15 ms·

Apple Sucks Now, Here’s a ThinkPad Buyer’s Guide

238 points by dragonbonheur 10y ago

marklyon 10y ago
In addition to Lenovo, consider the XPS 13 and 15. While Dell's quality has been somewhat inconsistent as they launched the line, they stepped up and took care of the problem I encoutered with my XPS 13 and it's quickly become my favorite laptop ever. Great battery life, super portable, an external battery for long flights and an AMAZING screen. It even supports touch, which I don't use all the time, but find nice to have. With either the Lenovo or Dell, make certain to add multi-year same or next day service. With Dell, it's easier to do that from their small business sections than from the home section. If you forget, just call and buy separately. I got my laptop from MS Store due to a sale then called and added 4 years to the warranty. While many rave about the genius bar, I find the "come to my home or office and fix this" experience far preferable.
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  That's a heck of a sales pitch out of nowhere, extended warranty and everything!
- junnan 10y ago
  +1 for XPS 13. I installed Archlinux on it, just to get rid of those Windows bloatware.
- fluxsauce 10y ago
  Edit - never mind, found it. Dell has some dead links. I've been keeping an eye on the XPS 13, but it looks like the "Developer Edition" has gone away. Do you know what the current equivalent is?
  - callahad 10y ago
    For others: The XPS 13 "Developer Edition" has been rolled into the mainline XPS 13, and only appears under the "Shop for Work" facet of their online store. For folks in the US, visit http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd and filter by Operating System -> Ubuntu
    - sliken 10y ago
      Be warned that all the kaby lake XPS13 have MUCH slower GPUs then the previous edition with the IRIS 540 graphics.
      - walterbell 10y ago
        Why, will this affect other models and OEMs?
    - stock_toaster 10y ago
      Huh. Looks like you still have to get the touchscreen model to get a configuration with 16gb ram. I was hoping they would allow that by now, but it still looks like 8gb soldered in ram is the only option for the FHD (non-touch) display.
- barongrounds 10y ago
  Make sure you replace the worthless Broadcom wifi chip with an Intel. It's puzzling that Dell would cheap out on an otherwise excellent machine. At least swapping them out is an easy job.
  - mschuster91 10y ago
    At least the Broadcom chipsets can do soft-AP mode on Linux, something that IIRC even the top-notch Intel chipsets can't.
    - vetinari 10y ago
      Are you sure about that? In the past, I've used Centrino N6205 in AP mode to share internet connection of the Thinkpads T430s 3G modem. iw info also says, that it supports AP mode.
  - jtbarrett 10y ago
    You could also consider the Precision 5510 [1] if a Quadro GPU works for you. Essentially an XPS 15 but it includes Intel wifi. Recently got one from work and I've been pretty happy with it. [1] http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m5510-workstation/pd http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m5510-workstatio...
  - gtaylor 10y ago
    Fwiw, the broadcom chip is supported and works fine with Linux on my XPS 15. No extra work required.
    - barongrounds 10y ago
      It works, but "works fine" is a long stretch. Takes a long time to connect, particularly after suspend, sometimes several minutes or longer. This is true of both windows and Linux.
      - marklyon 10y ago
- ceor4 10y ago
  How's linux support in the XPS 15?
  - jerf 10y ago
    I'm currently running Ubuntu 16.04 on it, and everything I've tried works. But it has taken some fiddling. (I have swapped the wireless for [1] on the advice of a coworker that didn't even like the way the stock one worked on Windows.) I can't vouch for the USB3, Thunderbolt, or Bluetooth because I haven't tried it. Also stock Ubuntu can't control the backlight brightness but xbacklight can, so it seems to be an Ubuntu issue rather than Linux. It also installed next to Windows pretty well, once I turned off Secure Boot in the Bios. Grub worked without hassle. You may also have some fiddling with the AHCI vs. RAID sections in the BIOS; google around for info on that. You may also need to reinstall Windows 10 from scratch to avoid issues with "locked blocks" on the main hard drive so you can shrink partitions, and to deal with the switch from "RAID" to "AHCI" (not strictly necessary but if you're going to reinstall anyhow it works). Depends on the line up. I do recommend that if you get one, you figure out whether you're going to dual-boot immediately, before you "move into" Windows. It's much easier to put together a dual-boot setup with a fresh install of Windows 10, I found. (And it's actually Window's fault, not Linux's, for refusing to evacuate enough of the drive.) If you do plan to reinstall windows, go to the Dell driver page, grab all the relevant ones, and stick them on the Windows 10 installation USB stick you make. (There's a tool from Microsoft that just lets you download the Windows 10 install media, then picks up the license off the motherboard.) Also, I found you will have to install a particular BIOS to make sure you don't get this weird and very annoying screen flicker where it dims for a couple of frames every ten seconds or so; A06 I think from the BIOS page. It has not been the smoothest trip. But then, getting Linux running on a laptop perfectly never is. But I have ended up with a satisfactory primarily-Linux system. (I boot into Windows for games. Dual-boot is less frustrating when booting is so fast; I counted 32 seconds to hibernate Linux, reboot into Windows, and have Steam up and functioning. It's actually faster for me to do that from Linux than to start up my PS3 and be playing a game from a cold AV system start.) [1]: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0167N9R8E/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0167N9R8E/ref=oh_aui_sear...
    - 10y ago
- intopieces 10y ago
  If you go with Dell, go with either Developer Edition or Windows Signature Edition. I too had an issue with my Dell XPS 9343 (128GB/8GB/"4K" Touch) and a Dell rep came to my house and fixed it. I have two of these now, one for work (FHD) and one for personal (Touch).
  - sliken 10y ago
    Dell claims the 3200x1800 screen takes the battery life of the new XP13 from 22 hours to 12. Have you noticed similar?
    - intopieces 10y ago
      I'm running the Skylake version, not Kaby Lake, but yes the battery life is significantly less (8 hours vs about 12, Touch vs FHD). If battery life is your concern, definitely go with the FHD Kaby Lake. It has a matte screen that is absolutely beautiful in 1080p. I had issues with a loose trackpad on the Touch but not the 1080p.
- jlgaddis 10y ago
  > ... it's easier to do that from their small business sections ... For the last few years, I've recommended to anyone buying a "personal" laptop to order it from the "small business" portals/sites instead of the normal "consumer/home" ones. You usually get better support (or better support options), including US-based phone tech support (personally, that doesn't really matter to me as long as I can understand the support agent but, honestly, it does matter to a lot of people) and sometimes better warranties as well. It may cost a few bucks extra but it's well worth it when the time comes that you need it.
- cm2187 10y ago
  And if you want an ethernet port, the lattitude E7470. Just don't bother with the fingerprint reader which is pretty much useless.
Apreche 10y ago
Since Lenovo preinstalled spyware/malware they can no longer be trusted.
- kyriakos 10y ago
  the problem with this argument is that any manufacturer can be preinstalling spyware in the future and you won't know until it becomes public. Lenovo did but apparently stopped after it got caught. My point is that all OEM's are on the same boat.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - fatbird 10y ago
    There's still a pretty big difference between "did install spyware" and "could install spyware". Everyone is a potential criminal; I'm still going to exercise more caution around convicted felons.
  - sliken 10y ago
    Lenovo seems pretty unique and adding ugly hacks to their hardware (like disabling ACHI), and then changing the PCI ID of a "fake raid" chip. So not only does this break linux, but it also breaks the standard release of windows. So even if you want to install MS Windows from official microsoft media, you can't. Why would lenovo would disable AHCI (which breaks windows and linux), then mess with a fake RAID (despite having a single storage device). Seems like Lenovo REALLY doesn't want consumers reinstalling the OS.... makes one wonder.
    - cheiVia0 10y ago
      Wasn't it concluded that it was to reduce power usage, and it was Intel that didn't provide a Linux driver? Edit: http://lwn.net/Articles/701635/ http://lwn.net/Articles/701635/
- ThatGeoGuy 10y ago
  I can sort of understand this sentiment, which is why I would instead encourage people to support https://minifree.org https://minifree.org. Same hardware, but you know the software is under your control. Want everything Lenovo laptops have to offer, but with software you the user can read and control? I don't have one myself, but I've heard good things, and X200s are not so old as to be unusable, especially with Linux.
kinkdr 10y ago
Lenovo lost me when the did the exact same mistake and decided to replace the exceptional Thinkpad keyboard for an inferior one.
- mindslight 10y ago
  I came from a T61, and I really don't mind the keyboard on my X230. If I had any disagreement with it, I would have promptly swapped it for one from an X220.
  - stcredzero 10y ago
    I was thinking of selling my X220. Now, maybe I'll bring it back out.
- slededit 10y ago
  Despite not being as good as the old IBM keyboards, can you name a laptop with a better one? It seems all the manufacturers make terrible keyboards.
  - CrazedGeek 10y ago
    The Razer Blade Pro has a mechanical keyboard: http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-pro http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-pro
    - tetraodonpuffer 10y ago
      it's also 17", has an nvidia 1080 (!) and comes with 32gb of RAM, that is definitely the type of specs that would be nice to have in a development machine... wonder what the battery life will be for it as there are currently no reviews available yet that I could find.
      - sn0v 10y ago
        I don't think the machine is out yet, which probably explains the lack of reviews.
macawfish 10y ago
I've been on x220T/x230T for 3 years now. These are wonderful computers!
jimbokun 10y ago
"Here are the names Apple still uses for their laptops (and yes, these are the actual model names): 13-inch MacBook Pro with 2.0GHz Processor and 256GB Storage 13-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar and Touch ID, 2.9 GHz Processor and 256GB Storage 13-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar and Touch ID, 2.9GHz Processor and 512GB Storage The ThinkPad naming convention makes marketing easier, product differentiation simpler, and by comparison shows us Apple without Jobs the first time was better than Apple without Jobs the second time." Uh, no, those names tell you exactly what the product is. Nobody except extreme aficionados could tell you the significance of 300/500/700 off the top of their head.
- ch4ch4 10y ago
  Except that you still don't know which generation of processor the MBP has- I still see tons of deceptive Craigslist ads for MBPs that have a "2.0Ghz" processor, with no indication that it's a model from 2011, which is not at all comparable with a "2.0Ghz" processor from 2015.
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    Same goes for NVMe vs. SATA 256 GB SSD, or the 13" 1280x720 TN panel LCD on an 8 year old laptop versus a 13" 4K IPS display today.
  - hyperbovine 10y ago
    What are you doing that you would even notice? Honest question. I can't recall a single instance where my 2012 rMBP slowed down due to its age. I mainly code, open tons of browser tabs, and listen to Spotify. Once I got a laptop with built-in SSD, everything just seemed to run at the speed of thought. That has not changed in four years or three operating systems.
    - Roritharr 10y ago
      Not everyone is a webdeveloper that has to link some pngs into some text file and MAYBE batch process some images. There's people with heavy workloads who notice. I really don't understand that attitude. "Because I don't need it, nobody would need it."
ladzoppelin 10y ago
+1 on the XPS 15. Windows 10 with "Bash for Windows"/WSL flies and looks amazing. I think Dell's work with any Linux distro as well. Buy from the MS store and you get a clean version of Windows. Edit: New Surfacebook also looks nice.
- philbot1008 10y ago
  Buy from the Microsoft Store and you may get a bios-locked laptop that can only run Windows 10. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_micro...
  - erk__ 10y ago
    This is pretty outdated now Lenovo has released a bios update for the laptop in question.
    - sliken 10y ago
      What does the new BIOS do?
      - vetinari 10y ago
        Unlocks the AHCI setting, so it doesn't flip back. Meanwhile, Intel also made a driver for Linux that recognizes the RAID mode and works with that.
  - yareally 10y ago
    If you're going to link that, I would suggest also reading the stickied reply by a moderator of that subreddit[1] that refutes many of the points made by the OP. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/d7wekux/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_micro...
    - philbot1008 10y ago
antirez 10y ago
There are many good hardware choices at this point in order to replace a Macbook. What is entirely not clear is what software to use to replace a Macbook.
- tinalumfoil 10y ago
  Linux? Hackintosh? BSD? Windows? TempleOS?
- gkop 10y ago
  Debian Testing (Stretch) with all its defaults, including its default desktop environment (Gnome 3).
  - antirez 10y ago
    I admit it's a few years at this point I don't use a Linux box as my desktop. Is it at a point where, to do all the obvious things like, use Skype, configure a printer, have a decent presentation or video editing software, update my system without hacking with the drivers, I can just have it? My fear is that I'll not be able to do everything I do with my Mac now. A solution could be to install Windows 10 in dual boot maybe, to use commercial software (for video editing, just to make an example, but others may want to do gaming). Trivia: I used only Linux for more than a decade, but I quit and went to macbook because it was a bit like fighting with the system to do basic stuff.
    - minitech 10y ago
      Skype for Linux has a release that’s up-to-date with the Mac and Windows ones now. Can’t help you with presentation or video editing software, though.
      - antirez 10y ago
        Thanks, I think that, while I still have a Macbook that will last a couple of years, I'll install a Linux installation in dual boot so that I can start to understand where I'm headed...
therealmarv 10y ago
Was thinking about Lenovo X series 3 years ago... until I've found out that their IPS display is not that good, it's comparable with a good Macbook Air display (although that is a TN one). For the price of a new X series better get a Macbook Air, it's the more comparable one (also nearly same price region) to Lenovo than the Macbook Pro (this is another league).
- stevenhubertron 10y ago
  What about the razed blade stealth? It seems fantastic but I don't know anyone using it.
  - therealmarv 10y ago
    wow, the razor blade stealth looks actually incredible from first view. But... my requirement was either Linux or macOS. I don't use Windows for anything (and I'm not a gamer).
therealmarv 10y ago
Was thinking about Lenovo X series 3 years ago... until I've found out that their IPS display is not that good, it's comparable with a good Macbook Air display (although that is a TN one). For the price of a new X series better get a Macbook Air, it's the more comparable one (also nearly same price region) to Lenovo than the Macbook Pro (this is another league).
jpm_sd 10y ago
I have a W550S that is the best laptop I've ever owned... and I think I've had at least 15 laptops, two of which were Macs
gesman 10y ago
I made a fair attempt to work on MacBook Pro a year ago and was underwhelmed. Glitches aside, i felt like Apple is trying to convert me to their religion and the view of the world through Apple's glasses. After about 6 month of struggle and I am happy Pro Lenovo user. Having said that - Apple's smartphone offerings are superb and intuitive - exactly how it should be.
- actuallyalys 10y ago
  > felt like Apple is trying to convert me to their religion and the view of the world through Apple's glasses I regularly use both macOS and Windows, and I don't see what you mean. Can you elaborate?
thisisrobv 10y ago
Was really interested in reading this until.. "ditches the Escape key for a dedicated emoji bar".
- sliken 10y ago
  There's a model with a normal keyboard, including esc. Even features a 10% larger battery and saves $200.
  - vetinari 10y ago
    It also comes with only 2 USB ports, out of which you need one for charging.
    - sliken 10y ago
      So? Generally you are either at a desk (often with a display, keyboard, and mouse), or you are traveling lighter and don't need to connect many usb devices. So for each desk get a widget that takes a tb3/usb-c connection and connects to your mouse/monitor/keyboard. Basically an instant dock. If you really hook up more than one device, travel light, AND need more than 10 hours a day buy a little usb hub. I suspect over 95% of laptop use is either at a desk or requires less than 2 USB-C/tb3 ports.
      - vetinari 10y ago
        Nowadays, TB2 hubs are not cheap (200-300 EUR) and I don't expect TB3 to be cheap either. Just USB3 hub does not cut it, it will be a while until you will be able to connect displays using USB3. Even today, I'm using two TB2 ports and one USB port (i.e. three ports on the computer) because: 1 x miniDP (no, most displays are not TB2 native and cannot daisy-chain with other TB devices), 1 x ethernet adapter (the Apple one cannot daisy-chain either), and USB hub for the rest.
        sliken 10y ago
        New (granted not quite shipping) hubs/docks sound like $100 or so. You sit down, connect the tb3/usbc cable and your mouse, keyboard, and display works. Of course your laptop is getting charged as well. Preorder for $105 http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/10/28/13453274/arc-hub-bourge-design-usb-c-port-apple-macbook http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/10/28/13453274/a...
hockeybias 10y ago
The comment "the MacBook Pro is the de facto standard laptop issued to all developers, all hackathon attendees, and arguably, anyone who does real work with a computer." is so very, very very beyond laughable.
platz 10y ago
my goto is used thinkpads—the X220 vs T420 was a tough call. Went with T420; even though X220 is a bit more portable and nicer in a few attributes, just felt the 12.5in panel not ideal for complex app UIs, whereas 14in is pretty comfortable with any work environment I can throw at it.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
extr 10y ago
Thinkpads definitely get over-recommended on the internet, but I have been really pleased with my X220. I bought a corporate refurb on ebay a year ago for about $200. It has sailed along since then. Any problems I have I am confident I can repair and parts are cheap and plentiful. At one point I replaced the DC jack and WiFI card in an hour or two with a screwdriver and a youtube video (total cost: $25). It runs linux flawlessly with plenty of horsepower despite the 2012 era CPU. RAM is easily upgradeable and it has a 2nd drive bay. If you are comfortable with putting together your own PC (which I suspect most of the HN audience is), you will get way more mileage out of it than buying a newish chromebook for a similar price. I've heard rumors of a "thinkpad classic" machine in the same form factor with an upgraded CPU, USB 3.0, and high res screen, which I would love.
- post_break 10y ago
  I have an X201 sitting next to me. It could heat my office or dry my hair when idling. I wish I could just plop in a better cpu and keep the chassis.
- btgeekboy 10y ago
  I have a similar story with my T430. Ivy Bridge CPU, 8GB, and two internal SSDs (one msata). It's a tank, and worth the $300 or so I paid. Upgraded it to add the msata ssd and add a backlit keyboard, and it's a great beater laptop for when I don't need portability.
jwatte 10y ago
Just get a Razer Blade. It's the same weight and form factor as a MBP, but black and with a real GPU. Run Windows 10 if you just want to get work done, or Debian or something if you need metal Linux (as opposed to VMs)
- hxegon 10y ago
  Also take a look at the razor blade stealth for something cheaper, if you don't need a dedicated graphics card. (although you can hook up a razer core if you need one)
  - sliken 10y ago
    Ugh, wish they did the same thing as apple. Use the previous generation skylake with a decent GPU. qhd (let along 4k) is quite a few pixels for such a weak GPU.
- lifeformed 10y ago
  I agree, I use one for game dev and it works great. The build quality is top notch, and the new ones have amazing specs.
- enave 10y ago
  Is there a reason why the company spells their name with an "e" instead of an "o"
  - MagnumOpus 10y ago
    Googlability? (Like flattr, grindr, etc).
platz 10y ago
Why did they recommend the T400 over the T420?
- vetinari 10y ago
  Due to Intel Management Engine - basically a binary blob, that you don't know what it is doing. T400 is Core 2 Duo machine and works without IME. T420 is i5/i7 machine and IME is a requirement and you cannot make a BIOS replacement without it.
  - platz 10y ago
    I didn't know people felt that stongly about arbitrary binary blobs. I know this is hackaday and open hardware and all, but if im going to be worried about binary blobs im going to be worried about a ton of netsec related stuff in other boxes too. Just wonderin' who this is really biting, assuming the intended individual was also already a closed-source, secretive apple fan.
    - vetinari 10y ago
      It's not an arbitrary binary blob. It's blob that's running at SMM level. A perfect place for rootkits.
      - platz 10y ago
        There was an article the other day about a man who lets his children go on the top of his roof. He made a calculation that the probability that harm would occur was low enough to be acceptable. I do a much similar thing; will follow up with you if/when my bios gets rooted.
      - yuhong 10y ago
        AFAIK it is not SMM, it is a separate CPU. IMO, the most important lesson everyone should learn however is the laptop anti-theft arms race is horrible too.
hxegon 10y ago
Anyone tried have one of the new razer blade stealths? I'm eyeing one (16gb, kaby lake i7, 500+gb ssd) for 1400, and curious what others experiences are.
antisthenes 10y ago
My recent experience with Lenovo shunned me away from Thinkpads for the foreseeable future and from Lenovo in general as a customer. After placing an order for a Thinkpad that I needed urgently, they, without explanation or email canceled the order the next day. Trying to contact customer service, I found out that their online chat employees have no access to customer order history, because "the functionality isn't there yet". Direct quote from support. 2 months later I got an email from them, asking how I like my purchase (7 weeks into using a Dell laptop) Not to mention their site being unusable in 3/4 browsers I tried to order. The level of incompetence from them is just staggering.
- hxegon 10y ago
  Seriously, why is their site such a trash fire? Across 4 computers I've not once seen it work well. I'm thinking about getting a new computer, but even though I loved my old x230 I'm not thinking about getting a lenovo now because I can't research the laptops on lenovos own site!
  - detaro 10y ago
    Yeah, the site is horrible. Everybody I know orders their Lenovos from resellers because of it (added bonus that you can get better/cheaper configurations Lenovo doesn't sell, swap 3G modules for extra SSDs and stuff like that)
- Esau 10y ago
  The website is indeed horrible. Also, why does every PC maker try to get you to do a survey within five seconds of arriving?
electic 10y ago
Nuff said. [1] [1] http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/19/technology/security/lenovo-superfish/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/19/technology/security/lenovo-s...
mmmpop 10y ago
The glory days of the IBM T-series are over and I can't trust Lenovo to not spy on me, so I moved on from Thinkpads. My ASUS Zenbook has been a nice change of pace and I'd recommend it to anyone looking to get away from the Apple ecosystem. Windows has improved a good bit since I last worked in it ~5 years ago and while not nearly perfect, Bash on Windows by Ubuntu or whatever they call it is a pretty solid replacement for Putty :)
mmmpop 10y ago
The glory days of the IBM T-series are over and I can't trust Lenovo to not spy on me, so I moved on from Thinkpads. My ASUS Zenbook has been a nice change of pace and I'd recommend it to anyone looking to get away from the Apple ecosystem. Windows has improved a good bit since I last worked in it ~5 years ago and while not nearly perfect, Bash on Windows by Ubuntu or whatever they call it is a pretty solid replacement for Putty :)
unicornporn 10y ago
Such a good timing. I've been using Macs for over ten years now, but I bought an x220 for $130 a couple of weeks ago and it's been my favorite laptop yet. Super serviceable and works so well with Ubuntu MATE. The display sucks though (didn't get the UPS version). Just go ahead!
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
If I get one, I'm installing Linux, FreeBSD, or OpenBSD on it. ME is bad enough, and I don't trust Lenovo after what they did.
dgudkov 10y ago
I really miss the ThinkLight in new Thinkpads. It's so convenient.
dewiz 10y ago
I was very disappointed too, however I've seen similar disappointments when Apple dropped CDROM, usb, audio jacks etc. Eventually everyone gets used to it, and admittedly they are trying to simplify the keyboard IMHO. I'm super happy to have bought a maxed out mbp15 before not too long ago, so I won't have to deal with the devices/adaptors market catching up to Apple. And BTW, looks like the disappointment is all around the keyboard. FWIW I use an external KB most of the time so I wouldn't care even if I upgraded and lose my Fx keys. Anyway Linux is not ready to replace MacOS simply because it lacks many apps, Windows...well that's a joke for your battery and its Bash implementation is still too young, let's see in 3 years from now. My 2 cents, ymmv
- pmarreck 10y ago
  No word on the invisibly-killed-off and yet so sexy Mac Pro, I guess :P
  - sparky_ 10y ago
    But can it run Desert Combat? :)
    - pmarreck 10y ago
      HEY! YOU! ;) What's up? Playing Overwatch these days, at least until I can actually play Battlefield 1 (waiting on some cash for new hardware)
- andromeduck 10y ago
  Yeah I've really yet to see a credible iTerm 2 like alternative on W10 even if WSL works out.
  - Eridrus 10y ago
    Assuming WSL works out, what do you find lacking?
- dbg31415 10y ago
gambiting 10y ago
"I need to edit video or do other work that is CPU and memory intensive A laptop is not for you. Here’s PCPartPicker. Build your own desktop. It’s like Lego, but for adults." Yeah, cool, let me know when I can take a desktop in my hand luggage. There are people who legitimately need a lot of CPU power and lots of ram in a laptop - and there are products for them ( http://www.eurocom.com/ec/configure(2,270,0)ec http://www.eurocom.com/ec/configure(2,270,0)ec ) being dismissive is not helpful.
vladimir-y 10y ago
Lenovo laptops suck more than Apple, they not even able to plug Thunderbolt 3 port into the laptop, not a single port. No frame less laptops like Dell XPS or HP Spectre x360 (both have been recently updated to the Kaby Lake CPU). Lenovo is outsider.
rayiner 10y ago
Lenvo sucks now too. Their flagship laptop, the T460s, now has a non-removable battery. Their shtick has always been "yes, it's a bit bigger and heavier than a MBP, but it's expandable!" Now the T460s isn't any more expandable than the 13" rMBP, and has a lot less battery life. You can drop down to the T460, but it's not made of the same premium materials, and also doesn't even come with the high-resolution screen option. People are flipping out about the escape key, but Lenovo won't sell you a 14" laptop that has both a high-res display and a battery big enough to run it!
- hackuser 10y ago
  The T560, which has an optional 15.x" 3K screen, has both an internal and a removable battery.
- basch 10y ago
  the T460s is the slim model, the flagship standard T460 still has a removable battery. They should make the S as thin as possible, so they can keep the standard model without compromise. The s series is the compromised T460 for slimness, cant have it both ways.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    The T460s is the flagship. It's built with better materials (https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/466bb9/t460_vs_t460s_build_quality/d02tcnv https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/466bb9/t460_vs_t4...), and also has the WQHD display option which the T460 does not. I'm not sure what it was like in older Thinkpads, but for the last few cycles (T450s, T440s), the 's' series has been strictly better: same guts, but lighter and thinner by virtue of a more expensive chassis. The "Carbon" series was always the "super thin and light" option.
- willtim 10y ago
  It is easily removable with a screwdriver and won't void the warranty, replacement batteries are reasonably priced. The MBP battery is glued-in and only replaceable by Apple at vast expense. That's the trade-off that Apple make, which you fail to acknowledge. The T460 and T460p offer more battery capacity.
pyrophane 10y ago
I've been disappointed by the lack of true MacBook Pro 15 alternatives, and it doesn't seem like Lenovo offers one in the ThinkPad line, either. What I want: Quad-core CPU, decent-ish discrete graphics, a great screen, a somewhat compact case that doesn't weight a ton. What I get: An endless supply of 13" ultrabooks, 6+ lb. gaming laptops with 2 hour batteries that sound like an airline taking off on startup, sub-$800 junkers, and the "mobile workstation" that still has an optical drive. Afaik, only the XPS 15 and Razor Blade (14") really come close to the sweet spot. The XPS 15 is still awaiting its Skylake update, and the Razor, while nice, is a bit too gamey for me. Of course, I'd want to run Linux and with the mishmash that is the current state of linux HiDPI support and uncertain future of Weyland nvidia and ati drivers, I'm not really sure where that leaves me.
- justinholmes 10y ago
  https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/notebooks/9445/ https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/notebooks/9445/
- phaedrix 10y ago
  XPS 15 9550 has Skylake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_XPS#XPS_15_.28Touch.29.5B20.5D_.289530.2F9550.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_XPS#XPS_15_.28Touch.29.5B...
lcbiazon 10y ago
I often read about happy x220 and x230 users, but the newer x240/x250/x260 are not mentioned as much. Did the build quality decline after Lenovo took over?
- XiaomiFan 10y ago
  X220, X230 are made by Lenovo.
- camgunz 10y ago
  Keyboards after the x220 are chiclet, which is sacrilege to most ThinkPad users (me included). x240 really messed up the mouse buttons that you'd use with the TrackPoint: they're touch instead of click and poorly executed. x250 and x260 fix that problem more or less, and the keyboard on the x260 is appreciably better than the x240, but it's still chiclet. The main draw of the ThinkPad is that it's an unparalleled input system (TrackPoint means never leaving the home row, keyboards are second to none), they're very tough, have great battery life, very serviceable, and you can get amazing deals on eBay or through outlet/refurbishing. If you go with the X series, they're also the only < 13" machines that have replaceable batteries, a full complement of ports, reasonable specs, etc. In other words, they're the perfect dev machine. The cons are pretty bad screens, thickness, and relatively poor trackpads.
api 10y ago
Lenovo installs malware by default, so nope.
sangnoir 10y ago
> Eventually everyone gets used to it, and admittedly they are trying to simplify the keyboard IMHO No, not everyone. I remember the time Apple "simplified" Final Cut Pro "X". The professional users moved on to other products and never looked back.
- nicky0 10y ago
  This seems rather a generalisation. I wonder how true this really is.
DominikR 10y ago
Lenovo has some nice hardware, I used it for years, but the problem is that their own software is unusable and the OS options are lagging, at least for me. Yes you can install Linux, but I'm not going to pay a premium price to then spend my time hunting down the correct drivers and in the end still have some hardware not supported. Either all of the hardware that I paid for is fully supported by some Linux distribution and on top of that I don't have to lift a finger to keep it updated or I'm not buying at that price. I pay and you solve my problems, not I pay and you deliver me a bunch of new problems that I'll have to tinker with. That's really why I switched to Mac's. I'm also not terribly convinced by the new touchpad, but maybe it'll grow on me.
nodesocket 10y ago
I'm growing so tired and weary of complaining and the continuous cycle of outraged on the internet. The latest example is Apple and the new MacBooks. Tim, this is why leadership of companies at the top by "committee" doesn't work. You need a strong leader (type A) that is a dictator to silence the masses and guide the company forward. Otherwise, you get a million different voices speaking up thinking they are somehow instantly experts in a field.
drinchev 10y ago
I said this in another thread. Will say it again. Whenever your boss comes and asks you "What would you like to be your primary machine?". I bet you will reply "Latest MacBook Pro". Yeah sure it will be kinda hard for you with 16 gigs of RAM, but nonetheless much easier than having a Hackintosh.
- danjoc 10y ago
  >I bet you will reply "Latest MacBook Pro". My reply was a Razer Stealth, but I was told I had to get an Apple. So, I'm getting a $2800 dual core laptop, because I need F-keys. At least I'll be allowed to install Linux on it.
gkya 10y ago
My dream laptop: - Remove the function keys, remove escape, and all other ancient stuff like Sys Rq and Pause / Break, remove arrow keys, remove Page Up etc. Swap the places of the trackpad and the keyboard so the keyboard is closer to me and the mouse is farther away. I use the former most of the time, and it's more ergonomical that way. - No moving parts; have a 64GB SSD disk, a 4-8GB RAM, a decent CPU that supports virtualisation, open-source compatible hardware (i.e. run any Linux and any BSD systems on it, OpenBSD for me, especially), no cam or mic, generally no recording devices, have a decent speaker, USB ports, two jacks, one for the mic one for the earphones. - Thin, light, 15.6"-13" in size. - Battery that guarantees me at least 3-4 hrs of time, under load. Weight or thinness can be compromised to achieve that.
- rahrahrah 10y ago
  > remove escape, ( ... ) remove arrow keys, remove Page Up etc. Do you even code bro?
  - gkya 10y ago
    I run an emacs/vtwm/FreeBSD setup and I've done professional coding in the recent past and have very recently gotten two patches into GNU Emacs, though I'm a humanities undergrad nowadays.
    - rahrahrah 10y ago
      > I run an emacs/vtwm/FreeBSD setup Not sure what that has to do with coding, but go on > I've done professional coding in the recent past and have very recently gotten two patches into GNU Emacs, though I'm a humanities undergrad nowadays. Yes exactly, you don't code, that's why you think it's a good idea to remove page up/down.
- grapeshot 10y ago
  Well I guess I finally know who this was made for: http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/31/4380132/acer-aspire-r7-review http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/31/4380132/acer-aspire-r7-rev...
bobbygoodlatte 10y ago
These are all entirely fair points. I agree ThinkPads offer better value for the money in terms of hardware. But I care a lot more about the OS and the software I use than the relative price value of the hardware I'm using. OS X is a far superior operating system from Windows. Even if Lenovo offered computers twice as fast for half the price I won't switch until the user experience of Windows improves.
jagermo 10y ago
I hab an x220. Such a cool machine. EBay has them for 160 euros, i might just get one as a travel system.

238 points by dragonbonheur 10y ago

In addition to Lenovo, consider the XPS 13 and 15. While Dell's quality has been somewhat inconsistent as they launched the line, they stepped up and took care of the problem I encoutered with my XPS 13 and it's quickly become my favorite laptop ever. Great battery life, super portable, an external battery for long flights and an AMAZING screen. It even supports touch, which I don't use all the time, but find nice to have. With either the Lenovo or Dell, make certain to add multi-year same or next day service. With Dell, it's easier to do that from their small business sections than from the home section. If you forget, just call and buy separately. I got my laptop from MS Store due to a sale then called and added 4 years to the warranty. While many rave about the genius bar, I find the "come to my home or office and fix this" experience far preferable.

oldmanjay 10y ago
That's a heck of a sales pitch out of nowhere, extended warranty and everything!
junnan 10y ago
+1 for XPS 13. I installed Archlinux on it, just to get rid of those Windows bloatware.
fluxsauce 10y ago
Edit - never mind, found it. Dell has some dead links. I've been keeping an eye on the XPS 13, but it looks like the "Developer Edition" has gone away. Do you know what the current equivalent is?
- callahad 10y ago
  For others: The XPS 13 "Developer Edition" has been rolled into the mainline XPS 13, and only appears under the "Shop for Work" facet of their online store. For folks in the US, visit http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd and filter by Operating System -> Ubuntu
  - sliken 10y ago
    Be warned that all the kaby lake XPS13 have MUCH slower GPUs then the previous edition with the IRIS 540 graphics.
    - walterbell 10y ago
      Why, will this affect other models and OEMs?
  - stock_toaster 10y ago
    Huh. Looks like you still have to get the touchscreen model to get a configuration with 16gb ram. I was hoping they would allow that by now, but it still looks like 8gb soldered in ram is the only option for the FHD (non-touch) display.
barongrounds 10y ago
Make sure you replace the worthless Broadcom wifi chip with an Intel. It's puzzling that Dell would cheap out on an otherwise excellent machine. At least swapping them out is an easy job.
- mschuster91 10y ago
  At least the Broadcom chipsets can do soft-AP mode on Linux, something that IIRC even the top-notch Intel chipsets can't.
  - vetinari 10y ago
    Are you sure about that? In the past, I've used Centrino N6205 in AP mode to share internet connection of the Thinkpads T430s 3G modem. iw info also says, that it supports AP mode.
- jtbarrett 10y ago
  You could also consider the Precision 5510 [1] if a Quadro GPU works for you. Essentially an XPS 15 but it includes Intel wifi. Recently got one from work and I've been pretty happy with it. [1] http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m5510-workstation/pd http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m5510-workstatio...
- gtaylor 10y ago
  Fwiw, the broadcom chip is supported and works fine with Linux on my XPS 15. No extra work required.
  - barongrounds 10y ago
    It works, but "works fine" is a long stretch. Takes a long time to connect, particularly after suspend, sometimes several minutes or longer. This is true of both windows and Linux.
    - marklyon 10y ago
ceor4 10y ago
How's linux support in the XPS 15?
- jerf 10y ago
  I'm currently running Ubuntu 16.04 on it, and everything I've tried works. But it has taken some fiddling. (I have swapped the wireless for [1] on the advice of a coworker that didn't even like the way the stock one worked on Windows.) I can't vouch for the USB3, Thunderbolt, or Bluetooth because I haven't tried it. Also stock Ubuntu can't control the backlight brightness but xbacklight can, so it seems to be an Ubuntu issue rather than Linux. It also installed next to Windows pretty well, once I turned off Secure Boot in the Bios. Grub worked without hassle. You may also have some fiddling with the AHCI vs. RAID sections in the BIOS; google around for info on that. You may also need to reinstall Windows 10 from scratch to avoid issues with "locked blocks" on the main hard drive so you can shrink partitions, and to deal with the switch from "RAID" to "AHCI" (not strictly necessary but if you're going to reinstall anyhow it works). Depends on the line up. I do recommend that if you get one, you figure out whether you're going to dual-boot immediately, before you "move into" Windows. It's much easier to put together a dual-boot setup with a fresh install of Windows 10, I found. (And it's actually Window's fault, not Linux's, for refusing to evacuate enough of the drive.) If you do plan to reinstall windows, go to the Dell driver page, grab all the relevant ones, and stick them on the Windows 10 installation USB stick you make. (There's a tool from Microsoft that just lets you download the Windows 10 install media, then picks up the license off the motherboard.) Also, I found you will have to install a particular BIOS to make sure you don't get this weird and very annoying screen flicker where it dims for a couple of frames every ten seconds or so; A06 I think from the BIOS page. It has not been the smoothest trip. But then, getting Linux running on a laptop perfectly never is. But I have ended up with a satisfactory primarily-Linux system. (I boot into Windows for games. Dual-boot is less frustrating when booting is so fast; I counted 32 seconds to hibernate Linux, reboot into Windows, and have Steam up and functioning. It's actually faster for me to do that from Linux than to start up my PS3 and be playing a game from a cold AV system start.) [1]: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0167N9R8E/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0167N9R8E/ref=oh_aui_sear...
  - 10y ago
intopieces 10y ago
If you go with Dell, go with either Developer Edition or Windows Signature Edition. I too had an issue with my Dell XPS 9343 (128GB/8GB/"4K" Touch) and a Dell rep came to my house and fixed it. I have two of these now, one for work (FHD) and one for personal (Touch).
- sliken 10y ago
  Dell claims the 3200x1800 screen takes the battery life of the new XP13 from 22 hours to 12. Have you noticed similar?
  - intopieces 10y ago
    I'm running the Skylake version, not Kaby Lake, but yes the battery life is significantly less (8 hours vs about 12, Touch vs FHD). If battery life is your concern, definitely go with the FHD Kaby Lake. It has a matte screen that is absolutely beautiful in 1080p. I had issues with a loose trackpad on the Touch but not the 1080p.
jlgaddis 10y ago
> ... it's easier to do that from their small business sections ... For the last few years, I've recommended to anyone buying a "personal" laptop to order it from the "small business" portals/sites instead of the normal "consumer/home" ones. You usually get better support (or better support options), including US-based phone tech support (personally, that doesn't really matter to me as long as I can understand the support agent but, honestly, it does matter to a lot of people) and sometimes better warranties as well. It may cost a few bucks extra but it's well worth it when the time comes that you need it.
cm2187 10y ago
And if you want an ethernet port, the lattitude E7470. Just don't bother with the fingerprint reader which is pretty much useless.

Apreche 10y ago

Since Lenovo preinstalled spyware/malware they can no longer be trusted.

kyriakos 10y ago
the problem with this argument is that any manufacturer can be preinstalling spyware in the future and you won't know until it becomes public. Lenovo did but apparently stopped after it got caught. My point is that all OEM's are on the same boat.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- fatbird 10y ago
  There's still a pretty big difference between "did install spyware" and "could install spyware". Everyone is a potential criminal; I'm still going to exercise more caution around convicted felons.
- sliken 10y ago
  Lenovo seems pretty unique and adding ugly hacks to their hardware (like disabling ACHI), and then changing the PCI ID of a "fake raid" chip. So not only does this break linux, but it also breaks the standard release of windows. So even if you want to install MS Windows from official microsoft media, you can't. Why would lenovo would disable AHCI (which breaks windows and linux), then mess with a fake RAID (despite having a single storage device). Seems like Lenovo REALLY doesn't want consumers reinstalling the OS.... makes one wonder.
  - cheiVia0 10y ago
    Wasn't it concluded that it was to reduce power usage, and it was Intel that didn't provide a Linux driver? Edit: http://lwn.net/Articles/701635/ http://lwn.net/Articles/701635/
ThatGeoGuy 10y ago
I can sort of understand this sentiment, which is why I would instead encourage people to support https://minifree.org https://minifree.org. Same hardware, but you know the software is under your control. Want everything Lenovo laptops have to offer, but with software you the user can read and control? I don't have one myself, but I've heard good things, and X200s are not so old as to be unusable, especially with Linux.

kinkdr 10y ago

Lenovo lost me when the did the exact same mistake and decided to replace the exceptional Thinkpad keyboard for an inferior one.

mindslight 10y ago
I came from a T61, and I really don't mind the keyboard on my X230. If I had any disagreement with it, I would have promptly swapped it for one from an X220.
- stcredzero 10y ago
  I was thinking of selling my X220. Now, maybe I'll bring it back out.
slededit 10y ago
Despite not being as good as the old IBM keyboards, can you name a laptop with a better one? It seems all the manufacturers make terrible keyboards.
- CrazedGeek 10y ago
  The Razer Blade Pro has a mechanical keyboard: http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-pro http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-pro
  - tetraodonpuffer 10y ago
    it's also 17", has an nvidia 1080 (!) and comes with 32gb of RAM, that is definitely the type of specs that would be nice to have in a development machine... wonder what the battery life will be for it as there are currently no reviews available yet that I could find.
    - sn0v 10y ago
      I don't think the machine is out yet, which probably explains the lack of reviews.

macawfish 10y ago

I've been on x220T/x230T for 3 years now. These are wonderful computers!

jimbokun 10y ago

"Here are the names Apple still uses for their laptops (and yes, these are the actual model names): 13-inch MacBook Pro with 2.0GHz Processor and 256GB Storage 13-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar and Touch ID, 2.9 GHz Processor and 256GB Storage 13-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar and Touch ID, 2.9GHz Processor and 512GB Storage The ThinkPad naming convention makes marketing easier, product differentiation simpler, and by comparison shows us Apple without Jobs the first time was better than Apple without Jobs the second time." Uh, no, those names tell you exactly what the product is. Nobody except extreme aficionados could tell you the significance of 300/500/700 off the top of their head.

ch4ch4 10y ago
Except that you still don't know which generation of processor the MBP has- I still see tons of deceptive Craigslist ads for MBPs that have a "2.0Ghz" processor, with no indication that it's a model from 2011, which is not at all comparable with a "2.0Ghz" processor from 2015.
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  Same goes for NVMe vs. SATA 256 GB SSD, or the 13" 1280x720 TN panel LCD on an 8 year old laptop versus a 13" 4K IPS display today.
- hyperbovine 10y ago
  What are you doing that you would even notice? Honest question. I can't recall a single instance where my 2012 rMBP slowed down due to its age. I mainly code, open tons of browser tabs, and listen to Spotify. Once I got a laptop with built-in SSD, everything just seemed to run at the speed of thought. That has not changed in four years or three operating systems.
  - Roritharr 10y ago
    Not everyone is a webdeveloper that has to link some pngs into some text file and MAYBE batch process some images. There's people with heavy workloads who notice. I really don't understand that attitude. "Because I don't need it, nobody would need it."

ladzoppelin 10y ago

+1 on the XPS 15. Windows 10 with "Bash for Windows"/WSL flies and looks amazing. I think Dell's work with any Linux distro as well. Buy from the MS store and you get a clean version of Windows. Edit: New Surfacebook also looks nice.

philbot1008 10y ago
Buy from the Microsoft Store and you may get a bios-locked laptop that can only run Windows 10. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_micro...
- erk__ 10y ago
  This is pretty outdated now Lenovo has released a bios update for the laptop in question.
  - sliken 10y ago
    What does the new BIOS do?
    - vetinari 10y ago
      Unlocks the AHCI setting, so it doesn't flip back. Meanwhile, Intel also made a driver for Linux that recognizes the RAID mode and works with that.
- yareally 10y ago
  If you're going to link that, I would suggest also reading the stickied reply by a moderator of that subreddit[1] that refutes many of the points made by the OP. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/d7wekux/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_micro...
  - philbot1008 10y ago

antirez 10y ago

There are many good hardware choices at this point in order to replace a Macbook. What is entirely not clear is what software to use to replace a Macbook.

tinalumfoil 10y ago
Linux? Hackintosh? BSD? Windows? TempleOS?
gkop 10y ago
Debian Testing (Stretch) with all its defaults, including its default desktop environment (Gnome 3).
- antirez 10y ago
  I admit it's a few years at this point I don't use a Linux box as my desktop. Is it at a point where, to do all the obvious things like, use Skype, configure a printer, have a decent presentation or video editing software, update my system without hacking with the drivers, I can just have it? My fear is that I'll not be able to do everything I do with my Mac now. A solution could be to install Windows 10 in dual boot maybe, to use commercial software (for video editing, just to make an example, but others may want to do gaming). Trivia: I used only Linux for more than a decade, but I quit and went to macbook because it was a bit like fighting with the system to do basic stuff.
  - minitech 10y ago
    Skype for Linux has a release that’s up-to-date with the Mac and Windows ones now. Can’t help you with presentation or video editing software, though.
    - antirez 10y ago
      Thanks, I think that, while I still have a Macbook that will last a couple of years, I'll install a Linux installation in dual boot so that I can start to understand where I'm headed...

therealmarv 10y ago

Was thinking about Lenovo X series 3 years ago... until I've found out that their IPS display is not that good, it's comparable with a good Macbook Air display (although that is a TN one). For the price of a new X series better get a Macbook Air, it's the more comparable one (also nearly same price region) to Lenovo than the Macbook Pro (this is another league).

stevenhubertron 10y ago
What about the razed blade stealth? It seems fantastic but I don't know anyone using it.
- therealmarv 10y ago
  wow, the razor blade stealth looks actually incredible from first view. But... my requirement was either Linux or macOS. I don't use Windows for anything (and I'm not a gamer).

therealmarv 10y ago

jpm_sd 10y ago

I have a W550S that is the best laptop I've ever owned... and I think I've had at least 15 laptops, two of which were Macs

gesman 10y ago

I made a fair attempt to work on MacBook Pro a year ago and was underwhelmed. Glitches aside, i felt like Apple is trying to convert me to their religion and the view of the world through Apple's glasses. After about 6 month of struggle and I am happy Pro Lenovo user. Having said that - Apple's smartphone offerings are superb and intuitive - exactly how it should be.

actuallyalys 10y ago
> felt like Apple is trying to convert me to their religion and the view of the world through Apple's glasses I regularly use both macOS and Windows, and I don't see what you mean. Can you elaborate?

thisisrobv 10y ago

Was really interested in reading this until.. "ditches the Escape key for a dedicated emoji bar".

sliken 10y ago
There's a model with a normal keyboard, including esc. Even features a 10% larger battery and saves $200.
- vetinari 10y ago
  It also comes with only 2 USB ports, out of which you need one for charging.
  - sliken 10y ago
    So? Generally you are either at a desk (often with a display, keyboard, and mouse), or you are traveling lighter and don't need to connect many usb devices. So for each desk get a widget that takes a tb3/usb-c connection and connects to your mouse/monitor/keyboard. Basically an instant dock. If you really hook up more than one device, travel light, AND need more than 10 hours a day buy a little usb hub. I suspect over 95% of laptop use is either at a desk or requires less than 2 USB-C/tb3 ports.
    - vetinari 10y ago
      Nowadays, TB2 hubs are not cheap (200-300 EUR) and I don't expect TB3 to be cheap either. Just USB3 hub does not cut it, it will be a while until you will be able to connect displays using USB3. Even today, I'm using two TB2 ports and one USB port (i.e. three ports on the computer) because: 1 x miniDP (no, most displays are not TB2 native and cannot daisy-chain with other TB devices), 1 x ethernet adapter (the Apple one cannot daisy-chain either), and USB hub for the rest.
      - sliken 10y ago
        New (granted not quite shipping) hubs/docks sound like $100 or so. You sit down, connect the tb3/usbc cable and your mouse, keyboard, and display works. Of course your laptop is getting charged as well. Preorder for $105 http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/10/28/13453274/arc-hub-bourge-design-usb-c-port-apple-macbook http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/10/28/13453274/a...

hockeybias 10y ago

The comment "the MacBook Pro is the de facto standard laptop issued to all developers, all hackathon attendees, and arguably, anyone who does real work with a computer." is so very, very very beyond laughable.

platz 10y ago

my goto is used thinkpads—the X220 vs T420 was a tough call. Went with T420; even though X220 is a bit more portable and nicer in a few attributes, just felt the 12.5in panel not ideal for complex app UIs, whereas 14in is pretty comfortable with any work environment I can throw at it.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

extr 10y ago

Thinkpads definitely get over-recommended on the internet, but I have been really pleased with my X220. I bought a corporate refurb on ebay a year ago for about $200. It has sailed along since then. Any problems I have I am confident I can repair and parts are cheap and plentiful. At one point I replaced the DC jack and WiFI card in an hour or two with a screwdriver and a youtube video (total cost: $25). It runs linux flawlessly with plenty of horsepower despite the 2012 era CPU. RAM is easily upgradeable and it has a 2nd drive bay. If you are comfortable with putting together your own PC (which I suspect most of the HN audience is), you will get way more mileage out of it than buying a newish chromebook for a similar price. I've heard rumors of a "thinkpad classic" machine in the same form factor with an upgraded CPU, USB 3.0, and high res screen, which I would love.

post_break 10y ago
I have an X201 sitting next to me. It could heat my office or dry my hair when idling. I wish I could just plop in a better cpu and keep the chassis.
btgeekboy 10y ago
I have a similar story with my T430. Ivy Bridge CPU, 8GB, and two internal SSDs (one msata). It's a tank, and worth the $300 or so I paid. Upgraded it to add the msata ssd and add a backlit keyboard, and it's a great beater laptop for when I don't need portability.

jwatte 10y ago

Just get a Razer Blade. It's the same weight and form factor as a MBP, but black and with a real GPU. Run Windows 10 if you just want to get work done, or Debian or something if you need metal Linux (as opposed to VMs)

hxegon 10y ago
Also take a look at the razor blade stealth for something cheaper, if you don't need a dedicated graphics card. (although you can hook up a razer core if you need one)
- sliken 10y ago
  Ugh, wish they did the same thing as apple. Use the previous generation skylake with a decent GPU. qhd (let along 4k) is quite a few pixels for such a weak GPU.
lifeformed 10y ago
I agree, I use one for game dev and it works great. The build quality is top notch, and the new ones have amazing specs.
enave 10y ago
Is there a reason why the company spells their name with an "e" instead of an "o"
- MagnumOpus 10y ago
  Googlability? (Like flattr, grindr, etc).

platz 10y ago

Why did they recommend the T400 over the T420?

vetinari 10y ago
Due to Intel Management Engine - basically a binary blob, that you don't know what it is doing. T400 is Core 2 Duo machine and works without IME. T420 is i5/i7 machine and IME is a requirement and you cannot make a BIOS replacement without it.
- platz 10y ago
  I didn't know people felt that stongly about arbitrary binary blobs. I know this is hackaday and open hardware and all, but if im going to be worried about binary blobs im going to be worried about a ton of netsec related stuff in other boxes too. Just wonderin' who this is really biting, assuming the intended individual was also already a closed-source, secretive apple fan.
  - vetinari 10y ago
    It's not an arbitrary binary blob. It's blob that's running at SMM level. A perfect place for rootkits.
    - platz 10y ago
      There was an article the other day about a man who lets his children go on the top of his roof. He made a calculation that the probability that harm would occur was low enough to be acceptable. I do a much similar thing; will follow up with you if/when my bios gets rooted.
    - yuhong 10y ago
      AFAIK it is not SMM, it is a separate CPU. IMO, the most important lesson everyone should learn however is the laptop anti-theft arms race is horrible too.

hxegon 10y ago

Anyone tried have one of the new razer blade stealths? I'm eyeing one (16gb, kaby lake i7, 500+gb ssd) for 1400, and curious what others experiences are.

antisthenes 10y ago

My recent experience with Lenovo shunned me away from Thinkpads for the foreseeable future and from Lenovo in general as a customer. After placing an order for a Thinkpad that I needed urgently, they, without explanation or email canceled the order the next day. Trying to contact customer service, I found out that their online chat employees have no access to customer order history, because "the functionality isn't there yet". Direct quote from support. 2 months later I got an email from them, asking how I like my purchase (7 weeks into using a Dell laptop) Not to mention their site being unusable in 3/4 browsers I tried to order. The level of incompetence from them is just staggering.

hxegon 10y ago
Seriously, why is their site such a trash fire? Across 4 computers I've not once seen it work well. I'm thinking about getting a new computer, but even though I loved my old x230 I'm not thinking about getting a lenovo now because I can't research the laptops on lenovos own site!
- detaro 10y ago
  Yeah, the site is horrible. Everybody I know orders their Lenovos from resellers because of it (added bonus that you can get better/cheaper configurations Lenovo doesn't sell, swap 3G modules for extra SSDs and stuff like that)
Esau 10y ago
The website is indeed horrible. Also, why does every PC maker try to get you to do a survey within five seconds of arriving?

electic 10y ago

Nuff said. [1] [1] http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/19/technology/security/lenovo-superfish/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/19/technology/security/lenovo-s...

mmmpop 10y ago

The glory days of the IBM T-series are over and I can't trust Lenovo to not spy on me, so I moved on from Thinkpads. My ASUS Zenbook has been a nice change of pace and I'd recommend it to anyone looking to get away from the Apple ecosystem. Windows has improved a good bit since I last worked in it ~5 years ago and while not nearly perfect, Bash on Windows by Ubuntu or whatever they call it is a pretty solid replacement for Putty :)

mmmpop 10y ago

unicornporn 10y ago

Such a good timing. I've been using Macs for over ten years now, but I bought an x220 for $130 a couple of weeks ago and it's been my favorite laptop yet. Super serviceable and works so well with Ubuntu MATE. The display sucks though (didn't get the UPS version). Just go ahead!

qwertyuiop924 10y ago

If I get one, I'm installing Linux, FreeBSD, or OpenBSD on it. ME is bad enough, and I don't trust Lenovo after what they did.

dgudkov 10y ago

I really miss the ThinkLight in new Thinkpads. It's so convenient.

dewiz 10y ago

I was very disappointed too, however I've seen similar disappointments when Apple dropped CDROM, usb, audio jacks etc. Eventually everyone gets used to it, and admittedly they are trying to simplify the keyboard IMHO. I'm super happy to have bought a maxed out mbp15 before not too long ago, so I won't have to deal with the devices/adaptors market catching up to Apple. And BTW, looks like the disappointment is all around the keyboard. FWIW I use an external KB most of the time so I wouldn't care even if I upgraded and lose my Fx keys. Anyway Linux is not ready to replace MacOS simply because it lacks many apps, Windows...well that's a joke for your battery and its Bash implementation is still too young, let's see in 3 years from now. My 2 cents, ymmv

pmarreck 10y ago
No word on the invisibly-killed-off and yet so sexy Mac Pro, I guess :P
- sparky_ 10y ago
  But can it run Desert Combat? :)
  - pmarreck 10y ago
    HEY! YOU! ;) What's up? Playing Overwatch these days, at least until I can actually play Battlefield 1 (waiting on some cash for new hardware)
andromeduck 10y ago
Yeah I've really yet to see a credible iTerm 2 like alternative on W10 even if WSL works out.
- Eridrus 10y ago
  Assuming WSL works out, what do you find lacking?
dbg31415 10y ago

gambiting 10y ago

"I need to edit video or do other work that is CPU and memory intensive A laptop is not for you. Here’s PCPartPicker. Build your own desktop. It’s like Lego, but for adults." Yeah, cool, let me know when I can take a desktop in my hand luggage. There are people who legitimately need a lot of CPU power and lots of ram in a laptop - and there are products for them ( http://www.eurocom.com/ec/configure(2,270,0)ec http://www.eurocom.com/ec/configure(2,270,0)ec ) being dismissive is not helpful.

vladimir-y 10y ago

Lenovo laptops suck more than Apple, they not even able to plug Thunderbolt 3 port into the laptop, not a single port. No frame less laptops like Dell XPS or HP Spectre x360 (both have been recently updated to the Kaby Lake CPU). Lenovo is outsider.

rayiner 10y ago

Lenvo sucks now too. Their flagship laptop, the T460s, now has a non-removable battery. Their shtick has always been "yes, it's a bit bigger and heavier than a MBP, but it's expandable!" Now the T460s isn't any more expandable than the 13" rMBP, and has a lot less battery life. You can drop down to the T460, but it's not made of the same premium materials, and also doesn't even come with the high-resolution screen option. People are flipping out about the escape key, but Lenovo won't sell you a 14" laptop that has both a high-res display and a battery big enough to run it!

hackuser 10y ago
The T560, which has an optional 15.x" 3K screen, has both an internal and a removable battery.
basch 10y ago
the T460s is the slim model, the flagship standard T460 still has a removable battery. They should make the S as thin as possible, so they can keep the standard model without compromise. The s series is the compromised T460 for slimness, cant have it both ways.
- rayiner 10y ago
  The T460s is the flagship. It's built with better materials (https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/466bb9/t460_vs_t460s_build_quality/d02tcnv https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/466bb9/t460_vs_t4...), and also has the WQHD display option which the T460 does not. I'm not sure what it was like in older Thinkpads, but for the last few cycles (T450s, T440s), the 's' series has been strictly better: same guts, but lighter and thinner by virtue of a more expensive chassis. The "Carbon" series was always the "super thin and light" option.
willtim 10y ago
It is easily removable with a screwdriver and won't void the warranty, replacement batteries are reasonably priced. The MBP battery is glued-in and only replaceable by Apple at vast expense. That's the trade-off that Apple make, which you fail to acknowledge. The T460 and T460p offer more battery capacity.

pyrophane 10y ago

I've been disappointed by the lack of true MacBook Pro 15 alternatives, and it doesn't seem like Lenovo offers one in the ThinkPad line, either. What I want: Quad-core CPU, decent-ish discrete graphics, a great screen, a somewhat compact case that doesn't weight a ton. What I get: An endless supply of 13" ultrabooks, 6+ lb. gaming laptops with 2 hour batteries that sound like an airline taking off on startup, sub-$800 junkers, and the "mobile workstation" that still has an optical drive. Afaik, only the XPS 15 and Razor Blade (14") really come close to the sweet spot. The XPS 15 is still awaiting its Skylake update, and the Razor, while nice, is a bit too gamey for me. Of course, I'd want to run Linux and with the mishmash that is the current state of linux HiDPI support and uncertain future of Weyland nvidia and ati drivers, I'm not really sure where that leaves me.

justinholmes 10y ago
https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/notebooks/9445/ https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/notebooks/9445/
phaedrix 10y ago
XPS 15 9550 has Skylake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_XPS#XPS_15_.28Touch.29.5B20.5D_.289530.2F9550.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_XPS#XPS_15_.28Touch.29.5B...

lcbiazon 10y ago

I often read about happy x220 and x230 users, but the newer x240/x250/x260 are not mentioned as much. Did the build quality decline after Lenovo took over?

XiaomiFan 10y ago
X220, X230 are made by Lenovo.
camgunz 10y ago
Keyboards after the x220 are chiclet, which is sacrilege to most ThinkPad users (me included). x240 really messed up the mouse buttons that you'd use with the TrackPoint: they're touch instead of click and poorly executed. x250 and x260 fix that problem more or less, and the keyboard on the x260 is appreciably better than the x240, but it's still chiclet. The main draw of the ThinkPad is that it's an unparalleled input system (TrackPoint means never leaving the home row, keyboards are second to none), they're very tough, have great battery life, very serviceable, and you can get amazing deals on eBay or through outlet/refurbishing. If you go with the X series, they're also the only < 13" machines that have replaceable batteries, a full complement of ports, reasonable specs, etc. In other words, they're the perfect dev machine. The cons are pretty bad screens, thickness, and relatively poor trackpads.

api 10y ago

Lenovo installs malware by default, so nope.

sangnoir 10y ago

> Eventually everyone gets used to it, and admittedly they are trying to simplify the keyboard IMHO No, not everyone. I remember the time Apple "simplified" Final Cut Pro "X". The professional users moved on to other products and never looked back.

nicky0 10y ago
This seems rather a generalisation. I wonder how true this really is.

DominikR 10y ago

Lenovo has some nice hardware, I used it for years, but the problem is that their own software is unusable and the OS options are lagging, at least for me. Yes you can install Linux, but I'm not going to pay a premium price to then spend my time hunting down the correct drivers and in the end still have some hardware not supported. Either all of the hardware that I paid for is fully supported by some Linux distribution and on top of that I don't have to lift a finger to keep it updated or I'm not buying at that price. I pay and you solve my problems, not I pay and you deliver me a bunch of new problems that I'll have to tinker with. That's really why I switched to Mac's. I'm also not terribly convinced by the new touchpad, but maybe it'll grow on me.

nodesocket 10y ago

I'm growing so tired and weary of complaining and the continuous cycle of outraged on the internet. The latest example is Apple and the new MacBooks. Tim, this is why leadership of companies at the top by "committee" doesn't work. You need a strong leader (type A) that is a dictator to silence the masses and guide the company forward. Otherwise, you get a million different voices speaking up thinking they are somehow instantly experts in a field.

drinchev 10y ago

I said this in another thread. Will say it again. Whenever your boss comes and asks you "What would you like to be your primary machine?". I bet you will reply "Latest MacBook Pro". Yeah sure it will be kinda hard for you with 16 gigs of RAM, but nonetheless much easier than having a Hackintosh.

danjoc 10y ago
>I bet you will reply "Latest MacBook Pro". My reply was a Razer Stealth, but I was told I had to get an Apple. So, I'm getting a $2800 dual core laptop, because I need F-keys. At least I'll be allowed to install Linux on it.

gkya 10y ago

My dream laptop: - Remove the function keys, remove escape, and all other ancient stuff like Sys Rq and Pause / Break, remove arrow keys, remove Page Up etc. Swap the places of the trackpad and the keyboard so the keyboard is closer to me and the mouse is farther away. I use the former most of the time, and it's more ergonomical that way. - No moving parts; have a 64GB SSD disk, a 4-8GB RAM, a decent CPU that supports virtualisation, open-source compatible hardware (i.e. run any Linux and any BSD systems on it, OpenBSD for me, especially), no cam or mic, generally no recording devices, have a decent speaker, USB ports, two jacks, one for the mic one for the earphones. - Thin, light, 15.6"-13" in size. - Battery that guarantees me at least 3-4 hrs of time, under load. Weight or thinness can be compromised to achieve that.

rahrahrah 10y ago
> remove escape, ( ... ) remove arrow keys, remove Page Up etc. Do you even code bro?
- gkya 10y ago
  I run an emacs/vtwm/FreeBSD setup and I've done professional coding in the recent past and have very recently gotten two patches into GNU Emacs, though I'm a humanities undergrad nowadays.
  - rahrahrah 10y ago
    > I run an emacs/vtwm/FreeBSD setup Not sure what that has to do with coding, but go on > I've done professional coding in the recent past and have very recently gotten two patches into GNU Emacs, though I'm a humanities undergrad nowadays. Yes exactly, you don't code, that's why you think it's a good idea to remove page up/down.
grapeshot 10y ago
Well I guess I finally know who this was made for: http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/31/4380132/acer-aspire-r7-review http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/31/4380132/acer-aspire-r7-rev...

bobbygoodlatte 10y ago

These are all entirely fair points. I agree ThinkPads offer better value for the money in terms of hardware. But I care a lot more about the OS and the software I use than the relative price value of the hardware I'm using. OS X is a far superior operating system from Windows. Even if Lenovo offered computers twice as fast for half the price I won't switch until the user experience of Windows improves.

jagermo 10y ago

I hab an x220. Such a cool machine. EBay has them for 160 euros, i might just get one as a travel system.