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Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev?
I am currently working for a big company doing somewhat very technical work as a developer,and currently trying to formulate a strategy for building a reasonable amount of wealth that would allow me retire early ( and probably return to school yey:) ).
It seems that all the success story are related to start-ups;Looking at my situation, i am not sure that this would be my best options. First my area of interrest/expertise (compiler and dev tools) doesn't seems amendable for a start-up; and beside the somewhat rigid structure,low pay and boring meetings i still enjoy the "big company" setting : working with so many smart people with so much experience really turn every interaction into a teachable moment and has allowed me ( and continue to do so) to grow as dev at an incredible rate.
I am sure other dev/people are facing the same dilemma, so it would be nice to hear from other people :
1 - are start-up the only way to significant wealth for a dev(while still doing dev work) ?
2 - i read on-line stories about dev making north of 1 million a years; is that really possible ?
3 - what are the other way to wealth for a dev (investing, consulting, part time startup etc...) ?
- patio11 11y agoI'll answer the questions you asked, then give you a better question: AppAmaGooBookSoft are probably not what you're thinking of when you say "startups" and 5-10 years in any of them will make you quite wealthy indeed, by the standards of e.g. the American middle class. Do some devs make north of $1 million a year? Yes, for a value of "some." (If you put a gun to my head, I'd say "Maybe 5% of the engineering workforce at AppAmaGooBookSoft. Possibly modestly higher than that in finance.") The shortest path to it is "significant contributions to a major revenue driver for a large company combined with aggressive negotiation." Depending on where you draw the bar for "wealthy", there are a lot of dev-related businesses which can get you there. Consultancies with employees throw off a lot of money on a yearly basis and also build value which can be sold. Profits for a well-managed e.g. Rails consultancy are on the order of $2.5k~$10k per employee per month (math here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155387), so if you run a 10-person consultancy, you do pretty well for yourself via distributions while also drawing the market salary you're paying all the employees. There exist many product businesses which are primarily or largely software in character. There exist hundreds of software companies which toil in relative obscurity whose founders are (generally very quietly) millionaires even when one doesn't count the value of the company itself. I built a consulting career off of working for SaaS companies with, in the main, $10 to $50 million a year in revenue. There exist lots of them. The rough economics are often 10% COGS 10% marketing 10% G&A 50% salaries 20% "whatever the owner feels like." Many of these paths will not involve you being primarily working on compilers and dev tools. (Compilers are a tough sell -- dev tools perhaps less so. There exist plenty of great small dev tools companies.) Even if that is what your business actually makes money on, you will probably have to a) get into business and b) spend the majority of your cycles on building the business rather than building the thing the business makes, unless you take the well-compensated employee route. There are your answers. Here is my question: what do you want out of life? What does "wealthy" mean to you? What motivates your desire to retire early? I once wanted to retire early, but that was a symptom of the underlying affliction "I hated what I was doing for a living." If you see wealth as an opportunity to choose to spend most of your cycles on something other than what you presently do for a living, you probably can achieve that without being sold-a-startup-now-I'm-loaded wealthy. Some of the happiest people I know run quiet little cottage industry software businesses on the Internet in preference to the day job. Most don't have seven figures in the bank, but their day-to-day lifestyle might resemble that of a "gentleman of means." If you want to have sufficient free cycles to study something, consider as an option "Create some enduring source of value which solves the sustenance-for-myself-and-family problem with the minimum number of hours required per week; spend my freed-up-time studying rather than filing TPS reports."
- saiprashanth93 11y agoWhat exactly is AppAmaGooBookSoft?
- ajkjk 11y agoIt sounds like a combination of Apple+Amazon+Google+Facebook+Microsoft.
- JonRB 11y agoI believe it means Apple/Amazon/Google/Facebook/Microsoft I was also unsure and searching for it basically only gave HN things.
- w1ntermute 11y agoIt's a patio11-ism.
- hkmurakami 11y agoApple, Amazon, Google, Facebook, Microsoft. i.e. the big tech players that employ a ton of people and pay high, predictable salaries.
- toomuchtodo 11y agoApple, Amazon, Google, Facebook,Microsoft
- agersant 11y agoApple-Amazon-Google-Facebook-Microsoft would be my guess.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- ChuckMcM 11y agoAs pointed out, get straight in your head the difference between "wealth" and "rich". "Wealthy" means you can do all the things you like to do all the time, "rich" means you have a big number in an account with one or more financial institutions. Most folks I know in the bay area don't want to "retire" what they want is to work on what ever their passion leads them too without worrying that if it isn't paying them anything that they will have to stop or starve. If you can save half your salary every year then you will get to a point where you have enough money in an account that it can pay you an equivalent to half your salary without working. If you work at a large tech firm and participate in their employee stock purchase program and/or get stock options, then you are doubly leveraged as that can add a nice kicker to your salary. Solving people's problems will keep you employed, and finding a solution space that you like to work in will keep you happy. Always remember that the end game is you just die, and that can come any time. If you find happiness in owning a new car each year, I suggest you consider working for an automobile manufacturer.
- alttab 11y agoSave half of what you make, diversify your investments, and pay down your debt. Do this for 15 years and you will be rich with your skills.
- davidw 11y agoThat's the strategy suggested by this guy, who has made a name for himself dispensing that advice: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ Mostly it seems pretty sensible.
- purplelobster 11y agoI have realised this is the best course of action for me. I've always wanted to do a startup, do something significant or meaningful. But I also yearn for freedom, like being able to go someplace warm for the worst 3 months of the year. Or just travel for a while. Saving 60% of me and my wife's income and working on side projects will allow me to do exactly that. If none of my side projects take off, we'll still be able to retire by 40. If something takes off then even better, I can keep that going through retirement.
- falcolas 11y agoThis isn't bad advice, but I'd add one more thing: Have fun today. This doesn't mean blow all your savings on the latest shiny, but be sure to set aside a portion of your money just for having fun. After all, there's no guarantee there will be a tomorrow, and the prospect of retiring "early" 10 years from now does remarkably little to make you happy today.
- sblom 11y agoI worked with a test engineer at Microsoft who started in 1999, which was after the get-rich-on-stock-options days at the company. He spent 15 years living below his means, and recently retired from the tech world forever. He didn't need any tricks or secrets to pull it off, just living frugally and saving tons of money. I suspect I'm way behind him despite earning more and even having a wife who used to earn a software salary as well. Makes me wish I would have saved more aggressively to date.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- justinlilly 11y agoYou may be interested in earlyretirementextreme.com which details how to do exactly what your friend did.
- eignerchris_ 11y agoIt really depends on your definition of wealth. Most engineers I know clear 100K+ pretty easily after a few years of experience. If you're in a hot market or sector, you can easily earn $180k+ after 5-8 years. If you produce consistent value for a business, $225k is definitely achievable. Understand that by making $100k+ you're basically in the top 10-15% of earners in the U.S. [1]. Make $180k/yr and you're in the top 4%. And realize that plenty of people who make >$150k spend like crazy trying to keep up with the Jones. Plenty of people who make $80k/yr spend wisely end up having more "wealth" in the end. [1] - http://www.financialsamurai.com/how-much-money-do-the-top-income-earners-make-percent/ http://www.financialsamurai.com/how-much-money-do-the-top-in...
- bandrami 11y agoSavings and prudent investment.
- hkmurakami 11y agoHow much do you need in your nest egg to fully retire? Now, how much would you need in your nest egg to feel comfortable about being picky about where you work and what you work on, trading in some of your income for mission/learning/location/people etc.? Once you have these numbers (which depends on your life stage and costs of living), then you can start backtracking and figure out what kind of money you'd need to make and whether it makes sense for you. That will leave you with the universe of options available, which may be wider than what you're considering right now.
- danieltillett 11y agoI am surprised no one has suggested the traditional and still very popular way which is marry someone wealthy.
- ishanr 11y agolol
- leunggamciu 11y ago^_^
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- jcoffland 11y agoContracting! Many people, most of them non-contractors or people who have limited contracting experience will tell you contracting is risky. If you are good it's actually much more secure than getting a "real" job, once you get going. You can't really get fired and as long as you are able to juggle a few clients at a time you will always have plenty of work. If you can consistently deliver results faster than the average deskjocky you can earn a lot of money too.
- tajen 11y agoI second contracting. You are responsible for your own skills, but you can start very young, and you usually get better skills than permanently employed people. Then only drawback is the lack of social ties with your employer, but nowadays employers don't really care for employees, and having more money than a permanent employee will give you more latitude.
- bentcorner 11y agoI'm completely unfamiliar with this - does this mean working with a staffing agency, or working on your own (freelancing?)?
- jerguismi 11y agoContracting is essentially freelancing. Only minor differences, contractors maybe make bigger contracts and work maybe longer periods of time per one client. It is up to you if you want to call yourself contractor or freelancer :)
- pikachu_is_cool 11y agoHow exactly do you start contracting? For instance I've made a couple of decently popular jailbreak iOS apps, which is nice passive income, and a good niche, but I don't really know where to find clients... through friends, on a website, or what?
- RantyDave 11y agoSolve problems for rich clients. Or steal bitcoin.
- mirceal 11y agosteal bitcoin for rich clients
- fishcakes 11y agoHere are a few ideas: - Selling enterprise software (you can make 10%-20% of an 8 or 9 figure deal) - Selling securities in some form or another (you make ~5% of deals worth potentially hundreds of millions of dollars) - high leverage consulting (solving very hard tech problems for lots of people. for example: I have a friend who helps a whole bunch of computer vision companies and makes a ton. Another friend is an SEO expert.) - Patenting core technologies and selling those patents (A buddy of mine sold his patent for $10M) - "platform based land grabs". Think of the people who bought tons of domains early in the Web's history. Or the first guy to make an emoji app on iOS. These are different than "starting a company" as you really only need a product and can pull it all off on your own. I suspect there will be more of these in the future. All of these require creatively navigating business as well as being an awesome dev.
- catshirt 11y agoforgive my lack of imagination / education, what kind of enterprise software could a sole developer create that would land 8/9 figure contracts?
- JSeymourATL 11y agoJust to add to this brilliant idea of selling-- Sales/Business Development executives are generally the best compensated in most companies. You may recoil at the thought of something smarmy like sales. However, there is an learned art to the process when done well. And leveraging your background on the software development side could prove a huge competitive advantage. Buyers will see you as the Real Deal.
- dublidu 11y agoDevs rarely make $1 million a year, startup or big company. Now if you are 10x better than the average Google/Facebook engineer and can prove it, I think you could negotiate that kind of compensation package as a principal engineer.
- damian2000 11y agoThis is a special case, but its possible for developers who specialise in High Frequency Trading (HFT) algorithms to make that, in the case of getting into a bidding war between rival HFT investment banks. https://adtmag.com/articles/2011/07/29/why-hft-programmers-earn-top-salaries.aspx https://adtmag.com/articles/2011/07/29/why-hft-programmers-e...
- starmole 11y agoIt really depends on skill and motivation. If your motivation is only money you are unlikely to succeed. Personally I am a big corp dev and making >600k/year on track to retire at 40. But you do not get there by trying for the salary. Try to be good, no exceptional, at what you do. Become valuable and you will be paid. But your motivation should be your craft and not money. I believe the same applies for startup founders too. As a dev in startup land you are at a disadvantage though - the fail or rise of the company is much more about sales and biz than tech. I think as a dev big corps are the way better bet. Not much to loose, but possibly high payout. Startups very rarely pay out for devs.
- sosuke 11y agoWhy does money motivation reduce your chances? I don't think being exceptional is enough, there are several open source projects created and maintained by exceptional devs, but they don't make >600k/year. Being exceptional working at anything but the right company won't make you money. Why do you thing "dev big corps" are better? What does that mean to you? I think of Microsoft, Google, IBM, Apple, but even after you get in there moving up to exceptional in a room of exceptional people is even a more meteoric task.
- caminante 11y agoMaybe it's late, but I thought he answered your Q1 and Q2.
- sosuke 11y agoIt is late, I can't think super clear either, but I just read that he says money should not be the focus, but doesn't address why that is an issue. As to why big dev corps are better he didn't give any reasons for his belief, no examples. Person y makes $1 million a year at company x, but they aquihired their startup to get there. If I started at big dev corp as a senior developer and made $100k, what path does it take to get $600k, which company offers those incentives? I really just want some more detail.
- wsc981 11y agoLike others have suggested in this thread: contracting. Ideally find clients who are willing to work with remote contractors. Emigrate to a "poorer" country and save money. For example, people in Thailand earn on average around 500 EUR a month (from what I've read). If you can manage to work for western clients who perhaps pay you 10.000 EUR a month (40 hour work weeks), you will be able to retire extremely quickly.
- jpatokal 11y agoYes, but then you're living the lifestyle of somebody who earns 500 EUR a month in Thailand, which means you've got a wooden shack next to a rice paddy and a couple of water buffalo. On the other hand, if you want a beachfront villa in Phuket, you can quite easily blow 10.000 EUR a week on renting it.
- anonnomad 11y agoMy suggestion for newcomers is a budget of 2000-4000 EUR month for comfortable living in Bangkok (depending on your level of comfortableness). The daily live of a 500 EUR worker is not the same as that of an expat (e.g. membership at a co-work space alone will set you back ~200$/month). Gyms are as expensive as in the west.
- purplelobster 11y agoReally? I live very comfortably in Stockholm (a very expensive place) with 1500 EUR. How on earth would you need 4000 EUR in Bangkok?
- anonnomad 11y ago4000 EUR is very comfortable living. - ~800 EUR for a nice 1-br condo in a central location - ~100 EUR el./internet/tv/3g - ~100 EUR for transport (these motorbike taxis and bts rides are adding up). - ~150 EUR for co-work membership. = 1150 EUR fix per month. Now with the rest you can go eat and drink. 100 EUR = big nightout, 50 EUR dinner and drinks, 20 EUR low-key dinner with drinks, 4-10 EUR just dinner outside. Add another few 100 EUR for a visa run every once in a while. Also don't forget that you're likely still paying for some stuff back home, insurances, etc.
- jitix 11y agoMake a viral app. Something like Flappy Bird.
- heyalexej 11y ago"Significant wealth" can mean many different things. I've seen Derek Sivers speaking at multiple conferences. He has a very interesting question that I since ask myself and others: "What do you optimize your life for?". When you find the answer to that question, it gets easier to go from there. Robert Kiyosaki and other wealthy people state that wealth is measured in time. Can you not work for x weeks, months, years and still make money or at least maintain status quo? If you can, you're probably already wealthy and doing better than the vast majority of people out there. We all love to read success stories of startup founders where it escalated quickly and they got out with a huge amount of money. These people however are not a good representation of what's out there. Most wealthy people I've met over the course of my life do things that not a lot of people think about and take for granted. They're sometimes rather boring, not glamorous, not innovative things like selling sausages, web hosting, web development services, selling plain white shirts, toilet paper, pipe fittings, cleaning businesses, restaurants and so on. These people then invest their proceeds in other "boring" assets like real estate, other businesses, fonds etc. with a long term view. A lot of these people moved from being a specialist (consultants, chefs, programmers, contractors) to business owners. Not working in but on the business. Hiring other specialists, people who do the grunt work, the sales, the programming and so on. They then invest their proceeds into assets that will continue to generate money at different percentages even after they completely stop working. In your particular case that could mean that you could start with very specialized consulting work. Then slowly transition into providing tooling for a monthly fee. Then slowly removing yourself from the business as much as you can. The beauty of it is that monthly recurring revenue is compounding. Also have a look into SWaS (Software With a Service) http://www.tropicalmba.com/swas/ http://www.tropicalmba.com/swas/. Investing/saving $5K a month for 15 years with an expected rate of return of 7% and an expected inflation rate of 3% will bring you to a place where you end up with a balance of ~$1.5MM (or $1MM after inflation) to your name. Would that make you wealthy in your books?
- ryandrake 11y ago> Investing/saving $5K a month for 15 years with an expected rate of return of 7% and an expected inflation rate of 3% will bring you to a place where you end up with a balance of ~$1.5MM (or $1MM after inflation) to your name. Would that make you wealthy in your books? So, 15 years and you'll have almost enough to buy a _starter home_ in Palo Alto...
- sosuke 11y agoKeep making products until one sticks, then keep making products until one shows potential, then keep making products until you've gotten a product that can support you, then keep making that product until it plateaus or you consider yourself successful. If that last product isn't enough, repeat the cycle. Product could be SaaS, software, consulting, contracting.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- involute1344 11y ago3 - Marry well.
- Sukotto 11y agoIf returning to school is something you really want to do then there is a third option: go get a job at the school you want to attend. Just make sure to negotiate your benefits to include the ability to take classes (both the time during your days to attend, and reducing the costs -- preferably to zero -- of attending)
- bsder 11y agoGet out of dev, put on a suit and tie, and go suck up doing finance on Wall Street. Your probability of success is way higher.
- sosuke 11y agoA general rant, when someone asks about how to make reasonable wealth, significant wealth, or to get richer than you would be as a salaried worker I assume they are interested in getting into the 1% or higher bracket of earners. Someone making 6 figures asking how to get more wealth probably doesn't care they are in the top 10%. They are looking up, not down. Saving half their salary isn't realistic for a single income family, and would even be tough for a dual income family. They probably don't care to listen to the "money isn't everything" advice from the rich. Yes, everyone knows that money isn't everything, and everyone knows that money isn't everything when you've already got it. I have relatives making choices between feeding themselves or their pet for the day, money means a great deal up to a point, and then there is a big gap where it doesn't make much difference. Then after that gap is breached is starts to make a huge difference again. Unfortunately, for the number of times this question is asked, the number of times I've asked it of myself, there are no silver bullets or proven paths. I have to stop ranting now it is late, I am tired. (^_^)b
- soulbadguy 11y agoYou read my mind...
- AYBABTME 11y agoDepends, I make a reasonable amount of money. Enough to be happy and eat what I want, live where I want. But I don't make enough money to build a spaceship. So I need more.
- sosuke 11y agoWow, just made me think about Elon Musk, he got one payout and is now making his own spaceships. I want that.
- markyc 11y agoI have relatives making choices between feeding themselves or their pet for the day why would they have a pet if they can't afford to feed it?
- hamburglar 11y agoI think the best approach is to stop believing the hype that you went into a vocation that'll net you obscene wealth and instead thank your lucky stars at having entered a field that you (hopefully) enjoy and which also happens to pay a damn good salary. From that point: hard work and perseverance will let you save a pretty respectable retirement fund. And the work isn't even that hard. I'm sorry to be the grumpy old man in this thread, but asking how to turn your developer job into $1MM/year is like a high school kid planning to play pro basketball.
- soulbadguy 11y agoWhat's wrong with an high schooler wanted to play pro basketball ?
- hamburglar 11y agoYou mean besides it being the canonical example of an unrealistic plan for becoming rich? Nothing.
- thebiglebrewski 11y agoMore importantly, can a dog play basketball?
- dleskov 11y agoI am with a small company focused on compilers and managed runtimes (JVM), and I can tell you that _good_ compiler consultants are in high demand. For instance, I had a discussion with a CEO of such specialized consultancy looking for GCC specialists last year, and he said that LLVM engineers are even harder to come by. I also see processor startups popping up all the time that need compiler/tools engineers badly. Overall, I'd repeat what others have said: "save a lot and invest your savings wisely."
- soulbadguy 11y agoHey there, would love to chat a bit with you on that subject GreyPhilo on reddit ?
- nudpiedo 11y agoCan you specify what do you mean with "_good_ compiler consultants"? It doesn't look like the guy who tunes the configuration of the runtimes right? Perhaps someone that writes and modifies the source of a compiler for a special set-up?
- dleskov 11y agoI mean someone who can build support for your shiny new language and/or instruction set into GCC or LLVM and get their pull request accepted by the maintainers.
- ryandrake 11y agoSince a lot of people are commenting that the original poster is not being specific in what he or she means by "significant wealth", let me propose a more concrete question: "Besides a startup, what are some other reliable (close to risk-free) ways to retire at any age with $20 million net worth and $1 million a year in passive income--that a motivated and skilled software developer can achieve starting in his twenties?" Practical step-by-step advice only, no general platitudes like "just love what you do!" and "don't be in it for the money!" My guess is it's impossible without rolling the dice on business ownership, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
- Jack000 11y agoThere's always the "get rich slowly" approach: put a large portion of your income in low-risk investments. This is slow but once you hit a critical mass in capital more interesting opportunities become available. Eg. you could eventually bootstrap your way to buying an apartment complex, parking lot etc. I think a better question is how do non-computer people create wealth? Devs as a group are already predisposed to having higher income. For my family it has been to work really, really hard, live frugally and invest all disposable income. I'd venture to guess that most wealth creation happens this way - call it the long tail of wealth.
- FlaceBook 11y ago"I want to be rich, how do I do this?" Is this yahoo answers?
- simplexion 11y agoWealth != money. I feel like I am very wealthy and I make bugger all money.
- anovikov 11y agoGet married to a rich girl. Girls like smart guys.
- crimsonalucard 11y agoThere's something we all can do if we work together to get each of us paid north of 200k a year. Form a software developer union.
- beagle3 11y agoThe only unions that I am aware of that have achievements close to this are lawyer's guilds (through state bars) and doctor's guilds (the AMA, by limiting medical school admissions). Lawyers, as of the last 15 years or so, are not doing so well - the median figure I found for 2013 is $114K. Doctors are doing better, at median $190K. That's a far cry from "each of us" - even with these two professions, 50-80% of the people earn less than $200k. And, they both manage it through strict licensing, which effectively requires 6-8 year studies in an accredited institute - which carry hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt in most cases. Which union and setting exactly did you have in mind when you wrote this?
- crimsonalucard 11y agoYou're not talking about unions. Those are cartels that restrict supply. Lawyers and Doctors are business owners operating as an oligopoly. I'm not talking about business owners. I'm talking about employees. I'm talking about people joining together to put themselves on equal negotiation grounds with their employers. Just because no union has successfully produced wages of 200k plus doesn't mean it can't happen. Software Engineering is a highly skilled occupation that generates a great deal of wealth. If all software developers demanded 200k then companies would pay that price because our work generates well north of that. The reason we don't get a fair share of the pie, like all other laborers, is a lack of organized negotiation. In short, 200k+ union salary has never happened, but is well within the means of the industry to support such an endeavor. It CAN happen and it will make wages MORE fair. Don't argue against unions. It's the stupidest thing to do, because even if you can't negotiate your salary up to 200k you got nothing to lose by making/joining one or even raising your salary by 10k. That is unless, you're an executive/major shareholder... then we'd be opponents from a negotiation standpoint.
- 11y ago
- PaulRobinson 11y agoThe myth that growing the value of equity is the only way to make significant money is a lie, perpetuated to keep you working for somebody else until you have "the big idea". What if you started a company as an LLP with some smart colleagues and you shared in the growth of each other's talents? What if you created a co-operative? Come to think of it, what's your goal? To be rich, or to be able to go back to school without worrying about money? The two are not the same. I doubt that most of the open source developers you've heard of can rock around in a Ferrari but they are doing what they love and are happy: haven't they effectively got to the point you wanted to, but without the need to slog out to the point of having piles of money? I'd also as an addendum suggest diving into the [/r/financialindependence](http://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence http://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence) community - lots of ideas there.
- tslug 11y ago1. No. 2. Yes. 3. Respect the people you want to help you. For instance, let's say you want a bunch of people to take the time to read and answer difficult, open-ended questions for free in a way that could lead to vast personal wealth for you. You could demonstrate your respect for them by showing them the courtesy of proof-reading your post. As the questions are so broad, you also could show respect by sharing what you've learned in the research you've done so far to help educate them and to narrow down what you're looking for. You could demonstrate even more respect by thanking the authors of particularly good contributions.
- soulbadguy 11y agoThis one is interesting.
- prewett 11y agoSave money and invest it wisely in stocks and/or bonds. It's not fast, it's not techy, but it is a tried and true way. The trick is, you need to figure out what "wisely" is. IMO, if your strategy involves holding on to your stocks, it is probably speculation (=gambling) rather than investing wisely.
- gdubs 11y ago>> if your strategy involves holding on to your stocks, it is probably speculation (=gambling) rather than investing wisely. Holding onto your stocks is the opposite of speculation, isn't it? Most sensible investment advice, e.g. Bogle, recommends index funds that are held basically forever.
- m-i-l 11y ago1. No, startups aren't the only way to "significant wealth". In fact, in my experience, startups are something of a lottery, i.e. you only a very small chance of making a lot of money. For every success story you read there will be many more failures. But having said that, it can still be worth founding or working for a startup because you can often learn a much broader set of skills than you can at a big company. 2. Yes, I have heard about a small number of exceptionally highly paid developers too. However, I suspect this is incredibly rare, perhaps with a similar or even lower probability than making your fortune at a startup. Unless you have some extraordinarily talent and are aware of this and in a position to able to exploit this (but I doubt you would be asking the question if this was the case). 3. I would have thought your best chance of making enough money to reach financial independence is the usual unexciting advice: (i) work hard to get an above average salary, (ii) live frugally and save as much as you can, (iii) invest what you save carefully, (iv) continue this process for many years. If there was a sure-fire quick and easy way of getting rich, I'm sure more people would be doing it, or you wouldn't be reading about it here.
- madaxe_again 11y agoAs someone who has spent their 20's accruing "significant wealth" through a startup (I am by no means loaded, but have not worried about money at all in ~3 years), I'll tell you now - it's overrated. Money can buy you happiness, but it's an inefficient exchange mechanism - unless you roll two sixes, the amount of work and bullshit that goes hand in hand with growing your "worth" usually exceeds the reward - and that reward for most is tantalisingly close but always "a year or two" away. Monetary wealth is a means - it is "gas in the tank" - but it isn't the end. The end is your own happiness and wellbeing, and there are much easier ways to secure this than through wealth. If I'd known what I know now, I would have moved to a hut up a mountain a decade ago rather than going into business. Now I am responsible for the livelihood of dozens directly, thousands indirectly, and while I may have made myself a very comfortable gilded cage, it is a cage, and the cost of my wealth has been my freedom.
- wingerlang 11y agoSo why don't you quit?
- madaxe_again 11y agoBecause I have a responsibility to my employees and our customers.
- wingerlang 11y agoI mean over a longer period, transfer this responsibility to someone else.
- hebdo 11y agoAnd then do what? Isn't this the problem of non-decreasing expectations? Once you learn how to fly, you see yourself as a sucker every time you try to ordinarily walk.
- wingerlang 11y ago
- Zecc 11y agoApparently you can make millions being an art forger. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9642526 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9642526
- zamalek 11y ago1. Startups have happiness potential for developer not only because of the monetary wealth but also because of the wealth of the challenges faced. Developers live for tricky puzzles to solve and startups are one place that you can get them. Startups aren't the only place where you can find challenges (as you've noted). The monetary wealth typically comes from stock options. Stock options are a promise that you can buy stocks at a certain price at some point in the future (when they become available, e.g. during an investment or IPO). Options are how you become an overnight millionaire. Startups aren't the only place where you can earn options. You'll typically find that companies that aren't publicly traded have stock options (ask about them in your interview). It's not something that's exclusive to startups - I have options in a 10 year old company and have cashed in some of those options. 2. Yes. 3. Accrue wealth like anyone would. Developers earn relatively high salaries (whether they work for a startup or not) and hence have an easier time getting into the situation where money works for them. However, even one of those developers who earns $1 000 000 can have no wealth if they waste it all. Someone who earns $75 000 can amass a fortune. It all comes down to how well you manage your money. If you do something to get rich quick chances are you are going to end up penniless. It takes time, discipline and a brain. There is no quick road to material wealth. Money does not make you happy, it merely multiplies what is already there. It's a catalyst. If you're already happy, money makes you happier. If you're already sad, money will make you miserable.
- atmosx 11y agoFantastic response. Digital Ocean is hiring heavily. They give stock options.
- timr 11y ago"Developers live for tricky puzzles to solve and startups are one place that you can get them. Startups aren't the only place where you can find challenges (as you've noted)." Ehhh. I jumped from research to the startup world, so maybe I have a high bar, but most startups are doing pretty boring, predictable variations on bog-standard systems work. You see this in the way that these "exciting" companies keep re-inventing the same wheels in different languages. How many javascript frameworks are there, again? How many different ways have people found to "replace" relational databases? If you're right out of school, everything is challenging. Give it a few years. Eventually, it becomes downright boring to watch people needlessly re-solve problems that were solved in the late 1960s because they don't know history, and/or don't want to learn some boring old technology that their older brother used last week. If you want interesting problems, go into research. If you want to do interesting problems and get paid, go to companies that are large enough to have the resources to fund things that aren't directly on the critical path to profit. Startups are a really bad place to go if you want tricky puzzles.
- pjc50 11y agoThe same way as everyone else: leveraged property speculation. If you're really good at maths you could become a "quant". Most of the really high paying developer jobs are unsurprisingly in the financial services industry.
- mauricemir 11y agowhat do you define as significant? 1M 10M or 100M plus
- soulbadguy 11y ago10M
- MurWade 11y agoemail me mustafahossaini@gmail.com
- joetech 11y agoThere are ways to make a lot of money with affiliate marketing, but that can involve a lot of trial and error and can (usually does) involve bootstrapping with a lot of your own cash or a credit card. Although I know of at least one person who turned millionaire after bootstrapping by maxing out his credit cards, I would never suggest doing that. It's a deep hole to climb out of if you fail and for every success story, there's probably 100 failures not talked about. In short, the successes I've seen involve buying advertising to get people to a landing page that generates leads with commissions that (hopefully) pay you back more than you spend getting the traffic. It's a delicate operation that pays well only if you get the landing page and affiliate choices right. I've also seen wealth generated with mailing lists. This is another affiliate marketing play that can be done without feeling too spammy and can still add value to the user. Similar to a mailing list, a forum can be easy to set up and maintain. Also like a mailing list, if you create a large enough user base, advertising can pay off. One of the better earners is a subscription model for just about anything. Software provided for free with a "premium" set of features for $x per month is a good way to generate a user base more easily. A couple things to keep in mind: 1. You will almost always have more success when you're passionate about the subject matter. 2. It will take time. Most overnight successes are preceded by years of ramp-up.
- aj0strow 11y agoSpend less. Save more. Change companies every 3 years. You'll do fine. Alternatively make friends with rich people and make them richer. You get a cut.
- soulbadguy 11y agoA lot of good answers, and lot of good advices. But it seems there is a lot of assumptions on my motivations and personal view on moneys.While i think that those aren't strictly necessary to answer the question, i guess i am asking a personal question so it's only fair if people some assumptions. So in no particular order , i am sharing my perspective on some the recurring themes : 1 - Why do i want money (or why do i want a lot if it :)) : I am not interested in a luxurious or grandiose life style. For me money is to buy freedom and safety booth for me and the peole i care about. I want myself and them to be able to afford the best of the health care systems, to be able to focus on exactly what we do, etc...etc... 2 - How much is "significant wealth" 10M+ 3 - Money shouldn't be the focus, the craft is: I think they both should be. I don't think getting wealthy should be though as a direct consequences of great work. Great work might be correlated or even necessary to building wealth but i don't the former always implies the latter. To get wealth i believe i will have to learn how, much in the same wayi had to learn to be a software dev. 4 - There is no quick fix. stop looking for it. I am not looking for a quick fix. I am willing to put the hours (hell i am looking forward to it). But i also want to capture and leverage some of the value i will be creating (in a way that's is both legal and ecological) So again a lot of great idea i didn't though of and i am already reading on all those venues. The idea i am particular interested is consulting : Is there a demand out there for consulting to startup say 30/week for 6 month for some equity in the company ? Any body in the fanancial market want to share his experience ? Again thanks for all the great answers
- chrisbennet 11y agoI'm not trying to be flippant, but have you considered finding something you like enough that you don't look forward to retiring? I get paid (well) to do stuff I love so it is possible and possibly easier than becoming wealthy. I think loving your "work" will put a lot more happiness "under the curve" than waiting until you retire to be happy - even if you retire early.