19 ms·

Nootropics

413 points by raldu 10y ago

Moshe_Silnorin 10y ago
Gwern's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/gwern https://www.patreon.com/gwern
elevensies 10y ago
Melatonin has made it possible for me to sleep much more consistently which has been a huge help, since I saw Gwern's post on it a while ago.
- throwaway123912 10y ago
  Melatonin has worked wonders for me as well. However it's worth mentioning that the 3mg capsules I bought are WAAAY too strong and cause me to wake up with a dry mouth and a headache after a couple of hours of intense dreaming and nightmares. Instead now I split the caps open and take a tiny fraction of the melatonin every night. It takes me a few weeks to go through a single capsule.
  - elevensies 10y ago
    Interesting, I take 3 or 6 mg per night about an hour before sleep, I've never experienced that but it does make my dreams more vivid and memorable and I wake up from the occasional nightmare as well.
  - aidenn0 10y ago
    Trader Joes sells 500mcg tablets.
    - thatswrong0 10y ago
      Plus they're chewable. Probably the most convenient though a tad expensive.
  - stormbrew 10y ago
    I split the 3mg sublingual tabs into quarters. I often split them again and take part when I go to bed and the other part after reading and getting a bit drowsy. Seems to do some good (N=1 and all that). I definitely think that if you're taking them under the tongue the doses they sell them in are much too high. Probably make more sense if you're swallowing them.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    Melatonin in the us is weakly regulated so its hard to know hoe much, if any, you're getting.
  - RandomInteger4 10y ago
    Interesting how different doses affect different people differently. Melatonin works great for me as well. I take 5mg. Not sure if my dreams are any more vivid than without it, as I've been taking it every night for years. I think I've always had vivid dreams, though I no longer get recurring nightmares (which I had years prior to taking melatonin; not sure when they ended).
- blhack 10y ago
  You should switch to valerian root if you can. It isn't habit forming in the way that melatonin is. edit: since everybody is asking the same question about habit forming. I am just passing on the information that I got from my doctor. She made this suggestion to me, and it was beneficial to me. Once I had started using melatonin, I would have trouble falling asleep without it. Valarian root didn't cause that issue for me.
  - avianbc 10y ago
    I thought that one of the main benefits of melatonin was that it is not habit forming?
  - joshschreuder 10y ago
    Can you elaborate on habit forming? From what I've read it's non-addictive.
  - langseth 10y ago
    Yea, pretty sure you are wrong on melatonin being habit forming. Google says it is not: https://www.google.com/search?q=is+melatonin+habit+forming https://www.google.com/search?q=is+melatonin+habit+forming
  - daveguy 10y ago
    Melatonin is not addictive. You can form a psychological habit with anything, but physical dependence is not an issue.
- daveguy 10y ago
  Melatonin definitely works for me too. I can take 3/4 mg and have an effect. 3mg and I feel groggy in the morning. Of course, melatonin has been well known for decades.
Herodotus38 10y ago
I stopped reading after the grammar of the first two sentences. I cannot parse the second sentence, although I think I get what they are trying to say. Fair or not, I interpret this as a public service announcement against nootropics.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- oh_sigh 10y ago
  Care to try to parse those sentences for us, so we can determine if it is the reader or the writer with the grammar problem.
  - psyc 10y ago
    The problem is very long run-on sentences, with parentheticals, and awkward word omissions.
    - panzagl 10y ago
      Seems like he's trying for that overly formal 18th/19th century style of scientific writing.
      - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
        I find my natural style tends towards such affectations. Perhaps he's just not trying to apply a writing style after the fashion of "I could have written less but I didn't have enough time".
- 6nf 10y ago
  He's leaving out some words that makes it a bit hard to parse: > [This is] A record of nootropics I have tried, with thoughts about which ones worked and did not work for me. > These anecdotes should be considered only as anecdotes, and one’s efforts with nootropics [should be considered] a hobby to put only limited amounts of time into due to the inherent limits of drugs as a force-multiplier ...
gregrata 10y ago
A summary would be awesome - I appreciate the amount of work and details that went into this, but a list of what worked and didn't would be a great start - interested readers could then dive into details
- tonyhb 10y ago
  Reddit actually has an active nootropics community with a wiki for beginners: https://www.reddit.com/r/nootropics/wiki/beginners https://www.reddit.com/r/nootropics/wiki/beginners. The standard stuff is L-Theanine + Caffeine. For cognitive enhancement any of the "racetams" are considered proven, and you branch out into untested army drugs when you take modafinil. I've tried each of these and stick with L-Theanine and Caffeine daily. Piracetam had no visible effect on me. Modafinil got me through 36 to 50 hour work days straight, at crunch time when deadlines were needed for an old job. Work was probably at about 60% of its best at the time – easy to get into the zone but also not quite my best. I know it's not healthy but I was also curious and happy to try it out of personal curiosity. YMMV :)
  - wutbrodo 10y ago
    > you branch out into untested army drugs when you take modafinil. What on earth are you talking about? Modafinil is very much _not_ an "untested army drug". It's pretty well-studied, approved for use by the FDA, and available for sale (with prescription) under multiple names in the US, and by prescription with no other legal restrictions in most other countries. It has a freaking WebMD page[1]! [1] http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-16964/provigil-oral/details http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-16964/provigil-oral/detail...
    - tonyhb 10y ago
      I totally thought it was untested back when I did it, though that was 6 years ago. And one of the few things I read about it in terms of studies was its effects on army pilots during 12+ hour training sessions here: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA533725 http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA533725, hence why I thought it was an army drug. Learned something new today.
empath75 10y ago
Not to generalize but this totally looks like something someone hopped up on amphetamines would write. Get to the point, man.
- RandomInteger4 10y ago
  I think the point was revealed in the first line. "A record of nootropics I have tried, ..." I don't think it's supposed to be looked at as a one shot article or blog post, but rather a collection of notes / anecdotal evidence / experimentation.
cavisne 10y ago
Its concerning to see Modafinil on the same list of "defaults" as caffeine and vitamin D. They are on a different scale when it comes to the effect on your brain. That aside, my anecdotal experience of mod is its basically a waste of time. Sure you stay awake longer but we can all easily procrastinate a day away regardless, it wont make you any more focused or any smarter. If you for some reason need to improve your focus for a period then dexamphetamines are the way to go, of course you should not pop them every day.
- RandomInteger4 10y ago
  If you take a consistent low dose of Adderall at least, there should be nothing wrong with taking it every day and might actually be preferable that way, otherwise you're in for a rollercoaster effect. The longer you're on though, up to a point at least I imagine, assuming the dose is consistent, you will have a greater withdrawal period that will really suck compared to if you only use them recreationally, which I consider to include situations where you take them only when you need them, such as all nighters; that definitely falls under recreational usage.
  - aidenn0 10y ago
    Different drugs affect people differently. I was rendered incapable of driving safely with a moderate dose of Addreall (30mg), and still felt somewhat unsafe with a low dose of Adderall(15mg). The main effect was that I could no longer subconsciously distinguish moving objects from non-moving objects (I had to think "is that car parked or moving" rather than being able to just tell by looking). My weight is 105kg.
    - 0xffff2 10y ago
      Is 30mg really a moderate does? When I had a pers ription for Aderral, 20mg was enough to make me feel like I was going to die.
      - unimpressive 10y ago
blazespin 10y ago
Pretty impressive work. I personally use nicotine gum (as does President Obama, a health nut) as I'm allergic to caffeine. I have used melatonin in the past, though given this I will use it more now. The key I find is to only use them when you have already outlined in a detailed way a significant set of tasks that need to be performed or a particularly critical meeting where you already have a very strong background. For learning, general creative process I don't use them. The biggest problem is managing the physical addiction (ie, you feel very tired) when you're not taking them. Also there is some evidence that nicotine increases incidence of cancer. Not to mention what it does to my blood pressure, though I find constant exercise helps manage that.
- RandomInteger4 10y ago
  I don't know if I'd call President Obama a health nut; maybe Michelle, but not sure about Barack, unless he quit smoking and switched permanently to the gum.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - dajohnson89 10y ago
    Nicotine gum is awful for your teeth and gums, and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that it thins out hair.
    - RandomInteger4 10y ago
      Perhaps, and I wouldn't know from first hand experience trying it myself, but I imagine it is almost guaranteed to be safer than smoking. For reference on that matter, my mother passed away a while back from lung cancer induced by smoking (small cell lung cancer).
      - dajohnson89 10y ago
        Yes nicotene gum is definitely safer than smoking, and also safer than playing russian roulette.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
lhl 10y ago
I see a lot of dense experimental designs on this page - is any of this abstracted into a simple tool/methodology for use for self-testing (I've noticed some big differences when taking Vitamin D (I'm usually deficient), B-Complexes, etc but don't have a great way to isolate/correlate especially against other factors like sleep or travel...
the_cat_kittles 10y ago
personal experience with add meds and the like: there is no such thing as a free lunch. could be different for other people, but i would always pay the piper in the end.
fowlerpower 10y ago
Does anyone else think this shit is totally bat shit crazy? I may be of the minority here but I am definitely not the minority in the real world. If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy and never take any type of drug for any reason unless you are sick.
- forgetsusername 10y ago
  >If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy Maybe we do. But if you really care about health, why stop there?
- nugga 10y ago
  Why? There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with using external catalysts to alter your brain function. We are biological computers and we can alter our programming for better or worse.
  - collyw 10y ago
    We are not biological computers.
    - majewsky 10y ago
      We may be biological computers, but that position still advises against nootropics. Or would you install some random patch on your computer just because someone else said that it worked on their computer with probably vastly different software?
- RachelF 10y ago
  Most of us take drugs like caffeine and alcohol pretty often. The person who made this site has been willing to test, meticulously document and analyse his results. He's pretty informed as to the side-effects, so no, I don't think he's "bat shit crazy", he's doing us a service.
  - daveguy 10y ago
partycoder 10y ago
Did he perform all these experiments on himself? It's hard to conduct these experiments with a population of 1 and no control group.
- flukus 10y ago
  Actually it's incredibly easy, just not statistically relevant.
  - partycoder 10y ago
    Well, remember it requires prescription only medication.
ared38 10y ago
Shoutout to examine.com which aggregates and assesses research studies for nootropics and other supplements
- AstralStorm 10y ago
  Of which there are surprisingly few. Big pharma has trouble marketing those, typical attempts include Alzheimer, stroke management, ADD and narcolepsy, which are pretty hard to run a trial for. These are good enough to establish safety at least. There are even fewer in people without disorders.
jgalvez 10y ago
No mention of methylene blue? :O It's the best one! Below is a post I wrote on a Ray Peat Facebook group that I think fellow coders and behind-a-desk workers might fight interesting. I've been a serious procrastinator and slacker, and it was a long journey of trial and error in getting diet and lifestyle right. I'm thankful to the amazing work of Dr. Ray Peat, which isn't mentioned enough around Hacker News. ⁂ Some comments on maintaining high energy, productivity, creativity and noticeably faster rational thinking (System 2 in the dual process theory) in my day job as a programmer. ◈ Basics first. That is, salt, sugar, calcium, magnesium, A, D, C. If you're lacking any of these you'll have energy problems very quickly. Buy magnesium chloride, add eggshell powder to your mashed potatoes. Get 1g vitamin C pills. Take 5 times as much vitamin A as you take D. ◈ Meditation daily. The main goal of daily meditation for me is to reinforce a stoic mentality, mainly the principle of being indifferent to the external. This is paramount in learning to deal with all kinds of stress. A simple line of thinking that will slowly help you deal with psychological stress better. ◈ Coconut oil-fried eggs. The generally accepted notion around here is that an extremely low fat diet is best for metabolism, i.e., oxidative metabolism is about 15x times more efficient (paraphrasing RP). But saturated fats are extremely good for our brains, because they are used together with cholesterol to generate several hormones (including the wonderful progesterone and pregnenolone). So whatever your brain condition is, if you fry 5 eggs in about 3 tbsp coconut oil, you'll equip your body with the elements it needs to restore its full capacity. http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2010/12/28/high-cholesterol-and-metabolism/ http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2010/12/28/high-cholesterol... http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/cholesterol-longevity.shtml http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/cholesterol-longevity.s... ◈ Aspirin and K2. I was for sometime doing 4g aspirin a day, but I noticed that much isn't necessary. Just 1-2g a day along with 1mg K2 is enough. http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aspirin-brain-cancer.shtml http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aspirin-brain-cancer.shtml http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/04/22/ray-peat-phd-on-aspirin/ http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/04/22/ray-peat-phd-on-... ◈ Fruits, Lysine, Juices, Niacinamide, Methylene Blue, Coffee. I mention all of these in a single sentence because I use them in sequence, hourly, to keep a long streak of productive hours. I drink some fruit juice (orange, grape, even serotonin-ladden pineapple) with 10gtt 2.3% methylene blue, then eat some fruits (I keep sliced guavas and papayas in the frigde) with 100mg niacinamide and 500mg lysine (serotonin antagonist), followed by 100ml sugared coffee. Rinse. Repeat. I think in total I have been consuming nearly 60gtt 2.3% methylene blue and 1.5L coffee in a stretch of programming work, all with maximum focus, energy, no tiredness (taking very short breaks). https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/methylene-blue-mb-is-a-potent-aromatase-inhibitor.6736/ https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/methylene-blue-mb... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgeZJoir70w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgeZJoir70w https://selfhacked.com/2013/08/25/methylene-blue-the-cheapest-cognitive-enhancer/ https://selfhacked.com/2013/08/25/methylene-blue-the-cheapes... Main benefit of MB is its effect as a NO and estrogen antagonist, which improves thyroid function and overall energy levels. Stay away from fish oil, polyunsaturated fats are extremely toxic yet you don't see it in the news -- that's because they're everywhere, it's a huge industry and it's not going to go away easily. But PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids) are the #1 source of all kinds of metabolic disorders, including brain fog. Also avoid things that raise serotonin -- serotonin, contrary to decades of misinformation, does not make us happy -- its role in happines is only peripheral. High serotonin in reality is associated with aging, depression and anger. You should aim for high dopamine and low serotonin, in general -- that's why I take a lysine supplement, it competes with serotonin for entry in the brain. https://pranarupa.wordpress.com/2012/12/25/pufa-because-this-wouldnt-be-a-ray-peat-themed-blog-without-at-least-one-post-on-pufa/ https://pranarupa.wordpress.com/2012/12/25/pufa-because-this... https://pranarupa.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/serotonin-inflammation-depression-mitochondria-energy-and-mad-love-2/ https://pranarupa.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/serotonin-inflamm... Happy reading.
voxic11 10y ago
He hasn't tried Semax. I find it to be amazing for concentration and learning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semax
perfectfire 10y ago
I've been on (legally, with a prescription) Modafinil (4 straight days of nausea), Armodafinil (made me really sleepy), Dextroamphetamine (3 times including right now), Adderall (constantly felt sick), Adderall XR (even worse than Adderall), Ritalin SR (about the same as Adderall), Bupropion twice (Wellbutrin, no noticeable effect). Pretty much everything other than Dextroamphetamine either made me feel sick or strangely for Nuvigil made me sleepy. All of them, except Wellbutrin, Provigil (which I didn't take long enough to notice it's primary effect) and Nuvigil could keep me awake. At least at first. The first few times you take it or you go up a dose it feels pretty amazing. For some reason I want to say it feels like your head is full of light, but don't even know what that's supposed to mean. There's some extra energy and a little more motivation, but if you're looking for a pill that will turn you into a super-productive maniac look elsewhere. It mostly just keeps you awake and what little extra motivation you gain will be offset in part or in full by being more more easily distracted. I've never noticed any sort of increase in cognitive function. What I have noticed is that I get exhausted from physical effort very quickly. When I take it long enough I start to pick off all of my facial hair (there was maybe a year where I never shaved, but had no facial hair), and lose a lot a weight quickly. Recently I dropped around 40 pounds in a few months.
- codezero 10y ago
  :( This sucks. I tried a lot of different combos of medications and was lucky to have a doctor that let me very clearly experiment with what worked. My dose: Adderall XR 30mg + Adderal 10mg (around 2pm) I tried Adderall, Vyvanse, Ritalin and Concerta (long acting Ritalin) Ritalin had the best cognitive effects but the worst side effects. I slept, but I didn't really sleep. Over time, I developed terrible atrophy as well as a deep sense of apathy. Adderall has been my rock. Straight Adderall is "bad" for me – the side effects are very strong. Any nervous tick I have is amplified very intensely. I play with my hair, I fidget, I bite my lips etc... Adderall XR is very stable, but not very strong. So I take it, and sometimes I supplement with direct Adderall. The most functional combo I ever had was accidental, it was Concerta + Adderall (not XR) but my doctor said it was bad/questionable to mix the two kinds of stimulant (ritalin/adderall) so I abandoned it. It really is about finding the sweet spot between cognitive benefits and side effects. I still have some side effects, but my invariant is sleep. If a medication fucks with my sleep, I don't take it. Adderall, if anything, helps me sleep better, so it works quite well for me. A solution to picking off facial hair, if that's really the problem, is to shave it all off. Same with hair on your head. If then, you are doing great, then problem solved. Also, it doesn't hurt to get a barrage of tests done, maybe you have more stuff going on than just ADHD, and other medications may have a more significant effect on your wellbeing.
pmoriarty 10y ago
"Limitless" is a fun movie to watch for anyone interested in this subject.
- unimpressive 10y ago
  There is also the even older sci fi story "Understand" by Ted Chiang. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understand_(story) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understand_(story) https://web.archive.org/web/20140527121332/http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/under.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20140527121332/http://www.infini... https://archive.org/details/TedChiangUnderstand https://archive.org/details/TedChiangUnderstand
  - pmoriarty 10y ago
    There's an older one than that, whose name escapes me for the moment, but it features a man eating a sandwich that makes him smarter. There's also the classic "Flowers for Algernon" from 1958.[1] I'd strongly recommend reading the short story (and avoid the book, unless you want to witness the ruining of a great story that was best left alone). [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_algernon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_algernon
notapirate 10y ago
Reading gwern for hours is mind numbingly amazing in and of itself. Bonus points to anyone who knows his real name, fan club located in #gwern on freenode especially after the darknet markets research. Is this an alternate reality where HN is actually Slashdot circa 2008, I can't tell right now.
- DiabloD3 10y ago
  Honestly, I agree with the Slashdot comparison, except earlier in it's lifetime. However, that means HN is going to fall apart in about 2 years and turn into a toxic shithole. Fuck.
  - nilved 10y ago
    lobste.rs
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  I'll look that up on my Beowulf cluster of Natalie Portman's hot grits. /\/.
notapirate 10y ago
Reading gwern for hours is mind numbingly amazing in and of itself. Bonus points to anyone who knows his real name, fan club located in #gwern on freenode especially after the darknet markets research. Is this an alternate reality where HN is actually Slashdot circa 2008, I can't tell right now.
HalfwayToDice 10y ago
The best nootropic is getting a good nights sleep. It takes effort! Preparing for bed early and disciplining yourself to put the light out is not easy. Not nearly as easy as popping a pill. But it's so much more effective than any drug listed here. And for a safe and provable quick cognitive boost, take some caffeine, preferable green tea with theanine.
- lisper 10y ago
  This. And use Flux. Blue light after 9PM is the enemy.
  - marak830 10y ago
    Someone mentioned this on HN a few months this ago, ended up grabbing twilight(Android - I like reading in bed). It has made a noticeable difference!
  - kristofferR 10y ago
    Try getting the Uvex S1933X glasses. They work for everything in your view (obviously) without messing around with software, and probably works better too. I have them, and they're amazing. I have pretty cool LED lighting in my apartment and can make my whole living room any color I want at night. If I set in to pure blue and put on the glasses, it's like being in pitch blackness (except a couple of items glow brightly). It's not like looking at things with an orange tint at all, even though the glasses are obviously orange. That being said - the benefits I get by using them is amazing. It's weird how much of a difference it can make, I get tired quickly after putting them on in the evening. If I forget to put them on I usually end up staying up too late, getting too little sleep and often ruining the next day. Personally I find it way more effective than flux. By the way - blue light isn't just a negative thing, but also a huge positive. In the morning I use a Philips goLITE BLU HF3332, and it really improves both my energy and mood quickly after just a few minutes of usage. Those two simple items, a blue light and a pair of blue-blocking glasses, have improved my life significantly. Try it out (especially the glasses, it's just $9).
  - driverdan 10y ago
pmoriarty 10y ago
Self-experimentation has a long history in medicine. An interesting book on it is "Who Goes First?" https://www.amazon.com/Who-Goes-First-Self-Experimentation-Medicine/dp/0520212819 https://www.amazon.com/Who-Goes-First-Self-Experimentation-M...
mentos 10y ago
Funny timing of this article. Just 3 days ago I was sitting at my desk and had this awesome calm come over me, something I've only ever experienced at the end of a long day when a hangover finally breaks. I looked at the ingredients in the two "Just Chill" drinks on my desk and noticed each had 150Mg of "Suntheanine" which was one of the listed nootropics in this article.
- DiabloD3 10y ago
  Suntheanine is a brand of synthetic L-theanine. It is considered the highest grade L-theanine you can get, but not sufficiently better enough than the others to pay extra for it. 300mg of L-theanine is equivalent to about 12 to 38 cups of tea (tea naturally has a wide range of L-theanine content, depending on the tea and how it is processed). Up to 1,200mg daily is considered safe, however, like with all drugs, you should only take as much as needed to get the effect you want.
pw 10y ago
I've been on modafinil for a number of years now (prescribed by a doctor in relation to a real medical condition). It is indeed a very interesting drug. There's a reason it's the brand names are Provigil and Nivigil. "Vigilant" is indeed a very good way to describe how it makes you feel. Like caffeine but cleaner (no jitters, etc.). The downside is that you build up tolerance pretty quickly and that feeling dissipates. At this point, I really only notice if I don't take it (as you might with your daily cup of coffee). I honestly don't know if I continue to get on-going benefit, but I'm don't have any side effects, it may have some neuroprotective effects and getting off would be hard.
- arcadeparade 10y ago
  I took Modafinil for a year after reading Gwern, 100mg twice a week on average. It relieves a lot of anxiety for me and also acted as a great appetite suppresant, but I also worry it has caused me some cognitive decline. I feel like a bit of a zombie sometimes, kind of dead emotionally, not talking as much, feeling generally dumber. Can't say for sure as I've had a lot of stress in the last few months too, but people should be very careful with these things.
  - chillingeffect 10y ago
    In my experiments with noots my technical cognition didn't shoot up like i was hoping.... But my emotional intelligence did. In many cases for me, similar to yours, I realized the smartest thing in many situations for me was simply to keep quiet! It gave me a neutral place where I could validate peoples' emotions or listen without saying dumb things.
yarou 10y ago
As I've said in other places, the discussion of nootropics used to be a scientific discussion of cognitive enhancers by sober, psychologically healthy people. But as of late, it's degenerated into shady grey market talk of legal highs, tainting the discussion. In particular, DO NOT use phenibut for long periods of time. The withdrawal can be potentially life-threatening, including horrible seizures that paramedics may not even be able to deal with because it's not a traditional GABA agonist. Regardless of whatever huckster or snake oil salesman tries to tell you, this is probably one of the most dangerous drugs that's marketed as a nootropic, but is really a recreational drug. The best nootropic stack is a good night sleep, healthy diet and exercise, and reading a book that teaches you something new.
- udkl 10y ago
  and reading a book that teaches you something new. I can attest to this. I've noticed I sleep MUCH better when I watch the next episode of "The Mechanical Universe" on my phone in my bed right before I sleep.
bemmu 10y ago
I remember there was a blog post where they polled hundreds of people about nootropics they tried and then it had a list of the ones which had the highest self-reported subjective impact. I've been trying to find it but can't, anyone got a link?
- gary_bernhardt 10y ago
  You're probably thinking of Scott Alexander's nootropics survey. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/03/01/2016-nootropics-survey-results/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/03/01/2016-nootropics-survey-...
  - bemmu 10y ago
    That's the one, thank you.
atmosx 10y ago
offtopic: Does anyone see a web add on top of the article? I'm trying to understand if Chrome is infected. Chrome and Safari both display the add while FF doesn't display the add.
- eth0up 10y ago
  Just tried it in Chromium, see a "quit Smoking" ad. Nothing in FF.
  - atmosx 10y ago
    thanks, then it's not just me.
throwaway__123 10y ago
Zoloft I am afraid of sounding like a shill, but the fact is I'm 30 engineer, who has been trying to feel better my whole life through experiments with: ketamine, CBD, various nutrients, various dietary changes, exercise, being more social, meditation. None of them made lasting improvement like sertraline has, I wish I had been open-minded enough to try it years ago. In retrospect, maybe it was ridiculous to try to find happiness with all methods other than the ones there are best medical evidence for... I guess I was afraid that somehow I'd be conceding there was something "wrong" with me (which is wonk). I was wondering why nobody had ever mentioned this before, and I realized people who use prescription medications are probably afraid to admit it. So I'm just putting out my sincere recommendation out there, as I wish somehow had done for me.
- chillacy 10y ago
  I'd like to offer a story of caution, and I do so with some hesitation because it sounds like it's been good for you so far. A friend of mine lost his life after committing suicide a month after starting Zoloft. His last messages to me were a discussion of what serotonin syndrome was like. He was excited and curious as always, which after reading online is common. I know I shouldn't blame the drug since he was depressed before... but it sucks to lose someone when it seems like their life was on the upward climb. Anyways, stay safe and be careful.
  - abrichr 10y ago
    This is a well documented reaction to the beginning of treatment for depression. Essentially the reason is that before they started treatment, they had no motivation to do anything. After they start the treatment, but before they've waited long enough to realize the benefits, they have enough motivation to end their lives.
    - gf263 10y ago
      Wow. That sounds like a sick joke.
wonkaWonka 10y ago
...if caffeine were a new drug, I wonder what Schedule it would be in and if people might be even more leery of it than modafinil. ... So I eventually got around to ordering another thing of nicotine gum... A second dose was similar, and the third dose was at 10 PM before playing Ninja Gaiden II seemed to stop the usual exhaustion I feel after playing through a level or so. Okay, I'm no longer part of the gwern fanclub. I could pick apart other aspects of this article, but I'll refrain, since it's not without a modicum of practical utility. Yes, he writes very lengthy, detailed articles. Lovely. But they are anecdotes. And artisanal anecdotes at best. To summarize gwern: A layman tries some stuff that is innately accessible to any layman, and writes haughtily aloof essays.
- 6nf 10y ago
  The article literally states that it is only anecdotal in the very first paragraph.
  - wonkaWonka 10y ago
    In what way should that change my reaction? What's your reason for believing it should? I'm asking these questions rhetorically.
dandare 10y ago
How is this compilation of anecdotal evidence even a thing on HN? I performed well on the Cambridge mental rotations test. An anecdote, of course, and it may be due to the vitamin D I simultaneously started. Or another day, I was slumped under apathy after a promising start to the day; a dose of fish & coconut oil, and 1 last vitamin D, and I was back to feeling chipper and optimist.
hasbroslasher 10y ago
So you're telling me you alter your biochemistry to become more productive without a care for how it affects your overall (mostly mental) health? Hell, I started smoking cigarettes at 16, which I rank near the top of my worst decisions ever, despite the fact that it helped me hack my brain chemistry as I powered through numerous difficult math and CS classes with top scores. As a result, I spent years thrashing, kicking the insane habit and returning to baseline healthiness. To me, the entire idea of performance-enhancing chemicals is the essence of Moloch (http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/) - the supposed optimization that we choose to "gain an edge" and end up worse off than if everyone had just been a bit more cynical and abstained. To what ends? Eventually this kind of thing ends up costing you $50 a month and keeping you on par with everyone else in the office (who also happen to brain-chemistry-hack), side-effects be damned. Luckily, I can fall back on my experience and relative skill at programming. Many cannot - as a late-aughts college student and "yuppie", I saw "the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness" induced by incessant Adderall use in a futile attempt to either "keep up" or "get ahead". To what ends? Some sped their way through upper-levels or toiled through back-breaking entry level jobs only to develop near psychosis, emotional numbness, apathy, and a resume piece that I too gained with considerably less strife. Don't get me wrong, I drink a cup of coffee (or two) in the mornings to get going, but it's usually an break from my workday, not an essential part of it. More than that, it's enjoyable - added focus and clarity be damned. Silly as it may sound, I've even seen coffee become a problem for the hopelessly driven and chronically sleep-deprived - reducing them to diarrhea-ridden, jittery maniacs! Maybe the TL;DR here is: sleep more, bike hard, and have some fun struggling instead of constantly grinding for carrots on sticks. It is true, after all, that many people (men, in particular) say their greatest regret was working so hard - https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-of-the-dying https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-fiv...
- bambax 10y ago
  Very well said, this should be at the top of the thread!! ;-)
- princeb 10y ago
  > that many people (men, in particular) say their greatest regret was working so hard i think many people also regret not working harder.
hagendat 10y ago
Impressive and very detailed work. Thank you
delegate 10y ago
I've experimented with nootropics about 10 years ago. I was on a regimen of Piracetam, Hydergine and several others, the names of which I don't remember now, plus the usual vitamins, fish oil, etc. I did the nootropics for about 2 months or so. Short term I've felt improvement to my memory, my thinking has changed, I had more mental energy and sharpness. However, it also changed my personality and the way I was seeing other people, which resulted in me gathering the courage to separate from my wife. In retrospect, this was a very good move for both of us, but at that time it wasn't that peachy. I've stopped taking those nootropics because I didn't like the robot that I've become. However I still like the idea of chemically tuning your consciousness. 10-15 micrograms of LSD is the solution for me, because it opens me up emotionally, increases enjoyment of music and art, while also allowing me to tackle complexity with ease.
xarope 10y ago
I sleep like a babe most of the time (in my late 40's). I attribute this to three main factors: - little/no caffeine everyday (I do love chocolate, but I don't eat it everyday) - exercise, both strength and conditioning (not just HIIT, but also LSD) - and importantly, ability to mentally box up and put aside highly stressful or critical issues (I mull over them and rigorously tear them apart, then decide on the first step - how to eat an elephant? one small bite at a time. If my subconscious then processes it further, all the better the next morning after a good night's sleep).
- swah 10y ago
  Point 3 is the hardest for me - I never stopping worrying about personal things at work, and work related stuff at home..
ilitirit 10y ago
I maintain that much of this still comes down to the individual. I don't about anyone else's experiences, but Modafinil seems to have a positive effect on me in terms of the way I work. I use it maybe once a week if I feel I need to focus. Placebo? Who knows. Same effect as living a healthy lifestyle? Probably not, but then again I've never tested it. Does it have the same effect on everyone I know? Some say yes, others say it does nothing for them. But that's not strange at all. Some people just have different experiences with different things.
Angostura 10y ago
My sleep problems were cured entirely by listening to BBC radio podcasts in bed. I only ever get in about 10 minutes before I'm off.
thaw13579 10y ago
I found the writing style and organization made it hard to get anything out of this, but maybe it is just a "laboratory" notebook?
dharmatech 10y ago
Book: "Why Isn't My Brain Working?" by Datis Kharrazian Good introduction to general brain health.
Galaxeblaffer 10y ago
Wow.. This dude.. I've tested a couple of the mentioned drugs myself and thought i'd chip in with my results and learnings Modafinil/Armodafinil Definitely works and the side effects are neglectable. It's much as he describes it but im not sure why he can't feel it some of the time as the effect on me is really strong, especially with armodafinil which was almost too much to be hanging around other people :) You feel very awake like a mild cocaine high but have an easy time focusing on the task you are doing, i can definitely recommend it for all nighters and situations where you have to get something out the door ! Melatonin I've experienced quite a bit with this, since i have really really hard time falling asleep. It's actually a huge issue for me. i've found that "microdosing" works even better than taking the "normal dose" of 2-3mg. I found a supplier in the Netherlands who sells 300ug pills and they have worked wonders for me ! works just as well as the stronger dose but it seems that the lower dose makes you sleep better. Just my 2 cents :)
- imagist 10y ago
  > i've found that "microdosing" works even better than taking the "normal dose" of 2-3mg. I found a supplier in the Netherlands who sells 300ug pills and they have worked wonders for me ! works just as well as the stronger dose but it seems that the lower dose makes you sleep better. You're not alone in this; in fact, I think it's pretty widely accepted among melatonin users that "<1mg doses work better" is just fact. The 2-3 mg dosage contained by most available supplements seems to be motivated by a misguided belief that more melatonin is more effective, in opposition to all the evidence that I've seen.
- zebraflask 10y ago
  Agreed on the smaller doses of melatonin. A full tablet (5 or 10mg) tends to have the opposite effect and make me even wider awake after an hour or so of sleepiness. Someone told me once that most tablets are dosed too strong simply because it's an inexpensive supplement, and in the manufacturing process, it's cheaper to use the production templates used for other supplements that are dosed in higher amounts.
  - Obi_Juan_Kenobi 10y ago
bbctol 10y ago
There is a huge, huge placebo effect when it comes to cognitive enhancement, and while I understand that this is intended as a series of anecdotes, it still seems that the author doesn't fully understand this. Most notably, for his attempts at blinding himself, he doesn't seem to have measured any actual cognitive improvement, just whether or not he could successfully distinguish drug and placebo. This is a large misunderstanding of experimental design and the placebo effect; most of these drugs definitely do cause physiological effects that can be detected, and the great worry with respect to Adderall etc. effectiveness is that people confuse rapid heartrate and quickly focusing vision with increased mental ability, without actually improving much.
- computerphage 10y ago
  I think Gwern understands many of the limits of his experimental design. He's has written extensively on a wide variety of statistical and scientific topics. Here's an example related to placebo that's linked to from his blog. http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/689936-My-Paper-quot-Noopept-amp-The-Placebo-Effect-quot?p=11910708&viewfull=1#post11910708 http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/689936-My-Paper-quot-Noo... See also: https://www.gwern.net/Statistical%20notes https://www.gwern.net/Statistical%20notes I'm not saying he's a perfect researcher, but give him some credit instead of assuming he doesn't understand what he's talking about.
  - argonaut 10y ago
    That would be even worse - he knows the limits of the designs and chooses to ignore them anyways and publish anecdata.
rubber_duck 10y ago
A shame no info on testosterone - that's the one I'm most interested in both from physical and psychological perspective, I know a few people who used it but they are in physical/service jobs, I wonder how it would affect programming productivity. Any throwaways here willing to share their experiences ?
- steroids_ 10y ago
  I have been self prescribing testosterone for 2 years. My levels were 250 ng/dl, at 20 years old. No Dr. would prescribe due to my age, but I felt, and looked like crap. Testosterone has been life changing. The amount of focus and drive I get running high normal levels is insane. The only time problems crop up that cause issues at work, is when estrogen gets out of line. Estrogen that is out of range, high or low, causes severe issues. I only have issues when running supra-physiological doses of testosterone though. For more info, check out /r/steroids[0]. Fantastic wiki with tons of info on running safe cycles, or long term usage. [0] www.reddit.com/r/steroids
- mudd343 10y ago
  I've also been self-prescribing testosterone for years, dosage ranging from 200mg/week to 3,000mg/week. I find the sweet spot to be around 200mg-500mg/week. Anything higher makes me lethargic, at 3000mg/week I would sleep 15 hours and get almost nothing done, of course at 3000mg the physical results were dramatic. I could sit on my ass and eat a gallon of ice cream all day and still lose body fat. In my experience negative effects are most prominent when there is fluctuations of hormone levels, such as when changing the dosage dramatically. Of course it isn't a magic drug, the effects are slow and gradual. How it will affect programming productivity, I would say is subjective, but it will give you an overall better sense of well being.
Question1101 10y ago
Can you just get the nutrition supplements from the drug store or are those all no good? I want to supplement magnesium since I am sure I am not getting enough.
- cyrusc 10y ago
  Yes most of these can be found in basic drug stores or health food stores, especially magnesium supplements or natural supplements such as ashwagandha. However, you won't find any finils or racetams except online.
edem 10y ago
This website is broken on my mobile (Sony Z3). I can only see a tiny column of text on the left.
Uptrenda 10y ago
Right now, there are people in the nootropic community who are using experimental compounds that haven't yet passed clinical trials and in some cases have no prior history of human use at all. A large portion of the data used by communities like this (even "self-experimenters") -- use cargo cult pseudo-science to justify their drug use -- something that can go horribly wrong in inexperienced hands. The majority of these people aren't even testing their compounds. They take them blindly or rely on the reputation of other people to tell them that its safe - mostly because they're ignorant, lazy, cheap, impatient or some combination thereof. They also have very little understanding of pharmacology or basic science, and I've seen first hand accounts from drug enthusiasts who go on to describe how they can "feel" the actions at various receptors in their brains based on something they've poorly understood from reading Wikipedia for 5 minutes (which is just complete nonsense.) And what's worse, is that there’s no easy way for the average person to tell what information is good since so much of the Internet is written to seem authoritative. Suppose I Google a question and find a well-written blog post on serotonin interactions between various drugs that answers my question. Am I really going to know that the article is inaccurate, bias, or incomplete? Or am I going to walk away feeling like I've learned something, because I hate to say it but -- that's largely what the web is these days. None of the real information is on the surface because that would be far too boring for the average reader and boring content doesn't sell. Now combine this with drug use and you have a toxic mix of ignorance that can literally kill people. I could go on about this subject but I won't rant any more. Just keep in mind that a lot of what’s written about nootropics (and other drugs) is no where near as clean or as simple as the Internet makes it seem, and that most people aren't even in a position to use caffeine therapeutically - let alone safely negotiate complex, poorly understood, and potentially unknown compounds they bought from the Internet (so try not to take Gwern at face value.)
- JamesBarney 10y ago
  While individuals that are ignorant, lazy, cheap, and impatient exist in all communities, Gwern(the author) does not possess any of those qualities. He is probably one of the least lazy, ignorant, and impatient people I have read online.(I didn't mention cheap because his writing doesn't give me any illumination into his spending habits)
dominotw 10y ago
play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
joelmeckert 10y ago
I used a stack this summer, noopept, l-theanine, aceytl-l-carnitine (alcar), caffeine, taurine, huperzine-a, l-tyrosine, modafinil, DHEA. I did a year's worth of work in a month and a half. . . My employer benefited, became proficient in PowerShell in two weeks with little coding experience, worked 16 hour days (it was that busy), but lost out on life, although they offered me a development position after the project. Dropped out of road biking as I wasn't eating enough to do group rides, dropped 15 pounds in a month and a half (which isn't a terrible outcome). At the end of the day, my employer could care less about the hours and outcomes of the project, it was a total waste of time. Stay normal, have good relationships in life, routine, exercise, diet. It didn't result in any net happiness gains, analytical mind took over and I became good at doing things for other people, but not living.
carbonatedmilk 10y ago
My takeaway from this article: Ingesting 38 different purported nootropics may cause you to write super long rambling blog posts and inadvisably apply statistics to poorly designed experiments.

413 points by raldu 10y ago

Gwern's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/gwern https://www.patreon.com/gwern

Melatonin has made it possible for me to sleep much more consistently which has been a huge help, since I saw Gwern's post on it a while ago.

throwaway123912 10y ago
Melatonin has worked wonders for me as well. However it's worth mentioning that the 3mg capsules I bought are WAAAY too strong and cause me to wake up with a dry mouth and a headache after a couple of hours of intense dreaming and nightmares. Instead now I split the caps open and take a tiny fraction of the melatonin every night. It takes me a few weeks to go through a single capsule.
- elevensies 10y ago
  Interesting, I take 3 or 6 mg per night about an hour before sleep, I've never experienced that but it does make my dreams more vivid and memorable and I wake up from the occasional nightmare as well.
- aidenn0 10y ago
  Trader Joes sells 500mcg tablets.
  - thatswrong0 10y ago
    Plus they're chewable. Probably the most convenient though a tad expensive.
- stormbrew 10y ago
  I split the 3mg sublingual tabs into quarters. I often split them again and take part when I go to bed and the other part after reading and getting a bit drowsy. Seems to do some good (N=1 and all that). I definitely think that if you're taking them under the tongue the doses they sell them in are much too high. Probably make more sense if you're swallowing them.
- DanBC 10y ago
  Melatonin in the us is weakly regulated so its hard to know hoe much, if any, you're getting.
- RandomInteger4 10y ago
  Interesting how different doses affect different people differently. Melatonin works great for me as well. I take 5mg. Not sure if my dreams are any more vivid than without it, as I've been taking it every night for years. I think I've always had vivid dreams, though I no longer get recurring nightmares (which I had years prior to taking melatonin; not sure when they ended).
blhack 10y ago
You should switch to valerian root if you can. It isn't habit forming in the way that melatonin is. edit: since everybody is asking the same question about habit forming. I am just passing on the information that I got from my doctor. She made this suggestion to me, and it was beneficial to me. Once I had started using melatonin, I would have trouble falling asleep without it. Valarian root didn't cause that issue for me.
- avianbc 10y ago
  I thought that one of the main benefits of melatonin was that it is not habit forming?
- joshschreuder 10y ago
  Can you elaborate on habit forming? From what I've read it's non-addictive.
- langseth 10y ago
  Yea, pretty sure you are wrong on melatonin being habit forming. Google says it is not: https://www.google.com/search?q=is+melatonin+habit+forming https://www.google.com/search?q=is+melatonin+habit+forming
- daveguy 10y ago
  Melatonin is not addictive. You can form a psychological habit with anything, but physical dependence is not an issue.
daveguy 10y ago
Melatonin definitely works for me too. I can take 3/4 mg and have an effect. 3mg and I feel groggy in the morning. Of course, melatonin has been well known for decades.

Herodotus38 10y ago

I stopped reading after the grammar of the first two sentences. I cannot parse the second sentence, although I think I get what they are trying to say. Fair or not, I interpret this as a public service announcement against nootropics.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
oh_sigh 10y ago
Care to try to parse those sentences for us, so we can determine if it is the reader or the writer with the grammar problem.
- psyc 10y ago
  The problem is very long run-on sentences, with parentheticals, and awkward word omissions.
  - panzagl 10y ago
    Seems like he's trying for that overly formal 18th/19th century style of scientific writing.
    - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
      I find my natural style tends towards such affectations. Perhaps he's just not trying to apply a writing style after the fashion of "I could have written less but I didn't have enough time".
6nf 10y ago
He's leaving out some words that makes it a bit hard to parse: > [This is] A record of nootropics I have tried, with thoughts about which ones worked and did not work for me. > These anecdotes should be considered only as anecdotes, and one’s efforts with nootropics [should be considered] a hobby to put only limited amounts of time into due to the inherent limits of drugs as a force-multiplier ...

gregrata 10y ago

A summary would be awesome - I appreciate the amount of work and details that went into this, but a list of what worked and didn't would be a great start - interested readers could then dive into details

tonyhb 10y ago
Reddit actually has an active nootropics community with a wiki for beginners: https://www.reddit.com/r/nootropics/wiki/beginners https://www.reddit.com/r/nootropics/wiki/beginners. The standard stuff is L-Theanine + Caffeine. For cognitive enhancement any of the "racetams" are considered proven, and you branch out into untested army drugs when you take modafinil. I've tried each of these and stick with L-Theanine and Caffeine daily. Piracetam had no visible effect on me. Modafinil got me through 36 to 50 hour work days straight, at crunch time when deadlines were needed for an old job. Work was probably at about 60% of its best at the time – easy to get into the zone but also not quite my best. I know it's not healthy but I was also curious and happy to try it out of personal curiosity. YMMV :)
- wutbrodo 10y ago
  > you branch out into untested army drugs when you take modafinil. What on earth are you talking about? Modafinil is very much _not_ an "untested army drug". It's pretty well-studied, approved for use by the FDA, and available for sale (with prescription) under multiple names in the US, and by prescription with no other legal restrictions in most other countries. It has a freaking WebMD page[1]! [1] http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-16964/provigil-oral/details http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-16964/provigil-oral/detail...
  - tonyhb 10y ago
    I totally thought it was untested back when I did it, though that was 6 years ago. And one of the few things I read about it in terms of studies was its effects on army pilots during 12+ hour training sessions here: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA533725 http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA533725, hence why I thought it was an army drug. Learned something new today.

empath75 10y ago

Not to generalize but this totally looks like something someone hopped up on amphetamines would write. Get to the point, man.

RandomInteger4 10y ago
I think the point was revealed in the first line. "A record of nootropics I have tried, ..." I don't think it's supposed to be looked at as a one shot article or blog post, but rather a collection of notes / anecdotal evidence / experimentation.

cavisne 10y ago

Its concerning to see Modafinil on the same list of "defaults" as caffeine and vitamin D. They are on a different scale when it comes to the effect on your brain. That aside, my anecdotal experience of mod is its basically a waste of time. Sure you stay awake longer but we can all easily procrastinate a day away regardless, it wont make you any more focused or any smarter. If you for some reason need to improve your focus for a period then dexamphetamines are the way to go, of course you should not pop them every day.

RandomInteger4 10y ago
If you take a consistent low dose of Adderall at least, there should be nothing wrong with taking it every day and might actually be preferable that way, otherwise you're in for a rollercoaster effect. The longer you're on though, up to a point at least I imagine, assuming the dose is consistent, you will have a greater withdrawal period that will really suck compared to if you only use them recreationally, which I consider to include situations where you take them only when you need them, such as all nighters; that definitely falls under recreational usage.
- aidenn0 10y ago
  Different drugs affect people differently. I was rendered incapable of driving safely with a moderate dose of Addreall (30mg), and still felt somewhat unsafe with a low dose of Adderall(15mg). The main effect was that I could no longer subconsciously distinguish moving objects from non-moving objects (I had to think "is that car parked or moving" rather than being able to just tell by looking). My weight is 105kg.
  - 0xffff2 10y ago
    Is 30mg really a moderate does? When I had a pers ription for Aderral, 20mg was enough to make me feel like I was going to die.
    - unimpressive 10y ago

blazespin 10y ago

Pretty impressive work. I personally use nicotine gum (as does President Obama, a health nut) as I'm allergic to caffeine. I have used melatonin in the past, though given this I will use it more now. The key I find is to only use them when you have already outlined in a detailed way a significant set of tasks that need to be performed or a particularly critical meeting where you already have a very strong background. For learning, general creative process I don't use them. The biggest problem is managing the physical addiction (ie, you feel very tired) when you're not taking them. Also there is some evidence that nicotine increases incidence of cancer. Not to mention what it does to my blood pressure, though I find constant exercise helps manage that.

RandomInteger4 10y ago
I don't know if I'd call President Obama a health nut; maybe Michelle, but not sure about Barack, unless he quit smoking and switched permanently to the gum.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dajohnson89 10y ago
  Nicotine gum is awful for your teeth and gums, and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that it thins out hair.
  - RandomInteger4 10y ago
    Perhaps, and I wouldn't know from first hand experience trying it myself, but I imagine it is almost guaranteed to be safer than smoking. For reference on that matter, my mother passed away a while back from lung cancer induced by smoking (small cell lung cancer).
    - dajohnson89 10y ago
      Yes nicotene gum is definitely safer than smoking, and also safer than playing russian roulette.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

lhl 10y ago

I see a lot of dense experimental designs on this page - is any of this abstracted into a simple tool/methodology for use for self-testing (I've noticed some big differences when taking Vitamin D (I'm usually deficient), B-Complexes, etc but don't have a great way to isolate/correlate especially against other factors like sleep or travel...

the_cat_kittles 10y ago

personal experience with add meds and the like: there is no such thing as a free lunch. could be different for other people, but i would always pay the piper in the end.

fowlerpower 10y ago

Does anyone else think this shit is totally bat shit crazy? I may be of the minority here but I am definitely not the minority in the real world. If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy and never take any type of drug for any reason unless you are sick.

forgetsusername 10y ago
>If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy Maybe we do. But if you really care about health, why stop there?
nugga 10y ago
Why? There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with using external catalysts to alter your brain function. We are biological computers and we can alter our programming for better or worse.
- collyw 10y ago
  We are not biological computers.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    We may be biological computers, but that position still advises against nootropics. Or would you install some random patch on your computer just because someone else said that it worked on their computer with probably vastly different software?
RachelF 10y ago
Most of us take drugs like caffeine and alcohol pretty often. The person who made this site has been willing to test, meticulously document and analyse his results. He's pretty informed as to the side-effects, so no, I don't think he's "bat shit crazy", he's doing us a service.
- daveguy 10y ago

partycoder 10y ago

Did he perform all these experiments on himself? It's hard to conduct these experiments with a population of 1 and no control group.

flukus 10y ago
Actually it's incredibly easy, just not statistically relevant.
- partycoder 10y ago
  Well, remember it requires prescription only medication.

ared38 10y ago

Shoutout to examine.com which aggregates and assesses research studies for nootropics and other supplements

AstralStorm 10y ago
Of which there are surprisingly few. Big pharma has trouble marketing those, typical attempts include Alzheimer, stroke management, ADD and narcolepsy, which are pretty hard to run a trial for. These are good enough to establish safety at least. There are even fewer in people without disorders.

jgalvez 10y ago

No mention of methylene blue? :O It's the best one! Below is a post I wrote on a Ray Peat Facebook group that I think fellow coders and behind-a-desk workers might fight interesting. I've been a serious procrastinator and slacker, and it was a long journey of trial and error in getting diet and lifestyle right. I'm thankful to the amazing work of Dr. Ray Peat, which isn't mentioned enough around Hacker News. ⁂ Some comments on maintaining high energy, productivity, creativity and noticeably faster rational thinking (System 2 in the dual process theory) in my day job as a programmer. ◈ Basics first. That is, salt, sugar, calcium, magnesium, A, D, C. If you're lacking any of these you'll have energy problems very quickly. Buy magnesium chloride, add eggshell powder to your mashed potatoes. Get 1g vitamin C pills. Take 5 times as much vitamin A as you take D. ◈ Meditation daily. The main goal of daily meditation for me is to reinforce a stoic mentality, mainly the principle of being indifferent to the external. This is paramount in learning to deal with all kinds of stress. A simple line of thinking that will slowly help you deal with psychological stress better. ◈ Coconut oil-fried eggs. The generally accepted notion around here is that an extremely low fat diet is best for metabolism, i.e., oxidative metabolism is about 15x times more efficient (paraphrasing RP). But saturated fats are extremely good for our brains, because they are used together with cholesterol to generate several hormones (including the wonderful progesterone and pregnenolone). So whatever your brain condition is, if you fry 5 eggs in about 3 tbsp coconut oil, you'll equip your body with the elements it needs to restore its full capacity. http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2010/12/28/high-cholesterol-and-metabolism/ http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2010/12/28/high-cholesterol... http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/cholesterol-longevity.shtml http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/cholesterol-longevity.s... ◈ Aspirin and K2. I was for sometime doing 4g aspirin a day, but I noticed that much isn't necessary. Just 1-2g a day along with 1mg K2 is enough. http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aspirin-brain-cancer.shtml http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aspirin-brain-cancer.shtml http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/04/22/ray-peat-phd-on-aspirin/ http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/04/22/ray-peat-phd-on-... ◈ Fruits, Lysine, Juices, Niacinamide, Methylene Blue, Coffee. I mention all of these in a single sentence because I use them in sequence, hourly, to keep a long streak of productive hours. I drink some fruit juice (orange, grape, even serotonin-ladden pineapple) with 10gtt 2.3% methylene blue, then eat some fruits (I keep sliced guavas and papayas in the frigde) with 100mg niacinamide and 500mg lysine (serotonin antagonist), followed by 100ml sugared coffee. Rinse. Repeat. I think in total I have been consuming nearly 60gtt 2.3% methylene blue and 1.5L coffee in a stretch of programming work, all with maximum focus, energy, no tiredness (taking very short breaks). https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/methylene-blue-mb-is-a-potent-aromatase-inhibitor.6736/ https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/methylene-blue-mb... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgeZJoir70w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgeZJoir70w https://selfhacked.com/2013/08/25/methylene-blue-the-cheapest-cognitive-enhancer/ https://selfhacked.com/2013/08/25/methylene-blue-the-cheapes... Main benefit of MB is its effect as a NO and estrogen antagonist, which improves thyroid function and overall energy levels. Stay away from fish oil, polyunsaturated fats are extremely toxic yet you don't see it in the news -- that's because they're everywhere, it's a huge industry and it's not going to go away easily. But PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids) are the #1 source of all kinds of metabolic disorders, including brain fog. Also avoid things that raise serotonin -- serotonin, contrary to decades of misinformation, does not make us happy -- its role in happines is only peripheral. High serotonin in reality is associated with aging, depression and anger. You should aim for high dopamine and low serotonin, in general -- that's why I take a lysine supplement, it competes with serotonin for entry in the brain. https://pranarupa.wordpress.com/2012/12/25/pufa-because-this-wouldnt-be-a-ray-peat-themed-blog-without-at-least-one-post-on-pufa/ https://pranarupa.wordpress.com/2012/12/25/pufa-because-this... https://pranarupa.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/serotonin-inflammation-depression-mitochondria-energy-and-mad-love-2/ https://pranarupa.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/serotonin-inflamm... Happy reading.

voxic11 10y ago

He hasn't tried Semax. I find it to be amazing for concentration and learning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semax

perfectfire 10y ago

I've been on (legally, with a prescription) Modafinil (4 straight days of nausea), Armodafinil (made me really sleepy), Dextroamphetamine (3 times including right now), Adderall (constantly felt sick), Adderall XR (even worse than Adderall), Ritalin SR (about the same as Adderall), Bupropion twice (Wellbutrin, no noticeable effect). Pretty much everything other than Dextroamphetamine either made me feel sick or strangely for Nuvigil made me sleepy. All of them, except Wellbutrin, Provigil (which I didn't take long enough to notice it's primary effect) and Nuvigil could keep me awake. At least at first. The first few times you take it or you go up a dose it feels pretty amazing. For some reason I want to say it feels like your head is full of light, but don't even know what that's supposed to mean. There's some extra energy and a little more motivation, but if you're looking for a pill that will turn you into a super-productive maniac look elsewhere. It mostly just keeps you awake and what little extra motivation you gain will be offset in part or in full by being more more easily distracted. I've never noticed any sort of increase in cognitive function. What I have noticed is that I get exhausted from physical effort very quickly. When I take it long enough I start to pick off all of my facial hair (there was maybe a year where I never shaved, but had no facial hair), and lose a lot a weight quickly. Recently I dropped around 40 pounds in a few months.

codezero 10y ago
:( This sucks. I tried a lot of different combos of medications and was lucky to have a doctor that let me very clearly experiment with what worked. My dose: Adderall XR 30mg + Adderal 10mg (around 2pm) I tried Adderall, Vyvanse, Ritalin and Concerta (long acting Ritalin) Ritalin had the best cognitive effects but the worst side effects. I slept, but I didn't really sleep. Over time, I developed terrible atrophy as well as a deep sense of apathy. Adderall has been my rock. Straight Adderall is "bad" for me – the side effects are very strong. Any nervous tick I have is amplified very intensely. I play with my hair, I fidget, I bite my lips etc... Adderall XR is very stable, but not very strong. So I take it, and sometimes I supplement with direct Adderall. The most functional combo I ever had was accidental, it was Concerta + Adderall (not XR) but my doctor said it was bad/questionable to mix the two kinds of stimulant (ritalin/adderall) so I abandoned it. It really is about finding the sweet spot between cognitive benefits and side effects. I still have some side effects, but my invariant is sleep. If a medication fucks with my sleep, I don't take it. Adderall, if anything, helps me sleep better, so it works quite well for me. A solution to picking off facial hair, if that's really the problem, is to shave it all off. Same with hair on your head. If then, you are doing great, then problem solved. Also, it doesn't hurt to get a barrage of tests done, maybe you have more stuff going on than just ADHD, and other medications may have a more significant effect on your wellbeing.

pmoriarty 10y ago

"Limitless" is a fun movie to watch for anyone interested in this subject.

unimpressive 10y ago
There is also the even older sci fi story "Understand" by Ted Chiang. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understand_(story) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understand_(story) https://web.archive.org/web/20140527121332/http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/under.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20140527121332/http://www.infini... https://archive.org/details/TedChiangUnderstand https://archive.org/details/TedChiangUnderstand
- pmoriarty 10y ago
  There's an older one than that, whose name escapes me for the moment, but it features a man eating a sandwich that makes him smarter. There's also the classic "Flowers for Algernon" from 1958.[1] I'd strongly recommend reading the short story (and avoid the book, unless you want to witness the ruining of a great story that was best left alone). [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_algernon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_algernon

notapirate 10y ago

Reading gwern for hours is mind numbingly amazing in and of itself. Bonus points to anyone who knows his real name, fan club located in #gwern on freenode especially after the darknet markets research. Is this an alternate reality where HN is actually Slashdot circa 2008, I can't tell right now.

DiabloD3 10y ago
Honestly, I agree with the Slashdot comparison, except earlier in it's lifetime. However, that means HN is going to fall apart in about 2 years and turn into a toxic shithole. Fuck.
- nilved 10y ago
  lobste.rs
pbhjpbhj 10y ago
I'll look that up on my Beowulf cluster of Natalie Portman's hot grits. /\/.

notapirate 10y ago

HalfwayToDice 10y ago

The best nootropic is getting a good nights sleep. It takes effort! Preparing for bed early and disciplining yourself to put the light out is not easy. Not nearly as easy as popping a pill. But it's so much more effective than any drug listed here. And for a safe and provable quick cognitive boost, take some caffeine, preferable green tea with theanine.

lisper 10y ago
This. And use Flux. Blue light after 9PM is the enemy.
- marak830 10y ago
  Someone mentioned this on HN a few months this ago, ended up grabbing twilight(Android - I like reading in bed). It has made a noticeable difference!
- kristofferR 10y ago
  Try getting the Uvex S1933X glasses. They work for everything in your view (obviously) without messing around with software, and probably works better too. I have them, and they're amazing. I have pretty cool LED lighting in my apartment and can make my whole living room any color I want at night. If I set in to pure blue and put on the glasses, it's like being in pitch blackness (except a couple of items glow brightly). It's not like looking at things with an orange tint at all, even though the glasses are obviously orange. That being said - the benefits I get by using them is amazing. It's weird how much of a difference it can make, I get tired quickly after putting them on in the evening. If I forget to put them on I usually end up staying up too late, getting too little sleep and often ruining the next day. Personally I find it way more effective than flux. By the way - blue light isn't just a negative thing, but also a huge positive. In the morning I use a Philips goLITE BLU HF3332, and it really improves both my energy and mood quickly after just a few minutes of usage. Those two simple items, a blue light and a pair of blue-blocking glasses, have improved my life significantly. Try it out (especially the glasses, it's just $9).
- driverdan 10y ago

pmoriarty 10y ago

Self-experimentation has a long history in medicine. An interesting book on it is "Who Goes First?" https://www.amazon.com/Who-Goes-First-Self-Experimentation-Medicine/dp/0520212819 https://www.amazon.com/Who-Goes-First-Self-Experimentation-M...

mentos 10y ago

Funny timing of this article. Just 3 days ago I was sitting at my desk and had this awesome calm come over me, something I've only ever experienced at the end of a long day when a hangover finally breaks. I looked at the ingredients in the two "Just Chill" drinks on my desk and noticed each had 150Mg of "Suntheanine" which was one of the listed nootropics in this article.

DiabloD3 10y ago
Suntheanine is a brand of synthetic L-theanine. It is considered the highest grade L-theanine you can get, but not sufficiently better enough than the others to pay extra for it. 300mg of L-theanine is equivalent to about 12 to 38 cups of tea (tea naturally has a wide range of L-theanine content, depending on the tea and how it is processed). Up to 1,200mg daily is considered safe, however, like with all drugs, you should only take as much as needed to get the effect you want.

pw 10y ago

I've been on modafinil for a number of years now (prescribed by a doctor in relation to a real medical condition). It is indeed a very interesting drug. There's a reason it's the brand names are Provigil and Nivigil. "Vigilant" is indeed a very good way to describe how it makes you feel. Like caffeine but cleaner (no jitters, etc.). The downside is that you build up tolerance pretty quickly and that feeling dissipates. At this point, I really only notice if I don't take it (as you might with your daily cup of coffee). I honestly don't know if I continue to get on-going benefit, but I'm don't have any side effects, it may have some neuroprotective effects and getting off would be hard.

arcadeparade 10y ago
I took Modafinil for a year after reading Gwern, 100mg twice a week on average. It relieves a lot of anxiety for me and also acted as a great appetite suppresant, but I also worry it has caused me some cognitive decline. I feel like a bit of a zombie sometimes, kind of dead emotionally, not talking as much, feeling generally dumber. Can't say for sure as I've had a lot of stress in the last few months too, but people should be very careful with these things.
- chillingeffect 10y ago
  In my experiments with noots my technical cognition didn't shoot up like i was hoping.... But my emotional intelligence did. In many cases for me, similar to yours, I realized the smartest thing in many situations for me was simply to keep quiet! It gave me a neutral place where I could validate peoples' emotions or listen without saying dumb things.

yarou 10y ago

As I've said in other places, the discussion of nootropics used to be a scientific discussion of cognitive enhancers by sober, psychologically healthy people. But as of late, it's degenerated into shady grey market talk of legal highs, tainting the discussion. In particular, DO NOT use phenibut for long periods of time. The withdrawal can be potentially life-threatening, including horrible seizures that paramedics may not even be able to deal with because it's not a traditional GABA agonist. Regardless of whatever huckster or snake oil salesman tries to tell you, this is probably one of the most dangerous drugs that's marketed as a nootropic, but is really a recreational drug. The best nootropic stack is a good night sleep, healthy diet and exercise, and reading a book that teaches you something new.

udkl 10y ago
and reading a book that teaches you something new. I can attest to this. I've noticed I sleep MUCH better when I watch the next episode of "The Mechanical Universe" on my phone in my bed right before I sleep.

bemmu 10y ago

I remember there was a blog post where they polled hundreds of people about nootropics they tried and then it had a list of the ones which had the highest self-reported subjective impact. I've been trying to find it but can't, anyone got a link?

gary_bernhardt 10y ago
You're probably thinking of Scott Alexander's nootropics survey. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/03/01/2016-nootropics-survey-results/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/03/01/2016-nootropics-survey-...
- bemmu 10y ago
  That's the one, thank you.

atmosx 10y ago

offtopic: Does anyone see a web add on top of the article? I'm trying to understand if Chrome is infected. Chrome and Safari both display the add while FF doesn't display the add.

eth0up 10y ago
Just tried it in Chromium, see a "quit Smoking" ad. Nothing in FF.
- atmosx 10y ago
  thanks, then it's not just me.

throwaway__123 10y ago

Zoloft I am afraid of sounding like a shill, but the fact is I'm 30 engineer, who has been trying to feel better my whole life through experiments with: ketamine, CBD, various nutrients, various dietary changes, exercise, being more social, meditation. None of them made lasting improvement like sertraline has, I wish I had been open-minded enough to try it years ago. In retrospect, maybe it was ridiculous to try to find happiness with all methods other than the ones there are best medical evidence for... I guess I was afraid that somehow I'd be conceding there was something "wrong" with me (which is wonk). I was wondering why nobody had ever mentioned this before, and I realized people who use prescription medications are probably afraid to admit it. So I'm just putting out my sincere recommendation out there, as I wish somehow had done for me.

chillacy 10y ago
I'd like to offer a story of caution, and I do so with some hesitation because it sounds like it's been good for you so far. A friend of mine lost his life after committing suicide a month after starting Zoloft. His last messages to me were a discussion of what serotonin syndrome was like. He was excited and curious as always, which after reading online is common. I know I shouldn't blame the drug since he was depressed before... but it sucks to lose someone when it seems like their life was on the upward climb. Anyways, stay safe and be careful.
- abrichr 10y ago
  This is a well documented reaction to the beginning of treatment for depression. Essentially the reason is that before they started treatment, they had no motivation to do anything. After they start the treatment, but before they've waited long enough to realize the benefits, they have enough motivation to end their lives.
  - gf263 10y ago
    Wow. That sounds like a sick joke.

wonkaWonka 10y ago

...if caffeine were a new drug, I wonder what Schedule it would be in and if people might be even more leery of it than modafinil. ... So I eventually got around to ordering another thing of nicotine gum... A second dose was similar, and the third dose was at 10 PM before playing Ninja Gaiden II seemed to stop the usual exhaustion I feel after playing through a level or so. Okay, I'm no longer part of the gwern fanclub. I could pick apart other aspects of this article, but I'll refrain, since it's not without a modicum of practical utility. Yes, he writes very lengthy, detailed articles. Lovely. But they are anecdotes. And artisanal anecdotes at best. To summarize gwern: A layman tries some stuff that is innately accessible to any layman, and writes haughtily aloof essays.

6nf 10y ago
The article literally states that it is only anecdotal in the very first paragraph.
- wonkaWonka 10y ago
  In what way should that change my reaction? What's your reason for believing it should? I'm asking these questions rhetorically.

dandare 10y ago

How is this compilation of anecdotal evidence even a thing on HN? I performed well on the Cambridge mental rotations test. An anecdote, of course, and it may be due to the vitamin D I simultaneously started. Or another day, I was slumped under apathy after a promising start to the day; a dose of fish & coconut oil, and 1 last vitamin D, and I was back to feeling chipper and optimist.

hasbroslasher 10y ago

So you're telling me you alter your biochemistry to become more productive without a care for how it affects your overall (mostly mental) health? Hell, I started smoking cigarettes at 16, which I rank near the top of my worst decisions ever, despite the fact that it helped me hack my brain chemistry as I powered through numerous difficult math and CS classes with top scores. As a result, I spent years thrashing, kicking the insane habit and returning to baseline healthiness. To me, the entire idea of performance-enhancing chemicals is the essence of Moloch (http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/) - the supposed optimization that we choose to "gain an edge" and end up worse off than if everyone had just been a bit more cynical and abstained. To what ends? Eventually this kind of thing ends up costing you $50 a month and keeping you on par with everyone else in the office (who also happen to brain-chemistry-hack), side-effects be damned. Luckily, I can fall back on my experience and relative skill at programming. Many cannot - as a late-aughts college student and "yuppie", I saw "the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness" induced by incessant Adderall use in a futile attempt to either "keep up" or "get ahead". To what ends? Some sped their way through upper-levels or toiled through back-breaking entry level jobs only to develop near psychosis, emotional numbness, apathy, and a resume piece that I too gained with considerably less strife. Don't get me wrong, I drink a cup of coffee (or two) in the mornings to get going, but it's usually an break from my workday, not an essential part of it. More than that, it's enjoyable - added focus and clarity be damned. Silly as it may sound, I've even seen coffee become a problem for the hopelessly driven and chronically sleep-deprived - reducing them to diarrhea-ridden, jittery maniacs! Maybe the TL;DR here is: sleep more, bike hard, and have some fun struggling instead of constantly grinding for carrots on sticks. It is true, after all, that many people (men, in particular) say their greatest regret was working so hard - https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-of-the-dying https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-fiv...

bambax 10y ago
Very well said, this should be at the top of the thread!! ;-)
princeb 10y ago
> that many people (men, in particular) say their greatest regret was working so hard i think many people also regret not working harder.

hagendat 10y ago

Impressive and very detailed work. Thank you

delegate 10y ago

I've experimented with nootropics about 10 years ago. I was on a regimen of Piracetam, Hydergine and several others, the names of which I don't remember now, plus the usual vitamins, fish oil, etc. I did the nootropics for about 2 months or so. Short term I've felt improvement to my memory, my thinking has changed, I had more mental energy and sharpness. However, it also changed my personality and the way I was seeing other people, which resulted in me gathering the courage to separate from my wife. In retrospect, this was a very good move for both of us, but at that time it wasn't that peachy. I've stopped taking those nootropics because I didn't like the robot that I've become. However I still like the idea of chemically tuning your consciousness. 10-15 micrograms of LSD is the solution for me, because it opens me up emotionally, increases enjoyment of music and art, while also allowing me to tackle complexity with ease.

xarope 10y ago

I sleep like a babe most of the time (in my late 40's). I attribute this to three main factors: - little/no caffeine everyday (I do love chocolate, but I don't eat it everyday) - exercise, both strength and conditioning (not just HIIT, but also LSD) - and importantly, ability to mentally box up and put aside highly stressful or critical issues (I mull over them and rigorously tear them apart, then decide on the first step - how to eat an elephant? one small bite at a time. If my subconscious then processes it further, all the better the next morning after a good night's sleep).

swah 10y ago
Point 3 is the hardest for me - I never stopping worrying about personal things at work, and work related stuff at home..

ilitirit 10y ago

I maintain that much of this still comes down to the individual. I don't about anyone else's experiences, but Modafinil seems to have a positive effect on me in terms of the way I work. I use it maybe once a week if I feel I need to focus. Placebo? Who knows. Same effect as living a healthy lifestyle? Probably not, but then again I've never tested it. Does it have the same effect on everyone I know? Some say yes, others say it does nothing for them. But that's not strange at all. Some people just have different experiences with different things.

Angostura 10y ago

My sleep problems were cured entirely by listening to BBC radio podcasts in bed. I only ever get in about 10 minutes before I'm off.

thaw13579 10y ago

I found the writing style and organization made it hard to get anything out of this, but maybe it is just a "laboratory" notebook?

dharmatech 10y ago

Book: "Why Isn't My Brain Working?" by Datis Kharrazian Good introduction to general brain health.

Galaxeblaffer 10y ago

Wow.. This dude.. I've tested a couple of the mentioned drugs myself and thought i'd chip in with my results and learnings Modafinil/Armodafinil Definitely works and the side effects are neglectable. It's much as he describes it but im not sure why he can't feel it some of the time as the effect on me is really strong, especially with armodafinil which was almost too much to be hanging around other people :) You feel very awake like a mild cocaine high but have an easy time focusing on the task you are doing, i can definitely recommend it for all nighters and situations where you have to get something out the door ! Melatonin I've experienced quite a bit with this, since i have really really hard time falling asleep. It's actually a huge issue for me. i've found that "microdosing" works even better than taking the "normal dose" of 2-3mg. I found a supplier in the Netherlands who sells 300ug pills and they have worked wonders for me ! works just as well as the stronger dose but it seems that the lower dose makes you sleep better. Just my 2 cents :)

imagist 10y ago
> i've found that "microdosing" works even better than taking the "normal dose" of 2-3mg. I found a supplier in the Netherlands who sells 300ug pills and they have worked wonders for me ! works just as well as the stronger dose but it seems that the lower dose makes you sleep better. You're not alone in this; in fact, I think it's pretty widely accepted among melatonin users that "<1mg doses work better" is just fact. The 2-3 mg dosage contained by most available supplements seems to be motivated by a misguided belief that more melatonin is more effective, in opposition to all the evidence that I've seen.
zebraflask 10y ago
Agreed on the smaller doses of melatonin. A full tablet (5 or 10mg) tends to have the opposite effect and make me even wider awake after an hour or so of sleepiness. Someone told me once that most tablets are dosed too strong simply because it's an inexpensive supplement, and in the manufacturing process, it's cheaper to use the production templates used for other supplements that are dosed in higher amounts.
- Obi_Juan_Kenobi 10y ago

bbctol 10y ago

There is a huge, huge placebo effect when it comes to cognitive enhancement, and while I understand that this is intended as a series of anecdotes, it still seems that the author doesn't fully understand this. Most notably, for his attempts at blinding himself, he doesn't seem to have measured any actual cognitive improvement, just whether or not he could successfully distinguish drug and placebo. This is a large misunderstanding of experimental design and the placebo effect; most of these drugs definitely do cause physiological effects that can be detected, and the great worry with respect to Adderall etc. effectiveness is that people confuse rapid heartrate and quickly focusing vision with increased mental ability, without actually improving much.

computerphage 10y ago
I think Gwern understands many of the limits of his experimental design. He's has written extensively on a wide variety of statistical and scientific topics. Here's an example related to placebo that's linked to from his blog. http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/689936-My-Paper-quot-Noopept-amp-The-Placebo-Effect-quot?p=11910708&viewfull=1#post11910708 http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/689936-My-Paper-quot-Noo... See also: https://www.gwern.net/Statistical%20notes https://www.gwern.net/Statistical%20notes I'm not saying he's a perfect researcher, but give him some credit instead of assuming he doesn't understand what he's talking about.
- argonaut 10y ago
  That would be even worse - he knows the limits of the designs and chooses to ignore them anyways and publish anecdata.

rubber_duck 10y ago

A shame no info on testosterone - that's the one I'm most interested in both from physical and psychological perspective, I know a few people who used it but they are in physical/service jobs, I wonder how it would affect programming productivity. Any throwaways here willing to share their experiences ?

steroids_ 10y ago
I have been self prescribing testosterone for 2 years. My levels were 250 ng/dl, at 20 years old. No Dr. would prescribe due to my age, but I felt, and looked like crap. Testosterone has been life changing. The amount of focus and drive I get running high normal levels is insane. The only time problems crop up that cause issues at work, is when estrogen gets out of line. Estrogen that is out of range, high or low, causes severe issues. I only have issues when running supra-physiological doses of testosterone though. For more info, check out /r/steroids[0]. Fantastic wiki with tons of info on running safe cycles, or long term usage. [0] www.reddit.com/r/steroids
mudd343 10y ago
I've also been self-prescribing testosterone for years, dosage ranging from 200mg/week to 3,000mg/week. I find the sweet spot to be around 200mg-500mg/week. Anything higher makes me lethargic, at 3000mg/week I would sleep 15 hours and get almost nothing done, of course at 3000mg the physical results were dramatic. I could sit on my ass and eat a gallon of ice cream all day and still lose body fat. In my experience negative effects are most prominent when there is fluctuations of hormone levels, such as when changing the dosage dramatically. Of course it isn't a magic drug, the effects are slow and gradual. How it will affect programming productivity, I would say is subjective, but it will give you an overall better sense of well being.

Question1101 10y ago

Can you just get the nutrition supplements from the drug store or are those all no good? I want to supplement magnesium since I am sure I am not getting enough.

cyrusc 10y ago
Yes most of these can be found in basic drug stores or health food stores, especially magnesium supplements or natural supplements such as ashwagandha. However, you won't find any finils or racetams except online.

edem 10y ago

This website is broken on my mobile (Sony Z3). I can only see a tiny column of text on the left.

Uptrenda 10y ago

Right now, there are people in the nootropic community who are using experimental compounds that haven't yet passed clinical trials and in some cases have no prior history of human use at all. A large portion of the data used by communities like this (even "self-experimenters") -- use cargo cult pseudo-science to justify their drug use -- something that can go horribly wrong in inexperienced hands. The majority of these people aren't even testing their compounds. They take them blindly or rely on the reputation of other people to tell them that its safe - mostly because they're ignorant, lazy, cheap, impatient or some combination thereof. They also have very little understanding of pharmacology or basic science, and I've seen first hand accounts from drug enthusiasts who go on to describe how they can "feel" the actions at various receptors in their brains based on something they've poorly understood from reading Wikipedia for 5 minutes (which is just complete nonsense.) And what's worse, is that there’s no easy way for the average person to tell what information is good since so much of the Internet is written to seem authoritative. Suppose I Google a question and find a well-written blog post on serotonin interactions between various drugs that answers my question. Am I really going to know that the article is inaccurate, bias, or incomplete? Or am I going to walk away feeling like I've learned something, because I hate to say it but -- that's largely what the web is these days. None of the real information is on the surface because that would be far too boring for the average reader and boring content doesn't sell. Now combine this with drug use and you have a toxic mix of ignorance that can literally kill people. I could go on about this subject but I won't rant any more. Just keep in mind that a lot of what’s written about nootropics (and other drugs) is no where near as clean or as simple as the Internet makes it seem, and that most people aren't even in a position to use caffeine therapeutically - let alone safely negotiate complex, poorly understood, and potentially unknown compounds they bought from the Internet (so try not to take Gwern at face value.)

JamesBarney 10y ago
While individuals that are ignorant, lazy, cheap, and impatient exist in all communities, Gwern(the author) does not possess any of those qualities. He is probably one of the least lazy, ignorant, and impatient people I have read online.(I didn't mention cheap because his writing doesn't give me any illumination into his spending habits)

dominotw 10y ago

play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

joelmeckert 10y ago

I used a stack this summer, noopept, l-theanine, aceytl-l-carnitine (alcar), caffeine, taurine, huperzine-a, l-tyrosine, modafinil, DHEA. I did a year's worth of work in a month and a half. . . My employer benefited, became proficient in PowerShell in two weeks with little coding experience, worked 16 hour days (it was that busy), but lost out on life, although they offered me a development position after the project. Dropped out of road biking as I wasn't eating enough to do group rides, dropped 15 pounds in a month and a half (which isn't a terrible outcome). At the end of the day, my employer could care less about the hours and outcomes of the project, it was a total waste of time. Stay normal, have good relationships in life, routine, exercise, diet. It didn't result in any net happiness gains, analytical mind took over and I became good at doing things for other people, but not living.

carbonatedmilk 10y ago

My takeaway from this article: Ingesting 38 different purported nootropics may cause you to write super long rambling blog posts and inadvisably apply statistics to poorly designed experiments.