20 ms·

As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

264 points by sethbannon 9y ago

junkscience2017 9y ago
Schools like Cal are still offering too many slots to foreign students despite being chartered to serve the families of taxpayers who provide their funding. The same issue will eventually plague Canadian schools...foreign students will simply pay more directly for tuition even though taxpayers are still the core source of funds. For private universities, no one should care..they should select students from wherever they like. But State schools should exist to serve their residents.
- sonabinu 9y ago
  In most cases if the student is a resident but still international (dependent) of a visa holder, the student still ends up paying international fees. Not fun for the parent/guardian
- jacobolus 9y ago
  Edit: the downvoters win. Consider my (neutral/non-normative, but apparently controversial) comment deleted/retracted. Edit #2: If you keep further downvoting a comment that already explicitly says to consider itself deleted, you are a jackass. Please flag it instead.
  - junkscience2017 9y ago
    No, foreign students are keeping UC corrupt. UC has been plagued by scandal after scandal, horrendous waste, graft, patronage...etc etc The UC system needs more oversight, not more funny money. Cal had enough money to build a gorgeous football stadium. They have enough money to fund the Chancellor's alleged slush fund. California residents have an extremely high tax burden. They are doing their part. UC needs to be cleaned up, starting with a renewed focus on their core mission. None of the necessary reforms will happen while California has one-party rule.
    - iainmerrick 9y ago
      You make it sound like foreign students are stealing resources from the US. To the contrary, they pay a lot for the privilege of studying, and they're likely to try to immigrate later -- and even if you're anti-immigration, it's madness to be against young, educated, skilled immigrants who've experienced your country at an impressionable age.
      - jacobolus 9y ago
        another neutral/non-normative comment retracted
        saboot 9y ago
        > The resentment comes because the UC system has a limited enrollment capacity with competitive admissions, and has a mission of educating residents. So when foreign students take some of those enrollment slots, local students who missed the cut feel cheated. It's competitive, however it is anything but impossible to get admission into a UC. I'd consider the paths to getting in straight forward. Either in highschool you are in the top 9% of students statewide, or top 9% in your local highschool if the school participates in the program. You are guaranteed an admission to at least one UC campus. Didn't make it? Most community colleges offer guaranteed transfer agreements where you complete a requirement of classes and GPA, giving you an automatic admission. And if this is still too much, there is the entire CSU system to consider.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        iainmerrick 9y ago
        I'd add that meeting and interacting with international students is one of the perks of going to a good university. It expands your worldview. This is true for business degrees especially -- it's all about making connections with people who can help you in your career for decades afterwards. I think it applies to science and arts degrees too. Certainly if you stay in academia, having international academic connections can be very useful.
  - inferiorhuman 9y ago
    Unfortunately both the UC and CSU systems are very top heavy. They've been nickle and diming the students and taxpayers to prop up some obscene salaries for regents and executives. Hell, UCSF outsourced a bunch of its IT staff to HCL (H1B), but hasn't even begun to trim the fat at the top. Of course another option would be to lean more heavily on private donors like Zuckerberg and Benioff.
- sbuccini 9y ago
  Like many things, it's not that quite simple. I would argue that in some ways the charter between the state and the university was broken when the state of California drastically cut funding during the Great Recession and didn't restore it once the budget stabilized. How can California residents consider it a state resource when its supported primarily by out-of-state/international students paying sticker price and international corporations?
  - junkscience2017 9y ago
    In 1977, education was 27% of the California State budget. In 2008, education was 37% of the California State budget, it is now 42%. And the absolute size of the budget itself is rising. So in fact funding is increasing as a percentage of the budget and in absolute scales. The only real recent drop was 2007-2008. There is plenty of money available to run UC prudently as a resource for residents...indeed, more than ever before. Downvote all you want, these are UCs own numbers so they are true regardless of your opinion or angst.
    - megaman22 9y ago
      California really needs to bail on Proposition 13...
      - bsder 9y ago
        At the very least, California needs to make business and investment real estate not subject to Proposition 13. However, you can count on the fact that the business lobbyists will be out EN MASSE to stop any attempt like that.
        vadym909 9y ago
        even if they just get rid of Prop 13 on rentals and passing the benefit to children- at least a future generation may have a chance to affordability in CA... "Thanks to a state proposition that took effect in 1986, known as the "parent-child reassessment exclusion," a child can inherit a parent's principal residence, whether modest or worth millions, without triggering a reassessment for property taxes."
- mc32 9y ago
  A question I would have, if I were an international student living in say, California, is why would I pay tuition as a legal immigrant on say a F-1 visa, but if I came in illegally, I would have a chance at getting a subsidy[1]? Could they just pretent to be illegal for the subsidy and then when done just go home on your F-1. It's not like the school would check or even less ask the feds about status. [1]https://students.ucsd.edu/finances/fees/residence/ab540.html https://students.ucsd.edu/finances/fees/residence/ab540.html
  - sjf 9y ago
    You can't get an F1 visa without the school knowing, they are sponsoring the visa.
    - mc32 9y ago
      Couldn't you go AWOL and then register as undocumented? Or why not be able to register for Non-Resident Tuition Exemption? Wouldn't that be discriminatory in some sense?
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Couldn't you go AWOL and then register as undocumented? . Well, you can't qualify for DACA without a time machine, so you'd need to estsblish eligibility under AB 540 by spending three years as a California resident attending a California high school to qualify. Having done this, you wouldn't have to pretend to be undocumented, since you'd pretty certainly lose your F-1 status. So, you'd potentially be eligible for in-state tuition—but also potentially eligible for deportation. Plus, unlike an actual good-standing F-1, you’ll have a lot harder time ever getting legal status in the US. > Wouldn't that be discriminatory in some sense? Of course it would; every status distinction made in law is “discriminatory in some sense.” The relevant issue is does it fail to meet the legal standard of legitimacy of purpose and adaptation to that purpose applicable to the basis and nature of discrimination.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > why would I pay tuition as a legal immigrant on say a F-1 visa No such thing as a “legal immigrant on an F-1 visa”, as an F-1 is a non-immigrant visa and F-1s are non-resident aliens legally prohibited from establishing a US domicile. > if I came in illegally, I would have a chance at getting a subsidy The only people who came in illegally who can be considered residents for UC tuition purposes—as stated on the page you link—are those who are qualified for and have been granted status under DACA (a policy established in 2012), which means you had to be brought over as a child under 16, and must have lived in the US since 2007, or those that have attended 3 years of California high school. > Could they just pretent to be illegal for the subsidy and then when done just go home on your F-1. It's not like the school would check or even less ask the feds about status Yes, if you claim to be in DACA status, the state will check your DACA status. If you claim to be an undocumented student that attended three years of California high school, they will check your high school records. If you are a foreign student on an F-1, neither one of those is going to work.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Schools like Cal are still offering too many slots to foreign students despite being chartered to serve the families of taxpayers who provide their funding. Taxpayers don't provide their funding, taxpayers provide a partial subsidy of the costs associated with in-state students; this is why their is reduced tuition for such students.
  - freeone3000 9y ago
    Okay, taxpayers provide part of their funding, the remainder of which is through donations and student fees.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > Okay, taxpayers provide part of their funding, the remainder of which is through donations and student fees. Taxpayers provide part (a declining share and declining real per-student amount) of the funding for in-state students. Why would this subsidy have any bearing on the number of out-of-state slots, which are fully (or more than) self-funded? If taxpayers want more in-state slots, then the taxpayers can fund more in-state slots. > the remainder of which is through donations and student fees And research contracts, IP and publishing revenue, etc.
  - refurb 9y ago
    I fail to see how the OP was incorrect at all. A subsidy is funding.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      Yes, but “their funding” is not the same as “a part—and a declining part at that—of their funding”.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- anon946 9y ago
  I can't say for California, but in NYS, out-of-state students are money-makers for the university. In other words, reducing out-of-state students would increase in-state tuition, or result in facilities/services being cut.
Overtonwindow 9y ago
George Mason University leans heavily on international graduate students. The school increased no-credit-but-required classes on undergrads to pay those same international students who wish to be GTA's. It's almost like a Ponzi scheme.
petilon 9y ago
This is bad news. People like Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google, Elon Musk, founder of Tesla and SpaceX, not to mention CEOs of Google, Microsoft and Adobe all came to the US as students. Without the immigration of the brightest on the planet, the US will, over time, lose its edge.
- maoistinquisitr 9y ago
  Probably the opposite. American students with options are deliberately avoiding the fields the foreign students crowd because of the wage and working conditions suppression the added competition produces. Deliberately discouraging the huge numbers of foreign students will help better cultivate greater American talent. A talent pool of 320 million people is plenty. We don't need to scour the globe.
  - curiousgal 9y ago
    I am yet to meet a single American who didn’t have access to college because of an international student. High tuition and fees are always the number one culprit.
    - ransom1538 9y ago
      "There are 3,003 international students enrolled in degree programs at MIT—430 undergraduates (10%) and 2,876 graduate students (43%)—for the current academic year." Really? First school I googled is 3k students. "High tuition and fees are always the number one culprit." No. US students attend IF they get in. This is why we are in a student loan crisis. There is no lack of money backed by US guaranteed college loans.
      - jdamon96 9y ago
        "No. US students attend IF they get in. This is why we are in a student loan crisis. There is no lack of money backed by USA guaranteed loans." Can you help me understand this logic? I don't understand the connection being made from admissions statistics to the student loans crisis.
brohoolio 9y ago
Trump is going to ruin the American economy. Attack universities by discouraging foreign students. Cut federal funding for research. Encourage political attacks on universities. The most damaging will be not forgiving student loans from people who went to scam universities, like Trump university. What Trump and others don’t recognize is that the American university system is a distributed system of factories that manufacture knowledge, innovation and the future. Just look at self driving cars. Much of the tech and the talent came from various universities.
- gervase 9y ago
  I absolutely believe that this is recognized, and is considered by some to be the precise point of this assault. A poorly-educated workforce drives down wages, speeds automation of low-skill jobs, decreases social mobility, and makes for a more predictable and easily-manipulated electorate. The few remaining high-skill, high-pay jobs can be filled by those who can afford to foot the entire bill for 12-18 years of private education. It is not seen as a "ruination" of the economy, merely a continuation of existing policies designed to "reshape" the economy into a less-equitable form. It only seems like ruin to the majority on the wrong side of those changes. I believe someone else on HN referred to these changes are "corporate feudalism", which I think is apt.
  - townesok 9y ago
    Yep. It seems obvious that one party is actively making education more difficult to obtain to increase a demographic[1] advantage. I'm not sure how to "prove" this. And anyway there's way too much plausible deniability to ever get anywhere. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016#Voter_demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_ele...
- whatever_dude 9y ago
  What the current White House administration is doing right now is akin to the short-term-gain-focused changes one would do in a company to please investors who want to short: * Remove or shrink employee (citizens) benefits * Stop investing on R&D (education), just ride on what you currently have * Alienate potential customer base and partners (other nations) * Drive away top performing employees (citizens, entrepreneurs) * Make sure your company is not attractive to new hires (alienate immigrants) * Increase long term debt by giving bonuses to already rich people (tax breaks to millionaires) This is going to come back to bite the country back in a decade or so, and it. Is. Not. Going. To. Be. Pretty.
foobarbazetc 9y ago
The only surprising thing about this article was how lowly paid a language professor is. $47,000? What?
- seibelj 9y ago
  Seems right to me, given the job prospects for someone whose talent is speaking two languages. Do you think the market for Italian / English specialists is super hot?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - fellellor 9y ago
    Leaving everything to be decided by market factors definitely has it's flaws. There should be room for authorities\patrons to intervene and prevent a certain skill set from being wiped out because it doesn't make business sense to preserve them.
    - kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
      Sure, not everything should be left to market forces, but there should usually be a reason to interfere with market forces—what reason do you propose for this case? Italian-English bilingualism is not in the least a rare skill that needs to be prevented from being wiped out.
    - hardwires 9y ago
      It's not being "wiped out", it's being scaled down to sustainable levels. If "the authorities" protect price levels for every job that is in a larger supply than demand, that money goes straight out of the pockets of the people who perform jobs that are in demand, i.e. the people performing the tasks that are needed the most by all the other people. You have a less efficient economy as a result, which makes people poorer on the average.
    - hyperbovine 9y ago
davidf18 9y ago
Thus is a good sign. These foreign students compete with Americans for jobs and depress wages by artificially increasing supply. The fewer foreign students, the more Americans will be employed and with higher pay especially true of young college grads. The only losers are American corporations that will have to pay higher salaries. The foreign students generally come from high income families able to afford out of state and private tuition while taking precious spots from Americans who dream of having a better life. Thus foreign students not only take spots at prestigious public and private schools they then compete with Americans in the job market.
tanilama 9y ago
Well, why come to a country that is openly hostile to you after all?
- anonymous5133 9y ago
  $$$ is why
  - tanilama 9y ago
    Unless u get a job. It is pretty hard by itself, even harder under Trump. As an investment, its return is diminishing.
    - mc32 9y ago
      I can see the difficulty of getting in to make a degree even more valuable in some countries.
      - tanilama 9y ago
        True for Good Schools. It is a great privilege to get into Ivys and top US institutions. Those Midwest public schools in the article don't really have a reputation for themselves.
    - closeparen 9y ago
      What? The returns to education are increasing. That’s why everyone’s going on about income inequality.
moduspol 9y ago
> International students pay double the [...] tuition of [in-state] residents > Nationwide, the number of new foreign students declined an average of 7 percent this past fall I mean, perhaps Trump can be blamed for some of it, but maybe these schools might consider lowering tuition a little to become more attractive to foreign students?
lewis500 9y ago
There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Research is a public good. We do not have a research system so that we can think of things for nerds to do; we have it to produce valuable knowledge. In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. That productivity led to discoveries that benefit everyone. Third, immigration: some of the foreign students would have wound up staying. We should want these people to stay here and have families. Educated people who work hard and are ambitious enough to go overseas and stay are good for the country.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  > In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. I think the bias has swung way too far the other way. Racism against Americans is still racism. Also, this applies mainly to undergrads (full paying students), not PhD students who are generally fully funded.
  - lewis500 9y ago
    Regarding PhDs, grad international enrollment is declining. Regarding the full-paying foreign undergrads, their tuition contributes towards the costs of the university that are shared. American students, especially at middle-ranking public schools, are hurt when schools lose their funding. Regarding the "racism against Americans," there is no such race, and if there were one it would not explain research productivity. What would is the self-selection of who will go across the world to study something technical, the much better high schools in other countries, and in the mere fact that the rest of the world is a larger talent pool than the US. It is easy to think of reasons.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      > Regarding PhDs, grad international enrollment is declining. Your source on that? All the schools I’m in contact with are still as international as ever in their CS PhD departments. I’m not sure what the trends are outside of CS, but I can’t imagine they would be very different. I think you are just pulling this number out of thin air. Research is funded quite differently from undergrad programs. Sure, fewer TAships are available, but your research funding is much more detached. DARPA and NSF aren’t going to become stingy all of a sudden. > Regarding the "racism against Americans," there is no such race, and if there were one it would not explain research productivity. If I claimed (without any evidence in fact) that “Indians or Chinese are less productive than Americans” I would totally be accused of racism even though both India and China are multi-ethnic. It is especially a stupid thing to say as foreign and domestic students are pretty diverse, with slackers (or dreamers) and very focused students on both sides.
dmode 9y ago
I would highly recommend to Indian students not to study in the US going forward. At least until the generally hostile attitude towards immigrants and meaningful reforms in GC attainment is done. If you plan to lay down your roots in America after school, it will simply not happen in the current climate. Go study in Canada, Australia, UK, and India and contribute to those societies
- sombremesa 9y ago
  All you have to do is get married to an American. You could be the best and brightest or the dumb and dullest, won't matter.
  - abusoufiyan 9y ago
    Not that easy. Most first-gen people I know are absolutely against marrying anyone who isn't a permanent resident, basically because of advice like yours.
  - zeusk 9y ago
    Apart from that being fraud (marriage for the sole purpose of citizenship), getting married is not the top priority for most at that age. Also, as part of the F-1 visa requirement they're required to demonstrate homeland ties that indicate there is a high chance they'll return after completing the course.
  - netheril96 9y ago
    Indian/Chinese men are much less desired than whites and sometimes blacks and latinos in the US dating market. Marrying an American is probably harder than alternative approaches, at least for males from these countries.
    - pentae 9y ago
      Or you know, put up an ad on craigslist.
    - 123ol12313 9y ago
conjecTech 9y ago
This can be largely explained by the drop in birth rates in China associated with the one child policy. The number of college-aged Chinese in 2020 will be roughly half what it was a decade before[1]. People have seen this coming for years. The administrators blaming this on politics are most likely scapegoating for their poor planning. [1] https://www.indexmundi.com/china/age_structure.html https://www.indexmundi.com/china/age_structure.html
- dmode 9y ago
  If this was the case, it would be a gradual decline, instead of a dramatic decrease in one year. Also, anecdotally, none of my family members want to study in the US anymore.
  - conjecTech 9y ago
    How gradual would it have to be for you to find this plausible? The prior NYT article referenced in this work mentions that first-time international student fell 3% from 2016. Those were numbers collected prior to the election, mind you. And a 50% change in the largest cohort of international students over only 10 years is going to make for a pretty big impact. Especially considering that these middling American schools are seen as alternatives to better domestic choices like Tsinghua. If the schools being discussed here were low on the priority list of potential students, the change would be even more exaggerated. Imagine the hypothetical where there were 2 schools, each of which could educate 50 students per year and where all students prefer school 1 to school 2. If the population drops from 100 to 80, school 2 would see a 40% decrease in enrollment, even though the general population only dropped 20%. Now if school 1 is in China and school 2 is in the US...
  - a-nikolaev 9y ago
    Yeah, isn't that the general attitude in China that a US degree is not as valuable as it used to be? That should be contributing to the observed decline as well.
- sumedh 9y ago
  > The administrators blaming this on politics are most likely scapegoating for their poor planning. Couple of people I know in India right now are looking at going to Canada, Aus or NZ because they are uncertain what is going on under Trump. 5 to 10 years back almost everyone in my friend circle in India wanted to go to the US.
Robotbeat 9y ago
...and rural college towns. That ought to be in the headline, too.
Decabytes 9y ago
It's really sad that research institutions are leveraging international student's high tuition to increase their revenues.
- Overtonwindow 9y ago
  Not just that but those same students want GTA positions. To fund those positions the universities are increasing fees and no-credit courses on students.
Simulacra 9y ago
Universities should not make up budget short falls and high administration salaries in the backs of students.
sitkack 9y ago
Even my old community college stuffed itself on mediocre kids from overseas paying 3x market rate, but god their parents were probably really stoked to see them be someone else's problem. Universities need to cull their bureaucracies and stop wasting their time, money and effort with their spin-out accelerator programs. Research, teach and keep the roof patched. Problem is, they will probably double down on out of state tuition and patent grabs.
- Simulacra 9y ago
  A lot of my professors in undergrad engineering hated teaching. They openly derided it as a chore. This was very disheartening as a student to hear.
  - nitwit005 9y ago
    More a consequence of the schools happily trading teaching quality for research prestige. And for sports prestige, of course.
sfbay 9y ago
Trump and his stupid policies are the reason for this. Although his wife is a immigrant, he publicly hates everyone other immigrant trying to survive here.
nn3 9y ago
So they're cutting the french tuba and Italian professors, but keeping all the far more expensive deans? Seems backwards.
- mac01021 9y ago
  Are you saying they don't need to have a dean in order for the school to function? That might be true but, assuming it's not true, the best they could do to reduce the cost of deans would be to reduce the dean's salary by half. And laying off 2 or 3 faculty from departments that are not in high demand will lead to a much higher cost savings than half of a dean's salary. Removing a whole out-of-demand department even moreso.
mathattack 9y ago
Losing international students is bad, but the cuts they claim are hardly draconian. Given the current environment (high change, bloated costs, online education) we should expect massive changes at non-flagship public schools. Should local students working full time pay to subsidize a money losing swim team? (Independent of internationals)
ataturk 9y ago
US colleges and universities should be held accountable for failing in their mission to effectively and economically educate US students first and foremost! The education establishment has been corrupted by big banks. That foreign students still want to study in the US is at least a hopeful sign that there is still value somewhere in the equation, although I am incredibly skeptical about that matter at this point in time.
sol_remmy 9y ago
This is good news. At the moment, universities are the primary gatekeepers to becoming a citizen in the U.S. Right now universities are capturing nearly 100% of the "citizenship cost" that immigrants pay start their path to becoming citizens. That is disgusting and greedy. With 100K in loans paid to the university, anyone can come to the U.S. on a student visa, make contacts with companies, and eventually become a U.S. citizen. A U.S. graduate degree serves as the primary "citizenship cost" for a lot of immigrants. Instead of New England universities shaking down immigrants, I would like to see midwestern small towns, red states, small business all get a piece of the small fortune that immigrants spend to come to the United States.
- tanilama 9y ago
  If u read the article, it says Midwest schools are getting hit hard. New England elite schools will have no trouble shaking immigrants any way.
- yedava 9y ago
  According to the article, it was Midwest (aka "red" state) universities which have mostly benefited the most from foreign students. Also what visa allows immigrants to skip university enrolment and be directly employed in a small town small business?
  - sol_remmy 9y ago
    > Also what visa allows immigrants to skip university enrolment and be directly employed in a small town small business? The student visa allows one to be in the country for an indetermine amount of time (until their degree is done) and that person is free to obtain employment while enrolled in university
bawana 9y ago
Finally. Time for the sword of Damocles to fall on those overpaid administrators.
newen 9y ago
This is also due to Obama era scholarships/money provided to refugee students aren't done by the Trump administration anymore. The universities were indirectly subsidized by the US government and aren't done so anymore.
glbrew 9y ago
Apparently I'm the only one who is happy about this. I went through undergrad/grad school just as the explosion of foreign students occurred. Don't get me wrong, I'm open minded and liberal but I saw class rooms go from a dozen English speaking students with close connections to the professor to rooms stuffed beyond the fire code specifications of 50+ students who I couldn't even communicate with, not to mention the precipitous fall in education quality associated with this transition. Foreign money and skill is nice but I saw top tier programs go to shit to cram in a bunch of high paying mediocre foreign students. Domestic students deserve access to high quality education, and I personally saw major US programs fail at that.

264 points by sethbannon 9y ago

junkscience2017 9y ago

Schools like Cal are still offering too many slots to foreign students despite being chartered to serve the families of taxpayers who provide their funding. The same issue will eventually plague Canadian schools...foreign students will simply pay more directly for tuition even though taxpayers are still the core source of funds. For private universities, no one should care..they should select students from wherever they like. But State schools should exist to serve their residents.

sonabinu 9y ago
In most cases if the student is a resident but still international (dependent) of a visa holder, the student still ends up paying international fees. Not fun for the parent/guardian
jacobolus 9y ago
Edit: the downvoters win. Consider my (neutral/non-normative, but apparently controversial) comment deleted/retracted. Edit #2: If you keep further downvoting a comment that already explicitly says to consider itself deleted, you are a jackass. Please flag it instead.
- junkscience2017 9y ago
  No, foreign students are keeping UC corrupt. UC has been plagued by scandal after scandal, horrendous waste, graft, patronage...etc etc The UC system needs more oversight, not more funny money. Cal had enough money to build a gorgeous football stadium. They have enough money to fund the Chancellor's alleged slush fund. California residents have an extremely high tax burden. They are doing their part. UC needs to be cleaned up, starting with a renewed focus on their core mission. None of the necessary reforms will happen while California has one-party rule.
  - iainmerrick 9y ago
    You make it sound like foreign students are stealing resources from the US. To the contrary, they pay a lot for the privilege of studying, and they're likely to try to immigrate later -- and even if you're anti-immigration, it's madness to be against young, educated, skilled immigrants who've experienced your country at an impressionable age.
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      another neutral/non-normative comment retracted
      - saboot 9y ago
        > The resentment comes because the UC system has a limited enrollment capacity with competitive admissions, and has a mission of educating residents. So when foreign students take some of those enrollment slots, local students who missed the cut feel cheated. It's competitive, however it is anything but impossible to get admission into a UC. I'd consider the paths to getting in straight forward. Either in highschool you are in the top 9% of students statewide, or top 9% in your local highschool if the school participates in the program. You are guaranteed an admission to at least one UC campus. Didn't make it? Most community colleges offer guaranteed transfer agreements where you complete a requirement of classes and GPA, giving you an automatic admission. And if this is still too much, there is the entire CSU system to consider.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        iainmerrick 9y ago
        I'd add that meeting and interacting with international students is one of the perks of going to a good university. It expands your worldview. This is true for business degrees especially -- it's all about making connections with people who can help you in your career for decades afterwards. I think it applies to science and arts degrees too. Certainly if you stay in academia, having international academic connections can be very useful.
- inferiorhuman 9y ago
  Unfortunately both the UC and CSU systems are very top heavy. They've been nickle and diming the students and taxpayers to prop up some obscene salaries for regents and executives. Hell, UCSF outsourced a bunch of its IT staff to HCL (H1B), but hasn't even begun to trim the fat at the top. Of course another option would be to lean more heavily on private donors like Zuckerberg and Benioff.
sbuccini 9y ago
Like many things, it's not that quite simple. I would argue that in some ways the charter between the state and the university was broken when the state of California drastically cut funding during the Great Recession and didn't restore it once the budget stabilized. How can California residents consider it a state resource when its supported primarily by out-of-state/international students paying sticker price and international corporations?
- junkscience2017 9y ago
  In 1977, education was 27% of the California State budget. In 2008, education was 37% of the California State budget, it is now 42%. And the absolute size of the budget itself is rising. So in fact funding is increasing as a percentage of the budget and in absolute scales. The only real recent drop was 2007-2008. There is plenty of money available to run UC prudently as a resource for residents...indeed, more than ever before. Downvote all you want, these are UCs own numbers so they are true regardless of your opinion or angst.
  - megaman22 9y ago
    California really needs to bail on Proposition 13...
    - bsder 9y ago
      At the very least, California needs to make business and investment real estate not subject to Proposition 13. However, you can count on the fact that the business lobbyists will be out EN MASSE to stop any attempt like that.
      - vadym909 9y ago
        even if they just get rid of Prop 13 on rentals and passing the benefit to children- at least a future generation may have a chance to affordability in CA... "Thanks to a state proposition that took effect in 1986, known as the "parent-child reassessment exclusion," a child can inherit a parent's principal residence, whether modest or worth millions, without triggering a reassessment for property taxes."
mc32 9y ago
A question I would have, if I were an international student living in say, California, is why would I pay tuition as a legal immigrant on say a F-1 visa, but if I came in illegally, I would have a chance at getting a subsidy[1]? Could they just pretent to be illegal for the subsidy and then when done just go home on your F-1. It's not like the school would check or even less ask the feds about status. [1]https://students.ucsd.edu/finances/fees/residence/ab540.html https://students.ucsd.edu/finances/fees/residence/ab540.html
- sjf 9y ago
  You can't get an F1 visa without the school knowing, they are sponsoring the visa.
  - mc32 9y ago
    Couldn't you go AWOL and then register as undocumented? Or why not be able to register for Non-Resident Tuition Exemption? Wouldn't that be discriminatory in some sense?
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > Couldn't you go AWOL and then register as undocumented? . Well, you can't qualify for DACA without a time machine, so you'd need to estsblish eligibility under AB 540 by spending three years as a California resident attending a California high school to qualify. Having done this, you wouldn't have to pretend to be undocumented, since you'd pretty certainly lose your F-1 status. So, you'd potentially be eligible for in-state tuition—but also potentially eligible for deportation. Plus, unlike an actual good-standing F-1, you’ll have a lot harder time ever getting legal status in the US. > Wouldn't that be discriminatory in some sense? Of course it would; every status distinction made in law is “discriminatory in some sense.” The relevant issue is does it fail to meet the legal standard of legitimacy of purpose and adaptation to that purpose applicable to the basis and nature of discrimination.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > why would I pay tuition as a legal immigrant on say a F-1 visa No such thing as a “legal immigrant on an F-1 visa”, as an F-1 is a non-immigrant visa and F-1s are non-resident aliens legally prohibited from establishing a US domicile. > if I came in illegally, I would have a chance at getting a subsidy The only people who came in illegally who can be considered residents for UC tuition purposes—as stated on the page you link—are those who are qualified for and have been granted status under DACA (a policy established in 2012), which means you had to be brought over as a child under 16, and must have lived in the US since 2007, or those that have attended 3 years of California high school. > Could they just pretent to be illegal for the subsidy and then when done just go home on your F-1. It's not like the school would check or even less ask the feds about status Yes, if you claim to be in DACA status, the state will check your DACA status. If you claim to be an undocumented student that attended three years of California high school, they will check your high school records. If you are a foreign student on an F-1, neither one of those is going to work.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Schools like Cal are still offering too many slots to foreign students despite being chartered to serve the families of taxpayers who provide their funding. Taxpayers don't provide their funding, taxpayers provide a partial subsidy of the costs associated with in-state students; this is why their is reduced tuition for such students.
- freeone3000 9y ago
  Okay, taxpayers provide part of their funding, the remainder of which is through donations and student fees.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Okay, taxpayers provide part of their funding, the remainder of which is through donations and student fees. Taxpayers provide part (a declining share and declining real per-student amount) of the funding for in-state students. Why would this subsidy have any bearing on the number of out-of-state slots, which are fully (or more than) self-funded? If taxpayers want more in-state slots, then the taxpayers can fund more in-state slots. > the remainder of which is through donations and student fees And research contracts, IP and publishing revenue, etc.
- refurb 9y ago
  I fail to see how the OP was incorrect at all. A subsidy is funding.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    Yes, but “their funding” is not the same as “a part—and a declining part at that—of their funding”.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
anon946 9y ago
I can't say for California, but in NYS, out-of-state students are money-makers for the university. In other words, reducing out-of-state students would increase in-state tuition, or result in facilities/services being cut.

Overtonwindow 9y ago

George Mason University leans heavily on international graduate students. The school increased no-credit-but-required classes on undergrads to pay those same international students who wish to be GTA's. It's almost like a Ponzi scheme.

petilon 9y ago

This is bad news. People like Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google, Elon Musk, founder of Tesla and SpaceX, not to mention CEOs of Google, Microsoft and Adobe all came to the US as students. Without the immigration of the brightest on the planet, the US will, over time, lose its edge.

maoistinquisitr 9y ago
Probably the opposite. American students with options are deliberately avoiding the fields the foreign students crowd because of the wage and working conditions suppression the added competition produces. Deliberately discouraging the huge numbers of foreign students will help better cultivate greater American talent. A talent pool of 320 million people is plenty. We don't need to scour the globe.
- curiousgal 9y ago
  I am yet to meet a single American who didn’t have access to college because of an international student. High tuition and fees are always the number one culprit.
  - ransom1538 9y ago
    "There are 3,003 international students enrolled in degree programs at MIT—430 undergraduates (10%) and 2,876 graduate students (43%)—for the current academic year." Really? First school I googled is 3k students. "High tuition and fees are always the number one culprit." No. US students attend IF they get in. This is why we are in a student loan crisis. There is no lack of money backed by US guaranteed college loans.
    - jdamon96 9y ago
      "No. US students attend IF they get in. This is why we are in a student loan crisis. There is no lack of money backed by USA guaranteed loans." Can you help me understand this logic? I don't understand the connection being made from admissions statistics to the student loans crisis.

brohoolio 9y ago

Trump is going to ruin the American economy. Attack universities by discouraging foreign students. Cut federal funding for research. Encourage political attacks on universities. The most damaging will be not forgiving student loans from people who went to scam universities, like Trump university. What Trump and others don’t recognize is that the American university system is a distributed system of factories that manufacture knowledge, innovation and the future. Just look at self driving cars. Much of the tech and the talent came from various universities.

gervase 9y ago
I absolutely believe that this is recognized, and is considered by some to be the precise point of this assault. A poorly-educated workforce drives down wages, speeds automation of low-skill jobs, decreases social mobility, and makes for a more predictable and easily-manipulated electorate. The few remaining high-skill, high-pay jobs can be filled by those who can afford to foot the entire bill for 12-18 years of private education. It is not seen as a "ruination" of the economy, merely a continuation of existing policies designed to "reshape" the economy into a less-equitable form. It only seems like ruin to the majority on the wrong side of those changes. I believe someone else on HN referred to these changes are "corporate feudalism", which I think is apt.
- townesok 9y ago
  Yep. It seems obvious that one party is actively making education more difficult to obtain to increase a demographic[1] advantage. I'm not sure how to "prove" this. And anyway there's way too much plausible deniability to ever get anywhere. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016#Voter_demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_ele...
whatever_dude 9y ago
What the current White House administration is doing right now is akin to the short-term-gain-focused changes one would do in a company to please investors who want to short: * Remove or shrink employee (citizens) benefits * Stop investing on R&D (education), just ride on what you currently have * Alienate potential customer base and partners (other nations) * Drive away top performing employees (citizens, entrepreneurs) * Make sure your company is not attractive to new hires (alienate immigrants) * Increase long term debt by giving bonuses to already rich people (tax breaks to millionaires) This is going to come back to bite the country back in a decade or so, and it. Is. Not. Going. To. Be. Pretty.

foobarbazetc 9y ago

The only surprising thing about this article was how lowly paid a language professor is. $47,000? What?

seibelj 9y ago
Seems right to me, given the job prospects for someone whose talent is speaking two languages. Do you think the market for Italian / English specialists is super hot?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- fellellor 9y ago
  Leaving everything to be decided by market factors definitely has it's flaws. There should be room for authorities\patrons to intervene and prevent a certain skill set from being wiped out because it doesn't make business sense to preserve them.
  - kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
    Sure, not everything should be left to market forces, but there should usually be a reason to interfere with market forces—what reason do you propose for this case? Italian-English bilingualism is not in the least a rare skill that needs to be prevented from being wiped out.
  - hardwires 9y ago
    It's not being "wiped out", it's being scaled down to sustainable levels. If "the authorities" protect price levels for every job that is in a larger supply than demand, that money goes straight out of the pockets of the people who perform jobs that are in demand, i.e. the people performing the tasks that are needed the most by all the other people. You have a less efficient economy as a result, which makes people poorer on the average.
  - hyperbovine 9y ago

davidf18 9y ago

Thus is a good sign. These foreign students compete with Americans for jobs and depress wages by artificially increasing supply. The fewer foreign students, the more Americans will be employed and with higher pay especially true of young college grads. The only losers are American corporations that will have to pay higher salaries. The foreign students generally come from high income families able to afford out of state and private tuition while taking precious spots from Americans who dream of having a better life. Thus foreign students not only take spots at prestigious public and private schools they then compete with Americans in the job market.

tanilama 9y ago

Well, why come to a country that is openly hostile to you after all?

anonymous5133 9y ago
$$$ is why
- tanilama 9y ago
  Unless u get a job. It is pretty hard by itself, even harder under Trump. As an investment, its return is diminishing.
  - mc32 9y ago
    I can see the difficulty of getting in to make a degree even more valuable in some countries.
    - tanilama 9y ago
      True for Good Schools. It is a great privilege to get into Ivys and top US institutions. Those Midwest public schools in the article don't really have a reputation for themselves.
  - closeparen 9y ago
    What? The returns to education are increasing. That’s why everyone’s going on about income inequality.

moduspol 9y ago

> International students pay double the [...] tuition of [in-state] residents > Nationwide, the number of new foreign students declined an average of 7 percent this past fall I mean, perhaps Trump can be blamed for some of it, but maybe these schools might consider lowering tuition a little to become more attractive to foreign students?

lewis500 9y ago

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Research is a public good. We do not have a research system so that we can think of things for nerds to do; we have it to produce valuable knowledge. In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. That productivity led to discoveries that benefit everyone. Third, immigration: some of the foreign students would have wound up staying. We should want these people to stay here and have families. Educated people who work hard and are ambitious enough to go overseas and stay are good for the country.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
> In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. I think the bias has swung way too far the other way. Racism against Americans is still racism. Also, this applies mainly to undergrads (full paying students), not PhD students who are generally fully funded.
- lewis500 9y ago
  Regarding PhDs, grad international enrollment is declining. Regarding the full-paying foreign undergrads, their tuition contributes towards the costs of the university that are shared. American students, especially at middle-ranking public schools, are hurt when schools lose their funding. Regarding the "racism against Americans," there is no such race, and if there were one it would not explain research productivity. What would is the self-selection of who will go across the world to study something technical, the much better high schools in other countries, and in the mere fact that the rest of the world is a larger talent pool than the US. It is easy to think of reasons.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    > Regarding PhDs, grad international enrollment is declining. Your source on that? All the schools I’m in contact with are still as international as ever in their CS PhD departments. I’m not sure what the trends are outside of CS, but I can’t imagine they would be very different. I think you are just pulling this number out of thin air. Research is funded quite differently from undergrad programs. Sure, fewer TAships are available, but your research funding is much more detached. DARPA and NSF aren’t going to become stingy all of a sudden. > Regarding the "racism against Americans," there is no such race, and if there were one it would not explain research productivity. If I claimed (without any evidence in fact) that “Indians or Chinese are less productive than Americans” I would totally be accused of racism even though both India and China are multi-ethnic. It is especially a stupid thing to say as foreign and domestic students are pretty diverse, with slackers (or dreamers) and very focused students on both sides.

dmode 9y ago

I would highly recommend to Indian students not to study in the US going forward. At least until the generally hostile attitude towards immigrants and meaningful reforms in GC attainment is done. If you plan to lay down your roots in America after school, it will simply not happen in the current climate. Go study in Canada, Australia, UK, and India and contribute to those societies

sombremesa 9y ago
All you have to do is get married to an American. You could be the best and brightest or the dumb and dullest, won't matter.
- abusoufiyan 9y ago
  Not that easy. Most first-gen people I know are absolutely against marrying anyone who isn't a permanent resident, basically because of advice like yours.
- zeusk 9y ago
  Apart from that being fraud (marriage for the sole purpose of citizenship), getting married is not the top priority for most at that age. Also, as part of the F-1 visa requirement they're required to demonstrate homeland ties that indicate there is a high chance they'll return after completing the course.
- netheril96 9y ago
  Indian/Chinese men are much less desired than whites and sometimes blacks and latinos in the US dating market. Marrying an American is probably harder than alternative approaches, at least for males from these countries.
  - pentae 9y ago
    Or you know, put up an ad on craigslist.
  - 123ol12313 9y ago

conjecTech 9y ago

This can be largely explained by the drop in birth rates in China associated with the one child policy. The number of college-aged Chinese in 2020 will be roughly half what it was a decade before[1]. People have seen this coming for years. The administrators blaming this on politics are most likely scapegoating for their poor planning. [1] https://www.indexmundi.com/china/age_structure.html https://www.indexmundi.com/china/age_structure.html

dmode 9y ago
If this was the case, it would be a gradual decline, instead of a dramatic decrease in one year. Also, anecdotally, none of my family members want to study in the US anymore.
- conjecTech 9y ago
  How gradual would it have to be for you to find this plausible? The prior NYT article referenced in this work mentions that first-time international student fell 3% from 2016. Those were numbers collected prior to the election, mind you. And a 50% change in the largest cohort of international students over only 10 years is going to make for a pretty big impact. Especially considering that these middling American schools are seen as alternatives to better domestic choices like Tsinghua. If the schools being discussed here were low on the priority list of potential students, the change would be even more exaggerated. Imagine the hypothetical where there were 2 schools, each of which could educate 50 students per year and where all students prefer school 1 to school 2. If the population drops from 100 to 80, school 2 would see a 40% decrease in enrollment, even though the general population only dropped 20%. Now if school 1 is in China and school 2 is in the US...
- a-nikolaev 9y ago
  Yeah, isn't that the general attitude in China that a US degree is not as valuable as it used to be? That should be contributing to the observed decline as well.
sumedh 9y ago
> The administrators blaming this on politics are most likely scapegoating for their poor planning. Couple of people I know in India right now are looking at going to Canada, Aus or NZ because they are uncertain what is going on under Trump. 5 to 10 years back almost everyone in my friend circle in India wanted to go to the US.

Robotbeat 9y ago

...and rural college towns. That ought to be in the headline, too.

Decabytes 9y ago

It's really sad that research institutions are leveraging international student's high tuition to increase their revenues.

Overtonwindow 9y ago
Not just that but those same students want GTA positions. To fund those positions the universities are increasing fees and no-credit courses on students.

Simulacra 9y ago

Universities should not make up budget short falls and high administration salaries in the backs of students.

sitkack 9y ago

Even my old community college stuffed itself on mediocre kids from overseas paying 3x market rate, but god their parents were probably really stoked to see them be someone else's problem. Universities need to cull their bureaucracies and stop wasting their time, money and effort with their spin-out accelerator programs. Research, teach and keep the roof patched. Problem is, they will probably double down on out of state tuition and patent grabs.

Simulacra 9y ago
A lot of my professors in undergrad engineering hated teaching. They openly derided it as a chore. This was very disheartening as a student to hear.
- nitwit005 9y ago
  More a consequence of the schools happily trading teaching quality for research prestige. And for sports prestige, of course.

sfbay 9y ago

Trump and his stupid policies are the reason for this. Although his wife is a immigrant, he publicly hates everyone other immigrant trying to survive here.

nn3 9y ago

So they're cutting the french tuba and Italian professors, but keeping all the far more expensive deans? Seems backwards.

mac01021 9y ago
Are you saying they don't need to have a dean in order for the school to function? That might be true but, assuming it's not true, the best they could do to reduce the cost of deans would be to reduce the dean's salary by half. And laying off 2 or 3 faculty from departments that are not in high demand will lead to a much higher cost savings than half of a dean's salary. Removing a whole out-of-demand department even moreso.

mathattack 9y ago

Losing international students is bad, but the cuts they claim are hardly draconian. Given the current environment (high change, bloated costs, online education) we should expect massive changes at non-flagship public schools. Should local students working full time pay to subsidize a money losing swim team? (Independent of internationals)

ataturk 9y ago

US colleges and universities should be held accountable for failing in their mission to effectively and economically educate US students first and foremost! The education establishment has been corrupted by big banks. That foreign students still want to study in the US is at least a hopeful sign that there is still value somewhere in the equation, although I am incredibly skeptical about that matter at this point in time.

sol_remmy 9y ago

This is good news. At the moment, universities are the primary gatekeepers to becoming a citizen in the U.S. Right now universities are capturing nearly 100% of the "citizenship cost" that immigrants pay start their path to becoming citizens. That is disgusting and greedy. With 100K in loans paid to the university, anyone can come to the U.S. on a student visa, make contacts with companies, and eventually become a U.S. citizen. A U.S. graduate degree serves as the primary "citizenship cost" for a lot of immigrants. Instead of New England universities shaking down immigrants, I would like to see midwestern small towns, red states, small business all get a piece of the small fortune that immigrants spend to come to the United States.

tanilama 9y ago
If u read the article, it says Midwest schools are getting hit hard. New England elite schools will have no trouble shaking immigrants any way.
yedava 9y ago
According to the article, it was Midwest (aka "red" state) universities which have mostly benefited the most from foreign students. Also what visa allows immigrants to skip university enrolment and be directly employed in a small town small business?
- sol_remmy 9y ago
  > Also what visa allows immigrants to skip university enrolment and be directly employed in a small town small business? The student visa allows one to be in the country for an indetermine amount of time (until their degree is done) and that person is free to obtain employment while enrolled in university

bawana 9y ago

Finally. Time for the sword of Damocles to fall on those overpaid administrators.

newen 9y ago

This is also due to Obama era scholarships/money provided to refugee students aren't done by the Trump administration anymore. The universities were indirectly subsidized by the US government and aren't done so anymore.

glbrew 9y ago

Apparently I'm the only one who is happy about this. I went through undergrad/grad school just as the explosion of foreign students occurred. Don't get me wrong, I'm open minded and liberal but I saw class rooms go from a dozen English speaking students with close connections to the professor to rooms stuffed beyond the fire code specifications of 50+ students who I couldn't even communicate with, not to mention the precipitous fall in education quality associated with this transition. Foreign money and skill is nice but I saw top tier programs go to shit to cram in a bunch of high paying mediocre foreign students. Domestic students deserve access to high quality education, and I personally saw major US programs fail at that.