24 ms·

I spent my career in tech, but wasn’t prepared for its effect on my kids

406 points by ALee 9y ago

telesilla 9y ago
The hardest thing for me has been young children begging, just begging, for screen time. It's heartbreaking and I know very few parents who have managed to make no mean no. I grew up watching TV but then, TV was mostly for adults and I only paid attention those few hours it was child-friendly. I spent almost the entire decade of the 90s without a television, only going to the movies or the occasional VHS. Even today, while I'm on my computer for 8 hours/5 days a week, I read books when I stop work or cook or just sit and talk. I turn off the screen, close the laptop and turn off wifi on my phone. I worry for the attention span our kids won't have. When was the last time you let a child just get bored, so they might entertain themselves with their imagination? On the other side, when we go out for walks or camping or away from tech, it really doesn't take long for the kids to adjust.
- yupyup 9y ago
  Well, if kids really want anything be sweets, a toy or more screen time they will beg. That's kid's nature ;) It's the parents job to be firm and establish some limits, making sure they are respected.
  - amrrs 9y ago
    I think OP meant to say just like kids beg for chocolates which they crave for, they also beg for Screen time (which seems to be a bad addiction for someone who's a kid) that also shows how much screen time as an addiction or interest has penetration through that age group.
    - rublev 9y ago
      Can't wait to raise my kids in a small village away from all this city/tech/social garbage.
- ben_jones 9y ago
  Thats what happens when you put all their social validation on a small device.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- mquander 9y ago
  I spent a lot of the decade of the 90s having the best times of my life immersing myself in video games and the Internet, and looking back it seems to me like I'm the better for it. I think it should rightfully be heartbreaking to deny that to a kid who would have it.
  - graphitezepp 9y ago
    My anecdote from spending ages immersed in video games and the internet has precisely the opposite sentiment. I find it heartbreaking how many youths replace socialization with social media and endless digital distraction.
  - koolba 9y ago
    > I think it should rightfully be heartbreaking to deny that to a kid who would have it. I'm going to assume you haven't seen the steaming piles that are today's kid's shows and apps. There's no way that crap is as mentally stimulating as content from the 90s (or before). It's optimized for addiction. And I'm not saying to cut it off entirely. I'm just saying the new stuff is universally terrible.
    - QAPereo 9y ago
      There's something really sinister about watching a toddler utterly engrossed in someone unwrapping Kinder eggs, for hours. In the 90's, the internet involved more than just slapping your palm against a screen and not blinking for the rest of the afternoon, and TV was in limited supply. Today, you never have to take a break if someone isn't there to teach you how, or even that you should.
      - benologist 9y ago
        In the 90s we watched crap literally engineered to sell toys. http://www.retrodomination.com/master-of-your-universe-the-story-of-he-man/ http://www.retrodomination.com/master-of-your-universe-the-s...
        9y ago
- benologist 9y ago
  When my daughter wants to start watching videos and she's had plenty I come up with something we can do together. Abandoning my own plans is hard but youtube gets forgotten quickly.
- neogodless 9y ago
  Disclaimer: Not a parent! Immediately disqualified from the discussion. My siblings have eight kids. I can't speak for how they act everyday, just what I observe during our frequent family gatherings. Here's what happens. The adults hang out and do boring things (OK on a good day, we play cards or board games or sit around a fire!) while the kids run around doing things. Only in the past year or two have electronics really been a part of this at all. The youngest is eight, the oldest 14. They play tag, climb things, play board games, play cards, sit around fires (hmm...) and they don't beg for electronics or even ask for them. I'm sure it's different at times, at home. But I know that most of them didn't have a tablet until maybe two years ago. And my siblings didn't either. Lately, sometimes they play video games or tablet games, but only sometimes. It's not actually a requirement of life to own and use a tablet. (Or smart phone.) And certainly not a requirement of childhood. Rather than have those things around and in use, the opposite was the norm. They were rare. Eventually the kids get to be 9 or 10 or 11 and say "hey, Everyone owns one, maybe I can have one?" and then they got one, finally, but with some rules in place, and times that it could be taken away, because the parents are making the rules. And it doesn't seem to have become an addiction for them, because it's just one thing added to an already interesting and abundant life. But I've seen other kids/parents where tablets and TV and phones are central to living and entertainment. And you don't want to be around for the war that erupts when the parent tries to pry the electronic device away from their child. It's a third arm, and it's not going anywhere. We do adapt to what we're around, how we behave, what's acceptable. If it's "normal" then anything else is change, with all the resistance that comes with it.
- vasco 9y ago
  So I guess you posted this from work then?
- fgjjgutjvnu 9y ago
  The irony is that the kids seem to focus on the screen for a very long time, while we worry about their attention span. I think a lot also depends on the content.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
- sctb 9y ago
  The submitter edited that out for space. We've dropped it altogether, which is the most common practice on HN, but we're happy to update it again if someone can suggest a better title.
  - bpicolo 9y ago
    deleted my comment after the change, cheers
rayiner 9y ago
It's a level-headed article. Parenting, like almost nothing else, turns normal, intelligent, educated people into nutters. A rational, evidence-based conversation about screen time, breastfeeding, pregnancy, birth, education, and diet is increasingly impossible to have, especially with millennial parents. I just got my four year old an iPhone (with a data plan, because she realized she didn't have wifi in the car). It's great! She can text me emojis and Digital Touch messages, and Facetime me at work whenever she wants. It's fine: https://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2017/jan/06/screen-time-guidelines-need-to-be-built-on-evidence-not-hype https://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2017/jan/0....
- bpicolo 9y ago
  Four is a bit early to be going to work
  - titanomachy 9y ago
    That's parenting advice I can get behind.
- citizenkeen 9y ago
  My wife is a pediatric OT and she no longer sees children 6 and under whose parents give them an electronic device. She's on the front lines and says those kids are just... rough. Anecdotal, yes, but it's just not worth her time / money.
  - jasonmp85 9y ago
    "Front lines"? Is this a war? Can you expand on this? She no longer sees them because they don't need services, or because she refuses to care for them? What purpose does that serve? I'm seriously dumbfounded. (edited to remove question about why a child needs OT)
    - sha34d 9y ago
      Often people in these industries use terms like 'the front lines' because it is their job to deal with severely trauma effected people, and that is taxing in just about every way possible. It's tough, tough work. What this poster's wife does is to help children who are having trouble with normal socialization. My interpretation is that she views kids with behavioral problems that have been given access to a phone before the age of 6 as too far gone. To be honest, anyone's time is limited and if the view of this Dr is that dealing with these children will take more time and not produce great results, it probably makes sense to focus on other patients, as there are always and will always be more patients demanding of more time than there are doctors x hours in the day.
citizenkeen 9y ago
'One of my favorite things you can do is plan a “device-free dinner.”' _A_ device free dinner? Why aren't all of them? These weird little "small gestures" make me feel like people have lost control of their homes. We have a landline expressly to give out to emergency contacts. And dinner is tech free. Every night. I think the main problem is tech has made everything _else_ easier, but parenting harder, and parents just aren't prepared to fight the battles / put in the work. A parent who is staring at Instagram when they're at the park shouldn't be surprised that their kids wants screens, too.
- careersuicide 9y ago
  I think this is the one thing about technology I'm old fashioned about (I roll my eyes hard when people say stuff like "You should delete your Facebook account, you'll be better off."). If I'm eating food with someone else the phone goes away. The only exception is if in the course of conversation an easily googleable question is asked and both the other person/people and I are actually interested in the answer instead of just guessing. But after that the phone goes right back in my pocket. It's not a hard rule, but it's one I do make a conscious effort to follow. I've noticed that others are a lot less likely to pull out their phones and stare while at the table if I don't do it myself. There's just something kinda sad to me when I see couples at a niceish restaurant and neither person is talking and both are looking at Facebook or Twitter and there's still food on their plates. I know you can't extrapolate that to a person's entire relationship, but it just seems kinda... unfortunate I guess.
  - dannysu 9y ago
    It's true. I was having hot pot with my wife the other day. Sitting near us was a couple, both on their phones the whole time and not looking at each other. When I first played with smartphone, it was before most people had phones with Internet (it was pre-iPhone). Someone commented on how I was on the phone all the time and the lesson stuck with me ever since. Now I don't do that to people.
    - joezydeco 9y ago
bungie4 9y ago
I have a 14 yr old and a 16 yr old step kids. They both live with their phones in their hands. I took them camping this past weekend. Fishing (caught 4 lake trout!), tubing, camp fire .. it was a blast. Even though their was no cell and no wifi neither of them could bare to put their phone down AND CHECK IT. They had fun, but the second they weren't stimulated they were asking to take a 40 minute boat ride (45mph!) to 'buy some ice cream' and get a cell signal. Sad.
- surrey-fringe 9y ago
  Sad!
- saint_fiasco 9y ago
  When I was 14 we always took plenty of snacks and a set of playing cards to any vacation or outdoor activity. It doesn't have anything to do with tech. Young people just get bored easily.
- JBlue42 9y ago
  How did you respond to those requests?
- observation 9y ago
  Hey, I think you're doing a good job. 4 lake trout beats any number of upvotes!
- bb611 9y ago
  Appropriate webcomic: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2015/05/11/a-recognized-phenomenon https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2015/05/11/a-recognized-p... These are activities you enjoy. They might be novel to your step kids, but they aren't activities which they actually enjoy.
NTDF9 9y ago
My cousin has a no tv policy in his home. The parents do watch tv but not in the presence of their 3 year old boy. They'd rather take the kid to play with other kids or swimming. This won't last, sure. But by the time the kid grows up to start making demands, he'll hopefully already be more invested in his current activities and find solace in swimming. I really don't want kids around me growing up to become unsocialized video game geniuses.
- justadeveloper2 9y ago
  We got rid of cable tv years ago and tv watching dropped off sharply after that. These days we barely turn it on, although the kids play XBox here and there. The iPads they have are a nuisance, though. We excised the worst demon, but Youtube has some pretty vapid crap, too. It's a process. I don't want to entirely cut them off because they do learn from it here and there. It's a tool, not a drug.
  - artur_makly 9y ago
    but they are clearly designed to be a drug.. under the guise of a tool: https://www.amazon.com/Hooked-How-Build-Habit-Forming-Products/dp/1591847788 https://www.amazon.com/Hooked-How-Build-Habit-Forming-Produc... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/07/what-youtube-reveals-about-the-toddler-mind/534765/?single_page=true https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/07/what-...
- samch 9y ago
  We've got a 5yr old and a 3yr old, and we have had a no-TV policy from day one. Our kids, of course, have seen TVs in restaurants and other people's homes, and they have even seen short videos (like a space shuttle launch) on our computer. Because it's not a routine part of their life (or even casually available to them), they don't even think to ask for it. They both have amazing imaginations and can entertain themselves even on long car rides. Instead of TV, we read books, color, play outside, go to the pool or park, build with LEGO - you know, the same stuff we did when we were kids.
artursapek 9y ago
For people like me who think smart phones ruin everything, I suggest looking into Waldorf education for your kids. Smart phones are banned at the school (until high school) and screen-oriented media (phones, TV, movies) are strongly discouraged outside of school. In my opinion the system attracts really interesting adults and kids who still know how to enjoy life the old fashioned way.
- mulmen 9y ago
  I wonder about the efficacy of banning the devices entirely until a certain point. Is that all that is done or is an attempt made to teach children how to responsibly use the devices so they don't gorge themselves when the ban is lifted?
  - rm_-rf_slash 9y ago
    It's for grown-ups like us to be able to remember "Oh yeah, there was a time that I wasn't umbilically tethered to a screen at all times and places, and I got along just fine."
    - mulmen 9y ago
      Will that be the effect on children though? I don't see how prohibition gets us there on its own. It doesn't work for any other addiction.
  - artursapek 9y ago
    There is an attempt and they are conscious of the fact that outright bans never work. It's more about preventing media from influencing the childrens' development, especially early on.
    - mulmen 9y ago
      That's great then. As adults were are left to our own devices to figure out how to use new technology. Giving children those mechanisms will serve them well long-term.
gthtjtkt 9y ago
One of the things I'm most thankful for is the fact that I grew up before cell phones were ubiquitous. And I honestly feel awful for children today, because they're all the unwitting subjects of a cruel experiment: What happens when you give people access to everything from birth? Knowing how much self-control it takes for me to resist social media, Reddit, games, etc. I can't even imagine what it's like for children. Many of them are probably being ruined by smartphones, but we won't realize until it's too late, like the kids in China who are all myopic because they spent too much time indoors.
graphitezepp 9y ago
I think it's (it being the socially damaging effects of persistent internet access) is going to get way worse before it gets better. Rising depression rates in youth are happening, but nobody is even talking about this on the 'mainstream', it's just not openly visible yet. Meanwhile the Google's and Facebook's algorithms keep getting more finely tuned . . .
- triangleman 9y ago
  No worries man, Google is going to diagnose your depression and all but prescribe your Prozac.
justadeveloper2 9y ago
Technology does not care about human values.
- mulmen 9y ago
  How can this be true? Technology is created exclusively by people. Our values are baked in. Filesystems have a concept of ownership, ask your dog what that means.
  - dionidium 9y ago
    I think it's more accurate to say that technology reveals the edges and contours of our values.
    - mulmen 9y ago
      That's a good way of stating it actually, something to think about.
  - maxwellfoley 9y ago
    Technology is created mostly by market demands and military needs, this is not at all the same thing as human values.
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Neil Postman (Technopoly) and the Heusemanns (Techno-Fix) both advance this concept signficantly.
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    Links: Techno-Fix, by Michael and Joyce Huesemann (note spelling): http://www.worldcat.org/title/techno-fix-why-technology-wont-save-us-or-the-environment/oclc/920316302 http://www.worldcat.org/title/techno-fix-why-technology-wont... Technopoly, Neil Postman: http://www.worldcat.org/title/technopoly/oclc/557091816 http://www.worldcat.org/title/technopoly/oclc/557091816
- 9y ago
mcone 9y ago
This doesn't invalidate the article, but I feel the need to point out that the author lives in a $63 million house with $80,000 worth of TV screens lining the walls. "Anyone in the house can change the screens’ displays to their favorite painting or photograph, in effect personalizing the room (via lighting, temperature, and even decor) to the guest’s own flavor." [0] They certainly didn't do themselves any favors when they built their house. [0] http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/the-biggest/12-unbelievable-facts-about-bill-gates-house/ http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/the-biggest/12-unbelieva...
- devmunchies 9y ago
  Yes, a "career in tech" and a tech-lifestyle are different things and you can keep them separated. Based on the article and your comment it seems they have more of a problem with the latter.
  - nxc18 9y ago
    This is big. I used to work for a manager who didn't even have a computer at home (and no smartphone in 2013). She definitely excelled at keeping tech out of her daily life.
    - provost 9y ago
      > She definitely excelled at keeping tech out of her daily life. I'm curious -- what was she managing? Did she excel in her role?
bronz 9y ago
whenever i see parents struggling with issues like this, i wonder why everyone wanders into parenthood without any forethought, any preparation. its so frustrating to see people take their hands off the wheel and say "well, i have no control over this situation. i hope my kid turns out ok." people have this idea that you cant influence your kids. they send them to school where you have 0% control over what they see and do. parents do prepare when it comes to finances and having a crib, but its the larger picture that is not considered in advance. nobody seems to look at how kids are raised now and think "this is completely broken" and then make a plan to deal with it. children are like any other animal, they need to be raised deliberately. if you spoil a dog, and dont train it, what kind of dog do you wind up with? what kind of people do you end up with when they are sucked into ipads while still in a stroller, and they are sent to schools that are little more than zoos being overseen by air-headed sorority girls? well, what a coincidence, you end up with the poorly adjusted and frustrated kind of person that seems to be more and more common these days. just because society says that everyone has to use social media doesnt mean you have to let your kid use social media. fuck society.
- joshribakoff 9y ago
  > children are like any other animal Yeah, raising kids is just like owning a gerbil. Exactly.
  - imchillyb 9y ago
    @joshribakoff, you're being disingenuous. You left out the important part of that quote: > they need to be raised deliberately. if you spoil a dog, and dont train it, what kind of dog do you wind up with? what kind of people do you end up with when they are sucked into ipads while still in a stroller, and they are sent to schools that are little more than zoos being overseen by air-headed sorority girls? That is succinct, true, and a shame. A shame, just like your hand-picking out a part of a sentence, in order to make the poster sound like an idiot is. He omitted: in that, from his sentence. They are just like animals, in that.... And if you were to be truthful with yourself, you'd admit he's eerily correct in his observation.
kardianos 9y ago
Technology (apps, phones, news) is a tool. If tech distracts from children forming attachment to parents and other people in their lives, then there is a problem full stop. The problem isn't "screen time" or even "tech" directly. Children (or adults) who have poor attachment (disorganized, dismissive, or just lacks practice), they will be at much greater risk.
foodshin 9y ago
While I do appreciate how much is at my fingertips with my phone I also acknowledge how it can insidiously develop unnecessary habits–random home button tapping anyone? Reminds me of this article: https://theroamingmind.com/2017/03/06/social-media-is-the-new-smoking/ https://theroamingmind.com/2017/03/06/social-media-is-the-ne... I also don't want to be quick in demonizing specific apps or companies. I have power over my notification settings which have a huge effect on usage patterns. I've been using Moment (https://inthemoment.io/ https://inthemoment.io/) to help get quick snapshots at my utilization rates. *Edit: grammar
SunnyCanuck 9y ago
Have two kids, 14/12. They've grown up as fully connected kids, have always had access to their own devices, never more than a year or two behind the Big Now. We have never imposed "limits for the sake of limits" on their screen time. I find the idea preposterous, frankly. We have no issue connecting with them, or doing family things together, or etc etc etc. If you can't connect with your kids when they have iPhone in hand, you're not going to be able to connect with your kids even if you're a million miles from the nearest wireless cloud. A lot of discussion around this issue is just tired rehashing of the same complaints every generation over the past 150 years has said about the incoming generation. Some of y'all in here already sound like grandparents, lol.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  >We have no issue connecting with them, or // It's good that all people are exactly the same as you and your kids and that this will therefore work for everyone, isn't it. /s
  - SunnyCanuck 9y ago
    I didn't make any such claim. If you'd like to respond to what was actually written, feel free. :)
    - shakna 9y ago
      > If you can't connect with your kids when they have iPhone in hand, you're not going to be able to connect with your kids even if you're a million miles from the nearest wireless cloud. It seems to me, you did make that claim.
      - robertlagrant 9y ago
        They were obviously implying that, yes. Then just backpedalling for some strange reason.
    - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
mirimir 9y ago
OK, so I'm pretty old. I remember, as a child, assuming that misadventures would be largely forgotten by adulthood. I did many crazy things, but there's no record, except for whatever people remember. OK, maybe a few FBI files buried somewhere in Washington ;) But now? There's a record of everything. Starting before birth, in many cases. First words from smart toys. Social media. Game sites. Sales portals. Files saved by peers. And of course, that plus the exacerbation of psychosocial craziness.
otakucode 9y ago
I got Internet access in 1990 when I was 12 years old. Completely unfettered, unmonitored, unlimited in any way. And I wouldn't trade it for anything. Certainly many, if not most, kids would end up obsessing over social status and gossip and similar things. That has nothing to do with technology and absolutely everything to do with how they deal with their life in general. They're encouraged to avoid taking an intellectual approach to life, to never question or doubt their emotional impulses (indeed taught that those impulses are more trustworthy and 'pure' than conclusions reached intellectually). They're the kids that have always been popular, the bullies and the kids that get DUIs before out of high school. You can't protect them from themselves through any means if you're not willing to address their way of living. And for the kids that aren't destined to live an adolescence of bickering and strife, they will flourish with access to the whole of human knowledge and ability to interact with online communities as an equal, without anyone knowing their age unless they choose to reveal it.
- mcone 9y ago
  > That has nothing to do with technology and absolutely everything to do with how they deal with their life in general. With all due respect, accessing the internet today is nothing like what it was in 1990. It's like comparing apples to oranges. There's a huge difference between accessing a BBS with a modem and pulling an iPhone out your pocket and pulling up Facebook's newsfeed with a couple taps of your finger. These applications are designed to be addictive, and people's unfettered ability to access them anywhere enables their addictions. The physical and technical barriers that limited your access in 1990 are long gone.
  - otakucode 9y ago
    You are right, it is certainly quite a bit different. I'm not sure how material the differences are though. For what it's worth, I had access to BBS' prior to that and had already enjoyed discussing things with adults as an equal before getting a dialup account on a local university mainframe. Everything was done through a shell account, telnet and gopher and similar. I mean, I was still able to quite easily find myself to alt.binaries.tasteless and find extreme porn and all that sort of stuff. Those things like Facebook and such that are designed to be addictive are only addictive to the types of people who find that kind of thing alluring. People who seek social validation whether than evaluating themselves for themselves can not be protected from that tendency. And that is, whether we like it or not, the foundation of modern society. It is an inevitable consequence that such people will spend their lives drowned in neurotic worry. It's not particularly new, and the systems that make engaging in it so easy also make leaving that sort of thinking behind if a person wishes to do so. Ultimately, though, consider the kid. If the kid is a social butterfly, what effect is withholding tech from them going to have? They're going to be made bitter, probably be significantly sidelined in their social circles - the exact place they derive every ounce of their self worth. It wouldn't exactly be a pretty alternative.
flatline 9y ago
> I spent my career at Microsoft trying to imagine what technology could do, and still I wasn’t prepared for smartphones and social media There is a certain irony in her opening statement regarding Microsoft's lack of vision in these two spaces. I think there a have been some unforeseen consequences of these but even when I was a teen, kids would spend hours each day on the phone, or on the computer playing games - some even online - or watching TV. I feel like the fundamental interpersonal dynamic really hasn't changed that much, and I say this as a parent of young kids and a friend of lots of parents with teenagers.
taurath 9y ago
Its slightly ironic to me because I went much more to technology than my peers growing up because I had depression and social problems, not the other way around. I think technology being so mainstream now means that the popular kids can now have a lot more online points (followers, likes, etc) just like in real life. Stuff happening on a screen is very frequently a lot more interesting than whats going on in a suburb - besides, you can't get social likes/currency if you're not online.
squozzer 9y ago
I dunno -- part of the problem might be that we older people have notions of how childhood should be. Entire industries are built around it. And we eagerly declare an emergency when kids decide to stray from the notional path. But maybe a little experience will enlighten (maybe.) I recall some 30-odd years ago how much more fun D&D would be if all of the paper, die-rolling, etc. were automated. This was sometime between the Atari 2600 and Commodore 64. I got my wish, obviously, and then some. And it seemed old-fashioned ways of gaming would forever be consigned to history's dustbin. Only it didn't happen that way. Dice and tabletops are still around, maybe more popular than in my day. So I for one will not surrender to despair, or go blue-nose against modern tech "for the children." Maybe we should just go with the flow.
bllguo 9y ago
The thing is that technology can have an incredibly positive benefit on a kid's life if done right. People espousing schools banning screens and limited screen time strike me as people attached to the status quo. We need to adapt and learn how to raise children around technology.
fzeroracer 9y ago
When I was a teenager living with my parents we used to have a 'devices free' dinner where we'd sit in silence and realize that an awkward teenager had little in common to talk about with his out-of-touch parents. This was the time where conversation was forced and often led to arguments. Though this says more about my upbringing than the use of technology. I think my point is that people see people looking at their phone while in restaurants or people sitting silently and assuming that this void means that the social aspect of the human race is doomed for destruction. You can't force conversation and I've found with friends and even family now that the phone has replaced forced discussions with something else. And you don't always need to fill silence with conversation and nonsense. Similarly I would say there's nothing wrong with lessening the use of technology your kids use, but at the same time you can't just outright cut them and yourself out from it. Instead you should adapt; give your kids positive uses of the TV or their phone. If you try to force devices-free meals your kid may think that bringing up issues of cyberbullying, facebook etc might not be appropriate.
hondo77 9y ago
Billionaire tells us how we should be living our lives. How fortunate we are.
- contingencies 9y ago
  Wife of billionaire with a track record of 100% failed ventures in mobile tells us all about mobile.
Mz 9y ago
Parents face a bit of a catch-22: Those that have kids young are not all that grown up themselves. Those that have them later have trouble remembering what it is like to be a kid. They each have their upsides and downsides. There is no perfect time to become a parent. But, I think older parents have challenges they didn't expect because being a parent is not like your day job. Even if you do daycare, you get to put it down at the end of the day. A child is responsibility 24/7, even when they are at school or daycare. It is just different in important ways from most other pursuits. Plus, we don't really have an established culture for dealing with all this as a parent. So much of our very widespread tech is too new for us to have some established precedent to confidently draw upon.
thebaer 9y ago
The problem isn't with devices or necessarily "screen time" but with the types of software on these devices. Social media is just 21st century TV -- that's why it's harmful. The platforms that are ad-driven and engineered to be addictive don't help us connect in the same meaningful ways we get offline. So as you might restrict your kids' time watching TV, parents should be aware of the amount of time kids spend on interactive TV. Phones are particularly demonized because their omnipresence encourages more consumption, but really they're just the physical manifestation of the individual problems starting inside the devices. (Aside: I'd really be curious to know the amount of time people spend passively consuming information on social media vs. creating / contributing.) And as an industry I think it's important we find other business models. We build these apps for "stickiness" and "engagement" -- seemingly innocuous metrics that ultimately accumulate to form these larger societal issues.
Noos 9y ago
"As its use has proliferated, so has its effects... ...the interviewer, apparently, asks young people (age 18 to 22 years old) the following: whether men with the (device hidden) are human or not; whether they are losing contact with reality; whether the relation between eyes and ears is changing radically, whether they are psychotic or schizophrenic; whether they are worried about the fate of humanity." Can you guess the device? It's the Sony Walkman, and the time is the 1980s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkman_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkman_effect The arguments aren't new or novel. Hosoda was saying similar in the 1980s, and the Walkman just as easily isolated people in the 1980s as phones do now. yet somehow humanity survived. Remember pagers? They were the device of choice in the 1990s for kids, and they were pilloried just as bad, and even linked to drugs. There's a pretty decent history of people panicking morally about new technologies and their dehumanizing effects, and generally people have adapted more or less fine.
- rlglwx 9y ago
  But maybe we have lost something also. As a truly social species, do we not lose as a society when barriers are erected to sociability? The literature certainly points to increased social isolation among adults and children. It also makes the point that loneliness is a risk factor in things like dementia, being overweight and a litany of other ailments. I reject the notion that anything new is automatically better and has only net positive effects.
  - taurath 9y ago
    I don't think that's the exact argument the parent was making. We've lost just as much from the car, suburbs, and plane travel but you can't do much about them - they're there so we have to adjust.
  - auganov 9y ago
    If anything, most of the addictive internet stimuli are social to some degree. I do think there's an interesting analysis to be made of how social connectedness got redistributed though. Both in terms of absolute connectedness and who we're connected to.
lemonycracket 9y ago
A woman that's surprised how much of an impact acting like a man has on her kids. Shocking
noonespecial 9y ago
I think the opposite. Every one of the effects (and more) that she decided happened too early before her kids were "emotionally ready", the high school experience smashed down on me like a meteor strike. A link to my tribe in my pocket making me feel even a bit less than a complete outsider would have been a godsend. Bbs's saved my ass while my parents fretted that "all that time on the computer doing god knows what" would ruin me for life so what do I know?
artur_makly 9y ago
Amen. Im glad im not the only one freaking out about this. a few weeks ago i posted to HN asking for parental advice: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14924520 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14924520 i mostly got "aahh dont worry about it. you are being hysterical" ... i see it all around me (even in 2nd world countries like Argentina - where im an expat ). Its quickly deteriorating the fabric of our society. When I see families go out together for dinner ( 90% of them are ALL on their phones ) .. Single fathers with their sons.. both on phones.. At a singles-night at a bar.. all on phones instagramming hard. Their little brains are being hardwired to the digital COCA-COLA..and when the water comes around they look at you like "why drink that shit?!" When he grows up.. no laptop at school for him: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret-don-t-take-notes-with-a-laptop/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret... in fact our family is seriously thinking of moving to Patagonia, just to re-calibrate with natural wavelengths.
- hycaria 9y ago
  When and how do one come to think that it is a good thing to let kids watch YT videos ? I used to wonder this but I think now I know why. I barely watch any myself so I really don't get the hype people seem to have for videos. But my boyfriend watches more YT than I do, and follows channels I don't get the point of. That's actually the moment I realized my disinterest for browsing channels and watching videos was maybe not so common after all. Also, what's the problem with banning it altogether ? I don't see one, other than the disapointment that compromise didn't work. But of course a 5yo can't have the self control some people never even reach during their lifetimes anyways.
alexashka 9y ago
I've found that the more competent and as a result confident the parents, the less they micro-manage their kids. They don't feel the need to send them to private schools, have them be A students, get into universities, spend less time on their phone etc etc etc. That's just insecure, overbearing parents. There's some subtle irony in the same person who is part of a foundation saving kids in Africa, worrying about phone use. You'd think she'd have a greater perspective on these things.
pnathan 9y ago
Politely, this is not a new problem. Nor is it untypical for the upper crust to have issues with their kids, if myths and tales from earlier times are to be believed. I can confidently say that screen addiction is kind of a thing for many kids. They can't bear to be without it. I notice my baby stares at the glowing screens, the phones, the computers. He also stares at fires. Brightness is attractive, apparently. But something my wife and I are very set about: Mr. Baby will have to be able to bear being without a phone. Not that we'll be hovering or super limiting, but we expect Mr. Baby to be able to psychologically handle not having a phone glued to himself at all waking hours, and we will adjust our own phone usage if it becomes apparent we have issues. Most entertainment and many non-entertainment phone apps are designed to be attention-grabbing machines, and that's worrisome. Kids don't have that armor to be able to drop out into a focus world. It is a very hot media, by McLuhan's classification, and I think that's worrisome. Anyway. Unexpected effects happen, we're spinning faster than we ever have, and we have to ride the wave.
- l33tbro 9y ago
  The lack of awe is what surprises me. Just how quickly we take each breakthrough for granted. Sure, we're spinning faster and faster, as you say. But sometimes I think it's actually the FOMO mechanism built into social media that is keeping us unimpressed by the amazing technology powering it. Kind of a cruel joke really.
  - pnathan 9y ago
    > The lack of awe is what surprises me. Just how quickly we take each breakthrough for granted. That's just your perspective and the people you deal with. Many people I know over 40 are amazed. Perspective.... A lot of the technology is respun other technology, and that does take the luster off. Personally I think a lot of the social media stuff is bunk, particularly the bits that prioritize zero-content fluff. But things like Mastodon, Hacker News, or Wordpress (remember twitter was microblogging) have spawned deep and thoughtful engagement with the world and others.
artur_makly 9y ago
i think this Android app will do the trick for kids under 15: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zerodesktop.appdetox.qualitytime&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zerodeskto... and this one for IOS: TeenSafe https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/teensafe-parental-control/id1066075344?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/teensafe-parental-control/id...
KirinDave 9y ago
I think maybe mobile tech is starting to go through it's 90's-era-children's-tv-style "Oh my god nearly everything we've made is a manipulative commercial designed to get an economic outcome without regard for the consequences to the kids" moment. And that's good. Because while kids are much more susceptible to the attention-seeking games mobile app designers play, they are by no means ineffective on adults.
dharma1 9y ago
two kids, 2 and 7. They have a hard time having dinner without watching something on iPad. Otherwise the 2 year old doesn't use technology aside from TV, 7 year old has 1 hour of iPad time most days. I like to give them some exposure to tech but much of it so addictive, makes me think how it must affect reward pathways in a maturing brain
j_s 9y ago
I don't think it was tech specifically as much as the love of tech. I appreciate the reminder to be mindful for my own family's sake!
fullshark 9y ago
I agree with the sentiment of this, but this is pretty light.
hiisukun 9y ago
When I was growing up, I used to read quite a lot. I wasn't allowed to bring my book to the dinner table - no matter how suspenseful the chapter or how fascinating the subject. Of course my childhood wasn't perfect; every night wasn't a talkative social family dinner. I appreciated the rule even back then, though I wanted to read my book it was easy to see that me doing so was taking something away from the other people at the table. A little intangible, but quite clear. I can't help but wonder if in the many countries & cultures, and across many generations, what various expectations there are for family time together, and what challenges and barriers were in the way. "No lens polishing at the dinner table!" might have been said to some young astronomer hundreds of years ago. Mobile phones are a great source of information (something I've been fascinated with my whole life), but sometimes seem to replace rather than supplement social interactions. While I can see why people would want a "tech free dinner", I've also had the joy of a "facetime dinner" with friend's grandchildren who live far away. It was a wonderful and natural thing for the child involved, because it added to the social harmony, rather than isolating parts of it.
artur_makly 9y ago
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/07/what-youtube-reveals-about-the-toddler-mind/534765/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/07/what-...
peterburkimsher 9y ago
"eighth-graders who use social media more than 10 hours a week are 56 percent more likely to say they’re unhappy than peers who use it less" But is that a causal relationship? Are people unhappy first, so they therefore go on Facebook to seek help? Does taking away that escape route make it worse? Correlation does not imply causation.
luckydude 9y ago
I'm a retired geek but I do tractor work, I just pulled a 14 hour day and I'm having some wine so salt heavily. In my opinion, the best thing you can do with kids is create boredom. If they have access to a shop, or some lumber, they will start to build stuff. If kids are bored and they turn that into building, that's the first step towards getting into a good undergrad school. Building stuff is good. The hard part, as parents, is creating that boredom. It's so easy to give them the video game babysitter. I haven't done well at that. I wish I had some magic statement that made that part easy but that part is super super hard. The other thing I'd say about kids, and I hate this, really hate this, is private school. It's better. My kids went and were on track to go to Los Gatos High School which is a pretty decent school. For various reasons we found kirby.org and both of my kids go there and it's a shit ton better. I hate private schools, I think kids should experience the full range of people, not just the rich kids that get into private schools, but wow, the private school was so much better. So much better. Hugely better. My younger son who hates that school, it's a nerd school and he's a jock, came to me and said "yeah, I want to go there, it's better than Los Gatos". My older kid is applying to schools and he has a shot at the ivys, that's all the private school. I'm ashamed to admit that I like private schools, but wow, have they been good for my kids.
- bb611 9y ago
  > In my opinion, the best thing you can do with kids is create boredom. If they have access to a shop, or some lumber, they will start to build stuff. As a kid I was constantly bored, this strategy was deeply ineffective on me. I did grow into it as an adult, but it took a long time. In short, YMMV.
  - Can_Not 9y ago
    Did you have have available creative outlets though, like a workshop?
    - bb611 9y ago
      Yes, my point was that I had preconditions and yet didn't reach the expected outcome. Interestingly enough, my twin brother did. Kids are complicated and non-deterministic.
simplexion 9y ago
How does a child having a computer exclude them from learning empathy? Do teenagers that are more likely to be depressed use social media more? There are so many problems with this article.
drdeadringer 9y ago
> I probably would have waited longer before putting a computer in my children’s pockets A part of me wonders how this consideration might stunt the child for "the near future to come" in a societal context. Sure, we could want our children to have similar experiences to our own. However, technology and at least in part related society advances increase at ever faster speeds. My grandfather could get a job by walking down the street and saying "hello" to a shopkeeper. Me? Not going to happen; "apply online" and maybe I'll get an automated, maybe even kind, rejection email about "skills" or "fit". My children? Some AI could automatically filter them in or out of internships and the like. What could a totally blank ghost town of lifetime data prior to 5, 10, or 15 years old do to someone in a completely, totally, all-encompassing digital age? Nevermind what this would mean for somebody running for political office.
jansho 9y ago
"The most important thing we've learned, So far as children are concerned, Is never, NEVER, NEVER let Them near your television set -- Or better still, just don't install The idiotic thing at all. In almost every house we've been, We've watched them gaping at the screen. They loll and slop and lounge about, And stare until their eyes pop out. (Last week in someone's place we saw A dozen eyeballs on the floor.) They sit and stare and stare and sit Until they're hypnotised by it, Until they're absolutely drunk With all that shocking ghastly junk. Oh yes, we know it keeps them still, They don't climb out the window sill, They never fight or kick or punch, They leave you free to cook the lunch And wash the dishes in the sink -- But did you ever stop to think, To wonder just exactly what This does to your beloved tot? IT ROTS THE SENSE IN THE HEAD! IT KILLS IMAGINATION DEAD! IT CLOGS AND CLUTTERS UP THE MIND! IT MAKES A CHILD SO DULL AND BLIND HE CAN NO LONGER UNDERSTAND A FANTASY, A FAIRYLAND! HIS BRAIN BECOMES AS SOFT AS CHEESE! HIS POWERS OF THINKING RUST AND FREEZE! HE CANNOT THINK -- HE ONLY SEES! 'All right!' you'll cry. 'All right!' you'll say, 'But if we take the set away, What shall we do to entertain Our darling children? Please explain!' We'll answer this by asking you, 'What used the darling ones to do? 'How used they keep themselves contented Before this monster was invented?' Have you forgotten? Don't you know? We'll say it very loud and slow: THEY ... USED ... TO ... READ! They'd READ and READ, AND READ and READ, and then proceed To READ some more. Great Scott! Gadzooks! One half their lives was reading books! The nursery shelves held books galore! Books cluttered up the nursery floor! And in the bedroom, by the bed, More books were waiting to be read! Such wondrous, fine, fantastic tales Of dragons, gypsies, queens, and whales And treasure isles, and distant shores Where smugglers rowed with muffled oars, And pirates wearing purple pants, And sailing ships and elephants, And cannibals crouching 'round the pot, Stirring away at something hot. (It smells so good, what can it be? Good gracious, it's Penelope.) The younger ones had Beatrix Potter With Mr. Tod, the dirty rotter, And Squirrel Nutkin, Pigling Bland, And Mrs. Tiggy-Winkle and- Just How The Camel Got His Hump, And How the Monkey Lost His Rump, And Mr. Toad, and bless my soul, There's Mr. Rat and Mr. Mole- Oh, books, what books they used to know, Those children living long ago! So please, oh please, we beg, we pray, Go throw your TV set away, And in its place you can install A lovely bookshelf on the wall. Then fill the shelves with lots of books, Ignoring all the dirty looks, The screams and yells, the bites and kicks, And children hitting you with sticks- Fear not, because we promise you That, in about a week or two Of having nothing else to do, They'll now begin to feel the need Of having something to read. And once they start -- oh boy, oh boy! You watch the slowly growing joy That fills their hearts. They'll grow so keen They'll wonder what they'd ever seen In that ridiculous machine, That nauseating, foul, unclean, Repulsive television screen! And later, each and every kid Will love you more for what you did." -- Roald Dahl died in 1990, I wonder what he would think about smartphones :)
spacemanmatt 9y ago
I grew up glued to screens since I was 11. My parents hated it, but my hobby became my career and I became a confident and social individual despite my constant interest in computers. Now, I serve dinner in front of a movie/TV sometimes, and don't police my kids' phone usage at the table. I do police other behavior, and checking out in the presence of others isn't acceptable. They try to become little addicts (they're young) but the pressure to engage locally wins often enough. If there's nothing to talk about, I don't mind if they get online. It generally takes all day to exhaust our conversations like that, though.
adam_seeliger 9y ago
What a whining bitch.
deleted 9y ago
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untilHellbanned 9y ago
virtue signaling
jknz 9y ago
1B startup idea: equip every primary/secondary/high schools with walls that block every cellular signals.
nvarsj 9y ago
I'm always struck by the arrogance of parents. It never changes through the ages. Why do you think you know what's best for your kids? Do you really have the insight and experience from a single lifetime's perspective to know what's best for kids? Especially striking are the programmers who grew up on technology. Literally spent all day on a computer as a kid, and now have high paying jobs, and happy lives. And then they say "no tech in the house!" - like it is some bad thing. It's almost like a cult, there is a striking lack of rationality. It's like that protestant ethic - if it feels good, it must be bad. I have two kids, and I do limit screen time to an extent. But I don't go and brag like I know this is the best thing for them. I have very mixed feelings about it. Certainly when my kids are teenagers, I think an attempt to control them is just going to end up bad for everyone involved.
- robertlagrant 9y ago
  No one is bragging. They are just talking. And the point isn't that no kid can cope with massive exposure to technology, it's that now, all kids have access to it. A kid from the 90s who grew up on it was probably pretty smart to be able to access that stuff, and could potentially cope better with it than another kid (although you can have very poor social development and still get paid a lot, so the job thing doesn't really prove anything) - now, all kids have access, if their parents let them. I'm not saying it's bad, necessarily. I'm just concerned by the lack of logic in a lot of these pro-technology responses.
tokeovertheline 9y ago
Most people can't think one step ahead. Let alone multiple steps....losers at chess....This has been screwing up humanity for millenia, accelerated with the industrial/digital onslaught. Thanks for the tech and enjoy your zombie kids.

406 points by ALee 9y ago

The hardest thing for me has been young children begging, just begging, for screen time. It's heartbreaking and I know very few parents who have managed to make no mean no. I grew up watching TV but then, TV was mostly for adults and I only paid attention those few hours it was child-friendly. I spent almost the entire decade of the 90s without a television, only going to the movies or the occasional VHS. Even today, while I'm on my computer for 8 hours/5 days a week, I read books when I stop work or cook or just sit and talk. I turn off the screen, close the laptop and turn off wifi on my phone. I worry for the attention span our kids won't have. When was the last time you let a child just get bored, so they might entertain themselves with their imagination? On the other side, when we go out for walks or camping or away from tech, it really doesn't take long for the kids to adjust.

yupyup 9y ago
Well, if kids really want anything be sweets, a toy or more screen time they will beg. That's kid's nature ;) It's the parents job to be firm and establish some limits, making sure they are respected.
- amrrs 9y ago
  I think OP meant to say just like kids beg for chocolates which they crave for, they also beg for Screen time (which seems to be a bad addiction for someone who's a kid) that also shows how much screen time as an addiction or interest has penetration through that age group.
  - rublev 9y ago
    Can't wait to raise my kids in a small village away from all this city/tech/social garbage.
ben_jones 9y ago
Thats what happens when you put all their social validation on a small device.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
mquander 9y ago
I spent a lot of the decade of the 90s having the best times of my life immersing myself in video games and the Internet, and looking back it seems to me like I'm the better for it. I think it should rightfully be heartbreaking to deny that to a kid who would have it.
- graphitezepp 9y ago
  My anecdote from spending ages immersed in video games and the internet has precisely the opposite sentiment. I find it heartbreaking how many youths replace socialization with social media and endless digital distraction.
- koolba 9y ago
  > I think it should rightfully be heartbreaking to deny that to a kid who would have it. I'm going to assume you haven't seen the steaming piles that are today's kid's shows and apps. There's no way that crap is as mentally stimulating as content from the 90s (or before). It's optimized for addiction. And I'm not saying to cut it off entirely. I'm just saying the new stuff is universally terrible.
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    There's something really sinister about watching a toddler utterly engrossed in someone unwrapping Kinder eggs, for hours. In the 90's, the internet involved more than just slapping your palm against a screen and not blinking for the rest of the afternoon, and TV was in limited supply. Today, you never have to take a break if someone isn't there to teach you how, or even that you should.
    - benologist 9y ago
      In the 90s we watched crap literally engineered to sell toys. http://www.retrodomination.com/master-of-your-universe-the-story-of-he-man/ http://www.retrodomination.com/master-of-your-universe-the-s...
      - 9y ago
benologist 9y ago
When my daughter wants to start watching videos and she's had plenty I come up with something we can do together. Abandoning my own plans is hard but youtube gets forgotten quickly.
neogodless 9y ago
Disclaimer: Not a parent! Immediately disqualified from the discussion. My siblings have eight kids. I can't speak for how they act everyday, just what I observe during our frequent family gatherings. Here's what happens. The adults hang out and do boring things (OK on a good day, we play cards or board games or sit around a fire!) while the kids run around doing things. Only in the past year or two have electronics really been a part of this at all. The youngest is eight, the oldest 14. They play tag, climb things, play board games, play cards, sit around fires (hmm...) and they don't beg for electronics or even ask for them. I'm sure it's different at times, at home. But I know that most of them didn't have a tablet until maybe two years ago. And my siblings didn't either. Lately, sometimes they play video games or tablet games, but only sometimes. It's not actually a requirement of life to own and use a tablet. (Or smart phone.) And certainly not a requirement of childhood. Rather than have those things around and in use, the opposite was the norm. They were rare. Eventually the kids get to be 9 or 10 or 11 and say "hey, Everyone owns one, maybe I can have one?" and then they got one, finally, but with some rules in place, and times that it could be taken away, because the parents are making the rules. And it doesn't seem to have become an addiction for them, because it's just one thing added to an already interesting and abundant life. But I've seen other kids/parents where tablets and TV and phones are central to living and entertainment. And you don't want to be around for the war that erupts when the parent tries to pry the electronic device away from their child. It's a third arm, and it's not going anywhere. We do adapt to what we're around, how we behave, what's acceptable. If it's "normal" then anything else is change, with all the resistance that comes with it.
vasco 9y ago
So I guess you posted this from work then?
fgjjgutjvnu 9y ago
The irony is that the kids seem to focus on the screen for a very long time, while we worry about their attention span. I think a lot also depends on the content.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

sctb 9y ago
The submitter edited that out for space. We've dropped it altogether, which is the most common practice on HN, but we're happy to update it again if someone can suggest a better title.
- bpicolo 9y ago
  deleted my comment after the change, cheers

rayiner 9y ago

It's a level-headed article. Parenting, like almost nothing else, turns normal, intelligent, educated people into nutters. A rational, evidence-based conversation about screen time, breastfeeding, pregnancy, birth, education, and diet is increasingly impossible to have, especially with millennial parents. I just got my four year old an iPhone (with a data plan, because she realized she didn't have wifi in the car). It's great! She can text me emojis and Digital Touch messages, and Facetime me at work whenever she wants. It's fine: https://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2017/jan/06/screen-time-guidelines-need-to-be-built-on-evidence-not-hype https://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2017/jan/0....

bpicolo 9y ago
Four is a bit early to be going to work
- titanomachy 9y ago
  That's parenting advice I can get behind.
citizenkeen 9y ago
My wife is a pediatric OT and she no longer sees children 6 and under whose parents give them an electronic device. She's on the front lines and says those kids are just... rough. Anecdotal, yes, but it's just not worth her time / money.
- jasonmp85 9y ago
  "Front lines"? Is this a war? Can you expand on this? She no longer sees them because they don't need services, or because she refuses to care for them? What purpose does that serve? I'm seriously dumbfounded. (edited to remove question about why a child needs OT)
  - sha34d 9y ago
    Often people in these industries use terms like 'the front lines' because it is their job to deal with severely trauma effected people, and that is taxing in just about every way possible. It's tough, tough work. What this poster's wife does is to help children who are having trouble with normal socialization. My interpretation is that she views kids with behavioral problems that have been given access to a phone before the age of 6 as too far gone. To be honest, anyone's time is limited and if the view of this Dr is that dealing with these children will take more time and not produce great results, it probably makes sense to focus on other patients, as there are always and will always be more patients demanding of more time than there are doctors x hours in the day.

citizenkeen 9y ago

'One of my favorite things you can do is plan a “device-free dinner.”' _A_ device free dinner? Why aren't all of them? These weird little "small gestures" make me feel like people have lost control of their homes. We have a landline expressly to give out to emergency contacts. And dinner is tech free. Every night. I think the main problem is tech has made everything _else_ easier, but parenting harder, and parents just aren't prepared to fight the battles / put in the work. A parent who is staring at Instagram when they're at the park shouldn't be surprised that their kids wants screens, too.

careersuicide 9y ago
I think this is the one thing about technology I'm old fashioned about (I roll my eyes hard when people say stuff like "You should delete your Facebook account, you'll be better off."). If I'm eating food with someone else the phone goes away. The only exception is if in the course of conversation an easily googleable question is asked and both the other person/people and I are actually interested in the answer instead of just guessing. But after that the phone goes right back in my pocket. It's not a hard rule, but it's one I do make a conscious effort to follow. I've noticed that others are a lot less likely to pull out their phones and stare while at the table if I don't do it myself. There's just something kinda sad to me when I see couples at a niceish restaurant and neither person is talking and both are looking at Facebook or Twitter and there's still food on their plates. I know you can't extrapolate that to a person's entire relationship, but it just seems kinda... unfortunate I guess.
- dannysu 9y ago
  It's true. I was having hot pot with my wife the other day. Sitting near us was a couple, both on their phones the whole time and not looking at each other. When I first played with smartphone, it was before most people had phones with Internet (it was pre-iPhone). Someone commented on how I was on the phone all the time and the lesson stuck with me ever since. Now I don't do that to people.
  - joezydeco 9y ago

bungie4 9y ago

I have a 14 yr old and a 16 yr old step kids. They both live with their phones in their hands. I took them camping this past weekend. Fishing (caught 4 lake trout!), tubing, camp fire .. it was a blast. Even though their was no cell and no wifi neither of them could bare to put their phone down AND CHECK IT. They had fun, but the second they weren't stimulated they were asking to take a 40 minute boat ride (45mph!) to 'buy some ice cream' and get a cell signal. Sad.

surrey-fringe 9y ago
Sad!
saint_fiasco 9y ago
When I was 14 we always took plenty of snacks and a set of playing cards to any vacation or outdoor activity. It doesn't have anything to do with tech. Young people just get bored easily.
JBlue42 9y ago
How did you respond to those requests?
observation 9y ago
Hey, I think you're doing a good job. 4 lake trout beats any number of upvotes!
bb611 9y ago
Appropriate webcomic: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2015/05/11/a-recognized-phenomenon https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2015/05/11/a-recognized-p... These are activities you enjoy. They might be novel to your step kids, but they aren't activities which they actually enjoy.

NTDF9 9y ago

My cousin has a no tv policy in his home. The parents do watch tv but not in the presence of their 3 year old boy. They'd rather take the kid to play with other kids or swimming. This won't last, sure. But by the time the kid grows up to start making demands, he'll hopefully already be more invested in his current activities and find solace in swimming. I really don't want kids around me growing up to become unsocialized video game geniuses.

justadeveloper2 9y ago
We got rid of cable tv years ago and tv watching dropped off sharply after that. These days we barely turn it on, although the kids play XBox here and there. The iPads they have are a nuisance, though. We excised the worst demon, but Youtube has some pretty vapid crap, too. It's a process. I don't want to entirely cut them off because they do learn from it here and there. It's a tool, not a drug.
- artur_makly 9y ago
  but they are clearly designed to be a drug.. under the guise of a tool: https://www.amazon.com/Hooked-How-Build-Habit-Forming-Products/dp/1591847788 https://www.amazon.com/Hooked-How-Build-Habit-Forming-Produc... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/07/what-youtube-reveals-about-the-toddler-mind/534765/?single_page=true https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/07/what-...
samch 9y ago
We've got a 5yr old and a 3yr old, and we have had a no-TV policy from day one. Our kids, of course, have seen TVs in restaurants and other people's homes, and they have even seen short videos (like a space shuttle launch) on our computer. Because it's not a routine part of their life (or even casually available to them), they don't even think to ask for it. They both have amazing imaginations and can entertain themselves even on long car rides. Instead of TV, we read books, color, play outside, go to the pool or park, build with LEGO - you know, the same stuff we did when we were kids.

artursapek 9y ago

For people like me who think smart phones ruin everything, I suggest looking into Waldorf education for your kids. Smart phones are banned at the school (until high school) and screen-oriented media (phones, TV, movies) are strongly discouraged outside of school. In my opinion the system attracts really interesting adults and kids who still know how to enjoy life the old fashioned way.

mulmen 9y ago
I wonder about the efficacy of banning the devices entirely until a certain point. Is that all that is done or is an attempt made to teach children how to responsibly use the devices so they don't gorge themselves when the ban is lifted?
- rm_-rf_slash 9y ago
  It's for grown-ups like us to be able to remember "Oh yeah, there was a time that I wasn't umbilically tethered to a screen at all times and places, and I got along just fine."
  - mulmen 9y ago
    Will that be the effect on children though? I don't see how prohibition gets us there on its own. It doesn't work for any other addiction.
- artursapek 9y ago
  There is an attempt and they are conscious of the fact that outright bans never work. It's more about preventing media from influencing the childrens' development, especially early on.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    That's great then. As adults were are left to our own devices to figure out how to use new technology. Giving children those mechanisms will serve them well long-term.

gthtjtkt 9y ago

One of the things I'm most thankful for is the fact that I grew up before cell phones were ubiquitous. And I honestly feel awful for children today, because they're all the unwitting subjects of a cruel experiment: What happens when you give people access to everything from birth? Knowing how much self-control it takes for me to resist social media, Reddit, games, etc. I can't even imagine what it's like for children. Many of them are probably being ruined by smartphones, but we won't realize until it's too late, like the kids in China who are all myopic because they spent too much time indoors.

graphitezepp 9y ago

I think it's (it being the socially damaging effects of persistent internet access) is going to get way worse before it gets better. Rising depression rates in youth are happening, but nobody is even talking about this on the 'mainstream', it's just not openly visible yet. Meanwhile the Google's and Facebook's algorithms keep getting more finely tuned . . .

triangleman 9y ago
No worries man, Google is going to diagnose your depression and all but prescribe your Prozac.

justadeveloper2 9y ago

Technology does not care about human values.

mulmen 9y ago
How can this be true? Technology is created exclusively by people. Our values are baked in. Filesystems have a concept of ownership, ask your dog what that means.
- dionidium 9y ago
  I think it's more accurate to say that technology reveals the edges and contours of our values.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    That's a good way of stating it actually, something to think about.
- maxwellfoley 9y ago
  Technology is created mostly by market demands and military needs, this is not at all the same thing as human values.
dredmorbius 9y ago
Neil Postman (Technopoly) and the Heusemanns (Techno-Fix) both advance this concept signficantly.
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Links: Techno-Fix, by Michael and Joyce Huesemann (note spelling): http://www.worldcat.org/title/techno-fix-why-technology-wont-save-us-or-the-environment/oclc/920316302 http://www.worldcat.org/title/techno-fix-why-technology-wont... Technopoly, Neil Postman: http://www.worldcat.org/title/technopoly/oclc/557091816 http://www.worldcat.org/title/technopoly/oclc/557091816
9y ago

mcone 9y ago

This doesn't invalidate the article, but I feel the need to point out that the author lives in a $63 million house with $80,000 worth of TV screens lining the walls. "Anyone in the house can change the screens’ displays to their favorite painting or photograph, in effect personalizing the room (via lighting, temperature, and even decor) to the guest’s own flavor." [0] They certainly didn't do themselves any favors when they built their house. [0] http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/the-biggest/12-unbelievable-facts-about-bill-gates-house/ http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/the-biggest/12-unbelieva...

devmunchies 9y ago
Yes, a "career in tech" and a tech-lifestyle are different things and you can keep them separated. Based on the article and your comment it seems they have more of a problem with the latter.
- nxc18 9y ago
  This is big. I used to work for a manager who didn't even have a computer at home (and no smartphone in 2013). She definitely excelled at keeping tech out of her daily life.
  - provost 9y ago
    > She definitely excelled at keeping tech out of her daily life. I'm curious -- what was she managing? Did she excel in her role?

bronz 9y ago

whenever i see parents struggling with issues like this, i wonder why everyone wanders into parenthood without any forethought, any preparation. its so frustrating to see people take their hands off the wheel and say "well, i have no control over this situation. i hope my kid turns out ok." people have this idea that you cant influence your kids. they send them to school where you have 0% control over what they see and do. parents do prepare when it comes to finances and having a crib, but its the larger picture that is not considered in advance. nobody seems to look at how kids are raised now and think "this is completely broken" and then make a plan to deal with it. children are like any other animal, they need to be raised deliberately. if you spoil a dog, and dont train it, what kind of dog do you wind up with? what kind of people do you end up with when they are sucked into ipads while still in a stroller, and they are sent to schools that are little more than zoos being overseen by air-headed sorority girls? well, what a coincidence, you end up with the poorly adjusted and frustrated kind of person that seems to be more and more common these days. just because society says that everyone has to use social media doesnt mean you have to let your kid use social media. fuck society.

joshribakoff 9y ago
> children are like any other animal Yeah, raising kids is just like owning a gerbil. Exactly.
- imchillyb 9y ago
  @joshribakoff, you're being disingenuous. You left out the important part of that quote: > they need to be raised deliberately. if you spoil a dog, and dont train it, what kind of dog do you wind up with? what kind of people do you end up with when they are sucked into ipads while still in a stroller, and they are sent to schools that are little more than zoos being overseen by air-headed sorority girls? That is succinct, true, and a shame. A shame, just like your hand-picking out a part of a sentence, in order to make the poster sound like an idiot is. He omitted: in that, from his sentence. They are just like animals, in that.... And if you were to be truthful with yourself, you'd admit he's eerily correct in his observation.

kardianos 9y ago

Technology (apps, phones, news) is a tool. If tech distracts from children forming attachment to parents and other people in their lives, then there is a problem full stop. The problem isn't "screen time" or even "tech" directly. Children (or adults) who have poor attachment (disorganized, dismissive, or just lacks practice), they will be at much greater risk.

foodshin 9y ago

While I do appreciate how much is at my fingertips with my phone I also acknowledge how it can insidiously develop unnecessary habits–random home button tapping anyone? Reminds me of this article: https://theroamingmind.com/2017/03/06/social-media-is-the-new-smoking/ https://theroamingmind.com/2017/03/06/social-media-is-the-ne... I also don't want to be quick in demonizing specific apps or companies. I have power over my notification settings which have a huge effect on usage patterns. I've been using Moment (https://inthemoment.io/ https://inthemoment.io/) to help get quick snapshots at my utilization rates. *Edit: grammar

SunnyCanuck 9y ago

Have two kids, 14/12. They've grown up as fully connected kids, have always had access to their own devices, never more than a year or two behind the Big Now. We have never imposed "limits for the sake of limits" on their screen time. I find the idea preposterous, frankly. We have no issue connecting with them, or doing family things together, or etc etc etc. If you can't connect with your kids when they have iPhone in hand, you're not going to be able to connect with your kids even if you're a million miles from the nearest wireless cloud. A lot of discussion around this issue is just tired rehashing of the same complaints every generation over the past 150 years has said about the incoming generation. Some of y'all in here already sound like grandparents, lol.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
>We have no issue connecting with them, or // It's good that all people are exactly the same as you and your kids and that this will therefore work for everyone, isn't it. /s
- SunnyCanuck 9y ago
  I didn't make any such claim. If you'd like to respond to what was actually written, feel free. :)
  - shakna 9y ago
    > If you can't connect with your kids when they have iPhone in hand, you're not going to be able to connect with your kids even if you're a million miles from the nearest wireless cloud. It seems to me, you did make that claim.
    - robertlagrant 9y ago
      They were obviously implying that, yes. Then just backpedalling for some strange reason.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago

mirimir 9y ago

OK, so I'm pretty old. I remember, as a child, assuming that misadventures would be largely forgotten by adulthood. I did many crazy things, but there's no record, except for whatever people remember. OK, maybe a few FBI files buried somewhere in Washington ;) But now? There's a record of everything. Starting before birth, in many cases. First words from smart toys. Social media. Game sites. Sales portals. Files saved by peers. And of course, that plus the exacerbation of psychosocial craziness.

otakucode 9y ago

I got Internet access in 1990 when I was 12 years old. Completely unfettered, unmonitored, unlimited in any way. And I wouldn't trade it for anything. Certainly many, if not most, kids would end up obsessing over social status and gossip and similar things. That has nothing to do with technology and absolutely everything to do with how they deal with their life in general. They're encouraged to avoid taking an intellectual approach to life, to never question or doubt their emotional impulses (indeed taught that those impulses are more trustworthy and 'pure' than conclusions reached intellectually). They're the kids that have always been popular, the bullies and the kids that get DUIs before out of high school. You can't protect them from themselves through any means if you're not willing to address their way of living. And for the kids that aren't destined to live an adolescence of bickering and strife, they will flourish with access to the whole of human knowledge and ability to interact with online communities as an equal, without anyone knowing their age unless they choose to reveal it.

mcone 9y ago
> That has nothing to do with technology and absolutely everything to do with how they deal with their life in general. With all due respect, accessing the internet today is nothing like what it was in 1990. It's like comparing apples to oranges. There's a huge difference between accessing a BBS with a modem and pulling an iPhone out your pocket and pulling up Facebook's newsfeed with a couple taps of your finger. These applications are designed to be addictive, and people's unfettered ability to access them anywhere enables their addictions. The physical and technical barriers that limited your access in 1990 are long gone.
- otakucode 9y ago
  You are right, it is certainly quite a bit different. I'm not sure how material the differences are though. For what it's worth, I had access to BBS' prior to that and had already enjoyed discussing things with adults as an equal before getting a dialup account on a local university mainframe. Everything was done through a shell account, telnet and gopher and similar. I mean, I was still able to quite easily find myself to alt.binaries.tasteless and find extreme porn and all that sort of stuff. Those things like Facebook and such that are designed to be addictive are only addictive to the types of people who find that kind of thing alluring. People who seek social validation whether than evaluating themselves for themselves can not be protected from that tendency. And that is, whether we like it or not, the foundation of modern society. It is an inevitable consequence that such people will spend their lives drowned in neurotic worry. It's not particularly new, and the systems that make engaging in it so easy also make leaving that sort of thinking behind if a person wishes to do so. Ultimately, though, consider the kid. If the kid is a social butterfly, what effect is withholding tech from them going to have? They're going to be made bitter, probably be significantly sidelined in their social circles - the exact place they derive every ounce of their self worth. It wouldn't exactly be a pretty alternative.

flatline 9y ago

> I spent my career at Microsoft trying to imagine what technology could do, and still I wasn’t prepared for smartphones and social media There is a certain irony in her opening statement regarding Microsoft's lack of vision in these two spaces. I think there a have been some unforeseen consequences of these but even when I was a teen, kids would spend hours each day on the phone, or on the computer playing games - some even online - or watching TV. I feel like the fundamental interpersonal dynamic really hasn't changed that much, and I say this as a parent of young kids and a friend of lots of parents with teenagers.

taurath 9y ago

Its slightly ironic to me because I went much more to technology than my peers growing up because I had depression and social problems, not the other way around. I think technology being so mainstream now means that the popular kids can now have a lot more online points (followers, likes, etc) just like in real life. Stuff happening on a screen is very frequently a lot more interesting than whats going on in a suburb - besides, you can't get social likes/currency if you're not online.

squozzer 9y ago

I dunno -- part of the problem might be that we older people have notions of how childhood should be. Entire industries are built around it. And we eagerly declare an emergency when kids decide to stray from the notional path. But maybe a little experience will enlighten (maybe.) I recall some 30-odd years ago how much more fun D&D would be if all of the paper, die-rolling, etc. were automated. This was sometime between the Atari 2600 and Commodore 64. I got my wish, obviously, and then some. And it seemed old-fashioned ways of gaming would forever be consigned to history's dustbin. Only it didn't happen that way. Dice and tabletops are still around, maybe more popular than in my day. So I for one will not surrender to despair, or go blue-nose against modern tech "for the children." Maybe we should just go with the flow.

bllguo 9y ago

The thing is that technology can have an incredibly positive benefit on a kid's life if done right. People espousing schools banning screens and limited screen time strike me as people attached to the status quo. We need to adapt and learn how to raise children around technology.

fzeroracer 9y ago

When I was a teenager living with my parents we used to have a 'devices free' dinner where we'd sit in silence and realize that an awkward teenager had little in common to talk about with his out-of-touch parents. This was the time where conversation was forced and often led to arguments. Though this says more about my upbringing than the use of technology. I think my point is that people see people looking at their phone while in restaurants or people sitting silently and assuming that this void means that the social aspect of the human race is doomed for destruction. You can't force conversation and I've found with friends and even family now that the phone has replaced forced discussions with something else. And you don't always need to fill silence with conversation and nonsense. Similarly I would say there's nothing wrong with lessening the use of technology your kids use, but at the same time you can't just outright cut them and yourself out from it. Instead you should adapt; give your kids positive uses of the TV or their phone. If you try to force devices-free meals your kid may think that bringing up issues of cyberbullying, facebook etc might not be appropriate.

hondo77 9y ago

Billionaire tells us how we should be living our lives. How fortunate we are.

contingencies 9y ago
Wife of billionaire with a track record of 100% failed ventures in mobile tells us all about mobile.

Mz 9y ago

Parents face a bit of a catch-22: Those that have kids young are not all that grown up themselves. Those that have them later have trouble remembering what it is like to be a kid. They each have their upsides and downsides. There is no perfect time to become a parent. But, I think older parents have challenges they didn't expect because being a parent is not like your day job. Even if you do daycare, you get to put it down at the end of the day. A child is responsibility 24/7, even when they are at school or daycare. It is just different in important ways from most other pursuits. Plus, we don't really have an established culture for dealing with all this as a parent. So much of our very widespread tech is too new for us to have some established precedent to confidently draw upon.

thebaer 9y ago

The problem isn't with devices or necessarily "screen time" but with the types of software on these devices. Social media is just 21st century TV -- that's why it's harmful. The platforms that are ad-driven and engineered to be addictive don't help us connect in the same meaningful ways we get offline. So as you might restrict your kids' time watching TV, parents should be aware of the amount of time kids spend on interactive TV. Phones are particularly demonized because their omnipresence encourages more consumption, but really they're just the physical manifestation of the individual problems starting inside the devices. (Aside: I'd really be curious to know the amount of time people spend passively consuming information on social media vs. creating / contributing.) And as an industry I think it's important we find other business models. We build these apps for "stickiness" and "engagement" -- seemingly innocuous metrics that ultimately accumulate to form these larger societal issues.

Noos 9y ago

"As its use has proliferated, so has its effects... ...the interviewer, apparently, asks young people (age 18 to 22 years old) the following: whether men with the (device hidden) are human or not; whether they are losing contact with reality; whether the relation between eyes and ears is changing radically, whether they are psychotic or schizophrenic; whether they are worried about the fate of humanity." Can you guess the device? It's the Sony Walkman, and the time is the 1980s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkman_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkman_effect The arguments aren't new or novel. Hosoda was saying similar in the 1980s, and the Walkman just as easily isolated people in the 1980s as phones do now. yet somehow humanity survived. Remember pagers? They were the device of choice in the 1990s for kids, and they were pilloried just as bad, and even linked to drugs. There's a pretty decent history of people panicking morally about new technologies and their dehumanizing effects, and generally people have adapted more or less fine.

rlglwx 9y ago
But maybe we have lost something also. As a truly social species, do we not lose as a society when barriers are erected to sociability? The literature certainly points to increased social isolation among adults and children. It also makes the point that loneliness is a risk factor in things like dementia, being overweight and a litany of other ailments. I reject the notion that anything new is automatically better and has only net positive effects.
- taurath 9y ago
  I don't think that's the exact argument the parent was making. We've lost just as much from the car, suburbs, and plane travel but you can't do much about them - they're there so we have to adjust.
- auganov 9y ago
  If anything, most of the addictive internet stimuli are social to some degree. I do think there's an interesting analysis to be made of how social connectedness got redistributed though. Both in terms of absolute connectedness and who we're connected to.

lemonycracket 9y ago

A woman that's surprised how much of an impact acting like a man has on her kids. Shocking

noonespecial 9y ago

I think the opposite. Every one of the effects (and more) that she decided happened too early before her kids were "emotionally ready", the high school experience smashed down on me like a meteor strike. A link to my tribe in my pocket making me feel even a bit less than a complete outsider would have been a godsend. Bbs's saved my ass while my parents fretted that "all that time on the computer doing god knows what" would ruin me for life so what do I know?

artur_makly 9y ago

Amen. Im glad im not the only one freaking out about this. a few weeks ago i posted to HN asking for parental advice: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14924520 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14924520 i mostly got "aahh dont worry about it. you are being hysterical" ... i see it all around me (even in 2nd world countries like Argentina - where im an expat ). Its quickly deteriorating the fabric of our society. When I see families go out together for dinner ( 90% of them are ALL on their phones ) .. Single fathers with their sons.. both on phones.. At a singles-night at a bar.. all on phones instagramming hard. Their little brains are being hardwired to the digital COCA-COLA..and when the water comes around they look at you like "why drink that shit?!" When he grows up.. no laptop at school for him: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret-don-t-take-notes-with-a-laptop/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret... in fact our family is seriously thinking of moving to Patagonia, just to re-calibrate with natural wavelengths.

hycaria 9y ago
When and how do one come to think that it is a good thing to let kids watch YT videos ? I used to wonder this but I think now I know why. I barely watch any myself so I really don't get the hype people seem to have for videos. But my boyfriend watches more YT than I do, and follows channels I don't get the point of. That's actually the moment I realized my disinterest for browsing channels and watching videos was maybe not so common after all. Also, what's the problem with banning it altogether ? I don't see one, other than the disapointment that compromise didn't work. But of course a 5yo can't have the self control some people never even reach during their lifetimes anyways.

alexashka 9y ago

I've found that the more competent and as a result confident the parents, the less they micro-manage their kids. They don't feel the need to send them to private schools, have them be A students, get into universities, spend less time on their phone etc etc etc. That's just insecure, overbearing parents. There's some subtle irony in the same person who is part of a foundation saving kids in Africa, worrying about phone use. You'd think she'd have a greater perspective on these things.

pnathan 9y ago

Politely, this is not a new problem. Nor is it untypical for the upper crust to have issues with their kids, if myths and tales from earlier times are to be believed. I can confidently say that screen addiction is kind of a thing for many kids. They can't bear to be without it. I notice my baby stares at the glowing screens, the phones, the computers. He also stares at fires. Brightness is attractive, apparently. But something my wife and I are very set about: Mr. Baby will have to be able to bear being without a phone. Not that we'll be hovering or super limiting, but we expect Mr. Baby to be able to psychologically handle not having a phone glued to himself at all waking hours, and we will adjust our own phone usage if it becomes apparent we have issues. Most entertainment and many non-entertainment phone apps are designed to be attention-grabbing machines, and that's worrisome. Kids don't have that armor to be able to drop out into a focus world. It is a very hot media, by McLuhan's classification, and I think that's worrisome. Anyway. Unexpected effects happen, we're spinning faster than we ever have, and we have to ride the wave.

l33tbro 9y ago
The lack of awe is what surprises me. Just how quickly we take each breakthrough for granted. Sure, we're spinning faster and faster, as you say. But sometimes I think it's actually the FOMO mechanism built into social media that is keeping us unimpressed by the amazing technology powering it. Kind of a cruel joke really.
- pnathan 9y ago
  > The lack of awe is what surprises me. Just how quickly we take each breakthrough for granted. That's just your perspective and the people you deal with. Many people I know over 40 are amazed. Perspective.... A lot of the technology is respun other technology, and that does take the luster off. Personally I think a lot of the social media stuff is bunk, particularly the bits that prioritize zero-content fluff. But things like Mastodon, Hacker News, or Wordpress (remember twitter was microblogging) have spawned deep and thoughtful engagement with the world and others.

artur_makly 9y ago

i think this Android app will do the trick for kids under 15: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zerodesktop.appdetox.qualitytime&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zerodeskto... and this one for IOS: TeenSafe https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/teensafe-parental-control/id1066075344?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/teensafe-parental-control/id...

KirinDave 9y ago

I think maybe mobile tech is starting to go through it's 90's-era-children's-tv-style "Oh my god nearly everything we've made is a manipulative commercial designed to get an economic outcome without regard for the consequences to the kids" moment. And that's good. Because while kids are much more susceptible to the attention-seeking games mobile app designers play, they are by no means ineffective on adults.

dharma1 9y ago

two kids, 2 and 7. They have a hard time having dinner without watching something on iPad. Otherwise the 2 year old doesn't use technology aside from TV, 7 year old has 1 hour of iPad time most days. I like to give them some exposure to tech but much of it so addictive, makes me think how it must affect reward pathways in a maturing brain

j_s 9y ago

I don't think it was tech specifically as much as the love of tech. I appreciate the reminder to be mindful for my own family's sake!

fullshark 9y ago

I agree with the sentiment of this, but this is pretty light.

hiisukun 9y ago

When I was growing up, I used to read quite a lot. I wasn't allowed to bring my book to the dinner table - no matter how suspenseful the chapter or how fascinating the subject. Of course my childhood wasn't perfect; every night wasn't a talkative social family dinner. I appreciated the rule even back then, though I wanted to read my book it was easy to see that me doing so was taking something away from the other people at the table. A little intangible, but quite clear. I can't help but wonder if in the many countries & cultures, and across many generations, what various expectations there are for family time together, and what challenges and barriers were in the way. "No lens polishing at the dinner table!" might have been said to some young astronomer hundreds of years ago. Mobile phones are a great source of information (something I've been fascinated with my whole life), but sometimes seem to replace rather than supplement social interactions. While I can see why people would want a "tech free dinner", I've also had the joy of a "facetime dinner" with friend's grandchildren who live far away. It was a wonderful and natural thing for the child involved, because it added to the social harmony, rather than isolating parts of it.

artur_makly 9y ago

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/07/what-youtube-reveals-about-the-toddler-mind/534765/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/07/what-...

peterburkimsher 9y ago

"eighth-graders who use social media more than 10 hours a week are 56 percent more likely to say they’re unhappy than peers who use it less" But is that a causal relationship? Are people unhappy first, so they therefore go on Facebook to seek help? Does taking away that escape route make it worse? Correlation does not imply causation.

luckydude 9y ago

I'm a retired geek but I do tractor work, I just pulled a 14 hour day and I'm having some wine so salt heavily. In my opinion, the best thing you can do with kids is create boredom. If they have access to a shop, or some lumber, they will start to build stuff. If kids are bored and they turn that into building, that's the first step towards getting into a good undergrad school. Building stuff is good. The hard part, as parents, is creating that boredom. It's so easy to give them the video game babysitter. I haven't done well at that. I wish I had some magic statement that made that part easy but that part is super super hard. The other thing I'd say about kids, and I hate this, really hate this, is private school. It's better. My kids went and were on track to go to Los Gatos High School which is a pretty decent school. For various reasons we found kirby.org and both of my kids go there and it's a shit ton better. I hate private schools, I think kids should experience the full range of people, not just the rich kids that get into private schools, but wow, the private school was so much better. So much better. Hugely better. My younger son who hates that school, it's a nerd school and he's a jock, came to me and said "yeah, I want to go there, it's better than Los Gatos". My older kid is applying to schools and he has a shot at the ivys, that's all the private school. I'm ashamed to admit that I like private schools, but wow, have they been good for my kids.

bb611 9y ago
> In my opinion, the best thing you can do with kids is create boredom. If they have access to a shop, or some lumber, they will start to build stuff. As a kid I was constantly bored, this strategy was deeply ineffective on me. I did grow into it as an adult, but it took a long time. In short, YMMV.
- Can_Not 9y ago
  Did you have have available creative outlets though, like a workshop?
  - bb611 9y ago
    Yes, my point was that I had preconditions and yet didn't reach the expected outcome. Interestingly enough, my twin brother did. Kids are complicated and non-deterministic.

simplexion 9y ago

How does a child having a computer exclude them from learning empathy? Do teenagers that are more likely to be depressed use social media more? There are so many problems with this article.

drdeadringer 9y ago

> I probably would have waited longer before putting a computer in my children’s pockets A part of me wonders how this consideration might stunt the child for "the near future to come" in a societal context. Sure, we could want our children to have similar experiences to our own. However, technology and at least in part related society advances increase at ever faster speeds. My grandfather could get a job by walking down the street and saying "hello" to a shopkeeper. Me? Not going to happen; "apply online" and maybe I'll get an automated, maybe even kind, rejection email about "skills" or "fit". My children? Some AI could automatically filter them in or out of internships and the like. What could a totally blank ghost town of lifetime data prior to 5, 10, or 15 years old do to someone in a completely, totally, all-encompassing digital age? Nevermind what this would mean for somebody running for political office.

jansho 9y ago

"The most important thing we've learned, So far as children are concerned, Is never, NEVER, NEVER let Them near your television set -- Or better still, just don't install The idiotic thing at all. In almost every house we've been, We've watched them gaping at the screen. They loll and slop and lounge about, And stare until their eyes pop out. (Last week in someone's place we saw A dozen eyeballs on the floor.) They sit and stare and stare and sit Until they're hypnotised by it, Until they're absolutely drunk With all that shocking ghastly junk. Oh yes, we know it keeps them still, They don't climb out the window sill, They never fight or kick or punch, They leave you free to cook the lunch And wash the dishes in the sink -- But did you ever stop to think, To wonder just exactly what This does to your beloved tot? IT ROTS THE SENSE IN THE HEAD! IT KILLS IMAGINATION DEAD! IT CLOGS AND CLUTTERS UP THE MIND! IT MAKES A CHILD SO DULL AND BLIND HE CAN NO LONGER UNDERSTAND A FANTASY, A FAIRYLAND! HIS BRAIN BECOMES AS SOFT AS CHEESE! HIS POWERS OF THINKING RUST AND FREEZE! HE CANNOT THINK -- HE ONLY SEES! 'All right!' you'll cry. 'All right!' you'll say, 'But if we take the set away, What shall we do to entertain Our darling children? Please explain!' We'll answer this by asking you, 'What used the darling ones to do? 'How used they keep themselves contented Before this monster was invented?' Have you forgotten? Don't you know? We'll say it very loud and slow: THEY ... USED ... TO ... READ! They'd READ and READ, AND READ and READ, and then proceed To READ some more. Great Scott! Gadzooks! One half their lives was reading books! The nursery shelves held books galore! Books cluttered up the nursery floor! And in the bedroom, by the bed, More books were waiting to be read! Such wondrous, fine, fantastic tales Of dragons, gypsies, queens, and whales And treasure isles, and distant shores Where smugglers rowed with muffled oars, And pirates wearing purple pants, And sailing ships and elephants, And cannibals crouching 'round the pot, Stirring away at something hot. (It smells so good, what can it be? Good gracious, it's Penelope.) The younger ones had Beatrix Potter With Mr. Tod, the dirty rotter, And Squirrel Nutkin, Pigling Bland, And Mrs. Tiggy-Winkle and- Just How The Camel Got His Hump, And How the Monkey Lost His Rump, And Mr. Toad, and bless my soul, There's Mr. Rat and Mr. Mole- Oh, books, what books they used to know, Those children living long ago! So please, oh please, we beg, we pray, Go throw your TV set away, And in its place you can install A lovely bookshelf on the wall. Then fill the shelves with lots of books, Ignoring all the dirty looks, The screams and yells, the bites and kicks, And children hitting you with sticks- Fear not, because we promise you That, in about a week or two Of having nothing else to do, They'll now begin to feel the need Of having something to read. And once they start -- oh boy, oh boy! You watch the slowly growing joy That fills their hearts. They'll grow so keen They'll wonder what they'd ever seen In that ridiculous machine, That nauseating, foul, unclean, Repulsive television screen! And later, each and every kid Will love you more for what you did." -- Roald Dahl died in 1990, I wonder what he would think about smartphones :)

spacemanmatt 9y ago

I grew up glued to screens since I was 11. My parents hated it, but my hobby became my career and I became a confident and social individual despite my constant interest in computers. Now, I serve dinner in front of a movie/TV sometimes, and don't police my kids' phone usage at the table. I do police other behavior, and checking out in the presence of others isn't acceptable. They try to become little addicts (they're young) but the pressure to engage locally wins often enough. If there's nothing to talk about, I don't mind if they get online. It generally takes all day to exhaust our conversations like that, though.

adam_seeliger 9y ago

What a whining bitch.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

untilHellbanned 9y ago

virtue signaling

jknz 9y ago

1B startup idea: equip every primary/secondary/high schools with walls that block every cellular signals.

nvarsj 9y ago

I'm always struck by the arrogance of parents. It never changes through the ages. Why do you think you know what's best for your kids? Do you really have the insight and experience from a single lifetime's perspective to know what's best for kids? Especially striking are the programmers who grew up on technology. Literally spent all day on a computer as a kid, and now have high paying jobs, and happy lives. And then they say "no tech in the house!" - like it is some bad thing. It's almost like a cult, there is a striking lack of rationality. It's like that protestant ethic - if it feels good, it must be bad. I have two kids, and I do limit screen time to an extent. But I don't go and brag like I know this is the best thing for them. I have very mixed feelings about it. Certainly when my kids are teenagers, I think an attempt to control them is just going to end up bad for everyone involved.

robertlagrant 9y ago
No one is bragging. They are just talking. And the point isn't that no kid can cope with massive exposure to technology, it's that now, all kids have access to it. A kid from the 90s who grew up on it was probably pretty smart to be able to access that stuff, and could potentially cope better with it than another kid (although you can have very poor social development and still get paid a lot, so the job thing doesn't really prove anything) - now, all kids have access, if their parents let them. I'm not saying it's bad, necessarily. I'm just concerned by the lack of logic in a lot of these pro-technology responses.

tokeovertheline 9y ago

Most people can't think one step ahead. Let alone multiple steps....losers at chess....This has been screwing up humanity for millenia, accelerated with the industrial/digital onslaught. Thanks for the tech and enjoy your zombie kids.