53 ms·

Introducing Surface Book 2

374 points by AlexeyBrin 9y ago

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
fhood 9y ago
Why does every single high end laptop need to look exactly like a macbook? I want anybody who doesn't believe me to google up a picture of one next to the other.
- fredley 9y ago
  This... looks nothing like a macbook. It's got a matte metallic frame and a black bezel, but that's about where the similarities end as far as it looks to me.
  - needz 9y ago
    Are we looking at the same thing? It looks incredibly similar to Macbooks.
    - fredley 9y ago
      Aside from the colours/finish, what's the same? Looking at the macbook in front of me and the image here they're totally different: the hinge, the keyboard, the vents, the ports, no touch bar, no speaker grills etc. Everything else is just laptop fundamental design, e.g. it is primarily composed of two slabs and a hinge, with a keyboard and trackpad in ergonomically optimal places.
    - freeone3000 9y ago
      No, macbooks close flat. This closes into a wedge, with the rear hinge approximately one-half-inch higher than the front when closed, with a gap between screen and keyboard. In addition, macbooks are bezel-filled and sleek, where this emphasizes straight edges. Horizontal corners are rounded, but vertical edges are square. Keyboard is also very square, instead of the rounded rects favored by macbooks. About the only thing that's the same is that they're both aluminum white laptops.
- waegawegawe 9y ago
  I think what you mean is, "why do so many high end laptops have thin, metal, unibody chassis?" But, when you ask the question that way, it kind of answers itself. People like metal, because it feels more high end than plastic. Unibody chassis don't need to be fastened together, which is good for manufacturing and looks. People like thin laptops because they are more portable than thick ones.
  - freeone3000 9y ago
    It's technically not unibody, the keyboard (and its GPU) detach.
    - linarism 9y ago
      You may also find that the unibody MB has the screen portion housed in a different aluminum block than the body. Semantics are dumb.
  - jrs95 9y ago
    Unibody helps make it thinner, too. A traditional laptop design had to have both structrual components and outer casing -- unibody designs do both and save space
- bhauer 9y ago
  It's magnesium and not aluminum. Its keyboard is color-matched to the metal. Its screen detaches. Its trackpad doesn't take up the entire space between the keyboard and the edge. Its chamfered edge is the full width of the trackpad so you don't hurt your wrist. It has the Surface Book's signature "fulcrum hinge" and the associated gap. Its display has air vents. Both the base and the display are the same thickness. But it's a metal laptop that comes in two sizes, so it looks like a MacBook to some people.
GEBBL 9y ago
Is anyone excited?
- acqq 9y ago
  Seeing in the article: > Surface Book 2 brings you a full array of ports, including USB-A, USB-C, and full-size SD card reader which makes it easy to connect other devices, accessories and memory cards without the need for a bag full of dongles. I find there is a good reason to like it, compared to this: https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c
- rhexs 9y ago
  Well, I bought the Surface Book 1 and returned it after a month of it barely working. So no, not really.
  - kanishkdudeja 9y ago
    What issues did you face?
    - rhexs 9y ago
      A better question is, what issues didn't I face? Unlocking randomly wouldn't work, the display driver was crashing when using firefox/chrome consistently, battery life was abysmal, device would bluescreen, etc. From what I understand they finally patched most of these out after more than a year. No need to go on that roller coaster again.
      - kanishkdudeja 9y ago
        Really strange how big corporations put out devices before testing them out properly!
      - bobjordan 9y ago
        Yes, from my experience all that eventually got fixed. For the first six months that I owned my surface book, I continued to use my rMBP. But by now, I really do enjoy using it as my primary computer. What I like most about it is using it with two external monitors connected to the expansion dock. I flip the screen around on my suface book and then place it in the middle between the external monitors and hook up a wireless keyboard and mouse. This triple monitor mode is awesome and perfect for doing some sketching or use my programming IDE on the surface book while having the other two monitors available for productivity. I replicated this setup at the office and home and now I can't imagine going back.
reynoldsbd 9y ago
Finally, USB-C in a Surface product!
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  I'm actually really glad they have up until now left USB-C out. We're at a point in USB-C's life I'd consider it an anti-feature, and the Surface Book 2's no exception: This particular USB-C port is really only useful for adding a second display. It's more or less fine as an extra port, but anywhere it takes away a Type A port, or even the Mini-DP it replaced is a little sad. Marco Arment posted this a couple days ago, and it sums up... some of... the issues with USB-C: https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c
  - chx 9y ago
    We had a discussion stemming from that article at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15473777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15473777 My take (it's not positive): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15474131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15474131 It certainly has its quirks and limitations.
  - deno 9y ago
    For a mobile device one big plus of USB-C is USB-PD and the ecosystem of fast chargers and power banks it brings/will-bring. You can also use one charger for both your phone and laptop, which is useful even if you can’t charge both at the same time. Ignore everything else and it’s a nice upgrade just for this.
    - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
      My Surface Pro charger (the same one that comes with the Surface Book IIRC) has a USB port for charging phones as well, and unlike a USB-C charger, charges both at the same time. While I lament non-standard implementations, much like Apple's old MagSafe adapter and the Surface connector, sometimes the non-standard version is vastly superior.
bhouston 9y ago
Nvidia 1060 and 1050? Nice. I assume it is 4GB and 6GB respectively? This really makes it incredibly powerful. I run with dual 4k monitors off of a Dell XPS with an Nvidia 1050 with 4GB. Feels like a desktop. (Does this also support 32GB of RAM? That is required for development these days with multiple containers running locally. My Dell XPS 15" supports 32GB of RAM.)
- rayiner 9y ago
  It appears to max out at 16GB for the same reason as the rMBP (current Intel processors are limited to 16GB of LPDDR3).
  - sitkack 9y ago
    Many Lenovo Thinkpads and HP ZBooks, the mobile workstation lines, support 64GB of ECC memory when paired with a Xeon. And 64GB of non-ECC when using a Core processor. Hell even the "ultrabook" workstation from HP, the ZBook Studio supports 32GB of ram [0]. One has to trade capacity for speed. 16GB is such a wall now, it makes me think Intel crippled their latest chips because they are too good. [0] http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/getpdf.aspx/c04832209.pdf?ver=11 http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/getpdf.aspx/c04832209.pdf?ver=1...
    - masklinn 9y ago
      > Many Lenovo Thinkpads and HP ZBooks, the mobile workstation lines The SB is not a workstation. It uses 15W U CPUs… > One has to trade capacity for speed. DDR4 trades battery for capacity, that's why "ultrabooks" concerned about the balance of weight and battery life are limited to 16GB: intel does not support lpddr4.
      - zeusk 9y ago
        They use upTDP (20w~24w). Also, you'd be surprised. Even while gaming, my current surface pro maintains 3.1 GHz and reaches 4.1 on short bursts. Look around the web, if you can keep the surface cool enough, they never PL (power limit) throttle unlike most other Intel -U based devices.
kanishkdudeja 9y ago
The i5 variant comes with just 8 GB RAM. Would have considered if they had given an option for 16 GB RAM. Being a developer, 8 GB seems tight these days! 15-inch 16 GB variant comes with i7 but the price is a little too steep (starts from 2500 USD)
- bpicolo 9y ago
  Where do you see that the i5 doesn't support 16GB? The specs list on microsoft.com seem to just say "i5 or i7, 8GB or 16GB RAM"
  - kanishkdudeja 9y ago
    Check the bottom section of this page: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book-2/overview https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book...
    - bpicolo 9y ago
      Might still be a configuration option, that just looks like base specs (but also, maybe not)? They're hardcore trying to push the i7 upsell on that page
- TheCoreh 9y ago
  To be fair, if you're developer, you'll probably also want an i7 (since a lot of compilation tasks are highly parallel and the extra cores will help a lot)
  - kanishkdudeja 9y ago
    That's right. But the i7 15-inch line starts from 2500 USD. I think lots of developers won't be able to afford at that price point.
    - bpicolo 9y ago
      i7 13.5" starts at 1,999. Still pretty crazy that prices are turning the opposite direction lately.
pmontra 9y ago
A 15" non Apple laptop without numberpad, plus a 3:2 display: joy! I don't need a new laptop now but I hope other manufacturers will follow. No number pad means that the touchpad in centered with the screen and the keyboard so I wouldn't have to slide the laptop to the right to have the important keys and the touchpad in front of me. 3:2 * 5.33 = 16:10.66, so extra vertical space.
avenoir 9y ago
How's the track pad on these things? The track pad on the latest XPS is atrocious and at times unusable.
- kanishkdudeja 9y ago
  Can't agree more on this. I wish the fall creators update pushes out some kind of driver update for it.
- cstejerean 9y ago
  If it’s anything like the first surface book then it’s likely to be pretty bad. I had to carry a mouse with me at all times to be able to properly use the surface book. So far Apple laptops are the only one’s with a trackpad I can actually use all day and not miss having a separate mouse (for work not gaming obviously).
- bhauer 9y ago
  I find the trackpad on the original Surface Book to be good. As good as any MacBook I've used, but I'm not a Mac user, so I don't think I can speak to the more subtle differences. Most reviews of the original Surface Book concur that it's "nearly" as good as the MacBook's trackpads. Also remember that the display is a touch screen.
  - lambda_lover 9y ago
    While I do love the Mac trackpad, the important part is the amazing gestures built into OS X- things like workspace switching and window management are far easier in OS X as a result. But maybe that makes a more dramatic difference for me because I've always disliked alt+tab.
- xeromal 9y ago
  I've had a SB1 since it was released and never had issues with the trackpad. Works just fine for me.
trothamel 9y ago
A bit of headline fail there: "Introducing Surface Book 2, the most powerful Surface Book ever" Out of the two of them so far?
- Rhapso 9y ago
  No it is a prophecy: The rest of them will be less powerful.
  - matthew349hall 9y ago
    Haha yes
- dandare 9y ago
  Thank you Apple for introducing this meaningless phrase to humanity's discourse.
  - rob74 9y ago
    They talk the Apple talk, but can they walk the Apple walk? ;)
  - jamesrcole 9y ago
    It's not meaningless. There's two reasons. Improvements along a particular dimension aren't always a given. If they said "Introducing the Apple iPhone 8 Plus, the lightest iPhone ever" they'd be lying. You can't assume that a newer model of something is always going to be more powerful. Language isn't purely literal. Especially when there's a limited number of words to market to people. You can't write a 10 000 essay. So mentioning a detail isn't just to communicate the literal facts, it's to highlight details, point out significant details. So when someone says "it's the most X ever" they are saying that the improvements are significant enough to make them notable.
- reboog711 9y ago
  Technically, 3 of them because they had a mini-refresh of the "Surface Book with Performance Base" around 1 year after the initial release.
rayiner 9y ago
The pricing is brutal.[1] About $100-$300 more than the 15" Macbook Pro with the same amount of storage. The base model is particularly shameful, with only 8GB of RAM. The base MBP is 16GB for $100 less. You can't configure the RAM amount, so $2,900 is the cheapest 15" model with 16GB. [1] Or perhaps it's more that the configuration options are really inflexible, with every configuration having the highest-end CPU and GPU.
- jaxondu 9y ago
  With that price you get "twice as powerful as the latest MacBook Pro. ...up to 17 hours of video playback. That’s 70% more than the latest MacBook Pro."
  - j4kp07 9y ago
    I'll believe those figure on battery life when someone independent confirms it.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    The “twice as powerful” is almost certainly just about the GPU. The CPU is a U series part versus the HQ series part in the MBP.
    - rdslw 9y ago
      Industry secret: apple throttles those cpu to 20W.
      - rayiner 9y ago
        Source?
        rdslw 9y ago
        LOL. This very discussion on HN. And dozens of results after googling with 'apple cpu macbook pro TDP'.
pg_is_a_butt 9y ago
Does is still feature the Intel Management Engine backdoor for government spying, even while powered off?
Jaqua 9y ago
Looks like a proper MacBook Pro replacement HW wise, but the OS is not one I would use for work.. =/ So attached to OSX for the past 6 years and cannot see me using a windows OS for work , but at home only for gaming. The new MacBook Pro has many flaws. Not sure how this compares in real use for it?
- zeveb 9y ago
  I imagine that it can run Linux, right — if not now, soon. I personally much prefer Linux to both macOS & Windows, although obviously tastes differ. I get a tiling WM with no cruft, I can completely control my UI, I can get work done quickly and easily.
  - kanishkdudeja 9y ago
    The stylus and the touch might not work perfectly with Linux.
    - masklinn 9y ago
      On the SB1, IIRC the touch screen worked but the dGPU, bluetooth and camera did not, you needed a patched kernel for hardware buttons and wifi, and hibernation didn't work (and the hardware didn't properly support suspend to ram). Not sure about the "tablet" mode.
    - jjuel 9y ago
      If the parent is using a tiling WM I doubt they need the touch or the stylus much.
  - jackielii 9y ago
    Same here. I can live without touch or stylus, just want a performance laptop with good screen (3:2 ratio) and keyboard.
    - artursapek 9y ago
      Thinkpad?
pbnjay 9y ago
Why do no pics show the USB-A side of the system clearly? It's like they only want to talk about USB-C. Also I can't tell if it does USB-C Power Delivery or not? Or would I still need a separate charger for this? Would be really nice to only carry one charger for phone and laptop...
- Jaqua 9y ago
  What phone charges with USB-C? From here: https://www.windowscentral.com/surface-book-2-tech-specs https://www.windowscentral.com/surface-book-2-tech-specs "Microsoft is still using its proprietary Surface Connect for power and the optional Surface Dock." aaah.. at the end: "Users can also recharge the Surface Book 2 with a USB Type-C charger as long as it is powerful enough. Devices can be charged from the Surface Book 2, such as a phone using USB Type-C."
  - dangrossman 9y ago
    I have a Nexus 5X, my wife has a Nexus 6P, and my computer is a Dell XPS 13. We charge all three with a USB-C charger, which means less cords and adapters around the house and in the car.
  - Slaul 9y ago
    My Nexus 6P charges with USB-C.
  - ageitgey 9y ago
    USB-C is pretty standard on Android now. Most newer Android phones have moved to USB-C, including Samsung's S8 and Note 8. All of Google's own branded phones have used USB-C for a coupe of years now.
  - xexers 9y ago
    It's good to see that Type-C is becoming the standard laptop charger on new laptops!
  - igravious 9y ago
    currently different 210 handsets according to the GSM Arena database. https://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?chkUSBC=selected https://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?chkUSBC=selected
dandare 9y ago
How tall is the hinge when closed?
- bhauer 9y ago
  It looks the same as the original Surface Book, which puts it at approximately 1 inch.
andr 9y ago
Any experiences with dual booting in to Linux on the Surface Book? I can imagine some things, like detaching not working optimally, but does it work at all?
- kanishkdudeja 9y ago
  Check comment on the page by masklinn
- AlphaWeaver 9y ago
  Not a duel boot, but I regularly use the Windows Subsystem for Linux on my Surface Book for work and personal development, I've had no problems whatsoever. Works like a dream, and if you stick an X server on your computer, X applications pretty much just _work._ If you haven't yet, it's worth looking into.
- sleibrock 9y ago
  I've used Linux on a Surface 3 so I imagine it'll be a similar story for the Book: many things won't play as nice as they would under Windows (sleeping when closing it, WiFi), things like the touch screen might not play ball, and the graphics drivers might not work. Linux 4.9 aimed to make the Surface usable, but I haven't found a distro that played with the Wifi drivers nicely (would work for a few minutes, then would shut off, become unresponsive, and required a hard reboot to get working again). There is a Fedora Surface image that many suggest works really well on Surfaces, but I couldn't get it to boot. Now I just prefer using a Virtualbox image to do all my Linux stuff. It's easier to set up and requires far less rebooting.
- Bedon292 9y ago
  I am not sure how well it would work to even get Linux on it. I thought they had a fairly locked down boot loader. And no way there is a good driver for the screen release. On the other hand, I have never even contemplated dual booting it because WSL does everything I need Linux for. It is actually pretty good.
- cube2222 9y ago
  Try to use Windows Subsystem for Linux and Docker for Windows. They are both beautifully integrated and work like a charm.
avcdsuia 9y ago
Now I want a 3:2 MacBook Pro 15'', the display ratio that Mac notebook used to have(PowerBook G4). 3:2 is much more comfortable working with, enough vertical space for reading code and no sacrifice for horizontal space.
- jackielii 9y ago
  Thinkpad in 3:2 for me
- leadingthenet 9y ago
  I’d love this. 16:9(10) is probably the worst aspect ratio ever to be made standard on laptops. How the hell did people think it was a good idea?
  - masklinn 9y ago
    > 16:9(10) 16:9 can't be equated to and is significantly worse than 16:10, which is worse than 3:2, which is worse than 4:3 (which is coming back on tablets). There were even 5:4 displays at one point (early days of desktop LCD, I still have my 1280x1024 19" ViewSonic VP191b). Assuming 15" diagonals on all of them: * a 16:9 display is 96 sq in and 7.4" high * a 16:10 display is 101 sq in and 7.9" high * a 3:2 display is 104 sq in and 8.3" high * a 4:3 display is 108 sq in and 9" high * a 5:4 display is 110 sq in and 9.4" high As you can see, 16:10 -> 16:9 is actually the largest loss in surface area and second-largest loss of height (largest being 4:3 -> 3:2). However if you're watching a movie, the 16:9 has 100% coverage for 16:9 and 75% coverage for Cinemascope, every other format gets lower in both relative and absolute coverage, down to 70% (77 sq in) and 53% (58 sq in) for a 5:4. > How the hell did people think it was a good idea? Black bars on movies, better view angles in FPS, and cheaper.
sitkack 9y ago
Still stuck with only 16GB of ram, https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book-2/tech-specs https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book...
- masklinn 9y ago
  Unsurprisingly, any laptop which cares about battery life will remain limited to 16GB until Intel supports LPDDR4.
wallabie 9y ago
Interesting. Does anyone here actually use the dial, or know someone that does? Otherwise, it doesn't look like a compelling upgrade to my Surface Book (1) though. Even though I paid an arm a leg for it, I've grown to love it over time. Glad they are providing both 13" and 15" options though.
- kanishkdudeja 9y ago
  Are you comfortable with the touchpad of your Surface Book 1?
  - AlphaWeaver 9y ago
    Not the OP, but I have a SB1 and the touchpad has had no problems. Works very well, and is natural for me to use.
  - wallabie 9y ago
    The one on my MBP 2014 is definitely superior, but I don't mind it. Gets the job done, and I found it precise enough to work on corporate presentations, a place where neurotic detail reigns.
prions 9y ago
Hopefully they improved the wobbly hinge/upper half and the sharp scratchy corners.
inetknght 9y ago
Can I wipe out Windows and put a better OS on it?
- kanishkdudeja 9y ago
  You could try out Hackintosh/Linux but not sure how compatible would it be in the beginning. Issues will need to be tinkered with and fixed.
  - dm319 9y ago
    Yes, and there isn't a great history with getting surface's to work well with linux - though I think things are much better now. Still, probably much easier than getting linux on it than a macbook pro.
- zerr 9y ago
  I'm more interested if one can put better Windows (Win7) on it.
  - inetknght 9y ago
    I also count that as a better OS
  - overgryphon 9y ago
    You could, but not without sacrificing many of the features that make the Surface Book unique. The pen support in Windows 7 is significantly worse, and face authentication wouldn't work. Windows 7 isn't very usable on a tablet. To use the GPU when you reattached the tablet you'd likely have to reboot the machine, also a much slower operation on Windows 7. If you don't want the above features, you could get a machine that runs Windows 7 well with good hardware specs for less money.
kanishkdudeja 9y ago
I hope they decrease bezels and make it more sexy, like the Dell XPS, in future versions.
- bostand 9y ago
  Please don't. It's a tablet, it needs some bezels.
  - digi_owl 9y ago
    In particular as Windows 10 in tablet mode makes use of gestures that involve swiping in from outside the screen edge.
skywhopper 9y ago
This is a good example of how Microsoft often does marketing poorly. The text reads like a script for an in-person product launch. On the page it doesn't even make sense "When you think about Microsoft and you hear our mission – to empower every person and every organization on the planet to achieve more – it’s powerful." What? And then after all of that, you click through to the store and there's no pricing information whatsoever and no pre-order date on the store page (there is a date buried in all the text in the announcement), just an unfriendly "Not available" broken button... no price, no date, and I don't even remember what was supposed to be interesting about the thing. Something about having more pixels than a Mac. Whatever interest I had in the product evaporated a long time ago, but the lack of concrete info on price makes me forget about it entirely. Edited to add: Oh cool, I just went back to the page and noticed the "Microsoft Band", a product that was officially discontinued over a year ago, is prominently featured in the navigation bar across the top of the page. Good work, team!
- masklinn 9y ago
  Yeah it's really frustrating. * this page is an ad copy with very little of interest * the store page (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/d/surface-book-2/8MCPZJJCC98C/2LCR?icid=HP_Hero1_SurfaceBook2_101717_en-us https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/d/surface-book-2/8MCPZ...) has no date, no price and only hints at specs (you can pick a model but have no idea that e.g. the 13.5" i5 is iGP and the i7 is dGPU) * https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book-2/tech-specs https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book... has the actual stuff you want, with a detailed specs breakdown and the price of every configuration although even there are incoherences (Tech Specs states the 15" has 16GB RAM, but "Configure" lists an 8GB 15" configuration)
  - skywhopper 9y ago
    Oh, cool, thanks for pointing me to the actual prices.
  - Sujan 9y ago
    Now I wish I hadn't found the prices...
yoz-y 9y ago
What is the main reason behind the 17 hour battery life, mainly in comparison to a MacBook Pro? Does this come mainly from the battery size, power management in the OS or components?
- skywhopper 9y ago
  Given that the only battery life number they quote is for video playback (with no specs about the video format, bitrate, resolution, full-screen state, etc), I suspect that number just happens to be extra high when you choose the optimal video in the optimal format and play it full screen (so the OS can stop spending cycles on UI rendering). Note that Apple specifies 10 hours of "iTunes Movie playback" for the 15-inch Macbook Pro. It's probably possible to improve on that with some other format. Apple also gives a quote for "wireless web" usage (the same 10 hours). The 15-inch Surface Book 2 is also significantly thicker and about 5% heavier than a 15-inch Macbook Pro. So I'm sure more battery plays a role as well.
  - cube2222 9y ago
    They advertised 13.5 video playback for the sp2017 and I'm getting 7-10 real world usage. But people have said to actually use their sb's for 13 hours, so it'll probably be 11-16 hours of real world usage.
- vladimirralev 9y ago
  They use core i7-8650U which is a 15W while the MBP uses HQ model which is 47W. And the low power idle mode difference is even larger 5W vs 20, not entirely sure about the 20.
PascLeRasc 9y ago
I can't stand when companies say the latest version of a product is "the most powerful one ever". Why would that ever not be the case?
- mrkstu 9y ago
  Mac Minis
- zcoyle 9y ago
  Even worse, they have both "most powerful ever" and "most powerful yet" in the copy. That reads really sloppy to to me.
- petecox 9y ago
  Power is something you want to use less of when constrained by battery life, surely!:)
  - PascLeRasc 9y ago
    Efficient would be a better word to use then.
darklajid 9y ago
Looks not too bad, but I'm kinda interested in a Ryzen based laptop. And for that .. there's basically nothing yet (a Lenovo that is based on ~outdated~ tech just came out, a HP is announced and seems limited in its RAM options/potentially limited to single-channel and crippling the APU and a monster of a gaming laptop with desktop CPUs that is basically not usable if you ever want to carry it or use it without a power supply). I like the design, but the price is far too high - for me - and I'm neither a fan of Intel nor NVidia.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  I don't think there are laptop Ryzen variants out yet, thus the only "laptops" that exist use desktop Ryzen variants and are squarely aimed at gamers.
  - darklajid 9y ago
    Lenovo A475[1] is using a mobile version afaict. Unfortunately .. it's based on Bristol. HP Envy x360 [2] seems to come out ~soon~ based on Raven, but the outlets/the community seems concerned that they'll limit those to single-channel. Which according to reviews in the past severely cripples the whole setup. That said, details aren't out so maybe HP does the right thing.. So potentially two options I'm aware of, one flawed and one potentially flawed. The only other one I found was a (gaming) monster from ASUS that is not a laptop in my world.. 1: HK link, sorry for that: https://www3.lenovo.com/hk/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-a-series/ThinkPad-A475/p/22TP2TAA475 https://www3.lenovo.com/hk/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-a-se... 2: German link, sorry for that: https://www.computerbase.de/2017-10/raven-ridge-hp-notebook-amd-ryzen-5-2500u/ https://www.computerbase.de/2017-10/raven-ridge-hp-notebook-...
    - digi_owl 9y ago
      That reminds me. I got kinda burned by AMDs laptop APUs a while back. This because the laptop i have seems to route the external screen through the iGPU, and AMD discontinued support for it quite early because it was a variant of their older GPU models. Thus i am stuck using their older driver pack, and ever so often i have to beat back Windows trying to auto-update the driver...
michaelmior 9y ago
> You won’t believe how much the colors and 3D images will pop in PowerPoint on these machines. That sounds like a horrible way to convince me I want this.
- n0clu 9y ago
  What? Thinking about default theme PowerPoint presentations doesn't get you salivating at the screen?
pier25 9y ago
I bought a SB last year and returned it after a couple of days since it was full of problems with the GPU and pen[1]. The machine was beautiful and both the keyboard and trackpad felt amazing, but even if my unit was defective the pen and tablet experience were poor compared to something like an iPad Pro. Also the display was really sharp in terms of resolution but suffered from an insane amount of ghosting while scrolling[2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XLVgpD-Dtc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XLVgpD-Dtc [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcOwjj2UWtw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcOwjj2UWtw
- baldfat 9y ago
  > the pen and tablet experience were poor compared to something like an iPad Pro Of course it would be. How would it be different if it is a Windows Machine and not a mobile device?
  - pier25 9y ago
    Because half of it is actually a tablet with touch functionality. Windows prompts a touch keyboard and has other features, but the experience is really poor generally speaking.
    - baldfat 9y ago
      But it isn't a mobile device. A mobile device (Android or iOS) is just a one slice user experience. Also the pen isn't for gui interface, but it is for doing creative art.
      - pier25 9y ago
        > But it isn't a mobile device We can argue semantics if you wish, but the truth is the Surface line is being sold as 2 in 1 devices that wants to combine a tablet and a laptop. > Also the pen isn't for gui interface, but it is for doing creative art. Same thing on the iPad Pro or a Wacom MobileStudio which have much better stili than the Surface line. What is your point?
- 9y ago
staticelf 9y ago
So many negative comments just because it's Microsoft. If you don't like the OS, obviously this machine is not for you. Personally I think it looks nice, but I have a Surface Pro 2 that works just perfectly fine and I love it. The hardware on it is still good and I don't see any reason to upgrade.
- AlphaWeaver 9y ago
  I think that in itself speaks to the quality of the Surface device line... I myself have the first Surface Book, and I will likely upgrade to the 2 at some point, but not because my current device doesn't serve me well... I'm glad this thing is still working like new and I don't have huge urges to upgrade because I suddenly feel inferior, like some other tech companies try to pull... EDIT: Don't work for MS, just a happy Surface owner.
  - staticelf 9y ago
    Yes, the machines they produce is very high quality and lasts a very long time. Longer than any other laptop I have used. Even if I have used it for quite some time it still feel fresh and performant.
    - ant512 9y ago
      Last I heard MS were having reliability problems with the Surface: "The breakage rate for Microsoft Corp’s Surface devices is significantly worse than for other manufacturers’ laptops and tablets, Consumer Reports said, adding that it was removing its “recommended” designation for Surface products." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-surface/microsoft-surface-devices-fail-on-reliability-consumer-reports-idUSKBN1AQ1EP https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-surface/microso...
      - JBiserkov 9y ago
        That report is based on faulty data and has been discredited.
      - 9y ago
kin 9y ago
Is this really how they're introducing this product? Through a blog post?
- bllguo 9y ago
  Don't think so, that's just what OP chose to link. Their store page has more detail: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book-2/overview https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book...
miguelrochefort 9y ago
Their Precision mouse charges via Micro-USB...
albertgoeswoof 9y ago
Whenever I fly on business with my macbook/lenovo I am super jealous of surface users, because they can use their machine during take off, as it's classified as a tablet when folded over. Seems minor but it's annoying when you're stuck looking at some crappy tv show or movie for an hour on each flight.
- usaphp 9y ago
  But can you do any real work in a folded mode, unless you are a graphic designer or something.
  - anotherproj 9y ago
    define "real work"
  - dawnerd 9y ago
    Can watch movies/tv, browse the web (especially on the new planes with gate to gate wifi).
- dm319 9y ago
  Maybe treat yourself to the Thinkpad X1 Yoga gen 2?
  - singularity2001 9y ago
    for some reaon Chinese spyware tastes appaling
    - MikusR 9y ago
      It might, but do you have proof that it has it?
      - Pharaoh2 9y ago
        https://boingboing.net/2017/09/07/depraved-indifference-or-malic.html https://boingboing.net/2017/09/07/depraved-indifference-or-m...
TYPE_FASTER 9y ago
Having recently used a XPS 13, original Surface Book, Surface laptop, Surface Pro, and Lenovo T560, the Surface laptop is the clear winner for me. Definitely worth a look if you're looking for good Windows hardware, and don't need the discrete graphics capability of the Surface Book.
- cleandreams 9y ago
  Curious. Why? I have a Surface Book and will be upgrading in a few months.
  - chokolad 9y ago
    If you don't need tablet capability and power of Surface Book GPU, Surface Laptop is a very nice machine. It's similar to regular ultralights (something like MacBook maybe) rather than higher end Surface Books and MacBook Pros.
  - TYPE_FASTER 9y ago
    I prefer the smaller form factor and lighter weight of the laptop. I realized I never undocked the screen on the Surface Book, which might be different for other users. I don't need a GPU for what I do. I never used the pen, which doesn't come with the laptop. One downside to the laptop is it only comes with a single USB-C port, so you'll probably need a hub.
- jozzz 9y ago
  Is this for software development (assuming yes since we're on HN)? I'm currently in the process of making this choice. Looking at Lenovo T470p/Dell XPS 13/15. If I'm doing linux development is it worth even thinking about the surface laptop?
  - TYPE_FASTER 9y ago
    Yes, using Visual Studio 2017. I haven't tried a Surface device with Linux yet.
  - 9y ago
usaphp 9y ago
I wonder how accurate their battery life claims are, I highly doubt 17 hours of battery life with a nvidia Getz 1060 video card, I would love to be proved wrong thought.
- slg 9y ago
  It says 17 hours of video playback. I am guessing that video playback is using the integrated graphics in the tablet portion while the 1060 in the base is powered down.
- harrygeez 9y ago
  Microsoft measures their battery life by movie playback duration, which may or may not reflect a realistic use case.
shams93 9y ago
Yeah ultimately the os itself has it's limitations, I get more done on a Thinkpad 420 I picked up refurbed for $300 with Ubuntu instead of windows 10 pro. I can run systemd daemons on Ubuntu but trying to run services like postgresql on windows subsystem for Linux is painful with no daemon support it's like a crippled Linux.
- kanishkdudeja 9y ago
  You can use Docker or Vagrant on Windows
- 3131s 9y ago
  Yep, I have no problems with the 600$ Asus I bought 3 years ago. I would literally quit programming and find something new if I had to use MacOS or Windows -- totally uninterested in developing on platforms that could fall out from under me at any time, whether by ceasing to exist or through some legal BS.
  - velobro 9y ago
    You sound like a reasonable person
    - 3131s 9y ago
      Open source is a huge part of what makes programming appealing to me. I like to build things that will last, and that I own completely. I don't think that Microsoft or Apple have a positive influence on society and prefer not to support them. You can call that unreasonable all you want, but already my approach has paid huge dividends as far as picking technologies that have staying power and are continually gaining traction.
- wvenable 9y ago
  https://www.postgresql.org/download/windows/ https://www.postgresql.org/download/windows/
jarym 9y ago
Mac user since 2002 and using windows was always a less-than-satisfying experience. Now if the Surface had 32Gb of RAM then I'd be all in but it seems like Microsoft are being restricted by Intel's incompetence as much as Apple are on this front.
Spinfusor 9y ago
I hope the hinge is much tighter than on the old models (the display shook waaaaay too much).
singularity2001 9y ago
pre-order "not avilable"; that's foolish, MS
intended 9y ago
Wait what, they just announced the successor to the SB without any fanfare? Did I miss something about today? I didn't even know they were doing a SB refresh. What?
tcfunk 9y ago
I suppose the tech is too new for this product launch...but I would have loved to see 1070 max-q in this version of the surface book, especially at this price point. edit: I checked the price.
- SomeHacker44 9y ago
  My Alienware 13R3 has a 1060 GPU which runs at 90W. So, I imagine their 15" 95W laptop is running the 1060 using "Max-Q" to keep it well under 90W in power draw as well as thermal dissipation in such a small form factor.
neals 9y ago
Nice to see Microsoft bringing new consumer hardware to market. In the meantime, all Surface Pro 4 i7 devices become unusable due to graphic issues. The brilliant concepts by Microsoft are so amateuristically executed. I learned my lesson and am staying away. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/surfpro4-surfdrivers/surface-pro-4-screen-flickering-shacking/570165cb-50a0-4d71-bcb1-310ddd869d1d https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/surfpro4-s...
- pier25 9y ago
  Woah 71 pages...
- 0xffff2 9y ago
  Certainly not all of them... I have used my SP4 as my only PC for several months at a time, doing everything from coding and CAD at work to gaming and Netflix at home and I've experienced no issues.
  - neals 9y ago
    Recently?
0xbear 9y ago
First surface book was a disaster. I took mine back after a week. Did they fix the BSODs by now? And can it run Linux?
mtgx 9y ago
Does Microsoft even encrypt its own laptops by default these days? Or are they still nickle and diming users for the use of Bitlocker encryption?
- Viper007Bond 9y ago
  It comes with Pro, which has Bitlocker.
desireco42 9y ago
This is the most beautiful laptop/computer I've seen in a long time, it hits all the right buttons for me: it has great battery life, it comes in 15" and you can detach for tablet mode it has a pen (so I don't have to have ipad pro + laptop) touchscreen is just better, I've seen people use it, and it is better then my macbook air it has nvidia 1060 so I can play games I need to figure out how to work on this, as it has Windows and I am game. I need some really good terminal and graphical vim and I will be golden.
- michaeljchou 9y ago
  Tips for terminal on Windows 10: https://goreliu.github.io/wsl-terminal/ https://goreliu.github.io/wsl-terminal/
stewbrew 9y ago
Could somebody please tell me: How do they bend this thing so that the keyboard and the display face upwards as shown with the device on the right?
- potshot 9y ago
  The screen is detachable. It can attach to the keyboard facing either direction.
shurcooL 9y ago
I’m glad to see some competition, my hope is that this pushes Apple to improve the next MBP more.
jrs95 9y ago
This is just an insane device to me. Aspects of it are performance oriented, but the same or better performance can be had for 1/3-1/2 the cost in other laptops. Personally I'd rather just have an iPad that's good at being a tablet and a laptop that's good at being a mobile workstation. And that costs about the same amount of money.
Zigurd 9y ago
How many times have you read "...the power of a desktop, the versatility of a tablet, and the freedom of a light and thin laptop..." and found the reality is that it isn't as good as the best of breed of any of these, and more expensive. It may be a really nice laptop. Isn't that enough? And that's even before getting into how difficult it is to wash all the too-small touch targets and other gotchas out of a mouse-first UI.
olympus 9y ago
Looking at the specs, (linked in another comment), it appears that the USB-C port doesn't support Thunderbolt 3. Seriously, Microsoft, you can't charge this much for a laptop without TB3. I know that TB started as an Apple standard, but you're not killing this port like you did with Firewire. Your case of NIMBY has cost you my sale. I'll wait and get the next premium Lenovo/HP/ASUS/etc Ultrabook with 8th gen i7 AND TB3.
- plttn 9y ago
  Not enough PCIe lanes in Surface Connect. Since the CPU is in the clipboard, but the USB-C port is in the keyboard, there would have to be available PCIe lanes on the Surface Connect port, but it's taken up by the GPU lanes.
  - aq3cn 9y ago
    I guess we may see an upgrade in Surface Connect by next generation. Any chance, TB3 could be included in clipboard itself?
- jrs95 9y ago
  Honestly, TB3 kind of makes one of the main features of the Surface Book irrelevant in my opinion. If you can just connect a dGPU at your desk, do you really need one in the base of the laptop? Is that worth the related driver issues and the extra cost of a Surface Book?
- maaaats 9y ago
  I have a MacBook Pro and have never used thunderbolt. Why is it a big deal / what do you use it for?
  - jclardy 9y ago
    I use it for external GPU and an external TB2 SSD raid array. The thing is, these laptops are starting at $2500, ignoring the base model integrated GPU that is just there for making the starting price attractive (although that one could benefit the most from an eGPU...) It sounds like a technical reason for it being excluded (lacking extra PCI-E lanes) but it is just disappointing on a laptop in the $2.5k-$3k range in late 2017.
ChuckMcM 9y ago
Talking about the hardware this is a pretty interesting offering. The got the new 8th gen i7 into the display half (which they failed to do for the new Surface Pro which seems like an odd omission). Seems like a solid follow up to the original Surface Book (which I have). In my experience my Surface book is most usable in 'studio mode' (their name for folded back over the keyboard with the display up) and an external keyboard. That gives the maximum graphics power and its possibly to use the stylus to draw on it easily. As a laptop the weight balance is off enough that there are a lot of orientations that just don't work (the system falls back on the display. As a development machine with the dock to add extra displays I've found it both responsive and powerful enough. On the road my 12" Surface Book is a bit too little screen area and so I use my 15" macbook pro 2015 for that. The 15" version of the surface book 2 would be a win there but at 4.2lbs my shoulder will complain. (I briefly had the 4+ pound Sony VAIO and it was painful enough that I just never took it on trips as powerful as it was.) At the end of the day I think Microsoft is doing a good job of exploring the mobile development workstation space in a way that is currently out pacing Apple. Microsoft is still behind (as far as I am concerned) in software but with things like WSL they are plugging the gaps which made them unusable for my purposes.
- singingboyo 9y ago
  Out of curiosity, what does your SB have the dedicated GPU in the keyboard? I haven't had any issues with my SB falling back on the display, (the keyboard is nice and heavy on mine) so I'm wondering if it's the graphics card or something else.
- michaeljchou 9y ago
  > They got the new 8th gen i7 into the display half (which they failed to do for the new Surface Pro which seems like an odd omission). 8th gen intel processors were not out when the new Surface Pro released. And they had to release it because it was long overdue since SP4. > On the road my 12" Surface Book is a bit too little screen area and so I use my 15" macbook pro 2015 for that. The 15" version of the surface book 2 would be a win there but at 4.2lbs my shoulder will complain. (I briefly had the 4+ pound Sony VAIO and it was painful enough that I just never took it on trips as powerful as it was.) 15"MBP: 4.49lb(2015), 4.02lb(2016&2017)
pierrebeaucamp 9y ago
Having the 'original' Surface Book, I would love to just upgrade my base (keyboard and ports) and keep my current screen (CPU, RAM, Antennas). I don't see why they can't sell screens and bases separately. This would be a huge plus if I could upgrade different parts of my laptop.
deleted 9y ago
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nailer 9y ago
I've owned and used a SB1 for nearly 2 years. Quick summary: Pros: - Longest battery life I've ever had in a laptop - bottom of the device is entirely battery (or maybe a GPU if you picked that one) and that's comparing it to a Haswell MBA. - Excellent (huge) trackpad - Studio mode is great for life drawing classes - Face unlock just works on desktop mode - Windows 10 is a nice modern OS (visually) and WSL /Powershell (if you want to learn it) are excellent. - Surface Dock cable is awesome - a single magnetic charger / display / docking cable. Cons: - As a tablet it's too heavy. - As a tablet face unlock doesn't work on tablet-type angles - Silly Windows 10 apps. Like Instagram, which has a notification entitled 'Instagram', the contents of which are 'Instagram'. - No international support - take the device overseas and need help and you're dealing with 'Old Bad Ballmer' Microsoft, who will send you back and forth between eg US and UK for years without fixing your hardware. I'd buy an SB again, but I'd also look at the Surface Laptop (and maybe Surface Pro if someone I trust says you can type on that keyboard).
futhey 9y ago
Excited to see a VR-ready notebook that doesn't look like garbage (higher-end configuration). Kind of overpriced, but, as a non-gamer, it's been painful to "downgrade" to any of the clunky boxes that pass for gaming desktops (100% personal opinion). Has been a seriously empty niche.
krylon 9y ago
$ 99.99 for the ____ing pen? I get that the Surface Book is supposed to be a high-end device, but that is ... far out. Still, as much as I dislike most of their software, I have to admit Microsoft knows how to build some neat hardware. If only it weren't so pricey...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- FireBeyond 9y ago
  Guessing they're just playing "follow the leader" with the Apple Pencil... https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0C2AM/A/apple-pencil-for-ipad-pro https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0C2AM/A/apple-pencil-fo...
Fwirt 9y ago
After reading through the product announcement I had to chuckle a bit... If you'll pardon the shameless plug, I just purchased a used Lenovo X230 Tablet (ThinkPad) a couple weeks ago and my bet is that for the average HN reader use case it scratches all the same itches as the Surface Book. Granted it's bulkier and slower, but it's about $2300 cheaper. On the other hand it's easily repaired and upgraded, and has an easily swapped battery, so you can bring a couple spares along on a trip. The Surface Book obviously targets the "creative" market, but as long as you spend most of your time in a terminal, an editor, or a web browser, and have an occasional need for a pen and touch screen, then the old Lenovo ThinkPad tablets are awesome.
- kbutler 9y ago
  1366x768 itches pretty badly
  - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
    Especially in a 12" screen, I've been using an X240 for a couple of days and it feels old.
- cube2222 9y ago
  If I read correctly that's a 3rd gen CPU. This will be really inferior in terms of virtualization. For the 2300$ more, you get a better and fully-featured CPU, GPU, a great screen (My eyes hurt at 1920x1080 already), great battery life, a lightweight tablet, great touchpad. I think the sentence "my bet is that for the average HN reader use case it scratches all the same itches as the Surface Book" isn't that true in practice. I usually think it's good to make no compromises on my main development machine. It just boosts productivity and fun in the end.
biktor_gj 9y ago
I can't even count the times they say Macbook Pro... Can't they just let the product shine by itself instead of trying to make the competition look bad? Do they really need to get that low? Don't get me wrong, I dislike 99% of apple products, but it makes the entire ad just awful...
brailsafe 9y ago
I went into a Microsoft store, sort of for a laugh, mostly to see if they did a good job with the surface book. My main takeaways were: 1) There is no bevel on the base which makes it hard to pick up unless you grab it my the screen. You can't get your fingers under it. I lost my grip and dropped it from about 1cm off the table. 2) The screen is awkward to use on it's own. It's huge. 3) It wasn't obvious to me how to take the screen off. When I did figure it out, if memory serves, I had to yank it off in an unpleasant way.
- lewisj489 9y ago
  You sound incredibly fat.
apisarek 9y ago
I understand that in Microsoft you often override the keyword "type" in Python. Just look 1:30 in the video.
Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
It has a USB-C port and an... SD card reader? Use that port for something useful! That aside, I wonder if I can put Linux on it.
roryisok 9y ago
The surface page completely fails to load on my windows phone. That didn't take long! Sat what you will about Microsoft, but their making-discontinued-stuff-not-work-anymore department is amazingly good at its job
garettmd 9y ago
Anyone notice that the pic of the surface book with the display rotated around (like you would if you were switching to tablet mode) doesn't actually follow how it would rotate in real life? The keyboard should be on the bottom, not the top...
- theodorejb 9y ago
  Actually that photo does match real life. Rather than opening more than 180 degrees, the screen can be popped off as a standalone tablet, then flipped around and reattached to the base.
- nekopa 9y ago
  I believe that you don't rotate the screen around while it's attached, but you pull it off, flip it around and reattach it...
wslh 9y ago
Microsoft Windows and their software is not ready for these new devices, that is the sad part of the story. One clear example is Microsoft Office not working in different DPI displays. For example if you have a ~4k display in your notebook and you plug two 1080p monitors the fonts will be blurred. And we are talking about the Microsoft core product.
Divver 9y ago
Having worked at Microsoft and now at Apple (and a startup before these two), in my opinion The overall distribution of proficiencies and talent across engineering teams (both hardware and software teams) in my opinion were about equal across the three. (One major difference though is finding engineers who don’t mind doing nitty gritty dirty work like Dev ops and/or setting up test automation stuff is harder in big companies because somehow many of the senior engineers at big companies feel that if the setup isn’t given to them by someone else, it’s not their job to set it up for their team, so they just use what’s available/existing even if it’s insufficent for good quality. (Not trying to bash on any oldies on my existing or previous teams of course there were few exceptions) At startups though engineers don’t have this “that’s below me” Attitude and will put in the time to set up automation if it makes the team more agile. In fact setting up developer automation was one of the first things I set up for my team before getting to my feature development tasks and team has acknowledged it made huge difference in the overall team agility and reduction in regressions found by the QA folks every time code was checked in ) Anyway this made me realize the importance of good marketing which Microsoft lacked a lot imo and also engineering leadership product vision Since generally I’ve noticed you’ll get about the same distribution of engineering talent And what really makes the difference are a good marketing team and good engineering management team who believes in the importance of code quality (ensuring things like checkstyle and findbugs are enabled as required to pass for check in and having required code review approvals for check in) and automation in tests (ensuring some set of unit, integration, and functional tests are run to be passed before check in), and automation in deployment.
jochung 9y ago
There are constant comparisons to the macbook pro here, but Windows will always be a boner killer. Is there a decent Linux desktop that copies macOS' design sensibilities properly yet?
rado 9y ago
GTX 1050 in a 13” model. Apple, please copy this feature...
Roritharr 9y ago
No Thunderbolt 3. Still won't buy but would want to. Throw in 32GB RAM next time please, by then i'll need it.
terrabytes 9y ago
I have a Surface Book and absolutely love it. The trackpad is something I've had problems with on my previous Windows laptops. The Surface book has a fantastic trackpad, on par with Macbooks.
dingo_bat 9y ago
It's infuriating that they don't include the pen at these prices.

374 points by AlexeyBrin 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Why does every single high end laptop need to look exactly like a macbook? I want anybody who doesn't believe me to google up a picture of one next to the other.

fredley 9y ago
This... looks nothing like a macbook. It's got a matte metallic frame and a black bezel, but that's about where the similarities end as far as it looks to me.
- needz 9y ago
  Are we looking at the same thing? It looks incredibly similar to Macbooks.
  - fredley 9y ago
    Aside from the colours/finish, what's the same? Looking at the macbook in front of me and the image here they're totally different: the hinge, the keyboard, the vents, the ports, no touch bar, no speaker grills etc. Everything else is just laptop fundamental design, e.g. it is primarily composed of two slabs and a hinge, with a keyboard and trackpad in ergonomically optimal places.
  - freeone3000 9y ago
    No, macbooks close flat. This closes into a wedge, with the rear hinge approximately one-half-inch higher than the front when closed, with a gap between screen and keyboard. In addition, macbooks are bezel-filled and sleek, where this emphasizes straight edges. Horizontal corners are rounded, but vertical edges are square. Keyboard is also very square, instead of the rounded rects favored by macbooks. About the only thing that's the same is that they're both aluminum white laptops.
waegawegawe 9y ago
I think what you mean is, "why do so many high end laptops have thin, metal, unibody chassis?" But, when you ask the question that way, it kind of answers itself. People like metal, because it feels more high end than plastic. Unibody chassis don't need to be fastened together, which is good for manufacturing and looks. People like thin laptops because they are more portable than thick ones.
- freeone3000 9y ago
  It's technically not unibody, the keyboard (and its GPU) detach.
  - linarism 9y ago
    You may also find that the unibody MB has the screen portion housed in a different aluminum block than the body. Semantics are dumb.
- jrs95 9y ago
  Unibody helps make it thinner, too. A traditional laptop design had to have both structrual components and outer casing -- unibody designs do both and save space
bhauer 9y ago
It's magnesium and not aluminum. Its keyboard is color-matched to the metal. Its screen detaches. Its trackpad doesn't take up the entire space between the keyboard and the edge. Its chamfered edge is the full width of the trackpad so you don't hurt your wrist. It has the Surface Book's signature "fulcrum hinge" and the associated gap. Its display has air vents. Both the base and the display are the same thickness. But it's a metal laptop that comes in two sizes, so it looks like a MacBook to some people.

GEBBL 9y ago

Is anyone excited?

acqq 9y ago
Seeing in the article: > Surface Book 2 brings you a full array of ports, including USB-A, USB-C, and full-size SD card reader which makes it easy to connect other devices, accessories and memory cards without the need for a bag full of dongles. I find there is a good reason to like it, compared to this: https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c
rhexs 9y ago
Well, I bought the Surface Book 1 and returned it after a month of it barely working. So no, not really.
- kanishkdudeja 9y ago
  What issues did you face?
  - rhexs 9y ago
    A better question is, what issues didn't I face? Unlocking randomly wouldn't work, the display driver was crashing when using firefox/chrome consistently, battery life was abysmal, device would bluescreen, etc. From what I understand they finally patched most of these out after more than a year. No need to go on that roller coaster again.
    - kanishkdudeja 9y ago
      Really strange how big corporations put out devices before testing them out properly!
    - bobjordan 9y ago
      Yes, from my experience all that eventually got fixed. For the first six months that I owned my surface book, I continued to use my rMBP. But by now, I really do enjoy using it as my primary computer. What I like most about it is using it with two external monitors connected to the expansion dock. I flip the screen around on my suface book and then place it in the middle between the external monitors and hook up a wireless keyboard and mouse. This triple monitor mode is awesome and perfect for doing some sketching or use my programming IDE on the surface book while having the other two monitors available for productivity. I replicated this setup at the office and home and now I can't imagine going back.

reynoldsbd 9y ago

Finally, USB-C in a Surface product!

ocdtrekkie 9y ago
I'm actually really glad they have up until now left USB-C out. We're at a point in USB-C's life I'd consider it an anti-feature, and the Surface Book 2's no exception: This particular USB-C port is really only useful for adding a second display. It's more or less fine as an extra port, but anywhere it takes away a Type A port, or even the Mini-DP it replaced is a little sad. Marco Arment posted this a couple days ago, and it sums up... some of... the issues with USB-C: https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c
- chx 9y ago
  We had a discussion stemming from that article at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15473777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15473777 My take (it's not positive): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15474131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15474131 It certainly has its quirks and limitations.
- deno 9y ago
  For a mobile device one big plus of USB-C is USB-PD and the ecosystem of fast chargers and power banks it brings/will-bring. You can also use one charger for both your phone and laptop, which is useful even if you can’t charge both at the same time. Ignore everything else and it’s a nice upgrade just for this.
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    My Surface Pro charger (the same one that comes with the Surface Book IIRC) has a USB port for charging phones as well, and unlike a USB-C charger, charges both at the same time. While I lament non-standard implementations, much like Apple's old MagSafe adapter and the Surface connector, sometimes the non-standard version is vastly superior.

bhouston 9y ago

Nvidia 1060 and 1050? Nice. I assume it is 4GB and 6GB respectively? This really makes it incredibly powerful. I run with dual 4k monitors off of a Dell XPS with an Nvidia 1050 with 4GB. Feels like a desktop. (Does this also support 32GB of RAM? That is required for development these days with multiple containers running locally. My Dell XPS 15" supports 32GB of RAM.)

rayiner 9y ago
It appears to max out at 16GB for the same reason as the rMBP (current Intel processors are limited to 16GB of LPDDR3).
- sitkack 9y ago
  Many Lenovo Thinkpads and HP ZBooks, the mobile workstation lines, support 64GB of ECC memory when paired with a Xeon. And 64GB of non-ECC when using a Core processor. Hell even the "ultrabook" workstation from HP, the ZBook Studio supports 32GB of ram [0]. One has to trade capacity for speed. 16GB is such a wall now, it makes me think Intel crippled their latest chips because they are too good. [0] http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/getpdf.aspx/c04832209.pdf?ver=11 http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/getpdf.aspx/c04832209.pdf?ver=1...
  - masklinn 9y ago
    > Many Lenovo Thinkpads and HP ZBooks, the mobile workstation lines The SB is not a workstation. It uses 15W U CPUs… > One has to trade capacity for speed. DDR4 trades battery for capacity, that's why "ultrabooks" concerned about the balance of weight and battery life are limited to 16GB: intel does not support lpddr4.
    - zeusk 9y ago
      They use upTDP (20w~24w). Also, you'd be surprised. Even while gaming, my current surface pro maintains 3.1 GHz and reaches 4.1 on short bursts. Look around the web, if you can keep the surface cool enough, they never PL (power limit) throttle unlike most other Intel -U based devices.

kanishkdudeja 9y ago

The i5 variant comes with just 8 GB RAM. Would have considered if they had given an option for 16 GB RAM. Being a developer, 8 GB seems tight these days! 15-inch 16 GB variant comes with i7 but the price is a little too steep (starts from 2500 USD)

bpicolo 9y ago
Where do you see that the i5 doesn't support 16GB? The specs list on microsoft.com seem to just say "i5 or i7, 8GB or 16GB RAM"
- kanishkdudeja 9y ago
  Check the bottom section of this page: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book-2/overview https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book...
  - bpicolo 9y ago
    Might still be a configuration option, that just looks like base specs (but also, maybe not)? They're hardcore trying to push the i7 upsell on that page
TheCoreh 9y ago
To be fair, if you're developer, you'll probably also want an i7 (since a lot of compilation tasks are highly parallel and the extra cores will help a lot)
- kanishkdudeja 9y ago
  That's right. But the i7 15-inch line starts from 2500 USD. I think lots of developers won't be able to afford at that price point.
  - bpicolo 9y ago
    i7 13.5" starts at 1,999. Still pretty crazy that prices are turning the opposite direction lately.

pmontra 9y ago

A 15" non Apple laptop without numberpad, plus a 3:2 display: joy! I don't need a new laptop now but I hope other manufacturers will follow. No number pad means that the touchpad in centered with the screen and the keyboard so I wouldn't have to slide the laptop to the right to have the important keys and the touchpad in front of me. 3:2 * 5.33 = 16:10.66, so extra vertical space.

avenoir 9y ago

How's the track pad on these things? The track pad on the latest XPS is atrocious and at times unusable.

kanishkdudeja 9y ago
Can't agree more on this. I wish the fall creators update pushes out some kind of driver update for it.
cstejerean 9y ago
If it’s anything like the first surface book then it’s likely to be pretty bad. I had to carry a mouse with me at all times to be able to properly use the surface book. So far Apple laptops are the only one’s with a trackpad I can actually use all day and not miss having a separate mouse (for work not gaming obviously).
bhauer 9y ago
I find the trackpad on the original Surface Book to be good. As good as any MacBook I've used, but I'm not a Mac user, so I don't think I can speak to the more subtle differences. Most reviews of the original Surface Book concur that it's "nearly" as good as the MacBook's trackpads. Also remember that the display is a touch screen.
- lambda_lover 9y ago
  While I do love the Mac trackpad, the important part is the amazing gestures built into OS X- things like workspace switching and window management are far easier in OS X as a result. But maybe that makes a more dramatic difference for me because I've always disliked alt+tab.
xeromal 9y ago
I've had a SB1 since it was released and never had issues with the trackpad. Works just fine for me.

trothamel 9y ago

A bit of headline fail there: "Introducing Surface Book 2, the most powerful Surface Book ever" Out of the two of them so far?

Rhapso 9y ago
No it is a prophecy: The rest of them will be less powerful.
- matthew349hall 9y ago
  Haha yes
dandare 9y ago
Thank you Apple for introducing this meaningless phrase to humanity's discourse.
- rob74 9y ago
  They talk the Apple talk, but can they walk the Apple walk? ;)
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  It's not meaningless. There's two reasons. Improvements along a particular dimension aren't always a given. If they said "Introducing the Apple iPhone 8 Plus, the lightest iPhone ever" they'd be lying. You can't assume that a newer model of something is always going to be more powerful. Language isn't purely literal. Especially when there's a limited number of words to market to people. You can't write a 10 000 essay. So mentioning a detail isn't just to communicate the literal facts, it's to highlight details, point out significant details. So when someone says "it's the most X ever" they are saying that the improvements are significant enough to make them notable.
reboog711 9y ago
Technically, 3 of them because they had a mini-refresh of the "Surface Book with Performance Base" around 1 year after the initial release.

rayiner 9y ago

The pricing is brutal.[1] About $100-$300 more than the 15" Macbook Pro with the same amount of storage. The base model is particularly shameful, with only 8GB of RAM. The base MBP is 16GB for $100 less. You can't configure the RAM amount, so $2,900 is the cheapest 15" model with 16GB. [1] Or perhaps it's more that the configuration options are really inflexible, with every configuration having the highest-end CPU and GPU.

jaxondu 9y ago
With that price you get "twice as powerful as the latest MacBook Pro. ...up to 17 hours of video playback. That’s 70% more than the latest MacBook Pro."
- j4kp07 9y ago
  I'll believe those figure on battery life when someone independent confirms it.
- rayiner 9y ago
  The “twice as powerful” is almost certainly just about the GPU. The CPU is a U series part versus the HQ series part in the MBP.
  - rdslw 9y ago
    Industry secret: apple throttles those cpu to 20W.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      Source?
      - rdslw 9y ago
        LOL. This very discussion on HN. And dozens of results after googling with 'apple cpu macbook pro TDP'.

pg_is_a_butt 9y ago

Does is still feature the Intel Management Engine backdoor for government spying, even while powered off?

Jaqua 9y ago

Looks like a proper MacBook Pro replacement HW wise, but the OS is not one I would use for work.. =/ So attached to OSX for the past 6 years and cannot see me using a windows OS for work , but at home only for gaming. The new MacBook Pro has many flaws. Not sure how this compares in real use for it?

zeveb 9y ago
I imagine that it can run Linux, right — if not now, soon. I personally much prefer Linux to both macOS & Windows, although obviously tastes differ. I get a tiling WM with no cruft, I can completely control my UI, I can get work done quickly and easily.
- kanishkdudeja 9y ago
  The stylus and the touch might not work perfectly with Linux.
  - masklinn 9y ago
    On the SB1, IIRC the touch screen worked but the dGPU, bluetooth and camera did not, you needed a patched kernel for hardware buttons and wifi, and hibernation didn't work (and the hardware didn't properly support suspend to ram). Not sure about the "tablet" mode.
  - jjuel 9y ago
    If the parent is using a tiling WM I doubt they need the touch or the stylus much.
- jackielii 9y ago
  Same here. I can live without touch or stylus, just want a performance laptop with good screen (3:2 ratio) and keyboard.
  - artursapek 9y ago
    Thinkpad?

pbnjay 9y ago

Why do no pics show the USB-A side of the system clearly? It's like they only want to talk about USB-C. Also I can't tell if it does USB-C Power Delivery or not? Or would I still need a separate charger for this? Would be really nice to only carry one charger for phone and laptop...

Jaqua 9y ago
What phone charges with USB-C? From here: https://www.windowscentral.com/surface-book-2-tech-specs https://www.windowscentral.com/surface-book-2-tech-specs "Microsoft is still using its proprietary Surface Connect for power and the optional Surface Dock." aaah.. at the end: "Users can also recharge the Surface Book 2 with a USB Type-C charger as long as it is powerful enough. Devices can be charged from the Surface Book 2, such as a phone using USB Type-C."
- dangrossman 9y ago
  I have a Nexus 5X, my wife has a Nexus 6P, and my computer is a Dell XPS 13. We charge all three with a USB-C charger, which means less cords and adapters around the house and in the car.
- Slaul 9y ago
  My Nexus 6P charges with USB-C.
- ageitgey 9y ago
  USB-C is pretty standard on Android now. Most newer Android phones have moved to USB-C, including Samsung's S8 and Note 8. All of Google's own branded phones have used USB-C for a coupe of years now.
- xexers 9y ago
  It's good to see that Type-C is becoming the standard laptop charger on new laptops!
- igravious 9y ago
  currently different 210 handsets according to the GSM Arena database. https://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?chkUSBC=selected https://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?chkUSBC=selected

dandare 9y ago

How tall is the hinge when closed?

bhauer 9y ago
It looks the same as the original Surface Book, which puts it at approximately 1 inch.

andr 9y ago

Any experiences with dual booting in to Linux on the Surface Book? I can imagine some things, like detaching not working optimally, but does it work at all?

kanishkdudeja 9y ago
Check comment on the page by masklinn
AlphaWeaver 9y ago
Not a duel boot, but I regularly use the Windows Subsystem for Linux on my Surface Book for work and personal development, I've had no problems whatsoever. Works like a dream, and if you stick an X server on your computer, X applications pretty much just _work._ If you haven't yet, it's worth looking into.
sleibrock 9y ago
I've used Linux on a Surface 3 so I imagine it'll be a similar story for the Book: many things won't play as nice as they would under Windows (sleeping when closing it, WiFi), things like the touch screen might not play ball, and the graphics drivers might not work. Linux 4.9 aimed to make the Surface usable, but I haven't found a distro that played with the Wifi drivers nicely (would work for a few minutes, then would shut off, become unresponsive, and required a hard reboot to get working again). There is a Fedora Surface image that many suggest works really well on Surfaces, but I couldn't get it to boot. Now I just prefer using a Virtualbox image to do all my Linux stuff. It's easier to set up and requires far less rebooting.
Bedon292 9y ago
I am not sure how well it would work to even get Linux on it. I thought they had a fairly locked down boot loader. And no way there is a good driver for the screen release. On the other hand, I have never even contemplated dual booting it because WSL does everything I need Linux for. It is actually pretty good.
cube2222 9y ago
Try to use Windows Subsystem for Linux and Docker for Windows. They are both beautifully integrated and work like a charm.

avcdsuia 9y ago

Now I want a 3:2 MacBook Pro 15'', the display ratio that Mac notebook used to have(PowerBook G4). 3:2 is much more comfortable working with, enough vertical space for reading code and no sacrifice for horizontal space.

jackielii 9y ago
Thinkpad in 3:2 for me
leadingthenet 9y ago
I’d love this. 16:9(10) is probably the worst aspect ratio ever to be made standard on laptops. How the hell did people think it was a good idea?
- masklinn 9y ago
  > 16:9(10) 16:9 can't be equated to and is significantly worse than 16:10, which is worse than 3:2, which is worse than 4:3 (which is coming back on tablets). There were even 5:4 displays at one point (early days of desktop LCD, I still have my 1280x1024 19" ViewSonic VP191b). Assuming 15" diagonals on all of them: * a 16:9 display is 96 sq in and 7.4" high * a 16:10 display is 101 sq in and 7.9" high * a 3:2 display is 104 sq in and 8.3" high * a 4:3 display is 108 sq in and 9" high * a 5:4 display is 110 sq in and 9.4" high As you can see, 16:10 -> 16:9 is actually the largest loss in surface area and second-largest loss of height (largest being 4:3 -> 3:2). However if you're watching a movie, the 16:9 has 100% coverage for 16:9 and 75% coverage for Cinemascope, every other format gets lower in both relative and absolute coverage, down to 70% (77 sq in) and 53% (58 sq in) for a 5:4. > How the hell did people think it was a good idea? Black bars on movies, better view angles in FPS, and cheaper.

sitkack 9y ago

Still stuck with only 16GB of ram, https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book-2/tech-specs https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book...

masklinn 9y ago
Unsurprisingly, any laptop which cares about battery life will remain limited to 16GB until Intel supports LPDDR4.

wallabie 9y ago

Interesting. Does anyone here actually use the dial, or know someone that does? Otherwise, it doesn't look like a compelling upgrade to my Surface Book (1) though. Even though I paid an arm a leg for it, I've grown to love it over time. Glad they are providing both 13" and 15" options though.

kanishkdudeja 9y ago
Are you comfortable with the touchpad of your Surface Book 1?
- AlphaWeaver 9y ago
  Not the OP, but I have a SB1 and the touchpad has had no problems. Works very well, and is natural for me to use.
- wallabie 9y ago
  The one on my MBP 2014 is definitely superior, but I don't mind it. Gets the job done, and I found it precise enough to work on corporate presentations, a place where neurotic detail reigns.

prions 9y ago

Hopefully they improved the wobbly hinge/upper half and the sharp scratchy corners.

inetknght 9y ago

Can I wipe out Windows and put a better OS on it?

kanishkdudeja 9y ago
You could try out Hackintosh/Linux but not sure how compatible would it be in the beginning. Issues will need to be tinkered with and fixed.
- dm319 9y ago
  Yes, and there isn't a great history with getting surface's to work well with linux - though I think things are much better now. Still, probably much easier than getting linux on it than a macbook pro.
zerr 9y ago
I'm more interested if one can put better Windows (Win7) on it.
- inetknght 9y ago
  I also count that as a better OS
- overgryphon 9y ago
  You could, but not without sacrificing many of the features that make the Surface Book unique. The pen support in Windows 7 is significantly worse, and face authentication wouldn't work. Windows 7 isn't very usable on a tablet. To use the GPU when you reattached the tablet you'd likely have to reboot the machine, also a much slower operation on Windows 7. If you don't want the above features, you could get a machine that runs Windows 7 well with good hardware specs for less money.

kanishkdudeja 9y ago

I hope they decrease bezels and make it more sexy, like the Dell XPS, in future versions.

bostand 9y ago
Please don't. It's a tablet, it needs some bezels.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  In particular as Windows 10 in tablet mode makes use of gestures that involve swiping in from outside the screen edge.

skywhopper 9y ago

This is a good example of how Microsoft often does marketing poorly. The text reads like a script for an in-person product launch. On the page it doesn't even make sense "When you think about Microsoft and you hear our mission – to empower every person and every organization on the planet to achieve more – it’s powerful." What? And then after all of that, you click through to the store and there's no pricing information whatsoever and no pre-order date on the store page (there is a date buried in all the text in the announcement), just an unfriendly "Not available" broken button... no price, no date, and I don't even remember what was supposed to be interesting about the thing. Something about having more pixels than a Mac. Whatever interest I had in the product evaporated a long time ago, but the lack of concrete info on price makes me forget about it entirely. Edited to add: Oh cool, I just went back to the page and noticed the "Microsoft Band", a product that was officially discontinued over a year ago, is prominently featured in the navigation bar across the top of the page. Good work, team!

masklinn 9y ago
Yeah it's really frustrating. * this page is an ad copy with very little of interest * the store page (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/d/surface-book-2/8MCPZJJCC98C/2LCR?icid=HP_Hero1_SurfaceBook2_101717_en-us https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/d/surface-book-2/8MCPZ...) has no date, no price and only hints at specs (you can pick a model but have no idea that e.g. the 13.5" i5 is iGP and the i7 is dGPU) * https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book-2/tech-specs https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book... has the actual stuff you want, with a detailed specs breakdown and the price of every configuration although even there are incoherences (Tech Specs states the 15" has 16GB RAM, but "Configure" lists an 8GB 15" configuration)
- skywhopper 9y ago
  Oh, cool, thanks for pointing me to the actual prices.
- Sujan 9y ago
  Now I wish I hadn't found the prices...

yoz-y 9y ago

What is the main reason behind the 17 hour battery life, mainly in comparison to a MacBook Pro? Does this come mainly from the battery size, power management in the OS or components?

skywhopper 9y ago
Given that the only battery life number they quote is for video playback (with no specs about the video format, bitrate, resolution, full-screen state, etc), I suspect that number just happens to be extra high when you choose the optimal video in the optimal format and play it full screen (so the OS can stop spending cycles on UI rendering). Note that Apple specifies 10 hours of "iTunes Movie playback" for the 15-inch Macbook Pro. It's probably possible to improve on that with some other format. Apple also gives a quote for "wireless web" usage (the same 10 hours). The 15-inch Surface Book 2 is also significantly thicker and about 5% heavier than a 15-inch Macbook Pro. So I'm sure more battery plays a role as well.
- cube2222 9y ago
  They advertised 13.5 video playback for the sp2017 and I'm getting 7-10 real world usage. But people have said to actually use their sb's for 13 hours, so it'll probably be 11-16 hours of real world usage.
vladimirralev 9y ago
They use core i7-8650U which is a 15W while the MBP uses HQ model which is 47W. And the low power idle mode difference is even larger 5W vs 20, not entirely sure about the 20.

PascLeRasc 9y ago

I can't stand when companies say the latest version of a product is "the most powerful one ever". Why would that ever not be the case?

mrkstu 9y ago
Mac Minis
zcoyle 9y ago
Even worse, they have both "most powerful ever" and "most powerful yet" in the copy. That reads really sloppy to to me.
petecox 9y ago
Power is something you want to use less of when constrained by battery life, surely!:)
- PascLeRasc 9y ago
  Efficient would be a better word to use then.

darklajid 9y ago

Looks not too bad, but I'm kinda interested in a Ryzen based laptop. And for that .. there's basically nothing yet (a Lenovo that is based on ~outdated~ tech just came out, a HP is announced and seems limited in its RAM options/potentially limited to single-channel and crippling the APU and a monster of a gaming laptop with desktop CPUs that is basically not usable if you ever want to carry it or use it without a power supply). I like the design, but the price is far too high - for me - and I'm neither a fan of Intel nor NVidia.

digi_owl 9y ago
I don't think there are laptop Ryzen variants out yet, thus the only "laptops" that exist use desktop Ryzen variants and are squarely aimed at gamers.
- darklajid 9y ago
  Lenovo A475[1] is using a mobile version afaict. Unfortunately .. it's based on Bristol. HP Envy x360 [2] seems to come out ~soon~ based on Raven, but the outlets/the community seems concerned that they'll limit those to single-channel. Which according to reviews in the past severely cripples the whole setup. That said, details aren't out so maybe HP does the right thing.. So potentially two options I'm aware of, one flawed and one potentially flawed. The only other one I found was a (gaming) monster from ASUS that is not a laptop in my world.. 1: HK link, sorry for that: https://www3.lenovo.com/hk/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-a-series/ThinkPad-A475/p/22TP2TAA475 https://www3.lenovo.com/hk/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-a-se... 2: German link, sorry for that: https://www.computerbase.de/2017-10/raven-ridge-hp-notebook-amd-ryzen-5-2500u/ https://www.computerbase.de/2017-10/raven-ridge-hp-notebook-...
  - digi_owl 9y ago
    That reminds me. I got kinda burned by AMDs laptop APUs a while back. This because the laptop i have seems to route the external screen through the iGPU, and AMD discontinued support for it quite early because it was a variant of their older GPU models. Thus i am stuck using their older driver pack, and ever so often i have to beat back Windows trying to auto-update the driver...

michaelmior 9y ago

> You won’t believe how much the colors and 3D images will pop in PowerPoint on these machines. That sounds like a horrible way to convince me I want this.

n0clu 9y ago
What? Thinking about default theme PowerPoint presentations doesn't get you salivating at the screen?

pier25 9y ago

I bought a SB last year and returned it after a couple of days since it was full of problems with the GPU and pen[1]. The machine was beautiful and both the keyboard and trackpad felt amazing, but even if my unit was defective the pen and tablet experience were poor compared to something like an iPad Pro. Also the display was really sharp in terms of resolution but suffered from an insane amount of ghosting while scrolling[2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XLVgpD-Dtc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XLVgpD-Dtc [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcOwjj2UWtw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcOwjj2UWtw

baldfat 9y ago
> the pen and tablet experience were poor compared to something like an iPad Pro Of course it would be. How would it be different if it is a Windows Machine and not a mobile device?
- pier25 9y ago
  Because half of it is actually a tablet with touch functionality. Windows prompts a touch keyboard and has other features, but the experience is really poor generally speaking.
  - baldfat 9y ago
    But it isn't a mobile device. A mobile device (Android or iOS) is just a one slice user experience. Also the pen isn't for gui interface, but it is for doing creative art.
    - pier25 9y ago
      > But it isn't a mobile device We can argue semantics if you wish, but the truth is the Surface line is being sold as 2 in 1 devices that wants to combine a tablet and a laptop. > Also the pen isn't for gui interface, but it is for doing creative art. Same thing on the iPad Pro or a Wacom MobileStudio which have much better stili than the Surface line. What is your point?
9y ago

staticelf 9y ago

So many negative comments just because it's Microsoft. If you don't like the OS, obviously this machine is not for you. Personally I think it looks nice, but I have a Surface Pro 2 that works just perfectly fine and I love it. The hardware on it is still good and I don't see any reason to upgrade.

AlphaWeaver 9y ago
I think that in itself speaks to the quality of the Surface device line... I myself have the first Surface Book, and I will likely upgrade to the 2 at some point, but not because my current device doesn't serve me well... I'm glad this thing is still working like new and I don't have huge urges to upgrade because I suddenly feel inferior, like some other tech companies try to pull... EDIT: Don't work for MS, just a happy Surface owner.
- staticelf 9y ago
  Yes, the machines they produce is very high quality and lasts a very long time. Longer than any other laptop I have used. Even if I have used it for quite some time it still feel fresh and performant.
  - ant512 9y ago
    Last I heard MS were having reliability problems with the Surface: "The breakage rate for Microsoft Corp’s Surface devices is significantly worse than for other manufacturers’ laptops and tablets, Consumer Reports said, adding that it was removing its “recommended” designation for Surface products." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-surface/microsoft-surface-devices-fail-on-reliability-consumer-reports-idUSKBN1AQ1EP https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-surface/microso...
    - JBiserkov 9y ago
      That report is based on faulty data and has been discredited.
    - 9y ago

kin 9y ago

Is this really how they're introducing this product? Through a blog post?

bllguo 9y ago
Don't think so, that's just what OP chose to link. Their store page has more detail: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book-2/overview https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book...

miguelrochefort 9y ago

Their Precision mouse charges via Micro-USB...

albertgoeswoof 9y ago

Whenever I fly on business with my macbook/lenovo I am super jealous of surface users, because they can use their machine during take off, as it's classified as a tablet when folded over. Seems minor but it's annoying when you're stuck looking at some crappy tv show or movie for an hour on each flight.

usaphp 9y ago
But can you do any real work in a folded mode, unless you are a graphic designer or something.
- anotherproj 9y ago
  define "real work"
- dawnerd 9y ago
  Can watch movies/tv, browse the web (especially on the new planes with gate to gate wifi).
dm319 9y ago
Maybe treat yourself to the Thinkpad X1 Yoga gen 2?
- singularity2001 9y ago
  for some reaon Chinese spyware tastes appaling
  - MikusR 9y ago
    It might, but do you have proof that it has it?
    - Pharaoh2 9y ago
      https://boingboing.net/2017/09/07/depraved-indifference-or-malic.html https://boingboing.net/2017/09/07/depraved-indifference-or-m...

TYPE_FASTER 9y ago

Having recently used a XPS 13, original Surface Book, Surface laptop, Surface Pro, and Lenovo T560, the Surface laptop is the clear winner for me. Definitely worth a look if you're looking for good Windows hardware, and don't need the discrete graphics capability of the Surface Book.

cleandreams 9y ago
Curious. Why? I have a Surface Book and will be upgrading in a few months.
- chokolad 9y ago
  If you don't need tablet capability and power of Surface Book GPU, Surface Laptop is a very nice machine. It's similar to regular ultralights (something like MacBook maybe) rather than higher end Surface Books and MacBook Pros.
- TYPE_FASTER 9y ago
  I prefer the smaller form factor and lighter weight of the laptop. I realized I never undocked the screen on the Surface Book, which might be different for other users. I don't need a GPU for what I do. I never used the pen, which doesn't come with the laptop. One downside to the laptop is it only comes with a single USB-C port, so you'll probably need a hub.
jozzz 9y ago
Is this for software development (assuming yes since we're on HN)? I'm currently in the process of making this choice. Looking at Lenovo T470p/Dell XPS 13/15. If I'm doing linux development is it worth even thinking about the surface laptop?
- TYPE_FASTER 9y ago
  Yes, using Visual Studio 2017. I haven't tried a Surface device with Linux yet.
- 9y ago

usaphp 9y ago

I wonder how accurate their battery life claims are, I highly doubt 17 hours of battery life with a nvidia Getz 1060 video card, I would love to be proved wrong thought.

slg 9y ago
It says 17 hours of video playback. I am guessing that video playback is using the integrated graphics in the tablet portion while the 1060 in the base is powered down.
harrygeez 9y ago
Microsoft measures their battery life by movie playback duration, which may or may not reflect a realistic use case.

shams93 9y ago

Yeah ultimately the os itself has it's limitations, I get more done on a Thinkpad 420 I picked up refurbed for $300 with Ubuntu instead of windows 10 pro. I can run systemd daemons on Ubuntu but trying to run services like postgresql on windows subsystem for Linux is painful with no daemon support it's like a crippled Linux.

kanishkdudeja 9y ago
You can use Docker or Vagrant on Windows
3131s 9y ago
Yep, I have no problems with the 600$ Asus I bought 3 years ago. I would literally quit programming and find something new if I had to use MacOS or Windows -- totally uninterested in developing on platforms that could fall out from under me at any time, whether by ceasing to exist or through some legal BS.
- velobro 9y ago
  You sound like a reasonable person
  - 3131s 9y ago
    Open source is a huge part of what makes programming appealing to me. I like to build things that will last, and that I own completely. I don't think that Microsoft or Apple have a positive influence on society and prefer not to support them. You can call that unreasonable all you want, but already my approach has paid huge dividends as far as picking technologies that have staying power and are continually gaining traction.
wvenable 9y ago
https://www.postgresql.org/download/windows/ https://www.postgresql.org/download/windows/

jarym 9y ago

Mac user since 2002 and using windows was always a less-than-satisfying experience. Now if the Surface had 32Gb of RAM then I'd be all in but it seems like Microsoft are being restricted by Intel's incompetence as much as Apple are on this front.

Spinfusor 9y ago

I hope the hinge is much tighter than on the old models (the display shook waaaaay too much).

singularity2001 9y ago

pre-order "not avilable"; that's foolish, MS

intended 9y ago

Wait what, they just announced the successor to the SB without any fanfare? Did I miss something about today? I didn't even know they were doing a SB refresh. What?

tcfunk 9y ago

I suppose the tech is too new for this product launch...but I would have loved to see 1070 max-q in this version of the surface book, especially at this price point. edit: I checked the price.

SomeHacker44 9y ago
My Alienware 13R3 has a 1060 GPU which runs at 90W. So, I imagine their 15" 95W laptop is running the 1060 using "Max-Q" to keep it well under 90W in power draw as well as thermal dissipation in such a small form factor.

neals 9y ago

Nice to see Microsoft bringing new consumer hardware to market. In the meantime, all Surface Pro 4 i7 devices become unusable due to graphic issues. The brilliant concepts by Microsoft are so amateuristically executed. I learned my lesson and am staying away. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/surfpro4-surfdrivers/surface-pro-4-screen-flickering-shacking/570165cb-50a0-4d71-bcb1-310ddd869d1d https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/surfpro4-s...

pier25 9y ago
Woah 71 pages...
0xffff2 9y ago
Certainly not all of them... I have used my SP4 as my only PC for several months at a time, doing everything from coding and CAD at work to gaming and Netflix at home and I've experienced no issues.
- neals 9y ago
  Recently?

0xbear 9y ago

First surface book was a disaster. I took mine back after a week. Did they fix the BSODs by now? And can it run Linux?

mtgx 9y ago

Does Microsoft even encrypt its own laptops by default these days? Or are they still nickle and diming users for the use of Bitlocker encryption?

Viper007Bond 9y ago
It comes with Pro, which has Bitlocker.

desireco42 9y ago

This is the most beautiful laptop/computer I've seen in a long time, it hits all the right buttons for me: it has great battery life, it comes in 15" and you can detach for tablet mode it has a pen (so I don't have to have ipad pro + laptop) touchscreen is just better, I've seen people use it, and it is better then my macbook air it has nvidia 1060 so I can play games I need to figure out how to work on this, as it has Windows and I am game. I need some really good terminal and graphical vim and I will be golden.

michaeljchou 9y ago
Tips for terminal on Windows 10: https://goreliu.github.io/wsl-terminal/ https://goreliu.github.io/wsl-terminal/

stewbrew 9y ago

Could somebody please tell me: How do they bend this thing so that the keyboard and the display face upwards as shown with the device on the right?

potshot 9y ago
The screen is detachable. It can attach to the keyboard facing either direction.

shurcooL 9y ago

I’m glad to see some competition, my hope is that this pushes Apple to improve the next MBP more.

jrs95 9y ago

This is just an insane device to me. Aspects of it are performance oriented, but the same or better performance can be had for 1/3-1/2 the cost in other laptops. Personally I'd rather just have an iPad that's good at being a tablet and a laptop that's good at being a mobile workstation. And that costs about the same amount of money.

Zigurd 9y ago

How many times have you read "...the power of a desktop, the versatility of a tablet, and the freedom of a light and thin laptop..." and found the reality is that it isn't as good as the best of breed of any of these, and more expensive. It may be a really nice laptop. Isn't that enough? And that's even before getting into how difficult it is to wash all the too-small touch targets and other gotchas out of a mouse-first UI.

olympus 9y ago

Looking at the specs, (linked in another comment), it appears that the USB-C port doesn't support Thunderbolt 3. Seriously, Microsoft, you can't charge this much for a laptop without TB3. I know that TB started as an Apple standard, but you're not killing this port like you did with Firewire. Your case of NIMBY has cost you my sale. I'll wait and get the next premium Lenovo/HP/ASUS/etc Ultrabook with 8th gen i7 AND TB3.

plttn 9y ago
Not enough PCIe lanes in Surface Connect. Since the CPU is in the clipboard, but the USB-C port is in the keyboard, there would have to be available PCIe lanes on the Surface Connect port, but it's taken up by the GPU lanes.
- aq3cn 9y ago
  I guess we may see an upgrade in Surface Connect by next generation. Any chance, TB3 could be included in clipboard itself?
jrs95 9y ago
Honestly, TB3 kind of makes one of the main features of the Surface Book irrelevant in my opinion. If you can just connect a dGPU at your desk, do you really need one in the base of the laptop? Is that worth the related driver issues and the extra cost of a Surface Book?
maaaats 9y ago
I have a MacBook Pro and have never used thunderbolt. Why is it a big deal / what do you use it for?
- jclardy 9y ago
  I use it for external GPU and an external TB2 SSD raid array. The thing is, these laptops are starting at $2500, ignoring the base model integrated GPU that is just there for making the starting price attractive (although that one could benefit the most from an eGPU...) It sounds like a technical reason for it being excluded (lacking extra PCI-E lanes) but it is just disappointing on a laptop in the $2.5k-$3k range in late 2017.

ChuckMcM 9y ago

Talking about the hardware this is a pretty interesting offering. The got the new 8th gen i7 into the display half (which they failed to do for the new Surface Pro which seems like an odd omission). Seems like a solid follow up to the original Surface Book (which I have). In my experience my Surface book is most usable in 'studio mode' (their name for folded back over the keyboard with the display up) and an external keyboard. That gives the maximum graphics power and its possibly to use the stylus to draw on it easily. As a laptop the weight balance is off enough that there are a lot of orientations that just don't work (the system falls back on the display. As a development machine with the dock to add extra displays I've found it both responsive and powerful enough. On the road my 12" Surface Book is a bit too little screen area and so I use my 15" macbook pro 2015 for that. The 15" version of the surface book 2 would be a win there but at 4.2lbs my shoulder will complain. (I briefly had the 4+ pound Sony VAIO and it was painful enough that I just never took it on trips as powerful as it was.) At the end of the day I think Microsoft is doing a good job of exploring the mobile development workstation space in a way that is currently out pacing Apple. Microsoft is still behind (as far as I am concerned) in software but with things like WSL they are plugging the gaps which made them unusable for my purposes.

singingboyo 9y ago
Out of curiosity, what does your SB have the dedicated GPU in the keyboard? I haven't had any issues with my SB falling back on the display, (the keyboard is nice and heavy on mine) so I'm wondering if it's the graphics card or something else.
michaeljchou 9y ago
> They got the new 8th gen i7 into the display half (which they failed to do for the new Surface Pro which seems like an odd omission). 8th gen intel processors were not out when the new Surface Pro released. And they had to release it because it was long overdue since SP4. > On the road my 12" Surface Book is a bit too little screen area and so I use my 15" macbook pro 2015 for that. The 15" version of the surface book 2 would be a win there but at 4.2lbs my shoulder will complain. (I briefly had the 4+ pound Sony VAIO and it was painful enough that I just never took it on trips as powerful as it was.) 15"MBP: 4.49lb(2015), 4.02lb(2016&2017)

pierrebeaucamp 9y ago

Having the 'original' Surface Book, I would love to just upgrade my base (keyboard and ports) and keep my current screen (CPU, RAM, Antennas). I don't see why they can't sell screens and bases separately. This would be a huge plus if I could upgrade different parts of my laptop.

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nailer 9y ago

I've owned and used a SB1 for nearly 2 years. Quick summary: Pros: - Longest battery life I've ever had in a laptop - bottom of the device is entirely battery (or maybe a GPU if you picked that one) and that's comparing it to a Haswell MBA. - Excellent (huge) trackpad - Studio mode is great for life drawing classes - Face unlock just works on desktop mode - Windows 10 is a nice modern OS (visually) and WSL /Powershell (if you want to learn it) are excellent. - Surface Dock cable is awesome - a single magnetic charger / display / docking cable. Cons: - As a tablet it's too heavy. - As a tablet face unlock doesn't work on tablet-type angles - Silly Windows 10 apps. Like Instagram, which has a notification entitled 'Instagram', the contents of which are 'Instagram'. - No international support - take the device overseas and need help and you're dealing with 'Old Bad Ballmer' Microsoft, who will send you back and forth between eg US and UK for years without fixing your hardware. I'd buy an SB again, but I'd also look at the Surface Laptop (and maybe Surface Pro if someone I trust says you can type on that keyboard).

futhey 9y ago

Excited to see a VR-ready notebook that doesn't look like garbage (higher-end configuration). Kind of overpriced, but, as a non-gamer, it's been painful to "downgrade" to any of the clunky boxes that pass for gaming desktops (100% personal opinion). Has been a seriously empty niche.

krylon 9y ago

$ 99.99 for the ____ing pen? I get that the Surface Book is supposed to be a high-end device, but that is ... far out. Still, as much as I dislike most of their software, I have to admit Microsoft knows how to build some neat hardware. If only it weren't so pricey...

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FireBeyond 9y ago
Guessing they're just playing "follow the leader" with the Apple Pencil... https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0C2AM/A/apple-pencil-for-ipad-pro https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0C2AM/A/apple-pencil-fo...

Fwirt 9y ago

After reading through the product announcement I had to chuckle a bit... If you'll pardon the shameless plug, I just purchased a used Lenovo X230 Tablet (ThinkPad) a couple weeks ago and my bet is that for the average HN reader use case it scratches all the same itches as the Surface Book. Granted it's bulkier and slower, but it's about $2300 cheaper. On the other hand it's easily repaired and upgraded, and has an easily swapped battery, so you can bring a couple spares along on a trip. The Surface Book obviously targets the "creative" market, but as long as you spend most of your time in a terminal, an editor, or a web browser, and have an occasional need for a pen and touch screen, then the old Lenovo ThinkPad tablets are awesome.

kbutler 9y ago
1366x768 itches pretty badly
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  Especially in a 12" screen, I've been using an X240 for a couple of days and it feels old.
cube2222 9y ago
If I read correctly that's a 3rd gen CPU. This will be really inferior in terms of virtualization. For the 2300$ more, you get a better and fully-featured CPU, GPU, a great screen (My eyes hurt at 1920x1080 already), great battery life, a lightweight tablet, great touchpad. I think the sentence "my bet is that for the average HN reader use case it scratches all the same itches as the Surface Book" isn't that true in practice. I usually think it's good to make no compromises on my main development machine. It just boosts productivity and fun in the end.

biktor_gj 9y ago

I can't even count the times they say Macbook Pro... Can't they just let the product shine by itself instead of trying to make the competition look bad? Do they really need to get that low? Don't get me wrong, I dislike 99% of apple products, but it makes the entire ad just awful...

brailsafe 9y ago

I went into a Microsoft store, sort of for a laugh, mostly to see if they did a good job with the surface book. My main takeaways were: 1) There is no bevel on the base which makes it hard to pick up unless you grab it my the screen. You can't get your fingers under it. I lost my grip and dropped it from about 1cm off the table. 2) The screen is awkward to use on it's own. It's huge. 3) It wasn't obvious to me how to take the screen off. When I did figure it out, if memory serves, I had to yank it off in an unpleasant way.

lewisj489 9y ago
You sound incredibly fat.

apisarek 9y ago

I understand that in Microsoft you often override the keyword "type" in Python. Just look 1:30 in the video.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago

It has a USB-C port and an... SD card reader? Use that port for something useful! That aside, I wonder if I can put Linux on it.

roryisok 9y ago

The surface page completely fails to load on my windows phone. That didn't take long! Sat what you will about Microsoft, but their making-discontinued-stuff-not-work-anymore department is amazingly good at its job

garettmd 9y ago

Anyone notice that the pic of the surface book with the display rotated around (like you would if you were switching to tablet mode) doesn't actually follow how it would rotate in real life? The keyboard should be on the bottom, not the top...

theodorejb 9y ago
Actually that photo does match real life. Rather than opening more than 180 degrees, the screen can be popped off as a standalone tablet, then flipped around and reattached to the base.
nekopa 9y ago
I believe that you don't rotate the screen around while it's attached, but you pull it off, flip it around and reattach it...

wslh 9y ago

Microsoft Windows and their software is not ready for these new devices, that is the sad part of the story. One clear example is Microsoft Office not working in different DPI displays. For example if you have a ~4k display in your notebook and you plug two 1080p monitors the fonts will be blurred. And we are talking about the Microsoft core product.

Divver 9y ago

Having worked at Microsoft and now at Apple (and a startup before these two), in my opinion The overall distribution of proficiencies and talent across engineering teams (both hardware and software teams) in my opinion were about equal across the three. (One major difference though is finding engineers who don’t mind doing nitty gritty dirty work like Dev ops and/or setting up test automation stuff is harder in big companies because somehow many of the senior engineers at big companies feel that if the setup isn’t given to them by someone else, it’s not their job to set it up for their team, so they just use what’s available/existing even if it’s insufficent for good quality. (Not trying to bash on any oldies on my existing or previous teams of course there were few exceptions) At startups though engineers don’t have this “that’s below me” Attitude and will put in the time to set up automation if it makes the team more agile. In fact setting up developer automation was one of the first things I set up for my team before getting to my feature development tasks and team has acknowledged it made huge difference in the overall team agility and reduction in regressions found by the QA folks every time code was checked in ) Anyway this made me realize the importance of good marketing which Microsoft lacked a lot imo and also engineering leadership product vision Since generally I’ve noticed you’ll get about the same distribution of engineering talent And what really makes the difference are a good marketing team and good engineering management team who believes in the importance of code quality (ensuring things like checkstyle and findbugs are enabled as required to pass for check in and having required code review approvals for check in) and automation in tests (ensuring some set of unit, integration, and functional tests are run to be passed before check in), and automation in deployment.

jochung 9y ago

There are constant comparisons to the macbook pro here, but Windows will always be a boner killer. Is there a decent Linux desktop that copies macOS' design sensibilities properly yet?

rado 9y ago

GTX 1050 in a 13” model. Apple, please copy this feature...

Roritharr 9y ago

No Thunderbolt 3. Still won't buy but would want to. Throw in 32GB RAM next time please, by then i'll need it.

terrabytes 9y ago

I have a Surface Book and absolutely love it. The trackpad is something I've had problems with on my previous Windows laptops. The Surface book has a fantastic trackpad, on par with Macbooks.

dingo_bat 9y ago

It's infuriating that they don't include the pen at these prices.