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Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

208 points by baazaar 10y ago

HSO 10y ago
It better be, given the cost of living and the salaries here… :-) On a more serious note, although I have no idea how this report was produced, one might note that it was produced by the WEF (a business-friendly Swiss organisation) and that it may well be part of the ongoing political debate in Switzerland on how to implement the referendum result on restricting immigration. I'm not saying it's right, wrong, objective, or not, I honestly have no opinion. Just providing some context.
- jahnu 10y ago
  Is the cost of living proportional to competitiveness? Anyway, it seems like a mystery to me why tech firms like Google set up shop in small expensive Zurich instead of say cheaper, bigger Barcelona or Vienna, for example. I'd love to know what the incentives are for them.
  - PetitPrince 10y ago
    Proximity to both ETH and EPFL, two relatively well regarded academic institutions ? Full disclosure: I'm certainly biased since I'm both Swiss and a recent graduate from EPFL.
    - jahnu 10y ago
      Interesting. How many people do they snap up from there though?
    - jsnell 10y ago
      Mostly irrelevant. I would be surprised if more than 10% of the Zurich-based Google engineers are Swiss or products of the Swiss education system.
      - ucaetano 10y ago
        Not at all. Proximity to those universities helps create a high-tech cluster, just as Ames, Stanford and Berkeley created the SF Bay Area's high-tech cluster.
        jsnell 10y ago
        I'm not sure there is any kind of exceptional software engineering cluster in Zurich compared to other major European cities. But even if there were, it wouldn't matter to Google. There are no major network effects or cross-pollination with the ecosystem. Practically everyone who goes to work at that office is relocating from elsewhere. And if people leave, it's rarely to work at some other company in Zurich, but usually to move to another country. I'm not saying that ETHZ and EPFL aren't great universities. I just don't see any reason to believe they are a major factor in this particular case, directly or indirectly. (Just to give an idea of where my comments are coming from, I worked at Google Zurich for 4 years, and then another 4 doing a Zurich-based startup).
        ucaetano 10y ago
        That's a good point, maybe the cluster is more around physics and chemistry, and not computer science. Thanks for sharing!
      - rakyll 10y ago
        I had a big group of coworkers from EPFL when I was working for Google Switzerland. At some point, I actually questioned whether we have a bias for these schools. EPFL or ETH are definitely not something I'd consider as just "Swiss education system". These schools are what Stanford or Berkeley are in their region, and are highly international.
    - deleted 10y ago
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  - HSO 10y ago
    Well, in Google's case, there's ETH Zurich. Just today, I saw in the newspaper (WSJ university rankings[1]) that ETH was rated top of the pops globally in computer science. (On a related note, I remember vaguely that Disney built a research lab here in Zurich just because of one professor and his team.[2]) Also, in the good old times (= before the rise of right-wing populism and the referendum) Google could attract good people from all over Europe here because in terms of living standard and salary, it could be considered a step up from almost anywhere else in Europe. Plus the central location and the infrastructure. I think in the grand scheme of things, Zurich/Switzerland has a lot to offer. I've always felt that people who argue against Switzerland only on the basis of the high salaries and cost of living are a bit like people who argue against Apple on the basis of "speeds and feeds". There's a lot more to being business-friendly than being cheap. But yeah, who knows, all this may change now, as indeed the report warns. Openness is a pretty big deal for a small, open economy like Switzerland. ______________ [1] EDIT: Just checked again, it was the Times Higher Education World University Ranking, as reported in the WSJ today. Direct link to table here: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2017/subject-ranking/computer-science#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank_label/sort_order/asc/cols/rank_only https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin... [2] EDIT: Got curious from writing this and landed on their homepage. Their first sentence starts with: "Our lab in Zürich is perfectly placed for easy access to the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zürich (ETH)…" That kind of drives the point home, doesn't it? ;-) Source: https://www.disneyresearch.com/research-labs/disney-research-zurich/ https://www.disneyresearch.com/research-labs/disney-research...
    - erichocean 10y ago
      > I remember vaguely that Disney has a research lab here in Zurich just because of one professor and his team. They do amazing work, actually. Some seriously good CG researches in Zurich.
    - __mp 10y ago
      Disney Research Zürich is super awesome. I did my master thesis there
      - 10y ago
  - anonymousDan 10y ago
    Almost certainly proximity to EPFL and ETH.
  - guest 10y ago
    "Anyway, it seems like a mystery to me why tech firms like Google set up shop in small expensive Zurich instead of say cheaper, bigger Barcelona or Vienna, for example." The reason is simple: tax-evation and the like, Swiss is well known for it around Europe. That it hasn't been dealt with is not strange since we live in the age of hidden plutocracy (trading outposts and the like exist in many countries for the rich to circumvent the law - this should put Brexit in a new light for some). Things are slowly changing for the better as people start to realise what is the real problem within society (or rather outside society), but seing as what happened to the "Panama" leak where the concentraded information wasn't released and basically ICIJ sat on it for a year or so (the initial estimates during that time dwindles from over $62T to less than $30T, the official cause was accounting for the same money several times).
    - tonfa 10y ago
      > The reason is simple: tax-evation and the like Source? Switzerland is famous for its private banking sector and it used to be easy to hide assets for individuals (with FACTA and tax data sharing, I don't think it's as popular now, or at least the minimum amount required is way higher since banks don't want the risk). Unlike Ireland, I'm not aware of Switzerland being commonly used to reduce corporate tax (at least in IT).
      - a3camero 10y ago
        Here's a well-known Canadian Supreme Court case about transfer pricing that highlights the role of a Swiss subsidiary in a scheme to dramatically reduce taxes on income earned from selling pharmaceuticals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_v_GlaxoSmithKline_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_v_GlaxoSmithKline_Inc
        jomamaxx 10y ago
        Transfer pricing is not 'tax evasion' - it's 'tax avoidance'. To be clear, 'tax evasion' is illegal. Most companies do what they can to avoid paying taxes, which is rational in some ways, but they usually don't do anything illegal. It's important that we don't mix the two :)
  - ucaetano 10y ago
    Taxes and payroll taxes are much lower in Switzerland than in France, for example, so an employee might cost the same to the company in both countries, but have much more net income in Switzerland. Most people don't see payroll taxes, only income taxes. Having a large percentage of foreigners and English-speakers also contributes to that, as well as the clustering effect (IBM Research has a lab in Zurich since 1956).
    - erispoe 10y ago
      The median income in Switzerland is PPP$35,083 and PPP$24,233 in France. The main difference is in healthcare, which in Switzerland is entirely private, post-payroll, and can easily amount to $500/month, whereas in France it's part public (payroll) part private. And the private part is usually paid on payroll too. Health insurance is mandatory in Switzerland, so it really is not disposable income, even if you have provider choice.
      - tibbe 10y ago
        Health insurance starts at around CHF 280/month for a 35 year old currently: https://en.comparis.ch/krankenkassen/grundversicherung/krankenversicherung-auslaender/praemien/result?inputGuid=5782b179-2ccf-40bd-bc6a-99b4778f9b97 https://en.comparis.ch/krankenkassen/grundversicherung/krank... You can reduce that if you opt for less choice (e.g. you can only use particular doctors) to around CHF 235/month.
      - ucaetano 10y ago
        The healthcare wouldn't even account for half of the difference. And you're not taking in account the payroll taxes. France has a combined payroll taxes of almost 40%, while Switzerland is <15%. So not only Swiss workers make more money, but they also cost less than French workers. Source: OECD, http://taxfoundation.org/article/comparison-tax-burden-labor-oecd http://taxfoundation.org/article/comparison-tax-burden-labor...
      - deleted 10y ago
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      - 10y ago
  - victornomad 10y ago
    They give tax benefits to companies under certain conditions, similar to what happens in Dublin. It doesnt have to do anything with the ETH or EPFL. As far as I know most of the people working at G Zurich are not swiss. Regarding your first question... Its not the same to work in the field and sell tomatoes to sell ponzi tiered insurances or do business holding the money of the biggest "rich families" from europe.
  - davidw 10y ago
    > Anyway, it seems like a mystery to me why tech firms like Google set up shop in small expensive Zurich instead of say cheaper, bigger Barcelona or Vienna, for example Have you seen where Google HQ is located in the US? Same story. And it's not about tax avoidance: California is not a low-tax state.
  - Annatar 10y ago
    I'd love to know what the incentives are for them. ETH Zürich is among the top ten computer science schools in the world, that's what. Zürich was and is a glamorous place to live, au pair with New York, Tokyo or Milano, and after the "Brexit", Zürich is the new London now. Financial industry is withdrawing from the island and going home. Those things create incentives and an upward spiral for Zürich. And also bear in mind that Confoederatio Helvetica has some of the lowest taxes in the world; it's every American republican's wet dream in terms of that.
    - mike_hearn 10y ago
      Heh. Political bias much? I'm a Brit who lives in Zürich. I would not describe Zürich as being anywhere near as glamorous as New York nor as being the "new London". It's a lovely city to live in, but it's tiny - the entire population of Switzerland is smaller than the population of London and that reflects in the variety of things to do, things to see, services available and so on. My brother lives in London Zone 1 and I am often envious of the fantastic things that city has to offer. The Brexit vote was three months ago. So far nothing has changed, and the financial industry is certainly not moving to Switzerland - which is also not in the EU! Moreover, the Swiss voted against freedom of movement as well in 2014 and the implementation deadline is in February. The Swiss Parliament are busy demonstrating exactly how compatible the EU and democracy are (not at all) by attempting to push through local hiring preference laws when the referendum, which is constitutionally binding, stated explicitly that it was a vote on imposing quotas. The SVP is not happy and a fight is looming. Quite possibly the Swiss will chicken out given how evenly divided society is on the topic of immigration, but if attitudes have hardened since 2014 or if the SVP is able to turn this into a fight on the topic of democracy itself, Switzerland may find itself on the same side as the UK very quickly indeed. I don't actually want the Swiss to impose immigration quotas on people like me, that can only make life more complicated, but Swiss direct democracy is an admirable thing and I am 100% convinced it's a part of the reason Switzerland is so successful. Watching the EU systematically tell voters in the most successful European countries to bend the knee is not impressing me one bit.
      - Annatar 10y ago
- kowdermeister 10y ago
  Is it easy to get a job in Switzerland as developer + EU citizen? Is it likely to change because of immigration regulations?
  - hiou 10y ago
    Yes
    - chrisper 10y ago
      Yes to which part?
  - Annatar 10y ago
    No, unless you're in a medical profession or German, or both. Try applying for a job in Switzerland and you will get so much pre-canned refusal correspondence that your head will spin. The country is overcrowded and the Swiss are not thrilled about having foreigners in their country, unless they absolutely have no choice, and even then they secretly hate it. As far as they're concerned, if you're very rich you're welcome to buy property or drop your money into Switzerland, and you're very welcome to come visit as a tourist, but everyone should stay where they come from, no-matter-what.
    - misja111 10y ago
      I don't know about other area's, but as a developer it is well doable to get a job in Switzerland. What you're saying about the Swiss hating foreigners is definitely not true, I would even say the opposite. But the competition for IT jobs is a bit more tough than in some other countries in the EU. I don't know why that is, maybe it's because of the outflow of the ETH or maybe it's just that Swiss jobs are so popular with foreigners.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Well, remember that this is effectively Schwab scoring how well a country agrees with them on policy. There's quite a bit of depth to it, but it's not 'directly' measuring competitiveness. It's more like racing form vs. race results. I also wonder if the very high value of the Swiss Franc artificially inflates the number, but I wasn't able to figure this out from a cursory reading.
- ohthehugemanate 10y ago
  The cost of living should be considered along with their income tax rate. It varies from canton (province) to canton, but hovers around 10%. That's a great deal compared to most any other European country. In neighboring Germany for instance, if you earn €55k, your tax rate is about 44% (including solidarity surcharge). In Zurich it's about 11% (canton plus federal tax). The top rates are 47% and 16%, respectively. So it's not much surprise that people want to live there, despite the high cost of living.
  - ekianjo 10y ago
    In Belgium about half of your salary goes to taxes.
    - truth_sentinell 10y ago
      Is it worth it?
      - jedmeyers 10y ago
        People holding government jobs and on welfare would say "yes, definitely".
        truth_sentinell 10y ago
        So you don't benefit at all from other people's taxes?
        kartan 10y ago
        Government jobs like the people that takes care of mental illness, policemen trained to act in a thoughtful way, teachers, etc. I'm happy to live in a country with high taxes and a good level of services for every one. To be in San Francisco, for example, was a sad experience. There was so much money and good people, but still you could see so much homeless people in the streets.
      - roel_v 10y ago
- fulafel 10y ago
  > I have no idea how this report was produced Also it's based on a survey responses from corporate executives. A mean name for it might be "the country popularity contest as judged by corporate fat cats". Though the survey questions do obviously direct it towards objective pastures. Hah! The example question presented in the PR material is "In your country, to what extent is intellectual property protected?" - a poster child of where corporate executives might have a diametrically opposite view from the real makers re. what's good for the country's competitiveness.
noobermin 10y ago
I always feel like it is unfair how we place different European nations in same category as the US in these rankings or whatever, and for the US, we average over all the states in the US. As homogenous the US is, different states have different economies, different laws, in some cases, some slight but important cultural differences. Is it really fair to say have the US compete on terms of "competitiveness" or in other cases, happiness, education standards, with Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, or is it more fair to have them compete with California, Texas, New York, etc.
- erichocean 10y ago
  > different states have different economies Eh, not really. Central bank-controlled states are a reasonable grouping measure, which is why it's the US, EU, Switzerland, the UK, etc. that people compare (even though the UK is part of the EU, and Switzerland has signed on to most economic measures the EU mandates).
  - deleted 10y ago
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  - humanrebar 10y ago
    It's different enough. They are notable enough for their own wiki pages. Analysts spend their careers studying individual states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas Maybe 'central bank control' is a reasonable grouping measure, but 'size of economy' is also reasonable. There is certainly more nuance than a simple ranking can model. And the 'central bank' argument is muddied by the existence of the Euro and the particular economic struggles of countries like Greece.
  - noobermin 10y ago
    A central bank (and thus a state that can perform monetary policy) is important, but in many of these reports and rankings they do cut across the Eurozone. For example, this competitiveness report places Eurozone nations against one another in the ranking (see page 15 for the ranking, US is #3 behind Singapore and Switzerland).
davidw 10y ago
Not ranked so highly here: http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings They get big dings for 'starting a business' and 'protecting minority shareholders'.
guest 10y ago
Anyway, it seems like a mystery to me why tech firms like Google set up shop in small expensive Zurich instead of say cheaper, bigger Barcelona or Vienna, for example. The reason is simple: tax-evation and the like.
- sschueller 10y ago
  But why Zürich which has a relatively high tax rate compared to for example Zug?
  - vidoc 10y ago
    Zurich has an international airport, Zug doesn't
    - href 10y ago
      The extra 30 minutes of travel hardly matter. I'd say it's the fact that Zürich has more available talent.
- aaronds 10y ago
  Isn't one appeal of the city being able to attract talent from ETH Zurich?
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  Thats a funny conclusion about Vienna because Austrian banks are great for tax evasion and pretty much reporting of anything. Some jurisdictions market slight nuances in their laws to foreigners as a perk, and other jurisdictions simply have, and if you can read you can avoid the stereotypes.
  - the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
    FWIW you are an idiot if you use Austrian banks for tax evasion.
    - 10y ago
NN88 10y ago
for a nation of 8 million...
zxcvvcxz 10y ago
Interesting, can somebody remind me of these Swiss-based world changing startups that I somehow can't recall?
- threesixandnine 10y ago
  Startups are only a small part of the economy and majority of world changing stuff happens outside shiny startup world.
squigs25 10y ago
Keep in mind, we have a company called "swissinfo" declaring that Switzerland has the most competitive economy. Bias much?
- mtmail 10y ago
  You can argue against the WEF who created the study. But the newspaper itself is not declaring anything more than the study presents. "Switzerland achieved its highest score of 5.8 out of 7 in the WEF Global Competitiveness Report 2016/2017"
- faebi 10y ago
  It belongs to the SRG which is funded by swiss people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissinfo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissinfo
tn13 10y ago
I will not be surprised. Switz is also easily among the top 10 most economically free countries in the world. Economic freedom, competitiveness and foreign direct investments are so well correlated with economic freedom. Australia's ranking seems extremely puzzling though. The general perception is that it is very very competitive economy.
- wycx 10y ago
  It is not that puzzling if you live in Australia and pay attention to the economy. We have a residential real estate bubble that is worse than that of the US in 2006. Median house price to median income ratios in Sydney are worse than almost anywhere but Hong Kong. We have the highest per capita private mortgage debt of any country. This represents a massive unproductive overhead on the Australian economy, as the elevated cost of shelter flows into all other costs. Tax arrangements in Australia make leveraged real estate speculation more favourable than any other kind of investment, especially productive investment with any sort of risk attached. More than 50% of the existing mortgage debt is owed overseas via the big 4 Australian banks, so we are constantly exporting what wealth we have overseas as interest, so we can sell shitty houses built in the 1960s to each other for AUD1.2 million. Many sectors of the Australian economy are filled by a limited number of participants (e.g. banking, supermarkets, hardware, telecommunications, petrol) who are most interested in rent seeking, and not interested in competing with each other. The Australian economy has been a net importer of capital every year since the early 1970s, an almost ever year since post WW2. If you run a current account deficit so egregiously, the result is you sell off all your productive assets to stay solvent. This also means the pool of Australian capital available to invest in Australia itself is very limited. Australia has some of the highest immigration intake in the developed world, but no long term infrastructure planning to account for such population growth. Since most immigration increases the population of the large cities, the lack of investment in transport infrastructure is most apparent. We grow the economy by increasing the captias. Per capital net disposable income has been static or falling for the last 5 years. Politically, Australia has been without vision for real economic development outside rewarding entrenched rent seekers for the last 20 years. We have not seen any significant increases in productivity over that period.
arbuge 10y ago
To mean, this sounds pretty meaningless. If true, I would take it to mean that if you start a successful business in, say, the USA, you are likely to face your most dangerous competition from Switzerland. Hardly likely unless you're working on something like watches or private banking...
rdl 10y ago
If this were true I'd expect them to have less generally mediocre datacenters and network carriers. They are markedly inferior to the US and most European countries, including much less wealthy countries.
guest 10y ago
Anyone got a proper map over black fibre and the national grid of Switzerland? Could it be possible that "google" simply wants to access the data inbetween germany, france and italy (etc)? Onyx is set up on route between Zurich and those nations..? Zürich [url]https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCrich#Geografi[/url] https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCrich#Geografi[/url] Onyx [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_%28interception_system%29#Active_sites[/url] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_%28interception_system%29...
icantdrive55 10y ago
I have a few questions for Swiss expats. Could you tell me about the Swiss culture--at bit? I know it's a huge topic. Just some of the differences you see between the Swiss, and say Americans. I mainly interested in the Millenials. What do they think of Americans? Do they basically have the same hobbies? Are their any stark differences in what they value? Do they view Americans as spoiled? Do they fear us? This next question is very specific, and probally weird. I heard teens love 50's Cadilliacs. I love them too, but I heard they are more desired there, than in America? What is it about older Caddys? Are their fashion differences? Here we have kids spending hundred of dollars on tennis shoes, specifically Nikes. Has that fad hit Switzerland? Are women more, or less fashion conscience than Americans? Just any insider observation? I've been interested in Switzerland since I began Watch Repair a decade ago.
- therealpeal 10y ago
  Are these serious questions?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- xrjn 10y ago
  This is a pretty good overview of how Swiss people see Americans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-l59gZKLEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-l59gZKLEI Its from a comedy show which do shorts like this on all sorts of stereotypes, however this was the one of the most controversial ones. The US embassy even got involved in the end.
- mike_hearn 10y ago
  This is a weird list of questions. I am a migrant to Switzerland (trying not to use the word expat anymore). Swiss people are not very different to Americans in what they value, what hobbies they have, etc. They are much less outgoing, however. In America you can walk into a bar anywhere, at any time, sit down and have a spontaneous conversation with the barman or strangers sitting at the bar. This never happens in Switzerland. Do not expect it even if you speak good German. People in Switzerland keep to themselves. Because this makes it very hard to make friends there are a lot of "expat" events for immigrants to meet each other, and at these events you can go to a bar and start chatting to people of a similar age and background to yourself and make friends. This is how I made most of my friends: I have a few good Swiss friends, but overall most of my friends throughout my time in Switzerland were other foreigners. Swiss people do not "fear" Americans, why would you have that idea? They do not spend a whole lot of time thinking about Americans in particular. The vast majority of people who live in the cities (and you want to be in the cities), and especially teenagers, do not own cars at all. Not only is there no need (public transport and taxis can get you everywhere) but there isn't usually enough parking and it's very expensive. People generally only buy a car once they settle down and move out of the cities. People on the street in Switzerland tend to be well dressed and fashionable, and the women especially so. The high streets are dominated by fashion brands and shops. I can't compare this to the USA because I've only been to a few places there, but it's definitely a brand and fashion conscious place.
faebi 10y ago
Nobody mentioned yet the swiss apprenticeship system. Most young people make one and I think it is a main factor. The thing is the economy nearly always educates as much people as it needs. Within a 10 year range there should be always as much people as needed. So if one sector grows there are usually more available apprenticeships in that sector so that withing 10 years this hole should get fixed. Also I should mention that this is mostly good for the median person not for the top 1%.
- wrong_variable 10y ago
  what is good for the median person is also good for the 1%
Iv 10y ago
And everyday I hear people saying that direct democracy can't work
abysmallyideal 10y ago
By competitive they must surely mean expensive and selective. Hahahahaaa
s3nnyy 10y ago
I live in Zurich. Due to the high-living standard, salaries, size, central location in Europe, Switzerland is probably the only country, where I'd like to live longterm. Yes things are expensive here but Swiss food is the cheapest in Europe, if you adjust for the average salary. I am trying to say: Buying power is huge. I am however unsure how long the Swiss can hold this high living standard. You can read more in my blogpost "8 reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in IT": https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-to-switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90#.978whnqsz https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t... Full disclosure: I am a part-time tech recruiter and well-connected in the tech-scene in Zurich and if you're thinking of moving here and getting a job in tech, feel free to contact me - you find my email address in my HN profile.
known 10y ago
Rest of the world can learn from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland
sambe 10y ago
Could easily be true in some areas of the economy, because professionalism seems really strong there and core technology infrastructure is often ahead of surrounding areas. However, my experience of living and working there suggests that it is very much not true in the areas I encountered: businesses cling to tradition and people prefer everything to be managed (contracts should be given to the "right" people, rules should be organised around what traditional groups want). By traditional I mean book sellers, grocers etc. You often get the feeling there is not much logic/forward thinking - only maintain what people are used to. Of course, that is a decision you are free to make, but not one that seems to tally with this article. Designated innovation area seemed pretty dead. As a consumer the low quality of many companies' websites and ability to automate was quite surprising. On the other hand, salaries are high almost all office jobs (debatable whether this makes sense for lower skill-sets, but nice if you live there) and it seems fairly easy to get a new job as long as you "fit" in the culture. I can imagine that some of the big industrial tech and pharma companies are run a bit more aggressively. Finance didn't seem to be.
- lordnacho 10y ago
  My experience of Switzerland is similar. Things are very much done according to a formula. If you're an enterprise looking for a Java developer, only a guy whose CV says "Java" will do. C# is some other planet. I think it's a Germanic thing, they expect very specific qualifications. I remember meeting a guy who had a degree as a food chemist. I asked him what jobs he was after, and he said ... food chemist. There is a startup scene in Zurich though. The tax rate is low, and people seem to have enough savings to give it a go, at least some of the young ones. It's not a huge number of people, but the Swiss are going about it in their own way, with a number "technoparks" and such. It's somewhat cosmopolitan in its outlook; people compare themselves to other startups around the world. Reasonable pay for such small firms, too. Came across more than one 6 figure job. Salaries are high, but stuff is expensive, too. Daycare for a kid, at a public nursery, is CHF30K a year (USD is in the ballpark of CHF). I've met a number of Swiss people who'd like to have more kids, but it's just a lot of money to pay. A quite ordinary family meal at a restaurant can be 100. Buying the food from a supermarket ain't cheap, either. I sometimes wonder whether GDP measurement is problematic. Quality of life doesn't feel like it's all that different between various industrialized countries, but the figures suggest they are. If stuff is expensive, that makes GDP higher. So a guy eating a $1 potato is enjoying a lower quality of life than a guy who paid $2 for his. This has implications for wastage, particularly when it has to do with large organisations such as government. Burn more money, get higher GDP. Tax rate also has implications. There's probably more black market business going on in certain countries, which also contributes to general welfare. But of course that doesn't go into official accounts, or at least it's quite hard to guess how much it is. Low tax places like Switzerland are more likely to have more stuff going through official accounts.
thinkMOAR 10y ago
Am i the only one slightly concerned by the fact it is SWISS info dot ch reporting about swiss itself? If DPRKinfo.kr would write DPRK is the best, we all laugh?
- madshiva 10y ago
  we all know that this report is a joke.
_nalply 10y ago
A Swiss speaking up here. Switzerland economy is competitive because economy is very tough here due to the high Swiss Franc. Even local businesses compete with abroad. In Basel for example there's a tramway which crosses the border to Germany. Just behind the border there's a row of malls. It's crazy. In other words, companies need to be exceedingly efficient, i. e. competitive, to survive. This has been this way as long as I remember, that means for at least thirty years. And the hostile environment has only exacerbated massively in the last five years.

208 points by baazaar 10y ago

HSO 10y ago

It better be, given the cost of living and the salaries here… :-) On a more serious note, although I have no idea how this report was produced, one might note that it was produced by the WEF (a business-friendly Swiss organisation) and that it may well be part of the ongoing political debate in Switzerland on how to implement the referendum result on restricting immigration. I'm not saying it's right, wrong, objective, or not, I honestly have no opinion. Just providing some context.

jahnu 10y ago
Is the cost of living proportional to competitiveness? Anyway, it seems like a mystery to me why tech firms like Google set up shop in small expensive Zurich instead of say cheaper, bigger Barcelona or Vienna, for example. I'd love to know what the incentives are for them.
- PetitPrince 10y ago
  Proximity to both ETH and EPFL, two relatively well regarded academic institutions ? Full disclosure: I'm certainly biased since I'm both Swiss and a recent graduate from EPFL.
  - jahnu 10y ago
    Interesting. How many people do they snap up from there though?
  - jsnell 10y ago
    Mostly irrelevant. I would be surprised if more than 10% of the Zurich-based Google engineers are Swiss or products of the Swiss education system.
    - ucaetano 10y ago
      Not at all. Proximity to those universities helps create a high-tech cluster, just as Ames, Stanford and Berkeley created the SF Bay Area's high-tech cluster.
      - jsnell 10y ago
        I'm not sure there is any kind of exceptional software engineering cluster in Zurich compared to other major European cities. But even if there were, it wouldn't matter to Google. There are no major network effects or cross-pollination with the ecosystem. Practically everyone who goes to work at that office is relocating from elsewhere. And if people leave, it's rarely to work at some other company in Zurich, but usually to move to another country. I'm not saying that ETHZ and EPFL aren't great universities. I just don't see any reason to believe they are a major factor in this particular case, directly or indirectly. (Just to give an idea of where my comments are coming from, I worked at Google Zurich for 4 years, and then another 4 doing a Zurich-based startup).
        ucaetano 10y ago
        That's a good point, maybe the cluster is more around physics and chemistry, and not computer science. Thanks for sharing!
    - rakyll 10y ago
      I had a big group of coworkers from EPFL when I was working for Google Switzerland. At some point, I actually questioned whether we have a bias for these schools. EPFL or ETH are definitely not something I'd consider as just "Swiss education system". These schools are what Stanford or Berkeley are in their region, and are highly international.
  - deleted 10y ago
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- HSO 10y ago
  Well, in Google's case, there's ETH Zurich. Just today, I saw in the newspaper (WSJ university rankings[1]) that ETH was rated top of the pops globally in computer science. (On a related note, I remember vaguely that Disney built a research lab here in Zurich just because of one professor and his team.[2]) Also, in the good old times (= before the rise of right-wing populism and the referendum) Google could attract good people from all over Europe here because in terms of living standard and salary, it could be considered a step up from almost anywhere else in Europe. Plus the central location and the infrastructure. I think in the grand scheme of things, Zurich/Switzerland has a lot to offer. I've always felt that people who argue against Switzerland only on the basis of the high salaries and cost of living are a bit like people who argue against Apple on the basis of "speeds and feeds". There's a lot more to being business-friendly than being cheap. But yeah, who knows, all this may change now, as indeed the report warns. Openness is a pretty big deal for a small, open economy like Switzerland. ______________ [1] EDIT: Just checked again, it was the Times Higher Education World University Ranking, as reported in the WSJ today. Direct link to table here: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2017/subject-ranking/computer-science#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank_label/sort_order/asc/cols/rank_only https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin... [2] EDIT: Got curious from writing this and landed on their homepage. Their first sentence starts with: "Our lab in Zürich is perfectly placed for easy access to the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zürich (ETH)…" That kind of drives the point home, doesn't it? ;-) Source: https://www.disneyresearch.com/research-labs/disney-research-zurich/ https://www.disneyresearch.com/research-labs/disney-research...
  - erichocean 10y ago
    > I remember vaguely that Disney has a research lab here in Zurich just because of one professor and his team. They do amazing work, actually. Some seriously good CG researches in Zurich.
  - __mp 10y ago
    Disney Research Zürich is super awesome. I did my master thesis there
    - 10y ago
- anonymousDan 10y ago
  Almost certainly proximity to EPFL and ETH.
- guest 10y ago
  "Anyway, it seems like a mystery to me why tech firms like Google set up shop in small expensive Zurich instead of say cheaper, bigger Barcelona or Vienna, for example." The reason is simple: tax-evation and the like, Swiss is well known for it around Europe. That it hasn't been dealt with is not strange since we live in the age of hidden plutocracy (trading outposts and the like exist in many countries for the rich to circumvent the law - this should put Brexit in a new light for some). Things are slowly changing for the better as people start to realise what is the real problem within society (or rather outside society), but seing as what happened to the "Panama" leak where the concentraded information wasn't released and basically ICIJ sat on it for a year or so (the initial estimates during that time dwindles from over $62T to less than $30T, the official cause was accounting for the same money several times).
  - tonfa 10y ago
    > The reason is simple: tax-evation and the like Source? Switzerland is famous for its private banking sector and it used to be easy to hide assets for individuals (with FACTA and tax data sharing, I don't think it's as popular now, or at least the minimum amount required is way higher since banks don't want the risk). Unlike Ireland, I'm not aware of Switzerland being commonly used to reduce corporate tax (at least in IT).
    - a3camero 10y ago
      Here's a well-known Canadian Supreme Court case about transfer pricing that highlights the role of a Swiss subsidiary in a scheme to dramatically reduce taxes on income earned from selling pharmaceuticals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_v_GlaxoSmithKline_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_v_GlaxoSmithKline_Inc
      - jomamaxx 10y ago
        Transfer pricing is not 'tax evasion' - it's 'tax avoidance'. To be clear, 'tax evasion' is illegal. Most companies do what they can to avoid paying taxes, which is rational in some ways, but they usually don't do anything illegal. It's important that we don't mix the two :)
- ucaetano 10y ago
  Taxes and payroll taxes are much lower in Switzerland than in France, for example, so an employee might cost the same to the company in both countries, but have much more net income in Switzerland. Most people don't see payroll taxes, only income taxes. Having a large percentage of foreigners and English-speakers also contributes to that, as well as the clustering effect (IBM Research has a lab in Zurich since 1956).
  - erispoe 10y ago
    The median income in Switzerland is PPP$35,083 and PPP$24,233 in France. The main difference is in healthcare, which in Switzerland is entirely private, post-payroll, and can easily amount to $500/month, whereas in France it's part public (payroll) part private. And the private part is usually paid on payroll too. Health insurance is mandatory in Switzerland, so it really is not disposable income, even if you have provider choice.
    - tibbe 10y ago
      Health insurance starts at around CHF 280/month for a 35 year old currently: https://en.comparis.ch/krankenkassen/grundversicherung/krankenversicherung-auslaender/praemien/result?inputGuid=5782b179-2ccf-40bd-bc6a-99b4778f9b97 https://en.comparis.ch/krankenkassen/grundversicherung/krank... You can reduce that if you opt for less choice (e.g. you can only use particular doctors) to around CHF 235/month.
    - ucaetano 10y ago
      The healthcare wouldn't even account for half of the difference. And you're not taking in account the payroll taxes. France has a combined payroll taxes of almost 40%, while Switzerland is <15%. So not only Swiss workers make more money, but they also cost less than French workers. Source: OECD, http://taxfoundation.org/article/comparison-tax-burden-labor-oecd http://taxfoundation.org/article/comparison-tax-burden-labor...
    - deleted 10y ago
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    - 10y ago
- victornomad 10y ago
  They give tax benefits to companies under certain conditions, similar to what happens in Dublin. It doesnt have to do anything with the ETH or EPFL. As far as I know most of the people working at G Zurich are not swiss. Regarding your first question... Its not the same to work in the field and sell tomatoes to sell ponzi tiered insurances or do business holding the money of the biggest "rich families" from europe.
- davidw 10y ago
  > Anyway, it seems like a mystery to me why tech firms like Google set up shop in small expensive Zurich instead of say cheaper, bigger Barcelona or Vienna, for example Have you seen where Google HQ is located in the US? Same story. And it's not about tax avoidance: California is not a low-tax state.
- Annatar 10y ago
  I'd love to know what the incentives are for them. ETH Zürich is among the top ten computer science schools in the world, that's what. Zürich was and is a glamorous place to live, au pair with New York, Tokyo or Milano, and after the "Brexit", Zürich is the new London now. Financial industry is withdrawing from the island and going home. Those things create incentives and an upward spiral for Zürich. And also bear in mind that Confoederatio Helvetica has some of the lowest taxes in the world; it's every American republican's wet dream in terms of that.
  - mike_hearn 10y ago
    Heh. Political bias much? I'm a Brit who lives in Zürich. I would not describe Zürich as being anywhere near as glamorous as New York nor as being the "new London". It's a lovely city to live in, but it's tiny - the entire population of Switzerland is smaller than the population of London and that reflects in the variety of things to do, things to see, services available and so on. My brother lives in London Zone 1 and I am often envious of the fantastic things that city has to offer. The Brexit vote was three months ago. So far nothing has changed, and the financial industry is certainly not moving to Switzerland - which is also not in the EU! Moreover, the Swiss voted against freedom of movement as well in 2014 and the implementation deadline is in February. The Swiss Parliament are busy demonstrating exactly how compatible the EU and democracy are (not at all) by attempting to push through local hiring preference laws when the referendum, which is constitutionally binding, stated explicitly that it was a vote on imposing quotas. The SVP is not happy and a fight is looming. Quite possibly the Swiss will chicken out given how evenly divided society is on the topic of immigration, but if attitudes have hardened since 2014 or if the SVP is able to turn this into a fight on the topic of democracy itself, Switzerland may find itself on the same side as the UK very quickly indeed. I don't actually want the Swiss to impose immigration quotas on people like me, that can only make life more complicated, but Swiss direct democracy is an admirable thing and I am 100% convinced it's a part of the reason Switzerland is so successful. Watching the EU systematically tell voters in the most successful European countries to bend the knee is not impressing me one bit.
    - Annatar 10y ago
kowdermeister 10y ago
Is it easy to get a job in Switzerland as developer + EU citizen? Is it likely to change because of immigration regulations?
- hiou 10y ago
  Yes
  - chrisper 10y ago
    Yes to which part?
- Annatar 10y ago
  No, unless you're in a medical profession or German, or both. Try applying for a job in Switzerland and you will get so much pre-canned refusal correspondence that your head will spin. The country is overcrowded and the Swiss are not thrilled about having foreigners in their country, unless they absolutely have no choice, and even then they secretly hate it. As far as they're concerned, if you're very rich you're welcome to buy property or drop your money into Switzerland, and you're very welcome to come visit as a tourist, but everyone should stay where they come from, no-matter-what.
  - misja111 10y ago
    I don't know about other area's, but as a developer it is well doable to get a job in Switzerland. What you're saying about the Swiss hating foreigners is definitely not true, I would even say the opposite. But the competition for IT jobs is a bit more tough than in some other countries in the EU. I don't know why that is, maybe it's because of the outflow of the ETH or maybe it's just that Swiss jobs are so popular with foreigners.
pjc50 10y ago
Well, remember that this is effectively Schwab scoring how well a country agrees with them on policy. There's quite a bit of depth to it, but it's not 'directly' measuring competitiveness. It's more like racing form vs. race results. I also wonder if the very high value of the Swiss Franc artificially inflates the number, but I wasn't able to figure this out from a cursory reading.
ohthehugemanate 10y ago
The cost of living should be considered along with their income tax rate. It varies from canton (province) to canton, but hovers around 10%. That's a great deal compared to most any other European country. In neighboring Germany for instance, if you earn €55k, your tax rate is about 44% (including solidarity surcharge). In Zurich it's about 11% (canton plus federal tax). The top rates are 47% and 16%, respectively. So it's not much surprise that people want to live there, despite the high cost of living.
- ekianjo 10y ago
  In Belgium about half of your salary goes to taxes.
  - truth_sentinell 10y ago
    Is it worth it?
    - jedmeyers 10y ago
      People holding government jobs and on welfare would say "yes, definitely".
      - truth_sentinell 10y ago
        So you don't benefit at all from other people's taxes?
      - kartan 10y ago
        Government jobs like the people that takes care of mental illness, policemen trained to act in a thoughtful way, teachers, etc. I'm happy to live in a country with high taxes and a good level of services for every one. To be in San Francisco, for example, was a sad experience. There was so much money and good people, but still you could see so much homeless people in the streets.
    - roel_v 10y ago
fulafel 10y ago
> I have no idea how this report was produced Also it's based on a survey responses from corporate executives. A mean name for it might be "the country popularity contest as judged by corporate fat cats". Though the survey questions do obviously direct it towards objective pastures. Hah! The example question presented in the PR material is "In your country, to what extent is intellectual property protected?" - a poster child of where corporate executives might have a diametrically opposite view from the real makers re. what's good for the country's competitiveness.

noobermin 10y ago

I always feel like it is unfair how we place different European nations in same category as the US in these rankings or whatever, and for the US, we average over all the states in the US. As homogenous the US is, different states have different economies, different laws, in some cases, some slight but important cultural differences. Is it really fair to say have the US compete on terms of "competitiveness" or in other cases, happiness, education standards, with Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, or is it more fair to have them compete with California, Texas, New York, etc.

erichocean 10y ago
> different states have different economies Eh, not really. Central bank-controlled states are a reasonable grouping measure, which is why it's the US, EU, Switzerland, the UK, etc. that people compare (even though the UK is part of the EU, and Switzerland has signed on to most economic measures the EU mandates).
- deleted 10y ago
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- humanrebar 10y ago
  It's different enough. They are notable enough for their own wiki pages. Analysts spend their careers studying individual states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas Maybe 'central bank control' is a reasonable grouping measure, but 'size of economy' is also reasonable. There is certainly more nuance than a simple ranking can model. And the 'central bank' argument is muddied by the existence of the Euro and the particular economic struggles of countries like Greece.
- noobermin 10y ago
  A central bank (and thus a state that can perform monetary policy) is important, but in many of these reports and rankings they do cut across the Eurozone. For example, this competitiveness report places Eurozone nations against one another in the ranking (see page 15 for the ranking, US is #3 behind Singapore and Switzerland).

davidw 10y ago

Not ranked so highly here: http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings They get big dings for 'starting a business' and 'protecting minority shareholders'.

guest 10y ago

Anyway, it seems like a mystery to me why tech firms like Google set up shop in small expensive Zurich instead of say cheaper, bigger Barcelona or Vienna, for example. The reason is simple: tax-evation and the like.

sschueller 10y ago
But why Zürich which has a relatively high tax rate compared to for example Zug?
- vidoc 10y ago
  Zurich has an international airport, Zug doesn't
  - href 10y ago
    The extra 30 minutes of travel hardly matter. I'd say it's the fact that Zürich has more available talent.
aaronds 10y ago
Isn't one appeal of the city being able to attract talent from ETH Zurich?
cloudjacker 10y ago
Thats a funny conclusion about Vienna because Austrian banks are great for tax evasion and pretty much reporting of anything. Some jurisdictions market slight nuances in their laws to foreigners as a perk, and other jurisdictions simply have, and if you can read you can avoid the stereotypes.
- the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
  FWIW you are an idiot if you use Austrian banks for tax evasion.
  - 10y ago

NN88 10y ago

for a nation of 8 million...

zxcvvcxz 10y ago

Interesting, can somebody remind me of these Swiss-based world changing startups that I somehow can't recall?

threesixandnine 10y ago
Startups are only a small part of the economy and majority of world changing stuff happens outside shiny startup world.

squigs25 10y ago

Keep in mind, we have a company called "swissinfo" declaring that Switzerland has the most competitive economy. Bias much?

mtmail 10y ago
You can argue against the WEF who created the study. But the newspaper itself is not declaring anything more than the study presents. "Switzerland achieved its highest score of 5.8 out of 7 in the WEF Global Competitiveness Report 2016/2017"
faebi 10y ago
It belongs to the SRG which is funded by swiss people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissinfo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissinfo

tn13 10y ago

I will not be surprised. Switz is also easily among the top 10 most economically free countries in the world. Economic freedom, competitiveness and foreign direct investments are so well correlated with economic freedom. Australia's ranking seems extremely puzzling though. The general perception is that it is very very competitive economy.

wycx 10y ago
It is not that puzzling if you live in Australia and pay attention to the economy. We have a residential real estate bubble that is worse than that of the US in 2006. Median house price to median income ratios in Sydney are worse than almost anywhere but Hong Kong. We have the highest per capita private mortgage debt of any country. This represents a massive unproductive overhead on the Australian economy, as the elevated cost of shelter flows into all other costs. Tax arrangements in Australia make leveraged real estate speculation more favourable than any other kind of investment, especially productive investment with any sort of risk attached. More than 50% of the existing mortgage debt is owed overseas via the big 4 Australian banks, so we are constantly exporting what wealth we have overseas as interest, so we can sell shitty houses built in the 1960s to each other for AUD1.2 million. Many sectors of the Australian economy are filled by a limited number of participants (e.g. banking, supermarkets, hardware, telecommunications, petrol) who are most interested in rent seeking, and not interested in competing with each other. The Australian economy has been a net importer of capital every year since the early 1970s, an almost ever year since post WW2. If you run a current account deficit so egregiously, the result is you sell off all your productive assets to stay solvent. This also means the pool of Australian capital available to invest in Australia itself is very limited. Australia has some of the highest immigration intake in the developed world, but no long term infrastructure planning to account for such population growth. Since most immigration increases the population of the large cities, the lack of investment in transport infrastructure is most apparent. We grow the economy by increasing the captias. Per capital net disposable income has been static or falling for the last 5 years. Politically, Australia has been without vision for real economic development outside rewarding entrenched rent seekers for the last 20 years. We have not seen any significant increases in productivity over that period.

arbuge 10y ago

To mean, this sounds pretty meaningless. If true, I would take it to mean that if you start a successful business in, say, the USA, you are likely to face your most dangerous competition from Switzerland. Hardly likely unless you're working on something like watches or private banking...

rdl 10y ago

If this were true I'd expect them to have less generally mediocre datacenters and network carriers. They are markedly inferior to the US and most European countries, including much less wealthy countries.

guest 10y ago

Anyone got a proper map over black fibre and the national grid of Switzerland? Could it be possible that "google" simply wants to access the data inbetween germany, france and italy (etc)? Onyx is set up on route between Zurich and those nations..? Zürich [url]https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCrich#Geografi[/url] https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCrich#Geografi[/url] Onyx [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_%28interception_system%29#Active_sites[/url] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_%28interception_system%29...

icantdrive55 10y ago

I have a few questions for Swiss expats. Could you tell me about the Swiss culture--at bit? I know it's a huge topic. Just some of the differences you see between the Swiss, and say Americans. I mainly interested in the Millenials. What do they think of Americans? Do they basically have the same hobbies? Are their any stark differences in what they value? Do they view Americans as spoiled? Do they fear us? This next question is very specific, and probally weird. I heard teens love 50's Cadilliacs. I love them too, but I heard they are more desired there, than in America? What is it about older Caddys? Are their fashion differences? Here we have kids spending hundred of dollars on tennis shoes, specifically Nikes. Has that fad hit Switzerland? Are women more, or less fashion conscience than Americans? Just any insider observation? I've been interested in Switzerland since I began Watch Repair a decade ago.

therealpeal 10y ago
Are these serious questions?
deleted 10y ago
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xrjn 10y ago
This is a pretty good overview of how Swiss people see Americans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-l59gZKLEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-l59gZKLEI Its from a comedy show which do shorts like this on all sorts of stereotypes, however this was the one of the most controversial ones. The US embassy even got involved in the end.
mike_hearn 10y ago
This is a weird list of questions. I am a migrant to Switzerland (trying not to use the word expat anymore). Swiss people are not very different to Americans in what they value, what hobbies they have, etc. They are much less outgoing, however. In America you can walk into a bar anywhere, at any time, sit down and have a spontaneous conversation with the barman or strangers sitting at the bar. This never happens in Switzerland. Do not expect it even if you speak good German. People in Switzerland keep to themselves. Because this makes it very hard to make friends there are a lot of "expat" events for immigrants to meet each other, and at these events you can go to a bar and start chatting to people of a similar age and background to yourself and make friends. This is how I made most of my friends: I have a few good Swiss friends, but overall most of my friends throughout my time in Switzerland were other foreigners. Swiss people do not "fear" Americans, why would you have that idea? They do not spend a whole lot of time thinking about Americans in particular. The vast majority of people who live in the cities (and you want to be in the cities), and especially teenagers, do not own cars at all. Not only is there no need (public transport and taxis can get you everywhere) but there isn't usually enough parking and it's very expensive. People generally only buy a car once they settle down and move out of the cities. People on the street in Switzerland tend to be well dressed and fashionable, and the women especially so. The high streets are dominated by fashion brands and shops. I can't compare this to the USA because I've only been to a few places there, but it's definitely a brand and fashion conscious place.

faebi 10y ago

Nobody mentioned yet the swiss apprenticeship system. Most young people make one and I think it is a main factor. The thing is the economy nearly always educates as much people as it needs. Within a 10 year range there should be always as much people as needed. So if one sector grows there are usually more available apprenticeships in that sector so that withing 10 years this hole should get fixed. Also I should mention that this is mostly good for the median person not for the top 1%.

wrong_variable 10y ago
what is good for the median person is also good for the 1%

Iv 10y ago

And everyday I hear people saying that direct democracy can't work

abysmallyideal 10y ago

By competitive they must surely mean expensive and selective. Hahahahaaa

s3nnyy 10y ago

I live in Zurich. Due to the high-living standard, salaries, size, central location in Europe, Switzerland is probably the only country, where I'd like to live longterm. Yes things are expensive here but Swiss food is the cheapest in Europe, if you adjust for the average salary. I am trying to say: Buying power is huge. I am however unsure how long the Swiss can hold this high living standard. You can read more in my blogpost "8 reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in IT": https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-to-switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90#.978whnqsz https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t... Full disclosure: I am a part-time tech recruiter and well-connected in the tech-scene in Zurich and if you're thinking of moving here and getting a job in tech, feel free to contact me - you find my email address in my HN profile.

known 10y ago

Rest of the world can learn from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland

sambe 10y ago

Could easily be true in some areas of the economy, because professionalism seems really strong there and core technology infrastructure is often ahead of surrounding areas. However, my experience of living and working there suggests that it is very much not true in the areas I encountered: businesses cling to tradition and people prefer everything to be managed (contracts should be given to the "right" people, rules should be organised around what traditional groups want). By traditional I mean book sellers, grocers etc. You often get the feeling there is not much logic/forward thinking - only maintain what people are used to. Of course, that is a decision you are free to make, but not one that seems to tally with this article. Designated innovation area seemed pretty dead. As a consumer the low quality of many companies' websites and ability to automate was quite surprising. On the other hand, salaries are high almost all office jobs (debatable whether this makes sense for lower skill-sets, but nice if you live there) and it seems fairly easy to get a new job as long as you "fit" in the culture. I can imagine that some of the big industrial tech and pharma companies are run a bit more aggressively. Finance didn't seem to be.

lordnacho 10y ago
My experience of Switzerland is similar. Things are very much done according to a formula. If you're an enterprise looking for a Java developer, only a guy whose CV says "Java" will do. C# is some other planet. I think it's a Germanic thing, they expect very specific qualifications. I remember meeting a guy who had a degree as a food chemist. I asked him what jobs he was after, and he said ... food chemist. There is a startup scene in Zurich though. The tax rate is low, and people seem to have enough savings to give it a go, at least some of the young ones. It's not a huge number of people, but the Swiss are going about it in their own way, with a number "technoparks" and such. It's somewhat cosmopolitan in its outlook; people compare themselves to other startups around the world. Reasonable pay for such small firms, too. Came across more than one 6 figure job. Salaries are high, but stuff is expensive, too. Daycare for a kid, at a public nursery, is CHF30K a year (USD is in the ballpark of CHF). I've met a number of Swiss people who'd like to have more kids, but it's just a lot of money to pay. A quite ordinary family meal at a restaurant can be 100. Buying the food from a supermarket ain't cheap, either. I sometimes wonder whether GDP measurement is problematic. Quality of life doesn't feel like it's all that different between various industrialized countries, but the figures suggest they are. If stuff is expensive, that makes GDP higher. So a guy eating a $1 potato is enjoying a lower quality of life than a guy who paid $2 for his. This has implications for wastage, particularly when it has to do with large organisations such as government. Burn more money, get higher GDP. Tax rate also has implications. There's probably more black market business going on in certain countries, which also contributes to general welfare. But of course that doesn't go into official accounts, or at least it's quite hard to guess how much it is. Low tax places like Switzerland are more likely to have more stuff going through official accounts.

thinkMOAR 10y ago

Am i the only one slightly concerned by the fact it is SWISS info dot ch reporting about swiss itself? If DPRKinfo.kr would write DPRK is the best, we all laugh?

madshiva 10y ago
we all know that this report is a joke.

_nalply 10y ago

A Swiss speaking up here. Switzerland economy is competitive because economy is very tough here due to the high Swiss Franc. Even local businesses compete with abroad. In Basel for example there's a tramway which crosses the border to Germany. Just behind the border there's a row of malls. It's crazy. In other words, companies need to be exceedingly efficient, i. e. competitive, to survive. This has been this way as long as I remember, that means for at least thirty years. And the hostile environment has only exacerbated massively in the last five years.