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Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud
- nodesocket 9y agoUnfortunately Martin was made a scapegoat and they made an example out of him because of his arrogance and vocal personality. How did the executives that caused the financial crisis of 2008 get off completely free but a relatively tiny hedge fund manager get the book thrown at him? This was a witch hunt, no doubt about it.
- whipoodle 9y agoI agree, but only in the sense that more of them should be in jail.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- calafrax 9y agoGreat. They convicted one low level autistic freak with no connections over a couple million dollars. Brave day for justice. What about the daughter of a senator who is the CEO of the company that quadrupled the price of epipens? Yeah, right, mission accomplished, nothing to see there.
- ptr_void 9y agoHe is live-streaming right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvArpDQHf-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvArpDQHf-Y
- fmihaila 9y agoWatching it right now and it's fascinating. He has just been explaining to a Daily News reporter why his company charges what it charges for the various drugs it sells. More people should watch this before they make up their mind. It's only a live stream now, I hope it's going to stay on YT after it's done. (They're now arguing about what he considers distorted coverage of him in the press.)
- velobro 9y agoOh give me a break. The guy comes off as charasmatic in a YouTube video so you want to ignore his act of fraud? (Yes, I realize raising drug prices isn't illegal. That isn't what he was convicted for) You know who else was charasmatic and could get people to like him in light of all his actions? Adolf Hitler.
- ptr_void 9y agoDing ding ding ding [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
- llcoolv 9y agoThis really reminds me of "The stranger" by Albert Camus.
- Unbeliever69 9y agoDid the sun get in someone's eyes?
- aphextron 9y ago>“Rarely has a white-collar criminal defendant evoked hatred and scorn from public in the way Shkreli has. Shkreli’s willingness to lie, step on people, flaunt his wealth and look down on others made him a villain that many wanted to see go down in flames,” said James Goodnow, an attorney with Fennemore Craig, a corporate defense firm. This attitude is just disgusting, and indicative of precisely what has gone wrong with our society. "White collar" criminals who steal millions are deserving of leniency and mercy. But the "thug" who stole $20 from a 7/11 deserves 20 years.
- sintaxi 9y agoWell if the thug pointed a loaded gun the the clerks face for 20 bills I would say yes.
- balls187 9y ago> Prosecutors argued that Shkreli lied to investors in two hedge funds ... according to prosecutors. If you were to scrutinize what founders of darling startups said to investors, how many "inconsistencies" would you find?
- nsnick 9y agoHis mistake was taking money from rich people. If he had stuck to stealing from and killing poor people, nothing would have happened to him.
- blizkreeg 9y agoI have no sympathy for him as he appears to have lied to his investors and moved money around, which seems to be outside the law. Raising the price of a drug though, as long as he can get away with it, is no crime, no matter how big the increase. This makes me question though, did he raise the price of Daraprim so he could return money to the investors of his hedge fund?? If so, his entire defense (from his videos) of raising the price to meet his fiduciary duties to Turing's investors falls flat.
- fmihaila 9y agoFor those who can access it, this NYT article has more detail: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/business/dealbook/martin-shkreli-guilty.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/business/dealbook/martin-... (Edit: I posted this comment while the WaPo article had only a few paragraphs; it's now fully fledged.)
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- jedberg 9y agoI understand that what he did was morally abhorrent, but I don't understand why it was illegal? Maybe a lawyer can give a quick summaray?
- watty 9y agoDid you read the article? > Prosecutors argued that Shkreli lied to investors in two hedge funds and the pharmaceutical company Retrophin, all of which he founded. Shkreli told investors he graduated from Columbia University, that his hedge fund was large and profitable, and that he had hired an auditor, they said. These were all lies, according to prosecutors.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- EnFinlay 9y agoHe's not charged with anything related to the drug price increases.
- mattbierner 9y agoThis trial was not about him raising drug prices but rather about how he deceived investors. He lied to them and used illegal business practices to cover things up
- sehugg 9y ago"He lost everything in MSMB Capital after a bad trade in February 2011, and hid that fact, sending investors statements for more than a year and a half showing strong returns — even though the fund didn’t trade after that month, and had no assets."
- Clubber 9y agoI use to hate this guy, then I saw the Vice interview on him. It was nice to see his side of the story. I don't know much about this case in particular. It was kinda sleazy to see the congress question him about his price increases when they knew damn well it was perfectly legal and they haven't done anything to stop it. Shkreli seems to be trying to expose this hypocrisy, but the news loves their stories. Vice interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PCb9mnrU1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PCb9mnrU1g
- wfunction 9y ago> It was kinda sleazy to see the congress question him about his price increases when they knew damn well it was perfectly legal and they haven't done anything to stop it. Do you have any suggestions on how what exactly they should've done? Passed a law that says "you cannot increase the price of a drug beyond 5x" or something?
- Clubber 9y agoJust to throw something out there to start, I would limit price hikes over time, say 10% a year. I'm open to any alternatives.
- wfunction 9y agoWithout even any mention of what the manufacturer can do to cover cost increases? You really think it can be so simple?
- Clubber 9y agoI would suspect the vast majority of the cost of drugs is R&D, including the FDA approval process. They can factor that in on initial cost when they release the drug. The 10% is only for increases. Hopefully instead of someone buying a drug that has already been released won't buy it because they can jack up the price 5000%. They would have to factor in the 10% rule when purchasing. Unfortunately this might lead to expensive release costs, but that already happens. It might not be perfect, but 6000% increases because more yachts is a hell of a lot worse.
- setra 9y agoNote that this does not have anything to do with his pricing of pharmaceuticals. From a different article: "Prosecutors say Shkreli looted his drug company to pay back investors in two failed hedge funds he ran. The defense says investors got their original investments back and even made hefty profits."
- loeg 9y agoIn theory it had nothing to do with it, although it's not clear that the prosecution would have gone after him without that negative attention. Also, it had an effect on the juror pool.
- zokier 9y agoWas it the nazis or soviets (or both) who made effectively everyone criminal so that they could then persecute them at will?
- beagle3 9y agoIt's almost every country these days, see e.g. https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229 https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp... - which has a slightly clickbaity title, but worrying content. But it seems Shkreli's transgressions are not of the "three felonies before breakfast" variety, but rather things that are indeed often prosecuted (though, it should be noted, as everyone wronged was made whole, it is likely that he would not have been prosecuted if he had not been in the media spotlight as a villain; other remarks here mentioned that the founding of Fedex had a similar fraud committed, for example).
- sqeaky 9y agoPutting people like Shkreli into prison for a long time is vital to the long term stability of society. I wish money didn't buy options to avoid prison and I wish that people with his behaviors didn't so often accrue large amounts of money.
- cloakandswagger 9y agoCan you elaborate? Who did Shkreli hurt here and how?
- hellofunk 9y agoOne could argue that he hurt a lot of sick people by making it very difficult or impossible for them to afford the hundreds of percent price increases he laid upon the drugs he took control over. Edit: [0] "... it says that the drug is available for free to people with deep financial need. But Dr. Aberg has watched her patients have to "jump through the hoops" to get it. Patients have to prove both financial need and health status, something that's difficult to focus on when their lives are in danger. In June, one of her patients gave up on the process. The patient switched therapies, only to suffer a negative side effect." [0] http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/25/news/economy/daraprim-aids-drug-high-price/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/25/news/economy/daraprim-aids-d...
- apk-d 9y agoAre there any actual cases of people saying they can't afford the drug any more?
- hellofunk 9y agoI've read plenty of reports over the last year of people who had great difficulty getting the drug, even though it was supposedly free. I posted one such article elsewhere in this thread.
- pyroinferno 9y agoYou have no clue what this court case was about, do you?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- forkLding 9y agoFor those who haven't read the article, Martin is being charged on cheating his investors, he himself admits to his "broomsticks", not the immoral arguments he was previously known for. Also that aside, he was quite a easy target.
- MistahKoala 9y agoI get the impression he isn't so much malevolent in his actions, rather he behaves as a libertine and someone who takes the view that the end justify the means.
- emodendroket 9y agoOK, so he's just indifferent to the harm caused by his actions, rather than a cackling sadist. So what?
- discombobulate 9y agoI quite like Martin. I talked to him a few time on YouTube, whilst he was live streaming. He's whip-smart & knowledgeable. He does, however, have a couple of major flaws. 1) He trolls. Hard. 2) It seems he lies. Which I picked up from a previous news article. (He claimed to have ~$50mm under management @ his previous hedge fund. It was more like $1.6mm. Something like that). I can forgive the trolling. It's over the top, IMO. But it is what it is. The lying is another kettle of fish. You can't go around bullshitting ppl. &, as he found out, you can't go around bullshitting investors. I think he loves money too much. The thought of being poor may have pushed him to do something stupid (ultimately his call!). I hope he doesn't have too hard a time in jail. Losing his fortune (I believe he loses his shares from Retrophin. ~$65mm. That's already a punishment. Edit: I don't know why I'm being downvoted. I'm being honest. Fuck you people, frankly.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Guncat12 9y agoThe reason you like Martin is because you are young and naive and you wish you had his life. This is further evidenced by your very black-and-white, idealistic "lying is the worst thing a person can do" mentality. I can only hope then when you grow older, you will realize how ridiculous your current way of thinking is. > Edit: I don't know why I'm being downvoted. I'm being honest. Fuck you people, frankly. This is exactly the response that I would expect from a young person like you when they face criticism. Haters gonna hate, am I right?
- aphextron 9y ago>I quite like Martin. I talked to him a few time on YouTube, whilst he was live streaming. He's a sociopath, of course you liked him. That's what those kind of people do. Build confidence and exploit people.
- surrey-fringe 9y agoNice armchair psychology. Do you have more?
- defen 9y agoI'd like someone to do a reading of Martin Shkreli as "satirist of neoliberalism", and suggest that the reason so many people hate him so much is that he's a scapegoat for our collective feelings of guilt. Can anyone offer a valid critique of his raising the price of Daraprim, within the frame of neoliberalism, that doesn't just reduce to "that guy's a real jerk!"?
- CalChris 9y agoBefore we did that we'd have to agree on what neoliberalism is. One definition cited by Wikipedia is: > Neoliberal theory argues that a free market will allow efficiency, economic growth, income distribution, and technological progress to occur. Any state intervention to encourage these phenomena will worsen economic performance. Another is that neoliberalism is the relitigation of the New Deal. I like the second more operational definition since it doesn't ignore history.
- zokier 9y agoGotta love the narrative here. Jack up the medicine price and become americas most hated for a moment by general behavior.. that's fine. Make a fool of couple of hedge fund investors.. oh boy, now you fucked up
- 0xbear 9y agoI think it's fair to say that Shkreli would be left to his own devices had he not shown the audacity to charge what the market will bear. Meanwhile another person who similarly jacked up the price of a lifesaving drug beyond what many could afford, Heather Bresch, received no negative legal attention whatsoever. Ever wonder why? Because her dad is Joe Manchin. The swamp needs draining so bad.
- paulgb 9y agoBumping the price of a drug is not illegal. Shkreli was found guilty for fraud unrelated to the drug price hike.
- 0xbear 9y agoDid I say otherwise? Is there any doubt in your mind as to why they went after him though? How many other hedge fund managers do you know of that have ever seen the inside of a jail cell?
- singhrac 9y agoLots! Raj Rajaratnam, Gabriel & Marco Bitran, Florian Homm, Paul Moore IV, Michael Murphy, Jeffrey Toft, Chad Sloat, etc. I admit to knowing none of the details in any of these cases, I just googled "hedge fund managers in jail".
- paulgb 9y agoYou didn't say otherwise, but it seems to explain why he was prosecuted while Bresch was not.
- 0xbear 9y agoNot why he was prosecuted. Why he was even considered for prosecution in the first place. Some of the investors "harmed" by Shkreli admitted on the stand that their investments with him were the best they've ever made. Dude is also obviously smart and talented, and while he might have bent the rules here and there, as far as I can tell no harm has come to anyone in the end. So what this amounts to is little more than a witch hunt. The "aggrieved" party has made a lot of money. But my comment was more about a peculiar difference in the treatment of two people in similar circumstances based seemingly on whether their relatives are high ranking government officials. Surely this should have seen some more scrutiny from the "free" press, no?
- roel_v 9y agoSo, are the gonna sell off his stuff and more in particular, is the Wu Tang album coming up for sale?
- sp527 9y agoThe government and media couldn't have asked for a better outcome. The actual criminals on Wall Street and in Big Pharma, who had the foresight to line the right pockets, go ignored and the outsider who drew the ire of the public - for a decidedly amoral business decision with poor optics - is very publicly castigated. It's a win all around for a monumentally corrupt establishment, which has once again deferred meaningful scrutiny. Shkreli made the mistake of setting himself up as the perfect loudmouthed, flamboyant patsy.
- tompetry 9y agoDidn't think of it this way. So true.
- Caprinicus 9y ago>Shkreli made the mistake of setting himself up as the perfect loudmouthed, flamboyant patsy. It's not clear that he would consider that a mistake
- jjxw 9y agoThere seems to be a misconception regarding what Shkreli was found guilty of. The legal case here has very little to do with the pharmaceutical pricing controversy - it is a separate case based on a separate hedge fund that he managed. The gist of it is that he took people's money to start a hedge fund, lied to investors that the fund was doing fine when the hedge fund went belly up, but ended up returning everyone's money plus a sizable return when his separate pharmaceutical venture went well. When fraud happens those affected don't usually get their money back much less a return on that money. However, it's pretty clear what he did is also fraud (false documents, not returning people's money when they asked for it) even if the fact that investors came out better makes the plaintiffs less sympathetic.
- whipoodle 9y agoYeah, that is definitely fraud. Though as a fraud victim you can't really ask for a better outcome.
- downandout 9y ago>When fraud happens those affected don't usually get their money back much less a return on that money. That will be a footnote at sentencing. Federal sentencing is generally based on intended or actual loss, whichever is greater. Further, the judge is allowed to take into account intended losses from his entire course of conduct, not just the intended losses from the specific counts on which he was found guilty. In other words, the fact that his investors lost no actual money will have little bearing on his sentence. I don't know what the actual amount he took in was, but he will be sentenced for a multimillion dollar fraud scheme, and because he went to trial and lost, he'll get nowhere near the minimum. The government likes to punish people for making them expend the time and effort of a trial (in 2012, 97% of federal cases ended with a guilty plea instead of a trial [1]). He's probably looking at 5 years at best. [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443589304577637610097206808 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443589304577637...
- artursapek 9y agoIt will be interesting to see the sentence. He definitely seems to disagree with you: https://twitter.com/SamTheManTP/status/893552820548403201 https://twitter.com/SamTheManTP/status/893552820548403201 Q: How much time do you likely face? Shkreli: Uh I'm guessing none on the short side 6 months long side
- grizzles 9y agoI find it hard to believe that he got a fair trial this time around. He was already tried and found guilty in a trial by media a few years back. This investigation & prosecution are a direct result of his legal actions that didn't play well politically. BOTH presidential candidates condemned him. To me it's sad. The sacrificial lambing of Shkreli instead of lawmakers addressing the underlying problem of costly pharma is probably the most Venezuela thing I've ever seen happen in the US. They made the system, he's just trying to prosper ffs.
- norikki 9y agoCan we please have a conversation on the abuse of Federal plea bargains and insanely high sentencing guidelines? Thousands of Americans every year plead guilty in federal court to crimes they did not commit because they face insanely high prison terms if convicted. Often Federal sentences are several times longer than ones in state courts for the exact same crimes.
- michrassena 9y agoI've found him to be an interesting character, a potent symbol of the greed, arrogance, and indifference of the pharmaceutical industry. A PR firm couldn't have invented a better villain, young, brash, flouting decorum by his openly fleecing the public. He was the perfect scapegoat. I think we all know nothing has changed, and his conviction today has no relationship to his role as CEO, but I wonder if public opinion of the industry will improve, as if the bad apple is rooted out.
- thrillgore 9y agoOkay real talk -- who's gonna get that Wu-Tang album he has?
- Sangermaine 9y ago"It's not always about lying! Sometimes it's about being cruel to strangers just to enjoy their suffering!"
- brandonhsiao 9y agoHow is that "being cruel to strangers just to enjoy their suffering"? Also, you've commented in this thread about six times now with snarky remarks, unsubstantiated vitriol, and essentially "Martin Shkreli is a monster." Whether or not there's good reason to dislike him, I think you've successfully made your point.
- rhcom2 9y ago>I think one of the most famous "troll" things he did was buy the master Wu-Tang album and threaten to destroy it so no one could ever hear the album. How is that not exactly "being cruel to strangers just to enjoy their suffering"?
- sillysaurus3 9y agoBecause it's a joke. Punish someone for their actions, not their words.
- vonkow 9y agoAh, the #1 go to defence for terrible people when they get called out for their actions, "it's just a joke, I was just kidding, don't be so sensitive."
- sillysaurus3 9y agoYou are way too sensitive though. The virtue signaling is through the roof. All you're doing here is "trying to make sure a terrible person gets their comeuppance." Like really? You've never pulled a prank in your life? I notice you and a lot of people like you have around 100-500 karma. I wonder if it's just newbies trying to find some way of differentiating themselves. Virtue signaling is in fashion, so it makes sense.
- eurticket 9y agohand over the wutang
- exception_e 9y agoMy thoughts exactly. This is very important.
- petrikapu 9y agoI hope he gets HIV in prison
- sctb 9y agoPlease don't violate the guidelines by posting uncivilly like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- samgranieri 9y agolol
- ringaroundthetx 9y agoIn the federal venue, can he appeal the securities counts in isolation of the things he was found not guilty of? Conspiracy charges are always weak, if you can afford a constitutional law to argue on expression grounds. Has he expressed interest in appealing?
- boskonyc 9y agohttps://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/04/martin-shkreli-on-verdict-this-was-a-witch-hunt-of-epic-proportions.html https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/04/martin-shkreli-on-verd...
- stevenh 9y agoI wish people would stop using the word "modulo" like this.
- ams6110 9y agoIt can mean "except for differences accounted for by" which I think is correct here. http://www.wordnik.com/words/modulo http://www.wordnik.com/words/modulo
- dang 9y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14933036 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14933036 and marked it off-topic.
- poisonarena 9y agoI entered a livestream question session with this clown and asked him his opinion on CRSPR tech and he replied "It has not future because 'it doesn't work'".. Thats when I knew he was full of crap
- rajacombinator 9y agoJail time for Goldman/JPM execs: 0 and counting ...
- Alaura 9y agoSound's like a good thing tho, i mean we have seen his history and his past, a lot of things kinda conspired to see this coming in the end.
- kabdib 9y agoA data point about medication: I just paid for a pair of EpiPens; the generic version was $337 a pair (last I checked, the non-generic version was over $600). I have pretty good health insurance, so I didn't pay that much myself, but my employer paid the rest. As a baseline, I had the pharmacist look up the equivalent medication for use with a syringe; a ten dose bottle was $5.99. I know, not the same thing. But this confirmed what I'd suspected for years. I have to assume that the EpiPen delivery mechanism, which is really what we're paying for, is well debugged and optimized and essentially just a matter of ordering parts and assembling them; it would be mind boggling to have a COGs of more than a few dollars, or any significant conversion costs. The cost of the actual medication that the pens contain is apparently about sixty cents on top of that. Mylan is printing money. Icing on the cake: The pens expire after a year. But you typically can't get pens that last that long, the ones I got already have a few months on them and will have to be replaced before the next school year ends or my son won't be able to attend class (the school is not allowed to administer "expired" medication). This is an utter and corrupt racket. I'm writing my congressional representatives and senators. Again.
- artursapek 9y ago> This is an utter and corrupt racket. I'm writing my congressional representatives and senators. Again. I agree with what you wrote, but they're going to do fuck-all about it.
- mirimir 9y agoThe pharmaceutical industry spends heavily on lobbyists. Only AARP has much of a chance countering them.
- dingo_bat 9y agoSo when are you planning to manufacture an equivalent device at lower price? Just sell it for $99, you'll crush Mylan and still earn 10x margins.
- par 9y ago
- slap_shot 9y agoFWIW, Shkreli has said several times on his YouTube channel that he predicted he was serve 2 years and be done. From what I've heard, he'll be sentenced 3-5 and and serve 80% with good behavior. He had an excellent defense and this was probably known from the beginning. Interestingly, I don't think he pretends that what he did was right - it just understood it was a means to an end: two years in white collar "prison" for 30-70MM when he had less than $1,000 in the bank and owed creditors north of 1MM.
- donatj 9y agoI'm sure it's been said but was it ever possible for him to get a fair trial?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- accountyaccount 9y agoWait wait wait, he committed fraud... but everyone he defrauded actually ended up getting a 3X return on their investment because he just took money from another one of his ventures? I mean, illegal sure, but seems like he still held up his end of the bargain.
- abvdasker 9y agoThe thing about the law is that it largely exists as a deterrent for bad behavior, particularly behavior that causes systemic issues when it becomes widespread. Just because in this instance the parties being misled didn't lose their investments doesn't mean that the next time someone like Shkreli attempts this kind of scheme it won't end in disaster for the people he defrauds. It's kind-of like a speed limit. Sure, maybe you didn't get in an accident doing 100 in a 50 but you sure as hell deserve a ticket because if everyone did it the roads would become totally unsafe.
- accountyaccount 9y agoSure, but if you get a ticket for doing 100 in a 50 you might be out a few hundred bucks. If you hit someone while doing 100 in a 50 you'll be in jail. Outcomes still matter.
- totalZero 9y agoWe won't know if the outcome affected the punishment until he's sentenced, but it's likely to be the case here too.
- ajarmst 9y agoIt's almost like you shouldn't trust people with narcissistic personality disorder with your money or nuclear launch codes.
- bobsgame 9y ago"Martin Shkreli is found innocent of 5/8 security fraud charges."
- circadiam 9y agoI first met Martin over a skype call and he was very humble—his identity online is just a brand. 2 years later, I stumbled into him again and asked him for advice on affording a cancer drug for a relative. He helped me find the charities and also introduced me to a contact at the pharma company. The internet prefers headlines over reality.
- sattoshi 9y agoMy experience matches yours. Martin is very nice person who just enjoys attention. He didn't deserve this. Big Pharma deserves way worse though.
- azm1 9y agoWhy would this guy should go to prison when no one(except one guy in us) went to prison after the massive financial crisis in 2008?I know its naive/rhetorical question but thinking about it, its crazy to me.He did no financial harm too.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- dayaz36 9y agoAlthough technically true, the title is a bit misleading. He was acquitted from 5 of the 8 counts he was convicted of. Of the 8 counts, count 7 carried the biggest wait. This was in regards to the Retrophin securities fraud accusation where he was accused of a ponzi scheme amounting to over $10M. This was the only thing that would of brought him significant jail time but he was found not guilty. Count 7 carried more wait than all the other counts combined and was the heart of the case against him. Right now the case has gone from a felony to basically a parking ticket. All the articles talking about "facing 20 years" are sensationalist nonsense. That is a theoretical maximum. He will most likely receive NO jail time and will probably just have to pay a small fee. Of course you will not get any of this context from all the sensationalist headlines out there like "MARTIN SHKRELI FOUND GUILTY! FACING 20 YEARS PRISON SENTENCE!"...
- jonplackett 9y agoDoes anyone know if they were already in the process of prosecuting him for this or is it a way to get him on something in response to him buying and hiking he prices of aids drugs, since that wasn't actually illegal.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- throwawaymanbot 9y agoNo one has been charged with wrecking the worlds economy in 2008. Sometimes I have to wonder, is it down to who you know or who you can influence when it comes to charges. Shkreli got his comeuppance, but why a blind eye to other larger fish?