16 ms·

USB Type-C is still a mess

312 points by kissickas 8y ago

epistasis 8y ago
I would like a USB-C hub that's like the USB-A hubs of yore: more than 2 USB-C ports, ideally 4 or more downstream facing ports. I saw one once that had 2 downstream ports and one upstream port, as well as several USB-A downstream ports, but I just want to transition fully to USB-C. Why are there no products for that, I wonder?
- pstrateman 8y ago
  The USB-C port can pull substantially more power than the USB-A ports. Instead of getting the USB-PD stuff setup to reject requests, they just have a single USB-C port.
- kylec 8y ago
  This is the biggest problem in my opinion. It's not possible for people to transition fully to USB-C even if you want to because of the limited number of USB-C ports on computers and the inability to add any more with hubs.
- hinkley 8y ago
  Have you tried using those '2 ports' on a USB-C 'hub'? The ones I've tested, the second one is only useful for power in. You can't actually chain devices off the hub to reduce the number of things you have to plug in. When USB-C was introduced it was finally a connector that could do power and all your data. The culmination of the idea that started with the Mac monitors with the single cable with 2 tails. No more ritual to go to or leave your desk, wearing out the connectors on all your peripherals. But we're not there yet. At all. Even Anker has fucked this up. I can't plug a USB keyboard into their top of the line hub if I plug the power supply into it. Probably because of the overvoltage problem discussed here a few weeks ago. Since I stopped plugging the power into it I've had no problems. But now I'm back to plugging in 3 cables every time I come back from a meeting.
ryzvonusef 8y ago
https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/ cycle of life
- jstimpfle 8y ago
  927 is also the number of times I have seen that comic linked here.
  - ryzvonusef 8y ago
    Sorry, it's just that...well this is the fact of life, isn't it? Technologists ALL want standardization...but can't agree with themselves...and us consumers have to suffer. It was true then, when this comic was released (I still have a USB mini cable somewhere), and it's true now. Instead of trying for ONE universal standard... why not try for a "few" tiers of standards? That way instead of a zillion variations of USB-C, we have at most... five or six, perhaps.
- lopmotr 8y ago
  No need for comics. This is literally the documentation for the .PLY mesh format: "The way out of this morass of formats is to create a single file format that is both flexible enough to anticipate future needs and that is simple enough so as not to drive away potential users." and now it really is just one more format to have to deal with.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure that wasn't the goal. USB needed a compact, robust port that also supported 3.0 speeds. Nothing else could fill that role, so they made a new port spec.
kbutler 8y ago
I have 3 dongles and one power plugged into my macbook pro right now (ethernet could be optional, external monitor, USB, power). Maybe there will be a nice docking station sometime, but for now, it's dongle city, and picking up the laptop a bit to connect/disconnect each one every time I transition between mobile and desktop-replacement. Maybe something like https://nerdtechy.com/best-usb-c-docking-stations https://nerdtechy.com/best-usb-c-docking-stations, though they currently are biased toward providing many USB-A ports.
- epistasis 8y ago
  There are many many single-connector dongles that act like docking stations. The docking stations in your link look really really big. It's easy to find something that does 2x USB-A, ethernet, HDMI, and power on Amazon, for $60-$70 dollars. This will let you have a single cable to plug into to get your monitor and everything.
- colejohnson66 8y ago
  > picking up the laptop a bit to connect/disconnect each one every time I transition between mobile and desktop-replacement. Am I missing something? You’d have to do that even if there weren’t dongles.
  - kbutler 8y ago
    I notice it more with the USB-C MBP, probably because of the thinness of the device, the number of the cables I have to dis/connect, and the fact I have to do it for both sides of the laptop.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Maybe there will be a nice docking station sometime, but for now, it's dongle city, and picking up the laptop a bit to connect/disconnect each one every time I transition between mobile and desktop-replacement. That's not unique to USB-C. My MacBook has no USB-C ports, just the previous gen. But right now has power, external hard drive, headphones, HDMI and a mouse plugged into it. When I transition to mobile, I'll have to unplug all of those, too. As you note, a docking station would be the best solution, but it's just another piece of gear I don't want on my desk.
phito 8y ago
The Nintendo Switch probably has the worst implementation of USB-C I've ever seen.
- MBCook 8y ago
  I don’t think they ever say it’s USB-C, we all just know it is. So they can claim things are damaging your device when they’re not Nintendo certified. I like Nintendo, but that’s a joke and a jerk move. They have a Tegra platform, why couldn’t they do it right?
  - oconnor663 8y ago
    To be fair, when companies try to avoid these problems by putting a physical bump in their not-entirely-compatible USB connectors, lots of other people scream bloody murder about how it's a conspiracy to force us all to buy more cables.
    - MBCook 8y ago
      I think going with USB-C is a great idea, it just seems like they messed it up a bit so it’s not fully compatible. This is certainly better than another proprietary thing.
- mfgmfg 8y ago
  Did Nintendo even advertise it as being USB-C compliant? See https://plus.google.com/102612254593917101378/posts/2CUPZ5yVTRT https://plus.google.com/102612254593917101378/posts/2CUPZ5yV...
  - monocasa 8y ago
    They do, at least on their japanese site. https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/specs/#1 https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/specs/#1
- bsimpson 8y ago
  As power delivery, it's great though. I love that I can charge my Switch with the same power adaptor as a phone/laptop/router. I can usually find or pack a generic USB-C charger and not have to think about carrying a proprietary brick to charge it. I understand that people who have USB-C video cables are upset that they can't use them; but as somebody who uses the Switch as a travel device, I really appreciate the charging flexibility.
MBCook 8y ago
“Why doesn’t Apple just get rid of Lightning and use USB-C on their iPhones!” This is why. Ignoring the momentum Lightning had from being a few years older, this is a great reason not to switch. Sadly I know this has become a big problem for people on the new Macs. Plug a USB-C hub in? Now that port doesn’t do Thunderbolt or Display Port. How do you know that? Trial and error. Very un-Appley.
- frou_dh 8y ago
  For one thing, Lightning is smaller. That's not just a technicality from looking at Wikipedia. Its design is noticeably more compact and overall nicer in terms of real-world "feel".
  - DaiPlusPlus 8y ago
    I understand Lightning is a worse connector because it places the “moving parts” (the bendable pins) in the recipient “female” socket in the host device which is subject to more wear-and-tear than the insertable plug which is on the cable which is more disposable. USB-C corrects this by placing more of the mechanical complexity in the plug again - though I’m wary of the thin plastic “tongue” in the socket.
    - MBCook 8y ago
      The rumor I remember hearing is that Apple designed USB-C after Lightning and gave it to the standards board because they wanted to get rid of USB-A on their laptops. But to get it to work they didn’t take credit and let Google have the first product with it (a Chromebook?).
      - akvadrako 8y ago
        A very interesting rumour, but considering how inelegant the USB-C connector is compared to lightning, I'm skeptical. Way too many pins and twice as many surfaces. Do you have a source?
    - matthewmacleod 8y ago
sparrish 8y ago
I disagree. It's not a mess. It works well. So much better than USB 2.0. I don't have to try to 'key' it correctly when plugging it in and the connections are fast and 'just work'.
- slouch 8y ago
  I agree. My device charges faster, and I haven't had any issues with cables not working.
  - OnMyPhone 8y ago
    So far the only issues I've had with USB C is that I had to buy a Nintendo USB C cable to charge my switch and a separate USB C cable wouldn't charge my Pixel. It did work with an external hard drive so I know the cable wasn't completely broken. I know there's other cables from some brands that might have worked, but after the 3rd one that wouldn't work for my switch I went for Nintendo. I don't have a lot of USB C devices yet, so I'm hoping they get things ironed out.
    - dhruvrrp 8y ago
      That is because the switch is not compliant with the usb-c specification. There have been lots of reports of people bricking their switch using usb-c cables which otherwise work fine with other usb-c devices. Discussion on hn: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16706803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16706803
- kup0 8y ago
  "USB-C adoption is a mess" may have been a more accurate headline
falcon620 8y ago
I guess this solidifies the more and more common view that Apple's thought leadership is something from the past. A few years ago, the messaging was along the lines of "just wait, this will just be a temporary pain - Apple is just being brave and taking the industry leader role as usual".
Latteland 8y ago
Not putting enough ports on devices is a crucial problem. Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-a. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. The new google pixelbook 2018 is a great form factor, except they only have 2 usb-c, they dropped usb-a. The reason was probably to make it a little thinner. But like on a macbook pro laptop, having two usb-a's mean you can plug a mouse and keyboard into it. The new pixelbook needs an adapter for that. edit: mixed up usb-a and -b. D'oh!
- matthewmacleod 8y ago
  Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic This is on a single specific device. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-b You mean USB-A. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. Nobody I know using MacBooks has a particular problem with this. A dongle would be required in most cases to connect to an external display in any case; it's not like Apple are selling more dongles.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Nobody I know using MacBooks has a particular problem with this. A dongle would be required in most cases to connect to an external display in any case; it's not like Apple are selling more dongles. Agreed. My wife has a MacBook with a single USB-C port. Having only one port has exactly zero impact on her. The only thing she uses it for is for charging, and very occasionally plugging in a tiny hard drive to look at her iPhoto library which is larger than the computer's built-in SSD. Everything else in her lifestyle is wireless. And that's where Apple has been going for a long time. She is Apple's target market for a single USB port device. If you're the kind of person whose lifestyle or workflow necessitates more than one port, you buy a computer with more than one port. Doesn't seem like rocket surgery. I don't understand why OC is so upset. As for Apple selling more dongles, I don't think that's what's behind it. Apple would probably rather have the shelf space for higher-margin in-house products than use the space for SKUs from another company. I doubt Apple is making bank on USB-C dongles.
dbg31415 8y ago
> USB Type-C’s complexity is undoubtedly its undoing. Although the idea of one cable to support everything sounds very useful, the reality has quickly become a convoluted combination of proprietary versus on-spec products, differing cable qualities and capabilities, and opaque feature support. The result is a standard that looks simple to use but quickly leads to consumer frustration as there is no clear indication why certain cables and features don’t work across devices. Spot on. And, in the decades it'll take to sort out, Apple will be able to bolt on and extra $250 per laptop in dongle fees. Genius. * Steve Jobs Foretold the Downfall of Apple! - YouTube || https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBma82g3Uag&t=0m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBma82g3Uag&t=0m40s
exmadscientist 8y ago
Speaking as someone in the industry who's worked on Type C-enabled gadgets, half the bloody problem is that the Type C products offered by the major semiconductor companies are _terrible_. For sake of a simple example, consider designing a rechargeable flashlight. For whatever reason, you'd like it to be rechargeable over a USB-C port. You also want the flashlight to charge as fast as possible from whatever power source you connect it to, because you know people will need to charge it quickly. To do that, the ideal solution would be a single IC that sits on the USB port and monitors D+/D-, CC1/2, and the rail voltages and sets a few GPIOs to tell your battery charge circuit what is and isn't allowed on this port. Inexplicably, _that chip doesn't exist_. It does exist for USB 2.0 (that is, BC1.2), available from several vendors, and works perfectly. There are solutions marketed for Type-C... but they don't touch USB 2.0. That means someone who uses a Type-A to Type-C cable with a beefy older Type-A charger doesn't get fast charging. There are some bigger Type-C products that might work, but they're incredibly complex, physically large, expensive, often in BGA packages, and will blow out every line on your budget. Admittedly it's been about a year since I turned over every stone in the industry searching for my Magical Unicorn Charging IC (like the ones that exist for USB 2.0...), but I do pay attention to new product releases and I haven't seen anyone going in this direction. Probably you could get something customized (at medium volumes) or certainly full custom (at high volumes), but if volumes or margins are low enough to require COTS parts, there really aren't any workable solutions. I am confident that Type-C's market penetration will skyrocket as soon as the difficulty and cost of actually integrating it into a product reaches sane levels.
- extralego 8y ago
  Wouldn't there always be companies trying to sell the cheapest qualifier? Wouldn't the expensive products you mention that "might work" become more affordable if they were manufactured at a higher rate? (But maybe they aren't because they are harder to sell) >I am confident that Type-C's market penetration will skyrocket as soon as the difficulty and cost of actually integrating it into a product reaches sane levels. Isn't the current market of so many low-cost Type-C devices evidence that the cost is already low?
  - 8y ago
WhitneyLand 8y ago
Designed by the same consortium that was fine with letting manufactures put the “this side up” symbol for micro USB in black, on a black cable, in a size ~a couple millimeters square? Btw, if you are still using some of these cables coloring one side with a bright colored Sharpie will change your life.
devxpy 8y ago
This kind of makes sense if you look at how this should work.. Having a single port for everything is bad idea, because the electrical interface can't possibly be the same for everything. Making this happen is obviously a really hard task from an engineering standpoint. Device makers have to employ various adapters internally, so that everything works on the same interface. No wonder manufacturers are suffering to keep up!
imran3740 8y ago
> Port shortages Would it hurt anyone to put two USB-C ports on a smartphone? Thank goodness my phone still has a 3.5mm jack, but some people would like to charge their phone and listen to (wired) audio without having to buy an adapter. And it's not like this is an uncommon use case either, anecdotally some of my friends with iPhones face this issue.
- MBCook 8y ago
  Would you really have a second USB-C port over just keeping the headphone jack?
  - imran3740 8y ago
    I mean, USB-C seems to be the direction we're going anyways, plus it offers a lot more flexibility for audio eg. allows for active components like a higher-end DAC or amp on the headphones. Most people probably wouldn't really care for this, and the ones who do probably have portable media players already, so I would prefer to keep the headphone jack. The reality is, though, that USB-C appears to be the future.
    - paulmd 8y ago
      You don't need type-C for running an external DAC/amp. Most smartphones support USB-OTG over micro-B and many DAC units use generic audio drivers. Of course you'd still need two ports if you wanted to charge at the same time. It would probably be more interesting to see smartphones that could use the headphone output as a digital signal, like a coaxial output. We want the 3.5mm output anyway, so why not just let it dump a digital signal to an external amp?
      - pas 8y ago
        Can one port source data (digital audio) and sink power at the same time to a splitter?
  - mjevans 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
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huebnerob 8y ago
There's two fundamentally unrelated but easily muddled situations here. A) USB-C PD, USB-C audio, or even just straight-up USB-C data devices, and/or USB-C hosts not adhering to standards. This is definitely a problem, but it's something that needs to be addressed by device manufacturers, not by the spec itself. B) Protocols other than USB over the USB-C connector (Thunderbolt 3, Displayport, potentially analog audio output?) not being universally inter-compatible. I don't see how this one is a real issue. Imagine for a moment that you had a magical morphing port that could be an audio jack, HDMI port, thunderbolt port, or USB port, and it just became whichever one it needed to be when you plugged something in. This is the situation we're in with USB-C multi-protocol, the port on the host device changes identity based on what it's connected to. That wouldn't mean that you could suddenly run your hard drive off a 3.5mm headphone cable.
- pdpi 8y ago
  > Imagine for a moment that you had a magical morphing port That's mostly the case with Apple's devices where all ports support all functionality, but there's products in the market where some but not all USB-C ports are Thunderbolt- or USBPD-enabled. This becomes a royal pain in the arse, where you have a bunch of ports that all look like they should support the peripheral you're trying to plug in, but don't, for some reason.
  - MBCook 8y ago
    So put a USB-C hub (because that’s the connector, what else would you buy?) into your Mac. And you plug your display into that. And it has some USB-C and Thunderbolt stuff plugged in. It used to all work, but now with the hub in-line your Thunderbolt drive doesn’t work and your display doesn’t get a signal. The hub must be broken, right? So you buy a new one. Same problem. How is any normal person supposed to figure this stuff out? You’re right. It’s a total mess.
    - pdpi 8y ago
      > So put a USB-C hub (because that’s the connector, what else would you buy?) into your Mac. This will eventually become a problem, definitely. Thankfully, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem right now because USB-C hubs are as common as hen's teeth (they're usually C to A, or C to a bazillion things)
sametmax 8y ago
And voip, and sharing files, sending encrypted emails, managing your contacts, taking notes on a computer, make a backup, simple photo edition, email clients, todo management, rss readers, deal with your encryption key, work in a terminal, packaging in Python... I find it a good news: there is always something you can take as a mission. There is plenty of things to do. And that's just the geeks stuff, not even talking about the important specie level issues.
mtgx 8y ago
The main issue here is that USB IF wanted to "please everyone" and had a very weak compliance process accompanied by a complex licensing scheme. This is an idea created by their own hand. Hopefully there will be a Type-C 2.0 or something where everyone has to implement either all the specs or none of them. And all chargers and devices must be 100% compatible.
bluedino 8y ago
I finally broke down and bought a generic USB-C charger (Insignia from Best Buy) to keep in the shop, because enough USB-C laptops come through and nobody ever brings a charger. But just because a laptop has USB-C ports doesn't mean you can charge using it, here's looking at you, Lenovo P51. This machine is a workstation and requires 130W, USB-C can only supply 100W so it won't charge at all over USB-C. Blah. Also had no luck even trickle-charging smaller USB-C machines like the HP x360 using a phone charger.
- danbee 8y ago
  Man, that sucks! I managed to trickle charge my 15" MacBook Pro with a 12W iPad charger once when I forgot the laptop adapter. Took overnight but it worked!
- kevin_b_er 8y ago
  Color me dumbfounded, but does "won't charge at all" mean it accepts 0A inward or that it takes in only 100W while still draining itself at ~30W?
  - bluedino 8y ago
    Doesn't take a charge via USB-C, period.
- bradstewart 8y ago
  Same is true of my Razer Blade (2016).
- kalleboo 8y ago
  > Also had no luck even trickle-charging smaller USB-C machines like the HP x360 using a phone charger. That sucks, one of my favorite features of the new MacBook Pros is extending the battery life using a portable USB battery intended for phones
ohazi 8y ago
The one nice thing I can say about USB Type-C is that the physical connector is pretty great, especially when compared to Micro USB, which was awful. Of course, even here I have to add a huge caveat, as I've seen devices that charge at different rates depending on the orientation of the Type-C plug. facepalm
- lucb1e 8y ago
  From my n=1 experience with USB-C, I prefer micro-USB because the connection (female) is not sharp at the bottom of my phone. The one C connector I've tried (Xiaomi Mi A1) was so sharp it was just not comfortable to hold. This was one of the reasons I returned it and got another device with micro-USB instead.
TremendousJudge 8y ago
I see that laptops don't come with HDMI output anymore. How many monitors have USB-C inputs?
- megaman22 8y ago
  Not a one of the dozen or so that I have, between work and home.
jedberg 8y ago
People got really mad when Apple decided not to put USB-C on the latest iPhones. Now that's looking to have been a pretty wise choice.
jrockway 8y ago
I remember arguing with people when Type-C was new; they told me it would change the world, I told them it would never work. The problem is... they made everything optional, and thus when a user sees a Type-C port, they have no idea what to expect. Will it work with a device that requires Thunderbolt? Will it drive a DisplayPort monitor? Will this charger charge their laptop? Will this charger charge their phone? The answer to any of those questions is "it depends". Many Type C ports do DisplayPort. Many don't. Many Type C chargers will charge something that needs 5V, but not something that needs a higher voltage. The end result is that you end up with thousands of devices with the same physical connector that can't actually operate with each other. My favorite USB C device is Wacom's Intuos Pro pen tablet thingie. It has 3 Type C ports and needs DisplayPort input, USB 2.0, and 20V power. So there is not a computer in the world that you can plug it into with one cable, because I've never seen a computer that can output 20V over Type C. To get around that it, it has three ports and ships with a power brick... so you have two Type C cables going into it at a minimum. So close... if only they would accept 5V power. (I did some measurements and it uses only a tiny amount of power that is well under what can be supplied with 5V, but they appear to have reused the power delivery subsystem from their nearly-identical laptops, which do really need a lot of power to charge the battery.) I don't see the situation improving. When you have 3 versions of power delivery and at least 4 "alternate modes" to implement, nobody is ever going to implement them all. So people will always be connecting Type C peripherals to Type C computers and being disappointed. And there is no way for the user to predict what works, because it's not like anyone shares specifications of what's required ("this monitor needs 20V and DisplayPort Alternate Mode") ("this computer can supply 100W, and implements USB 3.1, DisplayPort Alternate Mode and HDMI Alternate Mode"). It failed. I look forward to USB Type D that has a more durable connector and doesn't allow "optional" extensions. Maybe that will work. But for now, it looks like I will be struggling with upside-down Type A connectors for the next ten years. Sigh.
- MBCook 8y ago
  I’m not sure optionality is the problem so much as they didn’t NEED to combine three things into one. If USB-C has video and USB it would be pretty great. Video could be optional but that’s easy enough. But Thunderbolt is a HUGE complication. It should have used some other connector and then this stuff would be easy enough to figure out but you’d still get plenty of benefit. Of course TB already used the Mini-DP connector, so that would have made video out a mess. And it was too late to fix that. And leaving all three separate is it’s own mess. I’m not sure there was a good solution at this point. Which seems like a lack of planning.
chx 8y ago
My highest score answer on superuser.com is about USB C https://superuser.com/a/1200112/41259 https://superuser.com/a/1200112/41259 and I had this to say after a long list of capabilities: > They really, really should have provided some way to clarify this mess but they didn't. If colors and icons with the big variety and the space constrains are not viable then provide a standard way for software to give a capability list to the user. Or a diagnostics tool that you can plug into USB-C and it gives you a list of "this port can provide signals A, B, C and accepts inputs D, E, F". Given the lack of that when plugging together two USB C sockets and the results are not satisfactory any of the following might occur: 1. The signal you want is not provided by the source 2. The cable is not capable of carrying the signal you want 3. The sink can't process the signal 4. It just doesn't work because of firmware bugs or driver bugs 5. There might be interference, there was a Dell problem where lowering wifi signal strength made Thunderbolt better.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
  After reading through this thread, I was thinking something similar to what you are proposing is the cleanest way forward (except I was thinking numbers instead of letters). You could even get more clever and use colors, where complementary colors work together. Couple that with some error messages that mirror what you wrote in the last part of your post in software whenever you plugged in a USB-C device to a connector and I think the standard could be salvaged and even a relative pleasure to use given the background.
  - chx 8y ago
    Out of the five points I wrote only 1 and 3 can be tested via a standard USB C tester device if it existed. 2 and most especially 5 is fiercely expensive to test and 4 is well, software bugs (firmware is just software, after all). You know how that goes.
ScottBurson 8y ago
I have a new MacBook Pro, an external USB-C HDD for backup, and an Android portable music player, also with USB-C. I got a cable to connect the HDD to the MBP, and it works fine for that purpose, but when I use that cable to connect the PMP to the MBP, it doesn't work: the MBP doesn't mount the PMP's filesystem. But if I use a C-male-to-A-female adapter, then an A-to-C cable, the PMP mounts just fine. Anyone know why?
- ScottBurson 8y ago
  Never mind — it's working now. I don't know why it didn't work earlier.
themagician 8y ago
Maybe it's just me, but I've had zero major issues with USB-C and can't imagine going back. I spent maybe $100 on new cables so I have one or two of everything. I only wish they had USB-C hubs so I could drop the USB Type-A connectors all together. I honestly find it much easier. The simplicity of just not having to flip he connector around 3 times every time you plug something in alone is worth it. It can be a little tricky to figure out what voltages/options are supported, but this has already gotten much better. This is really just an issue with manufactures not labeling things. On the cable end I feel like this is actually already mostly solved. Cable Matters gives pretty good specs for every cable. It's really device manufactures that kind of leave you in the dark. I'd venture a guess that if the USB consortium actually created an easy to use label with some good information architecutre that this problem would fix itself.
- dawnerd 8y ago
  There are some hubs out there but they're more designed for thunderbolt 3.
- Tijdreiziger 8y ago
  Who wants to spend $100 on cables?
  - franciscop 8y ago
    I wouldn't mind at all if it means I only have to carry ONE cable for all my devices or risk not using them/paying for a new cable. I got 4 devices, and 4 cables: - Smartphone: USB-C - Laptop: 12v barrel charger - Kindle: micro USB - GoPro 3: mini USB My next laptop will be USB-C charging for sure, so at least the 2 items I use the most can share a charger. Now I don't mind so much, but when I was travelling/nomad it'd have made my life way easier.
    - jjrh 8y ago
      For micro and mini there are some adaptor thingies. I bought a few to deal with the couple of older devices I have with mini. One probably exists for USB-C so you only need one cable.
digi_owl 8y ago
The crazy part is that "reversible USB" was already a solved problem, by clever engineering of the A plug. Never mind that on its face, the C plug is a nice reversible plug. But then someone noticed all those contact points on one side that went to waste half the time, and thought they could cram even more signals down the wire, and here we are...
- organsnyder 8y ago
  Are you saying that some USB-C implementations are direction-specific? I've never heard of that problem before.
  - digi_owl 8y ago
    Best i understand, they kinda are. But then the electronics at either end is responsible for negotiating what side is "up".
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  > thought they could cram even more signals down the wire, and here we are... How so? I'd say 95% of the complication would still exist if you only used the contact points on one side. You would eliminate 3.2 speeds (would anyone notice?), the video+data mode would be slightly different and slightly simpler... and not much else would change.
notadoc 8y ago
Say what you want about USB-C, but it has been a bonanza for dongle sales.
yathern 8y ago
I always hear how USB-C is such a mess, and everyone agrees - I just wanted to quickly provide a counter anecdote. As a user, who knows nothing about the protocol or the politics or anything else - USB-C works wonderfully for me - I only wish more devices used it. My laptop plugs into my monitor, provides more USB ports there, and audio out, which feeds into speakers. My dinky phone charger can charge my laptop, which I love. Easier to take around when traveling. No low points for me yet.
- jaypeg25 8y ago
  What laptop do you have? I'm in the market for a new one and thinking I'd really love to get one that's got usb-c charging
  - aembleton 8y ago
    I have the Xiaomi Air 12 laptop [1]. It's charged from USB-C, which allows me to take one charger for my laptop, phone and headphones. It will not charge from a phone charger though, as it is not powerful enough. I have to use the one that came with it or a similar powerful enough one. I tried the ones in the Apple store and they power this laptop just fine. 1. https://www.gearbest.com/laptops/pp_416105.html?wid=1349303 https://www.gearbest.com/laptops/pp_416105.html?wid=1349303
- Latty 8y ago
  Seriously, this. I love reversible connectors. I love being able to use my phone as host or as client (charge a friend's phone from mine? No problem). Right now though, there are zero cases on the market with USB-C ports on the front, zero USB-C hubs that have all USB-C ports for downstream (I think there is one with two C, two A). Right now, I have my phone, my battery pack, and my yubikey on USB-C, and if I could find a hub I'd buy a ton of adaptors and switch everything to it. It's so convenient. It's this chicken and egg thing where even as an early adopter you just can't get it. I have the same problem with DisplayPort 1.4 - you literally can't get devices for it. I have a multi-monitor setup with 4K displays and would love a DisplayPort hub (or better yet, switch), that supported DP1.4 so I could hook them all up down one line (not enough bandwidth on pre-1.4 stuff).
ogig 8y ago
Just today I setup a Dell monitor (S2718D) to a new Macbook and was the first time I thought USB-C was nice. Out of one cable you charge the Macbook, output video to the monitor and get 2 very welcome USB ports from a hub in the monitor base.
Animats 8y ago
It's not just a 4-pin USB connector. It's a 24-pin connector with pins for USB, DisplayPort, Thunderbolt, Ethernet, and JTAG. Some of which may work. Do those 24 tiny pins hold up in use?
- ohazi 8y ago
  In my experience, yes, they hold up far better than Micro USB. The Type-C physical connector seems to be the one thing they actually managed to get right.
dawnerd 8y ago
I love it, mentioned it the other day in the thread about MBP gripes. One cable to connect everything. Way better than the older days of plugging in power, usb, displayport cables (and ethernet if thats your thing).
peterwwillis 8y ago
The biggest fraud of USB-C is it just doesn't do what consumers expect. I bought a USB-C device, expecting the device to then provide all the functionality that USB-C was advertised as having. But the manufacturer didn't implement any of those features, so it's just a non-standard cable that I need a dozen adapters for. What a joke.
- lopmotr 8y ago
  That's just expectations which will adapt quickly enough. I doubt you'll make the same mistake again. It's not just type C either I bought a USB 3.0 thumbdrive once and it turned out to be the same speed as a normal one, so even though it was 3.0 as advertised, there was absolutely no advantage in that. Nobody complains that their bedside lamp doesn't deliver the full 2400 W that the wall outlet advertises or that it doesn't allow bulbs more than 40 W even though the same socket can take 100 W bulbs in other lamps.
  - peterwwillis 8y ago
    People do complain about lightbulbs. That's why lamps for sale list standard safety ratings, bulb socket types, and bulb capacities. But nowhere on my $450 phone did it say "No USB-C extensions supported, this is just a standard USB-3.0 device with a plug nothing supports". If you bought a bulb that said "CFL form factor" and it was actually an incandescent bulb that just looked like a CFL, you could arguably sue for deceptive advertising.
  - Can_Not 8y ago
    > Nobody complains that their bedside lamp doesn't deliver the full 2400 W that the wall outlet I don't think the same information asymmetry exists for lamps that we have in USB C.
lopmotr 8y ago
What happened to enforcing trademark rights on the USB logo? Just about every obviously non-compliant 10m long USB extension cable or retractable power-only cable has the USB logo on it. Sometimes it's a bastardized form but it's basically still the logo. If they were more aggressive in eliminating these products from the market, even one-man Amazon shops, then at you could look at the logo to decide if it at least meets the spec.
pkamb 8y ago
I still don't understand why Apple did not release a USB-A + USB-C hub / dongle to replace the Charging Brick on their new laptops. Would eliminate so many of their USB-C issues just by having a high-quality port expander in the market.
djsumdog 8y ago
USB-C /w DisplayPort seems to work really well for monitors. If you have a monitor that can output a good amount of voltage, it is quite literally the only connector you need. At work the only cable connected to my MacBook Pro (running Linux) is a USB-C thunderbolt cable to a monitor which connects all my standard USB-A devices (keyboard, mouse, hub, flash, drives, etc.) At home I can do the same thing with my HP Spectre or Dell XPS 15 and an LG monitor (XPS complains about voltage, but it still charges). Viewsonic even has USB-C monitors that are KVMs too. You plug in your keyboard and mouse to the monitor and it will switch them on input select. Ultimately I'd really like to see a pure USB-C KVM that support DisplayPort 1.4 (no KVM does this currently) so you could have laptop power and full 4k+10Bit all from one cable.
FooHentai 8y ago
USB-C has somehow made docking stations take a big backwards step. Which is a huge shame because we finally got to a good place with USB3 docking stations, where weird ports on the underside of specific laptops could finally go away in favour of a highly standardized one-cord docking solution. 18 months ago we deployed USB3 docks into a sizeable office space. We were able to standardize on a model that works reliably, every time. The only down-side is the dock can't provide power. Now we're looking at a similar situation and USB-C is the 'obvious' choice. But it's a far more complicated situation. Some devices will take a charge, some won't, and you have to match up the power input/output requirements quite carefully. It's a more complex landscape than PoE, for no good reason. Thunderbolt docks are the only ones we've found to provide reliable operation, but they also suffer from weird docking/un-docking behaviour as well as massive security flaws since you lost a lot of the 'standard' USB safe/abstraction layer stuff by plugging in what is effectively a DMA device. Yuck, frankly. This shouldn't have been so difficult - Just take USB3, introduce a Power-over-USB capability, and bump the speed. But no.
mikece 8y ago
In order to solve the USB Type-C dumpster fire we need a new USB Type-D standard which is unambiguously and apologetically NOT backward compatible... which is usually an Apple move. Except if Apple invents it they aren't going to share it so there's no solution anytime soon.
Laforet 8y ago
A few years back I thought USB-C was a better mechanical design than Apple's lightning port. You see, the spring loaded parts were built into the male conductors on the cable while lightning had them on the female connectors of the actual device; judging from the number of broken USB and DC charging ports I have witnessed it seemed prudent that moving parts should be placed in the side that is more easily replaced. Well, I got what I asked for. I bought my first smartphone with USB-C connection by the end of 2106 and I'm on the 5th charging cable at the moment. The cable that came with the phone failed 6 month in and the $20 replacements (reputable brand with full fast charging capability while it worked) barely lasted any longer. I am hesitant to buy anything more expensive as they'd have a limited lifespan too. Meanwhile all my lighning cables and devices bought in 2014 are going strong. I did have to retire a couple of cables because the ends had started to fray but even those never really ceased to charge. My impression of USB-C so far gives me the vibes of early SATA ports rated to last 50 insertions. A lot of work is needed to make it on par with USB-B connectors in terms of physical reliability.
zbentley 8y ago
Another fun defect I've found while doing hardware support: some USB-C dongles (for various ports) are directionally sensitive (only work when turned a certain way. This isn't limited to cheap dongles, nor does it seem to be a physical (shaky port or loose connection) problem. I'd love to know why that's the case.
supertramp_ 8y ago
Believe me or not, I've bought a MacBook Pro with a 3rd-party usb-c Hub adapter and I've noticed whenever I plug it, it interferes with my hotspot connection (I don't receive any data from my hotspot anymore). Does anyone know anything about this?

312 points by kissickas 8y ago

I would like a USB-C hub that's like the USB-A hubs of yore: more than 2 USB-C ports, ideally 4 or more downstream facing ports. I saw one once that had 2 downstream ports and one upstream port, as well as several USB-A downstream ports, but I just want to transition fully to USB-C. Why are there no products for that, I wonder?

pstrateman 8y ago
The USB-C port can pull substantially more power than the USB-A ports. Instead of getting the USB-PD stuff setup to reject requests, they just have a single USB-C port.
kylec 8y ago
This is the biggest problem in my opinion. It's not possible for people to transition fully to USB-C even if you want to because of the limited number of USB-C ports on computers and the inability to add any more with hubs.
hinkley 8y ago
Have you tried using those '2 ports' on a USB-C 'hub'? The ones I've tested, the second one is only useful for power in. You can't actually chain devices off the hub to reduce the number of things you have to plug in. When USB-C was introduced it was finally a connector that could do power and all your data. The culmination of the idea that started with the Mac monitors with the single cable with 2 tails. No more ritual to go to or leave your desk, wearing out the connectors on all your peripherals. But we're not there yet. At all. Even Anker has fucked this up. I can't plug a USB keyboard into their top of the line hub if I plug the power supply into it. Probably because of the overvoltage problem discussed here a few weeks ago. Since I stopped plugging the power into it I've had no problems. But now I'm back to plugging in 3 cables every time I come back from a meeting.

ryzvonusef 8y ago

https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/ cycle of life

jstimpfle 8y ago
927 is also the number of times I have seen that comic linked here.
- ryzvonusef 8y ago
  Sorry, it's just that...well this is the fact of life, isn't it? Technologists ALL want standardization...but can't agree with themselves...and us consumers have to suffer. It was true then, when this comic was released (I still have a USB mini cable somewhere), and it's true now. Instead of trying for ONE universal standard... why not try for a "few" tiers of standards? That way instead of a zillion variations of USB-C, we have at most... five or six, perhaps.
lopmotr 8y ago
No need for comics. This is literally the documentation for the .PLY mesh format: "The way out of this morass of formats is to create a single file format that is both flexible enough to anticipate future needs and that is simple enough so as not to drive away potential users." and now it really is just one more format to have to deal with.
Dylan16807 8y ago
I'm pretty sure that wasn't the goal. USB needed a compact, robust port that also supported 3.0 speeds. Nothing else could fill that role, so they made a new port spec.

kbutler 8y ago

I have 3 dongles and one power plugged into my macbook pro right now (ethernet could be optional, external monitor, USB, power). Maybe there will be a nice docking station sometime, but for now, it's dongle city, and picking up the laptop a bit to connect/disconnect each one every time I transition between mobile and desktop-replacement. Maybe something like https://nerdtechy.com/best-usb-c-docking-stations https://nerdtechy.com/best-usb-c-docking-stations, though they currently are biased toward providing many USB-A ports.

epistasis 8y ago
There are many many single-connector dongles that act like docking stations. The docking stations in your link look really really big. It's easy to find something that does 2x USB-A, ethernet, HDMI, and power on Amazon, for $60-$70 dollars. This will let you have a single cable to plug into to get your monitor and everything.
colejohnson66 8y ago
> picking up the laptop a bit to connect/disconnect each one every time I transition between mobile and desktop-replacement. Am I missing something? You’d have to do that even if there weren’t dongles.
- kbutler 8y ago
  I notice it more with the USB-C MBP, probably because of the thinness of the device, the number of the cables I have to dis/connect, and the fact I have to do it for both sides of the laptop.
reaperducer 8y ago
Maybe there will be a nice docking station sometime, but for now, it's dongle city, and picking up the laptop a bit to connect/disconnect each one every time I transition between mobile and desktop-replacement. That's not unique to USB-C. My MacBook has no USB-C ports, just the previous gen. But right now has power, external hard drive, headphones, HDMI and a mouse plugged into it. When I transition to mobile, I'll have to unplug all of those, too. As you note, a docking station would be the best solution, but it's just another piece of gear I don't want on my desk.

phito 8y ago

The Nintendo Switch probably has the worst implementation of USB-C I've ever seen.

MBCook 8y ago
I don’t think they ever say it’s USB-C, we all just know it is. So they can claim things are damaging your device when they’re not Nintendo certified. I like Nintendo, but that’s a joke and a jerk move. They have a Tegra platform, why couldn’t they do it right?
- oconnor663 8y ago
  To be fair, when companies try to avoid these problems by putting a physical bump in their not-entirely-compatible USB connectors, lots of other people scream bloody murder about how it's a conspiracy to force us all to buy more cables.
  - MBCook 8y ago
    I think going with USB-C is a great idea, it just seems like they messed it up a bit so it’s not fully compatible. This is certainly better than another proprietary thing.
mfgmfg 8y ago
Did Nintendo even advertise it as being USB-C compliant? See https://plus.google.com/102612254593917101378/posts/2CUPZ5yVTRT https://plus.google.com/102612254593917101378/posts/2CUPZ5yV...
- monocasa 8y ago
  They do, at least on their japanese site. https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/specs/#1 https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/specs/#1
bsimpson 8y ago
As power delivery, it's great though. I love that I can charge my Switch with the same power adaptor as a phone/laptop/router. I can usually find or pack a generic USB-C charger and not have to think about carrying a proprietary brick to charge it. I understand that people who have USB-C video cables are upset that they can't use them; but as somebody who uses the Switch as a travel device, I really appreciate the charging flexibility.

MBCook 8y ago

“Why doesn’t Apple just get rid of Lightning and use USB-C on their iPhones!” This is why. Ignoring the momentum Lightning had from being a few years older, this is a great reason not to switch. Sadly I know this has become a big problem for people on the new Macs. Plug a USB-C hub in? Now that port doesn’t do Thunderbolt or Display Port. How do you know that? Trial and error. Very un-Appley.

frou_dh 8y ago
For one thing, Lightning is smaller. That's not just a technicality from looking at Wikipedia. Its design is noticeably more compact and overall nicer in terms of real-world "feel".
- DaiPlusPlus 8y ago
  I understand Lightning is a worse connector because it places the “moving parts” (the bendable pins) in the recipient “female” socket in the host device which is subject to more wear-and-tear than the insertable plug which is on the cable which is more disposable. USB-C corrects this by placing more of the mechanical complexity in the plug again - though I’m wary of the thin plastic “tongue” in the socket.
  - MBCook 8y ago
    The rumor I remember hearing is that Apple designed USB-C after Lightning and gave it to the standards board because they wanted to get rid of USB-A on their laptops. But to get it to work they didn’t take credit and let Google have the first product with it (a Chromebook?).
    - akvadrako 8y ago
      A very interesting rumour, but considering how inelegant the USB-C connector is compared to lightning, I'm skeptical. Way too many pins and twice as many surfaces. Do you have a source?
  - matthewmacleod 8y ago

sparrish 8y ago

I disagree. It's not a mess. It works well. So much better than USB 2.0. I don't have to try to 'key' it correctly when plugging it in and the connections are fast and 'just work'.

slouch 8y ago
I agree. My device charges faster, and I haven't had any issues with cables not working.
- OnMyPhone 8y ago
  So far the only issues I've had with USB C is that I had to buy a Nintendo USB C cable to charge my switch and a separate USB C cable wouldn't charge my Pixel. It did work with an external hard drive so I know the cable wasn't completely broken. I know there's other cables from some brands that might have worked, but after the 3rd one that wouldn't work for my switch I went for Nintendo. I don't have a lot of USB C devices yet, so I'm hoping they get things ironed out.
  - dhruvrrp 8y ago
    That is because the switch is not compliant with the usb-c specification. There have been lots of reports of people bricking their switch using usb-c cables which otherwise work fine with other usb-c devices. Discussion on hn: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16706803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16706803
kup0 8y ago
"USB-C adoption is a mess" may have been a more accurate headline

falcon620 8y ago

I guess this solidifies the more and more common view that Apple's thought leadership is something from the past. A few years ago, the messaging was along the lines of "just wait, this will just be a temporary pain - Apple is just being brave and taking the industry leader role as usual".

Latteland 8y ago

Not putting enough ports on devices is a crucial problem. Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-a. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. The new google pixelbook 2018 is a great form factor, except they only have 2 usb-c, they dropped usb-a. The reason was probably to make it a little thinner. But like on a macbook pro laptop, having two usb-a's mean you can plug a mouse and keyboard into it. The new pixelbook needs an adapter for that. edit: mixed up usb-a and -b. D'oh!

matthewmacleod 8y ago
Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic This is on a single specific device. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-b You mean USB-A. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. Nobody I know using MacBooks has a particular problem with this. A dongle would be required in most cases to connect to an external display in any case; it's not like Apple are selling more dongles.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Nobody I know using MacBooks has a particular problem with this. A dongle would be required in most cases to connect to an external display in any case; it's not like Apple are selling more dongles. Agreed. My wife has a MacBook with a single USB-C port. Having only one port has exactly zero impact on her. The only thing she uses it for is for charging, and very occasionally plugging in a tiny hard drive to look at her iPhoto library which is larger than the computer's built-in SSD. Everything else in her lifestyle is wireless. And that's where Apple has been going for a long time. She is Apple's target market for a single USB port device. If you're the kind of person whose lifestyle or workflow necessitates more than one port, you buy a computer with more than one port. Doesn't seem like rocket surgery. I don't understand why OC is so upset. As for Apple selling more dongles, I don't think that's what's behind it. Apple would probably rather have the shelf space for higher-margin in-house products than use the space for SKUs from another company. I doubt Apple is making bank on USB-C dongles.

dbg31415 8y ago

> USB Type-C’s complexity is undoubtedly its undoing. Although the idea of one cable to support everything sounds very useful, the reality has quickly become a convoluted combination of proprietary versus on-spec products, differing cable qualities and capabilities, and opaque feature support. The result is a standard that looks simple to use but quickly leads to consumer frustration as there is no clear indication why certain cables and features don’t work across devices. Spot on. And, in the decades it'll take to sort out, Apple will be able to bolt on and extra $250 per laptop in dongle fees. Genius. * Steve Jobs Foretold the Downfall of Apple! - YouTube || https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBma82g3Uag&t=0m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBma82g3Uag&t=0m40s

exmadscientist 8y ago

Speaking as someone in the industry who's worked on Type C-enabled gadgets, half the bloody problem is that the Type C products offered by the major semiconductor companies are _terrible_. For sake of a simple example, consider designing a rechargeable flashlight. For whatever reason, you'd like it to be rechargeable over a USB-C port. You also want the flashlight to charge as fast as possible from whatever power source you connect it to, because you know people will need to charge it quickly. To do that, the ideal solution would be a single IC that sits on the USB port and monitors D+/D-, CC1/2, and the rail voltages and sets a few GPIOs to tell your battery charge circuit what is and isn't allowed on this port. Inexplicably, _that chip doesn't exist_. It does exist for USB 2.0 (that is, BC1.2), available from several vendors, and works perfectly. There are solutions marketed for Type-C... but they don't touch USB 2.0. That means someone who uses a Type-A to Type-C cable with a beefy older Type-A charger doesn't get fast charging. There are some bigger Type-C products that might work, but they're incredibly complex, physically large, expensive, often in BGA packages, and will blow out every line on your budget. Admittedly it's been about a year since I turned over every stone in the industry searching for my Magical Unicorn Charging IC (like the ones that exist for USB 2.0...), but I do pay attention to new product releases and I haven't seen anyone going in this direction. Probably you could get something customized (at medium volumes) or certainly full custom (at high volumes), but if volumes or margins are low enough to require COTS parts, there really aren't any workable solutions. I am confident that Type-C's market penetration will skyrocket as soon as the difficulty and cost of actually integrating it into a product reaches sane levels.

extralego 8y ago
Wouldn't there always be companies trying to sell the cheapest qualifier? Wouldn't the expensive products you mention that "might work" become more affordable if they were manufactured at a higher rate? (But maybe they aren't because they are harder to sell) >I am confident that Type-C's market penetration will skyrocket as soon as the difficulty and cost of actually integrating it into a product reaches sane levels. Isn't the current market of so many low-cost Type-C devices evidence that the cost is already low?
- 8y ago

WhitneyLand 8y ago

Designed by the same consortium that was fine with letting manufactures put the “this side up” symbol for micro USB in black, on a black cable, in a size ~a couple millimeters square? Btw, if you are still using some of these cables coloring one side with a bright colored Sharpie will change your life.

devxpy 8y ago

This kind of makes sense if you look at how this should work.. Having a single port for everything is bad idea, because the electrical interface can't possibly be the same for everything. Making this happen is obviously a really hard task from an engineering standpoint. Device makers have to employ various adapters internally, so that everything works on the same interface. No wonder manufacturers are suffering to keep up!

imran3740 8y ago

> Port shortages Would it hurt anyone to put two USB-C ports on a smartphone? Thank goodness my phone still has a 3.5mm jack, but some people would like to charge their phone and listen to (wired) audio without having to buy an adapter. And it's not like this is an uncommon use case either, anecdotally some of my friends with iPhones face this issue.

MBCook 8y ago
Would you really have a second USB-C port over just keeping the headphone jack?
- imran3740 8y ago
  I mean, USB-C seems to be the direction we're going anyways, plus it offers a lot more flexibility for audio eg. allows for active components like a higher-end DAC or amp on the headphones. Most people probably wouldn't really care for this, and the ones who do probably have portable media players already, so I would prefer to keep the headphone jack. The reality is, though, that USB-C appears to be the future.
  - paulmd 8y ago
    You don't need type-C for running an external DAC/amp. Most smartphones support USB-OTG over micro-B and many DAC units use generic audio drivers. Of course you'd still need two ports if you wanted to charge at the same time. It would probably be more interesting to see smartphones that could use the headphone output as a digital signal, like a coaxial output. We want the 3.5mm output anyway, so why not just let it dump a digital signal to an external amp?
    - pas 8y ago
      Can one port source data (digital audio) and sink power at the same time to a splitter?
- mjevans 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

huebnerob 8y ago

There's two fundamentally unrelated but easily muddled situations here. A) USB-C PD, USB-C audio, or even just straight-up USB-C data devices, and/or USB-C hosts not adhering to standards. This is definitely a problem, but it's something that needs to be addressed by device manufacturers, not by the spec itself. B) Protocols other than USB over the USB-C connector (Thunderbolt 3, Displayport, potentially analog audio output?) not being universally inter-compatible. I don't see how this one is a real issue. Imagine for a moment that you had a magical morphing port that could be an audio jack, HDMI port, thunderbolt port, or USB port, and it just became whichever one it needed to be when you plugged something in. This is the situation we're in with USB-C multi-protocol, the port on the host device changes identity based on what it's connected to. That wouldn't mean that you could suddenly run your hard drive off a 3.5mm headphone cable.

pdpi 8y ago
> Imagine for a moment that you had a magical morphing port That's mostly the case with Apple's devices where all ports support all functionality, but there's products in the market where some but not all USB-C ports are Thunderbolt- or USBPD-enabled. This becomes a royal pain in the arse, where you have a bunch of ports that all look like they should support the peripheral you're trying to plug in, but don't, for some reason.
- MBCook 8y ago
  So put a USB-C hub (because that’s the connector, what else would you buy?) into your Mac. And you plug your display into that. And it has some USB-C and Thunderbolt stuff plugged in. It used to all work, but now with the hub in-line your Thunderbolt drive doesn’t work and your display doesn’t get a signal. The hub must be broken, right? So you buy a new one. Same problem. How is any normal person supposed to figure this stuff out? You’re right. It’s a total mess.
  - pdpi 8y ago
    > So put a USB-C hub (because that’s the connector, what else would you buy?) into your Mac. This will eventually become a problem, definitely. Thankfully, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem right now because USB-C hubs are as common as hen's teeth (they're usually C to A, or C to a bazillion things)

sametmax 8y ago

And voip, and sharing files, sending encrypted emails, managing your contacts, taking notes on a computer, make a backup, simple photo edition, email clients, todo management, rss readers, deal with your encryption key, work in a terminal, packaging in Python... I find it a good news: there is always something you can take as a mission. There is plenty of things to do. And that's just the geeks stuff, not even talking about the important specie level issues.

mtgx 8y ago

The main issue here is that USB IF wanted to "please everyone" and had a very weak compliance process accompanied by a complex licensing scheme. This is an idea created by their own hand. Hopefully there will be a Type-C 2.0 or something where everyone has to implement either all the specs or none of them. And all chargers and devices must be 100% compatible.

bluedino 8y ago

I finally broke down and bought a generic USB-C charger (Insignia from Best Buy) to keep in the shop, because enough USB-C laptops come through and nobody ever brings a charger. But just because a laptop has USB-C ports doesn't mean you can charge using it, here's looking at you, Lenovo P51. This machine is a workstation and requires 130W, USB-C can only supply 100W so it won't charge at all over USB-C. Blah. Also had no luck even trickle-charging smaller USB-C machines like the HP x360 using a phone charger.

danbee 8y ago
Man, that sucks! I managed to trickle charge my 15" MacBook Pro with a 12W iPad charger once when I forgot the laptop adapter. Took overnight but it worked!
kevin_b_er 8y ago
Color me dumbfounded, but does "won't charge at all" mean it accepts 0A inward or that it takes in only 100W while still draining itself at ~30W?
- bluedino 8y ago
  Doesn't take a charge via USB-C, period.
bradstewart 8y ago
Same is true of my Razer Blade (2016).
kalleboo 8y ago
> Also had no luck even trickle-charging smaller USB-C machines like the HP x360 using a phone charger. That sucks, one of my favorite features of the new MacBook Pros is extending the battery life using a portable USB battery intended for phones

ohazi 8y ago

The one nice thing I can say about USB Type-C is that the physical connector is pretty great, especially when compared to Micro USB, which was awful. Of course, even here I have to add a huge caveat, as I've seen devices that charge at different rates depending on the orientation of the Type-C plug. facepalm

lucb1e 8y ago
From my n=1 experience with USB-C, I prefer micro-USB because the connection (female) is not sharp at the bottom of my phone. The one C connector I've tried (Xiaomi Mi A1) was so sharp it was just not comfortable to hold. This was one of the reasons I returned it and got another device with micro-USB instead.

TremendousJudge 8y ago

I see that laptops don't come with HDMI output anymore. How many monitors have USB-C inputs?

megaman22 8y ago
Not a one of the dozen or so that I have, between work and home.

jedberg 8y ago

People got really mad when Apple decided not to put USB-C on the latest iPhones. Now that's looking to have been a pretty wise choice.

jrockway 8y ago

I remember arguing with people when Type-C was new; they told me it would change the world, I told them it would never work. The problem is... they made everything optional, and thus when a user sees a Type-C port, they have no idea what to expect. Will it work with a device that requires Thunderbolt? Will it drive a DisplayPort monitor? Will this charger charge their laptop? Will this charger charge their phone? The answer to any of those questions is "it depends". Many Type C ports do DisplayPort. Many don't. Many Type C chargers will charge something that needs 5V, but not something that needs a higher voltage. The end result is that you end up with thousands of devices with the same physical connector that can't actually operate with each other. My favorite USB C device is Wacom's Intuos Pro pen tablet thingie. It has 3 Type C ports and needs DisplayPort input, USB 2.0, and 20V power. So there is not a computer in the world that you can plug it into with one cable, because I've never seen a computer that can output 20V over Type C. To get around that it, it has three ports and ships with a power brick... so you have two Type C cables going into it at a minimum. So close... if only they would accept 5V power. (I did some measurements and it uses only a tiny amount of power that is well under what can be supplied with 5V, but they appear to have reused the power delivery subsystem from their nearly-identical laptops, which do really need a lot of power to charge the battery.) I don't see the situation improving. When you have 3 versions of power delivery and at least 4 "alternate modes" to implement, nobody is ever going to implement them all. So people will always be connecting Type C peripherals to Type C computers and being disappointed. And there is no way for the user to predict what works, because it's not like anyone shares specifications of what's required ("this monitor needs 20V and DisplayPort Alternate Mode") ("this computer can supply 100W, and implements USB 3.1, DisplayPort Alternate Mode and HDMI Alternate Mode"). It failed. I look forward to USB Type D that has a more durable connector and doesn't allow "optional" extensions. Maybe that will work. But for now, it looks like I will be struggling with upside-down Type A connectors for the next ten years. Sigh.

MBCook 8y ago
I’m not sure optionality is the problem so much as they didn’t NEED to combine three things into one. If USB-C has video and USB it would be pretty great. Video could be optional but that’s easy enough. But Thunderbolt is a HUGE complication. It should have used some other connector and then this stuff would be easy enough to figure out but you’d still get plenty of benefit. Of course TB already used the Mini-DP connector, so that would have made video out a mess. And it was too late to fix that. And leaving all three separate is it’s own mess. I’m not sure there was a good solution at this point. Which seems like a lack of planning.

chx 8y ago

My highest score answer on superuser.com is about USB C https://superuser.com/a/1200112/41259 https://superuser.com/a/1200112/41259 and I had this to say after a long list of capabilities: > They really, really should have provided some way to clarify this mess but they didn't. If colors and icons with the big variety and the space constrains are not viable then provide a standard way for software to give a capability list to the user. Or a diagnostics tool that you can plug into USB-C and it gives you a list of "this port can provide signals A, B, C and accepts inputs D, E, F". Given the lack of that when plugging together two USB C sockets and the results are not satisfactory any of the following might occur: 1. The signal you want is not provided by the source 2. The cable is not capable of carrying the signal you want 3. The sink can't process the signal 4. It just doesn't work because of firmware bugs or driver bugs 5. There might be interference, there was a Dell problem where lowering wifi signal strength made Thunderbolt better.

SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
After reading through this thread, I was thinking something similar to what you are proposing is the cleanest way forward (except I was thinking numbers instead of letters). You could even get more clever and use colors, where complementary colors work together. Couple that with some error messages that mirror what you wrote in the last part of your post in software whenever you plugged in a USB-C device to a connector and I think the standard could be salvaged and even a relative pleasure to use given the background.
- chx 8y ago
  Out of the five points I wrote only 1 and 3 can be tested via a standard USB C tester device if it existed. 2 and most especially 5 is fiercely expensive to test and 4 is well, software bugs (firmware is just software, after all). You know how that goes.

ScottBurson 8y ago

I have a new MacBook Pro, an external USB-C HDD for backup, and an Android portable music player, also with USB-C. I got a cable to connect the HDD to the MBP, and it works fine for that purpose, but when I use that cable to connect the PMP to the MBP, it doesn't work: the MBP doesn't mount the PMP's filesystem. But if I use a C-male-to-A-female adapter, then an A-to-C cable, the PMP mounts just fine. Anyone know why?

ScottBurson 8y ago
Never mind — it's working now. I don't know why it didn't work earlier.

themagician 8y ago

Maybe it's just me, but I've had zero major issues with USB-C and can't imagine going back. I spent maybe $100 on new cables so I have one or two of everything. I only wish they had USB-C hubs so I could drop the USB Type-A connectors all together. I honestly find it much easier. The simplicity of just not having to flip he connector around 3 times every time you plug something in alone is worth it. It can be a little tricky to figure out what voltages/options are supported, but this has already gotten much better. This is really just an issue with manufactures not labeling things. On the cable end I feel like this is actually already mostly solved. Cable Matters gives pretty good specs for every cable. It's really device manufactures that kind of leave you in the dark. I'd venture a guess that if the USB consortium actually created an easy to use label with some good information architecutre that this problem would fix itself.

dawnerd 8y ago
There are some hubs out there but they're more designed for thunderbolt 3.
Tijdreiziger 8y ago
Who wants to spend $100 on cables?
- franciscop 8y ago
  I wouldn't mind at all if it means I only have to carry ONE cable for all my devices or risk not using them/paying for a new cable. I got 4 devices, and 4 cables: - Smartphone: USB-C - Laptop: 12v barrel charger - Kindle: micro USB - GoPro 3: mini USB My next laptop will be USB-C charging for sure, so at least the 2 items I use the most can share a charger. Now I don't mind so much, but when I was travelling/nomad it'd have made my life way easier.
  - jjrh 8y ago
    For micro and mini there are some adaptor thingies. I bought a few to deal with the couple of older devices I have with mini. One probably exists for USB-C so you only need one cable.

digi_owl 8y ago

The crazy part is that "reversible USB" was already a solved problem, by clever engineering of the A plug. Never mind that on its face, the C plug is a nice reversible plug. But then someone noticed all those contact points on one side that went to waste half the time, and thought they could cram even more signals down the wire, and here we are...

organsnyder 8y ago
Are you saying that some USB-C implementations are direction-specific? I've never heard of that problem before.
- digi_owl 8y ago
  Best i understand, they kinda are. But then the electronics at either end is responsible for negotiating what side is "up".
Dylan16807 8y ago
> thought they could cram even more signals down the wire, and here we are... How so? I'd say 95% of the complication would still exist if you only used the contact points on one side. You would eliminate 3.2 speeds (would anyone notice?), the video+data mode would be slightly different and slightly simpler... and not much else would change.

notadoc 8y ago

Say what you want about USB-C, but it has been a bonanza for dongle sales.

yathern 8y ago

I always hear how USB-C is such a mess, and everyone agrees - I just wanted to quickly provide a counter anecdote. As a user, who knows nothing about the protocol or the politics or anything else - USB-C works wonderfully for me - I only wish more devices used it. My laptop plugs into my monitor, provides more USB ports there, and audio out, which feeds into speakers. My dinky phone charger can charge my laptop, which I love. Easier to take around when traveling. No low points for me yet.

jaypeg25 8y ago
What laptop do you have? I'm in the market for a new one and thinking I'd really love to get one that's got usb-c charging
- aembleton 8y ago
  I have the Xiaomi Air 12 laptop [1]. It's charged from USB-C, which allows me to take one charger for my laptop, phone and headphones. It will not charge from a phone charger though, as it is not powerful enough. I have to use the one that came with it or a similar powerful enough one. I tried the ones in the Apple store and they power this laptop just fine. 1. https://www.gearbest.com/laptops/pp_416105.html?wid=1349303 https://www.gearbest.com/laptops/pp_416105.html?wid=1349303
Latty 8y ago
Seriously, this. I love reversible connectors. I love being able to use my phone as host or as client (charge a friend's phone from mine? No problem). Right now though, there are zero cases on the market with USB-C ports on the front, zero USB-C hubs that have all USB-C ports for downstream (I think there is one with two C, two A). Right now, I have my phone, my battery pack, and my yubikey on USB-C, and if I could find a hub I'd buy a ton of adaptors and switch everything to it. It's so convenient. It's this chicken and egg thing where even as an early adopter you just can't get it. I have the same problem with DisplayPort 1.4 - you literally can't get devices for it. I have a multi-monitor setup with 4K displays and would love a DisplayPort hub (or better yet, switch), that supported DP1.4 so I could hook them all up down one line (not enough bandwidth on pre-1.4 stuff).

ogig 8y ago

Just today I setup a Dell monitor (S2718D) to a new Macbook and was the first time I thought USB-C was nice. Out of one cable you charge the Macbook, output video to the monitor and get 2 very welcome USB ports from a hub in the monitor base.

Animats 8y ago

It's not just a 4-pin USB connector. It's a 24-pin connector with pins for USB, DisplayPort, Thunderbolt, Ethernet, and JTAG. Some of which may work. Do those 24 tiny pins hold up in use?

ohazi 8y ago
In my experience, yes, they hold up far better than Micro USB. The Type-C physical connector seems to be the one thing they actually managed to get right.

dawnerd 8y ago

I love it, mentioned it the other day in the thread about MBP gripes. One cable to connect everything. Way better than the older days of plugging in power, usb, displayport cables (and ethernet if thats your thing).

peterwwillis 8y ago

The biggest fraud of USB-C is it just doesn't do what consumers expect. I bought a USB-C device, expecting the device to then provide all the functionality that USB-C was advertised as having. But the manufacturer didn't implement any of those features, so it's just a non-standard cable that I need a dozen adapters for. What a joke.

lopmotr 8y ago
That's just expectations which will adapt quickly enough. I doubt you'll make the same mistake again. It's not just type C either I bought a USB 3.0 thumbdrive once and it turned out to be the same speed as a normal one, so even though it was 3.0 as advertised, there was absolutely no advantage in that. Nobody complains that their bedside lamp doesn't deliver the full 2400 W that the wall outlet advertises or that it doesn't allow bulbs more than 40 W even though the same socket can take 100 W bulbs in other lamps.
- peterwwillis 8y ago
  People do complain about lightbulbs. That's why lamps for sale list standard safety ratings, bulb socket types, and bulb capacities. But nowhere on my $450 phone did it say "No USB-C extensions supported, this is just a standard USB-3.0 device with a plug nothing supports". If you bought a bulb that said "CFL form factor" and it was actually an incandescent bulb that just looked like a CFL, you could arguably sue for deceptive advertising.
- Can_Not 8y ago
  > Nobody complains that their bedside lamp doesn't deliver the full 2400 W that the wall outlet I don't think the same information asymmetry exists for lamps that we have in USB C.

lopmotr 8y ago

What happened to enforcing trademark rights on the USB logo? Just about every obviously non-compliant 10m long USB extension cable or retractable power-only cable has the USB logo on it. Sometimes it's a bastardized form but it's basically still the logo. If they were more aggressive in eliminating these products from the market, even one-man Amazon shops, then at you could look at the logo to decide if it at least meets the spec.

pkamb 8y ago

I still don't understand why Apple did not release a USB-A + USB-C hub / dongle to replace the Charging Brick on their new laptops. Would eliminate so many of their USB-C issues just by having a high-quality port expander in the market.

djsumdog 8y ago

USB-C /w DisplayPort seems to work really well for monitors. If you have a monitor that can output a good amount of voltage, it is quite literally the only connector you need. At work the only cable connected to my MacBook Pro (running Linux) is a USB-C thunderbolt cable to a monitor which connects all my standard USB-A devices (keyboard, mouse, hub, flash, drives, etc.) At home I can do the same thing with my HP Spectre or Dell XPS 15 and an LG monitor (XPS complains about voltage, but it still charges). Viewsonic even has USB-C monitors that are KVMs too. You plug in your keyboard and mouse to the monitor and it will switch them on input select. Ultimately I'd really like to see a pure USB-C KVM that support DisplayPort 1.4 (no KVM does this currently) so you could have laptop power and full 4k+10Bit all from one cable.

FooHentai 8y ago

USB-C has somehow made docking stations take a big backwards step. Which is a huge shame because we finally got to a good place with USB3 docking stations, where weird ports on the underside of specific laptops could finally go away in favour of a highly standardized one-cord docking solution. 18 months ago we deployed USB3 docks into a sizeable office space. We were able to standardize on a model that works reliably, every time. The only down-side is the dock can't provide power. Now we're looking at a similar situation and USB-C is the 'obvious' choice. But it's a far more complicated situation. Some devices will take a charge, some won't, and you have to match up the power input/output requirements quite carefully. It's a more complex landscape than PoE, for no good reason. Thunderbolt docks are the only ones we've found to provide reliable operation, but they also suffer from weird docking/un-docking behaviour as well as massive security flaws since you lost a lot of the 'standard' USB safe/abstraction layer stuff by plugging in what is effectively a DMA device. Yuck, frankly. This shouldn't have been so difficult - Just take USB3, introduce a Power-over-USB capability, and bump the speed. But no.

mikece 8y ago

In order to solve the USB Type-C dumpster fire we need a new USB Type-D standard which is unambiguously and apologetically NOT backward compatible... which is usually an Apple move. Except if Apple invents it they aren't going to share it so there's no solution anytime soon.

Laforet 8y ago

A few years back I thought USB-C was a better mechanical design than Apple's lightning port. You see, the spring loaded parts were built into the male conductors on the cable while lightning had them on the female connectors of the actual device; judging from the number of broken USB and DC charging ports I have witnessed it seemed prudent that moving parts should be placed in the side that is more easily replaced. Well, I got what I asked for. I bought my first smartphone with USB-C connection by the end of 2106 and I'm on the 5th charging cable at the moment. The cable that came with the phone failed 6 month in and the $20 replacements (reputable brand with full fast charging capability while it worked) barely lasted any longer. I am hesitant to buy anything more expensive as they'd have a limited lifespan too. Meanwhile all my lighning cables and devices bought in 2014 are going strong. I did have to retire a couple of cables because the ends had started to fray but even those never really ceased to charge. My impression of USB-C so far gives me the vibes of early SATA ports rated to last 50 insertions. A lot of work is needed to make it on par with USB-B connectors in terms of physical reliability.

zbentley 8y ago

Another fun defect I've found while doing hardware support: some USB-C dongles (for various ports) are directionally sensitive (only work when turned a certain way. This isn't limited to cheap dongles, nor does it seem to be a physical (shaky port or loose connection) problem. I'd love to know why that's the case.

supertramp_ 8y ago

Believe me or not, I've bought a MacBook Pro with a 3rd-party usb-c Hub adapter and I've noticed whenever I plug it, it interferes with my hotspot connection (I don't receive any data from my hotspot anymore). Does anyone know anything about this?