15 ms·
China temporarily shuts down thousands of factories in pollution crackdown
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- alexandercrohde 9y agoI have to commend China for taking drastic action in response to their drastic problem. As I understand it, it's actually very feasible to apply a carbon filter to the smokestack of a factory itself.
- justicezyx 9y agoTotalitarianism does have some benefits.
- polotics 9y ago[citation needed] How is applying the rule of law totalitarian?
- holydude 9y agoBecause sometimes the laws are simply bad and should not be enforced at all costs
- komali2 9y agoBad being subjective...
- mannigfaltig 9y agoTotalitarian systems are quicker to come up with the rules (in this case for self-preservation). And when time matters, then it has obvious advantages.
- maxxxxx 9y agoBusinesses can react quicker because internally they run like dictatorships. That's why I am always wary of people wanting to run government like a business.
- hangonhn 9y agoTotalitarianism always had its benefits but the population is left with no backup mechanism if the group in charge happens to be really bad at their jobs and/or their interests do not line up with those of the population. An efficient government can be a really bad thing when its goals does not align with the population's. One advantage of democracy is that there is a mechanism for peaceful transition of power if the current leadership isn't working. Without this, a country has to resort to armed rebellion. China has historically legitimized armed popular rebellion with the concept of the "mandate of heaven". When an armed popular rebellion topples a dynasty, the previous dynasty is said to have lost its mandate of heaven and the successful rebel leader is said to have gained it. This is why China has historically had dynastic cycles. Democracy is a possible solution for escaping the cycle of often disastrous and very bloody armed rebellions.
- mikeash 9y ago“If you remember nothing else about the superiority of democracies to other forms of government, remember the fact that in three years, we will have a change of leadership and almost no one is stocking up on canned goods to prepare for the inevitable civil war.” - http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-fa... I would go so far as to say that the peaceful transition of power is the defining advantage of democracy.
- thablackbull 9y agoDemocracy, or that standards of living are so high its not worth it to deviate from the status quo? With no political science knowledge, I'm willing to have my view challenged and changed. I think there are 2 elements that are more important than democracy in and of itself. 1. High standards of living that alter the risk-reward ratio for making a political change 2. The rise of Corporations - these days, people view the government as a bureaucratic, slow, and useless entity with decent, but low pay. People aspire to work and move up the ranks in private corporations. The role of the government has been greatly reduced in the ordinary lives of citizens. That means the necessity of making a grand political change is just not as important as it was historically.
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoIt reduces efficiency and you are screwed (out of business) if you do it but your competitor doesn't.
- ourmandave 9y agoSounds like someone in China has finally seen the documentary _Godzilla vs the Smog Monster_ and doesn't want to end up like 1970's Japan. Especially since they don't even have a Godzilla protecting the shore line.
- justicezyx 9y agoChina's push to clean energy and advanced manufacturing to reduce pollution dated back at least to 2003, because I saw people investigating natural gas in an area that can produce high quality coals really cheap (Shanxi province).
- adamnemecek 9y agoChina has been trying hard to change it's image recently.
- tristanj 9y agoChina's central propaganda department spends $10bn+ per year on overseas propaganda, it's no surprise that money is going somewhere.
- komali2 9y agoWell, I'd want to see a source for this, but my personal experience doesn't make it hard to believe that they'd be pumping out externally-facing propaganda. That being said, the changes can be felt on the ground level. Public dialog is changing about climate change.
- tristanj 9y agoThe $10bn figure is from 2 years ago, it's likely higher today https://www.ft.com/content/324d82c4-2d60-11e6-a18d-a96ab29e3c95?mhq5j=e5 https://www.ft.com/content/324d82c4-2d60-11e6-a18d-a96ab29e3...
- whooshee 9y agoFT itself is heavily invested by the Japanese.
- tristanj 9y agoYour point being? It's well known that China spends billions on overseas propaganda. The $10bn on propaganda has been reported in multiple outlets. Does the Nikkei Times article on it somehow make the figure untrue? Also, your entire comment history is just pro-China comments. Why is that the only topic you think is worth discussing on the site?
- whooshee 9y ago
- austinl 9y agoChina is also pushing 1 in 5 cars sold to be electric by 2025. The government definitely seems to be taking the problem seriously. (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/business/china-hastens-the-world-toward-an-electric-car-future.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/business/china-hastens-th...)
- tw04 9y agoAt least someone is... it's a sad, sad day when the supposed "leaders of the free world" insist on burying their heads in the sand WRT: global warming. Even if we ARE wrong, acting as if reducing pollution is a bad thing is just silly.
- WalterSear 9y agoNot if you have access to oil money and don't give a fuck about anyone but yourself.
- komali2 9y agoI think it boils down to short term vs long term thinking, and my friends and I have thrown around all sorts of crazy theories around this. In the context of the USA, could just be that republicans (the anti-climate change prevention party) are simply speaking to their conservative values in some way and want the USA to remain coal-powered with gasoline cars. All change is bad change? Another less tenable theory is that typically conservatives/republicans cater to religious groups, and a tenant of christianity is the only thing that matters on earth is your own works - earth is irrelevant in the face of eternal paradise. I don't buy this one as much but it's fun to chew on. I do feel very strongly though that not taking climate change seriously represents a fundamental inability to comprehend the term "long term investment."
- philk10 9y agoEPA chief: ‘True environmentalism is using natural resources that God has blessed us with’
- davesque 9y agoI guess this is one example of an upside to authoritarianism. When the leadership decides something is important, you'd better get with the program or else... That being said, it's a shame that the US is having difficulty demonstrating the upsides of democracy and capitalism on this front.
- PeachPlum 9y agoYou just need the will EPA Bans PCB Manufacture; Phases Out Uses EPA press release - April 19, 1979 https://archive.epa.gov/epa/aboutepa/epa-bans-pcb-manufacture-phases-out-uses.html https://archive.epa.gov/epa/aboutepa/epa-bans-pcb-manufactur...
- michalxnet 9y agoXi is smart guy and must be sad seeing this every day https://www.windy.com/overlays?cosc,33.358,107.644,5 https://www.windy.com/overlays?cosc,33.358,107.644,5
- throwaway2016a 9y agoThanks for pointing out that site. That is an awesome map. I find it very interesting / telling that the US has bright red areas for CO2 as well but all of them are at major shipping ports and in the ocean. Not surprising seeing how much pollution shipping creates.
- stephengillie 9y agoWhy does the Grand Canyon have such a huge pocket of CO? It's over 1200ppbv. Is there currently a forest fire there? The air quality there looks as bad as over Staten Island or some Chinese cities.
- jccooper 9y agoThere's a major fire south of that, in the middle of the state. But not right there, so far as I know.
- keithlfrost 9y agoThat pocket looks rather like an anomaly in the data. There is a very large coal-fired power plant (Navajo Generating Station) near Page, Arizona, though.
- booleanbetrayal 9y agoGreat site ... thanks for this reference!
- xiii1408 9y agomsn.com??? Wonderful 90s throwback. Didn't realize this still existed.
- darkstar999 9y agoIt's still the #46 website in the world according to Alexa.
- TeMPOraL 9y agoI didn't realize Alexa is still considered as a good source of data.
- Siecje 9y agoMy Grandfather still uses it on less than ideal Internet speeds and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and slower and slower for him.
- nopinsight 9y agoA less mentioned reason for pollution curb is that China wants to attract their top talents back home, as well as global up-and-comers who wish for more accommodative research funding. Most top Chinese students who studied abroad are currently residing in the US, working in major tech companies and academia. They created the Thousand Talents program for promising and distinguished researchers, Chinese or otherwise, to work and stay in the country with salary comparable to the West, in nominal terms, and many extra privileges. [1] Pollution is a major concern among those who are interested and this gives additional urgency to the government. Basically, they understand very well that top talents are essential for developing advanced technologies they need, and they are pushing very hard to develop native talents and attract promising ones from other countries. This is the Singapore playbook that has propelled their two universities into major institutions in engineering and other fields within a few decades. (Engineering programs in both Singaporean universities are now ranked in the top 10 or 20 in the world. Also, both Tsinghua and Beijing are ranked in the world's top 10 in AI publications recently, but they plan for more universities to move up in more fields.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand_Talents_Program_(China) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand_Talents_Program_(Ch...
- bustrakcan 9y ago> Basically, they understand very well that top talents are essential for developing advanced technology they need Because companies around the world are now aware of the fact that Chinese government steals technologies. Also, Chinese government is too late trying to get talents back. Most of the laowais (expats) that were in Guangzhou, that were in technology, have left in recent years. The only foreigners left are africans trying to eek out a living and English teachers who can't make it anywhere else. You can imagine the reasons why: poisonous air that will give you cancer, poisonous food that will give you cancer, dirty water that will give you cancer, horrendous traffic (and everyone driving around honking and disregarding rules), bad mannered locals (imagine jackhammering at 4am, spitting, elbowing, cutting in lines), censorship, foreigners getting arrested without a reason, expensive rent (compared to quality), no way to be connected to the western internet without VPN (and recently, VPN have been failing as well), no way to talk to families overseas. And this is in the top province in China. Imagine tier 88 or even tier 2 cities. (shudder) There's no reason to be in China other than to make money, then get the hell out. And that seems to be even harder now with the economy stagnating and everyone blowing bubbles into the real estate. Thank god I got out of China. Many already have.
- Animats 9y agoIt took only about 10 years after the Clean Air Act in the US before the big cities such as Cleveland and Pittsburgh had clear skies. China should be able to do it faster, since the technology already exists and cars already come with pollution controls.
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoChina's biggest problem in doing this is not technological, but based on the fact the party doesn't believe in rule of law, so their are nonmechanisms to enforce regulation beyond official fiat and periodic crackdowns, neither of which are sustainable in the long term. They have crackdowned before, many times actually, but without real continuous enforcement of rules, factory owners are caught in a horrible prisoners dilemma given how hyper competitive production is (if your competitor cheats and you don't, you'll be out of business quickly). In this case, political reform is directly related to the environment.
- averagewall 9y agoAn anecdote, but I know of a factory that's had severely limited production for about a year due to pollution. The enforcement is ongoing. They do get away it breaking the rules a bit because the inspectors are corrupt, and there's some warning before they come but it's not a complete free-for-all.
- Animats 9y agoYes. Some inspector who was trying to get a sample of Diesel fuel from a distributor to test for sulfur and such was told "you have the obligation to do that, but not the authority." Here are the rules for Diesel fuel in China.[1] The official standard for sulfur has been been slowly lowered from 0.2% to 10 ppm, but enforcement is weak. There's a weaker standard for "nonroad Diesel" for tractors and such. It's observed that at night, when the blue trucks roll into Shenzhen, the pollution level goes way up, because they're using "nonroad Diesel". The US is now <15ppm sulfur for all Diesel uses except ships. It took 25 years to get there. The EPA is (was?) trying to get ships down to 1000ppm within 200 miles of the US. It's not that hard to enforce this, because there aren't that many refineries. China has only 75 refineries. The US has about 125. Not that many places need to be inspected. [1] https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cn/fuel.php https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cn/fuel.php
- United857 9y agoI'm more than willing to bet that this is due to the Communist Party Congress and the attendant media spotlight shining on China. They did the same thing during the Olympics. Afterwards, though -- same old same old...
- cepth 9y agoAlso happened during the 2016 G20 summit in Hangzhou. There's a Chinese phrase for it, "G20 blue" or "G20蓝". (https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2016/08/26/china-basks-in-g-20-blue-as-factories-ordered-to-shut/ https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2016/08/26/china-basks-i...) That said, this doesn't seem to be a localized shutdown, of the kind we saw during the Olympics or G20 summit. I know of a number of Chinese factories in industries ranging from finished wood products to consumer electronics that have been shutdown nationwide for "environmental audits".
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoYa, temporary and unsustainable. This probably isn't the start of something transformative.
- tryingagainbro 9y agoEventually they had /have to do it. Looks like you need to poison your air to industrialize but after a while you need clean up. Part of the trend. After people achieve a few basic needs they ask for cleaner air, less asthma and cancer. Talking abut...efficiency. Can we guess some many lawsuits will be filed in courts against this? I'm guessing, zero. Must have been illegal all the time, but tolerated, until it wasn't.
- stephengillie 9y agoHow will this impact imports and the US economy? Are there any mid-Kickstarter businesses who are having to refund donations because the factory cancelled their work?
- chiefalchemist 9y agoWhen the USA exported it's manufacturing, it also exported the associated pollution. That being said, just because the pollution is manufactured overseas doesn't mean the USA won't eventually breathe, drink or eat it. The USA might have cleaned up its own backyard but that doesn't mean net pollution from US consumption is down.
- syrrim 9y agoThere are a billion people in china, I have a hard time imagining that none of them contribute to polution for their own ends.
- chiefalchemist 9y agoCertainly they do. But when the factories left America for China, so did their smokestacks. For all intents and purposes America outsourced it's pollution problems. Yet no one talks about that? Why do you think that is? p.s. Regardless of China's billion+, the USA still out consumes them.
- ransom1538 9y agoI believe the world is warming through man made causes. However, I think it is just a byproduct of overpopulation. Pollution cannot be stopped with a exponential population curve. So turn off plants, recycle, re-arrange chairs, and volunteer all you want - but, in, 2040 I am not sure how we will support 9billion - without lots of waste.
- killjoywashere 9y agoRead Hank Paulson's book, Dealing with China. That's a the former CEO of Goldman Sachs who opened the Chinese banking markets, and became Secretary of Treasury, overseeing the financial collapse here in 2008 (1). It's from 2015, goes up through October 2014. He knows Xi. Well. Read that book. https://www.amazon.com/Dealing-China-Insider-Economic-Superpower/dp/1455504203 https://www.amazon.com/Dealing-China-Insider-Economic-Superp...
- tomkat0789 9y ago> This has temporarily stopped production from wide swaths of factories along China’s east coast and forced some factory owners to move supply chains to other countries. What's the next country down in the environmental/cheap labor race to the bottom? Is India about to see huge manufacturing growth?
- dforrestwilson 9y agoMalaysia and Indonesia. Some smaller companies have already shifted there.
- vfulco 9y agoThis year I assisted some displaced workers in SH whose jobs were being moved by a Fortune 1000 company from PRC to Malaysia. The exodus is real and companies have to diversify their risks.
- xkcd-sucks 9y agoAll the African countries with Chinese factories in them?
- jbrun 9y agoWe are seeing increased action on environmental compliance in China. Our SaaS company offers tools to help businesses comply to environmental (and safety and quality laws). We recently bought a company in China that is in the same business and I can tell you that the citizens are very happy with government initiatives and companies are taking this seriously. (Separate post coming about SaaS in China). I have lived in China for 1.5 years in 2005, 2010 and returning a lot now and I have travelled pretty much everywhere in the country, in my humble opinion, China is on a very interesting path that will make it hard for the US and EU to compete in a variety of sectors. We shall see. https://www.nimonik.com https://www.nimonik.com and http://www.envitool.com http://www.envitool.com are the companies in question.
- vfulco 9y agoGood luck with the new initiative. Can't come quickly enough and should provide growth for decades. I live in SH and run a professional services company. At the margin, does seem attempts are being made. Vince Fulco, CFA, CAIA Weisisheng Consulting vfulco[@]weisisheng.cn
- keebEz 9y agoFlexport wrote a blog post on this a few weeks ago as the first waves it were happening: https://www.flexport.com/blog/massive-factory-closures-china-cracks-polluters/ https://www.flexport.com/blog/massive-factory-closures-china...
- xvilka 9y agoThe funny thing about many US and EU enviroment protection supporters, that they drive an abandonement of almost pure nuclear energy use, while increasing the dependecy on coal and oil energy plants... And those produce not only chemical, but also a radiological pollution.