15 ms·

Amazon’s Ambition to Compete Directly with UPS and FedEx

296 points by cosmoharrigan 10y ago

akhatri_aus 10y ago
I think this is silly. Simply having that last mile communication with USPS/Fedex solves the issue entirely. E.g 'just left your parcel on the side of the porch, behind the tree, no one was home'. Or requesting them to do that if you're not home. With the other issues of wrong deliveries and the like Amazon is just as likely to get it wrong.
tedunangst 10y ago
They're pretty terrible at it. Whenever I get something shipped by amazon courier, I know it's down to about 50% chance of delivery. "Package was handed to a resident." Yeah, so where is it? "Ask a neighbor." Yeah, right, in a building with 100 residents I'm going to go door to door asking about my package. The "good" days are when they leave it on the sidewalk outside (in a city!) and I notice it's there before anybody else does.
- SEJeff 10y ago
  My experience in a single family home is the polar opposite. I always get a txt or polite call (always originating from Seattle, WA) asking if I want them to put the package somewhere in specific or leave it at the door. I've went and spoken with a few of them. They're far and above better than Fedex / UPS and never throw the packages over my gate into my flowerbeds.
  - dannyr 10y ago
    Same here. Amazon has been great. They also deliver on Sundays and they call me since my apartment building's package room is closed on Sundays.
  - tigarcia 10y ago
    I agree completely. I usually have the most problems with packages delivered through the US Postal Service and I haven't had any problems to speak of with Amazon delivery.
    - tracker1 10y ago
      When I lived outside a major metro area for a couple years (Prescott Valley, AZ for reference), the USPS was horrible there, packages sitting on the mailbox in the rain, delivered literally blocks/streets off of both the address by number and street name... There were a dozen or so times a year we'd get someone else's packages. Actually getting packages from USPS was under 50%. I started having stuff delivered to work, as it was more reliable. And I panicked when I read about USPS doing last mile delivery for other carriers. I haven't had that near as much in town, but USPS is my absolute last choice in the space.
      - lutorm 10y ago
        Here in Hawaii, USPS has been at least as good as any of the other companies, while charging a fraction of the cost. We're talking 1/4 the cost or less, and delivery from most places on the mainland in usually 3 days, maybe 4.
        tracker1 10y ago
        It will vary greatly by area... I haven't had any issues in the Phoenix area... There are still a lot of neighborhoods in Phoenix that still have their mailboxes at the house, not the curb. Though I have friends farther out in newer neighborhoods that have less than great experiences.
    - matwood 10y ago
      This completely. If I order from Amazon and it shows them handing it to USPS, I email/call right away because odds are I will not get the package. I complained to the postmaster multiple times. Although, as a typical gov. employee, he just laughed and said we do what we want, it is your neighborhoods problem. Eventually the whole neighborhood got together and made some changes happen. It is still not perfect, but better.
  - tedunangst 10y ago
    Heh, everyone's experience is different. Until recently Amazon used UPS for everything and I never had a problem. They deliver the packages to the business next door. Just like it says on the sign by the front door.
    - pbreit 10y ago
      And since Amazon is incredibly customer-focused, I have an easier time believing the positive anecdotes.
      - untog 10y ago
        Why do you assume people are lying, just because other people have different experiences than them? It is possible for both to be true. You sound like a marketers dream.
      - majormajor 10y ago
        It's still a pretty hard problem to solve, though. My experience is that it's taken Amazon about 3 years to figure out how to do their own deliveries in LA. The first ones were terrible. They seemed to have no good fallback if the building's gate was locked and nobody was available to buzz them in, and stuff just got lost. They were customer focused, yes, but that just meant they shipped me free replacement stuff with free overnight non-Amazon shipping. Not the best experience overall, though, compared to getting it on the original date. Fast forward to 2016 and they're pretty good here. Though USPS has been best for my building (and elsewhere people here are talking about USPS being the worst - again, it's a hard problem to solve for every area for everyone).
      - ascagnel_ 10y ago
        I've had nothing but problems with them: * Package marked as delivered on Saturday. Package actually delivered on Sunday. * Package not delivered because there was no safe place to leave it (there's a sign next to the front door with instructions do leave it in the complex's leasing office across the street). * Package delivered to my door, despite my door being behind multiple card-access doors. * Package left at the door to the leasing office, even though the leasing office was open and the lights were on. These have all happened in the past three months. I'm borderline ready to cancel Prime.
  - monksy 10y ago
    I didn't order a package from Amazon, but it was shipped from the company to me via amazon. (I refuse to buy from Aamzon) The amazon delievery person ended up putting on the slip "in the flower bed." I've had other horror stories about delivery people being clueless about leaving it, and/or where to leave it. I've had a lot less issues with UPS than I've had with the Amazon delievery service.
    - Grishnakh 10y ago
      >I didn't order a package from Amazon, but it was shipped from the company to me via amazon. Are you sure about that? It sounds like you bought from an arbitrager: someone who's just a middleman, posts something for sale which they don't even have, but at a higher price than some retailer that does. Then, when you buy it, they go buy the thing (on Amazon in this case), use your address as the delivery address, and then pocket the difference. It's extremely common on Ebay and Amazon both, and many other places.
      - monksy 10y ago
        It was the company who made the item.
  - jasonmp85 10y ago
    So here's the thing. I don't want the carrier to call to ask how to deliver a package. I have never had a FedEX or UPS carrier do that, they just put it where all packages for my building are supposed to go. I've had Amazon Logistics carriers: Be unable to find my door (it's a non-gated, outward facing door in a row-style townhome with street access). Leave things at an _entirely different_ residential complex, whose address matched neither my street name nor number. They've done this twice, and not even at the same wrong complex (the hint is it said "left at reception", and we don't have a reception area). Try to pressure me into letting them just leave something on the sidewalk outside a gated apartment ("would that be safe?"). I'm a Prime addict and I feel like my dealer just started cutting the supply. At least let Prime members opt-out of Amazon Logistics (hell, I'd pay extra in my annual fee to do so).
    - wlesieutre 10y ago
      This isn't unique to Amazon's couriers. I've had UPS leave a package "at loading dock" in a similar row-style townhome with street access. I still have no idea where that one ended up. Not sure that I've ever had a package delivered by Amazon, but if I did there weren't any problems. That UPS incident is my only personal shipping issue in years.
    - enraged_camel 10y ago
      >>So here's the thing. I don't want the carrier to call to ask how to deliver a package. I have never had a FedEX or UPS carrier do that, they just put it where all packages for my building are supposed to go. I wish I could say the same. I get calls from UPS delivery guys/gals about 30% of the time because I live in a duplex and my unit faces the alley. So they come in through the main street, can't find "Unit B" and end up calling me. I have to explain to them that they have to enter through the gate on the side. This one time they left the package in front of the mailboxes, out in the open. When I got home, the entire box was soaking wet from the rain. Gross.
      - enraged_camel 10y ago
        I've gotten a lot of downvotes for this and I'm not sure why. Am I saying something controversial?
- deleted 10y ago
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- some-guy 10y ago
  I had this problem as well. I used to live in an apartment complex with a key entry that UPS, USPS, and FedEx had access to, but not Amazon. I never knew when they were going to arrive and they kept saying that they tried but couldn't deliver the package (we didn't have a code, only key entry). Since I couldn't guarantee what carrier would be used, I eventually had to use Amazon Locker only. I live in a house now and no longer have this problem.
- buro9 10y ago
  I've basically stopped using them because of this. I would shop from Amazon again if I could choose to have something delivered by Royal Mail as then I know it would get to my door. Amazon did the whole "left with neighbour" thing... but my neighbours are drug dealers and their clients come and go all the time... the packages never turned up and I'm hardly going to go confront the neighbours about it. I shopped there for convenience, to reduce hassle, and their delivery service increased hassle.
  - yomly 10y ago
    This has been getting progressively worse for me. I suspect it is a known problem at Amazon but I'm confident this is actually an "innovation" of the delivery men. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they are gaming the system by dumping a street or apartment's deliveries all with one resident. They're all so stretched for time that they have to cut corners to meet their targets... For Amazon they need to find a means of setting humane targets and then finding a way to accurately measure performance of staff...
    - bitJericho 10y ago
      That's not the Amazon way.
    - Florin_Andrei 10y ago
      You might be on to something here. I live in a safe neighborhood, the door and the number are easy to see from the street, so the delivery person should waste no time locating the place. I never had issues with Amazon. Seems like they're pushing the system a bit too far.
    - DashRattlesnake 10y ago
      > They're all so stretched for time that they have to cut corners to meet their targets... > For Amazon they need to find a means of setting humane targets and then finding a way to accurately measure performance of staff... Yeah, my suspicion is that this is the root cause of my troubles with them. I live in an apartment building, but I have a street-accessible front door, so I have a sign clearly saying to leave packages with the apartment manager in the office. Half the time they just dump the packages at my door anyway, the other half of the time they just dump them at the office's street-accessible door, because they got there when it was closed. I don't know what's so hard about noting a delivery exception and attempting again the next day. All the other carriers seem to be able to handle that. A few of the drivers have called me for instructions, but it's kind of pointless: the next day's driver is just going ignore all the instructions and dump the package anyway. It wouldn't be so bad if I could have all Amazon Delivery packages redirected to one of their nearby drop boxes, like I do with UPS. The problem is if I set things up to use an Amazon drop box, ALL my stuff will go there, not just the Amazon delivery orders, and they don't support 2-day shipping. I still want the USPS orders to go to my mailbox, since that's the most convenient option. They really need to allow users to enter shipping preferences, since not all carriers are the same for everyone. For me USPS and UPS are the best, Fedex and Amazon Logistics are the worst.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Similar experience here, although not as frequent or egregious, it's still noticeably inferior to other means of shipping.
- mmanfrin 10y ago
  Late one night (like 9pm) I was just arriving home in my car and hit my garage gate when I saw someone with a flashlight at my front walking gate (like 15ft away). I drove in to my driveway while looking at the person, got out of my car and walked back around to see what they were doing. When I got back to the sidewalk they saw me, threw something over my fence, and then ran away. It was my package, they were the Amazon courier and couldn't figure out how to open my front gate. It was bizarre.
- samfisher83 10y ago
  I have too many issues with amazon delivery.
- mintplant 10y ago
  Yep. I used to associate Amazon with reliability, but now I'm lucky if a package is delivered at all, let alone to a neighbor or by the "guaranteed" delivery date. I'm seriously considering dropping my Prime membership because it doesn't seem to be paying for anything. Last week I paid extra to have two packages delivered by Monday. On Monday the expected delivery date had changed to Tuesday; on Tuesday, it was Wednesday; on Wednesday, Thursday; and on Thursday, my packages finally arrived. As far as I can tell Amazon has kept the fees I paid despite failing to hold up their end of the bargain.
  - bitJericho 10y ago
    Yeah you have to call them to recover your shipping. Don't let them give you a gift card either.
- cmsimike 10y ago
  My first thoughts exactly. I think I am below a 50% success rate with them. There was about a week and a half where _none_ of our Amazon orders showed up.
- 8ytecoder 10y ago
  My experience is different and was vastly better than Fedex (UPS/USPS I generally don't have issues with). They have consistently come after business hours so I'd be at home fto receive the package. They even called me once to schedule a time to deliver the package.
  - chucksmash 10y ago
    FedEx is the only courier I have trouble with. I've never been home when they tried to deliver and they ignore the signed "I accept liability for this getting lost, just leave it leaned against my door" slip. Going to the distribution center to pick up the package typically entails a 30-45 minute wait. They require both an ID and proof of residence (e.g. electric bill) if the address on your ID doesn't match the delivery address - and of course nobody in line knows about this so you end up spending that 30-45 minutes with a crowd of angry people who can't even pick up their packages.
- deleted 10y ago
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- thenipper 10y ago
  As I was about the write a reply to this I had one of them come up to the porch at my work. They looked at me through the open door. They looked at the mailbox. Then just put down the package and walked away. It was surreal.
- devy 10y ago
  That sounds exactly like my experience with UPS. We are in fact at the mercy of the carrier assigned drivers to ensure our packages' safe delivery. Some neighborhood are fortunate to have great responsible delivery worker/driver who actually cares about delivering packages safe and sound; but to many of them though, it's just a job.
- joshvm 10y ago
  I use the deliver-to-shop method unless the item is huge. They deliver to a newsagent (grocery store) on the adjacent road and it's always before 7AM. Very nice, though I feel obliged to buy some milk to make up for using the shop as a dropship point.
- stordoff 10y ago
  I've had Amazon couriers lie on the tracking system on more than one occasion. Last week it was "Delivered to resident <name>" at a time I knew everyone was out of the house (I later found the item behind my bin). I get a month extra Prime each time, but I likely won't be renewing when it runs out.
  - Grishnakh 10y ago
    I really have to wonder here: why didn't they just put in their tracking system, "hid item behind bin"? I don't really care if they hide my delivery, as long as I can find it. It's better hidden than stuck out in the open where someone can easily steal it.
- MicroBerto 10y ago
  For the past 10 years, I've used a UPS Store Box (or similar) for as many of my deliveries as possible. They accept any kind of package, and email you when it arrives. The security and peace of mind is well worth the cost. There are very few packages I need the minute they're delivered.
  - technofiend 10y ago
    P.O. Box - same thing. Very few shippers don't ship to a P.O. Box and 99% of those will do it after a polite request.
    - massysett 10y ago
      USPS now allows you to use a street address for your PO Box so it can receive non-US Mail.
      - stevenwiles 10y ago
        You're rich and you expect people to feel sorry for you?
- elcct 10y ago
  In my case when it is raining for example, there is little chance for them to bother with delivery.
- toephu2 10y ago
  Your anecdotal evidence is not representative of all Amazon customers... or even most. Edit: saw your response, fair enough.
  - jrcii 10y ago
    70% of my "one day" prime deliveries result in false delivery attempts -- due to either A1 International, Lasership, or "AMZN" couriers. Reporting these problems to customer service I've been told that they're aware of the problem, so it is definitely happening at some kind of scale.
- drzaiusapelord 10y ago
  The problem I see, when its not just a general "fuck you" attitude (common with USPS workers for example) is that a lot of people willing to take these delivery jobs are often from suburban and rural area businesses that take these contracts and hire local talent. These people are not given the appropriate level of training to handle dense urban environments. I live deep in the heart of Chicago and if you leave a package on my doorstep it will either get stolen or opened up to see if anything of value is inside and discarded in the bushes. I had to put a sign on my mailbox asking delivery people to toss the package over the fence and into my yard if I'm not home. This is basic common sense in a big city. Sadly, its sometimes ignored. I now just deal with work delivery which means a good chance of a package getting lost in 30 floor skyscraper I work in. Its incredible how shitty package delivery is in general.
- jmcgough 10y ago
  I started renting a PO box for deliveries that I can swing by after work. It sucks to have to carry heavy stuff the last mile, but the alternative is just not getting deliveries ever, and I buy most things through amazon these days.
  - pimeys 10y ago
    I just order everything that is not too heavy to carry to our office. I never miss any deliveries this way and most of the time the items are small enough to carry in my bike bag.
  - tedunangst 10y ago
    I totally understand why you'd do that, having considered it myself, but this is a really backwards solution. The article is all about how the last mile delivery is difficult. So the solution is to suck at it until the customer gives up and solves it for you?
- anbotero 10y ago
  I don’t know what to think. I live in Miami, and packages ALWAYS have been delivered here, on time. I’ve been buying from them for five years, two and a half of those as a Prime customer, so it’s clear the are not real differences besides delivery times. Maybe it’s the state you live in? They have never given anything to my neighbours when no one was at home during delivery, they always tried next day, call or leave a form to schedule next delivery time so someone DOES receive the package.
  - j2bax 10y ago
    Can you clarify if this was just typical UPS/Fedex deliveries through Amazon or Amazon Courier service?
- Zombieball 10y ago
  The problem with this anecdote, and many of the comments I see about "Amazon delivery" is it only manages to address Amazon as a last-mile carrier. If you look at the "Ground Control" infographic in the article, a significant portion of logistics is in the linehaul network: tractors + 53' trailers full of thousands of packages. At the end of the day you don't really know if Amazon, Fedex, or USPS handled these shipments, all you see is the guy who shows up to your door. I imagine there is the potential for huge savings to have Amazon vertically integrate this. Sure, personalized delivery to your doorstep is a tough problem to solve. But delivery of thousands of packages between point A and B? Not as tough.
cosmoharrigan 10y ago
In addition to the program to run their own parcel shipping network, referred to as "Consume the City", it also mentions an interesting experiment called "I Have Space", which allows Amazon to utilize excess capacity in warehouses owned by third parties. Note that Amazon has already launched "Seller Fulfilled Prime" for third party sellers which meet certain metrics.
dingaling 10y ago
An interesting condition of the Amazon deal with Atlas, for 767 freighters: but [Amazon] may cancel the CMI deal with just 180 days’ notice merely for the sake of “convenience”, which can be implemented from January 1, 2018. CMI is (air)crew, maintenance and insurance and they then combine that with a dry-lease of the airframes from an Atlas subsidiary. http://theloadstar.co.uk/atlas-air-shareholders-approve-amazon-deal-despite-fears-pilots-ground-crew/ http://theloadstar.co.uk/atlas-air-shareholders-approve-amaz... So it looks as if 2017 will be the proving-year for Amazon to determine whether they want to take the plunge into self-managed logistics, and they have an escape clause if not.
- cosmoharrigan 10y ago
  That is interesting. But the dry lease would survive cancellation of the CMI agreement, right?
xutopia 10y ago
Is anyone concerned with Amazon taking over too many things? It's already killing smaller shops... I understand why but it's now trying to take over content and all forms of shipping? I'm worried we'll have a single mega store one day from which we buy all our things.
- gigatexal 10y ago
  No, I don't have any qualms with this. I just want quality stuff at the cheapest prices. Smaller shops will serve niches that Amazon doesn't.
  - clock_tower 10y ago
    "Quality stuff at the cheapest prices" is how we got into this corporate-oligarchy mess in the first place...
    - ci5er 10y ago
      You expect consumers to pick crappier stuff, at higher prices and more inconvenience? Or that the companies who provide better/faster/cheaper not to grow large on providing what the people want at the prices they want to pay?
  - monksy 10y ago
    > I just want quality stuff at the cheapest prices. Which Amazon has been spammed by chinese dropshippers. > cheapest prices Not always. Depends what you're looking for.
    - tracker1 10y ago
      Yeah, and it's really annoying when you're looking for certain items that have many generics.
    - bitJericho 10y ago
      Item for item, I find eBay buy it now prices at least 10 percent cheaper.
koolba 10y ago
More competition is a win for all of us (consumers). Plus anything is better than the rag tag set of local shippers they use for same/next day orders (or 2-day orders that were late getting out). I'm not going to name and shame, but I've had bad experiences with all of the non-majors (i.e. not UPS, FedEX, USPS) they use from coast to coast.
- atestu 10y ago
  Amazon will go from using many competing companies to using their own shipping service… maybe you have a different way of looking at it, but that's less competition in my book.
  - arrosenberg 10y ago
    The locals will still exist (but many of them aren't good, as parent said. As both a shipper and a recipient, I've had bad experiences with OnTrac for example), but this will create another national/international carrier, which I think is a plus for competition.
  - ci5er 10y ago
    Amazon can provide a competing shipping service. If they give me a choice, I'll pick the one that best fits my needs. It might be theirs; it might not be. If they don't offer that choice, and force me to use theirs, and theirs fails to deliver according to my criteria too often, I'll shop elsewhere. How did that limit competition?
curiousDog 10y ago
I was thinking they'd be competing with Uber, Lyft as well in the not too distant future. They're building out a sizable network through Amazon local and fresh (maybe I have a distorted view of this because I live in Seattle though)
- tracker1 10y ago
  I'm half surprised they didn't by Lyft for that purpose earlier on.
faragon 10y ago
Logical move, in my opinion: it is easier to scale delivery at Amazon scale by doing it by themselves in cities/areas with enough critical mass.
rambos 10y ago
I thought this was already a known thing?
cosmoharrigan 10y ago
"Amazon’s goal, these people say, is to one day haul and deliver packages for itself as well as other retailers and consumers" They could choose to offer parcel shipping services to any retailer as part of the Amazon Marketplace Web Services API, just as they currently offer the Multi-Channel Fulfillment API[1], which allows a retailer to fulfill orders from any sales channel using the Fulfillment by Amazon network. [1] http://docs.developer.amazonservices.com/en_US/fba_outbound/index.html http://docs.developer.amazonservices.com/en_US/fba_outbound/...
elchief 10y ago
I don't see how Amazon can do it cheaper (cost-wise)/better than UPS or Fedex, who have been optimizing for 50 years. If they can't do it better/cheaper then the reason to do it is because UPS or Fedex are rent-seeking, and doing it themselves would bring Amazon's cost close to the actual cost of delivering
- MBCook 10y ago
  UPS/Fedex have to pick up and go anywhere. Amazon only has to move things between their warehouses and consumers. 99% of pickups are at their warehouses. Hell if they use UPS/FedEx for returns then it's 100%.
  - unit91 10y ago
    Exactly. And Amazon doesn't even have to reach all of its customers. They can target high density areas, and use traditional shippers to deliver the rest.
  - tracker1 10y ago
    There's also the profit margins that UPS and FedEx have, which is probably not huge, but Amazon can edge those out as well.
- mmanfrin 10y ago
  Because it's not just shipping. Shipping is the avenue for entry, but the last-mile delivery market is suitable for lots of things, like: Amazon Fresh (groceries, which UPS/Fedex cannot do) 1 hour delivery (which UPS/Fedex cannot do without keeping their fleet at Amazon's warehouses) Restaurant delivery etc The point is to capture the means of delivery so they can become the carrier for parcels/food/whatever. Uber is trying to do this too. As is Postmates. UPS/Fedex have the issue that they are very good for bulk travel, but weak at last mile (it works for them now because of the volume they do, but the best they can reasonably do is next-day).
  - omarchowdhury 10y ago
    Seems like a merger between Amazon and either UPS or Fedex would be a wise decision, imagine that. And they don't necessarily have to pull antitrust measures afterwards, they can put their energy into effiencies instead of exploitation. And I don't think the merger would even blocked by government for antitrust concerns because they still have a lot of competition.
daxfohl 10y ago
I wonder if UPS and FedEx will ever want to run their business on top of Amazon's platform even though it's a direct competitor now, like Netflix does.
- bdcravens 10y ago
  As far as I know, Amazon has thus far done a good job of segregating AWS and Amazon retail operations.
badgers 10y ago
Amazon has been doing this for years now, and they'll never completely abandon using the USPS, UPS or FedEx for the foreseeable future. Their line haul network has always been solid, and they've been using other carriers to do the most expensive portion of the package life cycle, the last mile delivery. The article touched on the fact that they've been doing trials of deliveries in large cities that have the package density to make it profitable. Amazon certainly has volume to fill delivery trucks, and I expect them to continue this trend by identifying profitable delivery routes. However I don't see them competing with a nationwide network on the scale of UPS or FedEx anywhere in the near future. Amazon will continue to be a customer alongside a competitor of them.
losteverything 10y ago
$1.50 is what USPS charges (but I can't find the redacted document) and that IMO is quite a deal. They will use less humans. Why would FedEx ups change when it makes a pile now. I recall hearing how letters would never be sorted automatically. It will take an outsider like Zon to get to the future.
- cosmoharrigan 10y ago
  What document are you referring to?
  - losteverything 10y ago
    As I recall a labor agreement \ negotiation support document from the NALC or APWU. But I'm old and probably lost it.
    - cosmoharrigan 10y ago
      If you happen to find it again, it would be interesting to look over it.
      - losteverything 10y ago
        K. It supported Usps side to (current situation) make temp positions at $16.85 no OT termed after 360 days because Zon contract pays "x" and if full union labor would pay up to $43
      - losteverything 10y ago
        K. It supported Usps side to (current situation) make temp positions at $16.85 no OT termed after 360 days because Zon contract pays "x" and if full union labor would pay up to $43
sobinator 10y ago
While taking on this challenge will be something like building their own private Appalachian Trail, ambitious in its own right, I'll be interested in something more subtle that this article touched on, "upending the traditional relationship between seller and sender."--will we begin to see widespread shipping arbitrage[1]? http://www.sidehustlenation.com/amazon-fba-clearance-arbitrage-shopping/ http://www.sidehustlenation.com/amazon-fba-clearance-arbitra...
sfRattan 10y ago
Am I the only one bothered by the use of the term "sortation?" I had a roommate in college from London who pointed out that Americans tend to add "-ation" onto words where it isn't necessary or doesn't further elaborate the meaning (e.g. transportation where transport is sufficient). I haven't been able to un-notice our rather pointless addition of letters to nouns. What is wrong with Sort Center or Sorting Center? I did, before writing this post, find "sortation" in some unabridged dictionaries referring to a mechanized or automated sorting process, but the word still just sounds off to me...
- DavidAdams 10y ago
  It bugged me too. I don't recall ever having heard that particular word innovation before, so I think it's just a made up variant.
- lightbyte 10y ago
  "Sort" and "Sortation" are different words, they are not interchangeable. The "-ation" suffix not just a random suffix added on, it has a specific meaning - "The action or process of doing something". So "sortation" means the process of sorting.
  - asdfqwerutoe 10y ago
    Some would say "the process of sorting" is sorting.
    - hammock 10y ago
      And "the process of transporting" is transportation (or transport). The reason "sort" can't easily replace "sortation" is because it's only one syllable. The two meanings of "transport" are distinguished by pronunciation: TRANSport vs. transPORT
  - sfRattan 10y ago
    The definition of "sort" that I'm finding in the context we're talking about is: the act of separating things and putting them in a particular order : the act of sorting things[1]. The same source gives a further definition as "an instance of sorting <a numeric sort of a data file>." Perhaps -ation adds some meaning, but I don't see how it wouldn't already be present in the context of any hypothetical sentence. The action or process of the act of sorting seems redundant. My own bias is certainly towards brevity in most cases where context gives a clear meaning. I should clarify that -ation seems unnecessary where the noun it extends: (a) already describes a process. (b) is in common use describing a process. The suffix seems more useful where it explicitly turns a verb into a noun where there was no suitable noun in common use, or where any existing nouns derived from the same root do not refer to a process. This is the ignored distinction my roommate's offhand comment likely implied. The problem appears to be that American English simply no longer sticks to the formal meaning added by the suffix. Reserve/reservation and preserve/preservation are used interchangeably to refer to large plots of land left to nature. But making a reservation at a hotel is the process of reserving a room. I guess this ambiguity is what we get for speaking a language without central authority. I'll take it over ivory tower language academies decrying use of "le weekend..." ;) [1]: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sort http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sort
wAllDueRespect 10y ago
my guess is that UPS will eat their lunch. this is UPS's core business. they prob weren't doing what Amazon needed them to do partially because they have other customers and partially because Amazon likely wanted too much from them based on what Amazon was willing to pay. Amazon will likely place onerous requirements on sellers to squeeze pennies out of the shipping process. and then, eventually, when more of commerce has converted to the mail-delivered model, and UPS is making a profit, and Amazon realizes that they're throwing good resources after bad in an experiment gone wrong, they'll get back to focusing on selling stuff and out of the business of delivering stuff.
- tracker1 10y ago
  Even if Amazon only does last mile delivery to locations with warehouse facilities (which will probably be everywhere with a large airport), and only does the deliveries from said warehouses to customers in the local region, it's still probably worth it for them to take over that aspect. I don't know that last mile out to smaller areas will ever be worth it for Amazon.
- shambala 10y ago
  Just because it's UPS core business doesn't mean UPS is doing it right. Merchandising was Sears' core business. Heck, the airlines' core business is air transportation, and plenty of them have gone out of business/merged in the last few years. Also don't forget that UPS is a union ship, with very expensive union contracts. The UPS is the largest individual employer in the Teamsters Union. https://teamster.org/upsupsf-contract-updates/ups-agreements-2013-2018 https://teamster.org/upsupsf-contract-updates/ups-agreements...
saosebastiao 10y ago
Knowing nothing about this specific project, but knowing quite a bit about the cultures of their Transportation, Operations, and Supply Chain orgs, I would: 1) Say this is not news but PR. Congrats to Carney. 2) Expect actual technology to lag behind the vision communicated by 3+ years while the dev teams try to find remotely suitable heuristics for the NP-SweetMotherOfGod problems that the executives think are just a matter of throwing enough servers at. Several entire orgs will be eliminated or repurposed while this happens. 3) Expect costs to be an order of magnitude higher than the competition for a good 3-5 years due to really stupid and trivially fixable mistakes/inanities that are obvious to anybody on the ground floor. These inanities will eventually be addressed by some level 4 or level 5 analyst that will eventually (but not today) get fired for pointing out the wrong person's mistakes...or worse, endlessly moved around orgs with no advancement potential. 4) Expect it to be rolled out to countless cities mindlessly by some executive that thinks they can predict results for Kansas City based on actuals from New York City. These program rollouts will eventually extremely costly and will be neutered to mean nothing, delicately handling the PR hits as they come in, while the program will still exist on the record. The programs will never be shut down. 5) Expect it will eventually (5-10 years out) become cost-neutral, but never profitable. Right as this happens, some other crazy idea will be announced, pushing everybody back in the red. Rinse and repeat.
sanj 10y ago
Amazon doesn't need to compete directly with UPS and Fedex to win. Instead, I'd argue that they need to take over deliveries to easy deliveries (eg, cities) and continue to outsource the harder deliveries. I'd suggest that this would remove the profit-producing deliveries for UPS/FedEx and leave them with those that they do at a loss. It also explains the code name: "Consume the City"
- martincmartin 10y ago
  The expected response from UPS and Fedex is "if you don't use us for the cities, we'll refuse to take your harder deliveries. You need to be all or nothing." Or the equivalent: "we see the writing on the wall, so we're going to charge you an arm and a leg for each harder delivery, to make the most money before you handle those deliveries on your own too."
  - swalsh 10y ago
    all or nothing, or.... you know, just raise the price.
    - bduerst 10y ago
      Pretty much. This move decreases Amazon's buying power with them so they can just raise rates accordingly.
  - sangnoir 10y ago
    Considering that FedEx & UPS handover their "hard deliveries" to the USPS, I don't think Amazon is too worried. The USPS already handles Sunday deliveries for Amazon, they will probably expand that program if FedEx or UPS start getting too greedy.
  - snowwrestler 10y ago
    I wonder if they can make that response. I know Fedex has argued at least once in court that they are a common carrier, and to my understanding, common carriers have some limits on how they can discriminate price or service based on who the customer is.
deleted 10y ago
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paulcole 10y ago
If you're having problems with the Amazon Couriers just chat with Amazon support online. Explain the problems (give examples) and ask them to always ship using a different service. There's definitely an account setting for this that's not visible to the end user, because I went from 100% courier deliveries (with many issues) to 0% courier deliveries.
- el_benhameen 10y ago
  This doesn't seem to be very sticky, though. I've had nothing but trouble with OnTrac, so I requested that they not be used to ship items to me. For about three months they used different couriers, but just this week I got a delivery from OnTrac again.
  - paulcole 10y ago
    Without proof, it makes sense from their perspective. Theoretically, they should be working to improve their delivery service. By having your preference expire, it should at least let you try what they believe the "best" option to be after a few months. If it still sucks you can complain again. Seems annoying as a customer, but I can get why they'd do it.
- DashRattlesnake 10y ago
  Can you give me more information on what you did to get that setting changed? I emailed them yesterday asking them to stop sending me packages with Amazon Logistics, and the rep denied that such a setting even existed and just sent my feedback to their shipping department: > I'm really sorry about the problems you've had with the last few shipments. Unfortunately, there is no way to request a specific shipper for your Amazon orders.
  - paulcole 10y ago
    I told them that the last 3 deliveries got screwed up because they wouldn't leave items at my door. Said I was ready to cancel Prime because of it.
Declanomous 10y ago
Why would Amazon care if they damaged their reputation with Fedex and UPS? They can just do what UPS and Fedex do when it is too expensive to deliver a package somewhere -- turn it over to the USPS. Amazon is already using USPS to deliver packages on Sundays, which is win-win-win. Amazon wins, USPS wins, and the consumers win. Amazon's home delivery seems to work well where it's been rolled out, and I don't see competitive barriers to rolling it out elsewhere. I think the article fails to cover a lot of areas where Amazon will have a competitive advantage over UPS and Fedex. First of all, Amazon will be vertically integrated. They can control the packaging. They can control which warehouses are used to store items. This could lead to better packing efficiency in delivery vehicles, and could make automated loading of vehicles easier. If you have a particular route that is usually 110% full or 40% full, you could either move more items to that warehouse or take some away. Plus, Amazon can incentivize cheaper shipping options dynamically. Will the marginal cost of this order be incredibly high because you'll need a second truck for a particular route? Discount one day shipping, or offer two day shipping to their work instead. On top of all that, Amazon doesn't have unionized employees. That's a huge advantage when you are trying to reduce costs. Not only are their employees wages probably less, but they also don't have contracts that reduce planning ability, like fixed routes, etc. (The above is my comment on this post yesterday, though the post failed to get traction. I think it's probably still relevant 24 hours later)
- freehunter 10y ago
  When I was in an apartment I hated it when USPS got my package. When I wasn't home, they'd take it back to the post office which meant I had to then drive to the post office, at a time when they were open (which conflicted with my working hours). UPS or FedEx would leave it at the office. Now that I'm in a house, I much prefer USPS if only because my post man comes by at 9am and UPS/FedEx don't come by until 2-3pm.
  - ghostly_s 10y ago
    I've had the exact opposite experience in every apartment I've lived in (like....10 now?). And USPS typically has a postal key to the entryway so they can leave packages inside. The best case scenario with FedEx has always been that they may ring a bunch of buzzers randomly before leaving the package on the doorstep and driving off.
yakster 10y ago
I have had some terrible luck with Amazon shipment lately. Keep in mind that it goes both for their in-house shipments as well as UPS and Fedex. On one item, it got to the absurd point of them telling me that they didn't know where the item was. They had to overnight me another one. Of course, the original one showed up 5 days later. Before they can compete on something new, they need to iron out their current systems.
oliwarner 10y ago
Amazon Logistics is awful locally in the UK. I mean it. Terrible. I'm currently waiting for a package "guaranteed" before midday. I've had a couple of emails since then, the last pushing it back to "before 9pm". It's 9.25 now. They've delivered stuff to the wrong place. They've said they knocked and nobody answered (I work from home, wife is on maternity). And their vans are rentals. All in all it feels unprofessional. It makes me questions not only the value of Prime but Amazon as a whole. I've started shopping around a lot more.
- massysett 10y ago
  Sounds like Lasership in the USA. Non-uniformed people driving the most beat-up, random private vehicles possible, with a "LS" decal slapped on the side. Seems Amazon doesn't want to pay for decent people. They don't even bother to ring the bell when leaving a package on the porch. That said, I'm not sure they are worse than USPS and UPS, both of whom have left packages outside in the rain in the middle of the driveway without ringing the bell.
  - Bedon292 10y ago
    I have to say, never had a problem with Lasership. They actually come up to my door, ring the bell, and move on. Never lost a package or anything like I have with FedEx / UPS. And the USPS stopped ringing my door bell a long time ago. Just comes up drops it by the door and leaves. So they seem to be the best in my area, despite them all driving around in their personal vehicles and no uniforms.
  - rschuetzler 10y ago
    I haven't had a doorbell ring or knock at the door by UPS in probably 3-4 years. I get that they're too busy to wait for everyone to come to the door, but you'd think they could at least knock.
- dx034 10y ago
  Works very well for me. It's rental vehicles, but the drivers are much more engaged than other companies. They usually even call me if I'm not home to ask where to leave the package. I guess it's always down to the driver. On average, they won't be better or worse than UPS/Royal Mail/Interlink...
phodo 10y ago
I've been a prime member for a while, and ordering from amazon is part of our regular routine for acquiring stuff. I've never had much of a problem, until recently. And UPS was entirely to blame. They (UPS) forgot the AC on the dock, and it ended up being delayed by a week. When it arrived, there were broken parts in the box. Amazon took responsibility and sent me a new one (with a $50 cash back due to inconvenience). I had them file a complaint w UPS. The replacement unit ended up being late as well... it was sent to the wrong address and signed by the recipient. UPS left the package at the wrong address! Amazon was very apologetic and told me they would escalate the complaint to their shipping logistics dept. I could tell they were super frustrated at the lack of control they had over UPS. So they sent me a _third_ AC unit. This one arrived, but there was water damage in the box. I, for one, am for Amazon owning the full experience and removing UPS from the chain.
- gt565k 10y ago
  I'd have to agree with you. I've had 2 bad experiences with Amazon orders, and USPS was to blame for both. They put the envelope/package in the wrong mailbox in the apartment complex I live in and marked it as delivered. I've received other people's mail in the past too... Amazon's customer service has been exceptional, they send an overnight replacement with UPS and required a signature. Recently, Amazon opened a pickup location near where I live, and I've been shipping more expensive items there. The pickup process takes less than 15 seconds. Literally, walk in, scan barcode, locker opens up, and I pickup my package. Can't wait for Amazon to own the entire vertical and optimize the living shit out of it.
  - imatworkyo 10y ago
    Hmmm this is a human problem at the end of the day. You don't get the wrong mail because of USPS policy. When the mailperson that delivers your mail currently gets fired by USPS and gets hired by Amazon - do you think much will change in that regard??
    - microcolonel 10y ago
      There are policy changes around labelling, IT, or whatever that I'm sure could reduce the error rate for this. Amazon has a direct incentive to, at least for Amazon packages, solve these problems. UPS has an incentive to ignore complaints.
djyaz1200 10y ago
I suspect their goal is to have enough logistics capability that they have pricing leverage over traditional carriers.
hiphopyo 10y ago
Anybody else wishing they would set up shop in the Scandinavian countries so poor people there could earn money off their affiliate program as well?
a_lifters_life 10y ago
You're horrible at this Amazon stick with retail instead.
hakanensari 10y ago
I suppose this way they could start learning when you're (likelier to be) home and tweak delivery times to happen then. Just reading comments here, you can anecdotally see there's a lot of inefficiency caused by courier attempting to deliver when no one's home and/or leaving with a neighbour/on the porch/etc. and things getting lost.
hackermailman 10y ago
Mailman and software developer here. Of course all these problems can be fixed with a simple db that tells the delivery agent upon scanning any customer specifics like no safe dropping, go to rear door, ect. Weird individual access problems like gates or hidden doors could also be entered by agents to keep an up to date personalized delivery schedule. Right now the process is a bunch of cards that get lost and are outdated and take a lot of time to check for every delivery. Agents should be able to see a complete overview of delivery that day, in order of route, and consistent metrics taken to better the service over time. Staffing could get weekly info of inbound parcels for each route and determine staff levels needed as compared to now which is just fly by seat of your pants. Of course CanPost who I work for don't do any of this, don't talk to any employees and make all these decisions far away from the people who have to implement them. The routes they design are ridiculous and nobody follows the official version. It seems trivial to solve since it's just a plaintext database and updates, plus talking to the agents to average time values and build efficient routes but for whatever reasons they don't even try. The DbaaS startup I work for remotely is constantly asking me ways they can improve, nobody at CPC has ever done so. I was surprised when Amazon delivery appeared on the streets and they were run just as poorly as us, assumed they would 'disrupt' delivery instead of carbon copying an already bad service with UPS/Post/DHL ect.
- DashRattlesnake 10y ago
  > Of course all these problems can be fixed with a simple db that tells the delivery agent upon scanning any customer specifics like no safe dropping, go to rear door, etc. That's a feature that UPS My Choice and FedEx Delivery manager have had for a long time. UPS even lets me permanently divert all deliveries to my address to a nearby UPS store.
  - hackermailman 10y ago
    Anecdote, the UPS driver I see everyday claims all sorts of problems with their hand helds giving incorrect info or seizing mid route. They are also all working heavy overtime, min 12hrs a day to finish their routes here. That said they are probably the best out of the usual big delivery companies but that's not saying much since just in this thread they also have consistent problems. Amazon likely hired managers from these companies so they just implemented a carbon copy
hourislate 10y ago
I'm curious whether they could save a substantial amount of money by moving Full Trailers instead of LTL or having UPS/FedEx do it. A full trailer can cost them as much as $1200 from CA to TX where as UPS or FedEx would charge much more. So by distributing between distribution centers they would probably save some money. I also think having planes will greatly reduce the time it takes to bring items from China. ATM it can take 10-14 days on the water via container ship. They could probably load the equivalent of 2-3 40' Containers in a plane and fly it to CA for the same price a cargo company would charge. It's not necessary to replace UPS or FedEx, just the parts that cost Amazon the most money and are easily replaceable.
jxramos 10y ago
If they go that route would anyone have any recourse to like antitrust suits? Any precedent close to something growing all encompassing like this? I'm all for them taking an end to end approach, its like with any third party delegation where quality issues arise, you end up being stuck with the reputation hit.
smilekzs 10y ago
FYI: jd.com (used to be Chinese clone of Amazon) did the same a few years ago.
dstainer 10y ago
One area to keep an eye on with this is the Fulfillment By Amazon (FBA) program. If they do indeed take on UPS/FedEx, the FBA program will now be able to store, sell, fulfill and deliver your product without leaving Amazon.
WheelsAtLarge 10y ago
This is nothing but a win for Amazon. They have themselves as customers plus all the other online retailers. Also, they can better optimize to fit the online business environment with the latest tech. UPS and fedex have to deal with the old ways of doing shipping plus the unions. If they fail, at the very least, they force the other delivery companies to be better competitors. But ultimately this is a loss for the everyday worker. The loss of the unions means the standard of living will fall for those that work in the delivery business. Walmart has always been seen as the enemy because of their never ending fight to lower prices which means lower salaries for their workers. I think Amazon is done a good job in not only lowering workers pay but destroying jobs. Why has Amazon escaped the same criticism? Not only that, but they are admired by many as the future of doing business and in effect employee treatment. What gives?
- fthssht 10y ago
  It seems to me that Amazon gets a tremendous amount of bad press singing the exact song you just sung. However, I think the analogy is more like Uber drivers for package delivery. A union won't stop a job from becoming obsolete due to technology and society isn't willing to stop the advance of technology. Its probably more advisable to develop a plan to retrain then try to get in a union as a taxi driver or package deliverer.
- lmm 10y ago
  Removing jobs entirely seems less exploitative than lowering pay, somehow.
lettergram 10y ago
Yeah... Amazon, the delivery service delivered some mason jars for me. They literally dropped them and half were broken. I had a massive box of broken glass. By contrast I've never had an issue with FedEx or UPS (USPS is bad, and so is onTrac).
Zigurd 10y ago
I had a monitor that needed you be delivered on time for a project falsely marked as an attempted delivery by ups. I was persistent and obtained the phone number if the local ups depot. I called them and made it clear that I knew they were bullshiting. The driver was sent out to make the delivery and, thinking i wasn't home, threw the monitor on the ground, stomped it, and drop kicked it onto my front steps. Yay for well designed packaging. The real lesson here is that Amazon's SLA should have given them the positioning data it takes to catch ups in a lie like this. I should not have had to pursue it. Amazon should have been penalizing then by an amount that stings AND having the driver out late.
davidf18 10y ago
I was at a conference in NYC and I was met an AWS person and yesterday I mentioned to him that Amazon was a logistics company with the Amazon Robotics subsidiary running their warehouses and leasing of airplanes for airfreight and how it would compete with UPS. I have had problems with Fedex delivering for Amazon and with Same Day Service in Manhattan twice. Amazon also has these pickup boxes in the local drug store -- they do think of things. A lot of the stores seem to run out of items in NYC and I'm hoping Amazon would run the warehouses/logistics for these stores chains (e.g., CVS, Duane Reed). RE: USPS. I don't like it when they delivery last mile.
macjohnmcc 10y ago
I've had delivery problems when Amazon itself was doing the delivery. My wife and I were both home for the entire day (as usual) and we were expecting a package. About 2pm I got an e-mail saying "there was no answer at the door" and "no safe place to put the package". I was sitting 10 feet from the door. As far as a safe place the entry way to our house is a fully covered 8 foot deep area. The package was not exceptionally big. I called Amazon and said frankly that the driver was lying. He finally sheepishly delivered the package a few hours later. He ran up and dropped off the box then ran back to his car.
tylerruby 10y ago
Links to WSJ should be replaced with a link to Google with the query being the title of the article. That way we can easily navigate to the article without hitting paywall. I can't be the first one to mention this! :)
- ihowlatthemoon 10y ago
  You aren't. That's why the "web" link below the title exists.
KennyCason 10y ago
It's interesting that the CFO of FedEx claims this is unreasonable. Given that Amazon has at least two major other products (AWS + The core store), it seems that they could potentially operate their delivery/logistics operations at cost and undercut UPS/FedEx. Given that delivery/logistics is UPS/FedEx is their core business, they can't.
dmritard96 10y ago
who is amazon's biggest competitor in the e-commerce space? its a little scary that they seem to have a winner takes all effect and both create their own products, get all data from products sold, invest in companies etc etc. I just worry that they don't have adequare competition to keep them in check...
- berntb 10y ago
  They are their own worst enemy. It is getting too hard to buy physical stuff from Amazon and not getting fakes. :-( Right now I have a new type of problem: I have waited for a package (in Romania) for a month, which the German DHL won't deliver. I have contacted the seller every week. Amazon has some "must answer in 3 days" rule for sellers -- but seems to accept auto answering emails as an answer! My claim was cancelled because the sellers promised to deliver, now nothing happens when I complain. (DHL has delivered to me before, worked great. And I work from home these weeks.) It is just ridiculous. This seems to be some criminal that found a hole in the Amazon state machine for orders/sellers/delivery/returns/cancels/etc: Send empty packages with bad addresses and never deliver, after 3 months the sale times out. The only problem is that every time this happens, Amazon lose an old customer.
  - berntb 10y ago
    The package arrived after I had to call the transport companies myself, sigh.
wvh 10y ago
This might provide a good incentive to the postal infrastructure to improve their prices and service offerings. In lots of European countries the postal system is semi-privatised but still in a state of semi-monopoly. End-user logistics as provided by companies like DHL, PostNord and UPS are trying to get a foothold in the market, but at least here in Northern Europe we're still far from having a free market situation with different delivery options and competitive pricing. Sending packages – especially out of the country, like in the case of Amazon returns – can be prohibitively expensive. If large companies like Amazon would threaten or effectively start to handle their own logistics, it just might force the market to open up a bit more.
- generj 10y ago
  The problem with having too many package carriers is that the infrastructure is so expensive it's almost a natural monopoly. It's really difficult to have a multitude of companies in the market.
generj 10y ago
I'd be interested to see if any collusion between the duopoly occurs in the next interval. All UPS and FedEx would have to do is put a cap on Amazon's packages for the holiday season at the last second to hobble them.
sunshiney 10y ago
I read this with interest as I live on the edge of a rural town where I am building a business that spurs the use of tech and net in rural areas of my 3 state region. We have fiber access but lag in net commerce skills and tech hubs. I was at the PO recently. Mail here is delivered direct to farms but townies must go to the PO. I was told by the PO Master that any large volume mailings would require the sender to drive some 25 miles to the next PO as she could not handle themm She was annoyed that I had received 7 Amazon boxes. They had filled up the small space in her office and I had to cone get them immedistely. This caused me to begin thinking of the clash between growing rural commerce and an unexpected pest..the Post Office! Amazon may provide a partial solution but still pondering how to completely solve.

296 points by cosmoharrigan 10y ago

I think this is silly. Simply having that last mile communication with USPS/Fedex solves the issue entirely. E.g 'just left your parcel on the side of the porch, behind the tree, no one was home'. Or requesting them to do that if you're not home. With the other issues of wrong deliveries and the like Amazon is just as likely to get it wrong.

tedunangst 10y ago

They're pretty terrible at it. Whenever I get something shipped by amazon courier, I know it's down to about 50% chance of delivery. "Package was handed to a resident." Yeah, so where is it? "Ask a neighbor." Yeah, right, in a building with 100 residents I'm going to go door to door asking about my package. The "good" days are when they leave it on the sidewalk outside (in a city!) and I notice it's there before anybody else does.

SEJeff 10y ago
My experience in a single family home is the polar opposite. I always get a txt or polite call (always originating from Seattle, WA) asking if I want them to put the package somewhere in specific or leave it at the door. I've went and spoken with a few of them. They're far and above better than Fedex / UPS and never throw the packages over my gate into my flowerbeds.
- dannyr 10y ago
  Same here. Amazon has been great. They also deliver on Sundays and they call me since my apartment building's package room is closed on Sundays.
- tigarcia 10y ago
  I agree completely. I usually have the most problems with packages delivered through the US Postal Service and I haven't had any problems to speak of with Amazon delivery.
  - tracker1 10y ago
    When I lived outside a major metro area for a couple years (Prescott Valley, AZ for reference), the USPS was horrible there, packages sitting on the mailbox in the rain, delivered literally blocks/streets off of both the address by number and street name... There were a dozen or so times a year we'd get someone else's packages. Actually getting packages from USPS was under 50%. I started having stuff delivered to work, as it was more reliable. And I panicked when I read about USPS doing last mile delivery for other carriers. I haven't had that near as much in town, but USPS is my absolute last choice in the space.
    - lutorm 10y ago
      Here in Hawaii, USPS has been at least as good as any of the other companies, while charging a fraction of the cost. We're talking 1/4 the cost or less, and delivery from most places on the mainland in usually 3 days, maybe 4.
      - tracker1 10y ago
        It will vary greatly by area... I haven't had any issues in the Phoenix area... There are still a lot of neighborhoods in Phoenix that still have their mailboxes at the house, not the curb. Though I have friends farther out in newer neighborhoods that have less than great experiences.
  - matwood 10y ago
    This completely. If I order from Amazon and it shows them handing it to USPS, I email/call right away because odds are I will not get the package. I complained to the postmaster multiple times. Although, as a typical gov. employee, he just laughed and said we do what we want, it is your neighborhoods problem. Eventually the whole neighborhood got together and made some changes happen. It is still not perfect, but better.
- tedunangst 10y ago
  Heh, everyone's experience is different. Until recently Amazon used UPS for everything and I never had a problem. They deliver the packages to the business next door. Just like it says on the sign by the front door.
  - pbreit 10y ago
    And since Amazon is incredibly customer-focused, I have an easier time believing the positive anecdotes.
    - untog 10y ago
      Why do you assume people are lying, just because other people have different experiences than them? It is possible for both to be true. You sound like a marketers dream.
    - majormajor 10y ago
      It's still a pretty hard problem to solve, though. My experience is that it's taken Amazon about 3 years to figure out how to do their own deliveries in LA. The first ones were terrible. They seemed to have no good fallback if the building's gate was locked and nobody was available to buzz them in, and stuff just got lost. They were customer focused, yes, but that just meant they shipped me free replacement stuff with free overnight non-Amazon shipping. Not the best experience overall, though, compared to getting it on the original date. Fast forward to 2016 and they're pretty good here. Though USPS has been best for my building (and elsewhere people here are talking about USPS being the worst - again, it's a hard problem to solve for every area for everyone).
    - ascagnel_ 10y ago
      I've had nothing but problems with them: * Package marked as delivered on Saturday. Package actually delivered on Sunday. * Package not delivered because there was no safe place to leave it (there's a sign next to the front door with instructions do leave it in the complex's leasing office across the street). * Package delivered to my door, despite my door being behind multiple card-access doors. * Package left at the door to the leasing office, even though the leasing office was open and the lights were on. These have all happened in the past three months. I'm borderline ready to cancel Prime.
- monksy 10y ago
  I didn't order a package from Amazon, but it was shipped from the company to me via amazon. (I refuse to buy from Aamzon) The amazon delievery person ended up putting on the slip "in the flower bed." I've had other horror stories about delivery people being clueless about leaving it, and/or where to leave it. I've had a lot less issues with UPS than I've had with the Amazon delievery service.
  - Grishnakh 10y ago
    >I didn't order a package from Amazon, but it was shipped from the company to me via amazon. Are you sure about that? It sounds like you bought from an arbitrager: someone who's just a middleman, posts something for sale which they don't even have, but at a higher price than some retailer that does. Then, when you buy it, they go buy the thing (on Amazon in this case), use your address as the delivery address, and then pocket the difference. It's extremely common on Ebay and Amazon both, and many other places.
    - monksy 10y ago
      It was the company who made the item.
- jasonmp85 10y ago
  So here's the thing. I don't want the carrier to call to ask how to deliver a package. I have never had a FedEX or UPS carrier do that, they just put it where all packages for my building are supposed to go. I've had Amazon Logistics carriers: Be unable to find my door (it's a non-gated, outward facing door in a row-style townhome with street access). Leave things at an _entirely different_ residential complex, whose address matched neither my street name nor number. They've done this twice, and not even at the same wrong complex (the hint is it said "left at reception", and we don't have a reception area). Try to pressure me into letting them just leave something on the sidewalk outside a gated apartment ("would that be safe?"). I'm a Prime addict and I feel like my dealer just started cutting the supply. At least let Prime members opt-out of Amazon Logistics (hell, I'd pay extra in my annual fee to do so).
  - wlesieutre 10y ago
    This isn't unique to Amazon's couriers. I've had UPS leave a package "at loading dock" in a similar row-style townhome with street access. I still have no idea where that one ended up. Not sure that I've ever had a package delivered by Amazon, but if I did there weren't any problems. That UPS incident is my only personal shipping issue in years.
  - enraged_camel 10y ago
    >>So here's the thing. I don't want the carrier to call to ask how to deliver a package. I have never had a FedEX or UPS carrier do that, they just put it where all packages for my building are supposed to go. I wish I could say the same. I get calls from UPS delivery guys/gals about 30% of the time because I live in a duplex and my unit faces the alley. So they come in through the main street, can't find "Unit B" and end up calling me. I have to explain to them that they have to enter through the gate on the side. This one time they left the package in front of the mailboxes, out in the open. When I got home, the entire box was soaking wet from the rain. Gross.
    - enraged_camel 10y ago
      I've gotten a lot of downvotes for this and I'm not sure why. Am I saying something controversial?
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some-guy 10y ago
I had this problem as well. I used to live in an apartment complex with a key entry that UPS, USPS, and FedEx had access to, but not Amazon. I never knew when they were going to arrive and they kept saying that they tried but couldn't deliver the package (we didn't have a code, only key entry). Since I couldn't guarantee what carrier would be used, I eventually had to use Amazon Locker only. I live in a house now and no longer have this problem.
buro9 10y ago
I've basically stopped using them because of this. I would shop from Amazon again if I could choose to have something delivered by Royal Mail as then I know it would get to my door. Amazon did the whole "left with neighbour" thing... but my neighbours are drug dealers and their clients come and go all the time... the packages never turned up and I'm hardly going to go confront the neighbours about it. I shopped there for convenience, to reduce hassle, and their delivery service increased hassle.
- yomly 10y ago
  This has been getting progressively worse for me. I suspect it is a known problem at Amazon but I'm confident this is actually an "innovation" of the delivery men. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they are gaming the system by dumping a street or apartment's deliveries all with one resident. They're all so stretched for time that they have to cut corners to meet their targets... For Amazon they need to find a means of setting humane targets and then finding a way to accurately measure performance of staff...
  - bitJericho 10y ago
    That's not the Amazon way.
  - Florin_Andrei 10y ago
    You might be on to something here. I live in a safe neighborhood, the door and the number are easy to see from the street, so the delivery person should waste no time locating the place. I never had issues with Amazon. Seems like they're pushing the system a bit too far.
  - DashRattlesnake 10y ago
    > They're all so stretched for time that they have to cut corners to meet their targets... > For Amazon they need to find a means of setting humane targets and then finding a way to accurately measure performance of staff... Yeah, my suspicion is that this is the root cause of my troubles with them. I live in an apartment building, but I have a street-accessible front door, so I have a sign clearly saying to leave packages with the apartment manager in the office. Half the time they just dump the packages at my door anyway, the other half of the time they just dump them at the office's street-accessible door, because they got there when it was closed. I don't know what's so hard about noting a delivery exception and attempting again the next day. All the other carriers seem to be able to handle that. A few of the drivers have called me for instructions, but it's kind of pointless: the next day's driver is just going ignore all the instructions and dump the package anyway. It wouldn't be so bad if I could have all Amazon Delivery packages redirected to one of their nearby drop boxes, like I do with UPS. The problem is if I set things up to use an Amazon drop box, ALL my stuff will go there, not just the Amazon delivery orders, and they don't support 2-day shipping. I still want the USPS orders to go to my mailbox, since that's the most convenient option. They really need to allow users to enter shipping preferences, since not all carriers are the same for everyone. For me USPS and UPS are the best, Fedex and Amazon Logistics are the worst.
M_Grey 10y ago
Similar experience here, although not as frequent or egregious, it's still noticeably inferior to other means of shipping.
mmanfrin 10y ago
Late one night (like 9pm) I was just arriving home in my car and hit my garage gate when I saw someone with a flashlight at my front walking gate (like 15ft away). I drove in to my driveway while looking at the person, got out of my car and walked back around to see what they were doing. When I got back to the sidewalk they saw me, threw something over my fence, and then ran away. It was my package, they were the Amazon courier and couldn't figure out how to open my front gate. It was bizarre.
samfisher83 10y ago
I have too many issues with amazon delivery.
mintplant 10y ago
Yep. I used to associate Amazon with reliability, but now I'm lucky if a package is delivered at all, let alone to a neighbor or by the "guaranteed" delivery date. I'm seriously considering dropping my Prime membership because it doesn't seem to be paying for anything. Last week I paid extra to have two packages delivered by Monday. On Monday the expected delivery date had changed to Tuesday; on Tuesday, it was Wednesday; on Wednesday, Thursday; and on Thursday, my packages finally arrived. As far as I can tell Amazon has kept the fees I paid despite failing to hold up their end of the bargain.
- bitJericho 10y ago
  Yeah you have to call them to recover your shipping. Don't let them give you a gift card either.
cmsimike 10y ago
My first thoughts exactly. I think I am below a 50% success rate with them. There was about a week and a half where _none_ of our Amazon orders showed up.
8ytecoder 10y ago
My experience is different and was vastly better than Fedex (UPS/USPS I generally don't have issues with). They have consistently come after business hours so I'd be at home fto receive the package. They even called me once to schedule a time to deliver the package.
- chucksmash 10y ago
  FedEx is the only courier I have trouble with. I've never been home when they tried to deliver and they ignore the signed "I accept liability for this getting lost, just leave it leaned against my door" slip. Going to the distribution center to pick up the package typically entails a 30-45 minute wait. They require both an ID and proof of residence (e.g. electric bill) if the address on your ID doesn't match the delivery address - and of course nobody in line knows about this so you end up spending that 30-45 minutes with a crowd of angry people who can't even pick up their packages.
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thenipper 10y ago
As I was about the write a reply to this I had one of them come up to the porch at my work. They looked at me through the open door. They looked at the mailbox. Then just put down the package and walked away. It was surreal.
devy 10y ago
That sounds exactly like my experience with UPS. We are in fact at the mercy of the carrier assigned drivers to ensure our packages' safe delivery. Some neighborhood are fortunate to have great responsible delivery worker/driver who actually cares about delivering packages safe and sound; but to many of them though, it's just a job.
joshvm 10y ago
I use the deliver-to-shop method unless the item is huge. They deliver to a newsagent (grocery store) on the adjacent road and it's always before 7AM. Very nice, though I feel obliged to buy some milk to make up for using the shop as a dropship point.
stordoff 10y ago
I've had Amazon couriers lie on the tracking system on more than one occasion. Last week it was "Delivered to resident <name>" at a time I knew everyone was out of the house (I later found the item behind my bin). I get a month extra Prime each time, but I likely won't be renewing when it runs out.
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  I really have to wonder here: why didn't they just put in their tracking system, "hid item behind bin"? I don't really care if they hide my delivery, as long as I can find it. It's better hidden than stuck out in the open where someone can easily steal it.
MicroBerto 10y ago
For the past 10 years, I've used a UPS Store Box (or similar) for as many of my deliveries as possible. They accept any kind of package, and email you when it arrives. The security and peace of mind is well worth the cost. There are very few packages I need the minute they're delivered.
- technofiend 10y ago
  P.O. Box - same thing. Very few shippers don't ship to a P.O. Box and 99% of those will do it after a polite request.
  - massysett 10y ago
    USPS now allows you to use a street address for your PO Box so it can receive non-US Mail.
    - stevenwiles 10y ago
      You're rich and you expect people to feel sorry for you?
elcct 10y ago
In my case when it is raining for example, there is little chance for them to bother with delivery.
toephu2 10y ago
Your anecdotal evidence is not representative of all Amazon customers... or even most. Edit: saw your response, fair enough.
- jrcii 10y ago
  70% of my "one day" prime deliveries result in false delivery attempts -- due to either A1 International, Lasership, or "AMZN" couriers. Reporting these problems to customer service I've been told that they're aware of the problem, so it is definitely happening at some kind of scale.
drzaiusapelord 10y ago
The problem I see, when its not just a general "fuck you" attitude (common with USPS workers for example) is that a lot of people willing to take these delivery jobs are often from suburban and rural area businesses that take these contracts and hire local talent. These people are not given the appropriate level of training to handle dense urban environments. I live deep in the heart of Chicago and if you leave a package on my doorstep it will either get stolen or opened up to see if anything of value is inside and discarded in the bushes. I had to put a sign on my mailbox asking delivery people to toss the package over the fence and into my yard if I'm not home. This is basic common sense in a big city. Sadly, its sometimes ignored. I now just deal with work delivery which means a good chance of a package getting lost in 30 floor skyscraper I work in. Its incredible how shitty package delivery is in general.
jmcgough 10y ago
I started renting a PO box for deliveries that I can swing by after work. It sucks to have to carry heavy stuff the last mile, but the alternative is just not getting deliveries ever, and I buy most things through amazon these days.
- pimeys 10y ago
  I just order everything that is not too heavy to carry to our office. I never miss any deliveries this way and most of the time the items are small enough to carry in my bike bag.
- tedunangst 10y ago
  I totally understand why you'd do that, having considered it myself, but this is a really backwards solution. The article is all about how the last mile delivery is difficult. So the solution is to suck at it until the customer gives up and solves it for you?
anbotero 10y ago
I don’t know what to think. I live in Miami, and packages ALWAYS have been delivered here, on time. I’ve been buying from them for five years, two and a half of those as a Prime customer, so it’s clear the are not real differences besides delivery times. Maybe it’s the state you live in? They have never given anything to my neighbours when no one was at home during delivery, they always tried next day, call or leave a form to schedule next delivery time so someone DOES receive the package.
- j2bax 10y ago
  Can you clarify if this was just typical UPS/Fedex deliveries through Amazon or Amazon Courier service?
Zombieball 10y ago
The problem with this anecdote, and many of the comments I see about "Amazon delivery" is it only manages to address Amazon as a last-mile carrier. If you look at the "Ground Control" infographic in the article, a significant portion of logistics is in the linehaul network: tractors + 53' trailers full of thousands of packages. At the end of the day you don't really know if Amazon, Fedex, or USPS handled these shipments, all you see is the guy who shows up to your door. I imagine there is the potential for huge savings to have Amazon vertically integrate this. Sure, personalized delivery to your doorstep is a tough problem to solve. But delivery of thousands of packages between point A and B? Not as tough.

cosmoharrigan 10y ago

In addition to the program to run their own parcel shipping network, referred to as "Consume the City", it also mentions an interesting experiment called "I Have Space", which allows Amazon to utilize excess capacity in warehouses owned by third parties. Note that Amazon has already launched "Seller Fulfilled Prime" for third party sellers which meet certain metrics.

dingaling 10y ago

An interesting condition of the Amazon deal with Atlas, for 767 freighters: but [Amazon] may cancel the CMI deal with just 180 days’ notice merely for the sake of “convenience”, which can be implemented from January 1, 2018. CMI is (air)crew, maintenance and insurance and they then combine that with a dry-lease of the airframes from an Atlas subsidiary. http://theloadstar.co.uk/atlas-air-shareholders-approve-amazon-deal-despite-fears-pilots-ground-crew/ http://theloadstar.co.uk/atlas-air-shareholders-approve-amaz... So it looks as if 2017 will be the proving-year for Amazon to determine whether they want to take the plunge into self-managed logistics, and they have an escape clause if not.

cosmoharrigan 10y ago
That is interesting. But the dry lease would survive cancellation of the CMI agreement, right?

xutopia 10y ago

Is anyone concerned with Amazon taking over too many things? It's already killing smaller shops... I understand why but it's now trying to take over content and all forms of shipping? I'm worried we'll have a single mega store one day from which we buy all our things.

gigatexal 10y ago
No, I don't have any qualms with this. I just want quality stuff at the cheapest prices. Smaller shops will serve niches that Amazon doesn't.
- clock_tower 10y ago
  "Quality stuff at the cheapest prices" is how we got into this corporate-oligarchy mess in the first place...
  - ci5er 10y ago
    You expect consumers to pick crappier stuff, at higher prices and more inconvenience? Or that the companies who provide better/faster/cheaper not to grow large on providing what the people want at the prices they want to pay?
- monksy 10y ago
  > I just want quality stuff at the cheapest prices. Which Amazon has been spammed by chinese dropshippers. > cheapest prices Not always. Depends what you're looking for.
  - tracker1 10y ago
    Yeah, and it's really annoying when you're looking for certain items that have many generics.
  - bitJericho 10y ago
    Item for item, I find eBay buy it now prices at least 10 percent cheaper.

koolba 10y ago

More competition is a win for all of us (consumers). Plus anything is better than the rag tag set of local shippers they use for same/next day orders (or 2-day orders that were late getting out). I'm not going to name and shame, but I've had bad experiences with all of the non-majors (i.e. not UPS, FedEX, USPS) they use from coast to coast.

atestu 10y ago
Amazon will go from using many competing companies to using their own shipping service… maybe you have a different way of looking at it, but that's less competition in my book.
- arrosenberg 10y ago
  The locals will still exist (but many of them aren't good, as parent said. As both a shipper and a recipient, I've had bad experiences with OnTrac for example), but this will create another national/international carrier, which I think is a plus for competition.
- ci5er 10y ago
  Amazon can provide a competing shipping service. If they give me a choice, I'll pick the one that best fits my needs. It might be theirs; it might not be. If they don't offer that choice, and force me to use theirs, and theirs fails to deliver according to my criteria too often, I'll shop elsewhere. How did that limit competition?

curiousDog 10y ago

I was thinking they'd be competing with Uber, Lyft as well in the not too distant future. They're building out a sizable network through Amazon local and fresh (maybe I have a distorted view of this because I live in Seattle though)

tracker1 10y ago
I'm half surprised they didn't by Lyft for that purpose earlier on.

faragon 10y ago

Logical move, in my opinion: it is easier to scale delivery at Amazon scale by doing it by themselves in cities/areas with enough critical mass.

rambos 10y ago

I thought this was already a known thing?

cosmoharrigan 10y ago

"Amazon’s goal, these people say, is to one day haul and deliver packages for itself as well as other retailers and consumers" They could choose to offer parcel shipping services to any retailer as part of the Amazon Marketplace Web Services API, just as they currently offer the Multi-Channel Fulfillment API[1], which allows a retailer to fulfill orders from any sales channel using the Fulfillment by Amazon network. [1] http://docs.developer.amazonservices.com/en_US/fba_outbound/index.html http://docs.developer.amazonservices.com/en_US/fba_outbound/...

elchief 10y ago

I don't see how Amazon can do it cheaper (cost-wise)/better than UPS or Fedex, who have been optimizing for 50 years. If they can't do it better/cheaper then the reason to do it is because UPS or Fedex are rent-seeking, and doing it themselves would bring Amazon's cost close to the actual cost of delivering

MBCook 10y ago
UPS/Fedex have to pick up and go anywhere. Amazon only has to move things between their warehouses and consumers. 99% of pickups are at their warehouses. Hell if they use UPS/FedEx for returns then it's 100%.
- unit91 10y ago
  Exactly. And Amazon doesn't even have to reach all of its customers. They can target high density areas, and use traditional shippers to deliver the rest.
- tracker1 10y ago
  There's also the profit margins that UPS and FedEx have, which is probably not huge, but Amazon can edge those out as well.
mmanfrin 10y ago
Because it's not just shipping. Shipping is the avenue for entry, but the last-mile delivery market is suitable for lots of things, like: Amazon Fresh (groceries, which UPS/Fedex cannot do) 1 hour delivery (which UPS/Fedex cannot do without keeping their fleet at Amazon's warehouses) Restaurant delivery etc The point is to capture the means of delivery so they can become the carrier for parcels/food/whatever. Uber is trying to do this too. As is Postmates. UPS/Fedex have the issue that they are very good for bulk travel, but weak at last mile (it works for them now because of the volume they do, but the best they can reasonably do is next-day).
- omarchowdhury 10y ago
  Seems like a merger between Amazon and either UPS or Fedex would be a wise decision, imagine that. And they don't necessarily have to pull antitrust measures afterwards, they can put their energy into effiencies instead of exploitation. And I don't think the merger would even blocked by government for antitrust concerns because they still have a lot of competition.

daxfohl 10y ago

I wonder if UPS and FedEx will ever want to run their business on top of Amazon's platform even though it's a direct competitor now, like Netflix does.

bdcravens 10y ago
As far as I know, Amazon has thus far done a good job of segregating AWS and Amazon retail operations.

badgers 10y ago

Amazon has been doing this for years now, and they'll never completely abandon using the USPS, UPS or FedEx for the foreseeable future. Their line haul network has always been solid, and they've been using other carriers to do the most expensive portion of the package life cycle, the last mile delivery. The article touched on the fact that they've been doing trials of deliveries in large cities that have the package density to make it profitable. Amazon certainly has volume to fill delivery trucks, and I expect them to continue this trend by identifying profitable delivery routes. However I don't see them competing with a nationwide network on the scale of UPS or FedEx anywhere in the near future. Amazon will continue to be a customer alongside a competitor of them.

losteverything 10y ago

$1.50 is what USPS charges (but I can't find the redacted document) and that IMO is quite a deal. They will use less humans. Why would FedEx ups change when it makes a pile now. I recall hearing how letters would never be sorted automatically. It will take an outsider like Zon to get to the future.

cosmoharrigan 10y ago
What document are you referring to?
- losteverything 10y ago
  As I recall a labor agreement \ negotiation support document from the NALC or APWU. But I'm old and probably lost it.
  - cosmoharrigan 10y ago
    If you happen to find it again, it would be interesting to look over it.
    - losteverything 10y ago
      K. It supported Usps side to (current situation) make temp positions at $16.85 no OT termed after 360 days because Zon contract pays "x" and if full union labor would pay up to $43
    - losteverything 10y ago
      K. It supported Usps side to (current situation) make temp positions at $16.85 no OT termed after 360 days because Zon contract pays "x" and if full union labor would pay up to $43

sobinator 10y ago

While taking on this challenge will be something like building their own private Appalachian Trail, ambitious in its own right, I'll be interested in something more subtle that this article touched on, "upending the traditional relationship between seller and sender."--will we begin to see widespread shipping arbitrage[1]? http://www.sidehustlenation.com/amazon-fba-clearance-arbitrage-shopping/ http://www.sidehustlenation.com/amazon-fba-clearance-arbitra...

sfRattan 10y ago

Am I the only one bothered by the use of the term "sortation?" I had a roommate in college from London who pointed out that Americans tend to add "-ation" onto words where it isn't necessary or doesn't further elaborate the meaning (e.g. transportation where transport is sufficient). I haven't been able to un-notice our rather pointless addition of letters to nouns. What is wrong with Sort Center or Sorting Center? I did, before writing this post, find "sortation" in some unabridged dictionaries referring to a mechanized or automated sorting process, but the word still just sounds off to me...

DavidAdams 10y ago
It bugged me too. I don't recall ever having heard that particular word innovation before, so I think it's just a made up variant.
lightbyte 10y ago
"Sort" and "Sortation" are different words, they are not interchangeable. The "-ation" suffix not just a random suffix added on, it has a specific meaning - "The action or process of doing something". So "sortation" means the process of sorting.
- asdfqwerutoe 10y ago
  Some would say "the process of sorting" is sorting.
  - hammock 10y ago
    And "the process of transporting" is transportation (or transport). The reason "sort" can't easily replace "sortation" is because it's only one syllable. The two meanings of "transport" are distinguished by pronunciation: TRANSport vs. transPORT
- sfRattan 10y ago
  The definition of "sort" that I'm finding in the context we're talking about is: the act of separating things and putting them in a particular order : the act of sorting things[1]. The same source gives a further definition as "an instance of sorting <a numeric sort of a data file>." Perhaps -ation adds some meaning, but I don't see how it wouldn't already be present in the context of any hypothetical sentence. The action or process of the act of sorting seems redundant. My own bias is certainly towards brevity in most cases where context gives a clear meaning. I should clarify that -ation seems unnecessary where the noun it extends: (a) already describes a process. (b) is in common use describing a process. The suffix seems more useful where it explicitly turns a verb into a noun where there was no suitable noun in common use, or where any existing nouns derived from the same root do not refer to a process. This is the ignored distinction my roommate's offhand comment likely implied. The problem appears to be that American English simply no longer sticks to the formal meaning added by the suffix. Reserve/reservation and preserve/preservation are used interchangeably to refer to large plots of land left to nature. But making a reservation at a hotel is the process of reserving a room. I guess this ambiguity is what we get for speaking a language without central authority. I'll take it over ivory tower language academies decrying use of "le weekend..." ;) [1]: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sort http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sort

wAllDueRespect 10y ago

my guess is that UPS will eat their lunch. this is UPS's core business. they prob weren't doing what Amazon needed them to do partially because they have other customers and partially because Amazon likely wanted too much from them based on what Amazon was willing to pay. Amazon will likely place onerous requirements on sellers to squeeze pennies out of the shipping process. and then, eventually, when more of commerce has converted to the mail-delivered model, and UPS is making a profit, and Amazon realizes that they're throwing good resources after bad in an experiment gone wrong, they'll get back to focusing on selling stuff and out of the business of delivering stuff.

tracker1 10y ago
Even if Amazon only does last mile delivery to locations with warehouse facilities (which will probably be everywhere with a large airport), and only does the deliveries from said warehouses to customers in the local region, it's still probably worth it for them to take over that aspect. I don't know that last mile out to smaller areas will ever be worth it for Amazon.
shambala 10y ago
Just because it's UPS core business doesn't mean UPS is doing it right. Merchandising was Sears' core business. Heck, the airlines' core business is air transportation, and plenty of them have gone out of business/merged in the last few years. Also don't forget that UPS is a union ship, with very expensive union contracts. The UPS is the largest individual employer in the Teamsters Union. https://teamster.org/upsupsf-contract-updates/ups-agreements-2013-2018 https://teamster.org/upsupsf-contract-updates/ups-agreements...

saosebastiao 10y ago

Knowing nothing about this specific project, but knowing quite a bit about the cultures of their Transportation, Operations, and Supply Chain orgs, I would: 1) Say this is not news but PR. Congrats to Carney. 2) Expect actual technology to lag behind the vision communicated by 3+ years while the dev teams try to find remotely suitable heuristics for the NP-SweetMotherOfGod problems that the executives think are just a matter of throwing enough servers at. Several entire orgs will be eliminated or repurposed while this happens. 3) Expect costs to be an order of magnitude higher than the competition for a good 3-5 years due to really stupid and trivially fixable mistakes/inanities that are obvious to anybody on the ground floor. These inanities will eventually be addressed by some level 4 or level 5 analyst that will eventually (but not today) get fired for pointing out the wrong person's mistakes...or worse, endlessly moved around orgs with no advancement potential. 4) Expect it to be rolled out to countless cities mindlessly by some executive that thinks they can predict results for Kansas City based on actuals from New York City. These program rollouts will eventually extremely costly and will be neutered to mean nothing, delicately handling the PR hits as they come in, while the program will still exist on the record. The programs will never be shut down. 5) Expect it will eventually (5-10 years out) become cost-neutral, but never profitable. Right as this happens, some other crazy idea will be announced, pushing everybody back in the red. Rinse and repeat.

sanj 10y ago

Amazon doesn't need to compete directly with UPS and Fedex to win. Instead, I'd argue that they need to take over deliveries to easy deliveries (eg, cities) and continue to outsource the harder deliveries. I'd suggest that this would remove the profit-producing deliveries for UPS/FedEx and leave them with those that they do at a loss. It also explains the code name: "Consume the City"

martincmartin 10y ago
The expected response from UPS and Fedex is "if you don't use us for the cities, we'll refuse to take your harder deliveries. You need to be all or nothing." Or the equivalent: "we see the writing on the wall, so we're going to charge you an arm and a leg for each harder delivery, to make the most money before you handle those deliveries on your own too."
- swalsh 10y ago
  all or nothing, or.... you know, just raise the price.
  - bduerst 10y ago
    Pretty much. This move decreases Amazon's buying power with them so they can just raise rates accordingly.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  Considering that FedEx & UPS handover their "hard deliveries" to the USPS, I don't think Amazon is too worried. The USPS already handles Sunday deliveries for Amazon, they will probably expand that program if FedEx or UPS start getting too greedy.
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  I wonder if they can make that response. I know Fedex has argued at least once in court that they are a common carrier, and to my understanding, common carriers have some limits on how they can discriminate price or service based on who the customer is.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

paulcole 10y ago

If you're having problems with the Amazon Couriers just chat with Amazon support online. Explain the problems (give examples) and ask them to always ship using a different service. There's definitely an account setting for this that's not visible to the end user, because I went from 100% courier deliveries (with many issues) to 0% courier deliveries.

el_benhameen 10y ago
This doesn't seem to be very sticky, though. I've had nothing but trouble with OnTrac, so I requested that they not be used to ship items to me. For about three months they used different couriers, but just this week I got a delivery from OnTrac again.
- paulcole 10y ago
  Without proof, it makes sense from their perspective. Theoretically, they should be working to improve their delivery service. By having your preference expire, it should at least let you try what they believe the "best" option to be after a few months. If it still sucks you can complain again. Seems annoying as a customer, but I can get why they'd do it.
DashRattlesnake 10y ago
Can you give me more information on what you did to get that setting changed? I emailed them yesterday asking them to stop sending me packages with Amazon Logistics, and the rep denied that such a setting even existed and just sent my feedback to their shipping department: > I'm really sorry about the problems you've had with the last few shipments. Unfortunately, there is no way to request a specific shipper for your Amazon orders.
- paulcole 10y ago
  I told them that the last 3 deliveries got screwed up because they wouldn't leave items at my door. Said I was ready to cancel Prime because of it.

Declanomous 10y ago

Why would Amazon care if they damaged their reputation with Fedex and UPS? They can just do what UPS and Fedex do when it is too expensive to deliver a package somewhere -- turn it over to the USPS. Amazon is already using USPS to deliver packages on Sundays, which is win-win-win. Amazon wins, USPS wins, and the consumers win. Amazon's home delivery seems to work well where it's been rolled out, and I don't see competitive barriers to rolling it out elsewhere. I think the article fails to cover a lot of areas where Amazon will have a competitive advantage over UPS and Fedex. First of all, Amazon will be vertically integrated. They can control the packaging. They can control which warehouses are used to store items. This could lead to better packing efficiency in delivery vehicles, and could make automated loading of vehicles easier. If you have a particular route that is usually 110% full or 40% full, you could either move more items to that warehouse or take some away. Plus, Amazon can incentivize cheaper shipping options dynamically. Will the marginal cost of this order be incredibly high because you'll need a second truck for a particular route? Discount one day shipping, or offer two day shipping to their work instead. On top of all that, Amazon doesn't have unionized employees. That's a huge advantage when you are trying to reduce costs. Not only are their employees wages probably less, but they also don't have contracts that reduce planning ability, like fixed routes, etc. (The above is my comment on this post yesterday, though the post failed to get traction. I think it's probably still relevant 24 hours later)

freehunter 10y ago
When I was in an apartment I hated it when USPS got my package. When I wasn't home, they'd take it back to the post office which meant I had to then drive to the post office, at a time when they were open (which conflicted with my working hours). UPS or FedEx would leave it at the office. Now that I'm in a house, I much prefer USPS if only because my post man comes by at 9am and UPS/FedEx don't come by until 2-3pm.
- ghostly_s 10y ago
  I've had the exact opposite experience in every apartment I've lived in (like....10 now?). And USPS typically has a postal key to the entryway so they can leave packages inside. The best case scenario with FedEx has always been that they may ring a bunch of buzzers randomly before leaving the package on the doorstep and driving off.

yakster 10y ago

I have had some terrible luck with Amazon shipment lately. Keep in mind that it goes both for their in-house shipments as well as UPS and Fedex. On one item, it got to the absurd point of them telling me that they didn't know where the item was. They had to overnight me another one. Of course, the original one showed up 5 days later. Before they can compete on something new, they need to iron out their current systems.

oliwarner 10y ago

Amazon Logistics is awful locally in the UK. I mean it. Terrible. I'm currently waiting for a package "guaranteed" before midday. I've had a couple of emails since then, the last pushing it back to "before 9pm". It's 9.25 now. They've delivered stuff to the wrong place. They've said they knocked and nobody answered (I work from home, wife is on maternity). And their vans are rentals. All in all it feels unprofessional. It makes me questions not only the value of Prime but Amazon as a whole. I've started shopping around a lot more.

massysett 10y ago
Sounds like Lasership in the USA. Non-uniformed people driving the most beat-up, random private vehicles possible, with a "LS" decal slapped on the side. Seems Amazon doesn't want to pay for decent people. They don't even bother to ring the bell when leaving a package on the porch. That said, I'm not sure they are worse than USPS and UPS, both of whom have left packages outside in the rain in the middle of the driveway without ringing the bell.
- Bedon292 10y ago
  I have to say, never had a problem with Lasership. They actually come up to my door, ring the bell, and move on. Never lost a package or anything like I have with FedEx / UPS. And the USPS stopped ringing my door bell a long time ago. Just comes up drops it by the door and leaves. So they seem to be the best in my area, despite them all driving around in their personal vehicles and no uniforms.
- rschuetzler 10y ago
  I haven't had a doorbell ring or knock at the door by UPS in probably 3-4 years. I get that they're too busy to wait for everyone to come to the door, but you'd think they could at least knock.
dx034 10y ago
Works very well for me. It's rental vehicles, but the drivers are much more engaged than other companies. They usually even call me if I'm not home to ask where to leave the package. I guess it's always down to the driver. On average, they won't be better or worse than UPS/Royal Mail/Interlink...

phodo 10y ago

I've been a prime member for a while, and ordering from amazon is part of our regular routine for acquiring stuff. I've never had much of a problem, until recently. And UPS was entirely to blame. They (UPS) forgot the AC on the dock, and it ended up being delayed by a week. When it arrived, there were broken parts in the box. Amazon took responsibility and sent me a new one (with a $50 cash back due to inconvenience). I had them file a complaint w UPS. The replacement unit ended up being late as well... it was sent to the wrong address and signed by the recipient. UPS left the package at the wrong address! Amazon was very apologetic and told me they would escalate the complaint to their shipping logistics dept. I could tell they were super frustrated at the lack of control they had over UPS. So they sent me a _third_ AC unit. This one arrived, but there was water damage in the box. I, for one, am for Amazon owning the full experience and removing UPS from the chain.

gt565k 10y ago
I'd have to agree with you. I've had 2 bad experiences with Amazon orders, and USPS was to blame for both. They put the envelope/package in the wrong mailbox in the apartment complex I live in and marked it as delivered. I've received other people's mail in the past too... Amazon's customer service has been exceptional, they send an overnight replacement with UPS and required a signature. Recently, Amazon opened a pickup location near where I live, and I've been shipping more expensive items there. The pickup process takes less than 15 seconds. Literally, walk in, scan barcode, locker opens up, and I pickup my package. Can't wait for Amazon to own the entire vertical and optimize the living shit out of it.
- imatworkyo 10y ago
  Hmmm this is a human problem at the end of the day. You don't get the wrong mail because of USPS policy. When the mailperson that delivers your mail currently gets fired by USPS and gets hired by Amazon - do you think much will change in that regard??
  - microcolonel 10y ago
    There are policy changes around labelling, IT, or whatever that I'm sure could reduce the error rate for this. Amazon has a direct incentive to, at least for Amazon packages, solve these problems. UPS has an incentive to ignore complaints.

djyaz1200 10y ago

I suspect their goal is to have enough logistics capability that they have pricing leverage over traditional carriers.

hiphopyo 10y ago

Anybody else wishing they would set up shop in the Scandinavian countries so poor people there could earn money off their affiliate program as well?

a_lifters_life 10y ago

You're horrible at this Amazon stick with retail instead.

hakanensari 10y ago

I suppose this way they could start learning when you're (likelier to be) home and tweak delivery times to happen then. Just reading comments here, you can anecdotally see there's a lot of inefficiency caused by courier attempting to deliver when no one's home and/or leaving with a neighbour/on the porch/etc. and things getting lost.

hackermailman 10y ago

Mailman and software developer here. Of course all these problems can be fixed with a simple db that tells the delivery agent upon scanning any customer specifics like no safe dropping, go to rear door, ect. Weird individual access problems like gates or hidden doors could also be entered by agents to keep an up to date personalized delivery schedule. Right now the process is a bunch of cards that get lost and are outdated and take a lot of time to check for every delivery. Agents should be able to see a complete overview of delivery that day, in order of route, and consistent metrics taken to better the service over time. Staffing could get weekly info of inbound parcels for each route and determine staff levels needed as compared to now which is just fly by seat of your pants. Of course CanPost who I work for don't do any of this, don't talk to any employees and make all these decisions far away from the people who have to implement them. The routes they design are ridiculous and nobody follows the official version. It seems trivial to solve since it's just a plaintext database and updates, plus talking to the agents to average time values and build efficient routes but for whatever reasons they don't even try. The DbaaS startup I work for remotely is constantly asking me ways they can improve, nobody at CPC has ever done so. I was surprised when Amazon delivery appeared on the streets and they were run just as poorly as us, assumed they would 'disrupt' delivery instead of carbon copying an already bad service with UPS/Post/DHL ect.

DashRattlesnake 10y ago
> Of course all these problems can be fixed with a simple db that tells the delivery agent upon scanning any customer specifics like no safe dropping, go to rear door, etc. That's a feature that UPS My Choice and FedEx Delivery manager have had for a long time. UPS even lets me permanently divert all deliveries to my address to a nearby UPS store.
- hackermailman 10y ago
  Anecdote, the UPS driver I see everyday claims all sorts of problems with their hand helds giving incorrect info or seizing mid route. They are also all working heavy overtime, min 12hrs a day to finish their routes here. That said they are probably the best out of the usual big delivery companies but that's not saying much since just in this thread they also have consistent problems. Amazon likely hired managers from these companies so they just implemented a carbon copy

hourislate 10y ago

I'm curious whether they could save a substantial amount of money by moving Full Trailers instead of LTL or having UPS/FedEx do it. A full trailer can cost them as much as $1200 from CA to TX where as UPS or FedEx would charge much more. So by distributing between distribution centers they would probably save some money. I also think having planes will greatly reduce the time it takes to bring items from China. ATM it can take 10-14 days on the water via container ship. They could probably load the equivalent of 2-3 40' Containers in a plane and fly it to CA for the same price a cargo company would charge. It's not necessary to replace UPS or FedEx, just the parts that cost Amazon the most money and are easily replaceable.

jxramos 10y ago

If they go that route would anyone have any recourse to like antitrust suits? Any precedent close to something growing all encompassing like this? I'm all for them taking an end to end approach, its like with any third party delegation where quality issues arise, you end up being stuck with the reputation hit.

smilekzs 10y ago

FYI: jd.com (used to be Chinese clone of Amazon) did the same a few years ago.

dstainer 10y ago

One area to keep an eye on with this is the Fulfillment By Amazon (FBA) program. If they do indeed take on UPS/FedEx, the FBA program will now be able to store, sell, fulfill and deliver your product without leaving Amazon.

WheelsAtLarge 10y ago

This is nothing but a win for Amazon. They have themselves as customers plus all the other online retailers. Also, they can better optimize to fit the online business environment with the latest tech. UPS and fedex have to deal with the old ways of doing shipping plus the unions. If they fail, at the very least, they force the other delivery companies to be better competitors. But ultimately this is a loss for the everyday worker. The loss of the unions means the standard of living will fall for those that work in the delivery business. Walmart has always been seen as the enemy because of their never ending fight to lower prices which means lower salaries for their workers. I think Amazon is done a good job in not only lowering workers pay but destroying jobs. Why has Amazon escaped the same criticism? Not only that, but they are admired by many as the future of doing business and in effect employee treatment. What gives?

fthssht 10y ago
It seems to me that Amazon gets a tremendous amount of bad press singing the exact song you just sung. However, I think the analogy is more like Uber drivers for package delivery. A union won't stop a job from becoming obsolete due to technology and society isn't willing to stop the advance of technology. Its probably more advisable to develop a plan to retrain then try to get in a union as a taxi driver or package deliverer.
lmm 10y ago
Removing jobs entirely seems less exploitative than lowering pay, somehow.

lettergram 10y ago

Yeah... Amazon, the delivery service delivered some mason jars for me. They literally dropped them and half were broken. I had a massive box of broken glass. By contrast I've never had an issue with FedEx or UPS (USPS is bad, and so is onTrac).

Zigurd 10y ago

I had a monitor that needed you be delivered on time for a project falsely marked as an attempted delivery by ups. I was persistent and obtained the phone number if the local ups depot. I called them and made it clear that I knew they were bullshiting. The driver was sent out to make the delivery and, thinking i wasn't home, threw the monitor on the ground, stomped it, and drop kicked it onto my front steps. Yay for well designed packaging. The real lesson here is that Amazon's SLA should have given them the positioning data it takes to catch ups in a lie like this. I should not have had to pursue it. Amazon should have been penalizing then by an amount that stings AND having the driver out late.

davidf18 10y ago

I was at a conference in NYC and I was met an AWS person and yesterday I mentioned to him that Amazon was a logistics company with the Amazon Robotics subsidiary running their warehouses and leasing of airplanes for airfreight and how it would compete with UPS. I have had problems with Fedex delivering for Amazon and with Same Day Service in Manhattan twice. Amazon also has these pickup boxes in the local drug store -- they do think of things. A lot of the stores seem to run out of items in NYC and I'm hoping Amazon would run the warehouses/logistics for these stores chains (e.g., CVS, Duane Reed). RE: USPS. I don't like it when they delivery last mile.

macjohnmcc 10y ago

I've had delivery problems when Amazon itself was doing the delivery. My wife and I were both home for the entire day (as usual) and we were expecting a package. About 2pm I got an e-mail saying "there was no answer at the door" and "no safe place to put the package". I was sitting 10 feet from the door. As far as a safe place the entry way to our house is a fully covered 8 foot deep area. The package was not exceptionally big. I called Amazon and said frankly that the driver was lying. He finally sheepishly delivered the package a few hours later. He ran up and dropped off the box then ran back to his car.

tylerruby 10y ago

Links to WSJ should be replaced with a link to Google with the query being the title of the article. That way we can easily navigate to the article without hitting paywall. I can't be the first one to mention this! :)

ihowlatthemoon 10y ago
You aren't. That's why the "web" link below the title exists.

KennyCason 10y ago

It's interesting that the CFO of FedEx claims this is unreasonable. Given that Amazon has at least two major other products (AWS + The core store), it seems that they could potentially operate their delivery/logistics operations at cost and undercut UPS/FedEx. Given that delivery/logistics is UPS/FedEx is their core business, they can't.

dmritard96 10y ago

who is amazon's biggest competitor in the e-commerce space? its a little scary that they seem to have a winner takes all effect and both create their own products, get all data from products sold, invest in companies etc etc. I just worry that they don't have adequare competition to keep them in check...

berntb 10y ago
They are their own worst enemy. It is getting too hard to buy physical stuff from Amazon and not getting fakes. :-( Right now I have a new type of problem: I have waited for a package (in Romania) for a month, which the German DHL won't deliver. I have contacted the seller every week. Amazon has some "must answer in 3 days" rule for sellers -- but seems to accept auto answering emails as an answer! My claim was cancelled because the sellers promised to deliver, now nothing happens when I complain. (DHL has delivered to me before, worked great. And I work from home these weeks.) It is just ridiculous. This seems to be some criminal that found a hole in the Amazon state machine for orders/sellers/delivery/returns/cancels/etc: Send empty packages with bad addresses and never deliver, after 3 months the sale times out. The only problem is that every time this happens, Amazon lose an old customer.
- berntb 10y ago
  The package arrived after I had to call the transport companies myself, sigh.

wvh 10y ago

This might provide a good incentive to the postal infrastructure to improve their prices and service offerings. In lots of European countries the postal system is semi-privatised but still in a state of semi-monopoly. End-user logistics as provided by companies like DHL, PostNord and UPS are trying to get a foothold in the market, but at least here in Northern Europe we're still far from having a free market situation with different delivery options and competitive pricing. Sending packages – especially out of the country, like in the case of Amazon returns – can be prohibitively expensive. If large companies like Amazon would threaten or effectively start to handle their own logistics, it just might force the market to open up a bit more.

generj 10y ago
The problem with having too many package carriers is that the infrastructure is so expensive it's almost a natural monopoly. It's really difficult to have a multitude of companies in the market.

generj 10y ago

I'd be interested to see if any collusion between the duopoly occurs in the next interval. All UPS and FedEx would have to do is put a cap on Amazon's packages for the holiday season at the last second to hobble them.

sunshiney 10y ago

I read this with interest as I live on the edge of a rural town where I am building a business that spurs the use of tech and net in rural areas of my 3 state region. We have fiber access but lag in net commerce skills and tech hubs. I was at the PO recently. Mail here is delivered direct to farms but townies must go to the PO. I was told by the PO Master that any large volume mailings would require the sender to drive some 25 miles to the next PO as she could not handle themm She was annoyed that I had received 7 Amazon boxes. They had filled up the small space in her office and I had to cone get them immedistely. This caused me to begin thinking of the clash between growing rural commerce and an unexpected pest..the Post Office! Amazon may provide a partial solution but still pondering how to completely solve.