20 ms·

Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center

171 points by miraj 9y ago

ronilan 9y ago
Favorite quote: Vancouver is found in British Columbia (BC), amongst the Rocky Mountains on Canada’s west coast. Yah. Excellent.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  Somebody get these two a map.
- ghaff 9y ago
  To be fair, there are mountains and they're pretty rocky :-)
  - ronilan 9y ago
    Totally fair. And speaking of rocks, the hike up the Yosemite Half Dome, just an hour by car from downtown Vancouver is really nice. https://www.google.ca/search?tbm=isch&q=stawamus+chief https://www.google.ca/search?tbm=isch&q=stawamus+chief
- huangc10 9y ago
  Most people have it mixed up. They're usually referring to the Coast Mountains/Cascade Range which is located directly east of Vancouver (can be seen on a clear day). The actual Rocky Mountains are much more east at the BC/AB border. *edit, added Coast Mountains
startupdiscuss 9y ago
What bothers me about these articles is that they lay out all these reasons for why a place will be great, or is a great place to start a company, but then why -- in spite of these assets -- does that place not produce like Silicon Valley? I am not saying Toronto is not a great city to live and work and start a business. But if it has all these things going for it, why isn't it producing startup value per capita like SV? Doesn't this show that these things are not enough for a startup scene? Or, to put it another way, having startups is not essential for a great city.
- deleted 9y ago
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- deleted 9y ago
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- 52-6F-62 9y ago
  I think there are a number of factors here, and I don't think social factors should be ruled out. There are a number of startups here, but there are also many community/social innovation hubs[1] and organizations that draw in a lot of people who come here to start something up. The number of jobs I have seen posted for the "Next Flipp!" the "Next Uber!!!" is outstanding. How many flyer-aggregate apps do people really need? There's an odd lack of creative capital in business for a city that prides itself on the arts. I think some of that is due to social pressures. Many in the arts here, at least the people who would need the money, seem to think earning any real money is evil unless you earned your $10.50 an hour working on the line in a diner kitchen. As if a financially successful business is inherently a corrupt business. Other organizations like Enterprise Toronto[2] seem like great ideas to bolster people in theory, but (speaking only from my experience) it seems to attract people who want to only run their quaint one-man dev-designer gig with enough money to do what they want, and all the free time to do it. Sounds kind of nice, but the city is flooded with people who have the same dream. (Maybe there's more space for it these days, and maybe I should get in on it). Your last paragraph raises very good questions, and the answers are probably too many: the best talent goes to California/New York/Boston(/Waterloo?), or otherwise the best talent here doesn't get into business but stays in academics. Some of the highest capital here seems to be made through selling to American companies.[3] Then of course the social factors I mentioned: it might just be that the dream is a little different for a lot of people who come here. They didn't necessarily come to strike it big with a company, but more for the culture of the place. Like you put it: having startups is not essential for a great city. [1] https://socialinnovation.org/ https://socialinnovation.org/ [2] http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=032354ae91cda510VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=0323... [3] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-is-canadian-media-ignoring-the-100m-sale-of-a-toronto-startup-bitstrips-snapchat-bitmoji https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-is-canadian-m... edit: I should add the obligatory MaRS is an awesome resource comment. https://www.marsdd.com/ https://www.marsdd.com/
microcolonel 9y ago
Seems like Conrad is doing the equivalent of one of those $YOUR_CITY voted best place to live 2017 articles, but instead for entire countries, and specifically for startups. Not saying he's necessarily wrong about any of this though, I wouldn't know. https://techcrunch.com/contributor/conrad-egusa/ https://techcrunch.com/contributor/conrad-egusa/
- evgen 9y ago
  An obscure bylaw in the TechCrunch corporate charter mandates them to publish a 'why <some place that will never be the next Silicon Valley> is the next Silicon Valley' article every two months. Rumor has it that in the bottom desk of the editor's drawer is a jar of used blood from the last time vampire Thiel had a hemocyte change and a dart has its tip wetted with this foul ichor before being thrown across the room at a large map. Whoever does not turn away from viewing the ritual fast enough is assigned the story.
gricardo99 9y ago
I'm surprised to see how little funding/support there is specifically from Alberta[1], given the oil/gas wealth and the general awareness (going back decades) that they need to diversify their economy. 1 - https://www.mentorworks.ca/what-we-offer/government-funding/ https://www.mentorworks.ca/what-we-offer/government-funding/
- microcolonel 9y ago
  Alberta used to be the best province regarding the behaviour of government, and this was one of the great things. The provincial taxes are fairly low, and until the most recent regime change none of the cities had municipal debt. I would take lower taxes over a grant most days.
  - josho 9y ago
    How do taxes play a role for a startup that defers profit for growth? Taxes won't be a factor until you've succeeded. Or is it that your experience with grants are that negative that you value them so poorly?
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      Grants are dangerous for society, because they encourage private businesses to cooperate with current-term politics, and they take money out of the market. Last year, our federal government gave nearly $400mm to one company expecting the creation of just 1300 jobs. There are federal tax incentives for any company that does essentially anything novel (SRED) and that somewhat works, since acceptance is only conditional on meeting the criteria. Grants are preferential.
- gricardo99 9y ago
  Some quick googling and there appear to be many more Alberta government business funding programs: http://www.smallbusiness.alberta.ca/funding-a-business/ http://www.smallbusiness.alberta.ca/funding-a-business/ That's probably the case for other Provinces too.
- 9y ago
nickler 9y ago
The startup scene here in Vancouver is scrappy but really shouldn't be compared to SV in any way, it's just not a fair comparison. We are, however, woefully under-represented with experienced seed stage investors, as the author states. The few that are here have abandoned seed and pre seed and are exclusively VC, mid to late round investors. Can't blame them, either, as the wins are still few and far between. Vancity seems to excel at bridging H1B visas for large firms hoping to cycle them into the US once they've cleared. Candidates get here easier and quicker. We're also a cost effective labour farm, and our devs are happy for the work to help pay for their ridiculous mortgages. Great city to live in, worst city to fundraise, good place to launch and validate, and really nice for avoiding the noise. We'll see a unicorn or two in the coming years. They'll just go a much different path than the typical SV startup.
- venture_lol 9y ago
  It's not just money. You need the backing of movers and shakers who know doors to knock, open, and barge through.
  - nickler 9y ago
    Absolutely. See this a lot more in Waterloo/Toronto for sure. Just had a convo with a NYC venture friend who was raised here in Vancity and his quote was revealing. He said the stink of the VSE resource pump and dump era is still prevalent. I've been approached by 3 different groups trying to list us pre launch here in town. When that's the culture of the investment scene, it's tough to make anything great.
    - personjerry 9y ago
      What is "VSE resource pump and dump"?
      - thesmallestcat 9y ago
        VSE = Vancouver Stock Exchange. Pump and dump is a market timing strategy where you ride an inconsequential stock's rise over a relatively short time and then sell. I have no idea how that relates to parent's last sentence.
aanm1988 9y ago
This article reads like someone who doesn't give 2 shits about Canada decided to crack open wikipedia. > but many countries of similar stature — G7 nations, for example — dismiss the Great White North as nothing more than America’s top hat Canada is one of the G7 nations. Or did you mean the other 6 don't care about Canada? Can you please just not bother writing about my country anymore.
guyzero 9y ago
It makes me feel proud that Canada has been North America’s up-and-coming startup center since I graduated from Waterloo over 20 years ago. That's a solid, consistent track record of almost being there.
- dannylandau 9y ago
  Funny!
- acchow 9y ago
  I see more fluff pieces about Toronto-Waterloo than actual companies coming out of them.
- adventured 9y ago
  There has been a story equivalent to that on the front page every few weeks for the last five years that I've been reading HN. I attribute it to some kind of watch-goliath-fall fantasy. That has been amplified dramatically since Trump got elected. Since then, a couple dozen countries are now supposedly candidates to swipe a lot of tech talent away from the US. Nothing will come of it; even more high-skilled talent will actually make it to the US thanks to reforming the H-1B back to what it was supposed to be. Inbound, substantial corporate tax cuts will increase the power of the magnet luring start-ups to US shores.
  - tensor 9y ago
    This sort of arrogance only hurts you.
    - happyrock 9y ago
      What's "arrogant" about it?
  - acchow 9y ago
    Cities that are commonly touted as the "next silicon valley": - Berlin - Toronto-Waterloo - London - Vancouver - Shenzhen - Chicago
jtraffic 9y ago
I saw a poster in my business school building (in the midwest) about "Silicon Plains." Honestly, it'd be so cool if there really were more tech hubs, but the degree of wishful thinking can be almost painful. I'm not suggesting by this that Vancouver isn't an up-and-coming startup center. Just commenting on the extreme desire I see all around to be like SV.
flavoie 9y ago
" Similarly, sub-zero temperatures scare people to warmer areas, leading to a brain drain and serious demand for startup-orientated marketers." Living in one of the cities, sub-zero might have an impact but I don't think it's the brain drain main reason. For aspiring founder, I think it's more related to insufficient founding. For engineers, I think the very low salaries is more to blame. Even if cost of living is a bit lower, the difference makes no sense at all.
- kspaans 9y ago
  It's hard to do a proper comparison of costs unless you're young and single. Consider medical costs (usually, but not always covered by your US employer), and family-related costs (school for kids is the biggest I can think of: private schools and private universities being more expensive in the US).
  - canistr 9y ago
    What's sad is that Canada has a very good public school system all the way from Kindergarten to University. Combined with the lower costs (i.e. free K-12 for these good schools unlike Americans sending kids to private schools) and reduced stress on children due to lack of a standardized university entrance exam, Canada SHOULD be a place where people want to have families. That being said, I'm a product of the public schooling system in Scarborough/Markham. Which could possibly have the best free public schools in North America.
    - xbeta 9y ago
      Same here ! I think we might be from the same school. I grew up my highschool in Scarborough.
      - tostitos1979 9y ago
        Markham yes .. but Scarborough having the best schools?? Which one? George S Henry in North York was pretty awesome.
hughes 9y ago
This article doesn't mention one of the major reasons for talent leaving Canada: if you work there, you need to stomach a 50% pay cut in average salaries vs the US. This is true pretty much across the board regardless of tech niche on the 2017 Stack Overflow Developer Survey[1]: Machine learning specialist: US 108k, Canada 53k (49%) Embedded applications/devices developer: US 100k, Canada 53k (53%) Systems administrator: US 90k, Canda 49k (55%) Doubling your salary by moving south across the border is a very tempting option, especially considering that NAFTA makes it extremely easy to do so. No need to wait for an H1-B, just show up at the border with job offer & credentials in hand, assuming you've graduated college. TN visas are instant and infinitely renewable. [1] https://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017#work-salaries-by-geography https://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017#work-salaries...
- scosman 9y ago
  Those seem too low, both US and Canada. Is anyone really paying a ML specialist $53k?
  - jonathannorris 9y ago
    I'm assuming that comparison is converting CAD to USD which would make it ~$72k CAD, because $53k is way to low. But that doesn't make this comparison any more realistic seeing as you'd be living in Canada spending CAD.
- TP4Cornholio 9y ago
  I can't believe it's so low. I hope Canadians aren't asked to put in overtime at those wages.
  - breitling 9y ago
    You better believe it. Overtime is expected.
    - brunoc 9y ago
      Maybe where you work. Not expected everywhere at all.
rdtsc 9y ago
Rule of "Silicone Valleys" and "Startup Centers": if it is announced in a press release that a place is becoming one of those things, chances are they won't. A lot of these press releases come from top down incentives, tax cuts, special programs and such that. The problem is they fail to capture all the reasons and causes a startup center is a startup center. One thing might help is to start war for example and have the Canadian defense ministry invest heavily in war technologies and hand out cash to develop radars :-) or other such non-obvious things.
- arcticbull 9y ago
  So we use our armies to keep peace and to defend ourselves, not to attack. The NRC -- National Research Council -- works with the private sector to productize promising new technologies without invading ^_^
ilugaslifg 9y ago
Vancouver: where senior developers would be genuinely lucky to top out at $90k, a single bedroom on a transit line is $800k, a teardown in a distant suburb is $1.5M, and bottom shelf cheese costs $40/lb. I don't think a startup scene in a city is ever going to really blow up when sticking around in that city is giving up the possibility of building any kind of future for yourself. Everybody I know who's worth half a damn moved to Seattle. ---- Toronto: maybe. Montreal: sure. The prairies: "Is Fargo the next up-and-coming startup center?"
- rrdharan 9y ago
  I grew up in Toronto and have visited Montreal numerous times but only as a tourist. At any rate I'm very skeptical of the Montreal claims. It is a wonderful place to visit, but all of my Canadian non-native French speaking friends eventually found that their career opportunities were limited and the culture was simply too hostile to non-Quebecois and so they relocated away.
chefandy 9y ago
Meh. The weather is already too cold for me in the Northern US.
- huangc10 9y ago
  Actually, the weather in Vancouver and Seattle are not bad as they have the Pineapple Express. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineapple_Express https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineapple_Express
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - kazinator 9y ago
    "Pinapple Express" is an ironic term for what is, in fact, days of shitty weather. There are waves of heavy rain. The air might not be that cold, but you will be if you're soaked.
    - huangc10 9y ago
      "Shitty" is subjective. The fact is, the Pineapple Express brings warmer, tropical-esque temperatures. I grew up in Vancouver and didn't move away till I was 18. I've always thought the rainy weather was nice and didn't think too much about it. That's just me...haha :D
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - kazinator 9y ago
        Pineapple express weather is good for people who walk to their cars with an umbrella. 11 degrees C in January indisputably beats being in some snow blizzard in northern Ontario. Look how much better off we are than those suckers, ha ha! 11 degree water, on the other hand, is like out of the cold water tap. Not so great for outdoor activity. Add to that the windchill factor if you're running or cycling. Clear, sunny weather and -3 degrees is better than pouring rain and 11 degrees. Staying warm isn't much of an issue for outdoor activity. It's not hard to achieve: an extra layer, some head gear and gloves; being dry is more important.
moojah 9y ago
This sounds like the typical Silicon-everywhere story. Any big developed country now has a "start up scene", and rightly so. Otherwise they wouldn't be developed. Relatively speaking, all of them are up and coming, as they're all catching up with the original silicon valley. The only notable and interesting stories are when the articles compare absolute investment amounts, tech GDP growth, IPOs, open tech jobs or other real measurable comparisons. This seems to be lacking any of these deeper comparison to actually non-trivially show how this area is really the "up-and-coming startup center" of North America.
canistr 9y ago
As far as Toronto is concerned, nobody grows to the size of a multi-national juggernaut. Everyone takes the buyout/merger/acquisition way before that ever happens. It's often been said, what major multi-national corporation has their headquarters here? Reuters is the only one and they are technically headquartered in New York now. The companies that get that far will typically come out of other places where they aren't stifled by the conservative VCs/angels eager for an exit like they are in Toronto.
- thesmallestcat 9y ago
  Does TD count?
  - canistr 9y ago
    No, I don't think any of the big Canadian banks would or should count.
- sanswork 9y ago
  Brookfield is another.
huangc10 9y ago
I just want to give my POV on all of this as I have lived in both Vancouver, Toronto, and now in Mountain View. Everything pointed out in the comments about low pay, and high cost of living in Vancouver is true. However, let's look of it from another angle. If you were a young college grad with options, wouldn't you want to go to sunny California? Not only is it an adventure, there's better night life, better sports teams, the glory of the valley, and on top of that, higher pay. It's really a no brainer for some. Toronto is definitely a better environment and I can see it blossoming more and more. I know a couple of Founders there and they love it. I would go there myself in the future, except for family ties in the west coast. Just my 2 cents.
- mistermann 9y ago
  Also lower chance of suicidal depression from 8 months per year of gloomy grey skies and rain.
  - georgecarlin 9y ago
    -20 degree winters will do that to you if rain doesn't
- deanCommie 9y ago
  I've also been to Mountain View. As a young college grad I would like to live in a CITY, not a sprawling suburban nightmare where half of my day would be stuck in traffic. The higher pay is the ONLY reason to move to Silicon Valley. It has nothing on Vancouver or Toronto in terms of night life, food, or fun for a college-educated professional.
  - ng12 9y ago
    So why not NYC? More of a city and better wages for devs than either Vancouver or Toronto.
    - deanCommie 9y ago
      Agreed. NYC is the best choice.
sheepmullet 9y ago
SV used to be a cheap place to live and this helped the startup scene grow into what it is today. Now it's (more or less) self sustaining. It enabled a lot of risk taking. I don't think you could call any major Canadian city cheap. So how does it build up an ecosystem? Maybe if all the VCs etc get chased out of the US?
bobosha 9y ago
I speak as a founder of an AI company in Vancouver Canada and ran it there for ~1 year - we relocated to US for fundraising and that's another story - but here is my sense for salaries: * AI/ML Scientists (UBC, SFU) , Typically MS/PhD: C$85K-125K * Web developers: ranges from 60K (mediocre) to 110K (very good), the exceptional are nearly impossible to find. * Database/Backend : C$80K-100K for the good to very good talent. I would expect Toronto to have similar salary ranges, Waterloo and Montreal might be a bit lower.
- hashbig 9y ago
  Montreal is way lower. But then again rent here is significantly less than Vancouver/Toronto.
jostmey 9y ago
So basically because the cost of living in San Francisco is scary, everyone is looking for the next start-up center and assuming it will be somewhere outside the United States. But there are many other cheap places to live in the US, much cheaper than Canada. I guess the current political climate in the US could be a driving factor.
Nanite 9y ago
Mind you this is by the same author who wrote : "The Netherlands: A Look At The World’s High-Tech Startup Capital" and half a dozen similar pieces. Often cringeworthy PR fluff written in tourist brochure style.
Deinumite 9y ago
This article looks like a fluff piece that is pretty thin on actual research. They talk about how great MaRS is and how much revenue it has generated... but in reality MaRS has been an issue and has had hundreds of millions in bailout money.
personjerry 9y ago
Is Waterloo or Toronto better for starting a tech startup?
- filereaper 9y ago
  I'd say Waterloo, getting office rentals are cheaper and overall living costs are cheaper in Waterloo. You also get access to UW and Velocity (shout-out to Jay Shah!). Toronto has MARS and DMZ and 111 Richmond are a few places to start off. I'd rather take Waterloo over that any day. The real-estate in Toronto is just insane. Neither Toronto nor Waterloo has the VC's of Sand Hill Road, so if you're on the fund raising track, Waterloo being an hour away makes no difference. So yea, I'd still opt for Waterloo, just my opinion, others will likely disagree.
johncop 9y ago
There is no huge difference in tech jobs salaries between US and Canada. You can easliy spot it on the salary map: https://jobsquery.it/map;bounds=%7B%22south%22%3A46.234321302666864%2C%22west%22%3A-129.74610045552254%2C%22north%22%3A56.09145008422483%2C%22east%22%3A-107.77344420552254%7D https://jobsquery.it/map;bounds=%7B%22south%22%3A46.23432130... But there is a significant difference in the number of job offers: USA: ~5000 https://jobsquery.it/jobs;page=1;tags=;sortBy=PUBLISHED_AT_DESC;query=;location=USA https://jobsquery.it/jobs;page=1;tags=;sortBy=PUBLISHED_AT_D... VS CANADA: ~100 https://jobsquery.it/jobs;page=1;tags=;sortBy=PUBLISHED_AT_DESC;query=;location=Canada https://jobsquery.it/jobs;page=1;tags=;sortBy=PUBLISHED_AT_D...
Illniyar 9y ago
The title is really foolish - so out of the two countries in north america, the first one actually being the startup center canada is aspiring to (according to the title) canada is up and coming. Also, shocking news - I use my left hand the second most often of all my hands. A better, and overused, title would be "Canada is poised to be the next startup center" or something.
ed_balls 9y ago
> Many household names, such as Slack, Hootsuite and Shopify — which may be mistakenly considered as U.S. products — hail from north of the border. They are Delaware corporations, aren't they?
- forkLding 9y ago
  Not essentially, everyone registers as Delaware for tax benefits. So did we but we're situated in Toronto. Also you could be sarcastic, hard to tell.
jensv 9y ago
Canada is a better place to live but due to the low population, culture (less consumerism/socialist mentality) you are not going to generate outsized returns from pure capitalism.
jjtheblunt 9y ago
Canada is North America's shameful violence against seals for furs center. Oh, and Waterloo is a good school.
cylinder 9y ago
This headline is funny. North America is only three countries. One is already its startup center which leaves only Mexico or Canada or both as its up and coming center.
AzzieElbab 9y ago
feast your eyes https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/325100669/ https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/325100669/

171 points by miraj 9y ago

Favorite quote: Vancouver is found in British Columbia (BC), amongst the Rocky Mountains on Canada’s west coast. Yah. Excellent.

microcolonel 9y ago
Somebody get these two a map.
ghaff 9y ago
To be fair, there are mountains and they're pretty rocky :-)
- ronilan 9y ago
  Totally fair. And speaking of rocks, the hike up the Yosemite Half Dome, just an hour by car from downtown Vancouver is really nice. https://www.google.ca/search?tbm=isch&q=stawamus+chief https://www.google.ca/search?tbm=isch&q=stawamus+chief
huangc10 9y ago
Most people have it mixed up. They're usually referring to the Coast Mountains/Cascade Range which is located directly east of Vancouver (can be seen on a clear day). The actual Rocky Mountains are much more east at the BC/AB border. *edit, added Coast Mountains

startupdiscuss 9y ago

What bothers me about these articles is that they lay out all these reasons for why a place will be great, or is a great place to start a company, but then why -- in spite of these assets -- does that place not produce like Silicon Valley? I am not saying Toronto is not a great city to live and work and start a business. But if it has all these things going for it, why isn't it producing startup value per capita like SV? Doesn't this show that these things are not enough for a startup scene? Or, to put it another way, having startups is not essential for a great city.

deleted 9y ago
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deleted 9y ago
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52-6F-62 9y ago
I think there are a number of factors here, and I don't think social factors should be ruled out. There are a number of startups here, but there are also many community/social innovation hubs[1] and organizations that draw in a lot of people who come here to start something up. The number of jobs I have seen posted for the "Next Flipp!" the "Next Uber!!!" is outstanding. How many flyer-aggregate apps do people really need? There's an odd lack of creative capital in business for a city that prides itself on the arts. I think some of that is due to social pressures. Many in the arts here, at least the people who would need the money, seem to think earning any real money is evil unless you earned your $10.50 an hour working on the line in a diner kitchen. As if a financially successful business is inherently a corrupt business. Other organizations like Enterprise Toronto[2] seem like great ideas to bolster people in theory, but (speaking only from my experience) it seems to attract people who want to only run their quaint one-man dev-designer gig with enough money to do what they want, and all the free time to do it. Sounds kind of nice, but the city is flooded with people who have the same dream. (Maybe there's more space for it these days, and maybe I should get in on it). Your last paragraph raises very good questions, and the answers are probably too many: the best talent goes to California/New York/Boston(/Waterloo?), or otherwise the best talent here doesn't get into business but stays in academics. Some of the highest capital here seems to be made through selling to American companies.[3] Then of course the social factors I mentioned: it might just be that the dream is a little different for a lot of people who come here. They didn't necessarily come to strike it big with a company, but more for the culture of the place. Like you put it: having startups is not essential for a great city. [1] https://socialinnovation.org/ https://socialinnovation.org/ [2] http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=032354ae91cda510VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=0323... [3] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-is-canadian-media-ignoring-the-100m-sale-of-a-toronto-startup-bitstrips-snapchat-bitmoji https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-is-canadian-m... edit: I should add the obligatory MaRS is an awesome resource comment. https://www.marsdd.com/ https://www.marsdd.com/

microcolonel 9y ago

Seems like Conrad is doing the equivalent of one of those $YOUR_CITY voted best place to live 2017 articles, but instead for entire countries, and specifically for startups. Not saying he's necessarily wrong about any of this though, I wouldn't know. https://techcrunch.com/contributor/conrad-egusa/ https://techcrunch.com/contributor/conrad-egusa/

evgen 9y ago
An obscure bylaw in the TechCrunch corporate charter mandates them to publish a 'why <some place that will never be the next Silicon Valley> is the next Silicon Valley' article every two months. Rumor has it that in the bottom desk of the editor's drawer is a jar of used blood from the last time vampire Thiel had a hemocyte change and a dart has its tip wetted with this foul ichor before being thrown across the room at a large map. Whoever does not turn away from viewing the ritual fast enough is assigned the story.

gricardo99 9y ago

I'm surprised to see how little funding/support there is specifically from Alberta[1], given the oil/gas wealth and the general awareness (going back decades) that they need to diversify their economy. 1 - https://www.mentorworks.ca/what-we-offer/government-funding/ https://www.mentorworks.ca/what-we-offer/government-funding/

microcolonel 9y ago
Alberta used to be the best province regarding the behaviour of government, and this was one of the great things. The provincial taxes are fairly low, and until the most recent regime change none of the cities had municipal debt. I would take lower taxes over a grant most days.
- josho 9y ago
  How do taxes play a role for a startup that defers profit for growth? Taxes won't be a factor until you've succeeded. Or is it that your experience with grants are that negative that you value them so poorly?
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    Grants are dangerous for society, because they encourage private businesses to cooperate with current-term politics, and they take money out of the market. Last year, our federal government gave nearly $400mm to one company expecting the creation of just 1300 jobs. There are federal tax incentives for any company that does essentially anything novel (SRED) and that somewhat works, since acceptance is only conditional on meeting the criteria. Grants are preferential.
gricardo99 9y ago
Some quick googling and there appear to be many more Alberta government business funding programs: http://www.smallbusiness.alberta.ca/funding-a-business/ http://www.smallbusiness.alberta.ca/funding-a-business/ That's probably the case for other Provinces too.
9y ago

nickler 9y ago

The startup scene here in Vancouver is scrappy but really shouldn't be compared to SV in any way, it's just not a fair comparison. We are, however, woefully under-represented with experienced seed stage investors, as the author states. The few that are here have abandoned seed and pre seed and are exclusively VC, mid to late round investors. Can't blame them, either, as the wins are still few and far between. Vancity seems to excel at bridging H1B visas for large firms hoping to cycle them into the US once they've cleared. Candidates get here easier and quicker. We're also a cost effective labour farm, and our devs are happy for the work to help pay for their ridiculous mortgages. Great city to live in, worst city to fundraise, good place to launch and validate, and really nice for avoiding the noise. We'll see a unicorn or two in the coming years. They'll just go a much different path than the typical SV startup.

venture_lol 9y ago
It's not just money. You need the backing of movers and shakers who know doors to knock, open, and barge through.
- nickler 9y ago
  Absolutely. See this a lot more in Waterloo/Toronto for sure. Just had a convo with a NYC venture friend who was raised here in Vancity and his quote was revealing. He said the stink of the VSE resource pump and dump era is still prevalent. I've been approached by 3 different groups trying to list us pre launch here in town. When that's the culture of the investment scene, it's tough to make anything great.
  - personjerry 9y ago
    What is "VSE resource pump and dump"?
    - thesmallestcat 9y ago
      VSE = Vancouver Stock Exchange. Pump and dump is a market timing strategy where you ride an inconsequential stock's rise over a relatively short time and then sell. I have no idea how that relates to parent's last sentence.

aanm1988 9y ago

This article reads like someone who doesn't give 2 shits about Canada decided to crack open wikipedia. > but many countries of similar stature — G7 nations, for example — dismiss the Great White North as nothing more than America’s top hat Canada is one of the G7 nations. Or did you mean the other 6 don't care about Canada? Can you please just not bother writing about my country anymore.

guyzero 9y ago

It makes me feel proud that Canada has been North America’s up-and-coming startup center since I graduated from Waterloo over 20 years ago. That's a solid, consistent track record of almost being there.

dannylandau 9y ago
Funny!
acchow 9y ago
I see more fluff pieces about Toronto-Waterloo than actual companies coming out of them.
adventured 9y ago
There has been a story equivalent to that on the front page every few weeks for the last five years that I've been reading HN. I attribute it to some kind of watch-goliath-fall fantasy. That has been amplified dramatically since Trump got elected. Since then, a couple dozen countries are now supposedly candidates to swipe a lot of tech talent away from the US. Nothing will come of it; even more high-skilled talent will actually make it to the US thanks to reforming the H-1B back to what it was supposed to be. Inbound, substantial corporate tax cuts will increase the power of the magnet luring start-ups to US shores.
- tensor 9y ago
  This sort of arrogance only hurts you.
  - happyrock 9y ago
    What's "arrogant" about it?
- acchow 9y ago
  Cities that are commonly touted as the "next silicon valley": - Berlin - Toronto-Waterloo - London - Vancouver - Shenzhen - Chicago

jtraffic 9y ago

I saw a poster in my business school building (in the midwest) about "Silicon Plains." Honestly, it'd be so cool if there really were more tech hubs, but the degree of wishful thinking can be almost painful. I'm not suggesting by this that Vancouver isn't an up-and-coming startup center. Just commenting on the extreme desire I see all around to be like SV.

flavoie 9y ago

" Similarly, sub-zero temperatures scare people to warmer areas, leading to a brain drain and serious demand for startup-orientated marketers." Living in one of the cities, sub-zero might have an impact but I don't think it's the brain drain main reason. For aspiring founder, I think it's more related to insufficient founding. For engineers, I think the very low salaries is more to blame. Even if cost of living is a bit lower, the difference makes no sense at all.

kspaans 9y ago
It's hard to do a proper comparison of costs unless you're young and single. Consider medical costs (usually, but not always covered by your US employer), and family-related costs (school for kids is the biggest I can think of: private schools and private universities being more expensive in the US).
- canistr 9y ago
  What's sad is that Canada has a very good public school system all the way from Kindergarten to University. Combined with the lower costs (i.e. free K-12 for these good schools unlike Americans sending kids to private schools) and reduced stress on children due to lack of a standardized university entrance exam, Canada SHOULD be a place where people want to have families. That being said, I'm a product of the public schooling system in Scarborough/Markham. Which could possibly have the best free public schools in North America.
  - xbeta 9y ago
    Same here ! I think we might be from the same school. I grew up my highschool in Scarborough.
    - tostitos1979 9y ago
      Markham yes .. but Scarborough having the best schools?? Which one? George S Henry in North York was pretty awesome.

hughes 9y ago

This article doesn't mention one of the major reasons for talent leaving Canada: if you work there, you need to stomach a 50% pay cut in average salaries vs the US. This is true pretty much across the board regardless of tech niche on the 2017 Stack Overflow Developer Survey[1]: Machine learning specialist: US 108k, Canada 53k (49%) Embedded applications/devices developer: US 100k, Canada 53k (53%) Systems administrator: US 90k, Canda 49k (55%) Doubling your salary by moving south across the border is a very tempting option, especially considering that NAFTA makes it extremely easy to do so. No need to wait for an H1-B, just show up at the border with job offer & credentials in hand, assuming you've graduated college. TN visas are instant and infinitely renewable. [1] https://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017#work-salaries-by-geography https://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017#work-salaries...

scosman 9y ago
Those seem too low, both US and Canada. Is anyone really paying a ML specialist $53k?
- jonathannorris 9y ago
  I'm assuming that comparison is converting CAD to USD which would make it ~$72k CAD, because $53k is way to low. But that doesn't make this comparison any more realistic seeing as you'd be living in Canada spending CAD.
TP4Cornholio 9y ago
I can't believe it's so low. I hope Canadians aren't asked to put in overtime at those wages.
- breitling 9y ago
  You better believe it. Overtime is expected.
  - brunoc 9y ago
    Maybe where you work. Not expected everywhere at all.

rdtsc 9y ago

Rule of "Silicone Valleys" and "Startup Centers": if it is announced in a press release that a place is becoming one of those things, chances are they won't. A lot of these press releases come from top down incentives, tax cuts, special programs and such that. The problem is they fail to capture all the reasons and causes a startup center is a startup center. One thing might help is to start war for example and have the Canadian defense ministry invest heavily in war technologies and hand out cash to develop radars :-) or other such non-obvious things.

arcticbull 9y ago
So we use our armies to keep peace and to defend ourselves, not to attack. The NRC -- National Research Council -- works with the private sector to productize promising new technologies without invading ^_^

ilugaslifg 9y ago

Vancouver: where senior developers would be genuinely lucky to top out at $90k, a single bedroom on a transit line is $800k, a teardown in a distant suburb is $1.5M, and bottom shelf cheese costs $40/lb. I don't think a startup scene in a city is ever going to really blow up when sticking around in that city is giving up the possibility of building any kind of future for yourself. Everybody I know who's worth half a damn moved to Seattle. ---- Toronto: maybe. Montreal: sure. The prairies: "Is Fargo the next up-and-coming startup center?"

rrdharan 9y ago
I grew up in Toronto and have visited Montreal numerous times but only as a tourist. At any rate I'm very skeptical of the Montreal claims. It is a wonderful place to visit, but all of my Canadian non-native French speaking friends eventually found that their career opportunities were limited and the culture was simply too hostile to non-Quebecois and so they relocated away.

chefandy 9y ago

Meh. The weather is already too cold for me in the Northern US.

huangc10 9y ago
Actually, the weather in Vancouver and Seattle are not bad as they have the Pineapple Express. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineapple_Express https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineapple_Express
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- kazinator 9y ago
  "Pinapple Express" is an ironic term for what is, in fact, days of shitty weather. There are waves of heavy rain. The air might not be that cold, but you will be if you're soaked.
  - huangc10 9y ago
    "Shitty" is subjective. The fact is, the Pineapple Express brings warmer, tropical-esque temperatures. I grew up in Vancouver and didn't move away till I was 18. I've always thought the rainy weather was nice and didn't think too much about it. That's just me...haha :D
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - kazinator 9y ago
      Pineapple express weather is good for people who walk to their cars with an umbrella. 11 degrees C in January indisputably beats being in some snow blizzard in northern Ontario. Look how much better off we are than those suckers, ha ha! 11 degree water, on the other hand, is like out of the cold water tap. Not so great for outdoor activity. Add to that the windchill factor if you're running or cycling. Clear, sunny weather and -3 degrees is better than pouring rain and 11 degrees. Staying warm isn't much of an issue for outdoor activity. It's not hard to achieve: an extra layer, some head gear and gloves; being dry is more important.

moojah 9y ago

This sounds like the typical Silicon-everywhere story. Any big developed country now has a "start up scene", and rightly so. Otherwise they wouldn't be developed. Relatively speaking, all of them are up and coming, as they're all catching up with the original silicon valley. The only notable and interesting stories are when the articles compare absolute investment amounts, tech GDP growth, IPOs, open tech jobs or other real measurable comparisons. This seems to be lacking any of these deeper comparison to actually non-trivially show how this area is really the "up-and-coming startup center" of North America.

canistr 9y ago

As far as Toronto is concerned, nobody grows to the size of a multi-national juggernaut. Everyone takes the buyout/merger/acquisition way before that ever happens. It's often been said, what major multi-national corporation has their headquarters here? Reuters is the only one and they are technically headquartered in New York now. The companies that get that far will typically come out of other places where they aren't stifled by the conservative VCs/angels eager for an exit like they are in Toronto.

thesmallestcat 9y ago
Does TD count?
- canistr 9y ago
  No, I don't think any of the big Canadian banks would or should count.
sanswork 9y ago
Brookfield is another.

huangc10 9y ago

I just want to give my POV on all of this as I have lived in both Vancouver, Toronto, and now in Mountain View. Everything pointed out in the comments about low pay, and high cost of living in Vancouver is true. However, let's look of it from another angle. If you were a young college grad with options, wouldn't you want to go to sunny California? Not only is it an adventure, there's better night life, better sports teams, the glory of the valley, and on top of that, higher pay. It's really a no brainer for some. Toronto is definitely a better environment and I can see it blossoming more and more. I know a couple of Founders there and they love it. I would go there myself in the future, except for family ties in the west coast. Just my 2 cents.

mistermann 9y ago
Also lower chance of suicidal depression from 8 months per year of gloomy grey skies and rain.
- georgecarlin 9y ago
  -20 degree winters will do that to you if rain doesn't
deanCommie 9y ago
I've also been to Mountain View. As a young college grad I would like to live in a CITY, not a sprawling suburban nightmare where half of my day would be stuck in traffic. The higher pay is the ONLY reason to move to Silicon Valley. It has nothing on Vancouver or Toronto in terms of night life, food, or fun for a college-educated professional.
- ng12 9y ago
  So why not NYC? More of a city and better wages for devs than either Vancouver or Toronto.
  - deanCommie 9y ago
    Agreed. NYC is the best choice.

sheepmullet 9y ago

SV used to be a cheap place to live and this helped the startup scene grow into what it is today. Now it's (more or less) self sustaining. It enabled a lot of risk taking. I don't think you could call any major Canadian city cheap. So how does it build up an ecosystem? Maybe if all the VCs etc get chased out of the US?

bobosha 9y ago

I speak as a founder of an AI company in Vancouver Canada and ran it there for ~1 year - we relocated to US for fundraising and that's another story - but here is my sense for salaries: * AI/ML Scientists (UBC, SFU) , Typically MS/PhD: C$85K-125K * Web developers: ranges from 60K (mediocre) to 110K (very good), the exceptional are nearly impossible to find. * Database/Backend : C$80K-100K for the good to very good talent. I would expect Toronto to have similar salary ranges, Waterloo and Montreal might be a bit lower.

hashbig 9y ago
Montreal is way lower. But then again rent here is significantly less than Vancouver/Toronto.

jostmey 9y ago

So basically because the cost of living in San Francisco is scary, everyone is looking for the next start-up center and assuming it will be somewhere outside the United States. But there are many other cheap places to live in the US, much cheaper than Canada. I guess the current political climate in the US could be a driving factor.

Nanite 9y ago

Mind you this is by the same author who wrote : "The Netherlands: A Look At The World’s High-Tech Startup Capital" and half a dozen similar pieces. Often cringeworthy PR fluff written in tourist brochure style.

Deinumite 9y ago

This article looks like a fluff piece that is pretty thin on actual research. They talk about how great MaRS is and how much revenue it has generated... but in reality MaRS has been an issue and has had hundreds of millions in bailout money.

personjerry 9y ago

Is Waterloo or Toronto better for starting a tech startup?

filereaper 9y ago
I'd say Waterloo, getting office rentals are cheaper and overall living costs are cheaper in Waterloo. You also get access to UW and Velocity (shout-out to Jay Shah!). Toronto has MARS and DMZ and 111 Richmond are a few places to start off. I'd rather take Waterloo over that any day. The real-estate in Toronto is just insane. Neither Toronto nor Waterloo has the VC's of Sand Hill Road, so if you're on the fund raising track, Waterloo being an hour away makes no difference. So yea, I'd still opt for Waterloo, just my opinion, others will likely disagree.

johncop 9y ago

There is no huge difference in tech jobs salaries between US and Canada. You can easliy spot it on the salary map: https://jobsquery.it/map;bounds=%7B%22south%22%3A46.234321302666864%2C%22west%22%3A-129.74610045552254%2C%22north%22%3A56.09145008422483%2C%22east%22%3A-107.77344420552254%7D https://jobsquery.it/map;bounds=%7B%22south%22%3A46.23432130... But there is a significant difference in the number of job offers: USA: ~5000 https://jobsquery.it/jobs;page=1;tags=;sortBy=PUBLISHED_AT_DESC;query=;location=USA https://jobsquery.it/jobs;page=1;tags=;sortBy=PUBLISHED_AT_D... VS CANADA: ~100 https://jobsquery.it/jobs;page=1;tags=;sortBy=PUBLISHED_AT_DESC;query=;location=Canada https://jobsquery.it/jobs;page=1;tags=;sortBy=PUBLISHED_AT_D...

Illniyar 9y ago

The title is really foolish - so out of the two countries in north america, the first one actually being the startup center canada is aspiring to (according to the title) canada is up and coming. Also, shocking news - I use my left hand the second most often of all my hands. A better, and overused, title would be "Canada is poised to be the next startup center" or something.

ed_balls 9y ago

> Many household names, such as Slack, Hootsuite and Shopify — which may be mistakenly considered as U.S. products — hail from north of the border. They are Delaware corporations, aren't they?

forkLding 9y ago
Not essentially, everyone registers as Delaware for tax benefits. So did we but we're situated in Toronto. Also you could be sarcastic, hard to tell.

jensv 9y ago

Canada is a better place to live but due to the low population, culture (less consumerism/socialist mentality) you are not going to generate outsized returns from pure capitalism.

jjtheblunt 9y ago

Canada is North America's shameful violence against seals for furs center. Oh, and Waterloo is a good school.

cylinder 9y ago

This headline is funny. North America is only three countries. One is already its startup center which leaves only Mexico or Canada or both as its up and coming center.

AzzieElbab 9y ago

feast your eyes https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/325100669/ https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/325100669/