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Canada is in a really tough spot here. I've always admired Canadian culture/values, and in the abstract, would love to live in Canada one day. However, as a Sof

• arcticbull 9y ago
  - Canada is already pursuing non-American engineers, even advertising along the 101 [1], and it's working [2]. - Canada does offer some tax breaks [3] and grants to startups, but more is also welcome. - Agreed that there should be a bigger focus on startups. I wonder if having provinces create VC funds (like Investissment Quebec [4]) tailored specifically to startups would help here. [1] http://mgalligan.com/post/52327738889/canada-h1b http://mgalligan.com/post/52327738889/canada-h1b [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-20/h-1b-workers-are-leaving-trump-s-america-for-the-canadian-dream https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-20/h-1b-work... [3] https://www.investinontario.com/incentive-programs-and-services https://www.investinontario.com/incentive-programs-and-servi... [4] http://www.investquebec.com/international/en http://www.investquebec.com/international/en
  • downrightmike 9y ago
    Don't want to pay any taxes, and maybe hire 1 person within 5 years? Try NewYork: https://esd.ny.gov/startup-ny-program https://esd.ny.gov/startup-ny-program
    • eriktrautman 9y ago
      Hiring anyone in new york is a bloody nightmare. Strongly avoid if possible.
      • alexhutcheson 9y ago
        Because the market is too competitive, or for some other reason?
        • eriktrautman 9y ago
          Actually was coming from the perspective of staying on top of all the regulatory agencies and bureaucracy, all of whom are very aggressive relative to ither states to take their pounds of flesh
  • tenpies 9y ago
    > and it's working While I agree that the efforts are working, this is very much like using a tea spoon to bail water out of the Titanic. You also have to consider that given a choice between the US and Canada, very few people would pick Canada so many of the people that arrive would leave the minute an opportunity in the US opens up.
• _xzxj 9y ago
  Canadian here (who lives outside of Canada but recently did a stint there for a bit) and this will sound negative but f-it. Canadian culture sucks when it comes to trying new things. Canada has some extra safety net but the culture is puritanical and conservative and nobody wants to go out on a limb and try something new and crazy. Not like Americans. Those that do are constantly questioned by everybody. The idea of being an entrepreneur, in the GTA especially, is buying a second house in the suburbs and hoping the housing market continues rising. The problem of trying to get Canadian tech up to par with the US is much deeper than pulling some tax/incentive levers, I think. There are some really deep cultural issues that I don't think can be solved for a few generations.
  • ajeet_dhaliwal 9y ago
    The idea of being an entrepreneur, in the GTA especially, is buying a second house in the suburbs and hoping the housing market continues rising. That had me LOL because I think it’s so true. If you were to suggest perhaps to start a business that innovates you’d be considered crazy. Although of course the new tech out of the USA will be adopted by all immediately.
    • vkou 9y ago
      You'd be considered crazy, because you can't throw a brick, and hit a VC that will give you money for a no team, no product, no idea startup. You'd also be considered crazy if you expressed those ideas in Chicago or San Diego, or Charleston, but that doesn't mean that we stereotypes about America not respecting 'changemakers' are accurate.
      • deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  • ryanobjc 9y ago
    The liberalness of Canada is overhyped. The reality is Canada is deeply conservative. It's possible to have universal health care and be conservative, that's only a oxymoron in the US. To quote this excellent article[1]: "the default setting of the Canadian male: a dull but stern dad, who, under a facade of apparent normalcy and common sense, conceals a reserve of barely contained hostility toward anyone who might rock the boat. To these types, those who make a fuss are bothersome and ignorant at best, and probably dangerous and destructive too." I was born in Canada. I went to school in Canada. Only once I moved to the US did I feel like I could express and be myself. That I am surrounded by people who think like I do and value the things I value. Dogmatic adherence to the way it's done, because change is dangerous is the default state of many Canadians. For those who it's not, well, you know them, they're already living in the US. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/opinion/jordan-peterson-canadian-deference.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/opinion/jordan-peterson-c...
• chrischen 9y ago
  It will be hard to get startups to be based in a Canada if their target market is the US. We’re talking a difference of 36 million people vs 300 million. When it comes down to it Canada looks big but is a really tiny country.
  • soperj 9y ago
    35 million but whatever. (edit: this was in response to it having 25 million people, not 36 million) It's kind of like saying that California is a really tiny state.
    • wjn0 9y ago
      That's a weird comparison, I guess you say that because California's population (39 million) is close to that of Canada's (36.3 million)? No doubt California is diverse, and by no means homogenous, but Canada... is physically huge, and relatively speaking, very sparsely populated. This naturally leads to more diversity within an already "small" population. To develop a business with a target market of "all of California" would be much easier than to develop one with a target market of "all of Canada."
      • soperj 9y ago
        Not really. The vast majority of those 35 million live in 3 really small areas. Just like the vast majority of california lives on the coast. California is a physically huge state by the way, that is fairly sparsely populated in big swaths of the state.
        • jgh 9y ago
          Unlike Canada, California benefits from a pool of ~290 million other people who self-select to move there with 0 barriers other than having a few dollars to buy a gray hound ticket.
          • soperj 9y ago
• topspin 9y ago
  Those are reasonable ideas, but they'll involve a lot of effort to move policy makers around. A simpler solution may be to rely on media sources that report a preferred reality. For instance: 4/20/18 Bloomberg: Engineers Are Leaving Trump’s America for the Canadian Dream https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-20/h-1b-workers-are-leaving-trump-s-america-for-the-canadian-dream https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-20/h-1b-work...
• ng12 9y ago
  > who are hesitant to move to USA because of immigration restrictions. Where does this perception come from? Canada has stricter immigration rules than the USA. EDIT: Specifically what I'm talking about is that Canada only allows in immigrants who are economically desirable and speak English or French.
  • josephjrobison 9y ago
    Kinda unrelated to immigration, but I've heard Canadian border patrol is actually more harsh than American border control. Anyone with experience that can verify?
    • Jare 9y ago
      During my years in Vancouver last decade, crossing the border to visit my brother in Seattle was such a stark contrast... Entering the USA I always felt like I was this close to being kicked back. From the faces, tones of voice, type of questions to the general atmosphere, all seemed intended to make me feel dominated. Crossing back to Canada was always fast and efficient, half the times the guards would even joke in good taste. I don't think it was the difference between being a visitor (to the USA) vs a resident (in Canada), because the couple of times I went abroad while I was a resident in the USA were very similar.
    • reaperducer 9y ago
      Back when you only needed a drivers license to cross the border, the Canadian border person looked at my Texas driver's license and said, "Texas, huh. Where are your guns?" That would be considered unacceptable and unprofessional at U.S. border control.
      • majormajor 9y ago
        Hah, I had exactly the same experience crossing into Ontario in either 2003 or 2006. We had six people and a ton of luggage and they seemed to be seriously considering searching all our bags just because of Texas IDs. :|
      • 9y ago
• jedberg 9y ago
  > Aggressively encourage/fund/facilitate startups. They tried that a few times. I know because I was an advisor to one of the biggest incubators in Canada. The government even gives cash grants to startups. But as soon as the company gets big, they either 1) open an engineering office in the Bay Area or 2) Sell, and the move to the Bay Area because they were just acquired by a Bay Area company who is making them move (or they just want to move now that they can afford it). The startup scene in Canada has huge demand from Canadian engineers who want to start startups there, but they have a really hard time attracting local capital. Most of their capital comes from SV VCs who like the fact that it is cheaper to start a company there because of the low salaries, and a lot of the successful exits leave.
  • mmt 9y ago
    > But as soon as the company gets big FTA: 'A lack of successful “scale-up” tech firms in Canada has been cited as one of the reasons research development spending and productivity here have lagged other developed countries.' > but they have a really hard time attracting local capital. So is the problem, then, that "trying" has, so far, involved running incubators and grants and what's necessary, in addition, is incentivizing local capital to invest? Other commenters have suggested tax breaks, which I personally believe is a state's greatest incentive "lever". Perhaps a lower (maybe even zero) capital gains tax rate on startup investments? Otherwise, it doesn't seem like there's been any aggressive encouragement/funding/facilitation, as proposed by the parent comment.
  • flamtap 9y ago
    This resonates with me. In a recent stint with a Canadian startup, an exorbitant amount of attention was paid to strengthening and increasing the number of ties we had to Silicon Valley. It seems so often that the end goal is to be able to move to California.
  • adverbly 9y ago
    > They tried that a few times. I know because I was an advisor to one of the biggest incubators in Canada. The government even gives cash grants to startups. This is news to me. I tried have tried talking to an incubator several times and every time they tell me to come back when I have $10k/mo in revenue. Sorry but I have a full time job and I can't grow a business to 10k/mo without some help. Seems to me like they didn't try very hard.
• walshemj 9y ago
  No Canadian companies need to pay more. I suspect that Canada has inherited from the UK the attitude that STEM (apart from the Medical profession) is basically for greasy engineers who shouldn't be allowed to get to above themselves.
  • lopmotr 9y ago
    Warning that your first sentence means the opposite of what you probably intended. I'm not trying to nit-pick grammar, but that's a kind of mistake that people wouldn't know was a mistake without the following context and you'd be completely misunderstood.
  • jonny_eh 9y ago
    And improve the weather.
    • toasterlovin 9y ago
      Vancouver weather is amazing. I know that’s hard for Californians to believe, but it’s true.
      • jonny_eh 9y ago
        It's good for Canada, that's for sure.
        • toasterlovin 9y ago
          I grew up in Los Angeles. IMO, Pacific NW weather is so much better. One season is arguably worse (Winter), but the other three are so, so much better.
      • mmt 9y ago
        You beat me to that comment! I grew up in California (and still live here), and I believe it because I've seen it in almost every season. To be fair, I do prefer things a bit cooler than most, but not necessarily "real" freezing winter. Of course, for those who want snow, the skiing mountains are closer than they are here in the Bay Area. Unfortunately, this is offset by very high housing prices relative to salaries, inadequate or absent freeways, and significantly higher fuel prices, making even a "drive 'til you qualify" strategy for housing unattractive. Is there adequate apartment stock near public transit? That could make it attractive enough for workers of a certain age, but, at least in the US, suburbs are remarkably popular for raising kids.
• rconti 9y ago
  I think they are. Canada is importing talent from Hong Kong and Shanghai to work for American and Canadian companies, at salaries that are below market in US tech hubs, but appealing enough for those who wish to move to North America. At the same time, Canada is exporting talent to the US because of those same good-but-not-good-enough salaries.
  • antb123 9y ago
    and France to Quebec..
• lhorie 9y ago
  > - Aggressively pursue the brightest non-American engineers, who are hesitant to move to USA because of immigration restrictions. This is an interesting point. I feel like Canada does do this, but it sort of backfires on itself. Something my wife once pointed out is that a lot of immigrant tech talent in Canada is inherently risk averse by virtue of being primarily chinese and indian tech workers, whose cultures are heavily conservative cultures that tend to celebrate social status over risk-taking innovativeness
  • netheril96 9y ago
    > a lot of immigrant tech talent in Canada is inherently risk averse by virtue of being primarily chinese and indian tech workers Aren't a lot of immigrant tech talent in Silicon Valley Chinese and Indian too? Or maybe even the majority? Besides, China has a very vibrant VC culture, second only to the US. Therefore being Chinese and being risk taking are definitely not in conflict.
    • seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      That isn’t true. A friend of mine told me that Kai Fu (the Paul Graham of China) said something to the effect that Chinese VCs for a long time had focused on copying because they were much more risk averse than western VCs (copying an existing business model was a more sure bet than doing something new). It has only been in the last few years that they have been breaking away from that. As for Chinese taking risks, I think you have to look at the alternative safer investments that basically don’t exist, you have no choice but to take risks in China, or in most other developing econonies for that matter.
    • pm90 9y ago
      > Therefore being Chinese and being risk taking are definitely not in conflict. I think the author is pointing out that being a Chinese/Indian immigrant is in conflict with risk taking. You don't have to look too hard for this. Most Chinese/Indian immigrants gravitate to low-risk jobs, specifically at larger companies, usually for visa/immigration related issues.
• nameisu 9y ago
  many people who are not getting H1B are going to Canada through express entry program. They plan to return to USA again after getting Canada citizenship on TN visa.
• guiomie 9y ago
  The is anecdotal, but it has happened often for me to meet people in Canada doing non-engineering work even tho they have an engineering degree from their home country, something about their education not being recognized in Canada, thus they end up being cab drivers.
• adverbly 9y ago
  I see trouble with pursuing non-american engineers. They might move south anyways later if the opportunity comes up because the salary difference is still huge. Lucrative perks sticks because of tax breaks like you mentioned. I would be going all-out on #3. Having local businesses has benefits beyond just avoiding brain drain as well. This is why it blows my mind at how little funding there is for early stage companies in Canada. I personally tried twice now already, as have several friends, and we didn't get anywhere because local investors here want you to already have a finished product with a validated business model and 10k/month in revenue. I'm sorry but the only way you stop a promising new grad from turning down a huge salary is by giving them the chance to work on their passion. Expecting them to already have a 10k/mo business is just a big F-you. Might as well go to the states where I can at least make enough money to take some time off. And heck, while I'm there someone might even fund my idea anyways.
• Pica_soO 9y ago
  Sorry, your strategy by asymmetry of the monetary forces involved can not work out for Canada. What really prevents braindrain on a large scale is stationary opportunity's. Take Shenzhen for example, it is one ocean away from California and should be constantly bleeding out towards it. The contrary is the case, due to the relatively cheap and flexible factories of hardware- being opportunities for which California cant or wont any longer compete. But shouldn't all these Chinese hardware founders create fab-less hw-design companies and mass-migrate? No, because connections and opportunities would not migrate with them. Such opportunities are usually created by long-term protectionism and clever industrial policies.
• IkmoIkmo 9y ago
  I'm left wondering how important a company like Facebook really is to the US though. I mean really, it creates about 10k high-paying tech jobs, okay... but Walmart employs 1 million. A lot of the support staff, e.g. in moderation, are distributed around the world. Then it generates tons of revenues and profits for its shareholders, but FB is a public company, it could in theory be completely owned by non-Americans who profit off of the American company. Then it provides a service to people around the world. And then it has strategic value, but it appears it was misused by foreign powers to manipulate domestic elections, rather than furthering American interests. FB does pay quite substantial federal taxes, far greater than it does in the rest of the world, you can't easily disregard that. The rest of the world is missing out on that, but that's also a question of the rest of the world not using its tax mandate fully. It doesn't appear like Facebook is tremendously more important to the US than it is to the rest of the world. Of course brain drain is always an issue we should be concerned about, but one feature of publicly-owned digital companies is that their benefits aren't as restricted to their locality as traditional companies are.
• prmths 9y ago
  > I've always admired Canadian culture/values What is canadian culture? What are canadian values? I've never heard anyone mention canadian culture or values before. > would love to live in Canada one day. You are one of the rare individuals. Most canadians I've met want to live in the US. Especially those with money or skills to make money. Better food, weather, culture, history, life, etc. > - Aggressively encourage/fund/facilitate startups. Unlike salaried employees, startups aren't turned off by the low-engineering-wages. Once Canada can grow 5-10 startups into major established companies with Canadian HQs, that will really boost the local engineering ecosystem and job market. But they can't compete because of scale. Canada isn't large enough and it certainly has too little internal talent to compete with the US. California by itself can out compete canada by itself. Thrown in the other 49 states. Even if canada retained all its "brains", it wouldn't matter. We outnumber canada 10 to 1 and outrank canada in every economic facet from resources, ports, infrastructure and foreign talent. Foreigners with skills, from china to india to the middle east to eastern europe, all want to come to the US to study and work. It's almost impossible for canada to compete with the US. They have nothing going for them vis a vis the US and their internal market isn't large enough to compete with the US.