22 ms·

No tipping means better business

• magaman69 10y ago
  restaurants will be gone when we all start popping meal pills. The tech is probably 3-4 years out by conservative estimates.
  • _ph_ 10y ago
    For me, restaurants are not about getting nutrition, they are about enjoying the food and spending a nice time with friends.
  • relics443 10y ago
    Will the meal pills replicate the taste of your favorite food? Because I'm not going to restaurants for their nutritious value.
  • dajohnson89 10y ago
    2000 calories -- that's a lot of pills.
    • DrScump 10y ago
      The first implementation is known as "M&Ms".
      • dajohnson89 10y ago
        Make an M&M flavored Soylent a la Dairy Queen's Blizzard and we're in business.
  • j7ake 10y ago
    Any scientific research to back this up ? Genuinely curious but slightly skeptical.
  • partycoder 10y ago
    Not if you ask nutrition professionals.
  • serf 10y ago
    I mostly go to restaurants with people to enjoy a cup of coffee over conversation. The belly-filling is incidental. (for the sake of beautiful symmetry, I don't go to restaurants by myself..)
  • tomhoward 10y ago
    No way. We've already had a huge preview into how well artificial food replacement products are received by the general public, in the form of Soylent and similar meal replacement drinks and powders. The answer is that these products have niche demand at best, even before considering the problems they've had with quality control, negative health reactions, etc. My own experience is that a few years ago I spent a few months living on a Soylent-like concoction of nutritional supplements . It covered all my nutritional needs and had me feeling great in some ways (just like Soylent users report), but after a while led to dreadful problems with my digestive system and mental wellbeing. After everything I've seen and experienced, I'm very long on conventional food.
    • concerned_user 10y ago
      They seem to be having some issues recently. On October 12, 2016, the company announced it would halt sales of the "Soylent Bar" due to reports of gastrointestinal illness. On October 27, 2016, the company halted sales of Soylent Powder 1.6 as a cautionary measure.
• ahoy 10y ago
  Is the restaurant industry in need of saving, from a restaurant owner's or diner's perspective? I'm fully on the "tipping is terrible for everyone involved" side, but I wonder if the framing here is based on anything.
  • stingraycharles 10y ago
    There's a great Freakonomics podcast about this subject: https://itunes.apple.com/nl/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519?l=en&mt=2&i=1000378216941 https://itunes.apple.com/nl/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354... The bottom line is that from the perspective of the diner, it will not really matter (quality remains equal), but from the perspective of the restaurant, things will get a lot better.
    • smhg 10y ago
      2 actually. Also available outside iTunes: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-n... http://freakonomics.com/podcast/danny-meyer/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/danny-meyer/
  • colechristensen 10y ago
    It certainly seems like it should be more efficient for 100 people to eat dinner in a restaurant than for 40 people to cook 100 meals. (100 / average household size (~2.5) = ~40) And yet it's considerably more expensive. Because, it seems, a considerable amount of the cost of restaurant food goes to the overhead costs of the real-estate owners and the financial system. This is both directly and indirectly (the cost of the rent or financing of the restaurant space + the portion of employee wages that go to renting their homes + the cost of everything the employees purchase going towards rent etc.) In other words it seems a disproportional amount of our economy goes towards people that own instead of people that do. How do you solve that though? Increase rent-seeking taxes (interest, rentals, etc) and lower income taxes? (basically lowering significantly the benefits from buying things you don't use yourself)
    • 10y ago
• joshu 10y ago
  editorialized title. Tsk. the tipping situation sucks, but the larger economic problem is effectively due to rent extraction by the landlord. when a restaurant can't afford the rent that, say, a bank can, they are effectively priced out of the market. All excess returns and up going to the land owner. This effectively becomes a variant of baumol's cost disease. Once again, return on capital trumps return on labor. I remember, many years ago, living in Manhattan: in a short period of time, for restaurants on each corner of an intersection were replaced with four banks. A vibrant spot died.
  • kiba 10y ago
    This is why I support the land-value tax. Landlords would only be taxed on the value of their land and not the property they're building. They're heavily incentivized to develop as much as possible to pay tax, since land-value tax doesn't care about the cost of any improvement you make.
    • samastur 10y ago
      This wouldn't change landlord's incentives and therefore unlikely to change the outcome.
      • kiba 10y ago
        You would need to explain that to me.
        • smallnamespace 10y ago
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Efficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Efficiency A landlord's decision to improve or not improve the property only depends on 1) the cost of the improvements and 2) the expected revenue stream from that improvement, neither of which are affected by an LVT, since the LVT only cares about the unimproved value of the lot.
          • 10y ago
• JackPoach 10y ago
  This idea was suggested long time ago - it doesn't work.
  • cmurf 10y ago
    What do you mean by "it doesn't work" exactly? No tipping in restaurants does work in many countries where people are paid a living wage from the outset, from Norway to Czech Republic. And it works fine in many other industries in the U.S. where there's no tipping.
  • grzm 10y ago
    Danny Meyer's Union Square Hospitality Group has a no tipping policy. I believe he's one of the most successful restauranteurs in the world. "Year of Upheaval for Restaurants That Ended Tipping" http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/dining/restaurants-no-tipping-service.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/dining/restaurants-no-tipp... It's taking some restructuring of how the restaurants are being run, which is to be expected. USHG is also in a good position to try this, as they have relatively deep pockets, but this, as well as how many other societies don't have tipping at restaurants belies the idea that "it doesn't work". As an aside, I'm surprised that the article makes no mention of USHG.
• deleted 10y ago
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• legohead 10y ago
  Went to a revolving sushi bar tonight. Everything was automated. They even had a touchpad where you can put in orders (like miso ramen soup), which get delivered by a belt. The only thing the servers did was sit us and bring us water. We asked them to replace a leaking soy sauce container and they never did. We tipped 0$ -- there was essentially no service. I kinda felt bad, but talking it over with my wife, I couldn't really find a reason to tip.
  • micaksica 10y ago
    Were you actually requested to tip? If so, it seems strange. When I've gone to many kaiten-zushi places it is usually stated that you shouldn't tip at all (in Japan you don't). There used to be one like that downtown Berkeley off Durant that closed a few years back.
  • surrealvortex 10y ago
    I also don't understand tipping at food carts. Customers stand in a line to pay and get their food, and are also expected to tip (either via Square or through tip jars). Edit: the expectation is generally implicit, and while standing in line, I can't help but notice that most customers hit the minimum tip percentage on Square, which is usually 15%
    • lpr22 10y ago
      I never hit that minimum thing. I'll give $1 every once in a while because they're friendly and the town is so expensive, but the food prices already definitely reflect that, and there is no service, so /shrug
    • zeroer 10y ago
      IIRC with a few extra clicks on Square you can find a menu that will give you a "no tip" option. It's definitely hidden on purpose.
      • idunno246 10y ago
        ive never seen a square display without a no tip option, and I'm pretty sure the restaurant is who decides what options are there
• lefstathiou 10y ago
  I've traveled the world and have come to the conclusion that diners are better off in a tipping environment. Realize this is purely anecdotal but time and time again we have come to the realization that incentives matter and incentivizing good service makes sense to me (and I shouldn't have to order a bottle of wine at lunch to get it). If all someone is going to do is play telephone from one side of the room to the other, no thanks, I'd rather save the 20% and order off an iPad.
  • alooPotato 10y ago
    I would kill to order off an iPad
    • isostatic 10y ago
      My favourite luncheon place in Singapore has iPads at every table. So much more relaxed then a waiter.
      • crdoconnor 10y ago
        Which place is that? I remember when Ichiban switched to iPads and optimistically fired about 30% of their wait staff, presumably after drinking the kool aid. The service was horrendous until they hired them back.
        • isostatic 10y ago
          It's in our office block (aperia, well north of the cdb). Not sure what it's called, but makes lunch a breeze and means I'll usually go there rather than grabbing a sandwich from Spinellis coffee shop
    • throwaway6845 10y ago
      I would kill to _pay_ with an iPad. Absolute biggest hate at restaurants: waiting too long for the bill. I have eaten. I have enjoyed it. I now want to go somewhere else for a drink, or catch my train home, or whatever. Don't make me wait.
• surrealvortex 10y ago
  Unless everyone decides to kill tips all at once, this will never work out. No server will work for a fixed 20% increment when they have the potential to get a lot more than that, especially on Saturday nights. There have been plenty of examples of this not working out [1]. [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/05/15/478096516/why-restaurants-are-ditching-the-switch-to-no-tipping http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/05/15/478096516/why...
  • alkonaut 10y ago
    The articles mentions a raise of 15 to 30%. A waiter who makes 40% tips would probably accept a no-tip job at a 30% raise (Assuming the 40% tips weren't very stable).
    • surrealvortex 10y ago
      At least some of the 30% would go to back-end staff. The article I linked to presents a case where the cooks etc had a raise because of this.
  • deleted 10y ago
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  • csydas 10y ago
    Very rarely do I cite market forces to address social problems, but to me this feels like an appropriate situation for it. Restaurants are constantly getting applications, and many who do not do well on high-tip nights will appreciate the stable paycheck. I won't put non-sense statistics to it, but while many servers do earn huge paychecks from tips, many others scrape by and fight for hours at minimum wage and have the constant threat of termination looming over them when they aren't able to get enough tips to cover their wages and the restaurant has to pay the difference. (Assuming the restaurant is even operating on the level) There will be a period of social adjustment and probably some resentment as tipping restaurant hold-outs have servers that brag about huge payouts. But over time the more stable paycheck will be more reliable and better for servers, and while some servers may leave over lack of tips, they will soon find it difficult to find a place that does have a tipping policy.
• shadowmint 10y ago
  You might argue that this is stupid, because it's a catch 22; unless everyone does it, you lose as a business if you do it; nothing motivates people more than raw dollar value and you'll either lose your staff or have to put prices up to pay them more. ...but, you look at Uber, and there's no tipping there; and it's great for the consumer, and (astonishingly) drivers seem fine with it, despite objectively being exploited blatantly and paid less than taxi drivers. So, maybe there is something to be said for an all digital disruption to the food scene, somehow... Honestly, I can't see how it would work though; you have to actually demonstrate that your new 'no tip' solution works somehow, not just armchair philosophize about some way to 'magically make tipping disappear?'
  • chipperyman573 10y ago
    Uber also pays drivers more than they charge users to begin with.
    • shadowmint 10y ago
      Sure, I'm just saying, it's clear you can make a business out of this sort of thing. Whether it's profitable, that's another question, clearly. Like I said, I can't imagine how it would work; but maybe there is some kind of like, 'you subscribe to a service, the service pays out 'tip equivalents', you don't have to tip' scheme that might make sense there somewhere. Basically, it's not totally implausible there might actually be a business that solves the whole tipping thing somehow.
      • oddlyaromatic 10y ago
        I think you were right about the catch 22 thing, which is the core problem that this article misses. Uber doesn't have tipping but don't you rate your rides in a way that can ultimately reduce the amount of work that driver gets? It has the punishment inverse of tipping.
  • notimetorelax 10y ago
    Uber might not be the best example as they are losing money like crazy to incentivise drivers and customers.
• sundvor 10y ago
  This works perfectly well in Australia, where tipping is entirely optional and not necessarily expected - however can still be done, if you feel like it. In the advent of tap based payments especially - which is now ubiquitous in Australia - and you just tap your phone / card / device to the terminal which already shows the bill, I'd say tipping happens mainly in higher end restaurants. There's certainly no lack of restaurants in Melbourne - with plenty of people enjoying the vast array of options for eating out. I for one am happy to not have to worry about tipping on everyday meals, however on special occasions I will add say 5-10% if particularly pleased with the service.
  • Galaxeblaffer 10y ago
    This ! This is exactly the same in Denmark. Tips are included in the price, but it is still custom to tip if the service is good and you can afford it usually around 5%.
    • Svip 10y ago
      No, tips are not included in the price. I think you are confusing tips with salary. And tips in Denmark seldom tends to have any relation to the price of the meal.
      • Galaxeblaffer 10y ago
        Yes.. tips are technically included in the price since the waiters union made an agreement with the employers union that waiters salaries should be covered fully by the employer. And yes tips often has a relation to the price of the meal that again often has a relation to the level of service.. If you are just out of school or still studying then it might be different for you which makes the system even better since you are not expected to even tip and therefore pay what you feel like.
• coldtea 10y ago
  >Now what if we were to magically make tipping disappear? Think about the diner for a second. What if, by removing tips from your restaurant, you’ll actually end up delighting more guests, improving your food, and retaining employees? Well, I've dined all over the world (not an American btw), and the US had the most friendly and alert waiting stuff, which I guess it's at least party because of the tipping. Sure, in expensive restaurants all around the world you can get good service and waiters that always hover nearby. But in the US that's also true for the neighborhood diner.
  • gkoberger 10y ago
    Nah, it's more of a cultural thing. In the US, waitstaff is expected to be attentive and stop by constantly. In other countries, they're expected to leave you alone unless you need them, so you can enjoy your meal without being annoyed. For example, in many countries, they'll never approach you or bring you a check until you flag them down to ask. I think it's less about tipping, and more about customs.
    • GordonS 10y ago
      Totally agree with this; customers in different countries have different expectations. Personally, when I've eaten in the US I've found the waiting staff to be annoying - I just want to be left alone to eat, not pestered with fake smiles and boring pleasantries because they want a tip.
    • concerned_user 10y ago
      That actually might explain the problem. I live in EU, at my local cafe place which is quite large ~40 tables I usually see 2 cooks, 1 barista and 3 servers even when its 90% full in the evening (1-2 servers in the morning or during day when its 50% full). Yes, wait times are quite long, usually takes good 20 minutes and you only interact with a server 3 times at most, when you make an order, they bring you food and when they bring you receipt. I can see that to provide the level of service described, frequent checking in on tables etc you would need probably 5-6 servers so the costs would go up significantly. Regarding customs, yes I definitely prefer servers to get me my food and get out of the way, and it is considered normal. I mainly go out to eat to spend time with friends/colleagues and no to eat, so I guess in Europe cafe is mostly seen as a place to have a chat rather than eat. I never saw waiters actually try and turn tables even when the place is full and there are some tables where people finished eating, paid for the food and just sit there chatting for a good hour. Yes it is considered rude to do that when place is full but it is more of cultural thing.
• MrQuincle 10y ago
  From personal experience (just anecdotal) I would say service in the US is much better than for example in the Netherlands (my own country). I think you'll have to think of other things than service to make this happen. Other options: + Start with clear signs to indicate for other businesses (cabs, hairdresser) that tips are not expected. + I will assume that you pay the 20% to your personnel anyway. So basically you offer a guilt-free paying experience. We will genuinely be happy by whatever you pay. + The international card. Communicate that you don't want that Americans are the only ones paying 20% more. + Build up a name as employer. Advertise with that. + Mix and match your service offerings with others, being a library, place to date, etc where tipping is less obvious. + Have people pay online before the meal. Subscriptions is also possible. + Uber-experience. Do not pay the restaurant directly, but have intermediate company taking care of it.
  • avar 10y ago
    Service in Spain is also much better than The Netherlands, I'd say on par with US service. I think Dutch service is just particularly bad, and tipping clearly doesn't explain the difference since Spanish service is so much better without the expectation of tipping.
    • deleted 10y ago
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  • misja111 10y ago
    I'm from the Netherlands but have lived in Finland and Switzerland as well, and in both those countries service is better than in the Netherlands. In Finland nobody gives tips so it has nothing to do with that, just that, generally speaking, the Dutch don't seem the most service minded people.
• danielhooper 10y ago
  Tipping is great because it provides the customer with some leverage to pay a price they feel is fair. Not to mention it allows many many many many people to live somewhat comfortably despite working in what would be considered a lowly occupation. We haven't even talked about how service workers are salesman and saleswomen who are provided the opportunity to be compensated more for greater achievement, and the business in turn as well. It sounds like the people who dislike tipping are the same people who struggle to stand up for themselves to salespeople, and feel pressured to pay extra just to remove themselves from the social setting. I don't mean to be accusatory, but I believe it's likely this is a major motivating factor to dislike tipping despite the complete advantage it gives to you as a consumer.
  • srinathrajaram 10y ago
    I can and have walked out without tipping when the service was bad. When I go out to eat, I do so to unwind. The implicit pressure to tip detracts from that experience and I dislike it. It is not a question of what I am capable of doing. It is about not having to deal with the unfairness of an average or a poor waiter demanding to be compensated.
  • waiseristy 10y ago
    You bring up a huge an often overlooked point. The owner makes the same amount of money if a customer chooses whether or not to tip. But stands to lose money if a customer is unable to afford the meal and ends up not coming in. In a business where every dime counts, it adds up.
  • EliRivers 10y ago
    Complete advantage? I've seen those dickwads, toying with the wait staff to make themselves feel like a big man. How about disliking tipping because it's demeaning to everyone involved. People relying on my charity to make their rent, despite working a full time job. What kind of messed up system is this?
• egocodedinsol 10y ago
  This essay left me confused - it starts by suggesting that tipping is bad, and that raising prices, possibly above the cost of tipping, will bring a net win. I was very curious to read about why. But then the essay shifted to two seemingly unrelated reasons: (1) if you make the food delicious and the service great you can charge more, and (2) if you pay the kitchen staff more, you get less turnover/happier cooks. These last two don't support the central thesis - why does ending tipping help cooks get paid more? At the end of the day, fixing all other costs, cooks get paid more if servers get paid less, whether that's from ending tipping or increasing chef salary. And obviously making delicious food would be great, but what does that have to do with tipping? If you end tipping, suddenly everyone will try harder? An article examining the effects of increasing chef pay at the expense of service pay would be very interesting to me. I would gladly sacrifice some professionalism in service for increased food quality, and I wonder if others would, too.
• justosophy 10y ago
  Tipping isn't a thing in Australia. I'm not sure I'd know the first thing for the right way to tip if I visited the US. And yet we seem to enjoy high quality food, and I believe our hospitality wages are higher in general. ( perhaps this is all anecdotal, but tipping has never seemed to make sense to someone not in the mix of it )
  • simonrobb 10y ago
    Tipping is a thing in Australia, but it's not the pseudo-compulsary thing it is in the US. We do pay significantly higher hospitality wages here; nobody is going to starve if you don't tip, and nobody is going to hold it against you. However if you receive excellent service, it's customary to demonstrate your thanks with a bit extra on the bill, and it will be appreciated.
• alkonaut 10y ago
  I think the title should say "Having an expected floor for tipping of 20% and tips of 30% for excellent service, is not a better incentive for good service than a floor of 0% and 10% for good service". Removing (banning) tipping all together in a restaurant is doable, but as an owner you may want to ensure you have incentives left for employers (e.g. let customers anonymously rate the service after online bookings and hand out bonuses etc). I prefer the normal system where staff is paid in full (so no part of their expected income is tips) and customers tip for good service. This is how it works in most of the world.
• innocentoldguy 10y ago
  I agree with the author. Having lived in Japan for a number of years, where tipping isn't done, I can say that the dining experience is far superior. Servers don't have to feel like beggars and patrons don't have to feel like their being panhandled. I also agree that nothing screams "I'm a sphincter!" quite like asking for a 20% tip on a muffin, or a cup of coffee. Unless you physically came to me, got my order, and brought my food to me, you don't deserve a damn tip. Another thing that restaurant owners do that is deserving of a throat-punch is to confiscate tips and dole them out to other workers, or divvy them up evenly amongst the servers. When I give someone a tip, it is because they've done a good job, and I want to show THAT PERSON my gratitude. I'm not remotely interested in helping the restaurant owner make payroll. That's not what my tip is for. Tipping sucks and it is grossly abused throughout the restaurant industry. I'd be happy to see it die a deserved death.
  • snicky 10y ago
    No offence, but how does physically coming to you and bringing your food justifies paying additional 10-20%? As mentioned above, I live in EU and almost never tip, because I cannot really understand this cultural thing. Why should I pay a special tip to sbd who brings my food and not clerks in a bakery or a garbage track drivers? I'm being serious here, I'm trying to understand why people do this. Is there any other reason than "the custom"?
• pzh 10y ago
  The problem with no tipping, in my experince (especially in Europe), is that waiters aren't incentivized to turn tables. If you go to a popular spot for dinner that happens to be completely full and ask for a table, the waiter will usually shrug their shoulders and say 'Sorry, try again tomorrow.' Usually, there is no concept of a waiting list or a waiting time estimate, because diners are conditioned that they can spend 3 or 4 hours over a bottle of wine, and there would be no pressure to pay and leave, so waiters find it impossible to make any promises regarding when a table would free up. Additionally, the waitstaff won't be paid extra to make an effort and try to serve more tables on a given night (being on a fixed salaries), so they'll be quite leisurely about their business. Of course, if you happen to be the one who got there early, and you like having 3-hour meals while chatting with your friends, it's the perfect arrangement, because nobody will pressure you to eat, pay, and leave in 30-40 mins as usually happens in the US.
  • sgift 10y ago
    > Of course, if you happen to be the one who got there early, and you like having 3-hour meals while chatting with your friends, it's the perfect arrangement, because nobody will pressure you to eat, pay, and leave in 30-40 mins as usually happens in the US. If I'd like to be pressured to leave asap I would go to a fast food chain. So, this doesn't sound like a problem at all, more like a feature.
    • pzh 10y ago
      It is a nice feature unless you're on the other end of the deal, walking from one completely full restaurant to another looking for a table. In a sense, it's an inefficiency because a table may free up shortly after you leave, but the staff wouldn't care to predict that.
      • oblio 10y ago
        You could call and make a reservation.
        • 10y ago
• dustinmoris 10y ago
  Oh my god this guy is a freaking genius! He totally cracked the restaurant code! > "Make your food delicious." No shit? That could possibly make customers happy? > "Next, consider cooking an art form." Aha, okay... > "Go ahead: Kill tips and list a fair price for your bowl of brisket pho, grilled lamb shawarma, or omakase." Haha, okay... well if it's this easy... how could everyone get it so wrong? Damn! --- FYI - I never felt uncomfortable to tip in a restaurant. I go even as far as that I don't dine in restaurants which have a no tip policy or where the tips go to the owner instead of the staff. Also, restaurants already charge a fair price. It's one of the longest running industries and they do still pretty well, so clearly they already ask a "fair" price for their phos. The wage for a chef or other staff is not determined by the menu price but by the market rate. If you have more people who can cook than people who need a cook then it's a bit tough isn't it.
• deleted 10y ago
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• ezoe 10y ago
  As a person who was born and living in a country which has no tipping culture. The tipping sucks. I should have been fully informed how much should I have to pay before I purchase something or some service. Any extra demand from agreed amount should be illegal. I also don't want to waste my precious time on paying the tip for calculating tax. The worker's salary is a employer's responsibility. If the the worker become underpaid without the tipping, then the worker is underpaid by the employer.
  • srinathrajaram 10y ago
    >The worker's salary is a employer's responsibility. If the the worker become underpaid without the tipping, then the worker is underpaid by the employer. This! Tipping is nothing but the employer passing the buck and guilting the customer.
    • radmuzom 10y ago
      I find it very funny when people argue that increasing the minimum wage would increase costs for consumers (I don't necessarily disagree; in some cases it would, whether that is a bad thing is a different matter). I personally would pay a higher price, no tips and ensure that the workers serving can meet their basic needs via wages alone.
      • vkjv 10y ago
        Just an FYI, but if a tipped employee does not meet the minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference. https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm
        • lostphilosopher 10y ago
          This idea of "making up the difference" comes up in every convo on tipping. The counter point is usually that it doesn't happen. (Debate ensues...) But even if it happened FOR SURE EVERY TIME. What an inefficient system! Rather than just paying the minimum wage up front, with predictable, projectable costs, businesses spend person hours on calculating tips, hours worked, per employee, etc. And then have to pay (potentially) widely varying amounts at the end of the cycle. I get that some customers and some servers like the practice of tipping. But why not require employers to pay (at least) the minimum wage, period. You could still tip if you want to, and an you can still try to earn a tip if you want to. But now it's more like a bonus, gravy, than the difference between rent and no-rent.
• downandout 10y ago
  I lean toward agreeing with this article, however laws would probably have to change in order for it to work. Raising prices, say by 20%, and passing that money directly to servers is fine IMO. That would not only eliminate tipping, but really invest employees in the success of the restaurant. Further, the restaurant could decide the "tip" portion of the price on expensive alcohol as well, eliminating the ridiculousness of calculating the tip for the food and alcohol separately (many people don't tip the full 15-20% on very expensive bottles of wine, for example). Where this falls down is that tax would then be charged on the raised prices, meaning we're now paying a tax on the "tip". I think many people would find that hard to swallow. So it's a good idea, but local and state tax laws would have to change.
• okonomiyaki3000 10y ago
  Having lived in Japan for a long time, I kind of dread visiting America because of the whole nonsense of tipping (and lot of other reasons, really). There's simply no concept of it here and yet the service is excellent. I don't know what the typical wage is but I know people who work in service jobs and seem to have a lot more disposable income than their counterparts in the US. I also know people who work as servers and bartenders in the US and (predictably) they hate the idea of ending tipping even if it means a higher base wage. I suspect they're wrong but then I don't have to walk in their shoes.
  • turndown 10y ago
    I've worked as both a server and a delivery driver, and even after having left both jobs I'd still be in favor of tipping because I think it incentivizes the worker to do well at their job. The US simply doesn't have the same culture Japan has. That said, travelling to the US shouldn't be handicapped by a fear of tipping. Don't tip, or do, but not going because of it is an unfortunate choice.
    • Annatar 10y ago
      The US simply doesn't have the same culture Japan has. While this is true, it also sounds as an excuse not to improve. It is clearly time for the culture of United States to change, and not just change, but strive to change for the better. Punting won't do that. There is too much punting going on everywhere, which is one of the reasons the world now finds itself in the problems it finds itself in. Please help stop the vicious downward spiral. Not punting on problems is a low hanging fruit.
    • zuppy 10y ago
      I don't think it does. Tipping is expected even if a bad service is being provided. I live in a country where you have to give tips everywhere and everywhere the service is awful. Why not be fair and pay the employee well (and also pay taxes for that amount). edit: I was thinking about how to award good employees and I think it's simple: give a small paper form at the end, where people will provide ratings for the service provided. Not all of them will fill them, of course, but I think you will get some feedback about who are your best employees and who are the worst. Also, regarding tips, how do they help the kitchen staff (in the restaurants, you can find other examples on other businesses)? That sistem isn't fair.
• untangle 10y ago
  Federal law and that of some states allows a lower minimum wage for tipped employees. [1] So the financial delta for the restaurant may be bigger than that described. Blame the powerful restaurateur lobby. [2] [1] https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm [2] http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/02/464852535/forked-rates-restaurants-on-how-they-treat-their-workers http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/02/464852535/for...
• rdl 10y ago
  I used to hate tipping but now I love it. I spend >100 nights/yr in hotels, and tipping the bellman/doorman well on the way in is one of the best investments in a good stay (calibrating tips for the point where he gives you his name, and ideally phone number, for "if you need anything else"; $10 in most third tier US cities; $20 in a place like New York). Las Vegas basically runs on $5s and $20s -- everything from "valet lot is full but we can keep your car right here for you" to moving carts full of pelican cases to getting vehicle maintenance done to whatever. In the Middle East/Central Asia I am very happy to be "the American who tips and is polite" vs "the American who is worth $5k if we call that guy...". In China I had hotel staff literally spend the afternoon with me navigating Beijing police to recover a $5k loss (successfully; btw Beijing tourist police are awesome too.) Tipping reasonably well at restaurants/cafes you frequent (I try to pick a couple per city) makes getting tables, impromptu meetings, etc much easier to set up. If you view tipping as an obligation it sucks, but once you view it as a chance to get what you want it is great.
  • manicdee 10y ago
    But when you realise that tipping is bribing public officials to get service that regular taxpayers do not get, doesn't that take the shine off?
    • rdl 10y ago
      I don't consider a hotel bellman to be a public official, despite the Pinochetian uniform. (In the case of Beijing, the police were just friendly and no tip was expected. The hotel staff I'd tipped (concierge, etc) were the preparation; it was the #4 guy at hotel (director of guest experience; reports to GM) who helped me. He is senior enough that I didn't tip him, but did get him rewarded through Starwood, and will bring him a suitable gift next time I'm in Beijing -- presumably a bottle of alcohol of some kind not commonly available in China, or some other US thing)
    • psyc 10y ago
      Have you ever actually bribed someone? It's fun. Makes you feel like you're in the movies.
• musha68k 10y ago
  Wage slavery is especially rampant in the food and beverage industry where low margins and high competition are the norm. Including "tips" (you could still tip for extraordinary service) as well as sales tax in the price might be the first step towards more transparency and fair pay for everyone involved (owners to waiters) in what essentially amounts to a luxury service anyway.
• byuu 10y ago
  It's amusing the way everyone who lives in tipping countries swears by how much better it is and how much they prefer it. And conversely, people who live in no-tipping countries say the same about their system. Most people simply like what they're used to, and don't bother considering the other side of the argument. In my own case, I live in a tipping country. I find that I have maybe ten restaurants I frequent. And since I've been here for twelve years, I constantly run into the same waitstaff. Incredulously, I once ran into the same waiter at three separate restaurants in my time here. If I were to give one of them a bad tip for bad service, there's a good probability I'd end up having them serve me again, and that does not sound pleasant. So the tipping is basically mandatory for me, unless I'm willing to never eat at a place again. And to date, I've left no tip exactly once for a waiter who took our drink orders, came back ten minutes later to say there was a problem with the machines so we asked for water and took our order, the backstaff brought out the meal, and we finished the meal without ever having received anything to drink, and had to ask the staff at the front for our check because the waiter never came back. Another time we left a bad tip and never went back to a restaurant that made us wait over 30 minutes in a near empty place before anyone took our order. The staff knew we weren't served, and the longer they waited, the more awkward it became, and we kind of both decided we weren't going to leave until they served us. It's also strongly worth considering some of the racial undertones of tipping. It's pretty well regarded among waitstaff here in the US that black people don't tip well, and as a result, they receive worse service, which in return leads to worse tips. It's a self-fulfilling circle. I can imagine myself as an employee. If tips are resulting in huge paydays, I'd obviously prefer that system. But if I were constantly getting highly variable paychecks, that would be a big problem as my landlord wouldn't take a smaller payment because business was slow this week. A steady income provides much-needed stability. I can also imagine myself as a customer. A tipped waiter would try to upsell me more and push wine on me. Yet a non-tipped waiter might not be as attentive since there's nothing in it for them to do a better job. Weighing all the pros and cons, I'm personally of the opinion that we should abolish tipping, abolish the $x.99 bullshit pricing and just say $x+1, stop charging $2-3 for a ten-cent soda to subsidize the food prices, and roll taxes into the prices so if it says $10, you pay $10, period. Leave "how'd we do?" cards that customers drop off into a sealed box on the way out to control for good service. But, I doubt I'll live to see any of that here.
• mibollma 10y ago
  He takes China as an example but from my experience service often sucks in average restaurants in China. I would have often preferred to show my satisfaction with the service through my tip or lack thereof as I'm used to from my native country.
• throwaway30102 10y ago
• throwaway30102 10y ago
  I'm astonished by the number of people here who feel some sort of psychological pressure or discomfort from tipping. Just relax, smile and give (or don't) something like 10%. It isn't that big of a deal. EDIT: Apparently I offended someone who is unable to function in the real world.
  • hayd 10y ago
    In the UK or rest of Europe that's fine, in the US 10% is grossly offensive. (Which IMO is insane but it is what it is.)
• aethant 10y ago
  I'm assuming you've never been to a country that doesn't have tipping, or were shielded from service in such a country, if you were. Customer service in these places is horrible. Why? Because it makes no difference to them if you are pleased or not. They could care less. If doing some simple math is so difficult, your phone has a calculator, or ask for a pen and paper.
  • Munksgaard 10y ago
    I don't know where you've been, or how you've been treated, but I've had many great dining experiences outside of the US, as well as many terrible ones inside the US.
    • dexterdog 10y ago
      But you have a better feedback loop where there is tipping involved.
  • EliRivers 10y ago
    So not true. I don't tip the checkout staff at the supermarket. Service is fine. I don't tip my accountant. Service is fine. I don't tip the car valet. Service is fine. I don't tip the waiter. Service is fine. Why should the waiter provide poor service uniquely amongst all these untippes service providers? If you experienced poor service in a non-tipping culture, it's not because the server knew there was no tip coming. It's because you had a bad server. The evidences indicates that tipping does not improve service. http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/psychology-agrees-with-danny-meyer-tipping-doesn-t-work.html http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/psychology-agrees-with-d... ... and many more. Especially in cultures where it's expected. I see people get awful service sometimes and then they tip. Tipping in restaurants in the US is not about service. It's about being able to pay employees below minimum wage and make them dance like monkeys to pay the rent.
• kasey_junk 10y ago
  The last issue "Chef's will love you" has a lot less to do with tipping or not (personally I'm against tipping and wish it would go away, but its not why back of house staff get stiffed). Back of house staff, in the US, cannot tip share. Its against the law. Assumedly this was originally meant as a worker protection, but in recent years, especially at higher end establishments, it acts as a wage limit for the people making the food. We should change the labor laws for restaurants to allow for both worker protections (restaurants are notorious labor law violators) and to allow back of house staff to get some of the tip income.
  • mcv 10y ago
    Those are bizarre laws. I'm not sure if Netherland has any laws on tipping and sharing them, but I think some places share their tips with the entire staff. If you can tip the waiter for excellent service, then you should also be able to tip the kitchen staff if the food is particularly excellent.
    • kasey_junk 10y ago
      The labor laws in the USA are extremely bizarre. Wait staff have a different, much lower, minimum wage than other workers. The restaurant is required to pay them the regular minimum wage if their tips do not make up the difference, and this is a source of many labor complaints. For most wait staff this is not an issue. Their tips put them well above minimum wage status, but that is one of the big drivers of the tipping culture in the USA. Many of us know (as in had to pay our rent that way) that if you don't tip the waiter 20-25% it dramatically impacts their income. But that money cannot be shared with the back of house staff. For high end restaurants this has a real impact on their ability to keep young kitchen professionals (and its also a driver of why so many undocumented workers work in low end kitchens, its a very poorly paying job in almost all cases).
      • greedo 10y ago
        The restaurant I worked in during the 80's pooled tips, and both the chef and the line/prep cooks shared in the pool. I think even the lowly dishwasher was included, though we all gave him part of our own tips before putting them in the pool.
• padobson 10y ago
  Tipping is essential. It's the most common generosity exercise in everyday life. It gives us a chance to flex a muscle we don't flex often enough. We should be doing it more, not less. We should tip the cashier at the grocery store and our mechanics and our mail carriers and the referees at high school sporting events. Paypal tip jars and Humble Bundle's Pay What You Want model are two examples of tipping on the web that I'd like to see more often. The more nudges toward generosity, the better.
  • Cyph0n 10y ago
    Right, but it shouldn't be mandatory. The issue with the current model is that it's not really a gratuity but rather a necessity. To be quite frank, tipping does not make me feel generous at all.
  • d0100 10y ago
    As long as it's not required.
  • grenoire 10y ago
    Tipping is for cases where you are delighted by the service to the point that you feel the server deserves additional compensation for their work. When it turns into a hidden cost (like tax in tax-excluding prices) it is not okay, and it is not generosity. It's the real life equivalent of dark patterns.
  • peterkelly 10y ago
    > Tipping is essential. It's the most common generosity exercise in everyday life As someone who comes from a country where tipping is not part of the culture (Australia), I'm struggling to understand this. What are we missing out on by not having it?
    • lupin_sansei 10y ago
      Notice in Australia only higher end places have table service and not that great service either. That's what we miss out on in Australia. We have much more self service cafes and much less attentive service when we do get it.
• ecopoesis 10y ago
  I'd love for the US to move away from our bizarre tipping culture. However, if we do it'll remove one of the simpler douchebag cues we have. Person who leaves exactly 15%: douchebag. Person with leaves no tip: douchecanoe. Person who leaves a penny: doucecraft-carrier USS Doucheprise. Tipping is such an easy filter for the people you want to spend time with.
• dclowd9901 10y ago
  It doesn't matter. People will _still_ tip. While the vast majority of us _hate_ tipping, there are some out there who absolutely live by it emotionally (I'm talking about the tippers here), and maintain a healthy amount of guilt if they don't tip. Case in point: One of the biggest wins of Uber was to remove the tip concept from getting a ride. It made the whole experience effortless and seamless. Portland being Portland, however, has drivers who post placards in their cars suggesting tipping (against what I thought was company policy), and riders buy into it, as you can't possibly exist in Portland without constantly trying to be the nicest person on the planet. Mark my words: if this happens, restaurants will charge 15-30% more and we will simply start tipping on _top_ of that. Hell, even during my last trip to Germany, I noticed an expectation for tips.
  • jghn 10y ago
    I've never tipped an uber driver however one only needs to spend some time in /r/uberdrivers to learn that many drivers around the country actually do expect tips. It has nothing with Portland being Portland. They'll also point out that Uber hasn't said "no tipping" for a long time, although IIRC the drivers aren't allowed to ask for one. I completely agree with your last two statements though.
  • kevhsu 10y ago
    Uber drivers are allowed to put up signs soliciting tips in some regions as they won a couple lawsuits. I choose to tip drivers when they provide extra services or goods. If a driver gives me a bottle of water or lifts heavy luggage for me, I'll sometimes give him some money.
• makecheck 10y ago
  Tipping is also extremely inconsistent in at least three ways. One is the idea of a percentage: how does that make any sense? When I go out for a rare nice dinner and the tip alone ends up being $20 or so, I ask myself: did this person/restaurant really do any more than the server of the last entire meal that cost $20? Of course not, and yet somehow it would look weird to pay $40 for a $20 meal with tip, for the same service? Another inconsistency is where to tip. Yes, tip at restaurants but what about the zillion other places that sometimes explicitly and often implicitly expect tips? Do we have to slip a dollar to just about everyone in case they expect a tip? And finally, the inconsistency in who tips. Sometimes I tip generously because I assume there will be other people who just don’t tip at all, or tip poorly, and I feel some obligation to balance the pot. I don’t know why, it just seems like the right thing. It would make a lot more sense to end all these charades and just show exact prices. (While we’re at it, let’s make sure utility companies do the same, up front, no fees.)
  • throwaway2016a 10y ago
    > One is the idea of a percentage I've always found this odd too. Say for a special occasion I decide to go to a high end steakhouse... mid-range bottle of wine, two nice steaks, a'la cart sides, appetizer, and desert we're at $500. That's $100 at 20%. Did that person really do more work than the person I tipped $10 at Chili's (an american casual family restaurant)? > Another inconsistency is where to tip I usually end up spending 20 minutes Googling "what to tip _______" before going anywhere or getting an deliveries.
    • ydt 10y ago
      Here's the thing. I worked in the restaurant business in various capacities all through college. As a cash transaction, it will come as no surprise that a lot of tips go unreported as income. From time to time the IRS will decide the reported income from a restaurant seems low and audit the staff. It was generally understood that if you had reported 10% of your sales as a server/bartender as tip income you'd be ok. If not you were in trouble (and this happened to people I know). So if you tip $20 on a $500 dollar tab because it's the same amount of work as $100 dollar tab. your server will most likely still claim $50 in income and be at about break even once the taxes are paid on it.
• CodeWriter23 10y ago
  And here's why this guy is wrong. Next time you're in a restaurant getting mediocre service, ask if the tips are pooled and divided equally.
• ip_bans_fix_you 10y ago
  I have to laugh at people who wring their hands over tipping at restaurants. The guilt and anxiety that the custom of tipping induces is kind of silly. There's a simple calculus to tipping that some people just can't seem to stomach: Tip based on the amount they'll spit in your food. That's what you're paying for. Clean food. In general, the reality is that tips only improve service after a customer or group has been recognized as a good source of tips. Tips are bribery, not commission. Once tips are recognized for what they are, the motives for all participants becomes clearer. If they're never going to see you again, a good tip is rendered meaningless.
  • j2bax 10y ago
    Sorry but this is utterly cynical hogwash. I've tipped very well at places I've gone because a waiter was extremely enthusiastic, helpful and passionate about their service. They mastered the menu offering and offered helpful information as I was making my meal choices. They treated me like a guest in their home. Their attitude toward their work had nothing to do with me as a first time visitor in most circumstances.
• bradleyankrom 10y ago
  Anecdotal, but there's a supermarket chain in the Southeastern U.S. (Publix) that pays their employees a living wage, provides health coverage, and makes a point of letting the customer know that staff (even the folks that load your groceries into your car) doesn't accept tips. The food costs are a little bit higher than, say, Walmart, but closer to that end of the spectrum if Whole Foods is the opposite end. I don't know how well that model would translate to the restaurant industry but, personally, I would give preference to establishments that opted for that model than the current $2something/hour minimum wage + tips.
  • misja111 10y ago
    I'm from Europe so I'm not very familiar with the tipping etiquette in the USA, but if I understand you properly, you're saying that in supermarkets like Walmart, people give tips to the personell? Like to the cashier? That's quite a culture difference with Europe, here they would think that you were crazy if you would do such a thing ...
    • bradleyankrom 10y ago
      No, sorry if I wasn't clear. I used Walmart as an example for low cost but their employees typically aren't tipped. There are other, smaller (local or regional chains) grocery stores where employees can accept tips, however.
    • zimzam 10y ago
      In many grocery stores the checkout lane have two people: the cashier and a 'bagger' who will bag the groceries for you and, if requested, will bring them out and load them into your car. The bagger sometimes gets a tip, especially if they are handling heavy items like cat litter. (Baggers are common in grocery stores with large parking lots: so they were common growing up in a mid-sized city in the Midwest but I've never seen one in NYC)
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  • cmdrfred 10y ago
• cfv 10y ago
  Where I live tipping is a matter of gratitude; you tip if you were treated well, and you don't if you weren't. I think it's easier to reason about, and is almost never problematic for anyone involved
• rbcgerard 10y ago
  Jobs that have a high component of tip income, generally tend to be low wage (total comp), seasonal, have high turnover, employ younger workers (again, generally), and are transaction oriented. With the above in mind it makes sense to use tipping to align enployees and management in a situation where management can't spend the time developing/micro managing its employees You think the average teenage valet is going to run for your car on a hot day if there is no tip?
  • facepalm 10y ago
    If it is his job, he will run for the car. Otherwise he'll lose his job?
    • golergka 10y ago
      He'll lose his job in a month, when a distracted and overworked manager finally decides he's had enough. But since he only wanted that job for a couple of months, he doesn't care about it. But a tip is something he's going to get here and now. Much better for immediate motivation.
  • zip1234 10y ago
    I would agree except for the fact that tips have been found to largely not correlate with performance. http://freakonomics.com/2012/12/28/do-we-really-tip-based-on-the-waiters-service-2/ http://freakonomics.com/2012/12/28/do-we-really-tip-based-on...
    • rbcgerard 10y ago
      I totally agree that there is a tremendous amount of variance in what people actually tip (in the case of the valet, it can literally depend on the amount and denominations of the cash in one's pocket), but I think it does matter in tail cases, and I would hazard that the providers of the service know this as well...at least providing incentive not to be awful or to be excellent (for those so inclined)
    • rubidium 10y ago
• dorfsmay 10y ago
  Tipping is about the perception of social class and giving the buyer the perception of having power over others, by giving them a mini power-trip. In no other circumstances is a unilateral and after the fact negotiation acceptable. Would YOU work for a variable salary with no clear criteria on what affect it, no guarantee of salary regardless of your skills an effort and for which studies have shown that the colour of your skin, your sex and the mood and social background of the customer has more effect on your salary than anything else? If the service and the food is good, I tip 15% and go back for more and talk about it to everybody I know. If the service or the food is bad, I tip 15%, never go back, and let everybody I know, know about it.
  • amsilprotag 10y ago
    The problem is that two equilibria exist. The equilibrium of a tipping culture is reinforced by high-performing wait staff. If one restaurant or one city adopts a no-tipping policy, the well-tipped will move, the poorly-tipped will stay, and quality will suffer. The other problem is that the tipping culture has created many extrinsically motivated workers. Cultures without tipping require people who intrinsically perform well, but years of living under the carrot and stick of tipping has produced transactional workers. The no-tipping equilibrium perpetuates because most customers don't like the math and decision-making required after every meal. And most workers don't like being put into a Skinner box. And finally, the best wait staff in no-tipping cultures don't realize how much they're subsidizing the worst wait staff. We as a society simply fell into the worse equilibrium. The only solution is a national edict, but this likely won't happen because there isn't the political will, and the beneficiaries of the current system know who they are and what they'd lose.
    • dorfsmay 10y ago
      To avoid the math for the customers, restaurant can simply advertise price before service (like all restaurants), and add a compulsory service charge (say 15%). In terms of incentive, what about firing the low-performers, like in other industries. You are implying that tipping as an incentive works, I disagree, in my experience people tip based on the overall experience and a large part of that is taste which the wait staff has no influence over. What about a bonus for everybody, based on the profit made that month?
• emp_zealoth 10y ago
  Or, you know, finally unfuck your riddiculous system where paid vacations is a luxury, minimum wage is pathetic and health insurance is not the standard...
  • dang 10y ago
    > finally unfuck your riddiculous system Would you please stop posting rage rhetoric to HN? We've asked you this before, but you're still doing it a lot. Fulmination lowers the quality of discussion, even when you're not attacking anyone personally. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13263073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13263073 and marked it off-topic.
    • mSparks 10y ago
      would you please take your life somewhere else.
  • deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  • cmdrfred 10y ago
    We did most of that after the great depression unfortunately it took the great depression to summon the political will to pull it off.
• oddlyaromatic 10y ago
  Here's a pickle: I agree with the direction of this article, but I don't agree with most of the individual points and statements. I think the expectation of tipping in the US is in general a bad thing, but has enough upsides for business owners and some higher-earning servers (and even some customers) that it will be hard to dislodge. I also think the incentive for any business to change is probably not as high as the author's wishful thinking makes out. I mostly disagree that "it’s robbery", or it's some kind of unpleasant surprise at the end of the meal for the customer. Tipping is not a secret. You know it going in. You might not like it but it's not a new thing that gets sprung on you at the end of the meal. If you can't afford to tip at the level you want to, you probably won't enjoy eating there. It is too costly for you regardless of the printed menu prices, because you know in advance that if you experience service you really love, you're going to be delighted and you'll want to be generous with a tip - but if you feel like you can't afford the extra 20%, that will be unpleasant for you and the server. Printed Price + Tip + Tax is the cost of many services in the US. It is not an ambush. I still prefer non-tipping cultures, like where I grew up, but I accept that this is the real cost of things here. There are complexities related to the psychology of putting cheaper prices on the menu than you really end up paying, I agree with that, but it is not as simple as many of us seem to think. Much of this article, and many of these comments, seem to ignore the realities of the complicated and entangled cultural accident that tipping the US is. It might be better to unravel it - but it will be difficult, and it will have costs.
  • return0 10y ago
    > has enough upsides for business owners and some higher-earning servers You don't need to mandate tips from everyone and their brother to do it. High-earning servers who serve the specialty needs of the rich will always earn their high tips. It's the fact that it's expected from everyone that's annoying.
    • dragonwriter 10y ago
      > You don't need to mandate tips from everyone and their brother to do it. Tips are never mandated.
    • deleted 10y ago
• vegabook 10y ago
  The idea of separate charging for food and service acknowledges a certain orthogonality in the two activities, and also offers the service staff a measure of unbundled independence, in the diner's perception. It reflects the tradition that serving food professionally is a real skill and is partially unrelated to the food itself. in France 15% service charge ivs built in, it means service staff are professionals as they get paid properly, and I never experienced diners convincing themselves that the meal was bad as a result. Personally always find this moaning about tipping, which seems to afflict a large though thankfully not majority proprtion of the population, selfish and small minded. If you don't like paying for a genuine service, ie. someone at your beck and call, stay at home.
• j2bax 10y ago
  There are far cheaper ways to eat than going out and being waited on hand and foot. If you don't like that kind of service and the premium price that comes with it, go to the grocery store and cook your own meal!
  • golergka 10y ago
    It's not always cheaper, especially when you account for time and effort lost. Eating out isn't only about fine dining; there are plenty of cheap and healthy places quite suited for everyday meals.
    • j2bax 10y ago
      Are these places you refer to self service? If so tipping isn't really in play in most cases.
      • golergka 10y ago
        It varies. Sometimes there is service; sometimes you order at the counter and they bring your food over. Anyway, I always tip, because I want them to remember me in a good way - which works perfectly. BTW, one full meal in such places around me usually costs around $5-10. With a typical salary of a senior engineer outside of SF, it's still quite an affordable option.
• JumpCrisscross 10y ago
  Maybe I'm ruining it for everyone, but when I've gone to New York's budding "no tip" restaurants, I've thrown a cash tip on the bill. Guess what happened next? I was asked my name, and the next times I went, I got seated faster, comped chef's recommendations and a generally friendlier interaction with my server. Same thing happens abroad, where the locals don't tip well. I don't understand how people get shocked by fundamental rules of incentives. (Side note: this works everywhere. No, I don't put cash on my banker's or retail clerk's counter. But I do make an effort, particularly when doing things they'll earn a commission on, to do my business with them. In exchange for the minor hassle I have a better experience and get an enjoyable relationship out of what would otherwise be drudgery.)
  • takno 10y ago
    What would generally happen if you tried that in a place that stated they didn't accept tips in the UK would probably be that you'd be smiled at, your money would go in a charity tin and the server would make a mental note to serve you last next time. I suspect your ego would then simply reject the obviously bad service you received the next time and you would convince yourself that you had somehow benefited rather than accept that your previous actions were arrogant, culturally imperialistic and unwise.
  • crazygringo 10y ago
    As a New Yorker, I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Tips are flat-out refused at the no-tip restaurants. And the idea that your tip was tracked in a database and that you actually got better service the next time because of it is entirely in your mind, I'm sorry. There's actually a tremendous amount of research on incentives, and they don't always result in the behavior you'd think.
    • NikolaeVarius 10y ago
      I concur. A no tip restaurant would NEVER take your tip. How the hell would they divy up the 10 bucks if top you give them among the entire staff? Best case scenario the waiter pocketed it.
• emodendroket 10y ago
  Any consideration of tipping has to take into account the fact that it lets owners shift risk to their employees (since more of a slow night will come out of their pockets instead of the owner's) -- especially when laws specifying that employers have to make up the difference if a wage with tips is less than minimum wage are poorly enforced.
  • greedo 10y ago
    Also, tipping culture is almost like sales commissions. When I waited tables, if I sold a bottle of wine, that could add $50-100 to the bill; I would pocket $10-$20 more per table. That's a helluva incentive.
• gohwell 10y ago
  Along the same lines, on a visit to San Fran I was surprised to see a 3-4% healthcare surcharge at restaurants. You sit for a nice meal only to get a sticker shock when the bill comes. smh
• return0 10y ago
  Tip to americans: tipping is ultra-confusing to foreign visitors. But you dont depend on tourism so you dont see it. Its an arduous procedure and the amount changes from state to state. It leads to a lot of misunderstanding. The service is good , leaning on overbearing sometimes, but overall i think its more hassle than benefit.
  • illumin8 10y ago
    It's not that hard, and doesn't vary from state to state. I agree, we would be better off if we did away with it, but it's very easy to understand. Whenever you eat in a sit-down, full service restaurant, you typically want to leave 15-20% of the full purchase price of the food as a tip. Don't feel obligated to do this at fast food restaurants or anywhere where you get the food at the counter. It's not that hard to remember this, but I agree, it can create some socially awkward circumstances, especially for tourists who "forget" about the custom.
    • return0 10y ago
      It varies, 15% in california would be considered low, and you would never know why the waiter made that weird face. It is weird in taxis. And what is the proper etiquette in a bar? And what kind of bar? A bellboy? More generally, however, a 'tip' is supposed to be an arbitrary amount out of someone's good heart. The fact that it is a preset amount, and you need a calculator, is weird and time-consuming. Again, it may not look so from the inside. My assumption is that it's a relic from a time when workers were uneducated and by default rude. It really seems like an ancient thing nowadays.
• nommm-nommm 10y ago
  If I go to a brewery for a pint (brewery, not brewpub) there's a tip line on the credit card receipt. I've been to a couple wineries for a glass of wine...And never seen a tip line on the winery recept. Can anyone explain this one to me?
• cylinder 10y ago
  Tipping is truly one of the stupidest aspects of American society. It's unfair to both the worker and the customer.
• losteverything 10y ago
  Always overtip breakfast waitresses.
• fowlerpower 10y ago
  Having worked in the restaurant industry for over 12 years, started as a bus boy at 15 years old, then waiter, then bartender and finally moved to General Manager of the whole place. I can tell you that tipping is absolutely necessary. I can say that the article is dead wrong about this. Tipping is the best thing that's ever happened to the US Restourant business. Especially at great establishments with repeat customers. Here are a few reasons: 1) As an owner of a place there is only one of you, impossible for you to cook and go greet the guests and do everything to make them feel special. Your staff, the waiters the bus boys will feel like owners through tipping. If they do a shitty job they don't get paid, it doesn't get more capitalistic than that. It's the the same thing that motivates employees of startups that have equity. 2) For customers Tipping is not required if they do a shit job you don't have to tip 20%. Leave 10% or less, that's the whole point. You as a consumer have the power. Not the owner or the staff. 3) The math is a bit annoying but most places will put the math in your receipt. 4) The best establishments with repeat customers benefit from tipping the most. The waiters and staff have to treat your guests very well and it is in their best interest to keep high paying, high tipping customers happy and coming back. The waiters will complain and fight with the chef when they do a bad job that's how much they care about things going well. Their livelihood is at steak. 5) Now compare waiters in good establishments that get good tips to folks working at McDonalds. There is no comparison, the waiters are motivated the McDonalds worker gets paid no matter what and makes no tip. No extra effort necessary. For that matter compare them to any worker hat dosent make a tip and doesn't have to hustle. Anyway, I am a bit too passionate about this but the author is very wrong on this one. Tipping creates a common goal among the owner and all the staff it is crazy to ever think of getting rid of something that makes your employees work harder and better and is a carrot and a stick that gives the consumer all the power.
  • piva00 10y ago
    I seriously got very annoyed at most places I went to eat during my trip to the US last year. Having good service is not coming every 5 minutes ask if I'm all right, if I need something, if this or that. Leave me alone, I want to eat and enjoy, not have to reply a waiter eager for a tip. Also the whole vibe is very "fake", I never felt really "welcomed" in any of the places I went to, the greetings, the whole attitude looked like a sham, I went to upscale places and just normal diners and it was all the same. I'm sorry but I don't think this is healthy as a society, I prefer the level of service I had in São Paulo or here in Stockholm, waiters are genuinely nice or just get out of your way and let you enjoy the experience or just your food. Tipping culture looks like whoring: if you pay enough anyone can be nice to you, I'm sorry but I don't like to know that the niceness is artificial and that I'm paying for it.
• petre 10y ago
  I'd rather tip than get a bill with service tax included, which is itself taxed by the state authorities. If the service is crap, my tip is going to be zero. What sucks is restaurants that share the tip between employees, which means unmotivated employees get the same amount as the motivated ones. It's also a cultural thing - in Southern Europe there's a strong tipping culture. In Hungary you get a service tax on the bill instead. In Austria they will thank you and look extremely grateful for a tip of even one cent. Optional is good. No tip is fine as well. But don't tell me what to do and especially do not regulate tipping.
• emeerson 10y ago
  No-tipping trends are starting to reverse now, however: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-restaurants-walk-back-no-tipping-policies/482151/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-rest... Upscale and some midscale restaurants in NYC have seen a drop in demand since no-tipping policies have been applied. Its not clear if this is purely a product of pricing psychology, or if service quality at the upscale end starts to suffer with service staff having less incentive to provide top-notch service.
• Spooky23 10y ago
  Let's be real here. The reason these stories are popping up is that the restaurant industry is getting squeezed, hard, by supermarkets that are moving towards prepared foods as online delivery starts to nip at their business. Restauranteurs at mid priced places want to capture more value. No tipping means that the waitress currently pulling in $20-30/hr makes $15, and they pocket the difference through higher prices and shrink-ray. All of these ethical arguments, armchair economic dissertations and tales of tipping PTSD woe are nonsense. It's all about dollars and cents for yet another dying industry.
• mrits 10y ago
  Mexico all inclusive vs Thailand. Anyone that has been to these two places would have to agree that tipping directly correlates to the quality of service. This is why I'm going back to Mexico for the 9th time in 4 years.
  • xxbondsxx 10y ago
    Can you elaborate on this? What is the tipping culture like in Thailand? I presume you mean in Mexico that since everything is all-inclusive, the only real payment is tips so it strongly affects service quality.
    • mrits 10y ago
      Tipping in Thailand is not much of a thing. The service greatly suffers from this. If you do go into a 5-star hotel in the city they tend to attract a crowd that expects tips. This is where you can find really good service. The people were always pleasant, just not very motivated to serve you. Everywhere I've been in Mexico the service has been top notch. In all inclusives you are still expected to tip the people.
• nommm-nommm 10y ago
  I read an argument once that that tipping is probably illegal under US employment law because, in practice, its racist. Research indicates that servers who are ethnic minorities are tipped less than white women, who are tipped most. Sure the employer isn't doing the discrimination themselves but they are setting up compensation scheme that, in practice, is discriminatory. This is called "adverse impact" in US employment law and is still illegal, there doesn't have to be intent. Maybe challenging tipping in court would be the best way to eliminate it. I'd be interested in reading the ruling no matter the outcome. EDIT: Quick Google, Here's some research on the subject http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1030&context=articles http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic... As an aside, I actually went to a pretty expensive restaurant where the busboy did most of the work. The only thing the waiter did was take our order, ask if everything was ok, asked if we wanted another (paid) drink (the busboy refilled our water several times), and brought us the check. They busboy did everything that wasn't money oriented. I asked him if he got tips, he said he got 10%. 10% of the compensation for at least 50% of the work! I noticed all the busboys there had something in common - they were all black teenagers. The waitstaff also wore button down shirts and ties and the busboys wore polo shirts. I was extremely uncomfortable with the situation.
  • golemotron 10y ago
    > I read an argument once that that tipping is probably illegal under US employment law because, in practice, its racist. Research indicates that servers who are ethnic minorities are tipped less than white women, who are tipped most. Wouldn't that make minority owned businesses racist too by the same logic? If people make choices based on race, it puts them and their employees at a disadvantage.
    • nommm-nommm 10y ago
      How does that follow?
      • deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
• coreyp_1 10y ago
  I think that tipping as a percentage of the meal cost is absolutely idiotic. I have never gotten good service at an expensive restaurant, and yet the receipt gives you the math for 18%, 20%, and 22% tips. I have gotten good and bad service at cheap restaurants (something like Steak and Shake), and tip accordingly. The "work" is not anything different between the two jobs. Just take my order, bring me my food, and refill my water glass (heck, leave me a pitcher of water and I'll be much happier and do the refilling myself!). Why does the expensive restaurant expect a $10.00 tip for this service, while the cheap place is happy with a $2.00 tip for the same amount of work?!?
  • lostphilosopher 10y ago
    This! I have never heard a compelling explanation of this. It gets doubly weird with alcohol in the equation. A group of 4 shares a $60 dollar bottle of wine with dinner. The waiter/ress brings a bottle and pours 4 glasses. If that doesn't kill the bottle they leave it and often the guests refill on their own. = $12 tip A table of 4 gets 4 glasses of pop $2.50 each, each a different kind. The waiter/ress brings 4 full glasses to the table, and then goes back and forth filling them for each individual. = $2.00 tip What?!
    • greedo 10y ago
      Because tip culture helps the restaurant owner make money. If you incentivize your wait staff to push expensive specials and high priced wine by the bottle, then both they and the restaurant make more $$.
  • Draiken 10y ago
    Wholeheartedly agree. I feel like these numbers were just made up. Who decided 10% is good? or 20%? Why is it a percentage? This whole system is absurd to me. If we follow the same logic then why don't programmers get "tips" when they do a nice commit message? or deliver on time? why are servers so different? Just saying it out loud makes me giggle because of how silly it sounds.
    • 10y ago
• kylehotchkiss 10y ago
  I wish more american restaurants would embrace the iPad ordering tools I've seen crop up. Then the waiter just brings out what you ordered. I like the food at waitstaff-based restaurants but as I often eat by myself (and work or sit around on HN during that time), I think the idea of being waited on is silly. Also: tips on carry out? Why is that an option.
• intrasight 10y ago
  I prefer the American system, where the tip is optional, to the European system, where they just add it to your bill.
• hota_mazi 10y ago
  The author of this article needs to travel a bit. > what if we were to magically make tipping disappear? Tipping is nonexistent in most of Europe, and guess what: the service absolutely sucks as a consequence. Why would waiters go out of their way to please you? They don't make more money doing so. So your orders take forever, waiters never smile or even show any kind of a pleasant attitude. It's a terrible experience all around. Tipping is awkward and the fact that the prices you see are never the prices you pay is annoying, but it has upsides.
• nayuki 10y ago
  A fast and entertaining take on this topic: "Why Tipping Should Be Banned - Adam Ruins Everything" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k
• skywhopper 10y ago
  A lot of the advice here is good and has nothing to do with tipping. Pay your staff well, don't add service charges (adding "fees" for "health care" is a counterproductive political statement), just charge a fair price that covers your costs. I love going to places that include sales tax in the advertised price. I would never return to a restaurant that nickel and dimed me for their health care expenses. But I also love tipping generously. I don't believe poor service should be punished with a poor tip. More likely poor service means your server is also having a really bad, overworked day and deserves the tip more. But I guarantee if you tip well every time you go to a local restaurant regularly you will get spectacular service after a few times. As for non Americans who are confused by tipping, it's no more important or intimidating than typical expected manners in other countries. In Paris shopkeepers expect you to say bonjour and au revoir and cashiers expect you to have exact change. There'll always be cultural gotchas when you travel. If you're unsure whether to tip it's totally acceptable to ask.
• george_ciobanu 10y ago
  Tipping is asking the consumer to do the work of management - you decide if our employee did a good job and how much they deserve. I'm here to have dinner, thank you, not to assess how your employees behave and decide how much they should be paid.
• rudyrigot 10y ago
  On the other hand, living 6 years in Paris where there's no tipping but also has ridiculously poor service culture gets one to build some positive opinions about tipping too...