believe that all their options (in growing the biz) were too difficult. Marketing was rarely mentioned. I don't want to be negative but there are two life rules (not just biz) that apply here: - If it were easy, everyone would be doing it - Making it look easy is very very hard. Pardon me for stating the obvious ;)
- wiz21c 8y ago
  I'd say their only problem was : underfunded. All others problems becomes much more easy when you're funded (they say it in the article I think). (and that's why, imho, if you have nobody to give (yep, "give") you the amount of money you need, you'll never ever make it; that's a very unequal world...)
  - chiefalchemist 8y ago
    Yes. Ultimely, no funds === "failure." None the less, what I read was someone expecting the process to be easier than a traditional job. If you have less money then time + energy is your next best asset. Sucks. But that's the nature of the beast. I feel for this person(s). But they didn't do their homework. That is on them.
  - rossdavidh 8y ago
    Speaking of small businesses (I'm married to the founder of one), the number one downfall of small businesses is spending too much money early, when they don't know yet what actually pays back. Getting more funding early, tends to make this problem worse.
oikos 8y ago
Hi! I love this kind of spaces. This is how I would advise to do it. Art/literature - create high quality, high ROI product offering first. Hand bound collectables for example. Low cost digital counterparts. Find niche online first. Crowdfund, test. Have the publishing first. That's raising capital. Profit/Non-Profit no real difference if you have income. Just don't rely on grants and voluntary resources (economic volatility will hit these first). Physical space: make it enchanting (design/brand/service/experience). So that people would want to pop in regardless of products. High ROI food: coffee, tea, pastry, nibbles, smoothies and such. Food=energy. Sell local energy (economic volatility will hit this last). Innovate. Constantly change the furniture, accessories - sell them. Both online and at the physical space. Think of it as a curated space. Assess risks particular to the location/niche. Have contingency. Have another contingency for risks that are unknown. Anyone planning to open something like that - happy to give some more specific free advise (tangible products/interior- service design/branding/marketing/economics).
- projectileboy 8y ago
  I agree with everything you just said, but with respect, you are exactly the problem that the author was talking about. Lots of (probably great) ideas mean absolutely nothing until you’ve signed your name on a lease and put your own neck on the line. Until then, you’re just “the idea guy”.
  - oikos 8y ago
    Forget about the Ghost Ship tragedy. I'm offering more than ideas - what I've done successfully since '92 - developing products / services etc. for my clients. Point being here to avoid the pitfalls of cashflow issues beforehand and working yourself to death and not enjoying what you've started. And yes, once you have these problems it may be hard to convince anyone else to put their name behind it. Operationally there's something to be said stakeholders having "skin in the game". I like that Acequias idea.
mr_isomies 8y ago
I am sure that all of this is true but really there is almost no knowledge to be extracted from this bitter, passive aggressive, get-the-bottled-up-frustration-off-of-my-chest "tale" This is just a very pointed & personal rant. I mean, good on that guy to let it out, but that's a complete waste of turning actual experience into usable advices > While all this is happening, the bookstore runs out of money, but the employee doesn’t tell anyone for over a month. Instead, the employee tells all your friends that you’ve been exploiting them this whole time.
jancsika 8y ago
Why didn't you hire a grant writer?
olvo 8y ago
They go to some lengths to dance around the issue. If you can't pay for the space based on a sustainable amount of donations, or other recurring income, you aren't running a space you are running a business and a lot of businesses fail. There is at least half a century of complaints over gentrification to that point.
- coffeefirst 8y ago
  Right. The rent is the problem. You can find coffee shops/bookstores/wine bars/libraries that will provide or rent out space for these events and it's far less risky.
  - mcguire 8y ago
    I double-dog-dare you to find a library that will rent out space for that guy who is welding a 27 foot tall phallus.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      My librarians, a tremendous open-minded free-thinking group, might have a problem with the fire hazard but not the other part!
    - biztos 8y ago
      For Burning Man, I presume?
late2part 8y ago
https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman/ https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherma... "The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”"
coldtea 8y ago
>Then, a few months later, you wake up to the headline that 36 people died at Ghost Ship, an artist collective in Oakland, CA. When it’s all said and done, it won’t be the landlord, but the leaseholders, Derick Almena and Max Harris, who’ll be charged with manslaughter and face up to 39 years in prison. That's a big problem right there (all the bureaucracy that has creeped up for having a space or shop etc, a lot of it which didn't exist 30 and 50 years ago). If the place is inspected regularly, and is as it should be (e.g. have fire extinguishers, etc), NOBODY should be charged with anything unless they did something (like throw gasoline at the crowd). Shit happens. If adults burn in a building, it's a risk they should be willing to take when stepping it, the owner is not some nanny to prevent all natural and unnatural causes from ever becoming dangerous....
- twic 8y ago
  That is exactly how it works now. You don't get convicted of manslaughter because someone died in your shop, you get convicted because you were grossly negligent in preventing someone dying in your shop. If the place was inspected regularly, and was as it should be (fire extinguishers etc), then they won't be convicted. And typically, prosecutors won't charge them unless they are confident of a conviction.
  - mcguire 8y ago
    I would quote some of the scary parts from the wiki page, but there's just too much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_warehouse_fire?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_warehouse_fire?wp... As a rule, you don't kill 36 out of 50 people without putting some effort in.
- Symbiote 8y ago
  Rather than launching into an uninformed rant about bureaucracy, you should read the background to the Ghost Ship fire. The place hadn't been inspected for decades, and didn't have basics like a fire alarm, multiple staircases, or a suitable electricity supply. People who had warned the owner of problems had been ignored. > Shit happens. If adults burn in a building, it's a risk they should be willing to take Ridiculous — those adults aren't in a position to evaluate the risk. Are they supposed each to check the fire alarm works before entering, or just ask to see a certificate showing the building has been inspected recently? Can they do a flammability test on the staircase? And what about the 17 year old who died?
throwaway487548 8y ago
Every idealistic "business" based on assumptions and wishful thinking instead of demand will inevitably fail. Demand and demand only is what makes any business possible. One has to be an exceptional, way above average artist before making himself a brand. Actually, a branding follows being exceptional.
biztos 8y ago
These two bits of advice really spoke to me: > Consider being a for-profit. and > If you’re going to have a public space, try to find a cheap place you can buy and own. I have, for a few years now, really wanted to start an art gallery, or at least something similar to an art gallery. I've looked into the local equivalent of a nonprofit, and I've considered renting a super cheap space and keeping irregular hours and bla bla bla. But I keep coming back to the idea that I want to really be in charge, even though I think it'll never make any money; and renting a loss-leader lifestyle storefront is a great way to achieve untenable fragility and poof it disappears at your next personal downturn, taking a chunk of your net worth with it. I have no idea if I'll ever pull it off, but I'm increasingly attracted to the idea of forming an LTD and buying the cheapest space I can find... someday. Maybe in ten years. In the meantime I am considering trying to do a pop-up version, which might be a stupid idea but would certainly be a learning experience and not have any recurring costs. The pop-up idea is, I think, useful for any kind of creative thing that doesn't require much equipment.
- rkuykendall-com 8y ago
  What about offering to curate a local coffee shop or coworking space or something? There's got to be some place that would not mind free art in exchange for little labels or prices. I know this was very common in my home town. Plus, the relationship could be kept loose, since you aren't exchanging any money either way.
l00sed 8y ago
What if all the people in this thread just Kickstarterd something together?
bsenftner 8y ago
I was a founder and operator of the Los Angeles free co-working space DropLabs. We lasted for 3 years before closing out of lack of interest. We never intended anything other than a free place for geeks to collect and work. We had events in the evenings, which were fairly popular. Having multiple partners with graduate business degrees, we chose not to incorporate, we just rented a space and called it "Droplabs" (why invite the taxman?) However, our location was near downtown, and the 20-something geeks were both afraid of downtown and would rather pay $40-$60+ per day to have a chair in a WeWork space in Hollywood or Santa Monica. It did not make sense, so I tried spending a week at each of the more popular co-working spaces, and learned they were not occupied by geeks or "real" startup people, but wealthy 20-somethings playing a startup game, dating one another, and with zero serious intent other than wasting their parent's money. I learned to be a success as a co-working space, one needed to create a "dating safe play pit" for white wealthy 20-somethings. I have zero interest in that.
- zeure 8y ago
  Location is the most important thing in marketing a physical area.
  - bsenftner 8y ago
    We were located "next door" to The Brewery, the world largest freelance artist community (35K freelance artists living and working in a former brewery compound near downtown.) The artists used us far more than the geeks we were tying to attract.
    - fit2rule 8y ago
      That location is pretty famous for having the worlds largest concentration of artistic freeloaders. In fact, LA is a very difficult place to do these sorts of things - every 6 months a new wave of drop-outs hits the scene to become 'the next new up and coming thang' .. so its not really a surprise. If you want to run a successful hackrrspace in LA, you've got to find a way to make the hackers contribute to the effort. One of the best ways to do this is to have regular open-house events, promoting the contributing artists forward, and thus demoting those who freeload. Form a real community around those who contribute, and dissuade freeloaders. (Disclaimer: ran a hackrrspace in LA for 10 years, had a hell of a lot of fun, but also experienced immense frustration at just how some folks, who take so much space and creative energy, contribute nevertheless so little...)
xab9 8y ago
Heavens, I thought the fire was an allegory or a worst case scenario. Looking at the artsy enterior I feel an existential dread thinking about being trapped in that place with flames around.
pontifier 8y ago
If I knew then what I know now, would I ever have started a Makerspace? I've been running a small space for the last 4 years, and it's lost a lot of its magic for me. I used to have high hopes of inspiring others to create. It's very rarely like that. Many times it's cleaning up others messes, or fighting to grow with no resources. Once in a while though, someone's eyes light up when they see the possibilities in the waterjet or laser or 3D printer... Sometimes it's worth it. Most times it's not.

336 points by tarr11 8y ago

All the successful small artist spaces that I know are different in two ways: - they are run by volunteers (no paid staff) - they have some sort of arrangement where they don't have to pay rent at market rate If you rent a space and hire someone to keep it open, you need a lot of money coming in...

Asooka 8y ago
Sounds like before you open an artist- (or hacker-) space, you should start a real estate business, preferably with other people who want to make small artist spaces.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

jaggederest 8y ago

The economics of hobby businesses, like bookstores and coffee shops and art galleries, are almost always such that you can either feed it the equivalent of a full time salary, or work there every hour it's open yourself, because the kind of business is one that other people want to do for free as a hobby. This means that, unless you want to be a slave to your own business, you'd better have $50k a year minimum passive income in a cheap town to "give" to the business, plus $100k-$500k to set up the space, plus enough money to live on for yourself, or it's not worth it. And forget about ever making a profit, even if you do work there every hour it's open.

chrisseaton 8y ago
So how do coffee shops like Starbucks mange to support 20 working part time plus a corporate headquarters and make a profit, from the same small store you would operate as a hobby?
- trowawee 8y ago
  Higher volume, faster turnover, economies of scale, predictable customer interaction schedules. All the things that make a local coffee shop or bookstore attractive, both to own and to patronize, directly conflict with those factors.
  - mtberatwork 8y ago
    > economies of scale Exactly this...which means Starbucks can then negotiate exclusive volume pricing from their provider/vendors anywhere in the product chain and force them to sell cheaper to Starbucks.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- winkelwagen 8y ago
  From what I understood is that not every Starbucks needs to be profitable. Some are insanely profitable, while others are just branding and marketing places that sell coffee. Of course there is a difference between not being profitable and bulking up insane losses each day, I think that is something Starbucks does well.
  - UncleEntity 8y ago
    I've always wondered about this, there are 15 Starbucks within a 2 mile radius of where I live (just looked on google maps) and for some reason they don't seem to cannibalize each others sales enough for them to not keep building new stores, at least 3 of them have gone up within the last year or so.
    - masonic 8y ago
      Even 17+ years ago, there were downtown intersections in both Seattle and Vancouver that had two Starbucks each on opposite corners.
  - itchyouch 8y ago
roel_v 8y ago
* like bookstores and coffee shops and art galleries* Also, martial arts schools.
- probably_wrong 8y ago
  I taught martial arts for a couple years fully knowing I'd lose money in the process. How did I know that? Because my sensei had told us that he didn't make any money either. Neither does his sensei. I think at this point is almost a rite of passage - if you want to teach you do it because you like it, not because you expect to profit from it. Of course, the economics of your area also apply.
  - rjsw 8y ago
    Probably doesn't apply to martial arts as I'm guessing it isn't very expensive. A reason for getting into sports coaching is the same as for any other addiction, you reduce your own costs by becoming a pusher.
  - itchyouch 8y ago
    I dunno about that. I knew several tae kwon do folks back in the 90s charging around ~$300/mo subscription for twice a week class lessons. There would be 3-4 sessions m-f with 15-25 kids each session. I think the dojo was pretty financially healthy. Uniforms ran like $70-100, iirc. This was in central new jersey. These friends were financially, pretty comfortable. Now I have my inlaws teaching taekwondo in rural Michigan and that’s definitely not a profitable endeavor. More a labor of love.

rwmj 8y ago

Tim Harford covers this in one of his books - I think it was The Undercover Economist. Almost all the money you pay for an expensive coffee at a coffee shop goes to the landlord, and he explains the reasons why.

closeparen 8y ago
Almost all of what you’re paying for by going to a coffee shop is the diversion away from home / nice place to spend some time, so that makes sense.

l0b0 8y ago

A recent experience from a hackerspace showed me how incredibly thankless people can be. After working really insanely hard to build an inclusive space with loads of features, every little hobby revolutionary in the community just shits all over the work and proclaims the people actually getting stuff done should just stop and leave it to them. Even if I had the time, money and expertise I would never do something like that. These days you can't even ban assholes without everyone making like you're the one with a problem. And even a single person with a grudge can make you more problems than anyone can reasonably deal with while having a life.

shriphani 8y ago
gallery house in palo alto has an interesting model - membership comes with a volunteering requirement - it can't obviously reach the level of NY MOMA but it works well for Palo Alto and is a nice little gallery that has launched quite a few careers.
- Hendrikto 8y ago
  > volunteering requirement Isn’t that an oxymoron?
  - maehwasu 8y ago
    Read as: "free work requirement"
    - jrochkind1 8y ago
      Not "free work" either. As payment for your membership, a work trade in return for the benefits of membership. Consumer cooperatives (which are actually legally _owned_ by their members, via member shares in the coop corporation) have been doing this forever. Like the famous (both loved and hated) Park Slope Food Coop [grocery store]. The Park Slope Coop simply calls it a "work requirement", and it is "2 hours and 45 minutes once every four weeks." The Park Slop coop is famous for crazy internal politics, so a work requirement is definitely no magic bullet against such. The Park Slope Coop is also loved by many though.

newnewpdro 8y ago

Interesting writeup, but the Ghost Ship is an extreme example of what goes wrong - you couldn't make a place more of a fire hazard if you tried.

rwmj 8y ago
The Wikipedia page is informative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_warehouse_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_warehouse_fire As you say you could hardly make a more hazardous environment if you tried. Wooden pallets for stairs?!
- kakarot 8y ago
  That place was a matchbox waiting to get struck. And the electrical situation was a total mess... I mean that's why it burned down. How shitty of a landlord can you be that you wouldn't prioritize people's safety.
  - Tomte 8y ago
    Probably not shitty, just oblivious. A Hackerspace in Germany was proud of its smartphone-activated door lock. I was less impressed on their open house event when I saw firsthand how they struggled to open it for several minutes (with no mechanical override on the inside!), while dozens of guests were there. When I voiced my safety concerns they simply didn't seem to understand. I mean it's just a fun hack, right?
    - kakarot 8y ago
      No, actually just shitty. There were criminal charges. The two people mainly responsible got prison time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_warehouse_fire#Criminal_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_warehouse_fire#Cr... Also that's crazy about that smart door... Pretty sure that's against fire code if it's one of the only exits. Ignorance isn't an excuse when other people's lives are concerned, either.

keiferski 8y ago

I’ve always thought that a remote tech job/lifestyle business is perfect for opening an art gallery / niche bookstore. You don’t need to worry about paying the bills, you have a private office / desk, and realistically you won’t get more than a few visitors per hour, so you can focus on work.

boyce 8y ago
Tried to combine running a craft beer retailer with some remote programming work for a while. Struggled with it as customers always appear at the wrong moment and switching between brain modes was weird and didn't help me concentrate when there was peace later
roel_v 8y ago
Let's say 'a few' is 3. How can you get any work done when you have to stop every 20 mins (one someone else's schedule) and spend 3 mins making coffee & small talk? This sounds like people saying 'I won't have to pay for child care because I can work from home'. Uh, what? Either you're doing 'child care' or you're 'working from home', but you can't do both (for children < 5), and anyone who says they can, obviously has never done it.
- keiferski 8y ago
  Most smaller art galleries get 5 visitors a day, tops. That industry revolves around openings, events, and networking, not people walking in off the street.
  - roel_v 8y ago
    Then why bother at all opening during the day? Surely not for the $5 in profit?
    - keiferski 8y ago
      Because the idea is to have your own art gallery and not simply to make money...?

rbrbr 8y ago

At halfway through the article it becomes clear that the writer has kids to take care of and his own job. That’s what should have been in the title to clarify the scope, and I would have saved the time reading this article. It’s obviously a much different challenge with those factors present. Without kinds and him/her taking care of the cafe instead it would have worked out likely. I mean think of it, people who have a full time job and children usually have little to no time for anything else.

jl6 8y ago
Full time job and two kids here, and ain’t that the truth.

mamborambo 8y ago

So much truth in this article. We closed down our hobby business, a dance studio, after 10 years of trying to make it work, and finally come to the realisation that we can do much more without the anchor weighing us down. The truth is a passion startup often defies rational analysis, almost like why people have children, it simply fills the part of them that fears regret.

wayanon 8y ago
Can you explain that last bit please about having children? Is it that some people are motivated to have kids to block out the opportunity to fail in their own projects?
- praptak 8y ago
  It's not about personal projects. It's just the fear that you will regret not having children when you reach the age when it's no longer possible. It's a shitty kind of motivation btw.
  - wayanon 8y ago
    So did I get it the wrong way round, people have kids so they don’t risk failing in a business?
    - rpeden 8y ago
      No, praptak was saying that some people start a business because they fear that if they don't, they'll look back on their life and regret that they didn't start a business, and that this is similar to the way some people decide to have children just because they fear that they'd regret not having them.
      - wayanon 8y ago
        Ah ok thanks!, interesting parallel.
      - 8y ago

vincentpants 8y ago

Could it have been that the author's business/community structure could have affected its outcome? I found having a more horizontal do-ocracy, membership-driven community model. I'm convinced that was essential to helping persist a few orgs that I've participated in cofounding. This CCC document [1] really drove that philosophy home for a few of us up here in Vancouver, BC. Highly recommend the read! That being said there is a lot of toxicity I've seen coming from other spaces. Noisebridge on Mission St. is the first to come to mind. That being said it's still around and kicking! [1] https://events.ccc.de/congress/2007/Fahrplan/attachments/1003_Building%20a%20Hacker%20Space.pdf https://events.ccc.de/congress/2007/Fahrplan/attachments/100...

arkitaip 8y ago
That CCC document deserves its own post!

CPLX 8y ago

This person created a startup business but kept their regular job and didn’t go to work there all day. That really almost never works, it doesn’t matter if it’s s booksstore or a car wash or a law firm. Bootstrapped new ventures are incredibly fragile, and generally need at least one passionate founder working on them full time.

hguhghuff 8y ago

True to a greater or lesser extent of all businesses that are about bringing someone’s passion into the world rather than making money. The arty passionate person five years later has an entirely new perspective on every single aspect of their venture. When someone asks me about starting a business, I say, “exactly why?”, “what is is you really want from this, do you know?”. You’d be surprised st how few people are really clear on what they actually want the outcomes to be in a tangible way. My advice is to create any business that makes money and do your passion as a hobby. There’s another thing.... people starting their first business generally don’t understand the importance of cash flow. They don’t want to know, they’ve got no reference point in their head to understand it. Nothing you can say will bring them to understand the importance of cash flow. In a years time there will be those who grasped it (might still be in business) anc those who didn’t (out of business).

raffael-vogler 8y ago

> And because you aren’t independently wealthy and/or don’t have a spouse who makes six figures, you’re probably going to be non-profit. I don't understand the logic behind this. Wouldn't not being independently wealthy rather imply attempting to be for-profit?

mcguire 8y ago
Artists spaces aren't well known for making a profit, and you cannot attract donations as a for-profit.

clarkevans 8y ago

The author talks about this as a charitable (501c3) vs for-profit endeavor. I don't see any talk about using a cooperative structure. Cooperatives don't need IRS approval, since they operate commercially; any profits (and there won't be) are distributed proportionally to the users of the facility via 1099-DIV. Then, you run a membership drive to raise money. The membership then is used to select the board. Anyway, there's lots of experience doing cooperatives for stores like this. It is not easy, but starting a business of any kind is not easy. If you can't do a membership drive that builds enough grass-roots support and community buy-in, then don't do a cooperative. Here are some additional resources: https://www.nasco.coop/ https://www.nasco.coop/ https://www.ncba.coop/ https://www.ncba.coop/ http://www.uwcc.wisc.edu/ http://www.uwcc.wisc.edu/

someguydave 8y ago
Wouldn’t the members each be legally liable for anything that goes wrong?
- sdenton4 8y ago
  It's still a legal entity, just like any other private business. Liability should still be held by the company.
- jrochkind1 8y ago
  It's a corporation. "limited liability" is part of the basic idea of a corporation, right? The _board_ will be individually liable for gross negligence or criminal malfeasance, same as any corporate board. The members are no more liable than shareholders in any other corporation, ie virtually none. (Beyond losing their equity completely, of course).
  - someguydave 8y ago
    I thought you were specifying a partnership, not an LLC.
robotbikes 8y ago

xtiansimon 8y ago

(I love Poetry Magazine)

chiefalchemist 8y ago

I was the owner of a retail store from '90 to '00. The ecomm version overlapped from '97 to 2007. Given that experience, I read this thinking: This person(s) was massively underprepared, as well as underfunded. They also seemed to believe that all their options (in growing the biz) were too difficult. Marketing was rarely mentioned. I don't want to be negative but there are two life rules (not just biz) that apply here: - If it were easy, everyone would be doing it - Making it look easy is very very hard. Pardon me for stating the obvious ;)

wiz21c 8y ago
I'd say their only problem was : underfunded. All others problems becomes much more easy when you're funded (they say it in the article I think). (and that's why, imho, if you have nobody to give (yep, "give") you the amount of money you need, you'll never ever make it; that's a very unequal world...)
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  Yes. Ultimely, no funds === "failure." None the less, what I read was someone expecting the process to be easier than a traditional job. If you have less money then time + energy is your next best asset. Sucks. But that's the nature of the beast. I feel for this person(s). But they didn't do their homework. That is on them.
- rossdavidh 8y ago
  Speaking of small businesses (I'm married to the founder of one), the number one downfall of small businesses is spending too much money early, when they don't know yet what actually pays back. Getting more funding early, tends to make this problem worse.

oikos 8y ago

Hi! I love this kind of spaces. This is how I would advise to do it. Art/literature - create high quality, high ROI product offering first. Hand bound collectables for example. Low cost digital counterparts. Find niche online first. Crowdfund, test. Have the publishing first. That's raising capital. Profit/Non-Profit no real difference if you have income. Just don't rely on grants and voluntary resources (economic volatility will hit these first). Physical space: make it enchanting (design/brand/service/experience). So that people would want to pop in regardless of products. High ROI food: coffee, tea, pastry, nibbles, smoothies and such. Food=energy. Sell local energy (economic volatility will hit this last). Innovate. Constantly change the furniture, accessories - sell them. Both online and at the physical space. Think of it as a curated space. Assess risks particular to the location/niche. Have contingency. Have another contingency for risks that are unknown. Anyone planning to open something like that - happy to give some more specific free advise (tangible products/interior- service design/branding/marketing/economics).

projectileboy 8y ago
I agree with everything you just said, but with respect, you are exactly the problem that the author was talking about. Lots of (probably great) ideas mean absolutely nothing until you’ve signed your name on a lease and put your own neck on the line. Until then, you’re just “the idea guy”.
- oikos 8y ago
  Forget about the Ghost Ship tragedy. I'm offering more than ideas - what I've done successfully since '92 - developing products / services etc. for my clients. Point being here to avoid the pitfalls of cashflow issues beforehand and working yourself to death and not enjoying what you've started. And yes, once you have these problems it may be hard to convince anyone else to put their name behind it. Operationally there's something to be said stakeholders having "skin in the game". I like that Acequias idea.

mr_isomies 8y ago

I am sure that all of this is true but really there is almost no knowledge to be extracted from this bitter, passive aggressive, get-the-bottled-up-frustration-off-of-my-chest "tale" This is just a very pointed & personal rant. I mean, good on that guy to let it out, but that's a complete waste of turning actual experience into usable advices > While all this is happening, the bookstore runs out of money, but the employee doesn’t tell anyone for over a month. Instead, the employee tells all your friends that you’ve been exploiting them this whole time.

jancsika 8y ago

Why didn't you hire a grant writer?

olvo 8y ago

They go to some lengths to dance around the issue. If you can't pay for the space based on a sustainable amount of donations, or other recurring income, you aren't running a space you are running a business and a lot of businesses fail. There is at least half a century of complaints over gentrification to that point.

coffeefirst 8y ago
Right. The rent is the problem. You can find coffee shops/bookstores/wine bars/libraries that will provide or rent out space for these events and it's far less risky.
- mcguire 8y ago
  I double-dog-dare you to find a library that will rent out space for that guy who is welding a 27 foot tall phallus.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    My librarians, a tremendous open-minded free-thinking group, might have a problem with the fire hazard but not the other part!
  - biztos 8y ago
    For Burning Man, I presume?

late2part 8y ago

https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman/ https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherma... "The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”"

coldtea 8y ago

>Then, a few months later, you wake up to the headline that 36 people died at Ghost Ship, an artist collective in Oakland, CA. When it’s all said and done, it won’t be the landlord, but the leaseholders, Derick Almena and Max Harris, who’ll be charged with manslaughter and face up to 39 years in prison. That's a big problem right there (all the bureaucracy that has creeped up for having a space or shop etc, a lot of it which didn't exist 30 and 50 years ago). If the place is inspected regularly, and is as it should be (e.g. have fire extinguishers, etc), NOBODY should be charged with anything unless they did something (like throw gasoline at the crowd). Shit happens. If adults burn in a building, it's a risk they should be willing to take when stepping it, the owner is not some nanny to prevent all natural and unnatural causes from ever becoming dangerous....

twic 8y ago
That is exactly how it works now. You don't get convicted of manslaughter because someone died in your shop, you get convicted because you were grossly negligent in preventing someone dying in your shop. If the place was inspected regularly, and was as it should be (fire extinguishers etc), then they won't be convicted. And typically, prosecutors won't charge them unless they are confident of a conviction.
- mcguire 8y ago
  I would quote some of the scary parts from the wiki page, but there's just too much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_warehouse_fire?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_warehouse_fire?wp... As a rule, you don't kill 36 out of 50 people without putting some effort in.
Symbiote 8y ago
Rather than launching into an uninformed rant about bureaucracy, you should read the background to the Ghost Ship fire. The place hadn't been inspected for decades, and didn't have basics like a fire alarm, multiple staircases, or a suitable electricity supply. People who had warned the owner of problems had been ignored. > Shit happens. If adults burn in a building, it's a risk they should be willing to take Ridiculous — those adults aren't in a position to evaluate the risk. Are they supposed each to check the fire alarm works before entering, or just ask to see a certificate showing the building has been inspected recently? Can they do a flammability test on the staircase? And what about the 17 year old who died?

throwaway487548 8y ago

Every idealistic "business" based on assumptions and wishful thinking instead of demand will inevitably fail. Demand and demand only is what makes any business possible. One has to be an exceptional, way above average artist before making himself a brand. Actually, a branding follows being exceptional.

biztos 8y ago

These two bits of advice really spoke to me: > Consider being a for-profit. and > If you’re going to have a public space, try to find a cheap place you can buy and own. I have, for a few years now, really wanted to start an art gallery, or at least something similar to an art gallery. I've looked into the local equivalent of a nonprofit, and I've considered renting a super cheap space and keeping irregular hours and bla bla bla. But I keep coming back to the idea that I want to really be in charge, even though I think it'll never make any money; and renting a loss-leader lifestyle storefront is a great way to achieve untenable fragility and poof it disappears at your next personal downturn, taking a chunk of your net worth with it. I have no idea if I'll ever pull it off, but I'm increasingly attracted to the idea of forming an LTD and buying the cheapest space I can find... someday. Maybe in ten years. In the meantime I am considering trying to do a pop-up version, which might be a stupid idea but would certainly be a learning experience and not have any recurring costs. The pop-up idea is, I think, useful for any kind of creative thing that doesn't require much equipment.

rkuykendall-com 8y ago
What about offering to curate a local coffee shop or coworking space or something? There's got to be some place that would not mind free art in exchange for little labels or prices. I know this was very common in my home town. Plus, the relationship could be kept loose, since you aren't exchanging any money either way.

l00sed 8y ago

What if all the people in this thread just Kickstarterd something together?

bsenftner 8y ago

I was a founder and operator of the Los Angeles free co-working space DropLabs. We lasted for 3 years before closing out of lack of interest. We never intended anything other than a free place for geeks to collect and work. We had events in the evenings, which were fairly popular. Having multiple partners with graduate business degrees, we chose not to incorporate, we just rented a space and called it "Droplabs" (why invite the taxman?) However, our location was near downtown, and the 20-something geeks were both afraid of downtown and would rather pay $40-$60+ per day to have a chair in a WeWork space in Hollywood or Santa Monica. It did not make sense, so I tried spending a week at each of the more popular co-working spaces, and learned they were not occupied by geeks or "real" startup people, but wealthy 20-somethings playing a startup game, dating one another, and with zero serious intent other than wasting their parent's money. I learned to be a success as a co-working space, one needed to create a "dating safe play pit" for white wealthy 20-somethings. I have zero interest in that.

zeure 8y ago
Location is the most important thing in marketing a physical area.
- bsenftner 8y ago
  We were located "next door" to The Brewery, the world largest freelance artist community (35K freelance artists living and working in a former brewery compound near downtown.) The artists used us far more than the geeks we were tying to attract.
  - fit2rule 8y ago
    That location is pretty famous for having the worlds largest concentration of artistic freeloaders. In fact, LA is a very difficult place to do these sorts of things - every 6 months a new wave of drop-outs hits the scene to become 'the next new up and coming thang' .. so its not really a surprise. If you want to run a successful hackrrspace in LA, you've got to find a way to make the hackers contribute to the effort. One of the best ways to do this is to have regular open-house events, promoting the contributing artists forward, and thus demoting those who freeload. Form a real community around those who contribute, and dissuade freeloaders. (Disclaimer: ran a hackrrspace in LA for 10 years, had a hell of a lot of fun, but also experienced immense frustration at just how some folks, who take so much space and creative energy, contribute nevertheless so little...)

xab9 8y ago

Heavens, I thought the fire was an allegory or a worst case scenario. Looking at the artsy enterior I feel an existential dread thinking about being trapped in that place with flames around.

pontifier 8y ago

If I knew then what I know now, would I ever have started a Makerspace? I've been running a small space for the last 4 years, and it's lost a lot of its magic for me. I used to have high hopes of inspiring others to create. It's very rarely like that. Many times it's cleaning up others messes, or fighting to grow with no resources. Once in a while though, someone's eyes light up when they see the possibilities in the waterjet or laser or 3D printer... Sometimes it's worth it. Most times it's not.