7 ms·

It isn't money. Its agency over your own life. Money is how we currently regulate and monitor the agency our citizens have over there lives and those around the

by ghthor 8y ago

It isn't money. Its agency over your own life. Money is how we currently regulate and monitor the agency our citizens have over there lives and those around them. Finding better ways to grant and assert agency over one's own life is the key to happiness AFAICT.

zhoujianfu 8y ago
UBI FTW!
rayiner 8y ago
We don't use money to "regulate and monitor the agency" people have over their own lives. We use money as a medium of exchange enabling people to get other people to do things for them. Money doesn't make you happy. Being able to pay a doctor to take care of you when you're sick, pay a private school teacher to heap attention on your kid, pay a chef to prepare nice meals for you at a restaurant--those things make you happy. If all people wanted was agency over themselves most people could do it--living off the land in the middle of nowhere is still pretty cheap here in the U.S.
- ghthor 8y ago
  Being unable to pay for something you need to live your life is bvb the same as having no agency over ones life. I see no difference. Sure, if you found that no one was willing to provide you with the money you required to make decisions and live your life you could move somewhere else. That act in and of itself is an act of agency with the likely goal of improving one's situation. As far as I can tell you're supporting my argument, all in saying is that money doesn't equal agency, it's the provider of agency in our current civilization. There are either ways we could provide individual agency to our citizens with getting it all muddled up in the medium of exchange for bartering and resource allotment.
  - logicchains 8y ago
    >Being unable to pay for something you need to live your life is bvb the same as having no agency over ones life. Requiring someone else to provide something you need without compensating them with something they want in return (money or barter) is removing their agency over their life.
- joe_the_user 8y ago
  "We use money as a medium of exchange enabling people to get other people to do things for them. " How does money get other people to do things for you? Well, there has to be this group of individuals who are just dying for that money and will do all manner of things to get it. That flexibility comes from desperation and not having agency over your own life. "If all people wanted was agency over themselves most people could do it--living off the land in the middle of nowhere is still pretty cheap here in the U.S." You mean if people wanted to trade nature having control of their existence for an employer having control over their existence, it should be easy in the US. Even that is hardly true - even subsistence agriculture requires skills that can't easily gotten and moreover, all land owners have to pay taxes so you can't have true independence, a best growing your own food and hopefully selling the surplus to pay your property taxes. It's not that any of this is impossible. Rather, it's a "way out" but so is getting a lot of money so you're a labor buyer rather than the labor seller. But all this does add up to lack of money actually being a force to "regulate and monitor the agency" of most people today.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    Doctors are generally not "just dying for that money". It's pretty nice to have, though, and they still want to be paid for treating you. And if they're going to spend their time treating a patient anyway, why would they not spend it treating the patient who could pay them over the one who can't? (Barring the warm fuzzies of helping people who can't afford it...many doctors do in fact do volunteer work, but they divide that off into a separate block of time and spend the bulk of their time helping folks who can pay for it.)
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - manicdee 8y ago
      The Mercedes and mansion aren’t going to pay for themselves.
      - pen2l 8y ago
- code_duck 8y ago
  Well, you’re kind of stopping halfway. Being able to pay other people to do things for me that I would not be able to do myself gives me agency over my own life. The point is acquiring things for me, not anything that happens to the other people.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >We don't use money to "regulate and monitor the agency" people have over their own lives. We might not advertise that we use them explicitly for this, but this is exactly what they end up doing. People that need money have to give away their time and do stuff for other people. >We use money as a medium of exchange enabling people to get other people to do things for them. Po-ta-toh, po-tah-to. Those people that do "things for them" give up part of their own agency of what to do and part of their own time in exchange of getting paid. They can still pick between this or that job (if they're lucky and there are plenty of jobs), but they can't choose not to give their time to a job, or to be too picky about which job to do (lest they starve). >If all people wanted was agency over themselves most people could do it--living off the land in the middle of nowhere is still pretty cheap here in the U.S. The agency doesn't end in subsistence, as people aren't animals. It includes being able to do things like e.g. travel, watch tv, eat a nice meal, surf the internet, etc. -- and that gets costly fast. Part of that agency also includes that is shouldn't involve others treating them like pariahs (because again, they're not animals).
  - chii 8y ago
    > It includes being able to do things like e.g. travel, watch tv, eat a nice meal, surf the internet, etc. -- and that gets costly fast. by that definition, nobody can have true agency, until a post-scarcity society where provision of services does not require any labour from any human, and is free.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >by that definition, nobody can have true agency, until a post-scarcity society where provision of services does not require any labour from any human, and is free. Of course. Nobody is 100% free. At best we have fewer limitations to what we decide to do, but not none. Even in a post scarcity world, where we would much freer, we wouldn't have 100% agency (for one, we can't do whatever we like to other persons, we need to respect their agency too. Second we have inherent limits, as to what we can do without getting tired, talent, a lifespan, etc). So our agency is limited in several ways.
mpweiher 8y ago
"Money is coined liberty" -- Fyodor Dostoevsky
- Jill_the_Pill 8y ago
  "A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone." -- HD Thoreau
tachyonbeam 8y ago
I think of it the same way. Money is power, and the most important kind of power for your own well-being is control over your own life. Whenever I get very stressed at work, I find it reassuring to think that, worst case scenario, I have enough "fuck you money" piled up that I could walk away and take my time to look for a new job on my own terms. Knowing this in the back of my mind also allows me to negotiate my working conditions more boldly. I dare to pick projects I'm interested in and say no to others. I have a fairly high-paying job, but I would like to find a way to earn more eventually. Not so I can be filthy rich and buy myself ridiculous things most people can't afford, but so I can have the freedom to take a sabbatical and travel, or start my own business, or heck, retire early, while I'm still healthy enough to enjoy life. I grew up poor, and to me, having more earnings/savings makes me feel more safe and in control of my life. The biggest difference it has made recently is going from having roommates to having my own place. I'm an introvert, I need time alone, and I find it really rewarding to be able to come home to my own little sanctuary after work.
- marketgod 8y ago
  Compounded interest is your friend. Start using the stock market. It's the only way to make money without working "hard." Rule of 72 is something you can read about.
  - joejerryronnie 8y ago
    This is a very easy statement to make in the middle of an unprecedented bull market. But you know what they say about things that go up . . .
    - Judgmentality 8y ago
      ...they go into orbit? While I'm a big believer that we're going to see a big correction in the next couple of years (the kind that will make 2008 look like a foreshock), nobody knows how much higher the market can go and for how long. Maybe it will still be going up before I die. The conventional wisdom is to never try to time the market. Buy and hold, and in the long run you'll make money.
anonymous5133 8y ago
100% agree with this. When I think of money..I think of freedom...to do what I want to do. When you don't have money or your need to get money then suddenly you have to do stuff that you don't want to do. Even if you have a job you love to do...you are still going to work and taking orders from your boss. It would always be preferable to do the stuff you love to do...but on your terms.

by ghthor 8y ago

zhoujianfu 8y ago

UBI FTW!

rayiner 8y ago

We don't use money to "regulate and monitor the agency" people have over their own lives. We use money as a medium of exchange enabling people to get other people to do things for them. Money doesn't make you happy. Being able to pay a doctor to take care of you when you're sick, pay a private school teacher to heap attention on your kid, pay a chef to prepare nice meals for you at a restaurant--those things make you happy. If all people wanted was agency over themselves most people could do it--living off the land in the middle of nowhere is still pretty cheap here in the U.S.

ghthor 8y ago
Being unable to pay for something you need to live your life is bvb the same as having no agency over ones life. I see no difference. Sure, if you found that no one was willing to provide you with the money you required to make decisions and live your life you could move somewhere else. That act in and of itself is an act of agency with the likely goal of improving one's situation. As far as I can tell you're supporting my argument, all in saying is that money doesn't equal agency, it's the provider of agency in our current civilization. There are either ways we could provide individual agency to our citizens with getting it all muddled up in the medium of exchange for bartering and resource allotment.
- logicchains 8y ago
  >Being unable to pay for something you need to live your life is bvb the same as having no agency over ones life. Requiring someone else to provide something you need without compensating them with something they want in return (money or barter) is removing their agency over their life.
joe_the_user 8y ago
"We use money as a medium of exchange enabling people to get other people to do things for them. " How does money get other people to do things for you? Well, there has to be this group of individuals who are just dying for that money and will do all manner of things to get it. That flexibility comes from desperation and not having agency over your own life. "If all people wanted was agency over themselves most people could do it--living off the land in the middle of nowhere is still pretty cheap here in the U.S." You mean if people wanted to trade nature having control of their existence for an employer having control over their existence, it should be easy in the US. Even that is hardly true - even subsistence agriculture requires skills that can't easily gotten and moreover, all land owners have to pay taxes so you can't have true independence, a best growing your own food and hopefully selling the surplus to pay your property taxes. It's not that any of this is impossible. Rather, it's a "way out" but so is getting a lot of money so you're a labor buyer rather than the labor seller. But all this does add up to lack of money actually being a force to "regulate and monitor the agency" of most people today.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  Doctors are generally not "just dying for that money". It's pretty nice to have, though, and they still want to be paid for treating you. And if they're going to spend their time treating a patient anyway, why would they not spend it treating the patient who could pay them over the one who can't? (Barring the warm fuzzies of helping people who can't afford it...many doctors do in fact do volunteer work, but they divide that off into a separate block of time and spend the bulk of their time helping folks who can pay for it.)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - manicdee 8y ago
    The Mercedes and mansion aren’t going to pay for themselves.
    - pen2l 8y ago
code_duck 8y ago
Well, you’re kind of stopping halfway. Being able to pay other people to do things for me that I would not be able to do myself gives me agency over my own life. The point is acquiring things for me, not anything that happens to the other people.
coldtea 8y ago
>We don't use money to "regulate and monitor the agency" people have over their own lives. We might not advertise that we use them explicitly for this, but this is exactly what they end up doing. People that need money have to give away their time and do stuff for other people. >We use money as a medium of exchange enabling people to get other people to do things for them. Po-ta-toh, po-tah-to. Those people that do "things for them" give up part of their own agency of what to do and part of their own time in exchange of getting paid. They can still pick between this or that job (if they're lucky and there are plenty of jobs), but they can't choose not to give their time to a job, or to be too picky about which job to do (lest they starve). >If all people wanted was agency over themselves most people could do it--living off the land in the middle of nowhere is still pretty cheap here in the U.S. The agency doesn't end in subsistence, as people aren't animals. It includes being able to do things like e.g. travel, watch tv, eat a nice meal, surf the internet, etc. -- and that gets costly fast. Part of that agency also includes that is shouldn't involve others treating them like pariahs (because again, they're not animals).
- chii 8y ago
  > It includes being able to do things like e.g. travel, watch tv, eat a nice meal, surf the internet, etc. -- and that gets costly fast. by that definition, nobody can have true agency, until a post-scarcity society where provision of services does not require any labour from any human, and is free.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >by that definition, nobody can have true agency, until a post-scarcity society where provision of services does not require any labour from any human, and is free. Of course. Nobody is 100% free. At best we have fewer limitations to what we decide to do, but not none. Even in a post scarcity world, where we would much freer, we wouldn't have 100% agency (for one, we can't do whatever we like to other persons, we need to respect their agency too. Second we have inherent limits, as to what we can do without getting tired, talent, a lifespan, etc). So our agency is limited in several ways.

mpweiher 8y ago

"Money is coined liberty" -- Fyodor Dostoevsky

Jill_the_Pill 8y ago
"A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone." -- HD Thoreau

tachyonbeam 8y ago

I think of it the same way. Money is power, and the most important kind of power for your own well-being is control over your own life. Whenever I get very stressed at work, I find it reassuring to think that, worst case scenario, I have enough "fuck you money" piled up that I could walk away and take my time to look for a new job on my own terms. Knowing this in the back of my mind also allows me to negotiate my working conditions more boldly. I dare to pick projects I'm interested in and say no to others. I have a fairly high-paying job, but I would like to find a way to earn more eventually. Not so I can be filthy rich and buy myself ridiculous things most people can't afford, but so I can have the freedom to take a sabbatical and travel, or start my own business, or heck, retire early, while I'm still healthy enough to enjoy life. I grew up poor, and to me, having more earnings/savings makes me feel more safe and in control of my life. The biggest difference it has made recently is going from having roommates to having my own place. I'm an introvert, I need time alone, and I find it really rewarding to be able to come home to my own little sanctuary after work.

marketgod 8y ago
Compounded interest is your friend. Start using the stock market. It's the only way to make money without working "hard." Rule of 72 is something you can read about.
- joejerryronnie 8y ago
  This is a very easy statement to make in the middle of an unprecedented bull market. But you know what they say about things that go up . . .
  - Judgmentality 8y ago
    ...they go into orbit? While I'm a big believer that we're going to see a big correction in the next couple of years (the kind that will make 2008 look like a foreshock), nobody knows how much higher the market can go and for how long. Maybe it will still be going up before I die. The conventional wisdom is to never try to time the market. Buy and hold, and in the long run you'll make money.

anonymous5133 8y ago

100% agree with this. When I think of money..I think of freedom...to do what I want to do. When you don't have money or your need to get money then suddenly you have to do stuff that you don't want to do. Even if you have a job you love to do...you are still going to work and taking orders from your boss. It would always be preferable to do the stuff you love to do...but on your terms.