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As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots
- Animats 9y agoI've mentioned those machines before. They're still prototypes, nowhere near rugged enough for field use. Agrobot: [1] Too many parts, too many places that can catch dirt, too slow. If they can solve the sensor problem, they need to do a complete mechanical redesign to make it field-ready. Abundant Robotics: [2] Too slow, too fragile. For comparison, here's a Festo vision-guided robot picking up randomly oriented objects. Agricultural robotics needs that kind of speed. This is going to be solved soon, but probably not by those startups. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKT351pQHfI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKT351pQHfI [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS0coCmXiYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS0coCmXiYU [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH_t_1-tl40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH_t_1-tl40
- Qworg 9y agoWhile I agree with your conclusion in the small, Who else is working on it to take up the slack?
- Animats 9y agoDon't know. Doing good mechanical design requires an organization that's good at making machinery. Not that many people are really good at mechanical design. I occasionally mention that I'm into restoring antique Teletype machines. All the good Teletype machines were designed by two people - Howard Krum and Ed Klienschmidt. Competitors mostly copied them, or produced unreliable machinery. (I once worked at a hydraulics R&D facility for a big machinery company. They had that capability, and it took several acres of plant, with everything from overhead cranes to machine shops to scanning electron microscopes. It also took hundreds of people who've done it before. You need that kind of industrial backup. A laptop in a Starbucks is not enough. That gets you a design like Jucero, way overdesigned and overpriced.)
- mod 9y agoAVE (a youtube channel) pulled a Juicero apart and looked at it, and came to that same conclusion. Way overdesigned, but really nice guts in the thing. He thought they were losing money on the hardware, fwiw. It's a fun watch, if you're into that kind of thing. Warning, he probably uses NSFW language, he does frequently in most videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Retric 9y agoSpeed is significantly less important than your suggesting. The hard parts are not damaging the crop and most importantly not doing the wrong thing.
- evgen 9y agoI would have to disagree on that point; speed is vitally important for equipment like this. Speed and accuracy determine how many of these machines you would need during the short window of peak ripeness. Speed determines how long it will take to get a return (if any) on the capital investment required for the machine. There is a reason that agricultural equipment is so large and most of it has to do with the short window a farmer has available for harvest. A machine that harvests an acre an hour might be useful, a machine that harvests an acre a day is a tourist attraction.
- ipsum2 9y agoI don't have any experience in the commercial farming space, but since we're talking about strawberry picking here, aren't they picked far before the time that they're ripe, and ripened after using ethylene? (This is the main reason strawberries don't taste as good as they used to)
- zdragnar 9y agoThat is entirely owing to the time between the farm and the customer's mouth, not the time it takes to pick. There's still a small window where the fruit is grown enough to be edible (and a desirable size) but not so ripe that it is overripe by the time you buy it.
- wil421 9y agoEverything is picked before it's ripe otherwise you could only ship something like a day away. Most vegetables and fruits don't really need to ripen on the plant. But there is a fine line. I picked some peppers from my garden yesterday. A few are not as ripe as I want so I put them into a bag with a banana. Bananas produce more ethylene and by tomorrow all peppers should be red. No taste impact.
- olegkikin 9y agoYou can't seriously compare these machines to Festo, which basically works in 2D space in highly controlled environment with zero obstacles.
- mrfusion 9y agoIt seems like picking a lot of fruits are easily in the realm of what computer vision is capable of these days. What would be the first steps to doing a start up in this space? Anyone interested?
- avs733 9y agothere are startups. The issue is rarely technological capability as much as it is adoption, reliability, and durability. Not impossible just hard. There is a lot of work in the space being done by John Deere and others...a LOT of farm analytics, but most of their parts are still cast iron for a reason.
- rectangletangle 9y agoA lot of the issues currently are related to the mechanical handling of the fruit. It's very important not to bruise or damage the product. Buyers generally have strict rules on exactly how the fruit is picked, e.g., how much stem is still attached to the fruit, for both weight and quality reasons. Other issues arise if the orchard is on uneven ground, or their are irrigation lines in the way. Certainly not insurmountable, but not easy. Then there's the distinct problem of adoption.
- Torgo 9y agopotentially robotics could increase your yields by making uneven plots of land more viable for planting.
- maxxxxx 9y agoI think the first step would be to work in the area for a while and learn about the real issues. A lot of industries look really easy when you take a quick look from the outside but reality is a little more complex.
- craigm26 9y agoFind the easiest adaptation for the baseline of picking the fruit. E.g. a robot that picks fruit really well. I’m definitely interested in the farm/cv realm. It takes funding though.
- hi1234567890 9y agoThis would be a good time to implement regulations and taxes on all robots to diminish all margins gained from automation.
- snarf21 9y agoIt is definitely worth considering but there is the other side. Do you want prices to continue to rise as labor costs and healthcare grow? Or would you prefer these prices actually drop even as your income grows? I'm not saying either is right or wrong. Maybe this is solved with UBI or some other approach. If the taxes are super high, the incentive to automate is diminished.
- bflesch 9y agoThis idea is definitely NOT worth considering. With high margins, these robots actually get built, and the price will go down as other competitors catch up. In the end, everyone ends up better as it has been proven again and again in history.
- s73ver 9y agoExcept those who end up out of a job, and unable to provide for themselves and their families.
- greglindahl 9y agoWould this tax be on all labor-saving devices, like kitchen appliances? Washing machines? Oxen-powered plows?
- kasey_junk 9y agoLooms possibly?
- mullen 9y agoHow about the Wheel? Wheels deprive millions of jobs for people to carry stuff.
- csdrane 9y agoOr they could, you know, offer higher wages.
- JustAnotherPat 9y agoPicking fruit and vegetables has always been peasant and serf work. The market has never once said, 'you should be paid more,' because there always is an underclass and even if you paid triple what you pay now it'd be the same class of people working the job. The problem is every American thinks he's too good to be at the bottom of the barrel these days.
- Clubber 9y agoIf it's a comparison between getting crap pay at McDonalds and getting crap pay in the hot sun all day, then there is no comparison.
- jff 9y agoI've never worked at a McDonalds, but I've done my time out in the hot sun and honestly when I look at these poor bastards standing in front of a pot of boiling grease all day I wonder if I wouldn't go back to the farm. Unless the work was picking onions or strawberries or some other crop which involves spending all day in a terrible bent-over posture. If the pay was the same, though, I'd rather spend the day harvesting apples than spend it making burgers for assholes.
- dsfyu404ed 9y agoI'd rather pick fruit for minimum wage than operate an industrial dishwasher for minimum wage. It won't be 90-something degrees and 90-something percent humidity every day on the farm. It's a toss-up which is worse, the dish-room or the grill. The worst case is about the same. The average day is better picking fruit.
- HillaryBriss 9y agoFarm work tends to be structured as piece work in California. Workers are paid by the flat or bushel or even individual item. Also, one nice aspect of getting humans out of the fields is that large numbers of human workers (at least) won't be exposed to pesticides.
- avs733 9y agoThey could also, which is notably mentioned no where in the article, pay more? In a market driven economy...which companies want...employees have market power as well when their is a shortage.
- tonyedgecombe 9y agoOr just import more from Mexico and have Californians concentrate on the higher value jobs.
- coredog64 9y agoThis would be the best thing. US farm subsidies mean that Mexican farmers can't compete with US farms. If we stopped stupidly subsidizing farming[0], the Mexican economy would be able to make use of more of their citizens. They'd get the tax revenue, and maybe there'd even be more incentive to clean up corruption. [0] Food security might be worth some subsidization, but not the level that the US currently has.
- otempomores 9y agoNobody wants a food free market. A seller advantage would still be starvation.
- HillaryBriss 9y agoFarmers in Mexico are most certainly competing effectively with US farms in some categories e.g. citrus, avocados and tomatoes. And automated farm technology will (continue to) cross borders. These machines won't remain only in the US. They will be used in Mexico too.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- andrewla 9y ago> They could also, which is notably mentioned no where in the article, pay more? From the article: > And native-born Americans aren’t interested in the job, even at wages that have soared at higher than average rates. > Not surprisingly, wages for crop production have climbed 13% from 2010 to 2015 — a higher rate than the state average, according to a Los Angeles Times analysis of Labor Department data. > Growers who can afford it have begun offering savings and health plans more commonly found in white collar jobs. Margins are thin, though, and the article makes it sound like it is more efficient to grow less labor-intensive crops and import the other crops.
- valuearb 9y agoIt's too late. 90% of Americans used to work back-breaking farm jobs for 12 hours a day. Now almost all of those jobs have disappeared.
- ams6110 9y agoFarms have been replacing people with technology for at least 200 years.
- minikites 9y ago200? Try 6000: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/plaintexthistories.asp?historyid=ab57 http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/plaintexthistories.asp?h... >From about 4000 BC oxen are harnessed and put to work. They drag sledges and, somewhat later, ploughs and wheeled wagons (an almost simultaneous innovation in the Middle East and in Europe). The plough immeasurably increases the crop of wheat or rice. The wagon enables it to be brought home from more distant fields.
- ptaipale 9y agoNot sure why you'd be downvoted, but was about to post the same: the whole history of agriculture is about improving the technology. One could add that development has been particularly rapid over the past 50 years or so.
- dsfyu404ed 9y agoFarming itself was a huge leap forward in reducing man-hours per unit of food.
- dragonwriter 9y agoFarming itself is largely replacing human gathering labor with better technology, so 200 years is off by about 10,000 years.
- randomguy23 9y ago"Necessity is the Mother of Invention" - how many of us here only program when we have an itch to scratch? Human ingenuity will prevail.
- gooseus 9y agoNecessity is also an agent of destruction... how many people here have projects that failed because the necessary resources (capital,resources,time) far exceeded what could be viably sourced?
- frabbit 9y agoThat’s because immigrant farmworkers in California’s agricultural heartlands are getting older and not being replaced. As others have mentioned it's all to do with the wages that the fruit growers are willing to pay, and Driscoll's (mentioned in the article) have been at the center of controversy about their wages for some time for their practices in Mexico and elsewhere: https://boycott-driscolls.org/ https://boycott-driscolls.org/ The Union of Independent, National and Democratic Farmworkers (SINDJA) calls for all independent and autonomous boycott committees to unite for a global day of action on November 19th. We invite all families to support the International Boycott against Driscoll’s in solidarity with farmworkers in San Quintín, Mexico. In the US, when you sit down at your tables on Thanksgiving Day, we’re asking you to please think of the farmworkers in San Quintín, who work 12 to 15 hours a day for as little as 6 US dollars in take-home pay. Meanwhile, Driscoll’s is making multiple millions in profits. Robots for labor are coming, and when they do it is time to take agriculturally productive land away from the profiteers. They serve no rational function in the economy and are merely monopolizing a resource.
- wtvanhest 9y agoIf you believe this, you just need to buy ag land at today's prices and sell once your hypothesis plays out.
- sanderjd 9y agoI can't "just" buy land. Not many people can.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago> Robots for labor are coming, and when they do it is time to take agriculturally productive land away from the profiteers. They serve no rational function in the economy and are merely monopolizing a resource. This is one of the big questions we'll have to ask in the next 20 or so years, and it just isn't farms. We are going to have to deal with plenty of industries that will merely consume resources and produce without providing any other benefits to society.
- delbel 9y agoDoes anyone know of any groups or hacker like groups working on these types of problems? I own a small farm and for the life of me I cant find workers even at $25/hr. I have so far bought several tractors and implements and I am planning to semi-automate as much as possible. But that is not ready this year and I am basically by myself with a shovel... I would like to fully automate as much as possible, and I have zero skills in this area. To increase my chance of success I have bought several machines, such as 3d printers, a lathe, a milling machine, plasma cutter, welders (MIG and arc), and other tools, and I am building a shop right now. I have also worked with Ardunio, raspberry pi, ... basically I am going all out and want to go all the way to success. There are several machines I would like to build that I would like powered by the tractor´s PTO and hydraulic. The most important machine would be a planter that would plant solo-cup sized plant starts, and lay down drip irrigation. If I can build or buy that, that would save a lot of my time.
- noonespecial 9y agoI can't magic you up any workers but here's a hint: You'd be astonished at how quickly and accurately a large air compressor with a small amount of water added to the flow can dig a shallow trench or small hole.
- delbel 9y agoI actually have a backhoe, but the diesel injector pump is broken. Its a rosa master rotary injection pump. They go for $800 on ebay rebuilt. Project for the winter in my new shop. Thanks for your advice on the water injector. Do you have any design for injecting the water into the air line? How much water like in GPM or CFS per PSI?
- noonespecial 9y agoI spent a summer as "that guy who digs with the compressor" on a maintenance crew at a summer camp. I discovered it when I accidebtly blew a hole in an asphalt parking lot trying to use the compressor to clear sand. Compressor was a little 50hp Rand diesel tow behind. 120psi 180cfm. In soft soil no water is even needed. A little water (like 2-5 gpm makes everything nicer). I started by making a little brass siphon fitting and then upped it to a garden hose fitting by the end. Layed miles of sprinkler pipes with it. Always figured it would make a fantastic automatic digger for something or other.
- burner_account 9y agoNobody worries about labor automation in the context of raising min wages. But when it comes to immigration...
- RandyRanderson 9y agoYes, likely this will be the AI revolution: humans will only do jobs where robots are more expensive. These will 99.999999% be McJobs.
- xefer 9y agoI wonder when it will be considered unethical to eat food harvested by back-breaking stoop labor?
- rfrank 9y agoPeople already push that narrative, just with factory farming. Ascribing some moral position to strangers' diets is a pretty gross thing to do.
- wernercd 9y agoYeah... then the flip: When will it be unethical to eat food harvested by companies that don't employ people? You can spin it in both directions... on one side, those poor people who do back breaking labor... on the other side, those poor people who can't get jobs that are done by robots. Interesting time we live in.
- mikehines 9y agoCurious if California can incentivize farmers to train and hire capable homeless individuals to mitigate the labor shortage issue.
- Jabanga 9y agoTheoretically yes. Practically, no. Homelessness in rich countries is largely a result of substance abuse and underlying personality disorders (which are often the reason the substance abuse starts). Modern governments don't have the political will to break the social taboos necessary to instill discipline and personal responsibility in the homeless population, especially when there are large interest groups in the public sector who stand to lose financially from any serious effort to address the underlying causes of homelessness, especially if that effort rejects their ideological assumptions about the causes of homelessness.
- jack9 9y ago"As California's slave labor shortage grows..." The awful conditions and pay and protections result in people not wanting to do the work, since it's not even a livable wage. Might as well be begging (or move to somewhere else to beg), which is the easier and ultimately healthier choice.
- randyrand 9y agoRelative to what? Humans have been farming for thousands of years under worse condition and worse pay, yet humans still did it. In fact, even more humans used to do it. So awful pay and conditions are not a showstopper.
- SomeStupidPoint 9y agoDo you have citations most farming (historically) was done for worse pay under worse conditions?
- tormeh 9y agoBefore the industrial revolution, most people worked in agriculture. If you look at life expectancy in those ages it's pretty grim. Usually no one would live to be 45. I can't vouch for the following, but it seems like something a reasonable person would write: http://www.sarahwoodbury.com/life-expectancy-in-the-middle-ages/ http://www.sarahwoodbury.com/life-expectancy-in-the-middle-a...
- 1024core 9y ago> Stated bluntly, there aren’t enough new immigrants for the state’s nearly half-million farm labor jobs That's why we need a "farmworker" visa system, which lets workers come when required and go back as needed. Millions of people work on such visas all over the world; I don't see why it won't work in the US.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- sumedh 9y ago> go back as needed. The problem is, many people dont go back.
- intopieces 9y agoFTA: >After decades of crackdowns, the net flow across the U.S.-Mexico border reversed in 2005, a trend that accelerated through 2014, according to a Pew Research Center study
- sumedh 9y agoI would not blindly trust that statement, Pew says it’s inherently impossible to track accurately when it comes to illegal immigration.
- 1024core 9y agoBecause they have no choice. It's so hard to cross the border, that once you're in, you have no choice but to stay in. They also bring their families in, because otherwise they would not see them. Implement a farmworker visa that lets these workers go back and forth as needed, and suddenly they don't have to bring their families here; they can go back for events and festivals, maintaining a healthy social life. They can't be blackmailed by criminals, because they're here legally. You can even charge them a little bit for catastrophic health insurance.
- 9y ago