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"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of li

• Havoc 11y ago
  >There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than alive in Switzerland. Thats a little bit disingenuous comparing absolute numbers of countries with very different sizes. I do agree that they're outliers though - seems very difficult to duplicate.
  • bdcravens 11y ago
    As disingenuous as comparing a small country to the US as a whole.
    • Havoc 11y ago
      >As disingenuous as comparing a small country to the US as a whole. Why? Countries seem to scale pretty well. A social structure that works well in one city can work well in 200 cities.
      • bdcravens 11y ago
        We regularly see startups do a belly flop when they scale from 5 employees to 50, yet somehow what works for a country 1/5 the population and 1/10 the size of California could apply to all 50 states?
      • jareds 11y ago
        A social structure that works well in a city of 100000 people will not be able to work the same way as a city with a population of close to 4000000.
        • Havoc 11y ago
          Again, I don't see why it can't scale. Whether you've got 50 blocks of city employing a specific social structure or 500 blocks at a ground level its the same. Granted mega cities add a level of complexity, but on a very broad level I don't see why people here thing you can't scale a system employed by a 8m country to say 80m. Its just more of the same.
          • IkmoIkmo 11y ago
            Well just compare a large company with tens of thousands of people, to a small one, the smaller ones are much more nimble and able to implement new best practices. Imagine you had 1 team of 10 people working on ABC, or 100 groups of 10 people, working on ABC, yet having to cooperate between groups. It's really hard, it creates all kinds of friction, you need all kinds of overhead human capital to organise everything, everything moves slower, there's more resistance to change, and various of the smaller groups create their own working cultures and approaches, and squaring all of that into one cohesive vision is really tricky. Then consider that companies are relatively dictatorial compared to the runnings of most OECD countries, where a CEO has more power to simply lay down a vision and expect everyone to get behind it, much more than a president or prime minister doing so. I think that's mostly it. For a more academic approach look up diseconomies of scale, although I'm sure you're already familiar... It also applies to government. I do agree with you though, to a large extent I think we can scale, but there are limits and disadvantages at some point. Beyond that I think to a large extent the differences can be numerically explained. It's not true that small countries do best across the board. Germany does better than Italy, Kenya does better than Malawi, China does better than Vietnam who does better than Cambodia etc... all larger countries that do better. But imagine you have a list of 10 'large' countries, and 100 'small countries'. Obviously the large are less common, after all only two countries have more than 1 billion people, no other ones more than 500m, only 3 other countries have more than 200m, while more than 100 countries have less than 10 million people. So imagine 10 large and 100 small countries, and they're randomly distributed. The chance of a small country in the top 10 is very large, as it is to be in the bottom 10, while for large countries the chance is really small to simply end up anywhere. Yet if you break up the US into 100 little regions of a few million people, like about 80 countries on the planet, similar to say Norway, Singapore, Finland (all 5m ish people), or Iceland (300k), you'd surely have many of those little regions hitting top 10 rankings for standard of living. Places like greater San Fransisco would probably do quite well.
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• rsync 11y ago
  Exactly. I really do love switzerland, but a proper comparison would be to say, Marin County or Boulder or La Jolla. I think our pockets of "switzerland" stand up pretty well in comparison.
  • SomeCallMeTim 11y ago
    I've lived in all three of those locations, and I have to agree that there is awesomeness in all three. There's also crap, though; all three are only awesome if you're toward the top of the earning spectrum. And even then the vacation allocations (and the guilt tripping related to using vacation) are pathetic, pretty universally in the US (with a few notable exceptions, but even those rarely give you a MONTH OFF every year and expect you to TAKE IT). Until we have free health care and more standard vacation time and less expected overtime, there will be no Switzerland in the US. Only privileged rich people living in enclaves have their own Switzerland experience. For all intents and purposes I'm one of those at this point, for what it's worth. I can take my extended vacations now (between contracts), and a few people I know will take an unpaid month away from work every few years. If I work overtime, it's for a high hourly rate for every hour I spend (depending on project type and client, between $150-$250/hour). But the majority of people, even here in Boulder, still have a max 2 weeks of vacation a year, unpaid mandatory overtime, and pretty pathetic salaries to boot (considering the cost of living). Hardly paradise. Certainly not Switzerland, for them.
  • alkonaut 11y ago
    Few in the US who make a lot of money seem to spend it on working 80% rather than on buying a big house or a nicer car. The quality of life difference is cultural, not economical.
    • plonh 11y ago
      Doctors and small practice lawyers work 80%... School employees get summers off...
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  • 11y ago
• cjsthompson 11y ago
  France and Germany have a higher standard of living than the U.S. In fact except Greece, Italy and Spain all European countries have a higher standard of living than the U.S.. Face it you are the third world compared to Europe. Ooooh, those poor little jingoistic feewings are butthurt... :D
  • notforeal 11y ago
    As someone who lived in Portugal...nope
    • cjsthompson 11y ago
      Sorry, I forgot Portugal.
  • rhino369 11y ago
    No they don't. They have higher standards for the lower classes. America has a higher standard of living but is far more sink or swim.
    • Mikeb85 11y ago
      The lower classes' standard of living is all that matters. If you're rich, you can live especially well even in 3rd world countries (where servants are cheap and anything can be paid for).
      • WalterSear 11y ago
        The world is not a dichotomy. There's a whole load of people between rich and poor who's standard of living can be poor, despite their relative wealth.
        • Mikeb85 11y ago
          My point is that to measure a single country's progress, you need to measure the quality of life for the working class, minorities, retirees, etc... That's why things like health care, transport infrastructure, PPP, median and average salaries, etc... are all factored in to quality of life rankings. And why the US isn't the best country to live in. Obviously there's many people between homeless and billionaires, but I was responding to a post that claimed the US' quality of life was better because of the potential to live well.
• Vespasian 11y ago
  Well at least having 20+ days of paid vacation and (compard to the US) cheap health care is a thing in many european countries
  • masklinn 11y ago
    20 days paid vacation is the legal EU baseline, FWIW. Most of europe is at or above 5 weeks when you include legal holidays.
    • Vespasian 11y ago
      Yes you're right of course. 6 Weeks here + quite some legal holidays
• letitgo12345 11y ago
  Also looking at PPP per capita (59K vs 53K), it's not that much higher. Norway, I'm not sure should count given their large oil reserves which one cannot really replicate.
  • enraged_camel 11y ago
    10% is actually a pretty significant disparity when you consider the fact that both are developed countries.
  • digi_owl 11y ago
    The oil is a curse rather than a boon.
    • jeffreyrogers 11y ago
      How? Oil is largely the reason Norway is better off than Denmark and Sweden. Norway seems to manage it's oil very well with an eye towards the long term.
      • alkonaut 11y ago
        From the perspective of swedes, we just notice the higher prices in norway. We don't consider Norway and the norwegians "rich" when we visit. The per-capita gdp doesn't translate to purchasning power.
      • digi_owl 11y ago
        Pretty much the whole damn coast has come to a screeching halt as the oil price drops. This because Everything is tied directly or indirectly to the continued extraction of oil and gas. Anything else is a minority industry that can barely keep going because the oil export is driving the exchange rate through the roof. This to the point that the government is fearful of doing anything major or else the exchange rate will really go out of whack. Here is the thing, public buildings are disintegrating around us while the continued line out of the politicians is that we need to save "for future generations". If you want to care for future generations you build, and you maintain what you build. But no, we must "save it for the future". Damn it, we have basically turned Poland into a factory for "Norwegian" products. If you glance at a "Norwegian" chocolate bar these days it is likely to read "made in Poland".
• hans0l074 11y ago
  Since 2001 I've lived and worked in Finland, Denmark & Sweden. Achieving a healthy & meaningful work-life balance is emphasized in the Nordic countries (I do not know about Luxembourg) The authors experience in Switzerland strikes a familiar chord with me. I have close friends in the Valley who envy me because I get 6 weeks a year off. I don't think this article is necessarily about high salaries and the luxuries you can afford with that salary (and I'm not saying that that was what you were saying) but I have come to believe that there is a better work-life balance in certain northern european countries than anywhere in the U.S.A (I'm willing to be corrected of course) especially when it comes to maternity and paternity leave. In discussions like these, I am reminded of a video my American friend sent me a while ago : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzXze5Yza8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzXze5Yza8
  • digi_owl 11y ago
    Sadly there are concerted political effort being focused on going American in the Nordics, as the current system is considered "inefficient". Even the supposed left is in on the game, pulling a double talk akin to UK's Labor...
    • Cthulhu_ 11y ago
      That's because the benefits are expensive, from a capitalistic point of view - six weeks maternity leave? That's six weeks of lost productivity! I think it's important that everyone keeps defending the liberties and rights that we (in Europe) have right now - and that the people in the US that just accept their shitty working environments because it's considered normal fight it, and demand what I think is getting basic human rights like caring for your newborn without losing your job or getting into financial trouble over it.
  • Amezarak 11y ago
    > I have come to believe that there is a better work-life balance in certain northern european countries than anywhere in the U.S.A It really depends. I know several companies offering 6 weeks of paid leave, plus holidays, in my area. On the other hand, that's certainly not the norm. There are many people working jobs which provide no paid holidays or vacation. At my previous job it was expected that you'd work overtime and weekends if anything remotely important was going on (and not get flex time or anything like that to make up for it) for no extra pay. At my current job there is no such expectation at all and nobody does it. Critical events wait until Monday. My perception is things are especially bad in startup culture/the valley, but that's not necessarily representative of the US. I think the real difference between the US and European Country X is the lack of any universal minimum standards in the US. There is the federal minimum wage and the FMLA, and that's about it. There is no federal requirement for paid leave or maternity benefits. But there are plenty of jobs with paid leave and maternity benefits (other than FMLA unpaid leave). So in reality, the work/life balance in America differs dramatically by locale, industry, and company.
• staz 11y ago
  The three first Google results for 'Quality of Life index' put the USA at the 16, 12 and 10th place. While salary in Italy, France and Germany may not be as high as in Switzerland, they all have longer maternity leave, bigger number of vacation, better public transportation and better benefits than in the USA
  • jfoutz 11y ago
    Sane health care is the biggest one.
    • agumonkey 11y ago
      There was another long and widely exposed article about an American citizen going to Europe (France IIRC) to treat his father's cancer. He said that healthcare spirit only would have been worth it, more human and less a business than in the USofA. I guess we should all travel to get perspective on our local environments and see what's possible with different organizations and beliefs.
      • jfoutz 11y ago
        Eh, outside of the U.S. just watch the first 1/2 season of breaking bad. It's fiction, of course, but deciding to cook crystal meth to pay for cancer treatment is an idea that would only make sense in the U.S.
        • agumonkey 11y ago
          Well, as much as I believe 'cultural' production reflect the subconscious of a group, it's still a stretch to me.
        • turar 11y ago
          https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/3eux61/if_breaking_bad_took_place_in_canada/ https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/3eux61/if_breaking_...
  • atmosx 11y ago
• Sfi81 11y ago
  Well you have to remember that the Swiss have both better income sources (assisting the world's wealthy & many corporations evade/optimize taxes for instance) and don't have military expenses and such due to neutrality. While many problems of the US are of its own creation due to either ideology or wealth dominating politics (healthcare & education spring to mind), it is quite unfair to compare what the Swiss government provides with the US.
  • WalterSear 11y ago
    On the contrary, IMHO, it is totally fair. The roots of their respective prosperity and poverty come from the long-term effects of their respective ideologies. The US choses to let corporations evade taxes, and the US choses to project military might to pursue private corporate aims. Just because a behaviour and culture is endemic and has occurred for generations now, that doesn't make it written in stone.
  • comrade1 11y ago
    The Swiss attitude is that many countries, including the u.s., are corrupt with corrupt governments and it is your responsibility to put your money someplace safe and out of hands of that corruption.
    • plonh 11y ago
      Not to Godwin, but, the Swiss supported plenty of money stolen by Nazi government. Much of the money being "protected from corrupt government" was obtained through corrupt activity.
      • comrade1 11y ago
        They provided a place for the jews in nazi germany to move their money outside of germany. But if I was Jewish and in Nazi Germany I would have done the same, as my Catholic great-grandparents did by moving their money from Germany to Switzerland when the Nazis came to power. It's unfortunate that most of their Jewish customers were killed by the Nazis. They also accepted deposits from the Nazis, but I can understand their attitude of not taking sides. In the end you want a neutral party like that, no matter what side you're on.
• fab13n 11y ago
  Reading this as a European, it's fun and telling that you focused on salary differences, whereas what mattered to me were the other quality-of-life elements (I assume you're living in the US). To sum up, what matters to me, in what she described, were the consequences of the belief that one shouldn't be ashamed of having a life outside of work, and needing some time and peace of mind to actually enjoy it. More money won't make me happier if I don't have holidays, week-ends, and some time during workdays to actually enjoy spending it, without being chronically on the verge of a burn-out. This is common sense in Europe, whereas it seems to be considered leftist heresy in the US.
  • hn_user2 11y ago
    Did parent edit? Because all I see is work-life balance.
  • adventured 11y ago
    In America you can choose your job based on how you want to live. You can pursue your life and goals based on what you want out of it. Is that not true in Switzerland? I think you've bought into little more than propaganda. Americans take off weekends. And how do you judge 330 million people when it comes to burn-out, given the vast differences among them all?
    • Daishiman 11y ago
      BS. I have seen far fewer Americans in a position where they can take the Friday afternoons off like a lot of Europeans can. Or extended paternity leaves. Or sabbaticals. I have yet to see a software company in the US with the amount of time off as European companies despite the fact that most of the people I know in the US would trade salary for time off. It's simply a race to the bottom; with no incentive for employers to reduce the number of working hours (because there are no laws for it, because white collar employees are exempt from overtime, because Americans stupidly believe that they can't achieve work improvements through collective bargaining), it is obvious that they will attempt to squeeze as much work out of employees up to, but not beyond, the point of futility.
• enraged_camel 11y ago
  I think you're getting entirely the wrong message from the article. It's not about whether it's possible to reproduce Switzerland's standard of living in America. It's about asking some difficult questions about the fundamental aspects of American work culture and how they can be changed for the better. For example, why isn't there mandatory paid maternity and paternity leave in America? Why does the culture essentially force people to choose between careers and family? It's funny because you show inappropriate content on TV and everyone goes "think of the children!" and loses their minds, but no one bats an eye when mommy and daddy has to work 60+ hours a week each and has no time to spend with their kid.
  • alkonaut 11y ago
    Why the hell is the U.S. Presidential campaigns about which clown did the fewest embarrassing gaffes, rather than who can actually stand up and promise to do something, like "If I'm elected, 3 weeks paid holiday will be the new minimum"? Are business interests too strong? Is everyone afraid to be labelled "socialist" and thereby disqualified if suggesting something worker-friendly?
    • enraged_camel 11y ago
      The top 0.1% are the SuperPAC contributors and they control the entire debate. "Democracy" in America is about who has the most money.
• JamesBarney 11y ago
  And they all are known as tax havens except for Norway which has half a million dollars of oil reserves per citizen :). But I do think the article is right in pointing out a lack of options in the U.S. if you want to live a lifestyle that doesn't center around work. I love writing software but 40 hours a week + 5 hours of commute + 6 hours of software practice + recovery time seems to me to not leave enough time for enjoying the parts of life that don't involve compiling.
  • chimeracoder 11y ago
    > And they all are known as tax havens except for Norway which has half a million dollars of oil reserves per citizen :). > But I do think the article is right in pointing out a lack of options in the U.S. if you want to live a lifestyle that doesn't center around work. This is the "option" of being both a very small and very rich state, which is simply not feasible. To put this into perspective, Norway is just over half the population of New York City. If New York City had half a million dollars of oil reserves per citizen (as you point out) and started to mint its own currency, and established immigration and trade barriers[0], yes, we would see a massive quality-of-life improvement compared to the status quo. But that's simply not an option, because (a) we can't produce massive oil riches out of thin air, and (b) NYC is not a sovereign state. [0] Norway is not part of the EU, but even if it were, EU member states are able to restrict trade and immigration within themselves to a far greater degree than a city or even state in the US can.
    • alkonaut 11y ago
      The oil doesnt' really make that much difference in Norway. They tend to keep most of the money in a state reserve to not create too much inflation. Subsitute Norway for non-oil Sweden, a country with huge immigration. Sure it's a small and "rich" country, but the cultural things like good work/life balance applies anyway. Edit: as was pointed out to me in another comment: this is using a loose definition of "life" which includes 23 hour nights at freezing temperatures. Not for everyone.
      • chimeracoder 11y ago
• lispm 11y ago
  Basically every country in Europe will give you longer vacations, standard health care, shorter working hours, ... In some countries you might even get worker's rights like workers councils, unions on the board, ... If you work for example for Volkswagen, every factory in the world will have strong unions, only the US factory won't.
  • comrade1 11y ago
    Interesting note - switzerland has workers councils too.
  • Cthulhu_ 11y ago
    What I recall is that the US used to have strong unions too - although my view of that may be skewed by TV and such. Nowadays though people can get fired if they join a union, which is why shit companies like McD's and Wal-mart get to continue to exploit their employees. I mean "associates".
• noja 11y ago
  > Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. You have to be kidding me. The average standard of living in the US is not the fourth best in the world. The US only got universal heathcare this century, it has a ludicrous work-life balance, the minimum wage in some states is very low (and sometimes includes tipping!), the infant mortality rate is lower than some third world countries, and maternity and paternity leave almost doesn't exist.
  • adventured 11y ago
    In fact America does have one of the highest standards of living. It also has one of the highest median incomes, and among the highest disposable incomes. OECD better life index: http://i.imgur.com/ekhWXeG.png http://i.imgur.com/ekhWXeG.png Maternity leave is common in America. You are free to choose your job based on the benefits you desire, including vacation time and maternity leave. Switzerland and Germany to name two, are famous for not having fully socialized healthcare systems, instead they blend private and public. Poor Americans have had universal healthcare for a lot longer than just this century, via Medicaid. US healthcare has only become particularly expensive in the last 15 years as costs have soared, prior to that the US had a very affordable, mostly private healthcare system. The infant mortality rate in some third world countries is far more likely to be fraudulent, including in places like Cuba where they force abortions to artificially prop up their infant mortality rates. The minimum wage in the US is set federally, and all states must at least meet that line. It's also likely to jump by ~50% nationally in the next few years, as major cities move to $11-$15 minimum wages. Italy for example has no minimum wage, and Germany just finally got one. Only 1% of American labor earns minimum wage. The median income of the bottom 25% of workers in America earn as much as the median income in all of Italy.
    • dubcanada 11y ago
      Maternity leave in America is basically unpaid vacation. In most countries you get paid maternity leave. Vacation time is also the lowest (2 weeks) compared to Europe which on average has 4 weeks of vacation time. Where did you get your information about healthcare from? Very affordable healthcare in America? Seriously, what are you smoking?
• DasIch 11y ago
  Standard of living has barely any useful meaning. The US has a relatively high standard of living sure but in practice you only get to enjoy that, if you are at least middle class. In Switzerland or anywhere else in Europe (excluding the east) you enjoy all the benefits mentioned in the article no matter what income or job you happen to have.
• atmosx 11y ago
  Actually the average European enjoys a way better living standard than the average American. Just take a look at healthcare system in the US. A disease in the US could ruin a family in Europe is taken care by the state... Same goes for education, etc.
  • gregsq 11y ago
    I'm a dual national UK/Australian resident in the US. If I were to find that I needed serious medical attention, I'd be on the plane back to either country as soon as I could. Out of interest I'll look up how much it costs to rent a jet and pilot.
    • atmosx 11y ago
      Of course you would! Anyone in their right minds would. I still don't understand why the USA has such a lousy healthcare system[1] and why people don't demand something more appropriate. [1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386032/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386032/
      • Cthulhu_ 11y ago
        Probably the same reason why people stay in North-Korea - they don't know any better, or they keep believing in the nationalist propaganda that the US is the best country EVAr. Thanks for linking that, Roger Moore may be controversial, but he does a good job of pointing out why the reality of the US just doesn't match up to its propaganda.
        • jganetsk 11y ago
          That's Michael Moore, not Roger Moore. The latter is an Englishman who played James Bond. And it has nothing to do with what Americans believe, but everything to do with the fact that money controls politics in America. And moneyed interests want American healthcare to stay exactly as it is. Thanks for comparing us to North Korea. I appreciate it. Also, the reason people stay in North Korea is because they will kill you if you try to escape, and will kill your remaining family if you succeed. I will also let you know when I meet the first American who thinks our healthcare system works. I really do hope you continue on your path of caricaturing others in order to make yourself feel better.
• orestisfl 11y ago
  here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population#2013_report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant... Switzerland 2,335,059 immigrants, 28.9% of population United States 45,785,090 immigrants, 14.3% of population
• _pmf_ 11y ago
  > Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. If you're judging by average income. The wealth distribution is so off in the US that you'll find several dozens of countries where people in the low middle class are much better off.
• deleted 11y ago
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• hessenwolf 11y ago
  This doesn't sound hugely informed. I spent the evening discussing this yesterday with Americans in a beer garden in Munich. Actually, more than the working conditions, the Americans didn't want to go back because of the guns.
  • vorg 11y ago
    Isn't Switzerland one of the few countries with a higher proportion of adults having guns than the US ?
    • geff82 11y ago
      It is, because they get them after serving mandatory time in the military. So more or less every swiss man has a military grade weapon at home. Only in newer times the ammunition is stored in special houses in each community. Before, they had their ammo at home.
      • vacri 11y ago
        They're also rifles, not handguns - and it's handguns that are the problem in the US. Around 75-80% of firearm murders in the US are by handguns.
  • rhodysurf 11y ago
    Do you think people just run around with guns in the US? Not everything is as crazy as the news makes it sound. Its definitely a problem, but its not like were living in constant fear
    • hessenwolf 11y ago
      I didn't until the Americans told me it was a significant problem. I was a bit surprised. Minneapolis.
• namenotrequired 11y ago
  Nonsense. Almost all that is described in the blog is the standard across western (or at least Germanic) Europe.
• vilmosi 11y ago
  >>> There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than alive in Switzerland. How is this even remotely relevant to the discussion?
• geff82 11y ago
  you may say the right thing. But there are too many things they did right in democratic, business or welfare aspects that one should ask what they have to teach us to make the hundred millions of Americans live better. There are smaller and bigger countries doing things worse than Switzerland, so size of population is not a reason to ignore them.
• rhizome 11y ago
  There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than alive in Switzerland. It would be more meaningful to boil it down to a different ratio. Even per-capita would represent the differences better.
• erpellan 11y ago
  I see your random statistic and raise you... Saudi Arabia: http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.js... Not so much disagreeing as pointing out that condensing something as complex as living standards into a league table is a somewhat absurd reduction.
• pbreit 11y ago
  I'd agree that Switzerland would probably be considered an outlier and difficult to reproduce. However, Denmark, Holland, Sweden, Finland, Austria? I would put Germany in there, too.
• mmaunder 11y ago
  Good point. That along with high prices (2 to 3 times rest of Europe) and xenophobia can make Switzerland a fairly miserable place for an immigrant.
• coldtea 11y ago
  >Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. Sure, but the standard on living on most of the things she mentions is better than the US in lots of others European countries, even if they're not as high as Switzerland... >All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than alive in Switzerland That's beside the point, since that "work-life balance" is enjoyed by the overwhelming majority in Switzerland -- whereas that's not true for ANY city of comparable size in the US.