28 ms·

I've spent the last two years building a new email client

874 points by muszc-master 8y ago

stratosmacker 8y ago
Sweet!! Will you support PGP?
blkhp19 8y ago
It's unfortunate that this wasn't build with a cross-platform core, but native, first class UIs for each respective platform. Edit: I realized this was worded very badly. I’m saying I wish this was written with a cross platform core, and native, platform specific UIs for each respective platform. For example, MS Office is written this way.
- reacharavindh 8y ago
  ?! I would've said the same thing with joy! From the title I was immediately hoping that this was not yet another bloated electron thing.
  - vijaybritto 8y ago
    But how do you think this is bloat?
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      I don't need yet another Chrome installation on my PC, one is enough.
  - blkhp19 8y ago
    I’m with you. See my edit, and sorry for the confusing wording. It’s late
- DC-3 8y ago
  Native UIs are how you get fast and responsive applications that don't chew up memory and CPU.
- red_admiral 8y ago
  I'd personally think "amazing" is a better adjective than "unfortunate" here - the value of an e-mail client, at least to me, lies almost entirely in its user interface. If using a native stack can squeeze out a few more tidbits of usability here and there, that's a good job well done. There's still a lot of value in native if it's done properly. Electron and similar technologies are in my opinion not quite at the point where they can compete with the best that native platforms can offer. I'm sure that will change one day, but we're not there yet. GTK integration on windows and mac is also less than perfect - I've been using geany on multiple platforms a lot recently and it's a great tool, but there's small annoyances like that the "swipe to scroll" speed varies massively between it and Notepad++.
  - nasredin 8y ago
    Notepad++ is also portable (can run from USB drive). Electron apps' installation process is just madness. It breaks every convention. You can't even choose the install path FFS! I think of Electron apps as BonziBuddy for today's hipsters.
  - blkhp19 8y ago
    Whoops, see my edit. We’re totally advocating for the same thing - my wording was just very very bad :(
- vijaybritto 8y ago
  He had 2 years not 5+
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    That is a matter of skills doing native UIs.
    - vijaybritto 8y ago
      Yes, exactly! Not everyone has the hardcore skillset to make great cross platform software. So much so that even behemoths like Microsoft write electron apps to get work done. He is using his web skillset to make a product that runs everywhere. If anything, this shows some serious good qualities in the developer that he wants to get the product to multiple people and not ponder over perfection.
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        Actually I meant that 2 years should be enough as well not 5+, given the adequate skillset. As for Microsoft, I think that have been invaded by JS devs on their way to re-invent and refresh the company's culture. Regarding the OP, yes he should be appreciated by taking the effort of spending two years doing this software, it is just a pity that it yet another Electron app.
      - ksk 8y ago
        Giving up 1% of performance every day will give you an app that is twice as slow. I think its a trade-off between productivity and performance. This skillset used to be non-hardcore just a few years back, just like programming using ASM used to be a non-hardcore skillset before that. The middle ground could be managed languages like C# or Java. >So much so that even behemoths like Microsoft write electron apps to get work done. But getting work done != release code. Sure, everyone writes ugly hacks to get stuff done, but usually its either an internal tool or a temporary stop-gap. >If anything, this shows some serious good qualities in the developer that he wants to get the product to multiple people and not ponder over perfection. If you're competing with other mail clients that already exist (not identical clones, but more or less similar) , would you want to release something that works or something amazing that takes time, but also has a high chance of not succeeding? Depends on your philosophy. Some people choose the latter.
abeiz 8y ago
Looks great! I'm always curious what it means when people say they've worked x years on something. Was this a full time project @ 40/h a week every week, or more of a few hours on the weekends, or maybe something in the middle?
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Hello! It has been full-time for the last 2 years!
  - _RedPanda 8y ago
    This probably means that the software is not going to be free, right?
    - discordance 8y ago
      I hope it's paid. This guy deserves to get paid for his awesome work, and I will trust it more if I'm paying $.
      - Boulth 8y ago
        I agree! I'm frequently paying for software even if I won't use it after a year just to test how well it works. Unpaid is not sustainable. But having source code (Maybe GPL?) is also important.
    - red_admiral 8y ago
      If the choice is between paying with money and paying with my personal data, managing my e-mail is one of the things where I'm happy to pull out the credit card. (That's why my e-mail accounts are on places like fastmail instead of gmail.) I get paid money for the software I develop too, after all.
      - SyneRyder 8y ago
        For some of us, email is so important that we are prepared to pay a LOT for a really great client. I'm currently paying around $150/year for Photoshop - email is more important to me than Photoshop. For the right program, I would happily pay $99 for a major release. I think that's what I used to pay for Eudora many years ago. Postbox currently only charges $40 for a lifetime free-upgrades license. In my case, they are definitely leaving money on the table, I would've paid a lot more.
tempay 8y ago
This looks very impressive. I'm currently looking for a new email app but my biggest concern with email applications is their longevity, do you have any plans for funding this? (I'm not so concerned what the model is, just that there is one.)
- Promarged 8y ago
  I agree this looks very good. I'm waiting for people to try it out and write some reviews to be sure it's not just a dream...
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Yes there is a plan, and I have on-going conversations with some interested parties :)
  - electrichead 8y ago
    There is also the option of Patreon
douglasheriot 8y ago
> Total privacy - we do not have access to your email account, Ivelope only sends your email data and password between your computer and your email server. I wish this was the default assumption these days.
geekuillaume 8y ago
What is the reason to build it as a native software instead of a webapp? Seems like a lot of email clients are now webapps and I can see the arguments why.
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Because of Privacy concerns! The thinking is that few people would enter their email and email password on a 3rd-party website, having it as a downloadable software ensures the privacy of users
  - crystaln 8y ago
    This doesn't make any sense as a motivation, let alone the primary motivation, to build a native app in the age of web apps. There's no real difference in security here and the user perception gain is marginal and ephemeral.
  - gerardnll 8y ago
    Although, in reality, that doesn't make it more secure.
    - qz3 8y ago
      On a desktop app, you can see what kind of request the program makes and which servers it contacts. With a webapp, you'll never know what the app does.
      - crystaln 8y ago
        How so? It's quite simple to tell what a web app does in my understanding. Chrome has many good monitoring tools.
        dillondoyle 8y ago
        The webapp can send your data wherever once it has the data, chrome won't log http requests if they were made server to server etc
joakleaf 8y ago
It looks really great! Which frameworks/libraries and languages did you use? What were the main challenges you came across?
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Thank you! This is built using Electron, so it is basically JavaScript. Given the interest of this post I'll try to make a blog post later on all the challenges and lessons learned
Flimm 8y ago
This looks amazing, I can't wait to try it out. My main problem with Thunderbird is that it doesn't have a conversation-based UI, but this looks like it does. Good stuff! (By the way, typo: "accessable" should be "accessible")
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Thank you for your comment, will fix the typo!
- newscracker 8y ago
  There is an extension for Thunderbird called Thunderbird Conversations [1] for a conversation based UI that provides a look similar to Gmail (though it may not look like chat, which is possible and would look nice only for those who exchange short one or two sentence emails). As that addon says, "Don't forget to hit View > Sort By > Threaded in the menus." to use it. Perhaps this extension would help you. [1]: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/gmail-conversation-view/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/gmail-con...
  - XorNot 8y ago
    I consistently have performance problems with that extension.
eigen-vector 8y ago
The product looks great. Feed is a fantastic idea, love it. Good luck!
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Thanks for your comment :)
  - vezycash 8y ago
    Are you familiar with outlook.com's sweep feature? It's the ultimate email management tool. And I hope you can add it fast.
    - muszc-master 8y ago
      I will definitely look into this!
rerx 8y ago
This looks very neat! Does it have quick to use keyboard shortcuts like the Fastmail or Gmail web interfaces?
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Yes it does!
tedeh 8y ago
I see you have registered a company. How do you plan to monetize?
- draugadrotten 8y ago
  Just a guess after reading on LinkedIn what projects he has been working on previosly, he might monetize by in-app purchases to unlock features.
  - zerr 8y ago
    What about default search engine integration? How one makes such deal with Bing or Google?
ircshotty 8y ago
Looks fantastic - a long queue for the beta, but would like to give it a try. Early yet - but any plans to support plugins?
dogma1138 8y ago
No offense but unless it’s a 1st party client email clients are something that is very hard to trust. Who controls your client has access to your inbox with most services even the few that have separate IMAP/POP3 passwords like Hushmail can be compromised through it. If your client also integrates with encryption or worse takes charge of it my encryption key is also now at risk. Lastly since email today is pure HTML you also inherit all the possible vulnerabilities that come with having a DOM parser and a layout engine and even modem browsers still get both wrong. And using something like Electron or even Chromium won’t implicitly save you because the way you implement them matters a lot and now you are tied with their update cycle which might break functionality forcing you to manually backport security fixes which is hard to accomplish. So unless you have the source or show an audit from a respected firm (c53, isec etc.) its going to be quite hard to recommend to anyone to take the dive and try this out.
- jannes 8y ago
  Unfortunately, I agree with you. I'm saying "unfortunately" because it's such a shame that this sector is so closed off to innovation from smaller players just because it has become too important in our lives. I might try this client with a throwaway email account, but never with something important.
- progx 8y ago
  Tust is everything. What does it change if you have an c53 audit of Version 1.0.0 and 1.0.1 has malicious code?
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    That is correct but it's a slightly different threat model that I don't want to tackle here. I'm not going to make claims that a developer would maliciously embed code into their own product but I do care about the quality of their code and their security practices at large (specifically how secure is their code promotion and binary distribution supply chain).
- going_to_800 8y ago
  No offense, but if everyone thinks like this we better not use email at all.
vijaybritto 8y ago
This looks fantastic, I was just thinking about so many of these features being released in gmail. Like the chat bubble. Those things really speed up reading information. Kudos!! Btw where are the electron haters?!
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Thank you! Yes I was expecting some comments about Electron, however I don't think it is really deserved. It is possible to build Electron apps that doesn't use >1gb of RAM, and this is what I've also been trying to do, when I've tested it on my old Macbook Air, it consumes around 300mb of RAM
  - vijaybritto 8y ago
    Yes exactly. Also, there are ways to offload some of the background tasks to Rust. If you can do that, your app is gonna be consuming way less memory even with new features. Please consider it!
    - muszc-master 8y ago
      Good idea, will look into it!
- SyneRyder 8y ago
  > Btw where are the electron haters?! Hi! I'm here! ;) I mentioned Electron in my comment, and Electron is a deal-breaker for me... but I would much rather encourage the work and effort that is going into this. If the product is successful and profitable, maybe it can be ported to native frameworks a few versions later. And considering the rumours about macOS, probably wise to avoid writing native Mac code just now.
  - apta 8y ago
    > And considering the rumours about macOS, probably wise to avoid writing native Mac code just now. What rumors?
kimusan 8y ago
looks nice - too bad it is not available for Linux.
- vijaybritto 8y ago
  Its electron, so hold on. Its going to be a matter of time I think!
- muszc-master 8y ago
  I've been getting a few requests to release it for Linux, and as the other commenter here, since it is Electron, it will not be very long before it can be released on Linux (compared to if it were a 100% native app)
SyneRyder 8y ago
This looks pretty cool, I'm really pleased to see people writing new email clients, and you've clearly worked very hard on this! I have a bunch of questions that I couldn't find out from the website (but are obscure enough that I shouldn't expect to): * Is this a purely native app, or an Electron / Javascript app? Personally I'm only interested in native apps & Electron would be a deal breaker - but I'm weird, most people won't care. * What format are you using for email archives? Mbox, Maildir? Can I import my Thunderbird / Postbox Mbox archives of 21 years of email? * Can I turn off threaded & conversation views? * Do you support POP3? (You only mention IMAP... I'm sure that would be fine, but I still have accounts configured via POP3.) * Can I change priority of individual messages after they arrive? I sort my inbox by priority and then date-descending, not by date. I'm a hardcore Postbox user and email is critical infrastructure for me, so I probably won't try it or switch anytime soon... but I'm always keeping an eye on powerful desktop email clients, in case I ever need to switch, or find something dependable that really blows away Postbox. Well done! Looks very promising!
- muszc-master 8y ago
  1. It's an Electron app, but it is built to use as little RAM as possible, when I run it on my old Macbook Air, it consumes only around 300mb of RAM maximum, which is less than what Finder consumes, and I consider everything over this limit to be a bug. 2. Currently not supporting Mbox/Maildir but downloading emails directly from the server, however an import of this is on the todo list 3. Re: turn off conversation view: not at this time. Do you prefer not having it in a conversation view? 4. No POP3 yet 5. I think you can achieve this using folders/labels in Ivelope Thanks for the positive encouragement! Edit: formatting
  - yani 8y ago
    300MB of ram sounds like a lot to me. What are you storing in memory that is that large? If I dont use the app for 1 hour will it stop using the memory?
    - muszc-master 8y ago
phnofive 8y ago
Looks very interesting. I personally would appreciate knowing I am entering my email into a waiting list rather than getting access. Also, why does there need to be a waiting list - to help stem the flow of analytics? Honestly curious. I really want a good, modern email client and I hope this can be it.
- muszc-master 8y ago
  The reason for having a waiting list is so that I can release it to a few people at a time. I don't want to release it to everyone at once, because if there is a large or annoying bug I haven't found. If I release it to a few people, let's say 50, only they will experience this possible bug and not everyone at once
dri_ft 8y ago
God bless you for working in a space—native email clients—which seems utterly neglected nowadays.
- PrimeDirective 8y ago
  It's not native, looks like an electron app
  - dri_ft 8y ago
    Maybe 'native' is the wrong word, but I meant non-web-app.
    - stephenr 8y ago
      Electron apps are web apps though.
      - wsy 8y ago
        Not sure if there is a common agreement about terminology, but my distinction is - web app: loads from a server and connects to a backend to perform its activities. Business logic is on the server. If at all, very limited offline capabilities - desktop app: is installed on the local machine, doesn't need any connection to a backend to work, works offline. I don't mind at all which technology the dev used to implement. Even nerdy metrics like memory and CPU consumption cannot be predicted from the used technology. So why should I care?
        stephenr 8y ago
        “Web app: renders the entire interface in a browser engine” is a pretty simple definition.
        themarkn 8y ago
        This is a simple definition but I think it lacks a couple important things: 1. It doesn't match the words. If that defines a "web app" then where does the web come in? I would think part of being a web app is that you can access it via the web and don't have to install it on your device. 2. Usefulness of the distinction to users. The specific nature of the bundled runtime for the code doesn't matter to anybody. It strikes me as pedantic to insist that because under the hood a thing is running in a browser we should call it a "web app". I think the most practical distinction is that web apps have a URL as the entrypoint. If you want to use it, you can visit the URL from any browser that supports the app. Web app requires a URL and a compatible browser. If instead you install the thing on your computer and run it from there, it's not a web app. It's a native app. No URL and it doesn't care what other browser you have installed because it comes with everything it needs. It's independent. How and why would users be expected to understand anything else?
dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
It looks wonderful! Finally a good candidate for a successor of Thunderbird! I just hope you'll manage to finish your project. By the way, when do you plan to release the beta?
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Thank you! Version 0.9 is out right now, and I have released it to a few people in the waiting list, I'm fixing bugs and iterating, so expect to get a download link pretty soon
amelius 8y ago
> Show HN: I've spent the last 2 years building a new email client Where is the corresponding "Ask HN: What requirements should I consider before writing a new email client?"
- jacquesm 8y ago
  Is it mandatory to consult HN before starting on something new?
- stevekemp 8y ago
  > "Ask HN: What requirements should I consider before writing a new email client?" Oh boy. I've written a mail client [1] (two actually) and I've found that people have widely conflicting requirements. Me? I wanted to replace mutt with something that was similarly console-based, and would use the same Maildir hierarchies. Other people demand GUI access, sometimes with IMAP, sometimes with POP3, and sometimes (very rarely) with just local Maildirs. If I were to begin again I'd probably abandon Maildirs, and instead just work via notmuch, or some other indexed-store. That would allow "virtual folders", and other neat things. I don't think I've got the patience to start again though, as my current client is already the second version. 1 - https://lumail.org/ https://lumail.org/
yani 8y ago
You are not weird. More and more people think that Electron is bad
- SquareWheel 8y ago
  This is an "all my friends voted for..." argument. Electron applications such as Slack, Discord, and VS Code have ballooned in popularity over the last year or two. Hacker News comments are not representative of the whole.
  - yani 8y ago
    It is not about popularity, it is about the resources Electron apps use vs native. The apps that you mentioned do not have good native alternatives. I cannot see anyone preferring a native app over Electron app if both offer the same features.
    - Insanity 8y ago
      Do you mean, you cannot see anyone preferring an Electron app over a native app?
      - oldcynic 8y ago
        That's almost never the choice though is it? Who offers an Electron app and a native app? So the choice becomes use an Electron app or something else entirely.
        Insanity 8y ago
        Electron app versus using their website I guess. In which case I use their website. But I agree, it's almost never a choice, but it's a hypothetical
        y_molodtsov 8y ago
        The choice is actually more interesting. Although big companies such as Slack potentially have resources to support development for multiple platforms, even they can implement new features faster due to Electron. Think about all those small teams that just wouldn’t be able to port their apps anywhere without it. So in some ways I’d probably prefer a good Electron app.
hestefisk 8y ago
Oh goodness, another electron app...
- kowdermeister 8y ago
  ...another electron app that wouldn't exist if the UI has to be done with a GL based UI lib by a single person.
  - hestefisk 8y ago
    Why so?
jk2323 8y ago
Well, I am curious. Seems so hard to get an email client right. I would not mind paying (GPG integration is a must). If you don't go the mutt/alpine route, there aren't much options. Basically Thunderbird and Evolution. Never really got Clawsemail and iscribe to work with my IMAP server settings. To make things worse, people do understand email less and less. Often, all ports except 80 and 443 are blocked and you can't even use IMAP/SMTP. And if you complain they tell you "What are you talking about? Gmail works...."
- muszc-master 8y ago
  During development of this client, I fully understand why there aren't more email clients out there. GPG is coming!
  - jk2323 8y ago
    Also, Gmails search function is a blast. Much worse in Thunderbird, annoying in Evolution.
    - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
      I recently switched from Thunderbird to Evolution and I have to say the search in the latter is bordering on completely useless...
    - billfruit 8y ago
      Gmail searching isn't really that great, it doesn't do stemming while searching, offline clients should be able to do better than that.
  - jk2323 8y ago
    Actually, there is another feature from Evolution you may want to offer for Gmail accounts. Evolution somehow stores a cookie or can log in via webbrowser or something like that. Evolution will never get you logged out of your Gmail account (yes, I have one that I use for some things). I travel a lot and Thunderbird will always get blocked by Gmail (Please log-in via Webbrowser to confirm your identity).
deleted 8y ago
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muvek 8y ago
This looks great. I have two questions: - Is this open-source? What is the license and where is the source-code? - When can we expect a linux version?
matt4077 8y ago
Not a fan of the logo in the top bar. It looks like one of those tacky “gaming” keyboards with a logo on the space bar.
raimue 8y ago
What would be the reason to limit access to the beta with a waiting queue? I can see reasons to use this approach for a web app, for which you have to ensure that it scales with the number of users. There is no such problem for a standalone desktop app, though.
- muszc-master 8y ago
  You are right in this respect, the reason for limiting access right now is that I don't want hundreds of people to experience and report the same bug, if I let a few users at a time try it, I can fix the bugs they report so the users in the next batch won't experience these bugs.
rqs 8y ago
Maybe sounds weird, but does it it support Usenet (NNTP) protocol? Or maybe make it support plugins so people can add features they want. Thank you!
brongondwana 8y ago
Of course I have to ask if you've looked at JMAP (http://jmap.io/spec.html http://jmap.io/spec.html). More because we're getting close to finishing the spec, and feedback from someone who's build a client recently about whether the spec suits their needs would be valuable!
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Hi! I really like the initiative of JMAP, however I haven't been able to look into it properly - I can give you a better answer once I've done that, my email is in my profile
  - chrismorgan 8y ago
    One of the things we’re really hoping with JMAP is that, by drastically lowering the barrier of entry (because doing IMAP/POP3/SMTP well is hard), people will be able to experiment much more, making things like Ivelope, because they can start making UI almost immediately rather than shaving IMAP yaks first. I have a talk planned entitled “building a fair dinkum email client in half an hour with JMAP”—because you genuinely can make a basic but useful email client that quickly! (I’m planning to submit it for Strange Loop. Any know of other conferences that would like such content?) JMAP’s support for both labels and folders may be helpful for Ivelope too. I love seeing a new approach to an email UI, based on the same old email that still works. Thanks for making it!
    - mike-cardwell 8y ago
      I'm not convinced that JMAP existing will make it easier for people to develop things like Ivelope. I don't know in this particular case, but if I were writing Ivelope I wouldn't first write an IMAP library of my own. I'd use an existing one. And all commonly used languages have pre-existing IMAP libraries anyway. I doubt the ability to do "var client = new JMAP()" instead of "var client = new IMAP()" will lead to a flood of new clients.
      - chrismorgan 8y ago
therealidiot 8y ago
Does this do any kind of telemetry at all? Looks nice, would be interested to take a look if/when a Linux build was available
tobyhinloopen 8y ago
This is just advertising... showing a product on HN, but requiring you to "invite" others? Too bad, I was actually willing to try the software. I'm not going to invite others if others can't use the software, or without trying it for myself first...
- muszc-master 8y ago
  I'm sorry if it came across as advertising, let me clarify: you NEVER have to invite others to get access, however if you do, you have the chance to get access sooner - I think this is fair. I definitely understand your concern of not sharing it and you do not have to share it to get access.
  - mcintyre1994 8y ago
    That sounds reasonable enough, but how fast is your queue moving? I'm 3,800 something - will I remember this show HN when I get access? :)
y_molodtsov 8y ago
Will definitely try it out, it’s really hard to find a perfect client. I wonder when will we be ready to finally drop copying the entire fricking thread with each email, since all email clients automatically build the thread. If you need to forward it to someone, it’d be easier to replicate that functionality on the client side.
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Thank you! This is one of the problems I'm trying to solve - although not fully implemented yet in the beta
yaantc 8y ago
Thanks for your interest in local email clients, more choice there is welcome! In the description it is said one can file email with a key, by associating folders to keys. Keyboard operation is very important to me. However direct key/folder association doesn't scale to a large number of folders. Have you considered a feature like the "Nostalgy" extension for Thunderbird? [1] With Nostalgy one type "s" to file/save an email, then a string which is matched to folder names. It's a bit like helm for emacs (except it's exact match, space is not interpreted as an "AND" like with helm). The commands are go/save/copy, and then string match. This scales very well. That could be an advanced feature, as for beginners the direct key/folder association is simpler. But I guess you will target advanced users too, and for them it may be an important feature. [1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/nostalgy/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/nostalgy/
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Sounds cool, will check it out!
- vanous 8y ago
  Claws mail had this by default. Thunderbird fortunately via the Nostalgy extension. It's been a lifesaver since claws mail never implemented HTML mail, forcing me to move to Thunderbird for 21st century text formatting ten years ago.
sbr464 8y ago
I have a side question for those who dislike electron apps (or prefer native): 1. Which OS do you use use? I'd love to know if it's skewed to a particular OS to know which platform to prioritize a native client.
samueldavid 8y ago
how did you sustain yourself working on this fulk time for free?
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Noodles and savings
christopheraue 8y ago
This looks interesting. One can see the two years of work that went into this. Is there a way to follow the development as a bystander? Something like a newsletter, blog, twitter or any other kind of feed?
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Thank you for your feedback! If you sign up for an invite, I'll let you know once something like this is up and running.
jakeogh 8y ago
It's not a client, when gmail changed it's TOS to use your messages, I wrote gpgmda. Found sup!? alot? notmuch. https://github.com/jakeogh/gpgmda https://github.com/jakeogh/gpgmda
toto007 8y ago
Why do you spent 2 year of your live to build a new email client? Aren't there quite software per this scope?
toto007 8y ago
Why do you spend 2 year of your live to build a new email client? Aren't there enought software for this scope?
sametmax 8y ago
The field really needs this so good luck. I'll test the first release that works on my os. I
mike-cardwell 8y ago
Has anyone tested this using https://www.emailprivacytester.com https://www.emailprivacytester.com yet? If not, please do so and report back here. I would test myself but I'm stuck in the queue for access.
mike-cardwell 8y ago
Does this have support for OpenPGP? If not, you might want to take a look at https://github.com/openpgpjs/openpgpjs https://github.com/openpgpjs/openpgpjs which does all the heavily lifting for you. Although it would also be useful if it could talk to a locally running gpg-agent so it would work with smartcards/yubikeys etc.
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Doesn't support it as of yet, however it has been requested by many and is on my todolist.
  - Boulth 8y ago
    Is there a public tracker for these requests? I'd be happy to be informed when OpenPGP support is available. Enigmail started to behave really weird since version 2 and your client looks incredible!
ramijames 8y ago
Fuck man, just let me use it.
- muszc-master 8y ago
  What's the features you're mostly looking forward to? I'll see what I can do :P
quakenul 8y ago
Super cool! ctrl+f on "price" or "cost" turns up nothing. Well then, what is your business model going to be?
ynniv 8y ago
I don't think this puts enough emphasis on the fact that it is a local client and not a web service. I see some people here griping about Electron, but the privacy implications of being a local app are way more important than the performance of the framework used.
- muszc-master 8y ago
  I agree with you. The discussion has somewhat de-railed off-topic into a discussion about Electron. While that is an interesting discussion, it is pretty off-topic.
  - Skunkleton 8y ago
    Is it off topic though? This is HN after all.
- Qwertie 8y ago
  Seems to be a proprietary application so app privacy went out the window already.
  - ynniv 8y ago
    Privacy is a spectrum. You can choose to be at one end of it, but not everyone shares your opinion. As a local app your data has a different legal status, and you actually have a lot of control over the execution compared to a web service. For instance, with outgoing firewall rules you could ensure that this is only talking to your email server.
  - Mononokay 8y ago
    You can audit the code of every Electron app, so why are you acting like it's full of spyware that you'll never be able to have privacy with?
    - hjek 8y ago
      Ever heard of minimized JavaScript[0]? [0]: https://github.com/google/closure-compiler https://github.com/google/closure-compiler
fourseventy 8y ago
+1 for the Office Space references
EdSeegar 8y ago
It's funny how everyone has a extremely specific set of requirements, most of time for technical reasons. Does say something about e-mail in 2018 I guess.
mmargerum 8y ago
I always thought it would be nice if the major os vendors provided some way of building these types of local run web app using a shared engine the os provided. Not just a web view, but a way to build the ui using web tech but also exposing the file system and other things. I guess it would be hard to secure but it’s not any worse than running unsigned eclectron apps.
brightball 8y ago
Nice! This has a ton of potential and I really like the way that you've approached things here. Does the calendar sync up to the various calendar providers (Google, Apple, etc) as well?
- muszc-master 8y ago
  It will very soon, that's one of the most requested features by my current beta users
speby 8y ago
This is awesome. And very well done. It is clear that a lot of effort and time went into building and polishing this, especially for a single person. Impressive! I signed up for the list too. Looking fwd to trying it out.
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Thank you!
cdnsteve 8y ago
Whats the business model around this or funding plans? Freemuim, paid software, ads, selling data? How sustainable is this project?
samstave 8y ago
I love it. The fwd with attachment should be no 1 to fix though
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Thanks for the feedback, fwd attachment priority noted
samstave 8y ago
Hope @pg will see this - as he called for better email years ago
davidcollantes 8y ago
I love the implementation, I can't wait to play with it, and even use it! A question, is it a pure email client, or an email client behind a value added service (it relies on a server you run somewhere)? Thanks!
- muszc-master 8y ago
  It's a pure email client! We do not have a third party server processing your emails, your data goes only directly between your computer and your email server.
  - davidcollantes 8y ago
    Excellent, thank you much! In queue. :-)
- davidcollantes 8y ago
  Found it on your website: > Total privacy - we do not have access to your email account, Ivelope only sends your email data and password between your computer and your email server. Neat!
fouc 8y ago
The chat-like interface looks great! kudos!
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Thanks!
  - flas9sd 8y ago
    having recently heard of autocrypt and delta.chat, I thought time is ripe for somebody to use this view in a regular email client. The demo video seemed to have exactly implemented this, I'm impressed.
shaaaaawn 8y ago
Love the work you put into this and the detail put into describing the features. One thing missing from the site. Why did you make it?
- muszc-master 8y ago
  I felt that email clients hasn't changed much in the last 20 years and that there is a lot of improvements that can be done in this space, please note, the features that exists now in Ivelope consists of just a small percentage of what will come...
Rjevski 8y ago
Electron = no thanks. I might as well use my provider’s web interface then.
marek995 8y ago
Can't wait to try out the Linux version!
- purple-again 8y ago
  Its made with Electron so my understanding is it should work on Windows/Linux/Mac out of the box!
  - BuildTheRobots 8y ago
    Electron? The obvious snarky comment has to then be "oh and it should manage to be slower than Thunderbird out of the box, too!" I hope he's had better luck integrating spell check than the RamBox devs have ;) edit: yes, I would love to test it and provide numbers rather than just snark - I just have to wait for the ~5,000 people ahead of me in the queue to have their software pressed to disk and posted to them before it's my turn o.0
    - muszc-master 8y ago
      Haha "pressed to disk and posted" that was a fun remark :)
      - BuildTheRobots 8y ago
        I'm baffled as to why I have to queue for something that's neither a physical product nor a service platform. Doubly so when the link posted seems to just bump someone else up the queue. As a hacker news link it does strike me as a form of clickbait (and it honestly winds me up); "Hey HN! come look at this thing I've built that I'm not letting you look at!"
        muszc-master 8y ago
        Since I am only one developer currently, and there will probably be bugs, I don't want thousands of people having the same bug, this is the reason I'm not releasing it right away.
salimmadjd 8y ago
I put my name on the waitlist, but instantly lost interest and confidence by: “Jump forward 5 steps in the line for every person you invite and get beta access sooner.” Why? If the product is that good I’ll evangelize it. This is a desktop application, so I don’t see a big boost from a network effect. All this does makes me wonder if the product is more about building hype than value
- adamnemecek 8y ago
  I think that that one email app that got acquired by dropbox before even launching did this and I think people are just copying it.
  - brianjking 8y ago
    Yeah, Mailbox app used this prior to it's Dropbox acquisition. Mailbox is now a dead product. RIP.
    - pmarreck 8y ago
      Why would Dropbox (note: not remotely an email service) acquire Mailbox and then kill it?
      - lgregg 8y ago
        They probably saw something in their software to strip for Dropbox.
      - adamnemecek 8y ago
        Acquihire.
        pmarreck 8y ago
        This answer makes the most sense, but is still sad
      - 8y ago
jscholes 8y ago
> Use Ivelope with your current email adresses. adresses -> addresses
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Oops, second typo found. (I'm not a native speaker if that's an excuse :P)
ComodoHacker 8y ago
I've searched the page for the word "offline", was disappointed. Searched this thread for the word "electron", was disappointed again. Then I've signed up nevertheless, because the need for a good modern email client is strong.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
zengid 8y ago
Speaking of desktop, has anyone else seen Proton Native? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16978901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16978901
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
danmg 8y ago
Would be nice to see a feature comparison with Thunderbird. What exactly can this do that Thunderbird can't?
- muszc-master 8y ago
  To give some examples: quick-move folders, conversation view, feed view, one click filter-creation and newsletter/promo filter
  - danmg 8y ago
    Seems like a lot of these are covered by Thunderbird plug-ins with the added advantage of having a native application.
dhruvb14 8y ago
I find it crazy that everyone is harping on Electron instead of the cool features that this clearly has that most clients do not. Demo looked pretty polished dude. Don't let the typical HN crowd rain on your parade. The fact that you posted an actual product out to the public is more than most can say. Also: If you can't spare Max 300MB ram and you are complaining on HN wtf computer do you use?
- Can_Not 8y ago
  What kind of computer an I using? I'm using a work computer that needs RAM for the actual work I do. If one auxiliary program used 300MB that would not be a big deal. But we're talking about electron MVP after electron MVP after electron MVP endlessly. Memory hogging electron MVP's are being released at 100x the speed of my computer's RAM growth. I bought a high RAM computer because I already need it for work, not because I want to fill it with Electron MVPs.
- CryoLogic 8y ago
  Half of Hackernews is discussion about six figure tech salaries, the other half is complaints about 300mb (aka ~$2) ram being to expensive for an app. https://www.anandtech.com/show/9864/price-of-ddr4-memory-drops-nearly-40-in-six-months-and-will-keep-declining https://www.anandtech.com/show/9864/price-of-ddr4-memory-dro...
  - gruez 8y ago
    and what about people who use electron apps that aren't silicon valley programmers?
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      They can't properly voice their complaints because they don't know why their software is terrible; just that it is terrible.
  - Barraketh 8y ago
    Yup, but we're all running these apps on laptops, which have a fixed amount of RAM that is sometimes impossible to increase (looking at you, Apple)
epx 8y ago
Quite a challenge you chose for yourself, I respect that! There are very, very few passable email clients in this world: Thunderbird, Mail.app (macOS and iOS) and GMail Web client.
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Indeed it was and is. My goal is to put Ivelope on that list
sslalready 8y ago
Looks great. Would love to try it out when it goes out of beta. For testning the privacy when it comes to email rendering, have you tried this excellent service? https://www.emailprivacytester.com https://www.emailprivacytester.com
- muszc-master 8y ago
  Yes I have and in the latest release which I'm working on, I've included features trying with the goal of fully complying with this tool.
parliament32 8y ago
No Linux version (yet?), unfortunately. Looks nice though from the screenshots!
jrochkind1 8y ago
Wow, people really feel personally attacked by an app released using Electron. Weird.
analreceiver 8y ago
The demo looks great! Consider crowd-sourcing an american voice-over actor, it might add a lot of value for very little cost.
graeme 8y ago
Can the filters be exported for import into gmail, etc? I have a lot of gmail filters for auto archive or auto forwarding. I like to keep them at that level so that changing clients doesnlt mean I lose my filters. Does make it a pain to make new filters though if I’m in a 3rd party client.
znpy 8y ago
Another browser running on my computer ? Thanks but no. Also, what kind of software license does it use? Is it open source? is it free software? Is it proprietary? Once I sign up, how will my email address be used? Will it be abused? It did not ask for any permission nor I agreed to any terms. He seems to be from Sweden, doesn't he know about GDPR?
gwbennett 8y ago
Congrats on working hard and shipping an app!
wedgeantilles 8y ago
Why?
newsat13 8y ago
Is there any pricing information?
alexashka 8y ago
Forgive my ignorance - can someone do a very short explanation of the killer features here? I don't send or receive a lot of emails - none of the features jumped out at me as doing something gmail or the default mac mail app is missing and I wish it had.

874 points by muszc-master 8y ago

Sweet!! Will you support PGP?

It's unfortunate that this wasn't build with a cross-platform core, but native, first class UIs for each respective platform. Edit: I realized this was worded very badly. I’m saying I wish this was written with a cross platform core, and native, platform specific UIs for each respective platform. For example, MS Office is written this way.

reacharavindh 8y ago
?! I would've said the same thing with joy! From the title I was immediately hoping that this was not yet another bloated electron thing.
- vijaybritto 8y ago
  But how do you think this is bloat?
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    I don't need yet another Chrome installation on my PC, one is enough.
- blkhp19 8y ago
  I’m with you. See my edit, and sorry for the confusing wording. It’s late
DC-3 8y ago
Native UIs are how you get fast and responsive applications that don't chew up memory and CPU.
red_admiral 8y ago
I'd personally think "amazing" is a better adjective than "unfortunate" here - the value of an e-mail client, at least to me, lies almost entirely in its user interface. If using a native stack can squeeze out a few more tidbits of usability here and there, that's a good job well done. There's still a lot of value in native if it's done properly. Electron and similar technologies are in my opinion not quite at the point where they can compete with the best that native platforms can offer. I'm sure that will change one day, but we're not there yet. GTK integration on windows and mac is also less than perfect - I've been using geany on multiple platforms a lot recently and it's a great tool, but there's small annoyances like that the "swipe to scroll" speed varies massively between it and Notepad++.
- nasredin 8y ago
  Notepad++ is also portable (can run from USB drive). Electron apps' installation process is just madness. It breaks every convention. You can't even choose the install path FFS! I think of Electron apps as BonziBuddy for today's hipsters.
- blkhp19 8y ago
  Whoops, see my edit. We’re totally advocating for the same thing - my wording was just very very bad :(
vijaybritto 8y ago
He had 2 years not 5+
- pjmlp 8y ago
  That is a matter of skills doing native UIs.
  - vijaybritto 8y ago
    Yes, exactly! Not everyone has the hardcore skillset to make great cross platform software. So much so that even behemoths like Microsoft write electron apps to get work done. He is using his web skillset to make a product that runs everywhere. If anything, this shows some serious good qualities in the developer that he wants to get the product to multiple people and not ponder over perfection.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Actually I meant that 2 years should be enough as well not 5+, given the adequate skillset. As for Microsoft, I think that have been invaded by JS devs on their way to re-invent and refresh the company's culture. Regarding the OP, yes he should be appreciated by taking the effort of spending two years doing this software, it is just a pity that it yet another Electron app.
    - ksk 8y ago
      Giving up 1% of performance every day will give you an app that is twice as slow. I think its a trade-off between productivity and performance. This skillset used to be non-hardcore just a few years back, just like programming using ASM used to be a non-hardcore skillset before that. The middle ground could be managed languages like C# or Java. >So much so that even behemoths like Microsoft write electron apps to get work done. But getting work done != release code. Sure, everyone writes ugly hacks to get stuff done, but usually its either an internal tool or a temporary stop-gap. >If anything, this shows some serious good qualities in the developer that he wants to get the product to multiple people and not ponder over perfection. If you're competing with other mail clients that already exist (not identical clones, but more or less similar) , would you want to release something that works or something amazing that takes time, but also has a high chance of not succeeding? Depends on your philosophy. Some people choose the latter.

abeiz 8y ago

Looks great! I'm always curious what it means when people say they've worked x years on something. Was this a full time project @ 40/h a week every week, or more of a few hours on the weekends, or maybe something in the middle?

muszc-master 8y ago
Hello! It has been full-time for the last 2 years!
- _RedPanda 8y ago
  This probably means that the software is not going to be free, right?
  - discordance 8y ago
    I hope it's paid. This guy deserves to get paid for his awesome work, and I will trust it more if I'm paying $.
    - Boulth 8y ago
      I agree! I'm frequently paying for software even if I won't use it after a year just to test how well it works. Unpaid is not sustainable. But having source code (Maybe GPL?) is also important.
  - red_admiral 8y ago
    If the choice is between paying with money and paying with my personal data, managing my e-mail is one of the things where I'm happy to pull out the credit card. (That's why my e-mail accounts are on places like fastmail instead of gmail.) I get paid money for the software I develop too, after all.
    - SyneRyder 8y ago
      For some of us, email is so important that we are prepared to pay a LOT for a really great client. I'm currently paying around $150/year for Photoshop - email is more important to me than Photoshop. For the right program, I would happily pay $99 for a major release. I think that's what I used to pay for Eudora many years ago. Postbox currently only charges $40 for a lifetime free-upgrades license. In my case, they are definitely leaving money on the table, I would've paid a lot more.

tempay 8y ago

This looks very impressive. I'm currently looking for a new email app but my biggest concern with email applications is their longevity, do you have any plans for funding this? (I'm not so concerned what the model is, just that there is one.)

Promarged 8y ago
I agree this looks very good. I'm waiting for people to try it out and write some reviews to be sure it's not just a dream...
muszc-master 8y ago
Yes there is a plan, and I have on-going conversations with some interested parties :)
- electrichead 8y ago
  There is also the option of Patreon

douglasheriot 8y ago

> Total privacy - we do not have access to your email account, Ivelope only sends your email data and password between your computer and your email server. I wish this was the default assumption these days.

geekuillaume 8y ago

What is the reason to build it as a native software instead of a webapp? Seems like a lot of email clients are now webapps and I can see the arguments why.

muszc-master 8y ago
Because of Privacy concerns! The thinking is that few people would enter their email and email password on a 3rd-party website, having it as a downloadable software ensures the privacy of users
- crystaln 8y ago
  This doesn't make any sense as a motivation, let alone the primary motivation, to build a native app in the age of web apps. There's no real difference in security here and the user perception gain is marginal and ephemeral.
- gerardnll 8y ago
  Although, in reality, that doesn't make it more secure.
  - qz3 8y ago
    On a desktop app, you can see what kind of request the program makes and which servers it contacts. With a webapp, you'll never know what the app does.
    - crystaln 8y ago
      How so? It's quite simple to tell what a web app does in my understanding. Chrome has many good monitoring tools.
      - dillondoyle 8y ago
        The webapp can send your data wherever once it has the data, chrome won't log http requests if they were made server to server etc

joakleaf 8y ago

It looks really great! Which frameworks/libraries and languages did you use? What were the main challenges you came across?

muszc-master 8y ago
Thank you! This is built using Electron, so it is basically JavaScript. Given the interest of this post I'll try to make a blog post later on all the challenges and lessons learned

Flimm 8y ago

This looks amazing, I can't wait to try it out. My main problem with Thunderbird is that it doesn't have a conversation-based UI, but this looks like it does. Good stuff! (By the way, typo: "accessable" should be "accessible")

muszc-master 8y ago
Thank you for your comment, will fix the typo!
newscracker 8y ago
There is an extension for Thunderbird called Thunderbird Conversations [1] for a conversation based UI that provides a look similar to Gmail (though it may not look like chat, which is possible and would look nice only for those who exchange short one or two sentence emails). As that addon says, "Don't forget to hit View > Sort By > Threaded in the menus." to use it. Perhaps this extension would help you. [1]: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/gmail-conversation-view/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/gmail-con...
- XorNot 8y ago
  I consistently have performance problems with that extension.

eigen-vector 8y ago

The product looks great. Feed is a fantastic idea, love it. Good luck!

muszc-master 8y ago
Thanks for your comment :)
- vezycash 8y ago
  Are you familiar with outlook.com's sweep feature? It's the ultimate email management tool. And I hope you can add it fast.
  - muszc-master 8y ago
    I will definitely look into this!

rerx 8y ago

This looks very neat! Does it have quick to use keyboard shortcuts like the Fastmail or Gmail web interfaces?

muszc-master 8y ago
Yes it does!

tedeh 8y ago

I see you have registered a company. How do you plan to monetize?

draugadrotten 8y ago
Just a guess after reading on LinkedIn what projects he has been working on previosly, he might monetize by in-app purchases to unlock features.
- zerr 8y ago
  What about default search engine integration? How one makes such deal with Bing or Google?

ircshotty 8y ago

Looks fantastic - a long queue for the beta, but would like to give it a try. Early yet - but any plans to support plugins?

dogma1138 8y ago

No offense but unless it’s a 1st party client email clients are something that is very hard to trust. Who controls your client has access to your inbox with most services even the few that have separate IMAP/POP3 passwords like Hushmail can be compromised through it. If your client also integrates with encryption or worse takes charge of it my encryption key is also now at risk. Lastly since email today is pure HTML you also inherit all the possible vulnerabilities that come with having a DOM parser and a layout engine and even modem browsers still get both wrong. And using something like Electron or even Chromium won’t implicitly save you because the way you implement them matters a lot and now you are tied with their update cycle which might break functionality forcing you to manually backport security fixes which is hard to accomplish. So unless you have the source or show an audit from a respected firm (c53, isec etc.) its going to be quite hard to recommend to anyone to take the dive and try this out.

jannes 8y ago
Unfortunately, I agree with you. I'm saying "unfortunately" because it's such a shame that this sector is so closed off to innovation from smaller players just because it has become too important in our lives. I might try this client with a throwaway email account, but never with something important.
progx 8y ago
Tust is everything. What does it change if you have an c53 audit of Version 1.0.0 and 1.0.1 has malicious code?
- dogma1138 8y ago
  That is correct but it's a slightly different threat model that I don't want to tackle here. I'm not going to make claims that a developer would maliciously embed code into their own product but I do care about the quality of their code and their security practices at large (specifically how secure is their code promotion and binary distribution supply chain).
going_to_800 8y ago
No offense, but if everyone thinks like this we better not use email at all.

vijaybritto 8y ago

This looks fantastic, I was just thinking about so many of these features being released in gmail. Like the chat bubble. Those things really speed up reading information. Kudos!! Btw where are the electron haters?!

muszc-master 8y ago
Thank you! Yes I was expecting some comments about Electron, however I don't think it is really deserved. It is possible to build Electron apps that doesn't use >1gb of RAM, and this is what I've also been trying to do, when I've tested it on my old Macbook Air, it consumes around 300mb of RAM
- vijaybritto 8y ago
  Yes exactly. Also, there are ways to offload some of the background tasks to Rust. If you can do that, your app is gonna be consuming way less memory even with new features. Please consider it!
  - muszc-master 8y ago
    Good idea, will look into it!
SyneRyder 8y ago
> Btw where are the electron haters?! Hi! I'm here! ;) I mentioned Electron in my comment, and Electron is a deal-breaker for me... but I would much rather encourage the work and effort that is going into this. If the product is successful and profitable, maybe it can be ported to native frameworks a few versions later. And considering the rumours about macOS, probably wise to avoid writing native Mac code just now.
- apta 8y ago
  > And considering the rumours about macOS, probably wise to avoid writing native Mac code just now. What rumors?

kimusan 8y ago

looks nice - too bad it is not available for Linux.

vijaybritto 8y ago
Its electron, so hold on. Its going to be a matter of time I think!
muszc-master 8y ago
I've been getting a few requests to release it for Linux, and as the other commenter here, since it is Electron, it will not be very long before it can be released on Linux (compared to if it were a 100% native app)

SyneRyder 8y ago

This looks pretty cool, I'm really pleased to see people writing new email clients, and you've clearly worked very hard on this! I have a bunch of questions that I couldn't find out from the website (but are obscure enough that I shouldn't expect to): * Is this a purely native app, or an Electron / Javascript app? Personally I'm only interested in native apps & Electron would be a deal breaker - but I'm weird, most people won't care. * What format are you using for email archives? Mbox, Maildir? Can I import my Thunderbird / Postbox Mbox archives of 21 years of email? * Can I turn off threaded & conversation views? * Do you support POP3? (You only mention IMAP... I'm sure that would be fine, but I still have accounts configured via POP3.) * Can I change priority of individual messages after they arrive? I sort my inbox by priority and then date-descending, not by date. I'm a hardcore Postbox user and email is critical infrastructure for me, so I probably won't try it or switch anytime soon... but I'm always keeping an eye on powerful desktop email clients, in case I ever need to switch, or find something dependable that really blows away Postbox. Well done! Looks very promising!

muszc-master 8y ago
1. It's an Electron app, but it is built to use as little RAM as possible, when I run it on my old Macbook Air, it consumes only around 300mb of RAM maximum, which is less than what Finder consumes, and I consider everything over this limit to be a bug. 2. Currently not supporting Mbox/Maildir but downloading emails directly from the server, however an import of this is on the todo list 3. Re: turn off conversation view: not at this time. Do you prefer not having it in a conversation view? 4. No POP3 yet 5. I think you can achieve this using folders/labels in Ivelope Thanks for the positive encouragement! Edit: formatting
- yani 8y ago
  300MB of ram sounds like a lot to me. What are you storing in memory that is that large? If I dont use the app for 1 hour will it stop using the memory?
  - muszc-master 8y ago

phnofive 8y ago

Looks very interesting. I personally would appreciate knowing I am entering my email into a waiting list rather than getting access. Also, why does there need to be a waiting list - to help stem the flow of analytics? Honestly curious. I really want a good, modern email client and I hope this can be it.

muszc-master 8y ago
The reason for having a waiting list is so that I can release it to a few people at a time. I don't want to release it to everyone at once, because if there is a large or annoying bug I haven't found. If I release it to a few people, let's say 50, only they will experience this possible bug and not everyone at once

dri_ft 8y ago

God bless you for working in a space—native email clients—which seems utterly neglected nowadays.

PrimeDirective 8y ago
It's not native, looks like an electron app
- dri_ft 8y ago
  Maybe 'native' is the wrong word, but I meant non-web-app.
  - stephenr 8y ago
    Electron apps are web apps though.
    - wsy 8y ago
      Not sure if there is a common agreement about terminology, but my distinction is - web app: loads from a server and connects to a backend to perform its activities. Business logic is on the server. If at all, very limited offline capabilities - desktop app: is installed on the local machine, doesn't need any connection to a backend to work, works offline. I don't mind at all which technology the dev used to implement. Even nerdy metrics like memory and CPU consumption cannot be predicted from the used technology. So why should I care?
      - stephenr 8y ago
        “Web app: renders the entire interface in a browser engine” is a pretty simple definition.
        themarkn 8y ago
        This is a simple definition but I think it lacks a couple important things: 1. It doesn't match the words. If that defines a "web app" then where does the web come in? I would think part of being a web app is that you can access it via the web and don't have to install it on your device. 2. Usefulness of the distinction to users. The specific nature of the bundled runtime for the code doesn't matter to anybody. It strikes me as pedantic to insist that because under the hood a thing is running in a browser we should call it a "web app". I think the most practical distinction is that web apps have a URL as the entrypoint. If you want to use it, you can visit the URL from any browser that supports the app. Web app requires a URL and a compatible browser. If instead you install the thing on your computer and run it from there, it's not a web app. It's a native app. No URL and it doesn't care what other browser you have installed because it comes with everything it needs. It's independent. How and why would users be expected to understand anything else?

dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago

It looks wonderful! Finally a good candidate for a successor of Thunderbird! I just hope you'll manage to finish your project. By the way, when do you plan to release the beta?

muszc-master 8y ago
Thank you! Version 0.9 is out right now, and I have released it to a few people in the waiting list, I'm fixing bugs and iterating, so expect to get a download link pretty soon

amelius 8y ago

> Show HN: I've spent the last 2 years building a new email client Where is the corresponding "Ask HN: What requirements should I consider before writing a new email client?"

jacquesm 8y ago
Is it mandatory to consult HN before starting on something new?
stevekemp 8y ago
> "Ask HN: What requirements should I consider before writing a new email client?" Oh boy. I've written a mail client [1] (two actually) and I've found that people have widely conflicting requirements. Me? I wanted to replace mutt with something that was similarly console-based, and would use the same Maildir hierarchies. Other people demand GUI access, sometimes with IMAP, sometimes with POP3, and sometimes (very rarely) with just local Maildirs. If I were to begin again I'd probably abandon Maildirs, and instead just work via notmuch, or some other indexed-store. That would allow "virtual folders", and other neat things. I don't think I've got the patience to start again though, as my current client is already the second version. 1 - https://lumail.org/ https://lumail.org/

yani 8y ago

You are not weird. More and more people think that Electron is bad

SquareWheel 8y ago
This is an "all my friends voted for..." argument. Electron applications such as Slack, Discord, and VS Code have ballooned in popularity over the last year or two. Hacker News comments are not representative of the whole.
- yani 8y ago
  It is not about popularity, it is about the resources Electron apps use vs native. The apps that you mentioned do not have good native alternatives. I cannot see anyone preferring a native app over Electron app if both offer the same features.
  - Insanity 8y ago
    Do you mean, you cannot see anyone preferring an Electron app over a native app?
    - oldcynic 8y ago
      That's almost never the choice though is it? Who offers an Electron app and a native app? So the choice becomes use an Electron app or something else entirely.
      - Insanity 8y ago
        Electron app versus using their website I guess. In which case I use their website. But I agree, it's almost never a choice, but it's a hypothetical
      - y_molodtsov 8y ago
        The choice is actually more interesting. Although big companies such as Slack potentially have resources to support development for multiple platforms, even they can implement new features faster due to Electron. Think about all those small teams that just wouldn’t be able to port their apps anywhere without it. So in some ways I’d probably prefer a good Electron app.

hestefisk 8y ago

Oh goodness, another electron app...

kowdermeister 8y ago
...another electron app that wouldn't exist if the UI has to be done with a GL based UI lib by a single person.
- hestefisk 8y ago
  Why so?

jk2323 8y ago

Well, I am curious. Seems so hard to get an email client right. I would not mind paying (GPG integration is a must). If you don't go the mutt/alpine route, there aren't much options. Basically Thunderbird and Evolution. Never really got Clawsemail and iscribe to work with my IMAP server settings. To make things worse, people do understand email less and less. Often, all ports except 80 and 443 are blocked and you can't even use IMAP/SMTP. And if you complain they tell you "What are you talking about? Gmail works...."

muszc-master 8y ago
During development of this client, I fully understand why there aren't more email clients out there. GPG is coming!
- jk2323 8y ago
  Also, Gmails search function is a blast. Much worse in Thunderbird, annoying in Evolution.
  - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
    I recently switched from Thunderbird to Evolution and I have to say the search in the latter is bordering on completely useless...
  - billfruit 8y ago
    Gmail searching isn't really that great, it doesn't do stemming while searching, offline clients should be able to do better than that.
- jk2323 8y ago
  Actually, there is another feature from Evolution you may want to offer for Gmail accounts. Evolution somehow stores a cookie or can log in via webbrowser or something like that. Evolution will never get you logged out of your Gmail account (yes, I have one that I use for some things). I travel a lot and Thunderbird will always get blocked by Gmail (Please log-in via Webbrowser to confirm your identity).

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

muvek 8y ago

This looks great. I have two questions: - Is this open-source? What is the license and where is the source-code? - When can we expect a linux version?

matt4077 8y ago

Not a fan of the logo in the top bar. It looks like one of those tacky “gaming” keyboards with a logo on the space bar.

raimue 8y ago

What would be the reason to limit access to the beta with a waiting queue? I can see reasons to use this approach for a web app, for which you have to ensure that it scales with the number of users. There is no such problem for a standalone desktop app, though.

muszc-master 8y ago
You are right in this respect, the reason for limiting access right now is that I don't want hundreds of people to experience and report the same bug, if I let a few users at a time try it, I can fix the bugs they report so the users in the next batch won't experience these bugs.

rqs 8y ago

Maybe sounds weird, but does it it support Usenet (NNTP) protocol? Or maybe make it support plugins so people can add features they want. Thank you!

brongondwana 8y ago

Of course I have to ask if you've looked at JMAP (http://jmap.io/spec.html http://jmap.io/spec.html). More because we're getting close to finishing the spec, and feedback from someone who's build a client recently about whether the spec suits their needs would be valuable!

muszc-master 8y ago
Hi! I really like the initiative of JMAP, however I haven't been able to look into it properly - I can give you a better answer once I've done that, my email is in my profile
- chrismorgan 8y ago
  One of the things we’re really hoping with JMAP is that, by drastically lowering the barrier of entry (because doing IMAP/POP3/SMTP well is hard), people will be able to experiment much more, making things like Ivelope, because they can start making UI almost immediately rather than shaving IMAP yaks first. I have a talk planned entitled “building a fair dinkum email client in half an hour with JMAP”—because you genuinely can make a basic but useful email client that quickly! (I’m planning to submit it for Strange Loop. Any know of other conferences that would like such content?) JMAP’s support for both labels and folders may be helpful for Ivelope too. I love seeing a new approach to an email UI, based on the same old email that still works. Thanks for making it!
  - mike-cardwell 8y ago
    I'm not convinced that JMAP existing will make it easier for people to develop things like Ivelope. I don't know in this particular case, but if I were writing Ivelope I wouldn't first write an IMAP library of my own. I'd use an existing one. And all commonly used languages have pre-existing IMAP libraries anyway. I doubt the ability to do "var client = new JMAP()" instead of "var client = new IMAP()" will lead to a flood of new clients.
    - chrismorgan 8y ago

therealidiot 8y ago

Does this do any kind of telemetry at all? Looks nice, would be interested to take a look if/when a Linux build was available

tobyhinloopen 8y ago

This is just advertising... showing a product on HN, but requiring you to "invite" others? Too bad, I was actually willing to try the software. I'm not going to invite others if others can't use the software, or without trying it for myself first...

muszc-master 8y ago
I'm sorry if it came across as advertising, let me clarify: you NEVER have to invite others to get access, however if you do, you have the chance to get access sooner - I think this is fair. I definitely understand your concern of not sharing it and you do not have to share it to get access.
- mcintyre1994 8y ago
  That sounds reasonable enough, but how fast is your queue moving? I'm 3,800 something - will I remember this show HN when I get access? :)

y_molodtsov 8y ago

Will definitely try it out, it’s really hard to find a perfect client. I wonder when will we be ready to finally drop copying the entire fricking thread with each email, since all email clients automatically build the thread. If you need to forward it to someone, it’d be easier to replicate that functionality on the client side.

muszc-master 8y ago
Thank you! This is one of the problems I'm trying to solve - although not fully implemented yet in the beta

yaantc 8y ago

Thanks for your interest in local email clients, more choice there is welcome! In the description it is said one can file email with a key, by associating folders to keys. Keyboard operation is very important to me. However direct key/folder association doesn't scale to a large number of folders. Have you considered a feature like the "Nostalgy" extension for Thunderbird? [1] With Nostalgy one type "s" to file/save an email, then a string which is matched to folder names. It's a bit like helm for emacs (except it's exact match, space is not interpreted as an "AND" like with helm). The commands are go/save/copy, and then string match. This scales very well. That could be an advanced feature, as for beginners the direct key/folder association is simpler. But I guess you will target advanced users too, and for them it may be an important feature. [1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/nostalgy/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/nostalgy/

muszc-master 8y ago
Sounds cool, will check it out!
vanous 8y ago
Claws mail had this by default. Thunderbird fortunately via the Nostalgy extension. It's been a lifesaver since claws mail never implemented HTML mail, forcing me to move to Thunderbird for 21st century text formatting ten years ago.

sbr464 8y ago

I have a side question for those who dislike electron apps (or prefer native): 1. Which OS do you use use? I'd love to know if it's skewed to a particular OS to know which platform to prioritize a native client.

samueldavid 8y ago

how did you sustain yourself working on this fulk time for free?

muszc-master 8y ago
Noodles and savings

christopheraue 8y ago

This looks interesting. One can see the two years of work that went into this. Is there a way to follow the development as a bystander? Something like a newsletter, blog, twitter or any other kind of feed?

muszc-master 8y ago
Thank you for your feedback! If you sign up for an invite, I'll let you know once something like this is up and running.

jakeogh 8y ago

It's not a client, when gmail changed it's TOS to use your messages, I wrote gpgmda. Found sup!? alot? notmuch. https://github.com/jakeogh/gpgmda https://github.com/jakeogh/gpgmda

toto007 8y ago

Why do you spent 2 year of your live to build a new email client? Aren't there quite software per this scope?

toto007 8y ago

Why do you spend 2 year of your live to build a new email client? Aren't there enought software for this scope?

sametmax 8y ago

The field really needs this so good luck. I'll test the first release that works on my os. I

mike-cardwell 8y ago

Has anyone tested this using https://www.emailprivacytester.com https://www.emailprivacytester.com yet? If not, please do so and report back here. I would test myself but I'm stuck in the queue for access.

mike-cardwell 8y ago

Does this have support for OpenPGP? If not, you might want to take a look at https://github.com/openpgpjs/openpgpjs https://github.com/openpgpjs/openpgpjs which does all the heavily lifting for you. Although it would also be useful if it could talk to a locally running gpg-agent so it would work with smartcards/yubikeys etc.

muszc-master 8y ago
Doesn't support it as of yet, however it has been requested by many and is on my todolist.
- Boulth 8y ago
  Is there a public tracker for these requests? I'd be happy to be informed when OpenPGP support is available. Enigmail started to behave really weird since version 2 and your client looks incredible!

ramijames 8y ago

Fuck man, just let me use it.

muszc-master 8y ago
What's the features you're mostly looking forward to? I'll see what I can do :P

quakenul 8y ago

Super cool! ctrl+f on "price" or "cost" turns up nothing. Well then, what is your business model going to be?

ynniv 8y ago

I don't think this puts enough emphasis on the fact that it is a local client and not a web service. I see some people here griping about Electron, but the privacy implications of being a local app are way more important than the performance of the framework used.

muszc-master 8y ago
I agree with you. The discussion has somewhat de-railed off-topic into a discussion about Electron. While that is an interesting discussion, it is pretty off-topic.
- Skunkleton 8y ago
  Is it off topic though? This is HN after all.
Qwertie 8y ago
Seems to be a proprietary application so app privacy went out the window already.
- ynniv 8y ago
  Privacy is a spectrum. You can choose to be at one end of it, but not everyone shares your opinion. As a local app your data has a different legal status, and you actually have a lot of control over the execution compared to a web service. For instance, with outgoing firewall rules you could ensure that this is only talking to your email server.
- Mononokay 8y ago
  You can audit the code of every Electron app, so why are you acting like it's full of spyware that you'll never be able to have privacy with?
  - hjek 8y ago
    Ever heard of minimized JavaScript[0]? [0]: https://github.com/google/closure-compiler https://github.com/google/closure-compiler

fourseventy 8y ago

+1 for the Office Space references

EdSeegar 8y ago

It's funny how everyone has a extremely specific set of requirements, most of time for technical reasons. Does say something about e-mail in 2018 I guess.

mmargerum 8y ago

I always thought it would be nice if the major os vendors provided some way of building these types of local run web app using a shared engine the os provided. Not just a web view, but a way to build the ui using web tech but also exposing the file system and other things. I guess it would be hard to secure but it’s not any worse than running unsigned eclectron apps.

brightball 8y ago

Nice! This has a ton of potential and I really like the way that you've approached things here. Does the calendar sync up to the various calendar providers (Google, Apple, etc) as well?

muszc-master 8y ago
It will very soon, that's one of the most requested features by my current beta users

speby 8y ago

This is awesome. And very well done. It is clear that a lot of effort and time went into building and polishing this, especially for a single person. Impressive! I signed up for the list too. Looking fwd to trying it out.

muszc-master 8y ago
Thank you!

cdnsteve 8y ago

Whats the business model around this or funding plans? Freemuim, paid software, ads, selling data? How sustainable is this project?

samstave 8y ago

I love it. The fwd with attachment should be no 1 to fix though

muszc-master 8y ago
Thanks for the feedback, fwd attachment priority noted

samstave 8y ago

Hope @pg will see this - as he called for better email years ago

davidcollantes 8y ago

I love the implementation, I can't wait to play with it, and even use it! A question, is it a pure email client, or an email client behind a value added service (it relies on a server you run somewhere)? Thanks!

muszc-master 8y ago
It's a pure email client! We do not have a third party server processing your emails, your data goes only directly between your computer and your email server.
- davidcollantes 8y ago
  Excellent, thank you much! In queue. :-)
davidcollantes 8y ago
Found it on your website: > Total privacy - we do not have access to your email account, Ivelope only sends your email data and password between your computer and your email server. Neat!

fouc 8y ago

The chat-like interface looks great! kudos!

muszc-master 8y ago
Thanks!
- flas9sd 8y ago
  having recently heard of autocrypt and delta.chat, I thought time is ripe for somebody to use this view in a regular email client. The demo video seemed to have exactly implemented this, I'm impressed.

shaaaaawn 8y ago

Love the work you put into this and the detail put into describing the features. One thing missing from the site. Why did you make it?

muszc-master 8y ago
I felt that email clients hasn't changed much in the last 20 years and that there is a lot of improvements that can be done in this space, please note, the features that exists now in Ivelope consists of just a small percentage of what will come...

Rjevski 8y ago

Electron = no thanks. I might as well use my provider’s web interface then.

marek995 8y ago

Can't wait to try out the Linux version!

purple-again 8y ago
Its made with Electron so my understanding is it should work on Windows/Linux/Mac out of the box!
- BuildTheRobots 8y ago
  Electron? The obvious snarky comment has to then be "oh and it should manage to be slower than Thunderbird out of the box, too!" I hope he's had better luck integrating spell check than the RamBox devs have ;) edit: yes, I would love to test it and provide numbers rather than just snark - I just have to wait for the ~5,000 people ahead of me in the queue to have their software pressed to disk and posted to them before it's my turn o.0
  - muszc-master 8y ago
    Haha "pressed to disk and posted" that was a fun remark :)
    - BuildTheRobots 8y ago
      I'm baffled as to why I have to queue for something that's neither a physical product nor a service platform. Doubly so when the link posted seems to just bump someone else up the queue. As a hacker news link it does strike me as a form of clickbait (and it honestly winds me up); "Hey HN! come look at this thing I've built that I'm not letting you look at!"
      - muszc-master 8y ago
        Since I am only one developer currently, and there will probably be bugs, I don't want thousands of people having the same bug, this is the reason I'm not releasing it right away.

salimmadjd 8y ago

I put my name on the waitlist, but instantly lost interest and confidence by: “Jump forward 5 steps in the line for every person you invite and get beta access sooner.” Why? If the product is that good I’ll evangelize it. This is a desktop application, so I don’t see a big boost from a network effect. All this does makes me wonder if the product is more about building hype than value

adamnemecek 8y ago
I think that that one email app that got acquired by dropbox before even launching did this and I think people are just copying it.
- brianjking 8y ago
  Yeah, Mailbox app used this prior to it's Dropbox acquisition. Mailbox is now a dead product. RIP.
  - pmarreck 8y ago
    Why would Dropbox (note: not remotely an email service) acquire Mailbox and then kill it?
    - lgregg 8y ago
      They probably saw something in their software to strip for Dropbox.
    - adamnemecek 8y ago
      Acquihire.
      - pmarreck 8y ago
        This answer makes the most sense, but is still sad
    - 8y ago

jscholes 8y ago

> Use Ivelope with your current email adresses. adresses -> addresses

muszc-master 8y ago
Oops, second typo found. (I'm not a native speaker if that's an excuse :P)

ComodoHacker 8y ago

I've searched the page for the word "offline", was disappointed. Searched this thread for the word "electron", was disappointed again. Then I've signed up nevertheless, because the need for a good modern email client is strong.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

zengid 8y ago

Speaking of desktop, has anyone else seen Proton Native? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16978901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16978901

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

danmg 8y ago

Would be nice to see a feature comparison with Thunderbird. What exactly can this do that Thunderbird can't?

muszc-master 8y ago
To give some examples: quick-move folders, conversation view, feed view, one click filter-creation and newsletter/promo filter
- danmg 8y ago
  Seems like a lot of these are covered by Thunderbird plug-ins with the added advantage of having a native application.

dhruvb14 8y ago

I find it crazy that everyone is harping on Electron instead of the cool features that this clearly has that most clients do not. Demo looked pretty polished dude. Don't let the typical HN crowd rain on your parade. The fact that you posted an actual product out to the public is more than most can say. Also: If you can't spare Max 300MB ram and you are complaining on HN wtf computer do you use?

Can_Not 8y ago
What kind of computer an I using? I'm using a work computer that needs RAM for the actual work I do. If one auxiliary program used 300MB that would not be a big deal. But we're talking about electron MVP after electron MVP after electron MVP endlessly. Memory hogging electron MVP's are being released at 100x the speed of my computer's RAM growth. I bought a high RAM computer because I already need it for work, not because I want to fill it with Electron MVPs.
CryoLogic 8y ago
Half of Hackernews is discussion about six figure tech salaries, the other half is complaints about 300mb (aka ~$2) ram being to expensive for an app. https://www.anandtech.com/show/9864/price-of-ddr4-memory-drops-nearly-40-in-six-months-and-will-keep-declining https://www.anandtech.com/show/9864/price-of-ddr4-memory-dro...
- gruez 8y ago
  and what about people who use electron apps that aren't silicon valley programmers?
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    They can't properly voice their complaints because they don't know why their software is terrible; just that it is terrible.
- Barraketh 8y ago
  Yup, but we're all running these apps on laptops, which have a fixed amount of RAM that is sometimes impossible to increase (looking at you, Apple)

epx 8y ago

Quite a challenge you chose for yourself, I respect that! There are very, very few passable email clients in this world: Thunderbird, Mail.app (macOS and iOS) and GMail Web client.

muszc-master 8y ago
Indeed it was and is. My goal is to put Ivelope on that list

sslalready 8y ago

Looks great. Would love to try it out when it goes out of beta. For testning the privacy when it comes to email rendering, have you tried this excellent service? https://www.emailprivacytester.com https://www.emailprivacytester.com

muszc-master 8y ago
Yes I have and in the latest release which I'm working on, I've included features trying with the goal of fully complying with this tool.

parliament32 8y ago

No Linux version (yet?), unfortunately. Looks nice though from the screenshots!

jrochkind1 8y ago

Wow, people really feel personally attacked by an app released using Electron. Weird.

analreceiver 8y ago

The demo looks great! Consider crowd-sourcing an american voice-over actor, it might add a lot of value for very little cost.

graeme 8y ago

Can the filters be exported for import into gmail, etc? I have a lot of gmail filters for auto archive or auto forwarding. I like to keep them at that level so that changing clients doesnlt mean I lose my filters. Does make it a pain to make new filters though if I’m in a 3rd party client.

znpy 8y ago

Another browser running on my computer ? Thanks but no. Also, what kind of software license does it use? Is it open source? is it free software? Is it proprietary? Once I sign up, how will my email address be used? Will it be abused? It did not ask for any permission nor I agreed to any terms. He seems to be from Sweden, doesn't he know about GDPR?

gwbennett 8y ago

Congrats on working hard and shipping an app!

wedgeantilles 8y ago

Why?

newsat13 8y ago

Is there any pricing information?

alexashka 8y ago

Forgive my ignorance - can someone do a very short explanation of the killer features here? I don't send or receive a lot of emails - none of the features jumped out at me as doing something gmail or the default mac mail app is missing and I wish it had.