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Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily gi

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that facade has faded away. Their accumulation of personal data, beyond what is necessary for them to perform their work. And now this. The utilization of their wealth and knowledge, to push forward the state-of-the-art in the weaponization of Artificial Intelligence. There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. By doing the military's bidding, then Google is now far scarier than Microsoft ever was. For those who don't know, when they coined the phrase, Do no evil, they meant it in relation to the Microsoft Borg of the 1980s and 90s. Microsoft now seems like a sheep in comparison to Google. I think it's time to disconnect Google from our lives. But, it's hopeless. They are everywhere.

rifung 8y ago
> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually the thing I don't understand. Could you or someone please kindly explain it to me? What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons? I've seen this whole "Google is betraying its 'do not evil' by working with the military" as fact so many times but I've yet to get a better explanation for why it's actually evil besides some variation of "the military is bad"
- DrJaws 8y ago
  Some people will see the evil as the country you are working for is known as the one of the primary aggressors and war initiators of the history that continues to kill directly and indirectly hundreds of thousands of people in other countries bringing them "democracy" where no one asked them for anything. Others will just see it as a necessity and that every company should work and help the government when they are asked to defend the country and maintain the global status quo. for some that conduct is a virus, for others just a symbiosis, but it's easy to see where they come both of them.
  - mc32 8y ago
    Well, what’s the alternate option? If the US hadn’t been the “police” of the world. It could have been Russia or China or India, would we rather have had them? And don’t say Europe unless you consider France and the U.K. and others and their things. We don’t live on a vacuum. If you create one, someone will fill it. I am loath to think of how much worse things could be despite the idiotic wars of Obama and W., I think the world is better off with the US guiding things rather than others.
    - hoppa_liza 8y ago
      If you boil down your statement into "I would rather have the Americans kill these people than the Chinese" you will begin to see the real meaning of what you are saying.
      - mc32 8y ago
        Maybe I’d ask the Vietnamese, who we fought, who they’d rather have, or the afghans who fought the USSR, who they’d rather have to get the meaning of what I’m saying. You can also ask the Pakistanis if they’d rather have US or India, go ahead.
        jstanley 8y ago
        "Who would you rather be oppressed by?" isn't a very convincing argument that you're on the right side of history. Just because there exist worse oppressors than you doesn't mean you're not evil as well.
meritt 8y ago
> Because it is a conflict of interest. No, it's not. That's entirely subjective. It's only a conflict of interest in the heads of people who believe the U.S. military is evil. The problem is that Google has a different interpretation of evil than yourself, and you're struggling to cope with that reality.
- Muanh 8y ago
  So the quote can basically mean anything you want it to mean? You just have to bend your definition of evil into whatever shape suits you.
  - meritt 8y ago
    There's no bending necessary. Google defined [1] what they meant in their IPO filing. > We believe strongly that in the long term, we will be better served—as shareholders and in all other ways—by a company that does good things for the world even if we forgo some short term gains So it boils down to the simple interpretation: Is helping the U.S. military consistent with doing good things for the world? Public opinion polls conducted in 2016 indicated that 78% of Americans trusted the military to act in the interest of the public [2]. So, at least among Americans, I think it's a reasonable conclusion that a majority of people view the military as doing good. [1] https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1288776/000119312504142742/ds1a.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1288776/000119312504... (page 32) [2] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/18/most-americans-trust-the-military-and-scientists-to-act-in-the-publics-interest/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/18/most-america...
    - repolfx 8y ago
      For what it's worth I also worked for Google for many years. And I'm hardly a shrinking liberal violet. I think it was stupid to fire Damore. But the mental gymnastics on display in this thread are depressing. Is helping the U.S. military consistent with doing good things for the world? Google has always been a global company with most of its users and employees outside of the USA. You can't even stop yourself talking about "good things for the world" here, even though you then immediately go on to talk about Americans only. But even if a slim majority of Americans support the Pentagon's drone strike program, the VAST majority of the world hates it: http://time.com/2986118/drone-strike-poll-pew/ http://time.com/2986118/drone-strike-poll-pew/ Anyway, we don't need opinion polls in this case. A definition of "evil" that doesn't include assassinating defenceless people is utterly useless and might as well be abandoned. The US isn't at war with Pakistan and Afghanistan is hardly a country to begin with, neither country has ever posed a military threat to the USA. So the drone program has simply become a self-perpetuating bureaucratic machine that eats lives on the flimsiest of pretexts and based on the most damningly absurd 'evidence' (like mobile phone signals), with the obvious consequence of mass deaths of innocent people. For instance at red weddings: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/13/world/middleeast/drone-strike-in-yemen-hits-wedding-convoy-killing-11.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/13/world/middleeast/drone-st... ... not just once, but multiple times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airs... I find myself so saddened by what Google has become.
aresant 8y ago
"By doing the military's bidding, then Google is now far scarier than Microsoft ever was." I understand your point, but Microsoft does an awful lot of business with the military. Last year they won a contract to put every employee in the DOD on Win 10(1). Not sure it's particularly MORE evil for Google to supply AI support to the Military than for Microsoft to enable the office drones systematically organize weapon shipments, troop deployments, manage body counts, etc. (1) https://www.geekwire.com/2016/microsoft-wins-927m-support-contract-u-s-defense-department/ https://www.geekwire.com/2016/microsoft-wins-927m-support-co...
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  Google will actively help develop vision systems for weaponized drones. Which, whether Google wants to admit or not, means they are developing systems which are going to target and kill humans. Microsoft sells a product that literally anyone (but Iran and North Korea) can buy. You can buy it or not. And you can buy extended support for it (or not). Do you really consider these the same?
- gaius 8y ago
  Microsoft does an awful lot of business with the military There’s never been any allegations that everyone’s Word and Excel documents are being read by MS, has there? Or that they read every email sent via Outlook and Exchange? Not the same thing at all
pjmlp 8y ago
I also use Google stuff, to an extent, but I never fooled myself that corporations are all about profit and their management board goals. Those that assign human behavig or ideas of better good to multinationals are fooling themselves.
apocrypher 8y ago
facing needing to argue with a person trained intensively from a early age to ground all conjecture in fact and human cost of mistakes, ie a general, I will gladly face that situation over aby necessary argument with a politician, even a more sensible type like as lawmaker. our world problems ate created by distortion of reality that no soldier would indulge or permit, none i ever knew at any rate
lajhsdfkl 8y ago
>We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. Working for the US military is not doing evil.
- ionised 8y ago
  It is if they are doing evil things, which they have done, a lot.
wiz21c 8y ago
Not to blame you but : >>> The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. who's fault is it ?
- intended 8y ago
  Lol, this can be fun- Attempt 1) googles fault! They made an awesome product! (and even promised at the start that they “won’t be evil”.) Attempt 2) the govts fault! They didn’t stop these firms from cornering the whole market! I don’t care that the govt isn’t prescient! Attempt 3) my fault! I was not able to withstand or educate myself to deal with the massive amount of technological manipulation and awesome product design thrown my way! I think blame is a non workable concept here.
afandian 8y ago
Google is very much on the verge of evil, but isn't there quite yet. Meaning that, as a daily paying user I'm at the stage of cognitive dissonance, but not quite at the point of walking. But over the past few days I have given myself a long-term life-goal: One day I will delete my Google Account. I will try and make all decision in accordance with this. I already don't have a Google (or Apple) phone, I use my own domain name for email. But there are so many tiny little ways you could lock yourself in (e.g. social auth into a valuable website). It's a big step to pull the plug and expunge Google from your life. But avoiding taking steps in the wrong direction at least buys you some time.
nunya213 8y ago
Boy you've bought into the Silicon Valley delusion fully haven't you. Lol, so many people on HN are shockingly ignorant of anything outside of their Uber-Liberal SWE bubble.

rifung 8y ago

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually the thing I don't understand. Could you or someone please kindly explain it to me? What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons? I've seen this whole "Google is betraying its 'do not evil' by working with the military" as fact so many times but I've yet to get a better explanation for why it's actually evil besides some variation of "the military is bad"

DrJaws 8y ago
Some people will see the evil as the country you are working for is known as the one of the primary aggressors and war initiators of the history that continues to kill directly and indirectly hundreds of thousands of people in other countries bringing them "democracy" where no one asked them for anything. Others will just see it as a necessity and that every company should work and help the government when they are asked to defend the country and maintain the global status quo. for some that conduct is a virus, for others just a symbiosis, but it's easy to see where they come both of them.
- mc32 8y ago
  Well, what’s the alternate option? If the US hadn’t been the “police” of the world. It could have been Russia or China or India, would we rather have had them? And don’t say Europe unless you consider France and the U.K. and others and their things. We don’t live on a vacuum. If you create one, someone will fill it. I am loath to think of how much worse things could be despite the idiotic wars of Obama and W., I think the world is better off with the US guiding things rather than others.
  - hoppa_liza 8y ago
    If you boil down your statement into "I would rather have the Americans kill these people than the Chinese" you will begin to see the real meaning of what you are saying.
    - mc32 8y ago
      Maybe I’d ask the Vietnamese, who we fought, who they’d rather have, or the afghans who fought the USSR, who they’d rather have to get the meaning of what I’m saying. You can also ask the Pakistanis if they’d rather have US or India, go ahead.
      - jstanley 8y ago
        "Who would you rather be oppressed by?" isn't a very convincing argument that you're on the right side of history. Just because there exist worse oppressors than you doesn't mean you're not evil as well.

meritt 8y ago

> Because it is a conflict of interest. No, it's not. That's entirely subjective. It's only a conflict of interest in the heads of people who believe the U.S. military is evil. The problem is that Google has a different interpretation of evil than yourself, and you're struggling to cope with that reality.

Muanh 8y ago
So the quote can basically mean anything you want it to mean? You just have to bend your definition of evil into whatever shape suits you.
- meritt 8y ago
  There's no bending necessary. Google defined [1] what they meant in their IPO filing. > We believe strongly that in the long term, we will be better served—as shareholders and in all other ways—by a company that does good things for the world even if we forgo some short term gains So it boils down to the simple interpretation: Is helping the U.S. military consistent with doing good things for the world? Public opinion polls conducted in 2016 indicated that 78% of Americans trusted the military to act in the interest of the public [2]. So, at least among Americans, I think it's a reasonable conclusion that a majority of people view the military as doing good. [1] https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1288776/000119312504142742/ds1a.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1288776/000119312504... (page 32) [2] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/18/most-americans-trust-the-military-and-scientists-to-act-in-the-publics-interest/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/18/most-america...
  - repolfx 8y ago
    For what it's worth I also worked for Google for many years. And I'm hardly a shrinking liberal violet. I think it was stupid to fire Damore. But the mental gymnastics on display in this thread are depressing. Is helping the U.S. military consistent with doing good things for the world? Google has always been a global company with most of its users and employees outside of the USA. You can't even stop yourself talking about "good things for the world" here, even though you then immediately go on to talk about Americans only. But even if a slim majority of Americans support the Pentagon's drone strike program, the VAST majority of the world hates it: http://time.com/2986118/drone-strike-poll-pew/ http://time.com/2986118/drone-strike-poll-pew/ Anyway, we don't need opinion polls in this case. A definition of "evil" that doesn't include assassinating defenceless people is utterly useless and might as well be abandoned. The US isn't at war with Pakistan and Afghanistan is hardly a country to begin with, neither country has ever posed a military threat to the USA. So the drone program has simply become a self-perpetuating bureaucratic machine that eats lives on the flimsiest of pretexts and based on the most damningly absurd 'evidence' (like mobile phone signals), with the obvious consequence of mass deaths of innocent people. For instance at red weddings: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/13/world/middleeast/drone-strike-in-yemen-hits-wedding-convoy-killing-11.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/13/world/middleeast/drone-st... ... not just once, but multiple times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airs... I find myself so saddened by what Google has become.

aresant 8y ago

"By doing the military's bidding, then Google is now far scarier than Microsoft ever was." I understand your point, but Microsoft does an awful lot of business with the military. Last year they won a contract to put every employee in the DOD on Win 10(1). Not sure it's particularly MORE evil for Google to supply AI support to the Military than for Microsoft to enable the office drones systematically organize weapon shipments, troop deployments, manage body counts, etc. (1) https://www.geekwire.com/2016/microsoft-wins-927m-support-contract-u-s-defense-department/ https://www.geekwire.com/2016/microsoft-wins-927m-support-co...

ocdtrekkie 8y ago
Google will actively help develop vision systems for weaponized drones. Which, whether Google wants to admit or not, means they are developing systems which are going to target and kill humans. Microsoft sells a product that literally anyone (but Iran and North Korea) can buy. You can buy it or not. And you can buy extended support for it (or not). Do you really consider these the same?
gaius 8y ago
Microsoft does an awful lot of business with the military There’s never been any allegations that everyone’s Word and Excel documents are being read by MS, has there? Or that they read every email sent via Outlook and Exchange? Not the same thing at all

pjmlp 8y ago

I also use Google stuff, to an extent, but I never fooled myself that corporations are all about profit and their management board goals. Those that assign human behavig or ideas of better good to multinationals are fooling themselves.

apocrypher 8y ago

facing needing to argue with a person trained intensively from a early age to ground all conjecture in fact and human cost of mistakes, ie a general, I will gladly face that situation over aby necessary argument with a politician, even a more sensible type like as lawmaker. our world problems ate created by distortion of reality that no soldier would indulge or permit, none i ever knew at any rate

lajhsdfkl 8y ago

>We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. Working for the US military is not doing evil.

ionised 8y ago
It is if they are doing evil things, which they have done, a lot.

wiz21c 8y ago

Not to blame you but : >>> The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. who's fault is it ?

intended 8y ago
Lol, this can be fun- Attempt 1) googles fault! They made an awesome product! (and even promised at the start that they “won’t be evil”.) Attempt 2) the govts fault! They didn’t stop these firms from cornering the whole market! I don’t care that the govt isn’t prescient! Attempt 3) my fault! I was not able to withstand or educate myself to deal with the massive amount of technological manipulation and awesome product design thrown my way! I think blame is a non workable concept here.

afandian 8y ago

Google is very much on the verge of evil, but isn't there quite yet. Meaning that, as a daily paying user I'm at the stage of cognitive dissonance, but not quite at the point of walking. But over the past few days I have given myself a long-term life-goal: One day I will delete my Google Account. I will try and make all decision in accordance with this. I already don't have a Google (or Apple) phone, I use my own domain name for email. But there are so many tiny little ways you could lock yourself in (e.g. social auth into a valuable website). It's a big step to pull the plug and expunge Google from your life. But avoiding taking steps in the wrong direction at least buys you some time.

nunya213 8y ago

Boy you've bought into the Silicon Valley delusion fully haven't you. Lol, so many people on HN are shockingly ignorant of anything outside of their Uber-Liberal SWE bubble.