19 ms·

A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

432 points by paralelogram 8y ago

agumonkey 8y ago
I mostly hate tactile-less devices, fingers and eyes are nicely decoupled, and now I'm forced to focus on my smartphone. But recently I tried typing on android keyboard with all fingers. It's hard (no tactile delimitation or confirmation) but doable. I wonder if kids these days consider this as normal pro use of smartphones. Basically cultural relativity.
SQL2219 8y ago
This is similar to the stereotype of: young people are good with computers. Browsing Instagram is not the same as creating value through programming and complex problem solving.
- NullPrefix 8y ago
  Watching TV makes you good with RF.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    Watching TV in the 50s made you good with knob adjustment and basic electronics maintenance, just because things tended to break and also tended to break in fixable ways. The same thing is true today, kids that play Minecraft aren't getting any better with computers by clicking on blocks, they are getting better by doing the things necessary to keep the blocks there in front of them (because if you want to install mods or run a server for your friends for example Minecraft becomes about as reliable as an early TV).
    - userbinator 8y ago
      Watching TV in the 50s made you good with knob adjustment and basic electronics maintenance, just because things tended to break and also tended to break in fixable ways. In particular, tube replacement was pretty common DIY and even nonspecialist corner stores would sell tubes and have self-service testers: http://travelphotobase.com/v/USOK/OKCH66.HTM http://travelphotobase.com/v/USOK/OKCH66.HTM In similar analogy, I wonder how many people today know how to replace a lightbulb and will do it themselves, and what that would be like in a few decades...
      - whatshisface 8y ago
        Embedded computers have done a lot to ruin automotive DIY. Someone should write a short story where nobody can change their low-failure-rate LED light bulbs without calling a technician who has a programmer card with the right IoT private keys. Electric utilities are no longer common-carier and underground cyberpunk "Edisons" fabricate incandscents that disguise themselves as toasters on the grid in order to circumvent the expensive licensing deals between lightbulb manufacturers and power companies.
- strken 8y ago
  I've always felt that young people are seen as good with computers because they're more confident and less afraid of failure, and that even if their only experience is instagram they're more likely to google a scary error message or click around at random in various menus.
  - some_account 8y ago
    It's because old timers are much more afraid to look bad since you are "supposed" to live up to that external image you put on LinkedIn. :)
  - megaman22 8y ago
    I'm not sure that that is the case, any longer. I have a lot of trouble with our college-aged interns, because they will barely make an effort to try doing something before getting stonewalled and bailing out to go ask someone to do it for them. Sometimes I just want to yell at them to run the code and see what happens, and then try to figure out why what happened happened. And these are computer science majors.
    - LyndsySimon 8y ago
      Maybe they need someone to yell at them to break them out of their comfort zone and learn something new. They might find they enjoy it or even that they’re good at it once they do it. It’s human nature to feel like the next generation is coddled, of course. Maybe the real problem is that the current generation isn’t as capable of instruction as previous ones.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > doing something before getting stonewalled and bailing out to go ask someone to do it for them Funny this is the problem. One of my major life lessons was learning not to always persevere, and to ask for help as soon as possible. Solves more problems faster, teaches you more ways of looking at a problem and smoothly scales to delegation.
      - 8y ago
- conception 8y ago
  Likewise with the Japanese living in the land of the future in the 90s-00's. I found there that people having access to tech was much much different than being technical. Fancy phones but few personal computers or the skills that go along with them.
- gaius 8y ago
  The BBC love to divide the population into “digital immigrants” and “digital natives”, always with the subtext that the “natives” are superior. But their so-called journalists can’t even understand that the “digital immigrants” that they sneer at actually built everything and the “natives” are mere consumers
  - cm2187 8y ago
    Agree. Though if we think about it, kids who were computer savy in the 90s were certainly more technologically sophisticated than computer savy kids now (when you have to actually install TCP/IP it makes you learn what it is!). But the population of kids with daily access to computers then was much lower than today. So now you have a much bigger base which on average is less technical, but because of its cheer size, there is probably a much greater absolute population of sophisticated kids now than 20y ago.
- aaronmdjones 8y ago
  Related: http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/ http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-co...
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    I was just about to post this so I guess I'll just upvote this instead.
acutesoftware 8y ago
If you aren't actually creating content [art, software, serious writing, etc] then using a mobile is fine for just consuming and it isn't surprising that these groups don't know how to use a computer. It is sad though, that young people appear to be less computer literate in terms of creating content (as an overall percentage of previous generations).
- acct1771 8y ago
  Less literate in terms of creating anything.
  - dsego 8y ago
    Probably because there is an abundance of creative work around us, so there is less incentive to be creative yourself.
    - ganzuul 8y ago
      Creative-commercial and creative-inspired are very different things. If all you ever experience is the uninspired stuff you might not have much faith in art.
  - bachbach 8y ago
    I agree and I'm in this group. I blame the duration of modern education. It has made newer generations less flexible. Institutionalization. It's a paradox because the Internet has made the pollination of ideas more likely - but we are less likely to do new things, we stay in our boxes. This shows up in the productivity and entrepreneurship statistics. It may be true that wages are poor and rents are high - but also we're really not helping ourselves. Rates of self built homes should be increasing among young people but I don't see that. Usually over the years a generation gets richer but I suspect many young people with 'careers' are waiting for a golden goose. If you are aged > 30 and rent in a major city and earn less than 40k-60k per year - you need to wake up and get out before you become a poor middle aged person. Most people my age from university are living like students a decade after leaving the university. Having to live with your parents or live in a house share cannot be half your adult life if you have a successful career, nor can forking most of your income over to a landlord. HN's residents are an anomaly in the broader economy and their experience is alien to most of their generation.
sexydefinesher 8y ago
Cant say i feel sorry for the people who chose to be enslaved to interfaces. Information technology will continue to expand into human life more and more, whether you are prepared or not.
- FactolSarin 8y ago
  In my experience with kids, it's not a choice. It's mostly poor kids who have this problem. Their family doesn't have a PC, and an old/cheap smartphone is the way they access the Internet.
  - mikebelanger 8y ago
    Yeah definitely. A phone is considered much more necessary for basic functioning in a modern society - whereas the computer is a little 'extra'. Naturally poorer people only invest in the more basic, cheaper thing. I believe projects like Raspberry Pi were attempts to mitigate this issue too. Hopefully they gain more traction in society at large.
    - walshemj 8y ago
      Well that's some of what it's doing now but originally it was for A Level students to get real experience in the two years of school before they went to university. And A level students in STEM subjects are not typically from poor backgrounds.
  - dorchadas 8y ago
    I disagree with this. I work as a teacher at a secondary school. Even the wealthier kids, the ones who I know have computers at home, and often their own laptops that they bring to school, can't use a keyboard to save their life. They're always impressed at how fast I can type (I learned from playing MUDs way too much when I was their age) without errors and how I know all the keyboard shortcuts and such.
nickserv 8y ago
Do your children a favor and get them a "real" computer with keyboard and mouse, instead of a tablet. I've found it helps with several things. For one, I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Also, learning to use a keyboard while learning the alphabet seems like a virtuous cycle, at least in my personal experiences. And it may sound old fashioned, but making things too easy for kids makes them less independent and less willing to put in the effort required for learning. Compare for example searching for animal pictures using voice search versus going to the search engine, typing out the term, clicking on "images"... The first is much easier and teaches instant gratification, while the second teaches perseverance and comes with a greater sense of accomplishment. Disclaimer: purely anecdotal, take the preceding with a salt shaker...
- 21 8y ago
  > I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Why do you think this is a bad think? This is how kids learn how the world works, by trying the same thing in different contexts, like how small children put everything in their mouth. We don't criticize that, it's part of learning. > Compare for example searching for animal pictures using voice search versus going to the search engine, typing out the term, clicking on "images" I don't know, when I was a kid I was searching for animal pictures by opening an atlas picture book. Was it better, did I became smarter because I did this this instead of using Google or a voice search? I don't think that making information access easier is ever a bad think.
  - codingdave 8y ago
    It depends on the age of the child. A toddler who is still exploring the world is one thing. A 14 year old who swipes at a book is a problem. (I don't know the age of the children from these anecdotes.) On the other hand, a toddler who explores the world as if it is a touch screen has been given way too much time on a touch screen. So there is definitely a problem there.
dooglius 8y ago
>Given that they can write and submit their school reports with smartphones Would students really do this? I couldn't imagine trying to write an entire essay or a lab report on a smartphone. Maybe Japanese schools don't have to turn in longer things like that?
- sourceless 8y ago
  I mean, if you grew up with phone keyboard as your main method of text entry, this might be normal to you.
- tiatia123 8y ago
  Yes.
- crazygringo 8y ago
  As someone who recently worked in education... yes. Anecdotally, I tended to see it at the community-college level with students who owned a large-screen phone and didn't own a computer. I don't think anyone is writing whole research papers or serious lab reports on phones. A two-page reading response is totally doable. Something with footnotes or equations, not so much.
  - ssivark 8y ago
    Yes, one can technically vomit out a few hundred words using a small touch screen. But the tools make it damn difficult to edit and re-organize text. Does this mean that all such reports are basically stream-of-consciousness writing instead of a more carefully polished piece of work?
    - innocenat 8y ago
      It's not hard to edit & reorganised with larger screen smartphone at all.
      - messe 8y ago
        It seems like it would be more awkward than with a mouse+keyboard controlled text editor, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I'd love to get better with working with touchscreens, but I haven't seen any way of getting the composability I've become accustomed to on the *nix command line and associated editors (be it vim, emacs or even the monoliths of atom and vscode).
analog31 8y ago
When I look at computer interfaces, I'm drawn back to the (probably mythical) story of the QWERTY keyboard, that it was designed to slow us down because our brains are faster than the mechanism of the typewriter. The modern GUI could be interpreted in that way too: Forcing us to direct the computer through a series of painfully discrete steps, to camouflage the fact that it can't interpret natural language. I've seen kids type on their phones, faster than I can type on a QWERTY keyboard. So, give them a phone that mimics a wireless keyboard and let them use it to interact with a bigger computer. As for learning things like Excel, the sad part is not that they haven't been taught the mechanical skills, but that those tools could enrich their K-12 education, e.g., in math and science class.
- rustcharm 8y ago
  Here's a take on QWERTY (probably not designed to slow us down) on the Smithsonian website: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-fiction-the-legend-of-the-qwerty-keyboard-49863249/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-fiction-...
- goda90 8y ago
  QWERTY was invented to move letters that were often close to each other in words to be further apart on the keyboard so as to prevent jams when two keys were pressed at once on a typewriter.
  - rustcharm 8y ago
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-fiction-the-legend-of-the-qwerty-keyboard-49863249/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-fiction-...
zorkw4rg 8y ago
I always thought the idea of the digital divide never went far enough. If you look at the work performed by regular people on a daily basis using computers and the work performed by skilled software engineers there is such an absurd level of difference in efficiency. Its no wonder that AI will replace most jobs people do. AI will not be able to make those people more efficient, it will replace them. AI can't help them to be more efficient since they don't know how to think on any fundamental level. > “Everybody in this country should learn to program a computer, because it teaches you how to think” - Steve Jobs
donretag 8y ago
In the meantime, services like Venmo are becoming mobile only since the majority of users only use the mobile app (so they say). Many new startup ideas are mobile-first since that is where their user base is.
- curun1r 8y ago
  > Many new startup ideas are mobile-first since that is where their user base is The main reason it's smart to go mobile first is the transition from mobile to desktop is significantly easier than going from desktop to mobile. It's very easy to design a desktop product that's almost impossible to make mobile and almost impossible to do the opposite.
gaius 8y ago
they can write and submit their school reports with smartphones I can only imagine these reports must be completely trivial if they can be written without the use of a keyboard. Standards aren’t slipping they say...
imron 8y ago
> Young people who can’t use keyboards How is this different from previous generations? The examples listed (not knowing how to use a keyboard, not knowing how to double click and not knowing what a 'cell' in a spreadsheet is) were all extremely common among my classmates back in highschool (and this is talking about the 90's here, so computers were in fairly widespread use at this point). The new digital divide is just like the old one.
- hocuspocus 8y ago
  In the 2000's I had to write physics and chemistry lab reports, typically 4-5 pages long, with enough formulas that I ended up ditching Word and MathType for some basic LaTeX. In maths I had to write Excel macros and Mathematica scripts. I know that education in Japan is probably a bit more disconnected from reality compared to the pragmatism we see here, but still, the goal of high-school is to prepare students for college no?
  - dorchadas 8y ago
    > but still, the goal of high-school is to prepare students for college no It depends on who you ask. In the school I work at, in the Rural South in America, many parents and students say the goal of high school should be to teach the students how to do a competent job and take care of themselves after school. So they complain about having to learn Algebra II and other "useless" stuff, while they don't even know how loans and interest and debt and such works. Or how to book a hotel, things like that. School has, basically, become expected to teach students both job training and basic life skills that, a few generations ago, parents and companies would have explained. It's become basically free training, and, honestly, it defeats the purpose of education; universities are the same way.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      It depends on who you ask because school serves different purposes for different people. School is a service that someone can use as part of their education.
- 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
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euske 8y ago
I've seen this claim over and over, and failed to see how this is a big deal. Most people in Japan in 80s couldn't type either. (An English typewriter wasn't something that most people would use or own.) Even if kids can't type, I bet they would learn typing faster than the kids 30 years ago. Sounds like a fuss about nothing.
wallflower 8y ago
Having volunteered to teach kids coming from single-parent household with no computer at home, I've seen how the inability to type on a QWERTY keyboard with any modicum of speed (hunt-and-peck) actually limits them when we encourage them to 'iterate', 'try fast and fail', 'just code a line of something', or 'what will that do?'. If expressing your thoughts and intentions to the editor is painful and slow, it is a concrete barrier to learning how to fail faster. Forgot teaching kids how to code right away , teach them how to type first so they can "commune" with the machine (ideally with ergonomics and whole arm movement in mind so RSI is not an issue).
- colanderman 8y ago
  Specifically I would suggest to let them learn to type themselves, rather than following some program. (I.e., don't teach home-row typing.) I taught myself to type when I was 5 or 6, and type with wrists straight (so, at an angle to each other), hands in no fixed location, and both hands sharing duty for several keys. I credit this with my freedom from keyboard-related RSI even after 28 years of typing. (I have had mouse-related RSI. Mice cause grip issues.) Better still is to give them a real keyboard, i.e. one with key travel, not a crappy laptop keyboard. I learned on an Apple II, plenty of key travel. Typing on a MacBook over the course of three recent years nearly destroyed my typing ability due to what I can only describe as something like the yips. Switching back to a real keyboard has helped.
  - egypturnash 8y ago
    I think there's something to this. I can type with a pretty decent speed if I look down at the keys now and then; my hands float around the keyboard and mostly hit keys with the first two fingers on either hand, with the occasional left pinky for a modifier and right thumb for space. I have tried to Learn To Touch Type multiple times in my life and every single time I could feel my wrists starting to ache from holding them close together and angled. Dealing with that's just not worth the increased speed and ability to never look at the keyboard that touch-typing would give me.
- scarface74 8y ago
redleggedfrog 8y ago
"However, much of this does not align with the knowledge necessary to work in their future jobs." This is not a problem. If they're not smart enough to realize they are deficient in necessary skills for future personal prosperity then I probably don't want to hire them for my company anyway. And if for some reason I do, then they better damned well learn how to type in a hurry. It's not the most difficult skill. Do you know where the real problem is with the damned smart phones and not knowing how to type and do your job? Managers. We've got a world full of people supposed to be managing and instead they're spending their time texting unintelligible and incomplete crap to their employees while they gallivant around. WTF happened to actually working?!
jdietrich 8y ago
It's worth bearing in mind that the source is Japanese. All input methods for the Japanese language are a compromise. Inputting kanji on a physical keyboard is nowhere near as fluid as inputting Latin characters - you're constantly toggling between inputting kana and selecting the kanji options presented by the IME. The prediction and correction technologies of smartphone keyboards are a very good match for kanji and hànzì input. As a second-language user of Chinese, I find it considerably faster and easier to input hànzì on a smartphone than with a physical keyboard. The context switching between inputting pīnyīn and selecting hànzì is much less expensive when the hànzì are presented directly above the on-screen keyboard. The prediction and correction algorithms seem to be far more intelligent on mobile, which largely compensates for the slower and more error-prone tactile experience. It is my understanding that most young Japanese people prefer the flick input method, which is a refinement of the old keitai input method used on featurephones with numeric keypads; they are often startlingly quick at using this method, but it poses a far higher switching cost when moving to a QWERTY-derived physical keyboard. I find it entirely plausible that the flick method could simply be inherently superior. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V-za9LT_30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V-za9LT_30
- natch 8y ago
  On a tangent here but curious, if you know: what's the closest input method you can get to flick for Chinese? I realize the languages are quite different (might be botching this, but my fuzzy understanding for Japanese is it has kanji+katakana+kana+romaji, where Chinese has only hanzi + pinyin|zhuyin/etc.) Do you think flick is compatible with Chinese?
  - emodendroket 8y ago
    They don't have that. They do have handwriting recognition.
    - natch 8y ago
      Well the question was what do they have that comes closest. They do have a lot more than just pinyin and handwriting. If you don't know, it's fine to just say that, or stay away from the discussion, especially when you seem to be answering with such certainty on something where you didn't read the question.
deleted 8y ago
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gameswithgo 8y ago
I've seen this phenomenon while teaching a teenager programming (in america). He had no problem typing letters, but when it came to symbols like $ % [ ( etc, it took him forever to find them. It makes sense as modern computers don't require that you edit autoexec.bat files to get a game running and he is probably mostly on a phone or tablet anyway. But I was surprised!
13years 8y ago
I didn't introduce anything electronic to my son until he was about 7. I then told him, he wouldn't be allowed to use a computer until he learns to type first. One year later, he was typing over 100 wpm. Now a teenager, he types about 130wpm. He started with a basic online course to learn the proper technique. Then afterward, he started playing an online game called nitrotype. Which made learning to type fast enjoyable.
jkabrg 8y ago
I still prefer pencil and paper. I find it's the least limiting because you can draw anything, the easiest to use because you don't have to learn a GUI or a language, and the fastest -- yet software people will still wonder how they can GREP it. Another contra is legibility and possibly aesthetics.
kibwen 8y ago
I'm confused here. The article implies that kids aren't learning how to type because they don't have access to a PC at home. But for the majority of the history of computing, it was the case that most people wouldn't have had access to a PC at home as children. My parents learned to type on typewriters at college. I had a mandatory class entirely dedicated to typing in middle school. Have schools stopped offering computer classes, assuming that kids already know how to use them from their experience at home? If so, then that sounds like a problem all on its own given that poorer households might not have had a computer even during the PC golden age.
- jedberg 8y ago
  > Have schools stopped offering computer classes, Many have stopped or at least severely cut back > assuming that kids already know how to use them from their experience at home? Partly this and partly budget cuts. Computer skills aren't on the standardized tests, so they are a "waste of time" like art and music and history and everything else that isn't on the test. So they are deemphasized. Some schools with money for computers and a computer teacher will at least try to integrate it into their language instruction by doing exercises on the computer.
- protomyth 8y ago
  Typing class and most computer classes are long gone. One of the problems with dedicated computer class is it has most of the characteristics of a vocational class. You need a dedicated teacher, a special room, and special equipment. At least shop classes don't need many updates to the equipment. Computers are now a resource, and most kids get minimum instruction (just enough to type papers or use the educational programs).
- cup-of-tea 8y ago
  Some of my teachers knew how to touch type. We were never taught. Nowadays I work with people who type with two fingers. I'm 30 and live in the UK. The ball has been dropped on computer skills. Anyone can say they "know Microsoft Office" but they won't be tested on it and nobody ever talks about typing as a skill.
nimbius 8y ago
as a blue collar engine tech, I dont think you can segment the part of the population that cant use a keyboard into old/young. I know plenty of people within my age that freeze up trying to type in something as simple as a first name. I work with veterans that cant search for a part number, or a make/model of a vehicle without pausing 5 seconds between keys. My typing speed is great, but its because I got into Linux and programming. The largest determination of your typing ability is whether you spend most of the day with your hands on a wrench or your fingers on a keyboard.
paulryanrogers 8y ago
During the fourth grade we were taught to type on keyboards, but only as one part of a computer class. I forgot how soon after. Once I got interested in PC gaming I learned to hunt and peck quicky, program batch files, and use macros. Then I got a computer science degree and worked for almost two years as a programmer; typing by staring at keys using two fingers. When the time came it didn't take long to relearn 'proper' typing. For some kids a little exposure to fundamentals at the right time is enough. And there is more to computing than input technique. So long as the kids are interested and motivated nature will find a way.
btschaegg 8y ago
An interesting part in the article: > Lena-Sophie Mueller, of the German nonprofit Initiative D21, pointed out: “Timetables (for railways) are no longer available in paper form. More and more services are based on the Internet [...]” This has been going on for quite a while. I distinctly remember being stranded in Düsseldorf a few years back. I was at the train station, looking for a train (I knew the destination but not which train I had to take). It was very late and since the roaming costs were horrendous (around 15 € per MB, I think), I had deactivated all mobile data on my phone. I searched more or less the whole train station, failing to find some printed plan that told me which train to pick. You could see where the plans used to be, but they had all been removed. Luckily, a lonely waffle vendor still was around and helped me out with his iPhone. I found a line/station map later on -- inside the train in question. How anyone can come to the conclusion that this is the place to look, is beyond me.
- j605 8y ago
  Usually there are kiosks near the ticket machines or you could just ask people at the counter. Ironically I always check the printed/local displays since the online versions have no guarantee.
- Double_a_92 8y ago
  All the stations I've been to have digital displays with all the trains in the next hours.
  - btschaegg 8y ago
    Remember that this is anecdata at best :) I've been to Stuttgart recently and had no such problems at the train station there. I just wanted to point out that this phenomenon is not all that new.
dghughes 8y ago
My mother told me she saw a baby using a smartphone. He was swiping, typing, zooming etc.. The mother of the baby said he was 16 months old. So I can believe in a few years kids will grow up used to smooth phone/tablet type keyboards and not the physical type.
apozem 8y ago
I have never not had access to a desktop PC, but what about people who can't afford one? Say a poor family has $100 to spend on a kid. They're going to get a phone every time. I could definitely see a poor kid only grow up on mobile devices. Related story: My college roommate studied accounting and one of the first classes they made him take was remedial computing. Here's how Excel works, use alt-tab to switch windows, that kind of thing. I thought the class sounded dumb but maybe it's necessary.
rb808 8y ago
I don't think this is a US problem. Elementary school in US commonly uses computers a lot. My children had typing lessons in 1-3 grade, and standardized tests (both math and language arts) are done on a pc/chromebook where you're expected to type.
EamonnMR 8y ago
As I see mobile eat desktop, I worry that we loose computers as a tool for creativity and end up with computers as purely communication and consumption aids.
matz1 8y ago
The world are always evolving. Nothing sad about this. This is like saying young people can't use abacus anymore. These new generation of young people will grow up and with new kind of input method or paradigim. Who knows maybe the traditional way of programming with keyboard will evolve to something completely different for the next generation of people.
- arnaudsm 8y ago
  There are strong implications to this change. PCs are (almost) open platforms, with control, and oriented to create content. While Phones are closed, made for content consumption, and frequently don't even have a file browser.
- posting2fast 8y ago
  As a CCC speaker said [0], the window of people having seen both, of having seen the basic and simple beginnings, and who even have the option of understanding how it all works together, is very small. The people who get born now just get handed a little glowing brick they swipe around on. They need to be teached what that thing is, so that they [and those that come after them] don't just wander about the planet with these little magical boards, with all power resting with those that program these restricted devices for them. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg7snecRoMs&t=43m35s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg7snecRoMs&t=43m35s You're not more progressive if you slide back from the above, just because the date in the calendar has increased. You're certainly not more progressive if you can't slide back from it because you haven't even realized it yet. If a majority of people follows a pied piper into a mountain, then a majority of people will be lost. It will not magically transform a trap, a dead end, into "the new way forward". You're just demonstrating how completely oblivious, and how recklessly bold because of it, so many are. Last but not least, with "evolution" come watershed moments, it's not just smooth sailing from peak to peak -- that's a movie, not evolution. > If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them. -- George Orwell That is all that matters. You can write well with a touch screen, you can write badly with a keyboard. But to the degree things get reduced to references or icons, thought does end up suffering.
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
zencash 8y ago
I think it will take time, keyboard, when first encounters can be hard to use, saying that, younger people these days have access to a keyboard almost 24/7 whether it be iPads or mobiles that they use. I'd like to see how kids of this generation can manage using a franking machine [1] or even a photocopier. Our currently generation 25-40 used floppy disks at some point, now it's just an icon on your software suite [2]. Will this be the case for keyboard in 10 years time? Will the physical version be needed? [1] https://frankingmachinecompare.co.uk/what-is-franking-machine-used-for/ https://frankingmachinecompare.co.uk/what-is-franking-machin... [2] https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheFloppyDiskMeansSaveAnd14OtherOldPeopleIconsThatDontMakeSenseAnymore.aspx https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheFloppyDiskMeansSaveAnd14Ot...
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > now it's just an icon on your software suite I’m trying to remember the last time I saw this icon. Either what I’m working on has “save” as text, is constantly auto-saved or requires Ctrl-S.
  - zencash 8y ago
    I guess this is true too, we're moving so fast with software. A few programes here and there do still utilize a floppy disk as a mark to save something though.
- michaelmrose 8y ago
  An actual screen and keyboard are inherently useful regardless of which form factor device its connected to. 10 years time is way to short a time for this to cease being so.
Havoc 8y ago
People write reports on smartphones? Everyone around me can def use a keyboard. Not ten finger touch type but near enough
- zcdziura 8y ago
  This article talks primarily about people from Japan, whose script I imagine is much easier and faster to enter via a smartphone.
- jccalhoun 8y ago
  I've had college students write essays on their phone. Insanity.
falcor84 8y ago
The first example provided in the article (indeed the first sentence) is “How do I double click?”, and I want to focus on this. As a kid in the 90s, I just took double clicking as a necessary evil. But after many many opportunities of trying (mostly successfully) to teach it to both the elderly and to kids, I've gradually grown to hate it. It's such a horrible gesture, difficult to perform, complicated to reason about and entirely disconnected from any real-world metaphor. May double clicking die off and vanish, never to be found again, except for in the annals of bad ideas.
- cm2187 8y ago
  That being said my mum has been using actual computers for 20 years now (without understanding more than just what she needs), and she double-clicks on everything, even when a single-click should apply. “It works that way”. True.
  - pnloyd 8y ago
    Wouldnt work for something that toggled on a single click.. e.g checkbox
- ldjb 8y ago
  I often encounter people having issues double-clicking. Actually, a lot of people have trouble just single-clicking, so double-clicking is even more of a challenge. A lot of people just can't get the knack for clicking twice in quick succession. And the inconsistency between when they should single-click and when they should double-click causes a lot of confusion. I think it probably would make life easier to get rid of the double-click.
  - kashyapc 8y ago
    The other week my Dutch language teacher (he's ~55) wrote an email "I would like to try Linux, can you please assist?" after learning about what is open source and libre software. I was pleasantly surprised to receive his email. So last week I went to install Fedora 28 on his new laptop. It all went smoothly. No, that's a lie; I had to do a little scary command-line surgery while he watched me do it (and heard me assure he doesn't need to do anything like that). I set up all the requisite things, and since it was his first time, we went through a few common desktop workflows tailored to his needs. There I noticed: he was single-clicking where he needed to double-click—e.g. while opening a directory. I briefly explained the differences between the two and we tried again. He got better, but still struggled. I biked back home wondering if he'll continue to struggle with the double-click. :-(
catchmeifyoucan 8y ago
I can confirm this. My brother is in high school and their school uses ipads religiously to submit work, handle slide decks and do quizzes. At his age, I had a typing speed of ~40-50WPM, he can barely do 30, with a lower accuracy (spellcheck subtly saving him). No proper typing form either because touchscreen devices are really just one finger-based. This definitely exists.
xkcdefgh 8y ago
Looking at the context, it seemss like it's the keyboard that needs to evolve for these languages. I can't fathom anyone writing a school report on a smartphone in english
konart 8y ago
>“How do I double click?” “What is a cell in a spreadsheet?” >it is not uncommon for even would-be system engineers to ask such questions. How the hell is it even possible?
ezoe 8y ago
This situation is not caused by complicated Japanese input methods. This is caused by young generation who don't use traditional computer with the keyboard. It's another digital divide. Yes. The generation who didn't have a personal computer in their young age is starting to retire. Current 30s-40s years old workers are varies on computer literacy but many had a personal computer when they were a student. I belong to this generation. I was hoping that the next generation will be completely digital native and all of them has computer literacy. Just laugh us and obliterate us from work force for we can't stand a chance against such a gifted digital native generation at birth. Just like we get rid of those annoying old people who don't have a computer literacy. The invention of smartphone make that dream not happens. The smartphone makes people stupid. There is nothing smart about that computer. The smartphone is inefficient and restricted computer. You don't have a freedom to choose the OS. You don't even have a root access to that very computer you own. It doesn't have a keyboard which is the most efficient input device for text. The smartphone is designed for reading the text, not for writing. So the young generation starting to lose the ability to write the text. What makes me surprise is, that current students use the smartphone to read the papers, to write the necessary essay and reports necessary for graduation. The fresh young generations who has just graduated enter the working class without learning how to use the keyboard. But the real work which involve a lot of text writing requires efficient input device such as the keyboard. So the current trending of smartphone reduce the effective good workers from already reducing younger population in Japan. I refuse to own a phone. Smartphone is the worst invention of our time. It disrupt attention, reduce computer literacy, or even plain literacy for it makes harder to write the text for most of them.
- griffordson 8y ago
  What percentage of PC users has ever installed an OS of any kind, ever?
  - pnloyd 8y ago
    Well there are a ton of gamers who like building there own machines so I imagine it's higher then you'd think. R/pcmasterrace has 1.5 million subscribers, and that's mostly from English speaking populations.
rocky1138 8y ago
They don't teach touch-typing in school anymore? It's really surprising and disheartening, if so.
snegrus 8y ago
I understand the issue described in the article, but I don't understand why people from this thread are so obfuscated about smartphones, teens not using physical keyboards or babies using smartphones better than they keep their own balance on 2 feet. We were drawing with blood in caves, we were scratching stones with other stones, we were sculpting symbols on walls in Egypt, we started writing on papyrus, then paper, then started using typewriters, then physical keyboards and now virtual keyboards. Don't act like the generation that critiques the next generation because they see the world different. Kids from today probably will be the ones communicating through brainwaves with the IoT or similar; a more efficient and higher throughput interface. Yes, it's important to learn how to use pencil and paper and how to type faster on a keyboard but move on. I actually find it cumbersome to write on a keyboard on the phone, but also I feel that everything else is slow, interfaces are cumbersome, unintuitive and mostly just stupid. If I search for a path on google maps, from point A to point B in a different country than I am now, and I forget to switch to car instead of public transport, then I don't get any result. And I am like how the fuck there is no path since there is an obvious big street over there, in the middle of the screen. Oh there is a small icon somewhere to switch the type of transport from public transport to car. What if they would check there are no results and suggest to change the transport type? Thanks for rounding the corners of the search bar, it makes a great difference. Let me rant about search and reaching for an app on any OS. I have 120 apps on my iPhone 8, I use 5-6 everyday let's say. But once in a while I want to open an app that I don't know where it is because I don't use it often. I know how is called because is a well-known app and has the same name with their service or business or whole company. I use the search functionality on iOS, swipe down type 3 letters, wait, wait, fucking wait 2 seconds to get the results. It should be lightning fast, there are 120 strings to search through why the hell it takes so long. Oh, I typed last letter wrong, delete it, results are refreshing, write the correct one, wait again for results. If I notice the lack of motion or changes then is too slow. You will say that I can organize things in folders, after 3 months, oh is that app that connects to the camera in photos folder, utils, connectivity or "not often". Who cares? I know how the app is called, I can search for it, why is it slow? Huge props for the fact that the text box gets focused when swiping down and I don't have to ("click?") touch on it to focus. There are just 2 examples, but I use apps on my phone everyday, I search for public transport on my phone every weekend, multiple times a day. Why focus on making the 3 dots for settings as 3 dots instead of 3 lines from the burger icon? It's still unintuitive and the rest of the app is unintuitive. I could rant for weeks about other features or functionalities, on any platform you want. God bless autocomplete! Stop whining about small things, see the bigger context, meet people where they are going, understand their intentions, maker super usual tasks extremely easy and stop being stubborn. You will move on or other will move past you, sooner or later, worst case you will pass with your idea. Context: I am working as a programmer full-time, participated for a long time in high school and university in algorithmic contests. I had multiple computers and used different OS-es. I am confortable with the CLI and I have a decent understanding how things work on the internet, what happens on multiple layers from when you type in your browser URL bar to when you see the website.
mnl 8y ago
I've met (teaching) too many teens that can't really use a computer. The procedural and hierarchical structure abstractions, even the desktop metaphor is lost on them. Idk if there's much of a future for widespread general purpose computing. The situation is understandable, as it's way more difficult to get the gist of how your system works nowadays than 20-30 years ago, and they're really using mobile paradigms that don't expect you to think about it, but I don't think it's a good prospect.
crispytx 8y ago
I've noticed this at theCoderSchool where I teach kids to code. The majority of the kids can't type.
phantom_oracle 8y ago
I'm going to go against the grain that is advocating for "keyboards are better" and say that maybe the touchscreen can be a gateway to a more efficient method of rendering text to a screen vs. a keyboard. Keyboards suck and cause your hands to be in an unnatural position for a long time.
- Double_a_92 8y ago
  The keyboard gives me the ability to directly "link" my mind to the text field. I don't have to actively type, just think about what I want to say. I couldn't achieve that with a touch screen yet.
jccalhoun 8y ago
This is one reason why Apple will either have to eventually cave in and make laptops with touchscreens or just give up and just make ipads (I supposed they could say they will just make both so consumers can choose). They are teaching a generation of people to touch their screen. I see my college students using the touchscreen on their windows laptops all the time (I hardly ever use the touchscreen on my laptop). It is only a matter of time before noting having a touchscreen on a laptop will be seen as a serious deficiency in the eyes of consumers.
- dbg31415 8y ago
  Just a side note... man, the number of people who touch monitors is way too high. Keep your grubby fingers off my monitor.
  - kart23 8y ago
    Ugh, even other peoples screens. Like seeing a macbook screen covered in fingerprints and oil is just the most disgusting thing ever.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
qwerty456127 8y ago
I'm just curious how is the smartphone generation going to write code...
danso 8y ago
Back in 2011, Dan Russell (search researcher at Google) found that as much as 90% of typical computer users did not know how to use Ctrl-F to find something on a webpage. Since then, I imagine the overall percentage has gotten worse, what with Find in Page being more or less buried: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/08/crazy-90-percent-of-people-dont-know-how-to-use-ctrl-f/243840/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/08/crazy...
Mistri 8y ago
I'm in high school. I know how to double click, I know how to work with excel spreadsheets. I plan to pursue a CS degree and eventually get an engineering job in the future. Heck, I even read Hacker News. Yes, us teens are on our smartphones a lot, but the majority of us know how to use computers... this article is pretty misleading.
- kart23 8y ago
  We're not talking about the minority of kids here. Yes, there are tons of other teens like you who code and use computers. But look at the majority of younger kids at your school. What devices are they on?
codedokode 8y ago
Smartphones are easier to use. One only has to remember how to scroll and how to use an app store. Compared to them, PCs are much more difficult to use: they have windows, taskbars, file browsers, right and double clicks, and often don't have a sane browser preinstalled. Installing software on a PC is complicated and it is easy to download a virus instead of Flash Player. Often external devices don't work without drivers. As desktop OS don't have proper process isolation, one usually has to use an antivirus. Also, smartphones have physical volume keys and sleep/wakeup much faster than PC. And PCs still don't have dedicated keys to switch input languages. But typing on a smartphone is a hell. I always make mistakes and hit the wrong button.
ac130kz 8y ago
IMHO 10 finger typing technique should be taught at schools just like hand-writting
Double_a_92 8y ago
It's too real. My niece once told me that she doesn't like using Word on her Laptop because it's better on the iPad... Because they keyboard is more like on her smartphone there. I was like "WTF" internally... And she's writing her first CV and application letters like that.
alenmilk 8y ago
Hello computer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9kTVZiJ3Uc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9kTVZiJ3Uc
lesss365 8y ago
About two years ago, while carrying out user testing at Hunter College on a prototype for their site redesign/build (yet to be implemented due to bureaucracy...), we observed several test users default to tapping on the laptop screen to navigate. For that round the test users were students, and the ones who defaulted to tapping were of a younger age. Even after making the initial realization that the screen didn't have touch capabilities, every few moments they would still touch the screen in an attempt to tap navigation elements or to scroll a page. Personally, it was kind of a shock to witness, especially seeing that it was safe to assume that there was less than a 10 year difference in our ages. It got me thinking about a near future possibility of keyboardless computers, and the dread of writing code without one. Though it's unlikely, it struck the fear of god in me haha
izzydata 8y ago
I wish my ability to type at 150 WPM was a more marketable skill. It seems mostly irrelevant as anyone who can type above 50 WPM is good enough for 99% of situations.
yfp 8y ago
I’m a Japanese young engineer and same generation. I've encountered a similar situation. There were many colleagues of the company who don't know copy and paste and so on. It seemed Kanji problem in comments, but young people can type Kanji exactly, on rather, they don't know how to use computer like double click, where is power button etc. Also, Japanese IT companies hire new employees don't have CS degrees. They hire people in all of major. It may be a problem with hiring method.
BrandoElFollito 8y ago
Maybe this is the case in Japan. It is certainly not true in Europe. People use keyboards all the time and submitting anything beyond basic on a smartphone does not happen here. I was at our local library recently, during the time students were preparing for exams. Everyone had z phone to check messages. Almost everyone had a laptop. I did not see a single tablet.

432 points by paralelogram 8y ago

I mostly hate tactile-less devices, fingers and eyes are nicely decoupled, and now I'm forced to focus on my smartphone. But recently I tried typing on android keyboard with all fingers. It's hard (no tactile delimitation or confirmation) but doable. I wonder if kids these days consider this as normal pro use of smartphones. Basically cultural relativity.

SQL2219 8y ago

This is similar to the stereotype of: young people are good with computers. Browsing Instagram is not the same as creating value through programming and complex problem solving.

NullPrefix 8y ago
Watching TV makes you good with RF.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  Watching TV in the 50s made you good with knob adjustment and basic electronics maintenance, just because things tended to break and also tended to break in fixable ways. The same thing is true today, kids that play Minecraft aren't getting any better with computers by clicking on blocks, they are getting better by doing the things necessary to keep the blocks there in front of them (because if you want to install mods or run a server for your friends for example Minecraft becomes about as reliable as an early TV).
  - userbinator 8y ago
    Watching TV in the 50s made you good with knob adjustment and basic electronics maintenance, just because things tended to break and also tended to break in fixable ways. In particular, tube replacement was pretty common DIY and even nonspecialist corner stores would sell tubes and have self-service testers: http://travelphotobase.com/v/USOK/OKCH66.HTM http://travelphotobase.com/v/USOK/OKCH66.HTM In similar analogy, I wonder how many people today know how to replace a lightbulb and will do it themselves, and what that would be like in a few decades...
    - whatshisface 8y ago
      Embedded computers have done a lot to ruin automotive DIY. Someone should write a short story where nobody can change their low-failure-rate LED light bulbs without calling a technician who has a programmer card with the right IoT private keys. Electric utilities are no longer common-carier and underground cyberpunk "Edisons" fabricate incandscents that disguise themselves as toasters on the grid in order to circumvent the expensive licensing deals between lightbulb manufacturers and power companies.
strken 8y ago
I've always felt that young people are seen as good with computers because they're more confident and less afraid of failure, and that even if their only experience is instagram they're more likely to google a scary error message or click around at random in various menus.
- some_account 8y ago
  It's because old timers are much more afraid to look bad since you are "supposed" to live up to that external image you put on LinkedIn. :)
- megaman22 8y ago
  I'm not sure that that is the case, any longer. I have a lot of trouble with our college-aged interns, because they will barely make an effort to try doing something before getting stonewalled and bailing out to go ask someone to do it for them. Sometimes I just want to yell at them to run the code and see what happens, and then try to figure out why what happened happened. And these are computer science majors.
  - LyndsySimon 8y ago
    Maybe they need someone to yell at them to break them out of their comfort zone and learn something new. They might find they enjoy it or even that they’re good at it once they do it. It’s human nature to feel like the next generation is coddled, of course. Maybe the real problem is that the current generation isn’t as capable of instruction as previous ones.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > doing something before getting stonewalled and bailing out to go ask someone to do it for them Funny this is the problem. One of my major life lessons was learning not to always persevere, and to ask for help as soon as possible. Solves more problems faster, teaches you more ways of looking at a problem and smoothly scales to delegation.
    - 8y ago
conception 8y ago
Likewise with the Japanese living in the land of the future in the 90s-00's. I found there that people having access to tech was much much different than being technical. Fancy phones but few personal computers or the skills that go along with them.
gaius 8y ago
The BBC love to divide the population into “digital immigrants” and “digital natives”, always with the subtext that the “natives” are superior. But their so-called journalists can’t even understand that the “digital immigrants” that they sneer at actually built everything and the “natives” are mere consumers
- cm2187 8y ago
  Agree. Though if we think about it, kids who were computer savy in the 90s were certainly more technologically sophisticated than computer savy kids now (when you have to actually install TCP/IP it makes you learn what it is!). But the population of kids with daily access to computers then was much lower than today. So now you have a much bigger base which on average is less technical, but because of its cheer size, there is probably a much greater absolute population of sophisticated kids now than 20y ago.
aaronmdjones 8y ago
Related: http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/ http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-co...
- michaelmrose 8y ago
  I was just about to post this so I guess I'll just upvote this instead.

acutesoftware 8y ago

If you aren't actually creating content [art, software, serious writing, etc] then using a mobile is fine for just consuming and it isn't surprising that these groups don't know how to use a computer. It is sad though, that young people appear to be less computer literate in terms of creating content (as an overall percentage of previous generations).

acct1771 8y ago
Less literate in terms of creating anything.
- dsego 8y ago
  Probably because there is an abundance of creative work around us, so there is less incentive to be creative yourself.
  - ganzuul 8y ago
    Creative-commercial and creative-inspired are very different things. If all you ever experience is the uninspired stuff you might not have much faith in art.
- bachbach 8y ago
  I agree and I'm in this group. I blame the duration of modern education. It has made newer generations less flexible. Institutionalization. It's a paradox because the Internet has made the pollination of ideas more likely - but we are less likely to do new things, we stay in our boxes. This shows up in the productivity and entrepreneurship statistics. It may be true that wages are poor and rents are high - but also we're really not helping ourselves. Rates of self built homes should be increasing among young people but I don't see that. Usually over the years a generation gets richer but I suspect many young people with 'careers' are waiting for a golden goose. If you are aged > 30 and rent in a major city and earn less than 40k-60k per year - you need to wake up and get out before you become a poor middle aged person. Most people my age from university are living like students a decade after leaving the university. Having to live with your parents or live in a house share cannot be half your adult life if you have a successful career, nor can forking most of your income over to a landlord. HN's residents are an anomaly in the broader economy and their experience is alien to most of their generation.

sexydefinesher 8y ago

Cant say i feel sorry for the people who chose to be enslaved to interfaces. Information technology will continue to expand into human life more and more, whether you are prepared or not.

FactolSarin 8y ago
In my experience with kids, it's not a choice. It's mostly poor kids who have this problem. Their family doesn't have a PC, and an old/cheap smartphone is the way they access the Internet.
- mikebelanger 8y ago
  Yeah definitely. A phone is considered much more necessary for basic functioning in a modern society - whereas the computer is a little 'extra'. Naturally poorer people only invest in the more basic, cheaper thing. I believe projects like Raspberry Pi were attempts to mitigate this issue too. Hopefully they gain more traction in society at large.
  - walshemj 8y ago
    Well that's some of what it's doing now but originally it was for A Level students to get real experience in the two years of school before they went to university. And A level students in STEM subjects are not typically from poor backgrounds.
- dorchadas 8y ago
  I disagree with this. I work as a teacher at a secondary school. Even the wealthier kids, the ones who I know have computers at home, and often their own laptops that they bring to school, can't use a keyboard to save their life. They're always impressed at how fast I can type (I learned from playing MUDs way too much when I was their age) without errors and how I know all the keyboard shortcuts and such.

nickserv 8y ago

Do your children a favor and get them a "real" computer with keyboard and mouse, instead of a tablet. I've found it helps with several things. For one, I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Also, learning to use a keyboard while learning the alphabet seems like a virtuous cycle, at least in my personal experiences. And it may sound old fashioned, but making things too easy for kids makes them less independent and less willing to put in the effort required for learning. Compare for example searching for animal pictures using voice search versus going to the search engine, typing out the term, clicking on "images"... The first is much easier and teaches instant gratification, while the second teaches perseverance and comes with a greater sense of accomplishment. Disclaimer: purely anecdotal, take the preceding with a salt shaker...

21 8y ago
> I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Why do you think this is a bad think? This is how kids learn how the world works, by trying the same thing in different contexts, like how small children put everything in their mouth. We don't criticize that, it's part of learning. > Compare for example searching for animal pictures using voice search versus going to the search engine, typing out the term, clicking on "images" I don't know, when I was a kid I was searching for animal pictures by opening an atlas picture book. Was it better, did I became smarter because I did this this instead of using Google or a voice search? I don't think that making information access easier is ever a bad think.
- codingdave 8y ago
  It depends on the age of the child. A toddler who is still exploring the world is one thing. A 14 year old who swipes at a book is a problem. (I don't know the age of the children from these anecdotes.) On the other hand, a toddler who explores the world as if it is a touch screen has been given way too much time on a touch screen. So there is definitely a problem there.

dooglius 8y ago

>Given that they can write and submit their school reports with smartphones Would students really do this? I couldn't imagine trying to write an entire essay or a lab report on a smartphone. Maybe Japanese schools don't have to turn in longer things like that?

sourceless 8y ago
I mean, if you grew up with phone keyboard as your main method of text entry, this might be normal to you.
tiatia123 8y ago
Yes.
crazygringo 8y ago
As someone who recently worked in education... yes. Anecdotally, I tended to see it at the community-college level with students who owned a large-screen phone and didn't own a computer. I don't think anyone is writing whole research papers or serious lab reports on phones. A two-page reading response is totally doable. Something with footnotes or equations, not so much.
- ssivark 8y ago
  Yes, one can technically vomit out a few hundred words using a small touch screen. But the tools make it damn difficult to edit and re-organize text. Does this mean that all such reports are basically stream-of-consciousness writing instead of a more carefully polished piece of work?
  - innocenat 8y ago
    It's not hard to edit & reorganised with larger screen smartphone at all.
    - messe 8y ago
      It seems like it would be more awkward than with a mouse+keyboard controlled text editor, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I'd love to get better with working with touchscreens, but I haven't seen any way of getting the composability I've become accustomed to on the *nix command line and associated editors (be it vim, emacs or even the monoliths of atom and vscode).

analog31 8y ago

When I look at computer interfaces, I'm drawn back to the (probably mythical) story of the QWERTY keyboard, that it was designed to slow us down because our brains are faster than the mechanism of the typewriter. The modern GUI could be interpreted in that way too: Forcing us to direct the computer through a series of painfully discrete steps, to camouflage the fact that it can't interpret natural language. I've seen kids type on their phones, faster than I can type on a QWERTY keyboard. So, give them a phone that mimics a wireless keyboard and let them use it to interact with a bigger computer. As for learning things like Excel, the sad part is not that they haven't been taught the mechanical skills, but that those tools could enrich their K-12 education, e.g., in math and science class.

rustcharm 8y ago
Here's a take on QWERTY (probably not designed to slow us down) on the Smithsonian website: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-fiction-the-legend-of-the-qwerty-keyboard-49863249/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-fiction-...
goda90 8y ago
QWERTY was invented to move letters that were often close to each other in words to be further apart on the keyboard so as to prevent jams when two keys were pressed at once on a typewriter.
- rustcharm 8y ago
  https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-fiction-the-legend-of-the-qwerty-keyboard-49863249/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-fiction-...

zorkw4rg 8y ago

I always thought the idea of the digital divide never went far enough. If you look at the work performed by regular people on a daily basis using computers and the work performed by skilled software engineers there is such an absurd level of difference in efficiency. Its no wonder that AI will replace most jobs people do. AI will not be able to make those people more efficient, it will replace them. AI can't help them to be more efficient since they don't know how to think on any fundamental level. > “Everybody in this country should learn to program a computer, because it teaches you how to think” - Steve Jobs

donretag 8y ago

In the meantime, services like Venmo are becoming mobile only since the majority of users only use the mobile app (so they say). Many new startup ideas are mobile-first since that is where their user base is.

curun1r 8y ago
> Many new startup ideas are mobile-first since that is where their user base is The main reason it's smart to go mobile first is the transition from mobile to desktop is significantly easier than going from desktop to mobile. It's very easy to design a desktop product that's almost impossible to make mobile and almost impossible to do the opposite.

gaius 8y ago

they can write and submit their school reports with smartphones I can only imagine these reports must be completely trivial if they can be written without the use of a keyboard. Standards aren’t slipping they say...

imron 8y ago

> Young people who can’t use keyboards How is this different from previous generations? The examples listed (not knowing how to use a keyboard, not knowing how to double click and not knowing what a 'cell' in a spreadsheet is) were all extremely common among my classmates back in highschool (and this is talking about the 90's here, so computers were in fairly widespread use at this point). The new digital divide is just like the old one.

hocuspocus 8y ago
In the 2000's I had to write physics and chemistry lab reports, typically 4-5 pages long, with enough formulas that I ended up ditching Word and MathType for some basic LaTeX. In maths I had to write Excel macros and Mathematica scripts. I know that education in Japan is probably a bit more disconnected from reality compared to the pragmatism we see here, but still, the goal of high-school is to prepare students for college no?
- dorchadas 8y ago
  > but still, the goal of high-school is to prepare students for college no It depends on who you ask. In the school I work at, in the Rural South in America, many parents and students say the goal of high school should be to teach the students how to do a competent job and take care of themselves after school. So they complain about having to learn Algebra II and other "useless" stuff, while they don't even know how loans and interest and debt and such works. Or how to book a hotel, things like that. School has, basically, become expected to teach students both job training and basic life skills that, a few generations ago, parents and companies would have explained. It's become basically free training, and, honestly, it defeats the purpose of education; universities are the same way.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    It depends on who you ask because school serves different purposes for different people. School is a service that someone can use as part of their education.
8y ago

deleted 8y ago

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euske 8y ago

I've seen this claim over and over, and failed to see how this is a big deal. Most people in Japan in 80s couldn't type either. (An English typewriter wasn't something that most people would use or own.) Even if kids can't type, I bet they would learn typing faster than the kids 30 years ago. Sounds like a fuss about nothing.

wallflower 8y ago

Having volunteered to teach kids coming from single-parent household with no computer at home, I've seen how the inability to type on a QWERTY keyboard with any modicum of speed (hunt-and-peck) actually limits them when we encourage them to 'iterate', 'try fast and fail', 'just code a line of something', or 'what will that do?'. If expressing your thoughts and intentions to the editor is painful and slow, it is a concrete barrier to learning how to fail faster. Forgot teaching kids how to code right away , teach them how to type first so they can "commune" with the machine (ideally with ergonomics and whole arm movement in mind so RSI is not an issue).

colanderman 8y ago
Specifically I would suggest to let them learn to type themselves, rather than following some program. (I.e., don't teach home-row typing.) I taught myself to type when I was 5 or 6, and type with wrists straight (so, at an angle to each other), hands in no fixed location, and both hands sharing duty for several keys. I credit this with my freedom from keyboard-related RSI even after 28 years of typing. (I have had mouse-related RSI. Mice cause grip issues.) Better still is to give them a real keyboard, i.e. one with key travel, not a crappy laptop keyboard. I learned on an Apple II, plenty of key travel. Typing on a MacBook over the course of three recent years nearly destroyed my typing ability due to what I can only describe as something like the yips. Switching back to a real keyboard has helped.
- egypturnash 8y ago
  I think there's something to this. I can type with a pretty decent speed if I look down at the keys now and then; my hands float around the keyboard and mostly hit keys with the first two fingers on either hand, with the occasional left pinky for a modifier and right thumb for space. I have tried to Learn To Touch Type multiple times in my life and every single time I could feel my wrists starting to ache from holding them close together and angled. Dealing with that's just not worth the increased speed and ability to never look at the keyboard that touch-typing would give me.
scarface74 8y ago

redleggedfrog 8y ago

"However, much of this does not align with the knowledge necessary to work in their future jobs." This is not a problem. If they're not smart enough to realize they are deficient in necessary skills for future personal prosperity then I probably don't want to hire them for my company anyway. And if for some reason I do, then they better damned well learn how to type in a hurry. It's not the most difficult skill. Do you know where the real problem is with the damned smart phones and not knowing how to type and do your job? Managers. We've got a world full of people supposed to be managing and instead they're spending their time texting unintelligible and incomplete crap to their employees while they gallivant around. WTF happened to actually working?!

jdietrich 8y ago

It's worth bearing in mind that the source is Japanese. All input methods for the Japanese language are a compromise. Inputting kanji on a physical keyboard is nowhere near as fluid as inputting Latin characters - you're constantly toggling between inputting kana and selecting the kanji options presented by the IME. The prediction and correction technologies of smartphone keyboards are a very good match for kanji and hànzì input. As a second-language user of Chinese, I find it considerably faster and easier to input hànzì on a smartphone than with a physical keyboard. The context switching between inputting pīnyīn and selecting hànzì is much less expensive when the hànzì are presented directly above the on-screen keyboard. The prediction and correction algorithms seem to be far more intelligent on mobile, which largely compensates for the slower and more error-prone tactile experience. It is my understanding that most young Japanese people prefer the flick input method, which is a refinement of the old keitai input method used on featurephones with numeric keypads; they are often startlingly quick at using this method, but it poses a far higher switching cost when moving to a QWERTY-derived physical keyboard. I find it entirely plausible that the flick method could simply be inherently superior. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V-za9LT_30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V-za9LT_30

natch 8y ago
On a tangent here but curious, if you know: what's the closest input method you can get to flick for Chinese? I realize the languages are quite different (might be botching this, but my fuzzy understanding for Japanese is it has kanji+katakana+kana+romaji, where Chinese has only hanzi + pinyin|zhuyin/etc.) Do you think flick is compatible with Chinese?
- emodendroket 8y ago
  They don't have that. They do have handwriting recognition.
  - natch 8y ago
    Well the question was what do they have that comes closest. They do have a lot more than just pinyin and handwriting. If you don't know, it's fine to just say that, or stay away from the discussion, especially when you seem to be answering with such certainty on something where you didn't read the question.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

gameswithgo 8y ago

I've seen this phenomenon while teaching a teenager programming (in america). He had no problem typing letters, but when it came to symbols like $ % [ ( etc, it took him forever to find them. It makes sense as modern computers don't require that you edit autoexec.bat files to get a game running and he is probably mostly on a phone or tablet anyway. But I was surprised!

13years 8y ago

I didn't introduce anything electronic to my son until he was about 7. I then told him, he wouldn't be allowed to use a computer until he learns to type first. One year later, he was typing over 100 wpm. Now a teenager, he types about 130wpm. He started with a basic online course to learn the proper technique. Then afterward, he started playing an online game called nitrotype. Which made learning to type fast enjoyable.

jkabrg 8y ago

I still prefer pencil and paper. I find it's the least limiting because you can draw anything, the easiest to use because you don't have to learn a GUI or a language, and the fastest -- yet software people will still wonder how they can GREP it. Another contra is legibility and possibly aesthetics.

kibwen 8y ago

I'm confused here. The article implies that kids aren't learning how to type because they don't have access to a PC at home. But for the majority of the history of computing, it was the case that most people wouldn't have had access to a PC at home as children. My parents learned to type on typewriters at college. I had a mandatory class entirely dedicated to typing in middle school. Have schools stopped offering computer classes, assuming that kids already know how to use them from their experience at home? If so, then that sounds like a problem all on its own given that poorer households might not have had a computer even during the PC golden age.

jedberg 8y ago
> Have schools stopped offering computer classes, Many have stopped or at least severely cut back > assuming that kids already know how to use them from their experience at home? Partly this and partly budget cuts. Computer skills aren't on the standardized tests, so they are a "waste of time" like art and music and history and everything else that isn't on the test. So they are deemphasized. Some schools with money for computers and a computer teacher will at least try to integrate it into their language instruction by doing exercises on the computer.
protomyth 8y ago
Typing class and most computer classes are long gone. One of the problems with dedicated computer class is it has most of the characteristics of a vocational class. You need a dedicated teacher, a special room, and special equipment. At least shop classes don't need many updates to the equipment. Computers are now a resource, and most kids get minimum instruction (just enough to type papers or use the educational programs).
cup-of-tea 8y ago
Some of my teachers knew how to touch type. We were never taught. Nowadays I work with people who type with two fingers. I'm 30 and live in the UK. The ball has been dropped on computer skills. Anyone can say they "know Microsoft Office" but they won't be tested on it and nobody ever talks about typing as a skill.

nimbius 8y ago

as a blue collar engine tech, I dont think you can segment the part of the population that cant use a keyboard into old/young. I know plenty of people within my age that freeze up trying to type in something as simple as a first name. I work with veterans that cant search for a part number, or a make/model of a vehicle without pausing 5 seconds between keys. My typing speed is great, but its because I got into Linux and programming. The largest determination of your typing ability is whether you spend most of the day with your hands on a wrench or your fingers on a keyboard.

paulryanrogers 8y ago

During the fourth grade we were taught to type on keyboards, but only as one part of a computer class. I forgot how soon after. Once I got interested in PC gaming I learned to hunt and peck quicky, program batch files, and use macros. Then I got a computer science degree and worked for almost two years as a programmer; typing by staring at keys using two fingers. When the time came it didn't take long to relearn 'proper' typing. For some kids a little exposure to fundamentals at the right time is enough. And there is more to computing than input technique. So long as the kids are interested and motivated nature will find a way.

btschaegg 8y ago

An interesting part in the article: > Lena-Sophie Mueller, of the German nonprofit Initiative D21, pointed out: “Timetables (for railways) are no longer available in paper form. More and more services are based on the Internet [...]” This has been going on for quite a while. I distinctly remember being stranded in Düsseldorf a few years back. I was at the train station, looking for a train (I knew the destination but not which train I had to take). It was very late and since the roaming costs were horrendous (around 15 € per MB, I think), I had deactivated all mobile data on my phone. I searched more or less the whole train station, failing to find some printed plan that told me which train to pick. You could see where the plans used to be, but they had all been removed. Luckily, a lonely waffle vendor still was around and helped me out with his iPhone. I found a line/station map later on -- inside the train in question. How anyone can come to the conclusion that this is the place to look, is beyond me.

j605 8y ago
Usually there are kiosks near the ticket machines or you could just ask people at the counter. Ironically I always check the printed/local displays since the online versions have no guarantee.
Double_a_92 8y ago
All the stations I've been to have digital displays with all the trains in the next hours.
- btschaegg 8y ago
  Remember that this is anecdata at best :) I've been to Stuttgart recently and had no such problems at the train station there. I just wanted to point out that this phenomenon is not all that new.

dghughes 8y ago

My mother told me she saw a baby using a smartphone. He was swiping, typing, zooming etc.. The mother of the baby said he was 16 months old. So I can believe in a few years kids will grow up used to smooth phone/tablet type keyboards and not the physical type.

apozem 8y ago

I have never not had access to a desktop PC, but what about people who can't afford one? Say a poor family has $100 to spend on a kid. They're going to get a phone every time. I could definitely see a poor kid only grow up on mobile devices. Related story: My college roommate studied accounting and one of the first classes they made him take was remedial computing. Here's how Excel works, use alt-tab to switch windows, that kind of thing. I thought the class sounded dumb but maybe it's necessary.

rb808 8y ago

I don't think this is a US problem. Elementary school in US commonly uses computers a lot. My children had typing lessons in 1-3 grade, and standardized tests (both math and language arts) are done on a pc/chromebook where you're expected to type.

EamonnMR 8y ago

As I see mobile eat desktop, I worry that we loose computers as a tool for creativity and end up with computers as purely communication and consumption aids.

matz1 8y ago

The world are always evolving. Nothing sad about this. This is like saying young people can't use abacus anymore. These new generation of young people will grow up and with new kind of input method or paradigim. Who knows maybe the traditional way of programming with keyboard will evolve to something completely different for the next generation of people.

arnaudsm 8y ago
There are strong implications to this change. PCs are (almost) open platforms, with control, and oriented to create content. While Phones are closed, made for content consumption, and frequently don't even have a file browser.
posting2fast 8y ago
As a CCC speaker said [0], the window of people having seen both, of having seen the basic and simple beginnings, and who even have the option of understanding how it all works together, is very small. The people who get born now just get handed a little glowing brick they swipe around on. They need to be teached what that thing is, so that they [and those that come after them] don't just wander about the planet with these little magical boards, with all power resting with those that program these restricted devices for them. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg7snecRoMs&t=43m35s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg7snecRoMs&t=43m35s You're not more progressive if you slide back from the above, just because the date in the calendar has increased. You're certainly not more progressive if you can't slide back from it because you haven't even realized it yet. If a majority of people follows a pied piper into a mountain, then a majority of people will be lost. It will not magically transform a trap, a dead end, into "the new way forward". You're just demonstrating how completely oblivious, and how recklessly bold because of it, so many are. Last but not least, with "evolution" come watershed moments, it's not just smooth sailing from peak to peak -- that's a movie, not evolution. > If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them. -- George Orwell That is all that matters. You can write well with a touch screen, you can write badly with a keyboard. But to the degree things get reduced to references or icons, thought does end up suffering.
TangoTrotFox 8y ago

zencash 8y ago

I think it will take time, keyboard, when first encounters can be hard to use, saying that, younger people these days have access to a keyboard almost 24/7 whether it be iPads or mobiles that they use. I'd like to see how kids of this generation can manage using a franking machine [1] or even a photocopier. Our currently generation 25-40 used floppy disks at some point, now it's just an icon on your software suite [2]. Will this be the case for keyboard in 10 years time? Will the physical version be needed? [1] https://frankingmachinecompare.co.uk/what-is-franking-machine-used-for/ https://frankingmachinecompare.co.uk/what-is-franking-machin... [2] https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheFloppyDiskMeansSaveAnd14OtherOldPeopleIconsThatDontMakeSenseAnymore.aspx https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheFloppyDiskMeansSaveAnd14Ot...

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> now it's just an icon on your software suite I’m trying to remember the last time I saw this icon. Either what I’m working on has “save” as text, is constantly auto-saved or requires Ctrl-S.
- zencash 8y ago
  I guess this is true too, we're moving so fast with software. A few programes here and there do still utilize a floppy disk as a mark to save something though.
michaelmrose 8y ago
An actual screen and keyboard are inherently useful regardless of which form factor device its connected to. 10 years time is way to short a time for this to cease being so.

Havoc 8y ago

People write reports on smartphones? Everyone around me can def use a keyboard. Not ten finger touch type but near enough

zcdziura 8y ago
This article talks primarily about people from Japan, whose script I imagine is much easier and faster to enter via a smartphone.
jccalhoun 8y ago
I've had college students write essays on their phone. Insanity.

falcor84 8y ago

The first example provided in the article (indeed the first sentence) is “How do I double click?”, and I want to focus on this. As a kid in the 90s, I just took double clicking as a necessary evil. But after many many opportunities of trying (mostly successfully) to teach it to both the elderly and to kids, I've gradually grown to hate it. It's such a horrible gesture, difficult to perform, complicated to reason about and entirely disconnected from any real-world metaphor. May double clicking die off and vanish, never to be found again, except for in the annals of bad ideas.

cm2187 8y ago
That being said my mum has been using actual computers for 20 years now (without understanding more than just what she needs), and she double-clicks on everything, even when a single-click should apply. “It works that way”. True.
- pnloyd 8y ago
  Wouldnt work for something that toggled on a single click.. e.g checkbox
ldjb 8y ago
I often encounter people having issues double-clicking. Actually, a lot of people have trouble just single-clicking, so double-clicking is even more of a challenge. A lot of people just can't get the knack for clicking twice in quick succession. And the inconsistency between when they should single-click and when they should double-click causes a lot of confusion. I think it probably would make life easier to get rid of the double-click.
- kashyapc 8y ago
  The other week my Dutch language teacher (he's ~55) wrote an email "I would like to try Linux, can you please assist?" after learning about what is open source and libre software. I was pleasantly surprised to receive his email. So last week I went to install Fedora 28 on his new laptop. It all went smoothly. No, that's a lie; I had to do a little scary command-line surgery while he watched me do it (and heard me assure he doesn't need to do anything like that). I set up all the requisite things, and since it was his first time, we went through a few common desktop workflows tailored to his needs. There I noticed: he was single-clicking where he needed to double-click—e.g. while opening a directory. I briefly explained the differences between the two and we tried again. He got better, but still struggled. I biked back home wondering if he'll continue to struggle with the double-click. :-(

catchmeifyoucan 8y ago

I can confirm this. My brother is in high school and their school uses ipads religiously to submit work, handle slide decks and do quizzes. At his age, I had a typing speed of ~40-50WPM, he can barely do 30, with a lower accuracy (spellcheck subtly saving him). No proper typing form either because touchscreen devices are really just one finger-based. This definitely exists.

xkcdefgh 8y ago

Looking at the context, it seemss like it's the keyboard that needs to evolve for these languages. I can't fathom anyone writing a school report on a smartphone in english

konart 8y ago

>“How do I double click?” “What is a cell in a spreadsheet?” >it is not uncommon for even would-be system engineers to ask such questions. How the hell is it even possible?

ezoe 8y ago

This situation is not caused by complicated Japanese input methods. This is caused by young generation who don't use traditional computer with the keyboard. It's another digital divide. Yes. The generation who didn't have a personal computer in their young age is starting to retire. Current 30s-40s years old workers are varies on computer literacy but many had a personal computer when they were a student. I belong to this generation. I was hoping that the next generation will be completely digital native and all of them has computer literacy. Just laugh us and obliterate us from work force for we can't stand a chance against such a gifted digital native generation at birth. Just like we get rid of those annoying old people who don't have a computer literacy. The invention of smartphone make that dream not happens. The smartphone makes people stupid. There is nothing smart about that computer. The smartphone is inefficient and restricted computer. You don't have a freedom to choose the OS. You don't even have a root access to that very computer you own. It doesn't have a keyboard which is the most efficient input device for text. The smartphone is designed for reading the text, not for writing. So the young generation starting to lose the ability to write the text. What makes me surprise is, that current students use the smartphone to read the papers, to write the necessary essay and reports necessary for graduation. The fresh young generations who has just graduated enter the working class without learning how to use the keyboard. But the real work which involve a lot of text writing requires efficient input device such as the keyboard. So the current trending of smartphone reduce the effective good workers from already reducing younger population in Japan. I refuse to own a phone. Smartphone is the worst invention of our time. It disrupt attention, reduce computer literacy, or even plain literacy for it makes harder to write the text for most of them.

griffordson 8y ago
What percentage of PC users has ever installed an OS of any kind, ever?
- pnloyd 8y ago
  Well there are a ton of gamers who like building there own machines so I imagine it's higher then you'd think. R/pcmasterrace has 1.5 million subscribers, and that's mostly from English speaking populations.

rocky1138 8y ago

They don't teach touch-typing in school anymore? It's really surprising and disheartening, if so.

snegrus 8y ago

I understand the issue described in the article, but I don't understand why people from this thread are so obfuscated about smartphones, teens not using physical keyboards or babies using smartphones better than they keep their own balance on 2 feet. We were drawing with blood in caves, we were scratching stones with other stones, we were sculpting symbols on walls in Egypt, we started writing on papyrus, then paper, then started using typewriters, then physical keyboards and now virtual keyboards. Don't act like the generation that critiques the next generation because they see the world different. Kids from today probably will be the ones communicating through brainwaves with the IoT or similar; a more efficient and higher throughput interface. Yes, it's important to learn how to use pencil and paper and how to type faster on a keyboard but move on. I actually find it cumbersome to write on a keyboard on the phone, but also I feel that everything else is slow, interfaces are cumbersome, unintuitive and mostly just stupid. If I search for a path on google maps, from point A to point B in a different country than I am now, and I forget to switch to car instead of public transport, then I don't get any result. And I am like how the fuck there is no path since there is an obvious big street over there, in the middle of the screen. Oh there is a small icon somewhere to switch the type of transport from public transport to car. What if they would check there are no results and suggest to change the transport type? Thanks for rounding the corners of the search bar, it makes a great difference. Let me rant about search and reaching for an app on any OS. I have 120 apps on my iPhone 8, I use 5-6 everyday let's say. But once in a while I want to open an app that I don't know where it is because I don't use it often. I know how is called because is a well-known app and has the same name with their service or business or whole company. I use the search functionality on iOS, swipe down type 3 letters, wait, wait, fucking wait 2 seconds to get the results. It should be lightning fast, there are 120 strings to search through why the hell it takes so long. Oh, I typed last letter wrong, delete it, results are refreshing, write the correct one, wait again for results. If I notice the lack of motion or changes then is too slow. You will say that I can organize things in folders, after 3 months, oh is that app that connects to the camera in photos folder, utils, connectivity or "not often". Who cares? I know how the app is called, I can search for it, why is it slow? Huge props for the fact that the text box gets focused when swiping down and I don't have to ("click?") touch on it to focus. There are just 2 examples, but I use apps on my phone everyday, I search for public transport on my phone every weekend, multiple times a day. Why focus on making the 3 dots for settings as 3 dots instead of 3 lines from the burger icon? It's still unintuitive and the rest of the app is unintuitive. I could rant for weeks about other features or functionalities, on any platform you want. God bless autocomplete! Stop whining about small things, see the bigger context, meet people where they are going, understand their intentions, maker super usual tasks extremely easy and stop being stubborn. You will move on or other will move past you, sooner or later, worst case you will pass with your idea. Context: I am working as a programmer full-time, participated for a long time in high school and university in algorithmic contests. I had multiple computers and used different OS-es. I am confortable with the CLI and I have a decent understanding how things work on the internet, what happens on multiple layers from when you type in your browser URL bar to when you see the website.

mnl 8y ago

I've met (teaching) too many teens that can't really use a computer. The procedural and hierarchical structure abstractions, even the desktop metaphor is lost on them. Idk if there's much of a future for widespread general purpose computing. The situation is understandable, as it's way more difficult to get the gist of how your system works nowadays than 20-30 years ago, and they're really using mobile paradigms that don't expect you to think about it, but I don't think it's a good prospect.

crispytx 8y ago

I've noticed this at theCoderSchool where I teach kids to code. The majority of the kids can't type.

phantom_oracle 8y ago

I'm going to go against the grain that is advocating for "keyboards are better" and say that maybe the touchscreen can be a gateway to a more efficient method of rendering text to a screen vs. a keyboard. Keyboards suck and cause your hands to be in an unnatural position for a long time.

Double_a_92 8y ago
The keyboard gives me the ability to directly "link" my mind to the text field. I don't have to actively type, just think about what I want to say. I couldn't achieve that with a touch screen yet.

jccalhoun 8y ago

This is one reason why Apple will either have to eventually cave in and make laptops with touchscreens or just give up and just make ipads (I supposed they could say they will just make both so consumers can choose). They are teaching a generation of people to touch their screen. I see my college students using the touchscreen on their windows laptops all the time (I hardly ever use the touchscreen on my laptop). It is only a matter of time before noting having a touchscreen on a laptop will be seen as a serious deficiency in the eyes of consumers.

dbg31415 8y ago
Just a side note... man, the number of people who touch monitors is way too high. Keep your grubby fingers off my monitor.
- kart23 8y ago
  Ugh, even other peoples screens. Like seeing a macbook screen covered in fingerprints and oil is just the most disgusting thing ever.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

qwerty456127 8y ago

I'm just curious how is the smartphone generation going to write code...

danso 8y ago

Back in 2011, Dan Russell (search researcher at Google) found that as much as 90% of typical computer users did not know how to use Ctrl-F to find something on a webpage. Since then, I imagine the overall percentage has gotten worse, what with Find in Page being more or less buried: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/08/crazy-90-percent-of-people-dont-know-how-to-use-ctrl-f/243840/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/08/crazy...

Mistri 8y ago

I'm in high school. I know how to double click, I know how to work with excel spreadsheets. I plan to pursue a CS degree and eventually get an engineering job in the future. Heck, I even read Hacker News. Yes, us teens are on our smartphones a lot, but the majority of us know how to use computers... this article is pretty misleading.

kart23 8y ago
We're not talking about the minority of kids here. Yes, there are tons of other teens like you who code and use computers. But look at the majority of younger kids at your school. What devices are they on?

codedokode 8y ago

Smartphones are easier to use. One only has to remember how to scroll and how to use an app store. Compared to them, PCs are much more difficult to use: they have windows, taskbars, file browsers, right and double clicks, and often don't have a sane browser preinstalled. Installing software on a PC is complicated and it is easy to download a virus instead of Flash Player. Often external devices don't work without drivers. As desktop OS don't have proper process isolation, one usually has to use an antivirus. Also, smartphones have physical volume keys and sleep/wakeup much faster than PC. And PCs still don't have dedicated keys to switch input languages. But typing on a smartphone is a hell. I always make mistakes and hit the wrong button.

ac130kz 8y ago

IMHO 10 finger typing technique should be taught at schools just like hand-writting

Double_a_92 8y ago

It's too real. My niece once told me that she doesn't like using Word on her Laptop because it's better on the iPad... Because they keyboard is more like on her smartphone there. I was like "WTF" internally... And she's writing her first CV and application letters like that.

alenmilk 8y ago

Hello computer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9kTVZiJ3Uc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9kTVZiJ3Uc

lesss365 8y ago

About two years ago, while carrying out user testing at Hunter College on a prototype for their site redesign/build (yet to be implemented due to bureaucracy...), we observed several test users default to tapping on the laptop screen to navigate. For that round the test users were students, and the ones who defaulted to tapping were of a younger age. Even after making the initial realization that the screen didn't have touch capabilities, every few moments they would still touch the screen in an attempt to tap navigation elements or to scroll a page. Personally, it was kind of a shock to witness, especially seeing that it was safe to assume that there was less than a 10 year difference in our ages. It got me thinking about a near future possibility of keyboardless computers, and the dread of writing code without one. Though it's unlikely, it struck the fear of god in me haha

izzydata 8y ago

I wish my ability to type at 150 WPM was a more marketable skill. It seems mostly irrelevant as anyone who can type above 50 WPM is good enough for 99% of situations.

yfp 8y ago

I’m a Japanese young engineer and same generation. I've encountered a similar situation. There were many colleagues of the company who don't know copy and paste and so on. It seemed Kanji problem in comments, but young people can type Kanji exactly, on rather, they don't know how to use computer like double click, where is power button etc. Also, Japanese IT companies hire new employees don't have CS degrees. They hire people in all of major. It may be a problem with hiring method.

BrandoElFollito 8y ago

Maybe this is the case in Japan. It is certainly not true in Europe. People use keyboards all the time and submitting anything beyond basic on a smartphone does not happen here. I was at our local library recently, during the time students were preparing for exams. Everyone had z phone to check messages. Almost everyone had a laptop. I did not see a single tablet.