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Pardon Snowden
- netgusto 10y agoHow to take action outside US ? The link to Amnesty international on the Take Action page is broken.
- d33 10y agoWhy does it show four months of countdown if voting's in a bit more than two months?
- tempestn 10y agoBecause the sitting president doesn't leave office on voting day. The actual hand-off (Inauguration Day) doesn't happen until January.
- ianai 10y agoIf I remember right pardon day is right before the transition.
- vidarh 10y agoEffectively, in that it's "tradition" for the president to issue a bunch of pardons right before leaving office, largely because it's the last chance to do so, partly because at that point it's too late for any political opponents to use it against him. But the sitting president can issue pardons at any point during the presidency.
- ekianjo 10y agoPardonning Snowden while allowing the NSA to continue their business as usual would be strange.
- spacehome 10y agoPolitics is the art of compromise.
- WilliamDhalgren 10y agoWell, from a political point of view, Snowden is just a guy, and he did what he could do already. Pardoned or shot dead, makes little difference now (well, chilling effect is certainly even worse if the latter happened tomorrow, but its bad enough as it is). The important thing would be wistleblower protection laws changes that would protect a future Snowden from this situation.
- gizmo 10y agoEdward Snowden is hugely valuable politically because he stood up to the intelligence agencies and survived (so far). Most importantly, we have a moral obligation to get him pardoned. Snowden sacrificed a great deal already. He doesn't need to be martyred, he should be allowed to return home and continue his life.
- wallace_f 10y ago>should be allowed to return home and continue his life. That is only true if you are operating under the assumption that liberty, human welfare, and strength of America as a nation is a good thing for the future. To me, it's not at all obvious that our ruling class really gives a shit about those.
- dredmorbius 10y agoYou might still divide your feelings about the American ruling class, and Edward Snowden, presently facing criminal prosecution and long time, possibly (though doubtfully) death. So, no, yours isn't the only reason to support pardoning Snowden. It's also, distantly, possible that the act of allowing for the potential good of his actions might lead more to question an unwavering support of present American principles, values, and policies.
- ShinyCyril 10y agoFor those outside of the US the link (https://www.amnesty.org/en/get-involved/take-action/Edward-Snowden-hero-not-traitor/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/get-involved/take-action/Edward-S...) does not work. Anyone know what the correct link should be?
- fimdomeio 10y agoI did some search it appears that it doesn't exist now or that it never existed in the first place.
- r3bl 10y agoNope, it definitely existed. I googled "snowden hero not traitor amnesty international" and the first link is a press release from the Amnesty International itself (the press release is also down) that links to that page: http://imgur.com/3Ttfjc5 http://imgur.com/3Ttfjc5
- andyjohnson0 10y agoGoogle cache: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sK4C4_TwEJYJ:https://www.amnesty.org/en/press-releases/2016/09/leaving-edward-snowden-in-limbo-will-be-a-stain-on-president-obamas-legacy/%3Fsrc%3Dilaw+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sK4C4_...
- cube00 10y agoI suspect Obama won't care too much about what people living outside the US think on this one.
- CalRobert 10y agoAt least some of us living outside the US are still US citizens, whom he presumably ought to care about (at least a little). My actual experience, though, is that emigrants are viewed with some disdain by a good portion of US citizens. Then again, viewpoints like that are one part of why I'm an emigrant...
- TheGorramBatman 10y agoI'm kinda suspicious of this site -- none of the ACLU, HRW , Amnesty International links work at the bottom. And none of those organizations use whoisguard.
- r3bl 10y agoBecause they're not links, they're images.
- Faaak 10y agoThey were links, not images
- sbuttgereit 10y agoI'm in agreement. Despite what I might think about their cause (I support their cause), I can't get a bead on who actually is behind the site. The site is constructed in a very non-transparent way, a very scammy feel to it. I have found that the ACLU links from their site to the Pardon Snowden site. Interestingly, Human Rights Watch does not link to the site, but seems to have their own petition (maybe connected?) and that's as far as I went. Even with that bit of confirmation that this site is legit. I am not that promiscuous with my information.
- yincrash 10y agohttps://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/09/leaving-edward-snowden-in-limbo-will-be-a-stain-on-president-obamas-legacy/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/09/leaving-edwar...
- preetish 10y agoIf it doesn't happen now, what 's the probability that Hilary/Donald would grant pardon?
- r3bl 10y agoI would say none.
- have_faith 10y agoI doubt Hilary would consider it seriously and I strongly doubt Donald would even give it a second thought because of his primary voter base.
- darkhorn 10y agoDoesn't matter. Bernie will take care.
- rspeer 10y agoDonald Trump wants Edward Snowden executed, extrajudicially if necessary. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130624/17270323599/donald-trump-thinks-extradition-process-is-too-slow-suggests-just-killing-edward-snowden.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130624/17270323599/donal...
- darkhorn 10y agohttps://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/52r6im/bernie_sanders_daniel_ellsberg_former_members_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/52r6im/bernie_sanders... "Bernie Sanders, Daniel Ellsberg, former members of the NSA and more weigh in: 'Edward Snowden did this country a great service. Let him come home'" For those who have downvoted me!
- r3bl 10y agoHoly hell! Looking at the supporters page (https://www.pardonsnowden.org/supporters https://www.pardonsnowden.org/supporters) I do have to admit that they've acquired support from some people that I never thought to see there, like Steve Wozniak, Noam Chomsky, and George Soros.
- hughperkins 10y agoAccording to the comment just above yours, those "signatures" are unauthenticated?
- rspeer 10y agoThis isn't about signatures or authentication, the site says outright that those people are supporters.
- floatrock 10y ago> the site says outright that those people are supporters. With no citation. I can make a site say anything I want it. Credibility comes when you can point to other sites saying the same thing.
- rspeer 10y agoNow you're claiming something different. hughperkins was using a "security mindset", and was implying that the site, due to lack of authentication, was being tricked into showing "George Soros" as a supporter because it just let anybody type in "George Soros". This is not the case. The page of supporters is a page they designed, with no user input. The site is making the explicit claim that George Soros, that George Soros, is a supporter. If you believe the site is lying, no amount of authentication on the site's side is going to fix that!
- quirkafleeg 10y agoYou're surprised to see Chomsky there?
- 10y ago
- WilliamDhalgren 10y agocan he do that? pardon someone that hasn't been apprehended nor trialed yet?
- ianai 10y agoFord pardoned Nixon for whatever he had done against the country. It's possible despite unlikely.
- jboynyc 10y agoIn the case of Ford's pardon of Nixon, the pardon covered "any crimes he might have committed against the United States while president," as Wikipedia currently has it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon_of_Richard_Nixon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon_of_Richard_Nixon As the entry goes on to state, that was controversial, but it worked. So it should be able to work in a case like this as well.
- lucozade 10y agoClinton pardoned Marc Rich [0] who was, at the time of the pardon, a fugitive in Switzerland. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich
- bronlund 10y agoFat chance ;)
- Cypher 10y agoIt'll be odd if he comes back, safer to remain in exodus.
- nbevans 10y agoBut he didn't just leak information concerning his homeland. He actually leaked information about allies of his homeland e.g. the UK. I'm pretty sure that alone will ensure he won't get pardoned. It could cause one of the biggest diplomatic incidents in history between the US and UK. Particularly with Theresa May as PM - who has been instrumental for years in building up the security services powers.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- JMCQ87 10y agoThe UK is even more one-sided totalitarian in their views on state surveillance, so you got a point there.
- wfunction 10y agoThe thing I hate about all petition sites is that they ask for my personal information for... what purpose exactly? They don't even seem to try to verify anything. They just look like scams to me, which is a shame because I really think they shouldn't be...
- Freak_NL 10y agoTo prevent ballot stuffing I would assume. With a name and email address you might check the validity of a petition by randomly mailing some of the petition signers to validate that they did sign it themselves.
- nitrogen 10y agoAIUI petition drives are sometimes used to build mailing lists and drive further actions by signers.
- informatimago 10y agoPetitions cannot/should not be anonymous. The fact that your name and address is known to the entity receiving the petition shows that you really mean it. Also, for some entities it might be illegal to be moved by petitions signed by non-citizen. Unfortunately, those petitions systems only ask for your address, not for your citizenship. But we can assume citizenship from the address for the first order.
- wfunction 10y agoI know. Notice my complaint was about the lack of verification or other genuine need of the information. Not about the request for personal information itself. If they made legitimate use of it (and ONLY legitimate use), I would understand. However, the ones I have tried do not seem to verify anything, and instead use your contact info as a way to send you campaign materials and advertise to you in the future. That's the part that rubs me the wrong way - it feels like a scam designed to get your personal information. And in this age of identity theft, I really have little incentive to risk it.
- 10y ago
- allendoerfer 10y agoI think the problem is, people do not care anymore. The scandal is over, business as usual. Only a small percentage of the population still cares about Snowden. I think the image of the NSA has been hurt and a change in legislation might get you some positive press in the future, but I do not think that pardoning Snowden would be worth the effort for a politician. On the other hand: Obama probably does not have to care. Edit: I normally don't do these edits, but seriously, why am I getting downvoted for this? Obviously this is bad, that does not make it any less true. You must be the ones downvoting sad YouTube videos and the reason why Facebook had to introduce multiple like variants.
- imron 10y agoI think people are confusing your statement of the situation as endorsement of the situation. The reality is, I think you're right. Sadly, for the majority of people, this is not an issue they care about.
- unicornporn 10y agoDescriptive vs normative statements. Surprisingly difficult for people to differentiate between the two.
- allendoerfer 10y agoIf you look at my comment, it even was normative, but the other way round. I called the situation a "problem".
- unicornporn 10y agoThere you go, some people obviously even have trouble looking at the comments :)
- robattila128 10y agoInterviewer questions have shown more care about Snowden's personal drama instead of focusing on the issues of growing censorship and surveillance. I wish people would stop donating money to twitch gamers and instead support journalists who investigate, setup tor-relays/seed-boxes and reduce the dependence on centralization.
- jondoe 10y agoSorry Snowden but I don't support anything what "George Soros" support, i read you book,interview [...] but you are on wrong side of barricade https://www.google.co.uk/#q=gorge+soros https://www.google.co.uk/#q=gorge+soros "Some results may have been removed under data protection law in Europe. Learn more" http://commieblaster.com/george-soros-fund/ http://commieblaster.com/george-soros-fund/ http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-08/how-george-soros-singlehandedly-created-european-refugee-crisis-and-why http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-08/how-george-soros-si... http://www.infowars.com/soros-admits-responsibility-for-coup-and-mass-murder-in-ukraine/ http://www.infowars.com/soros-admits-responsibility-for-coup... http://www.scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/1906325/how-beijing-and-hong-kong-sent-billionaire-george-soros-packing http://www.scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/1906325/how-b... http://mailstar.net/asia-crisis.html http://mailstar.net/asia-crisis.html This person is responsible for the miseries of million people. He is P-0-1 p;o)t 2.0
- zouhair 10y agoAnd you think Putin is better? But Soros is where you draw the line.
- varjag 10y agoHaving a thing for Putin pretty much guarantees hate for Soros so it's not surprising.
- jondoe 10y agoWe speak about soros person who is mention even in hillary leaked email person who make money from people suffering. And use this money to buy people/lobbing for own personal revenge.
- pbarnes_1 10y agoAre you for real? Welcome to politics, friend. This is how the game is played. This is not shocking news to anyone.
- gizmo 10y ago
- kintamanimatt 10y agoYou can't pardon someone until they've been convicted. Snowden hasn't been tried and convicted and so can't be pardoned.
- imron 10y agoNot true. See Ford's pardon of Nixon.
- slavik81 10y agoTo literally see the pardon: http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/speechgfx/ford-pardon1.jpg http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/speechgfx/ford-pardon1.... http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/speechgfx/ford-pardon2.jpg http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/speechgfx/ford-pardon2....
- pyvpx 10y agocompletely incorrect in regards to a presidential pardon in the US.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- 2T1Qka0rEiPr 10y agoWhatever your opinion on the actual Snowden case - I think pardoning someone is seen to active condone whistle-blowing within the miltary / intelligence community, which I can't see the Government wanting to do.
- JMCQ87 10y agoThey should be condoning it. For that, a lot of things would have to change first though, like, for example, the community has to come to the realization that the (supposed) ends do not justify the means and that it's therefore the right thing to do to whistle-blow about them. They also need to realize that the internal mechanisms to whistle-blow are "not effective", to say the least.
- eli 10y agoYou think every IT person in the government should have the ability to disclose any Top Secret programs based only on their own personal opinions about their legality?
- CamperBob2 10y agoThey (the three-letter agencies) could always try not breaking the law. See if that cuts down on the number of employees looking to sell them down the river.
- eli 10y agoIs it up to low level employees with no legal training to decide who is breaking the law?
- CamperBob2 10y agoHello from sunny Nuremberg. Wish you were here.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- pearjuice 10y agoSnowden should be put on trial for committing treason. No matter how bad it is what he exposed. He broke the law[0]. What he exposed are policies of the United States by people put in power in a democracy and free country. If you don't want that shit happening in your country, let the people in power know. Go on the streets. Millions of poeple are not happy with what is going on, but literally nothing changed. Sadly, American citizens and the West in general have been trained from a young age to be apathetic and those that have the audacity to fight back have been systematically beaten down. They rather create parallax websites with fancy countdowns than actually trying to change something. When's the last time they've had to mobilize the National Guard because there was a protest? The entire American economy could collapse because of a giant banking scandal and people wouldn't even raise a fist in anger. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Criminal_charges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Criminal_charge...
- dnautics 10y agoTreason has a specific two point definition in the US Constitution and it is hard to see how his actions rise to the criteria enumerated therein. Personally, I think he should be criminally pardoned but left open to civil proceedings for breach of contract should his former employer seek to bring forward a suit.
- aikah 10y ago> Snowden committed treason The only people that behaved in a treacherous fashion are the one that are spying on you because for them you're just a criminal by default. Furthermore he didn't commit treason, he didn't spy for a 3rd party country. He revealed to the world the scope of NSA spying and did everybody a big favor. There is nothing democratic with secret laws and spying. Today you cannot say you don't know and deny reality. But you can choose to ignore it... until the system turns against you. Today if you accept PRISM you become a willing participent and a slave to that system. What you don't understand is one day, an irresponsible administration will come to power and use all this system for its own personal gain. There is nothing stopping that right now. It's funny how people get all worked up by Facebook censoring some insignificant content when they directly collude with the government to hand over data. So does Google, Yahoo and all big tech companies in US.
- Amplifix 10y agoEven if he gets pardoned, I think he will just disappear.
- JMCQ87 10y agoMaybe he would have a tragic car accident, or commit suicide.
- cesis 10y agoAlso don't forget about Manning who actually went to prison and is not getting any publicity now.
- raddad 10y agoJust last night on the radio they were talking about Manning ending a hunger strike and getting some medical attention and having the surgery suggested by her psych doctor.
- blowski 10y agoYep, she was front page news on the BBC only this morning.
- AnkhMorporkian 10y agoI'm for a pardon for Snowden, but not Manning. Snowden released info on a deeply classified and unethical program, targeted to dismantle the programs in question. Manning carte blanche released TONS of data about TONS of things, trusting only Wikileaks to filter out sensitive data.
- strictnein 10y agoSnowden carte blanche stole and gave up "TONS of data about TONS of things", trusting only Greenwald, et al to filter out sensitive data.
- AnkhMorporkian 10y agoI actually agree with you there. If you browse some of my older comment history, I made that exact point that he trusted a foreign journalist team to filter sensitive NOFORN and SAP information. However, I believe the net good that has come out of that disclosure, and the "I'm doing this to expose deep government malfeasance" as opposed to "The government sucks here's all the data" warrants the difference in treatment. Edit: That being said, if we ever do get evidence that China or Russia did manage to get that data during his trip there, I'd change my tune immediately. That would be high treason, at least if it was intentional.
- captainmuon 10y agoMaybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being targeted for more intense data collection by the NSA? God, I hate how quickly you can get paranoid these days. A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US...
- lettergram 10y agoBy logging into "hacker news" regularly, mentioning the NSA (and probably other key terms: data collection, US citizen) I'm sure you are already on a list.
- dsacco 10y ago> By logging into "hacker news" regularly, mentioning the NSA (and probably other key terms: data collection, US citizen) I'm sure you are already on a list. If the NSA really does maintain these macabre "lists", it's kind of hard to believe they'd be so unsophisticated as to put you on one for visiting a website called "Hacker News" that has nothing to do with the definition of "hacking" that they care about.
- Semiapies 10y agoIt may be hard to believe, but it's typical of surveillance programs. They aren't run by cunning Men in Black, they're just another government program with bureaucratic directives and clueless people in charge.
- Dolores12 10y agoAs an US citizen, you don't have to fear, you have freedom of speech.
- 10y ago
- paulintrognon 10y agoI believe when you wrote "socialist" you meant "authoritarianist"? Please don't mix-up those two concepts
- tn13 10y agoSame.
- banach 10y agoNot at all (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anarchism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anarchism).
- mmiu 10y agoThey meant "communist", I assume, and communist countries are always totalitarian, I can't think of an exception.
- vidarh 10y agoOf course not a single one of the countries you are referring to consider their countries to be communist, but socialist.
- mmiu 10y agoWhat? Communist countries are ruled by a single communist party and do call themselves communist. As well as socialist. The terms have their differences, but "communist" is used.
- pbhjpbhj 10y agoSocrates is a philosopher. Socrates is a man. Conclusion, all philosophers are men.
- BjoernKW 10y agoIn theory those are different. In practice though there hasn't been a single socialist country that hasn't at least devolved into authoritarianism or even has been so right from the start (Scandinavian Socialism and modern day German Social Market Economy could be considered exceptions but I doubt these can really be considered socialist.). People keep saying: "This isn't true socialism." Well, then true socialism seems to be nothing but a pipe dream that in reality can't be implemented and hence should either be revised or replaced by a better concept.
- foxhedgehog 10y agoJohn Schindler's reporting works as a kind of explainer on why Obama/Clinton/Trump are v. unlikely to pardon him: https://20committee.com/2014/05/31/the-xx-committee-snowden-reader/ https://20committee.com/2014/05/31/the-xx-committee-snowden-...
- hollander 10y agoThat screams conspiracy!
- alphapapa 10y agoWhat's your point?
- jessaustin 10y agoWhat a nut! That's certainly a kind of explainer on why it was better when the nation was run by the people's elected representatives rather than unaccountable unhinged spooks.
- alphapapa 10y agoHe's a nut because...?
- jessaustin 10y agoI didn't read everything, because the universe is still young, but randomly clicking got to this [0] in which this self-proclaimed expert, in stereotypical fashion, veers wildly between claiming secret knowledge that proves him right, claiming that everything important that Snowden released was already well-known, claiming that Snowden's releases harmed USA, and an idiosyncratic form of definite-article-based hermeneutics. That's nutty. Like, Payday-bar-nutty. Greenwald was like, "is this dude serious or just off meds?" Although I do support the elision of the definite article before proper acronyms that signify organizations of questionable ethics. [0] https://storify.com/AthertonKD/greenwald-and-schindler-fistfight-in-secrecy https://storify.com/AthertonKD/greenwald-and-schindler-fistf...
- ComodoHacker 10y agoDoesn't pardoning assume convicting him first? Or does it mean there won't be open trial? I think an open and media covered trial will be more valuable to the public. Not sure about himself.
- bertil 10y agoThe assumption is that he has been convicted by a secret court (FISA).
- marcoperaza 10y agoI think you need to adjust your tinfoil hat. FISA does not have jurisdiction to hear any criminal complaints.
- whamlastxmas 10y agoIt's pretty shitty to throw the term "tinfoil hat" in an argument, especially so when discussing Snowden. It's also pretty silly to make the assumption that there hasn't been some sort of secret equivalent of conviction given everything we've learned about how opaque our government is.
- marcoperaza 10y agoYou're simply wrong. FISA courts exist because Congress created them and gave them jurisdiction. There is no such thing as a secret conviction under US law. There is no such thing as a secret criminal trial, where the accused has no opportunity to defend themselves, under US law. Does not exist period.
- whamlastxmas 10y agoJust like there's no such thing as domestic mass surveillance under US law? And who said he was tried in our criminal court system? If it's a matter of "national security" all due process flies out the window. My point is there is literally no way for you to know and claiming people are wrong and dismissing them with "tin foil" arguments is shitty.
- tomschlick 10y agoI think Snowden is a true patriot for revealing what our government was doing against us. That said, a full pardon isn't going to happen. What they should be shooting for is a fair trial. One that isn't being prosecuted under the Espionage act which would allow his lawyers to use the "for the common good" defense. Under the espionage act it severely limits his affirmative defense options.
- newman8r 10y agoI am for a full pardon. The risks to our privacy are greater now than they have ever been and a lot of people think it will keep us safe. If I knew more about history I'd be tempted to compare it to something like a more insidious version of the cuban missile crisis, but it's probably a bad comparison. Any historians around here - what would you compare it to?
- felice_landry 10y agoI'm not a historian, but consider that the "medium" if you like, the Internet, all it's awful mudpie history of protocols etc, is ripe for the plucking by both sides. Do you stand idly by while the hostile ones (whatever that might mean) use it to their advantage, or do you get your government with their huge funds to help in this regard? The latter, of course. Trouble is when that agency becomes rogue, which it certainly seems like the NSA have, with rubber stamping. But we still need some form of accountable defense I think. It's just gone horribly wrong.
- newman8r 10y agoYeah it's a tough question, and due to the complex nature of the technical and political systems involved, it's probably impossible to simplify/distill the situation down so that ordinary people can have any sort of informed opinion. Right now, people say "give us privacy" because it's a smart thing to say - but they don't understand what they're fighting for so I fear they'll be quick to give up at the first sign of resistance. There might not be a single person in the world who understands all the moving parts well enough to say what's right.
- icecold12741 10y agoThat debate will always be at the forefront of security. In the 19th century, when the first professional police departments were established, people were outraged and convinced that the police were there to take away their liberty. It doesn't excuse all action to improve security, but we do have to occasionally align our security with modern standards. What would happen if we left all cybersecurity (including banks, power systems, etc) to the private sector? And then, where do we draw the line? Is it okay for the FBI to target people who visit a child pornography site? Most would say yes... People who download The Anarchist's Cookbook? Probably another yes. But what about collecting info on the people who supported that whole ordeal with Clive Bundy? Or people who belong to a non-state sponsored militia? That's where the line starts to gray for many. The point being, it's never cut and dry.
- dvcrn 10y agoEven with a official pardon, I highly doubt he could ever return to the US. At some point he might just disappear, or gets into a car crush or things like that. Accidents happen.
- iceman99 10y agoPlease read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold
- ionised 10y agoCare to make a point?
- koolba 10y agoWhether or not Snowden get's pardoned depends on one thing and one thing only: Whether Obama wants it as part of his legacy. Either way it's not going to happen till after the election and most likely not till the end of his term in January. I'd expect it to be more likely for him to be pardoned if Trump is elected as otherwise Clinton, by association, would be dogged with "granting quarter to an enemy of the state".
- mistermumble 10y agoOf the 3 possibilities for granting pardon (Obama, Clinton and Trump), the only real chance for Snowden is Obama.
- koolba 10y ago> Of the 3 possibilities for granting pardon (Obama, Clinton and Trump), the only real chance for Snowden is Obama. Yep. I'd put it as zero with Clinton, non-zero but statistically insignificant with Trump, and 25% with Obama.
- meowface 10y ago25% seems very generous for Obama. He's been very pro-intelligence community from inauguration until now (at least that we know of). But I'd agree he's definitely the only potential hope.
- bshimmin 10y agoI think Trump is in favour of Snowden being executed, isn't he?
- koolba 10y ago> I think Trump is in favour of Snowden being executed, isn't he? I'm not sure but I can imagine him saying that at some point. Still, I'd put him at non-zero because he doesn't have the same political baggage that Clinton would worry about.
- bunkydoo 10y agoI say pardon him at this point, you'd be better off having him in America than somewhere in Russia being forced to leak further info for continued asylum
- nyolfen 10y agoSnowden hasn't leaked anything since 2013. This is kind of a trifling point but it's one that the US government has intentionally misconstrued in the past. Snowden handed off his documents to journalists in HK and hasn't released anything personally. He doesn't have the capacity to release new material because he doesn't possess any of it anymore.
- techgineer 10y agoWhy isn't this on top of some subreddit as well?
- marcoperaza 10y agoEveryone seems to forget that Snowden didn't just leak information about domestic spying, but also about unquestionably legitimate spying on foreign countries. There's no way he gets a pardon for that.
- peterkelly 10y agoThose of us who don't live in the united states have rights too, including that of privacy.
- whamlastxmas 10y ago> unquestionably legitimate Absolutely questionable. There's a concept called "human rights" and just because the US has failed to force unaccountable government agencies into acting in a humane and moral manner doesn't mean that what they're doing is justified. Invasions of privacy on foreign people on such a granular level is abhorrent and that fact hat it's not illegal doesn't mean Snowden did anything wrong by disclosing it.
- marcoperaza 10y agoPrivacy rights for foreigners do not exist under US law. The US cannot allow people with security clearances to just ignore the law, determine what is right and wrong, and take matters into their own hands. How our government treats people in other countries is a matter for the President and Congress, the elected representatives of the American people.
- whamlastxmas 10y agoBasic rights for a lot of people, even our own citizens, do not exist under US law. Even our own prisoners are denied pretty basic rights (solitary confinement for literally years at a time, sometimes over a decade). Felons who have served their time are denied basic rights (voting) in some states. People have spent over a decade in prison without any sort of due process (from contempt of court, being ordered to do something they couldn't). The lack of a law forbidding something is not justification for it being acceptable behavior. >The US cannot allow people... take matters into their own hands That we have a (flawed) systemic and protected whistleblower system says that the government itself disagrees with you. And save your breath if you're going to try to argue Snowden should have used that system - it wasn't available to him despite people trying to argue otherwise.
- tzs 10y agoSnowden will not get pardoned, because (1) exposing illegal domestic spying was only a part of what he leaked, and (2) he admits that he specifically took the job with the intent to get information about NSA hacking of foreign computers to release to journalists in those foreign countries. See this comment someone posted on Reddit for details with links to sources: https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/52k179/edward_snowden_why_barack_obama_should_grant_me_a/d7kv7z7 https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/52k179/edward_sno...
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- awqrre 10y agoI don't see where Snowden said that "he specifically took the job with the intent [...] to release to journalists in those foreign countries"
- tzs 10y ago"My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked. That is why I accepted that position about three months ago." "If I have time to go through this information, I would like to make it available to journalists in each country to make their own assessment, independent of my bias, as to whether or not the knowledge of US network operations against their people should be published."
- whamlastxmas 10y agoThat says he accepted because he wanted access. Not because he wanted to leak the data. There are plenty of legitimate reasons why someone would find it interesting or fulfilling work to get access to machines on such a big scale. It's prestigious if nothing else. It's possible he meant for the purpose of leaking data, but it's wrong to assert it only due to your assumptions.
- tptacek 10y ago
- daddykotex 10y agoI wish we could sign as citizens of other countries.
- khoury 10y agoYou can: https://www.amnesty.org/en/get-involved/take-action/Edward-Snowden-hero-not-traitor/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/get-involved/take-action/Edward-S...
- daddykotex 10y agoOh damn, thanks, I did not know amnesty was on it
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- fetbaffe 10y agoWhy would the Russian connected Trump hunt down a Russian spy?
- c0nducktr 10y ago/s ?
- toxican 10y agoIf we're all popping crazy pills and pretending America is an Orwellian, Stalinist wet dream where people disappear for having dissenting political opinions, why not go all the way and just assume Russia is pulling all the strings?
- tanderson92 10y agoThis implicitly assumes that Trump has any actual Russian loyalties. While it's a popular accusation to throw about, it hasn't exactly been demonstrated. What has been demonstrated is that he admires the authoritarian strong-man style of their leader. That is worrying enough. Oh, and Snowden isn't a Russian spy. ;-)
- fetbaffe 10y agoOkay, maybe not a spy, but an agent. https://20committee.com/2016/06/11/edward-snowden-is-a-russian-agent/ https://20committee.com/2016/06/11/edward-snowden-is-a-russi... "The proper espionage term for Edward Snowden is defector, meaning an employee of an intelligence service who takes up residence in another country whose spies are not friends. Since 1917, every single Western intelligence defector to Moscow has cooperated with the Kremlin, on grounds of quid pro quo. There is no known case of a defector not collaborating with the KGB or its successors. If you want sanctuary, you will tell the Russians everything you know. That is how the spy game works. Any Russian intelligence officer who wants sanctuary in the United States will be required to collaborate with American spy services, including extended debriefings by multiple intelligence agencies. Are we really supposed to believe that Vladimir Putin, former KGB colonel, is more charitable?" https://20committee.com/2016/07/02/the-kremlin-admits-snowden-is-a-russian-agent/ https://20committee.com/2016/07/02/the-kremlin-admits-snowde... "Now, the Kremlin has settled the issue once and for all by stating that Edward Snowden is indeed their man. In a remarkable interview this week, Franz Klintsevich, a senior Russian security official, explained the case matter-of-factly: “Let’s be frank. Snowden did share intelligence. This is what security services do. If there’s a possibility to get information, they will get it.”" Trumps daughter pals with Putin's girlfriend. Just saying.
- kelvin0 10y agoI think there also needs to be a 'Protect all whistle blowers' petition also. A petition to pardon Snowden is a noble goal (IMHO), but there are deep rooted issues which are not addressed by simply pardoning one individual. I wonder why there is no, 'Pardon Chelsea Manning' petition also? Could it be related to transgender issues?
- RRRA 10y agoIf you fear signing this, _and don't_, you really don't understand long risk mitigation and are just preparing yourself to be scared even more in the long run. Just like privacy doesn't exist without others, signing this will at least help by giving strength, and privacy, in numbers. Leaving this resistance alone, as if they were some heroes you respect but won't stand by, is really a cowardly way of being anti society and skipping your citizen duty. First they came for them, etc... You know how it ends.
- benmcnelly 10y agoI don't know what long risk mitigation is, but I'm offended. /s But seriously, nobody at the NSA is going to place* you on a watch list because you are part of a small vocal minority that raised support online for Snowden, a wanted traitor and saboteur of the USA. *There is however a good chance that the money grubbing bastards at one of the third party contractors the NSA eats up reports and analytics from will profile you into something you are not (or lets face it, you are) and that will be ingested into our intelligence pipeline.
- throwaway7767 10y agoI'd be very surprised if the NSA doesn't collect these signatures for later matching. Doesn't mean that you'll have black vans following you around because of it - they have lots of lists for all kinds of things. The most obvious application in this case is that you would be automatically disqualified for a security rating in the future. You'd never get to know the reason of course, you'd just be rejected. EDIT: I still think people should sign of course. Let's not let them win by default by letting our fear control us. Do you really want that security rating if these are the requirements?
- lettergram 10y agoPretty sure regularly visiting hacker news would also raise a flag... I mean seriously, they were flagging people who were on the Linux mailing list and what not. In the end though, if they want you to work for them, security clearance will be granted.
- Overtonwindow 10y agoI cannot sign this. I'm happy there is a debate over our privacy, and the information has come to light, but I still believe this man to be a traitor and he should be punished. A pardon is out of the question.
- rando832 10y agoWhen I read this, it always makes me wonder what is going through your mind: Being a traitor does not mean someone is wrong or deserving of punishment. The implication is that a person's country is always right, and also that if he had been a Russian spy, he would have been a patriot. No. Right and wrong are not governed by national borders and laws.
- JoeAltmaier 10y agoWell, except in law of course. Then, traitor == wrong and deserving of punishment. Its in the US constitution in fact.
- falcolas 10y agoLaws change. The constitution gets amended. There's such a thing as a "positive" defense - guilty, but with a reasonable cause. A jury can even technically nullify a law if they feel it's the right thing to do. Unveiling a trove of illegal projects being undertaken by our government against our wishes would fall into this category in my mind.
- JoeAltmaier 10y agoI wish it were so. But I'm thinking it may be impossible to forgive. Prosecutors may resort the the Supreme Court too. If someone technically guilty of treason is found anything but guilty by a lower court, I don't see the Supreme Court having any alternative but to overturn it. But what do I know.
- mnutt 10y ago
- ekianjo 10y ago> And technology companies around the world have been newly invigorated to protect their customers and strengthen our communications infrastructure. Yet among the supporters, no mention of Larry Page, Zuckerberg, Bezos, Cook, and so on.
- hiharryhere 10y agoOn a practical note, is it possible to pardon someone who hasn't yet been convicted of anything? Presumably Obama could instruct the AG to drop the charges but that wouldn't prevent a future president from pursuing them.
- andrewpi 10y agoYes, it's possible to pardon someone for past unindicted crimes. Nixon was pardoned for Watergate by Gerald Ford, for example.
- nsomaru 10y agoWhere is the question of a pardon if one has not faced trial and been found guilty?
- Dotnaught 10y ago"By taking action you agree to receive occasional email updates from the Pardon Snowden campaign." This alone is enough to deter participation. These campaigns need to separate social action from database building.
- jonlucc 10y agoI'd say the database building is the only important part. The single social action is very unlikely to make an impact, but if they can continue to build a contingent of very interested participants, they can continue to push for their desired outcome.
- jokoon 10y agoI'm still genuinely curious about what the intelligence community thinks of him, if it's bad, what are the arguments against him. I've heard Mike Baker on the Joe Rogan experience say that he did not trust Snowden one bit. In the intelligence world, it's common to be very cautions about leaks since foreign actors like Russia can really benefit politically from such scandal. It can be difficult to really know all the details since it's covered in secrecy, and Snowden himself will knowingly avoid to say too much to reduce the damage. In my view, digital surveillance is a complex issue because people don't really understand how it's done, the west is still waging a war against terror to avoid attacks in land, and agencies will often want to screw the due process to catch terrorists however they can.
- strictnein 10y agoWell his colleagues who lost their jobs because they trusted him probably aren't fans of his.
- kpwagner 10y agoMy conservative friends, not in the intelligence community, really don't like him. They try to be civil, but I can almost hear them hiss when I mention "Snowden". It's odd to me. They don't mind digital surveillance at all. They think it's good if it makes everyone safer. Throwing in my two cents, what interests me on the Snowden topic, is his character. While I'm glad Snowden took the initiative and risk, I don't believe he did it for altruistic reasons: sacrificing himself for the greater good. My opinion is based on seeing and hearing Edward Snowden talk in the documentary "Citizen 4" and other interviews. Many people say, "Look at what he did. He gave up his life in America. He sacrificed everything for no financial reward. He's a hero." It's true he took a big risk; he could still spend a lot of his life in prison. But he has gained huge from this risk. He is famous and respected by many; they're making a fucking movie about him. It reminds me of the line at the end of "The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford": "You know what I expected [after I killed Jesse James]? Applause."
- colemickens 10y agoI really wish I could understand the people that are: 1. "patriotic" but don't respect those who stand up for ideals in the Constitution 2. "anti-government" or "anti-authority" but don't respect those who stand up to challenge the blind power grabs by the government and say things like "fix it from within" (when they would never, ever say the same thing about the IRS, for example) 3. "libertarian" but again, don't actually seem to care about liberties other than the Second Amendmend and finding ways to defund public services so they can pay less taxes. Just seems like a lot of cognitive dissonance at play among the libertarians who don't support Snowden.
- bisRepetita 10y agoWho are these guys? Registrar is in Panama. The site says "partnership with ACLU and Amnesty International", but I cannot find any links from those sites to pardonsnowden.org Both ACLU and AI have their own petition forms with different letters. https://www.amnesty.org/en/get-involved/take-action/edward-snowden-hero-not-traitor/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/get-involved/take-action/edward-s... https://action.aclu.org/secure/grant_snowden_immunity https://action.aclu.org/secure/grant_snowden_immunity Wondering if ACLU and AI are a little late to confirm, or if this is an elaborate attempt to get qualified contacts info.
- dangrossman 10y ago> The American Civil Liberties Union and Amnesty International are ready to launch the "Pardon Snowden" campaign... pardonsnowden.org. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37341804 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37341804
- _jomo 10y agohttps://shop.aclu.org/product/ACLU-Edward-Snowden-Limited-Edition-Shepard-Fairey-Tee?a=snwdotorg https://shop.aclu.org/product/ACLU-Edward-Snowden-Limited-Ed... > Front features artist Shepard Fairey's iconic portrait of Edward Snowden > Back includes ACLU logo and pardonsnowden.org URL
- bisRepetita 10y agoEDIT: Dan below + another source told me this is actually legit.
- steamer25 10y agoHuman Rights Watch press release: https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/09/13/us-obama-should-pardon-edward-snowden https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/09/13/us-obama-should-pardon-e...
- floatrock 10y agoSpot on. The top comment in this thread is paranoia about whether this site is a hostile name collection honeypot (I think if it is, so is commenting on this thread, hello nsa). One way of combatting such paranoia is to establish trust. This site accepts donations, but nowhere does it say WHO is running it. It has neat ACLU, Amnesty International, and HRW logos at the bottom, but anyone can put graphics on a page. It has a whole list of supporters, but all without any citation of their support (you would expect the Chomskys, Lessigs, and Greenwalds, but the Soros are a bit more surprising). This is at best a rushed, uncoordinated release. At worst, it IS a name collection honeypot. If this group does in fact have support of ACLU, AI, and HRW, it should link to those organizations' press releases of this particular domain. If it has the endorsements of popular figures, at the very least link to a tweet of theirs. Snowden should be pardoned because he revealed that in the land of the free, we should always be looking over our shoulder asking if this is an NSA sting job. A good way of fighting that paranoia lifestyle is with credibility. These guys are failing that fight.
- nomercy400 10y agoAnd you think that pardonning him is suddenly make everything okay with his former bosses? I'm pretty sure there are people in high places that feel they've been made a fool of by what he did. If he gets back on US soil, he'll suddenly disappear at a convenient time when the entire country is too busy with other stuff (eg. post-election, superbowl, christmas, some war).
- jessaustin 10y agoEmail Opt-in This label isn't strictly accurate, since the checkbox is checked by default.
- tdhz77 10y agoSnowden is a traitor. He gave up diplomatic cables that hurt our alliances all over the world and most of what he released ended up in Osama Bin Ladens hands. I can't name one good thing that has come from his whistleblowing. Perhaps, you didn't read the Patriot Act? It's pretty easy to see this guy basically said hey they are using the Patriot Act... Silly.
- wepple 10y agoSnowden didn't directly release anything; he relied upon the Media to apply filters to what should and shouldn't be public. And they've done a reasonable job at that. > I can't name one good thing that has come from his whistleblowing. You think there is absolutely no value whatsoever in awareness that particular mechanisms were going against your rights to privacy?
- verisimilidude 10y agoCan't tell if you're joking or not. But just in case you're not... Osama Bin Laden was killed in May 2011. Snowden handed the NSA documents to journalists in May 2013. Needless to say, Bin Laden never saw the Snowden disclosures. Snowden did not release the diplomatic cables. That was Manning via Wikileaks, and that happened in November 2010. Snowden didn't even dump his documents, he gave them to journalists. Many good things have come from the Snowden disclosures, among them a much increased awareness of our digital privacy, and important conversations around privacy vs. security in the new century. But if you need concrete examples, the disclosures have also led to reforms like the USA Freedom Act. If you're serious, please, go die somewhere. If you're trolling, I think you bit off too much here. The density of misinformation, while impressive in its own way, is too much to be believable.
- tdhz77 10y agolol
- friede 10y agoMight be we should also campaign to give Snowden the peace nobel price.
- aws_ls 10y agoI think there have been one such campaign at least in the past few years. But I totally agree, there should be continuous campaigns till he gets one, and by then if he is not pardoned, it will be a big embarrassment to the US government.
- kaosmos 10y agoI'd like to sign the petition. I generally try not to think too much about implications of free opinion actions, to avoid these worries stop me from voicing my opinions. In these case also I'm not an US citizen so it is somewhat easier to do. But looks like only US citizens are allowd to sign this. Do you think that the signature of a non US citizen worths something?
- balabaster 10y agoPfft, the form itself has mandatory fields, but doesn't seem to check the veracity of any of them... just put your name, put random content in any of the fields you're uncomfortable giving information for, choose California and 90210 as the ZIP and it'll let you submit.
- eternalban 10y agoHow do you know this guy (and the whole set of characters and institutions that he legitimizes -- Greenwald, Omidyar & co, Washington Post, Guardian, the Intercept, the 'blessed' crypto, etc.) -- are on the up and up? Everything about this story, its central "hero", and the cast of characters of the show, smells imo.
- jordanlev 10y agoWhat's your point? Regardless of the personalities involved, I don't think anyone has refuted the facts of the leaked documents. Yes, humans are human and nobody is a perfect angel or robot ... but what does that have to do with the facts of what was released?
- eternalban 10y agoLet's review the leak: * NSA spies on foreign governments. Isn't that their job? * NSA spies on Americans, & has compromised infrastructure. Your first assumption here is that the ruling elite won't want you to know that. Have you ever considered they wanted you to know without official acknowledgement? Go find an oldhand AT&T geek and ask them about the telephony and NSA. > Regardless of the personalities involved You would have a point if Snowden had released the material to non-corporate actors (how about UN's human rights commission) and wasn't on the talking head [1] road show pontificating on various matters. If the actor is false then the road show is a cause for concern, don't you agree? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you're_a_dog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_... I want to see a pic of our hero in Moscow, holding today's edition of whatever passes for journalism in Russia, posted to twitter, to start with.
- icecold12741 10y agoAnother point to be made is that while they say that "much has changed due to his actions" not all has been positive. Several court cases came out after this affirming the idea that you have no "reasonable expectation of privacy" for any internet-facing machine. In fact, the District Court in Virginia this month said that the FBI had the legal right to install malware on the computer of someone who visited a child pornography site. The ruling basically stated that in the modern era of technology, the general consensus is that no public-facing technology is safe from exploitation, so by using it (it being a computer), he acknowledged the risk that everything he did would be made available for observation from a 3rd party (whether a company or the government). Google won a case a few years ago to the same effect. They were sued for scanning a private business' e-mail traffic and using it to target advertising. That court also ruled that if it was unencrypted communication, moving across "public" lines, then it was fair game for anyone who could intercept it.
- ihsw 10y agoI am Canadian and I cannot sign this due to the address form being confined to US addresses. Just putting this out there for any future endeavors of this kind.
- segmondy 10y agoThese digital signatures are the equivalent of chain letters, send this to 100 people and your wish will come true. If we as a people want to make change, we should use the net to organize people to make change in the real world not the digital world. Make time, get in the streets, protest, actually pick up the phone and call your politicians, write to them, write to the government. Overwhelm them so much that they are forced to say yes. Presidents and politicians wish to be loved, they are like Emperors, they want to appease the people. If they people make plenty of noise, they cave.
- ohthehugemanate 10y agoAs someone who has done strategy for NGOs for years... the petition doesn't make change, of course not. It makes a mailing list with consistency bias in the NGO's favor. Once you've signed a useless petition, you are MUCH more likely to do the next thing they ask of you. Tell a friend, donate money, call a politician, attend a rally, whatever. It is a very important tool, but it is a gateway tool.
- whamlastxmas 10y agoLooking forward to donating when they accept bitcoin. I have no expectation he'll be pardoned, but the other important thing here is that there's a documented movement for it. History will show that people wanted this and Obama and Hillary/Trump refused it. It will be more difficult for blind patriotic bias to weasel its way into the history books.
- icecold12741 10y agoHistory is written by the victor. There was a large number of people who did not want the US to secede from Britain (including John Adams) but the history books (as given to the normal population) show us a proud group of united patriots who struck out against their oppressors... More recently, the "greatest generation" signed up for WWII in droves, right? Actually over 50% were drafted with another estimated 100,000 Americans injuring themselves or fleeing the country to avoid the draft...
- whamlastxmas 10y agoTo be fair, anything near a 50% volunteer rate for a real war is pretty fucking impressive. I'd definitely be a draft dodger.
- threeseed 10y agoThis is based on the assumption that people support Snowden. No evidence one way or another that this is true.
- mcs 10y agowhistleblower protection?
- daveloyall 10y agoI can't edit the letter before submitting it... Is it my browser?
- msl09 10y agoPardon my paranoia but, who's running this campaign?
- daveloyall 10y agoJust being nosy... here's the source of the page (post render) piped through sed 's/^[ \t]?//;s/></>\n<'|egrep '(form|input)' <form method="post" id="takeActionForm" action="/take-action"> <input type="hidden" id="FormId" name="FormId" value="27448"> <input type="hidden" id="AdditionalAdvocateFormId" name="AdditionalAdvocateFormId" value="27452"> <input type="hidden" id="EngagementId" name="EngagementId" value="236633"> <input type="hidden" id="UserAgentHeader" name="UserAgentHeader" value="Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/35.0.1916.114 Safari/537.36"> <input type="hidden" id="UserIpAddress" name="UserIpAddress" value="22.40.531.428"> EDIT: I shuffled my valid external IP address... <input type="hidden" id="RefererHeader" name="RefererHeader" value="https://www.pardonsnowden.org/"> <input type="hidden" id="RedirectToAction" name="RedirectToAction" value="Donate2"> <input type="hidden" data-val="true" data-val-required="The DisplayCampaignSubscribeLanguage field is required." id="DisplayCampaignSubscribeLanguage" name="DisplayCampaignSubscribeLanguage" value="True"> <input type="hidden" data-val="true" data-val-required="The DisplayThanksForDonation field is required." id="DisplayThanksForDonation" name="DisplayThanksForDonation" value="False"> <input type="text" data-val="true" data-val-maxlength="The field * First Name must be a string or array type with a maximum length of '60'." data-val-maxlength-max="60" data-val-required="The * First Name field is required." id="FirstName" name="FirstName" value=""> <input type="text" data-val="true" data-val-maxlength="The field * Last Name must be a string or array type with a maximum length of '60'." data-val-maxlength-max="60" data-val-required="The * Last Name field is required." id="LastName" name="LastName" value=""> <input type="text" data-val="true" data-val-maxlength="The field * Address Line 1 must be a string or array type with a maximum length of '255'." data-val-maxlength-max="255" data-val-required="The * Address Line 1 field is required." id="Address1" name="Address1" value=""> <input type="text" data-val="true" data-val-maxlength="The field Address Line 2 must be a string or array type with a maximum length of '255'." data-val-maxlength-max="255" id="Address2" name="Address2" value=""> <input type="text" data-val="true" data-val-maxlength="The field * City must be a string or array type with a maximum length of '250'." data-val-maxlength-max="250" data-val-required="The * City field is required." id="City" name="City" value=""> <input type="text" class="select-dropdown" readonly="true" data-activates="select-options-9f05dea8-21fe-9153-1eed-9b52a0b1255f" value="Alabama"> <input type="text" data-val="true" data-val-maxlength="The field * ZIP Code must be a string or array type with a maximum length of '30'." data-val-maxlength-max="30" data-val-required="The * ZIP Code field is required." id="Zip" name="Zip" value=""> <input type="email" data-val="true" data-val-email="The * Email Address field is not a valid e-mail address." data-val-maxlength="The field * Email Address must be a string or array type with a maximum length of '250'." data-val-maxlength-max="250" data-val-required="The * Email Address field is required." id="EmailAddress" name="EmailAddress" value=""> <input checked="checked" data-val="true" data-val-required="The I agree to receive occasional emails from the ACLU, our campaign partner. field is required." id="aclu" name="AcluOptIn" type="checkbox" value="true"> <input name="__RequestVerificationToken" type="hidden" value="CfDJ8NLtLyWwUzRIooGDwJFKIrt9vYAjiCpeZejgvGQHEf2k-wesrFUsmYg4qRtQqkfPwiEKAwh2k4kcf6IWPVfAsnHRaU_XfsRXCICY7oFAfiNFWVkaIi2Z5kJi6gdHw44Ht2y2Gigzh3UmtkUigpw62uU"> <input name="AcluOptIn" type="hidden" value="false"> </form> ...So, AcluOptIn is being forced to false? I guess we can give them the benefit of the doubt and presume that my http client information is being saved to prevent automated form submissions?
- bayesian_horse 10y agoOne of the problems I see with this is that Snowden probably is an asset/agent of the Russian FSB at the moment. Quite possibly he already was one at the time of his defection.
- halis 10y agoThat's a great idea. He did break the law, but he alerted this country to things that we need to be aware of. I fully support a pardon for him and will sign it.
- hacknat 10y agoI don't agree with Snowden's actions completely, but, on the whole, he acted in good faith. I think the mass dump was a little ill advised, and he maybe could have thrown his lot in with slightly more responsible journalists who could have arbitrated what would be useful for the public to know a little more judiciously (I like Greenwald, but he can be unreasonable sometimes). However, on the whole I think it was for the good. I think its important to remember that he didn't have a lot of time to act once he started down this road, so I'm sure some hasty decisions were made.
- frandroid 10y agoHe didn't mass-dump like Wikileaks does though; Greenwald has been dripping out the vetted content over time..
- nickpsecurity 10y agoNo, he mass-dumped domestic and foreign operations... including those used on highest-value targets... onto foreign journalists intent to publish best of it. That either equivalent to what Manning did or pretty close. They latter published lots of this with real consequences for NSA's SIGINT. He also didn't have to.
- kkotak 10y agoCan Obama really pardon Snowdon? If so, I'd think that he can be arrested again for something or the other by the next power.
- nojvek 10y agoWhy does the site need a Donate button shoved in my face. Auto opt-in to mail list is also selected. Also for a petition do they really need my home address and rest of the details? Shouldn't name and email suffice. Happy to sign the petition but not at this site. Is there a way I can send a letter myself to the president?
- em3rgent0rdr 10y agoI can understand why an address might be necessary to coorberate that some random signer from the internet matches to an physical US address. But after I signed, it presented a donate page. I don't want to give them money since they have my addresses. They would have been more likely to get my money if they provided an anonymous donation portal.
- jrochkind1 10y agoChelsea Manning needs it more, and in my opinion is just as much deserving of a pardon. I wish Manning was getting more attention and pressure for a pardon.
- drjesusphd 10y agoWhile I also agree Manning deserves a pardon, to be fair, he was significantly more careless than Snowden. Basically all the arguments (lies) they use to damn Snowden can be fairly applied to Manning.
- rbanffy 10y agoCarelessness should have nothing to do with it. It's even more urgent to pardon her because she is already incarcerated.
- maerF0x0 10y agoCarelessness matters a great deal! The risks/damage to the security of the country are tied to the care of what and to whom things are revealed. Its the same reason Hillary should be tried, she was ignorant and careless w/ secure information.
- rbanffy 10y agoWould you like to be specific about the damage?
- maerF0x0 10y agofor example blindly releasing/disclosing/leaking documents to the public can endanger in field operatives. Vs a reporter should be smart enough to redact the sensitive bits and report in a general enough way as to not endanger any specific person (in the field).
- 10y ago
- partycoder 10y agoA pardon would be very unlikely. Since Snowden is being "made example of" to prevent similar whistleblowing and leaking activity. Even if the government pardons him, the country is full of armed lunatics on meds, he wouldn't be safe.
- known 10y agoI've just signed the petition;
- nsvir 10y agoCan't sign, I am french :(
- nsvir 10y agocan't sign, I am french :(
- youdontknowtho 10y agoI'm all for pardoning Snowden. I think he should probably have to testify at some kind of congressional hearing so that there is a record...but he should be pardoned. I wonder though...is this site some kind of marketing for the movie, though?
- murbard2 10y agoPardoning Snowden implies he did something wrong. apologizetosnowden.org
- dllthomas 10y agoPardoning Snowden implies he did something in violation of US law. If a pardon is a moral judgement at all, it is a judgement that what was done was not wrong.
- murbard2 10y agoI'm aware. I'm pointing out that using the word "pardon" is pretty Orwellian given that in normal parlance it means forgive and thus implies fault.
- abrkn 10y agoThey need to add a Bitcoin option for donations so we can donate without risking a lifetime of issues with the TSA and other government agencies
- FraggleKing 10y agoI'm not sure on this but isn't the election within November? The count down showcased on the site is counting from 127days. Putting the end date at January 19, 2017. I'm wondering what Obama can/could do post election? I'm not from the US for please for give any ignorance.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- cureyourhead 10y agoWell he was a patsy so pardoning him reduces the risk he will blow true story of the most successful increase in intelligence gathering capacity since WWII... So there's that. Pardon him for sure. And never doubt he's a patriot. But he doesn't believe in openness. He helped usher in a new age of secrecy. I think that's a good thing. I also think people should actually know the real.
- cureyourhead 10y agoThe story of Snowden being a patsy is going to come out. It will be even more entertaining than the snowdengate tale act 1. But it will probably come out in 20 years.
- anigbrowl 10y agoYou can't pardon someone who hasn't been convicted of anything, or even tried. Why are so many hackers unwilling to learn the basics of civics? The governmental system we have sucks, but if you're going to petition for people to act within that framework then the least you could do is develop a basic working knowledge of it first. It is neither legally possible nor politically feasible for President Obama to pardon Snowden. To attempt to do so pre-emptively would be grounds for impeachment. Cripes, I'm not even American and I'm getting really tired of explaining legal & civic fundamentals to Americans who didn't pay any attention to the topic in school. Are so many of you really so dense that your critical thinking skills can be suspended by presenting you with a pretty landing page? Wake the fuck up.
- dllthomas 10y ago> Why are so many hackers unwilling to learn the basics of civics? ahem The two probably-most-famous pardons in American history - Ford's pardon of Nixon and Carter's pardon of draft dodgers - affected unindicted individuals (Carter's included people who had been convicted, but also included plenty of individuals where no action had been taken). And those are not the only two examples. It is legally possible for President Obama to pardon Snowden. You are simply factually incorrect as it comes to American governance. Many of us did pay attention in school (and many of us researched carefully afterwards).
- anigbrowl 10y agoBoth of those examples strike me as political rather than legal actions - that is, I question the legality but political considerations moot the issue - but your point is well made.
- Inlinked 10y agoTo pardon Snowden seems like a very popular opinion around here. Can anyone help me change my opinion on this matter? The way I currently see it: - Snowden indiscriminately hovered up so many documents, it was impossible to vet all of them. - The vast majority of these documents do not constitute whistleblowing, but are standard operating procedure for the NSA. The US expects the NSA to do this. - Leaking standard-operating-procedure documents damaged the NSA, and thus the security / defense of the US. - Snowden did not attempt to go through internal channels. - Snowden leaked / whistleblowed these documents in an operation using his secret agent skills. - Snowden fled to Russia, a currently not-so-cold competitor of the US. - Snowden's documents ended up in the hands of Russian and Chinese intelligence agencies. - Snowden's innocent leaks, such as the entire Intellipedia, damaged the intelligence community, causing them to "clam up", and place more mistrust on "outsiders", such as high-school diploma Snowden. - Snowden gave the document cache to incompetent journalists. Greenwald send his boyfriend to smuggle documents through British customs. If Snowden had given only the slides on the NSA spying on American citizens, and cooperating with US companies, that would have been whistleblowing. As it stands, to me, it feels like a Russian operation to inflict PR/diplomacy damage on the US. I have a lot of respect for whistleblowers, and also for Snowden. What he did is nothing short of heroic. But I do not believe in a pardon for someone who misuses his admin privileges to download all the documents he could get his hands on, then flees to Russia. What's missing for me?
- e12e 10y ago> - Snowden did not attempt to go through internal channels. See Binney, eg: "William Binney HOPE 9 KEYNOTE": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqN59beaFMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqN59beaFMI The "internal channels" have been broken for years, and do not work. Snowden was aware of this, and AFAIR has commented on that on several occasions. > - Snowden gave the document cache to incompetent journalists. Greenwald send his boyfriend to smuggle documents through British customs. What? Incompetent? They managed to do their job, in the face of GCHQ and the NSA. Just because they made some mistakes, that doesn't make them "incompetent". If they were, we wouldn't have heard anything at all! > - Snowden leaked / whistleblowed these documents in an operation using his secret agent skills. So, being competent is a strike against Snowden, but being incompetent is a strike against Greenwald (who presumably doesn't have any training from GCHQ)? > - The vast majority of these documents do not constitute whistleblowing, but are standard operating procedure for the NSA. The US expects the NSA to do this. Everyone who was paying attention knew a lot about the clearly illegal stuff that NSA have been doing, from previous leaks - that doesn't mean the leaks didn't have value. > I do not believe in a pardon for someone who misuses his admin privileges to download all the documents he could get his hands on, then flees to Russia. The first part was in my eyes a prerequisite for having a sizable useful set of documents to leak. The second part is really two parts: he fled - he didn't submit himself to capture, torture and/or assassination in the US. He did this by fleeing to Hong Kong. Then he went to Russia, the only port within reach that offered sanctuary. I'm ashamed that Norway didn't - for example. But of course we're NATO allies, and with the not too distant history of Mossad carrying out a botched assassination (successful kill, wrong person) on Norwegian soil, and Norway being complicit in extralegal detention and torture by allowing CIA's "white planes" to transit through - it would probably have been hopelessly naive for Snowden to try to flee here, even if offered "safe passage".
- erwinkle 10y agoI will not support Snowden. He invaded the government's privacy by releasing those documents.
- awqrre 10y agoI signed the petition at whitehouse.gov that got about 142,000 signatures... it didn't help much but I will take action here too.
- BFatts 10y agoI don't think he should be pardoned. He claims that it's because he helped the public see the sinister plot of our government and their internal spying. Ok, fine. So, should we have pardoned Jack Ruby (if he were alive) for killing the guy that killed JFK? No. Why does Snowden deserve any different treatment. He still release confidential information. It's not like what he did can just excuse that fact. He exposed US spying, internally, externally, around the globe. He didn't just focus on the US... No pardon. Doesn't deserve it. Just my opinion.
- cwkoss 10y agoBecause making public the knowledge that our government is illegally surveilling the entire population is in the public interest. He tried to stop violations from within, and when that was ineffective he used the only other recourse he had.
- vineetch 10y agoDid you just compare murder to whistleblowing?
- kristopolous 10y agoIn this case, people were knowingly breaking the law and stamping "confidential" on the evidence. You can't just go about breaking any law and cover your tracks by labeling it with something you paid $4.99 for on vistaprint ... what an absurd position to defend.
- dredmorbius 10y agoRuby protected nobody, and thwarted a possibly avenue of information on the Kennedy assassination. Snowden has done a service to the world, revealing the threats they're under (through both the NSA and any other entity which could exploit the weaknesses they use), and promoted a great deal of relevant and useful information into the public discussion. As you've just conceded. Snowden may have broken regulations, and may have broken laws. But he served both the US Constitution, and the cause of Justice. Regulations, laws, and the NSA, serve the Constitution and justice. A pardon is a means for correcting instances where laws fail to serve justice. Your comparison makes less than zero sense.
- pbarnes_1 10y agoI love the black and white nature of this. A crime is a crime even if done for good. But I like Snowden. Tough call.
- dllthomas 10y ago> A crime is a crime even if done for good. “One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.” ― Martin Luther King Jr. It is true that the law said it was illegal for Snowden to do what he did. It is also the case that the law allows for a pardon.
- maerF0x0 10y agoEven if pardoned how could he ever come back? Surely they will paint a target on his forehead and "oops" casualty of a car accident or maybe he magically gets cancer etc.
- CantThink 10y agoAdmired The brave!!! Respect the braver!!! Snowden. Long live Snowden.
- mLuby 10y agoNot a fan of how much information the PardonSnowden.org form asks for.
- CantThink 10y agoRespect the brave!!! Admire the braver!!! LONG LIVE SNOWDEN
- matchagaucho 10y agoPardoning Snowden would still leave too many unanswered questions. If he's innocent, then a trial would clear the air. Otherwise, future IT workers will believe mass exporting SharePoint/file servers as leverage is acceptable. While "rule of least privilege" is a good default access control policy; Gov and corporate IT departments are now over compensating their sharing policies due to the precedence Snowden has set.
- nickpsecurity 10y ago"Pardoning Snowden would still leave too many unanswered questions. If he's innocent, then a trial would clear the air." That's not true given it's Espionage Act. The ridiculous setup of that Act essentially says he can be hit with highest charges, not provide anything classified for his defense, have released entirely legitimate stuff, and still get convicted due to technicality of the law. Plus, our legal system is an adversarial one not designed to bring out truth: prosecutors aim for convictions while attempting to dismiss anything that undermines it. Best way to get truth, like him or not, is a pardon where he can say anything with immunity. If he's bad and ego-heavy, he'll slip up eventually. He already does on some things while enjoying the interviews too much. ;)
- tn13 10y agoPeople on H1B, Green-cards, who might be dealing TSA, USCICS, IRS for any reason etc. better not sign this one.
- sarah180 10y agoI always wish there were a way to vote "no" on these things.
- yandrypozo 10y agothe donation pop-up is broken :(
- Andrey_Filippov 10y agoI think Obama should not just pardon Snowden, but nominate him to a position of NSA director. Snowden is both a top professional and cares about our rights and freedoms. NSA is still needed (in some form) in the real world, and I would definitely feel safer if Snowden was at its controls.
- rayvd 10y agoSeeing mostly downvotes for those not in agreement with the herd. I, too, do not support a pardon. He should stand trial, and if he in fact broke laws should pay the penalty. I wouldn't want to set a legal precedent that it's OK to join one of our intelligence agencies and leak information.
- bleair 10y agoIs this petition being championed by the ACLU? Would donating to the ACLU be more effective in affecting real pressure? Just like subscribing to Linux Journal, or running a tor node, if you sign this petition your information will end up on a list of "person to keep tabs on".
- jondubois 10y agoThey should add a simple 'Approve' or 'Like' button on the page. On the website, I clicked on the 'TAKE ACTION' button and for about half a second I actually considered writing a "letter to the president"... but then I came to my senses and realized that I don't actually know ANY of these people. I approve of the idea of Snowden and the idea of Obama pardoning him but this is all very abstract in my mind... Feels like writing a letter to Santa Claus.
- xupybd 10y agoI'm not sure he deserves a pardon. Yes he did some good blowing the whistle on survalence but he crossed the line releasing everything else.
- danielrm26 10y agoMy opinion of what we should do with Snowden. Not quite a pardon, but almost. https://danielmiessler.com/blog/what-us-should-do-edward-snowden/ https://danielmiessler.com/blog/what-us-should-do-edward-sno...
- trevorhinesley 10y ago"Why do you ask for my address when I donate? We need your address to process your credit card payment. This lets our payment processor (Stripe) verify your identity and process your payment. We don't ask for information beyond what's required by Stripe. The people at the pardon campaign will be able to see your name, email address and physical address, but we will never see your financial data. Here is Stripe's privacy policy; here is our privacy policy." That's a straight up lie. Stripe does not require physical address, it's entirely optional. Know what you're signing yourself up for.
- id122015 10y agoIts the first petition that I find worth signing. I did it through Amnesty Intl as I dont live in the US. Only with an email address I dont know how credible the petition is, I wanted to prove that I'm standing up and supporting him. We either die all together like Maya, or we win. I didnt understand where the money from donations go, but I could donate also for the right cause.
- davesque 10y agoI know that I'm putting my name on a dissenters list, but isn't that kind of the point? I hate how it's become this casual reality that the government is always working behind the scenes to further its own interests, often regardless of the actual benefit to the average citizen. Today's political climate is like the fever that our society is enduring to effect change. Honestly, I'm not sure why Obama would not do this. I mean, I know why everyone thinks he wouldn't but the sense that there is something to lose, as though the favor of all these Washington back scratchers was worth anything, seems really just like an illusion. Obama doesn't seem to me like an insider. He seems to me just like a guy I'd have a beer with who has a solid head on his shoulders. I believe there's a part of him that would just love to do this and believes it is right. I guess we'll see what happens.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- bbcbasic 10y agoThread now in position 11 by upvote count https://hn.algolia.com/?query=&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?query=&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page...
- gremlinsinc 10y agoI think maybe we should re-think the method of whistleblowing -- I think the best way in the current climate would be to leak to congress first, if nobody responds, hold a press conference (from Russia) -- and let them know the nature of evidence you have, and that you want whistleblower protection and then you'll go before congress and divulge the full nature... -- everyone in government should at least be able to see the nature, then they can leak/share whatever won't hurt national sec interests, --but it'll still get a lot of the issues out front and center... --though I still support Snowden in a big way--if it were me--something like that would be better, and provide less liability. But they could definitely use a government whistleblower protection mechanism... But good luck with that.
- glasz 10y agoi mean we should try. but after 8 bloody years of that dick head in office, ppl really think there's any fruit to pick?
- perseusprime11 10y agoSnowden has become a pop culture icon for this generation. I don't know if it makes sense to punish him given the kind of debate he was able to create in the last few years.