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Vietnam Deploys Cyber Warriors to Fight ‘Wrongful Views'
- malloryerik 9y agoActually, a better article is here: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vietnam-security-cyber/vietnam-unveils-10000-strong-cyber-unit-to-combat-wrong-views-idUSKBN1EK0XN https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vietnam-security-cyber/vi...
- secret_island 9y agoI'm sure they are getting their playbook from their Chinese friends. Even Japan is getting more heavy handed than they were, and in Asia, they are the most liberal of all governments in comparison. Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, all heavy handed as regards the Internet. Russia, China, most of the former Balkan states, Turkey... Brazil, even.
- tehlike 9y agoInternet is just one channel where you can express opinions. Many journalists are jailed even today based on their opinions, and I feel it's on us tech people to enable them the free speech they deserve.
- cooper12 9y ago"Us tech people" are the ones enabling them to censor though. From the article: "Facebook this year removed 159 accounts at Vietnam’s behest, while YouTube took down 4,500 videos, or 90 percent of what the government requested".
- olalonde 9y agoThat's nonsense. Countries are responsible for making up their own laws, not foreign techies.
- geofft 9y agoI think it behooves all techies to reread and really think about the Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace every now and then: https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence
- olalonde 9y agoI am deeply against censorship, consider myself a libertarian and wouldn't personally work for Facebook. I deeply sympathise with this manifesto. But I'm also a consequentialist and I believe the Vietnamese are overall better served with a censored Facebook/Youtube than no Facebook/Youtube at all. I also don't believe that getting 100% of techies on our side is a realistic strategy.
- tehlike 9y agoIt definitely isn't. There's also the "something you build can be used for evil or for good" aspect, too. When I say enable, I am talking about stateless nonprofits creating platforms where people can communicate freely, express themselves freely, and if they need to - organize protests to protect their freedoms. Things like Signal are great steps toward it, but we need more.
- lostlogin 9y agoJust following orders huh?
- tehlike 9y agoMost of the time, these companies are actually stronger than the government, even if they are not, there are a lot of ways they can choose to resist the orders.
- tehlike 9y agoIf you are from the US, be aware that even United States spies on its citizens, and recently-activated social media screening is just another step towards it.
- digitalzombie 9y agoOn that same thread, Cisco built the Chinese Golden Shield which is what now is refer to the great chinese firewall iirc.
- yipopov 9y ago>I feel it's on us tech people to enable them the free speech they deserve. It's clearly not a technical problem, so it's foolish to try to find a technical solution. This kind of silicon valley elitist Tellerism is doing more harm than good in cases like these.
- tehlike 9y agoGiving them a platform to freely communicate is not nothing. I think you were looking for an excuse to blame sv people.
- shiven 9y agoActually, it is. It is very much a technical problem. Technology has not yet provided a super-fast, truly decentralized, perfectly uncensorable “Internet for All” solution. If we had that, a lot of this discussion would be moot. Someone in Dalat could teach Vietnamese to any number of foreigners, without any adversary being the wiser. Anyone in China could read up on Tiannenmen Square or the “Free Tibet” movement without fear of arrest. People in Indonesia could watch any film they wish. “Laws” in any country on this planet are not immutable, immaculate/divine, absolute, or axiomatic. They can and should be changed — regardless of the concerns of those in power. And the only reliable way to ensure change is education, information and discussion — all unfettered, uncensored and unbridled. Until technology guarantees that, we as ‘techies’ have not delivered. And please, don’t tell me about Tor and “teh darkwubs” — that is not a realistic solution for 99% of the online population — too slow and still not bulletproof. Technology needs to do better.
- tehlike 9y agoVery well said, thank you. As for tor and the dark web, more important than being fast & solid is ease of use. If we design platforms, protocols, etc by default to be censorship free, then many projects to fill gaps will follow. Tor was an attempt, but failed at widespread adoption, maybe we need something smaller to begin with. E2E encrypted chat apps was a good first step, we need more. We take many things here in the US for granted. When I go back to my home country, I feel odd sense of insecurity, now imagine people living there for their whole lives - they take censorship as normal and go with it. With censorship comes with censored imaginations, research and so on.
- nradov 9y agoVietnam and China aren't exactly friends. They fought a war in 1979 and have ongoing territorial disputes.
- tuananh 9y agomore like "special administrative region" of china. thought not many people want to believe that, China has very strong political influence in Vietnam
- abritinthebay 9y agoThat’s a breathtaking over simplification of their relationship. It’s a very complex and mildly antagonistic relationship while, yes, also having strong cultural and political influence. Your characterization is incredibly broad however and - taken as written - quite inaccurate
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- cageface 9y agoI've been living in Vietnam for over seven years now and spoken to countless locals about this and it's way more than mildly antagonistic.
- santoriv 9y agoAgreed. The general sentiment that I've gotten from talking to people is that they are worried that either China will invade Vietnam (and hope that the US will protect them) or that the Vietnamese government has already "sold out" their country to China.
- tuananh 9y ago> or that the Vietnamese government has already "sold out" their country to China. That's what im' trying to say as well
- oh-kumudo 9y agoDemocracy is an import to (East) Asian society. The Confucian authoritarian philosophy had been the norm for almost 2000 years. By default, more power are delegated to the government, and people are oblivious or reluctant to question it.
- hktrl 9y agoInternet has to been regulated there is no doubt. If not we might have a Trump copy in any country. What a nightmare
- tzahola 9y agoCareful with that high horse buddy! Progressive western countries aren’t exactly new to internet censorship either: https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/21/15847262/german-facebook-raid-hate-incitement https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/21/15847262/german-facebook-...
- fixermark 9y agoTo view the issue through the lens of extremes: blocking easy search-engine access to child pornography is a form of censorship, and nearly nobody thinks it's a bad idea. All large companies execute some level of censorship and all countries have standards of decorum. The question is really how much censorship one tolerates, not whether any at all is tolerable.
- coldtea 9y agoWith the pervasive surveillance, paid troll campaigns from all parties, operations to influence media from agencies, millions of fake anti-net-neutrality messages, etc, the US is not some paragon of internet freedom either...
- jryle70 9y agoWhat you said is exactly the signs of internet freedom. If the government had the monopoly of the media they wouldn't have to have "operations to influence media from agencies". If anti-net-neutrality of the media there wouldn't be "millions of fake anti-net-neutrality messages". Do you want to try to set up an anti-corruption FB account in Vietnam and see what happen?
- taoistextremist 9y ago>Even Japan is getting more heavy handed than they were, and in Asia, they are the most liberal of all governments in comparison. I feel like this isn't really true; Taiwan, and arguably South Korea have more liberal societies and governments.
- distagon 9y agomost evil brothers 1. China 2 Russia 3 . . . . n Vietnam
- dang 9y agoNationalistic flamebait will get you banned here, so please don't post like this again.
- santoriv 9y agoIt's an interesting progression - 5 years ago the Vietnamese government was trying to block Facebook (it was pretty easy to get around). Then they gave up on that and allowed everyone on Facebook, and now they are more concerned with dissent so I guess they are going to patrol social media. It's interesting that they have not decided to return to their previous policy of blocking Facebook. They have some pretty strange policies here. I lived in Dalat, Vietnam for two years and went to an "illegal" Vietnamese language class. A teacher needs to have a license from Hanoi to teach Vietnamese to foreigners. And since it's apparently impossible to get a license, we were studying Vietnamese illegally. Eventually, the local police got wind of it and broke the class up. So all of the foreigners living here are essentially forbidden from learning how to communicate with the locals effectively. It's very bizarre.
- cageface 9y agoThere are universities in Saigon that offer Vietnamese language classes for foreigners so it's definitely not forbidden. As is usually the case in Vietnam, the law depends a lot on when it's interpreted and who is doing the interpreting.
- santoriv 9y agoIt's true that it's not forbidden in Saigon, but it is essentially forbidden in Dalat. I don't know about other towns in Vietnam as I can only speak to my experience.
- taoistextremist 9y agoIs it possible this could be more about controlling dialects and ensuring only the prestige one gets taught to foreigners? Thus (in theory, though unlikely having an effect in practice) forcing people to speak the prestige dialect to do business even with foreigners willing to learn the language.
- adventured 9y agoThe US has gotten a lot closer to Vietnam in terms of trade relations over the last 5 to 10 years. The US now regards Vietnam as a strategic interest to be aggressively developed. The US will import about $50 billion worth of goods from Vietnam in 2017. That's up from $10 billion a decade ago. That's equal to 25% of Vietnam's entire GDP. It's also almost entirely one way, it's about as pure of a trade deficit as they get, so Vietnam is being doused with USD capital the same way China was in the early days of its growth boom. That's going to get a lot more dramatic yet, as the US wants some other large partners to work with in the region. For Vietnam's part, they seem perfectly happy to take the trade & capital inflow and put it to use rapidly expanding their economy.
- StreamBright 9y agoI think more and more countries realize that the Russian subversion warfare is the cheapest and most effective one.
- vim_wannabe 9y agoLooks more like this is modeled after CTR (Correct the Record).
- mrslave 9y agoLondon Metropolitan Police already has an Online Hate Speech Hub with varying reports of staff (5-20?). This is in spite of admissions they do not have enough resources to respond to property offenses.
- vixen99 9y agoThis might be of interest: The UK Crown Prosecution Service uses " definitions agreed with the National Police Chiefs' Council to identify racist or religious incidents/crimes and to monitor the decisions and outcomes: "Any incident/crime which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person's race or perceived race" or "Any incident/crime which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice based on a person's religion or perceived religion." https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-h...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoVery difficult to read when you indent like that. Here is it without the formatting: "Any incident/crime which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person's race or perceived race" or "Any incident/crime which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice based on a person's religion or perceived religion."
- bergoid 9y agoThe Orwellian implications of these definitions are hair-raising. This turns crime into something that is in the eye of the beholder and lies the burden of proof upon the accused.
- deleted 9y ago
- seanlinmt 9y agoIMO, here's a site that gives some pretty good analysis for countries around the world, https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/freedom-press-2017 https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/freedom-press-... Edit: Sorry. https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-net/freedom-net-2017 https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-net/freedom-net-2017
- vectorEQ 9y agoany country with online capabilities have been doing this for a long time now. governments also like brand-defence... don't understand why people need to point at specific ones (*usualy not country of media origin) instead of trying to speak about the moar broad and global issue of this internet policing / trying to discredit/track/stop people with differing views.
- zabana 9y agoGood ole western arrogance / hypocrisy.
- ataturk 9y agoNot sure why you got downvoted for telling the truth. Shareblue and CTR are both comapanies whose employees do nothing all day but shill on message forums and muddy the waters in order to sow confusion online. I am 100% certain it has been going on since at least the Bush II Administration in the US.
- campuscodi 9y agoaka your classical Russian troll farm
- coldtea 9y agoYeah, aka what the media point as the threat du jour.
- kebman 9y agoLet me guess... Facebook and YouTube are going to fold, yet again.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoIf they want to operate somewhere they're going to have to comply with local laws. What is your comprehensive alternate?
- Para2016 9y agoYea, totally agree with you. I hope Facebook helps the Vietnamese agents track down these people and dispose of them. The law is the law, you know.
- ThrowAwayFSp 9y agoYeah! You got that right!. It's all relative. If their culture is to police facebook and dispose of people who has the "wrong opinion", you have to accept that. It's their culture. Don't be a bigot. /s Thank God I can be sarcastic. We're not in Vietnam, Iran, Bangladesh, etc.
- freeflight 9y agoDispose of them? Neither the article nor the report it's based on, say anything at all about arresting people, they are pretty much only shutting down YouTube and Facebook accounts. The same has been happening in the US and plenty of other non-Communist countries, over here we just prefer calling it "War against terror" or "You broke the ToS!".
- jryle70 9y agoOf course, dispose is hyperbole. Still, comparing Vietnam to US or other western countries is utterly disingenuous. Try to go there and live for a few months, see for yourself.
- notduncansmith 9y ago
- unknown_apostle 9y agoSo is this really fundamentally different from the plans in EU and Germany? https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/call-applications-selection-members-high-level-group-fake-news https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/call-appl... It's a dangerous illusion of modernity that you can just pick up a "high quality" newspaper or watch the news and understand what is happening in the world. Or even in your own region. One possible advantage of the total chaos of internet news is that the noise becomes so strong that we can't even receive the signal of traditional news sources with their "expert opinion" anymore.
- addicted 9y agoIt depends on the kind of oversight policies the EU group develops.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- bovermyer 9y agoI wanted to clarify. Are you saying that drowning out reliable journalism with intentional disinformation on social media is a GOOD thing? If so... why?
- nailer 9y agoWho determines reliable journalism? I'm liberal but CNN's had issued a massive amount of retractions for their Russia stories, still has the fake fish feeding article up, the Guardian had to retract their 'unarmed' front page story about the drug dealer with the gun in his car. Making shit up is commonplace, yet media censors inevitably only want to target Breitbart and right sources. It's a plain as day transparent power grab by the hard left.
- bovermyer 9y agoThat's an existing problem, and not an easy one to solve. It will have to rely on independent review. But relying on social networks for news drops both careful research AND independent review, which is a step backward, not forward.