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Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?

• JSno 12y ago
  contact his Boss and report what you know. Also cc all your emails to HR. Backup your emails too for future lawsuit.
• evbots 12y ago
  Whatever you decide to do, you really should report the violation of the law in some way to one of your superiors, and do it in a documented, traceable fashion (email).
  • skylan_q 12y ago
    Pretty much this. And if they don't follow through/follow up on this, the problem will get much bigger.
    • s_q_b 12y ago
      Thanks guys :) There are verbatim notes that I've filed with my legal counsel, but I am concerned escalating will result in immediate termination.
      • skylan_q 12y ago
        The company is willing to hire such a manager. So you've got to ask yourself, would you want anything other than termination from this environment? Either way things can't go back to the way they were. You're either getting fired, or you're going to choose to leave. This means changes are coming. So you've got to take charge of how your life is going to change.
        • ChuckMcM 12y ago
          This. It doesn't sound like there is a 'not leaving' choice so making it on your own terms is better than having it on their terms. And document what ever you can so that in the (unlikely) event they come after you, you have a defense.
      • rfrey 12y ago
        You have legal counsel and you're still posting to HN for advice? Have you lost faith in them? Do they know you're posting details of your case on the internet? Are they ok with that?
        • s_q_b 12y ago
          I have not lost faith, and nothing I've said is legally problematic. Truly, I value the advice given here, and having weighed the risks carefully, I made a considered decision. It could be totally wrong, but for now, what's done is done. Thank you for reading this, and your advice is very well taken.
• throwaway426 12y ago
  > Do I quit before the period expires? If you're fairly certain you'll be fired (and it sounds like you are) wouldn't this be the most sensible solution? When asked in interviews why you left saying you quit usually goes over a lot better than saying you were fired. And explaining why you quit would certainly not be considered a poor reason - at least not for the companies you would want to work for.
  • fsk 12y ago
    Just give a vague answer if anyone asks why you left the job "They wanted to go in a different direction." The important point is to not show stress when they ask why you left.
  • imsofuture 12y ago
    You don't need to actually quit to have a reasonable answer to why you left. I'm not advocating lying, at all, but you also don't have to volunteer "they terminated me". There's a lot of soft answers about how it wasn't a good fit. Plus companies will often terminate you via a technical layoff, or 'position eliminated' instead of 'termination for cause'.
    • VLM 12y ago
      Can be perfectly honest about the "second best reason I wanted to quit" and just neglect to mention "Oh and BTW my boss was trying to set me up to take the rap for a felony although I figured it out before the prosecutor pressed charges, so the boss had to get rid of me ASAP to hide the evidence." Don't give HR at the new employer any reason to wonder about what happens after you're hired. This vague stuff is not cool. Try, "My girlfriend and I were ready to moving to Portland for her job as a biochemist at xyz but it didn't work out (provide more detail here) so here I am looking for work back home" or something similarly tragic but obvious one time only concrete specific event. Or your position was in line for a forced relo and you really like (insert name of city you're interviewing at). Claim to be downsized, how are they going to know? Perhaps you have a terminally ill distant relative who did in fact recently die so now you are looking for work thats more challenging now that you're not distracted. Also provide future, unverifiable reasons. I intend to attend the university of XYZ masters program next semester and your office happens to be down the street from the university of XYZ so I was thinking ... And if you end up not attending, well so be it. My girlfriend/mom/dad/bro/uncle is planning on moving right down the street to minimize commute, and we are a close family and oh, look, you're right next door. The laws and lawsuits are so strict that you can pretty much tell HR anything and your former employer will only provide dates titles and salary, or you'll be collecting a large lawsuit paycheck from them. If you're going to tell a story, tell a good, believable, detailed one. Note that if you file a lawsuit, most HR types can search the court record and will ask you why you sued your former employer for wrongful termination when you claimed in the interview that your girlfriend was moving to Austin or whatever. So settling out of court, assuming there is a settlement, is in everyone's best interest not just the former employer. Look on the bright side, better to escape without legal action, than to escape with a "sued his employer" in the court records, which is better than "named in felony proceedings for falsified corporate accounting records" or whatever they were setting up to frame you for. You're in a bad spot but you've avoided so many worse possible spots.
• codegeek 12y ago
  Let me say this very clearly. If your manager has decided to get rid of you, you cannot fight that battle. Do not fight that battle. You will lose. Doesn't matter who is right or wrong. I have seen this so many times in my 11 years of professional experience that I will say this with conviction. Now, if you are really sure that your manager is preparing to fire you, then : "Do I simply begin looking for other positions" Yes, right away. Keep it only to yourself. "Do I report his increasingly erratic behavior, and waste of firm resources?" Don't. At least not yet. It will be a waste of your time and until you are in a strong position (have already found another job etc), you will most likely weaken your position further. Remember, the company will have more interest in keeping the manager and not you. This is not the time to be a whistleblower etc and think about doing the right thing etc. The right thing to do is to look out for yourself by finding another job asap. All the other things can come later if you want. "Do I quit before the period expires?" Find a job if you can within the period and quit then. Do not quit on your own before finding another job. Here is my overall take on this. You need to put yourself in a strong position before doing anything. This means that you have another job lined up. Don't worry about being blacklisted because if you do need a reference, you can always use other colleagues and not necessarily your manager. Remember the saying "most people quit their bosses not the company". And if you can find the new job before getting fired/quitting, then you anyway don't have to use current boss/company as reference because no one does that. You also will not have to explain the details of why you are really quitting. Even though you cannot say with certainty, but whenever a manager puts someone on a "30 day review", it is most likely because they want to get rid of you. Officially, they have to do a bunch of bullshit documentation for HR and legal purposes but your hunch is almost always right. Get out of there if you feel like you are no longer wanted. Do not confront your boss or say anything verbally or in writing. Keep it simple. Find a job, give notice to your current employer/boss in writing which should just say "I am quitting effective xyz date". Be prepared to be fired right away on the spot after your notice if they were anyway going to get rid of you. SO before sending the notice, make sure you have your desk ready to go just in case. I have seen this many times when someone is walked out of their office right away after giving notice when they were anyway going to be fired.
  • saboot 12y ago
    > if you do need a reference, you can always use other colleagues and not necessarily your manager. Is it okay to do this while still being employed at a company? Would you consult the colleague and ask him to not reveal you are looking for a new job? This isn't for OP, but my own knowledge.
• deleted 12y ago
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• deleted 12y ago
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• socialist_coder 12y ago
  > He assigned me to follow the instructions of an "expert" in completing a compliance document (a task in which I am not trained), and the "expert" turned out to be producing documents that are not in compliance with Federal law. The "expert" repeatedly stated in writing that I was doing an "excellent" job, and I am concerned I am facing retaliation for reporting that her work was simply not correct. If that is true, why not escalate this up the chain? Unless there is some big conspiracy / cover up going on, I'm sure upper management would be interested in the truth.
  • xtrumanx 12y ago
    > I'm sure upper management would be interested in the truth. I'm not the OP and I'm sure upper management everywhere are interested in the truth but I'm interested in maintaining the relationship with my direct superiors more. If my direct superiors aren't handling an issue I will never go over their head as it'll probably sour our relationship and nothing will probably get done anyways.
    • impendia 12y ago
      As far as I can tell, the relationship between OP and his/her direct supervisor is completely shot. There is nothing to maintain.
    • sliverstorm 12y ago
      it'll probably sour our relationship If "the issue" is your superior is on a warpath to get you fired, I think that ship has sailed.
    • jodah 12y ago
      Agree with others - any relationship with your immediate superiors is already toast. Anyone who would retaliate against you for doing good work can never be trusted to treat you fairly again. Considering that you want to stay at the company there are really only two ways this could turn out good for you: You bring this up the chain, effectively reporting your supervisor's bad behavior, and wind up reassigned under someone else, or you bring this up the chain and your supervisor gets fired. The latter is the only scenario that really gives you a good shot of remaining at the company without being hassled, and it sounds like your supervisor's behavior was bad enough to warrant their dismissal. Some people do horrible things and their companies protect them. Maybe they're politically connected, well-liked, or valuable for other reasons. The way I look at this overall is that the company is either good enough to stop this sort of retaliatory behavior or they're not, in which case you shouldn't want to work for them anyways. Good luck.
• learnstats2 12y ago
  Is whistleblowing a serious option? Given your evidence that your boss is producing illegal documents, you should consider taking this higher up - if they will care. Of course, it's possible that the boss is covering for company policy. The boss currently thinks that firing you is the most effective way to make the problem disappear. For the reasons you set out, you should act to change that. My suggestion is to make it clear (strongly imply, without directly stating) that you will whistle-blow if you remain on probation or are otherwise mistreated.
  • woah 12y ago
    Sounds like pretty bad advice to blackmail the manager. Find a new job, then blow the whistle if it is what needs to be done. Don't try to blackmail the manager to keep the job, because if you succeed you will be an accessory to whatever the crime is.
    • learnstats2 12y ago
      If it was up to me, I would have whistleblown already. I said that first. I guess the manager understands that the OP will not whistleblow. Indeed, the OP doesn't seem to have considered it an option. This is exactly what allows the manager to treat the OP this way. The OP needs to show the manager otherwise. Even if the OP finds a moderately nicer job later on, which I am sure they will, they need to do more to avoid reaching such a position in the first place. Or, this will happen again.
      • s_q_b 12y ago
        Just to be perfectly clear, blackmail is not an option, as it is both illegal and unethical, and I will not do anything of the sort. I would also like to ensure that I correct the original comment in that I do not have sufficient legal knowledge to be certain that anything illegal or improper was done, which is why I am consulting with counsel before acting.
        • learnstats2 12y ago
• heldtogether 12y ago
  It sounds very much like you're a whistleblower of some crime, which gives you protection against the sort of retaliation you're describing. See http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower for more information about legal protection. Now, you're not immune to workforce politics so there may still be reasons why you'd be fired but I definitely wouldn't accept it without finding out a lot more about your situation and potentially escalating the complaint.
  • s_q_b 12y ago
    According to my counsel, whistleblower protection laws wouldn't necessarily apply in this case (IANAL, so I'm unsure as to why.) Also, this industry does not treat whistleblowers well, so I'm hesitant to take this route, yet. But I want to make sure I follow firm policy very precisely regarding these issues, so I'm consulting closely with legal counsel.
• grecy 12y ago
  > but I am most concerned that being fired would place future job prospects in jeopardy In sounds like your colleagues know you're doing a great job and are an asset - use them as references on your resume for any future jobs, and there is no need to mention you were fired - you can just say you're ready for new challenges.
• codezero 12y ago
  Find a new role as fast as possible and get out of this situation without burning too many bridges on the way. Your quality of life will improve greatly when you are far away from a supervisor who's actively diminishing you and your work.
• pswenson 12y ago
  Tough situation. If you want to stand up for yourself you could go over your boss's head. Risky, could get you fired immediately, but could get your boss fired/disciplined and save your position. You could consult with a lawyer for advice... The safest thing to do is go with the flow and quit (finding a new job first if possible). But just because something is safe doesn't mean it's the right way to go...
• someoneElse123 12y ago
  Let's assume that you somehow don't get fired at the end of the review period. Do you still want to work for this person/company? get out while you can.
• someoneElse123 12y ago
  Let's assume that you somehow don't get fired at the end of the review period. Do you still want to work for this person/company? get out while you can.
• dmethvin 12y ago
  My thought is that you should speak to a lawyer who is experienced in these kind of disputes. Bringing in a lawyer to represent you pretty much burns the bridge but it sounds like you will either want or have to leave anyway. If this is a large company, they do not want to get involved in a protracted dispute, especially if it might become public. This is true regardless of what you have done that might legitimately make them want to get rid of you. Yes, you don't want to ruin your own reputation as an employee for a future employer, but they have much more to lose in most cases. You would be surprised how far companies will go to avoid outright terminating someone. In past jobs I have been in management and had to deal with people who had anger management problems, drug problems, and sexually harassed co-workers. Despite the documentation for these issues they were given up to 6 months to find other jobs and/or terminated with several months of severance for signing an agreement they wouldn't sue. A lawyer will generally give you a free consultation and could write a letter on your behalf for a few hundred dollars. If your case seems to have more merit, they may be willing to take it on contingency.
  • walshemj 12y ago
    And also turning up with lawyer will increase the chance of getting a compromise agreement and will get your managers card marked by more senior people.
• kfk 12y ago
  Most big firms have a concern line/department you can report to in case of ethics or internal policy compliance issues, check, but maybe they won't even reveal your identity. If there is no such a line, I would start looking for another job if the felony is not a serious one, otherwise I would ask advice to a lawer. You seem to be somewhat junior? It seems to me you don't have enough experience to navigate the political landscape of your firm and a wrong move there might really hurt your carrier, so probably changing job is the best long term strategy here.
• RomanPushkin 12y ago
  Start looking for other positions asap. Don't rely on things beyond your control.
• guyzero 12y ago
  Why would you be blackballed? I've been fired twice and it never really did anything for my job prospects. It sucked but it wasn't terminal. There's a strong demand for data scientists. And most organizations won't discuss why you left for fear of being sued - because if they do slander you to other companies, a lawsuit is a real possibility. So maybe you're right. If you think it's a real possibility than quit, certainly. And it's not an either/or option - you can escalate the issue to senior management and quit at the same time. Anyway, overall it sucks but you will survive. Good luck.
• ashleyp 12y ago
  DO NOT give into this person because of fear!!! The moment you do that, he has you. Out of curiosity, why stay in a place where they clearly feel they can just fire people at a moments notice like you're some statistic? Could you hand in your job notice and quit before going through being fired? Do that and report the guy at the same time? If he's done this to you, who else can he do this too?
• cryodesign 12y ago
  I'd get advice from an employment lawyer right away, sounds quite dicey your situation, I'm sure your manager had to fill out a bunch of forms and give specific reasons to put you on a 30 day review. Can you find out what those reasons were? Questioning the work of an 'expert' (was that person a contractor?) surely can't be an official reason to put you on review. Also get your previous performance reports, that will hopefully show that whatever reasons he put down for placing you under 30 day review are out of character and unusual. Edit: typos
  • mdesq 12y ago
    This is absolutely essential advice. Consult with a good employment lawyer as soon as possible. They will know the legal issues at play and can counsel you on what steps to take / not take. Unfortunately, it sounds like you may be in a situation where a single misstep could be used against you. You need an understanding of what your rights are, and what your protections may be under the law. A good employment lawyer will be able to help with that. In the meantime, I would begin a journal and start taking notes (with dates/times) on what you have been told, observations you have made, etc. This may be helpful both to the lawyer as well as anyone else when you are asked to recall things. This way, it's contemporaneous note-taking as your reference, and not some attempted recollection from some time considered long past.
• bdcravens 12y ago
  > I have no desire to lose my job, but I am most concerned that being fired would place future job prospects in jeopardy. First of all, you're not going to work here forever. You'll let laid off, or get pushed out in an acquisition, or find a better gig down the road, or get fired for cause. No one stays at a job forever. Secondly, don't place so much faith in your "permanent record". Yeah, getting fired can impact you, but not as significantly as you think. I've had some jobs I seriously screwed up on, but I'm far from the soup kitchen today. Even if someone notices, there are laws regarding disclosure, and you will get interviews. In today's world of high profile ethical failures, your response to why you were terminated will make you stand out. People around the world are dying for their beliefs. Don't stand for having imaginary potential consequences dangled in front of you like a carrot prevent you from doing the proper thing.
• pkaye 12y ago
  Main thing is make sure you have collaborating evidence against your manager. Like good past reviews and coworkers who would support you. HR loyalty lies up the management chain so normally it is an up hill battle. But if you are a good performer and have others who support you, HR can be turned around.
• fsk 12y ago
  I've been unfairly fired several times, so my advice is: 1. Forget it, that job is over, it can't be salvaged. Knowing it's over, do the minimum work. 2. Start actively looking. Even if you don't find a new job within 30 days, you'll start getting interviews in your pipeline. 3. If it's so bad that it's making you sick (trouble sleeping, etc.), then just walk away now. Otherwise, there are advantages to saying on to the end. They might offer you some salary as severance. You might be eligible for unemployment. Even if they do fire you, for legal reasons, they'll probably word it as a layoff rather than a firing for cause. 4. I'd advise against a whisteblower lawsuit. It's a lot of stress with no guarantee of winning. 5. Don't be sure that you'll be blackballed. There's always another job.
  • baldfat 12y ago
    I would counter. Don't get fired. If need be resign, but I would do everything I could to not be fired. Secondly I have thought that I was doing a good job but I was viewed negatively. I later found out that an ounce of criticism or attitude ruined my whole perspective. I had to learn that one comment or one person didn't decide who liked me. I just rolled with the punches and talked to managers and other non-related co-workers if they saw things the same way, but without complaining or seeing myself as a negative fault finding Nancy.
    • fsk 12y ago
      Verbal criticism is one thing. Being put on a performance improvement plan (PIP) is another thing. Most of the time, your boss will only fill out a PIP as a precursor to firing you, because the bureaucracy requires it.
    • AH4oFVbPT4f8 12y ago
      I don't agree with resigning. If you resign and are in the US, you give up the ability to file for unemployment. I would start cutting expenses and start looking for something new until that day comes.
      • ErrantX 12y ago
• lightlyused 12y ago
  "When I raised that issue, he immediately began the process of putting me on a 30 day review, a necessary step prior to termination." Document document document. Don't quit your job and when and if they do fire you. Sue. It sounds to me like your manger is retaliating against you because they are trying to cover something up. That is never ok and if HR is not handling it, than stand your ground and let the lawyers handle it.
• zerr 12y ago
  >blackballed from most firms in this city Why? Do you have some kind of Public Hall of Shame where you put those who have been fired? Or do you live in some small village where everyone knows everyone and everything? Really interesting.
  • pekk 12y ago
    "References required"
    • fredkbloggs 12y ago
      Anyone who's ever worked with you can be a reference. It's normal to choose someone other than your immediate superior as a reference, especially if you're interviewing elsewhere while still employed there. Anyone who insists specifically on speaking to your previous (or current!) supervisor is nuts. Never had that happen at any time in my long career.
  • alexqgb 12y ago
    The problem is that while prospective employers can't ask your companies HR dept. to verify anything beyond the most basic facts of your tenure, they can make note of whether your direct manager is included in your list of references. The fear (perhaps unjustified) is that any signal indicating a less-than-amicible seperation will be treated as a red flag by potential employers, who would prefer to give the position to someone who is either recruited for that spot in particular, or is trading up cleanly. This is less of an issue for people with a specific and clearly demonstrable skill set that's in high demand, but to the extent that finding a new position demands some growth on your part (i.e. an employer willing to place some faith in having you develop on their dime) this can add to the potentially crippling sense of self-doubt and insecurity that a situation like the OP described will engender. There's a school of thought that says your optimal career moves should be based on you getting yourself into places you want to be, not running from places you don't want to be. If you know this, and you're in a situation like this, you already feel you're having to make the most of a bad hand, and that where ever you go next may end up being a severe compromise you have to live with for some time.
• arbre 12y ago
  Don't worry too much about the impact on your career. People know that these things can happen. The recruiters might have had similar experiences themselves. Fight if there is an injustice and then move forward. I wish you luck !
• yason 12y ago
  Before proceeding with the steps to ensure your personal future, spend some time thinking why it's you who's involved in this? Why are you put in such a situation, possibly in the role of a whistleblower? Is there something greater that is screaming to be done regardless of how you will personally survive? Don't literally think but take some time to listen to something inside of you. Maybe there's a call for you. If you're sure there isn't, the next step is to go practical. Stop thinking you will not get a future if you get fired. The future is not set. There's very little, if anything, a manager or even a company can do to prevent you from getting another job in the same city. Getting fired because of not agreeing to unlawful practices trumps bad-mouthing any day. Make a local copy of the evidence and store it safe. If someone wants to play hardball you don't want your position to rely on your word or anyone else's. I'm not a US citizen but if there's something done not according to the Federal law I could imagine some Federal authority might be very interested in it. Start looking for a position elsewhere. Consider your job done: don't look back. You can do that later when you're safe in another job but now is not the time. You can take a "lesser job" because you can explain it away as being fired because of not tolerating unlawful practices. At least you have your feet on solid ground again. Then escalate the matter to your manager's boss or his boss. There should be someone in the company (or someone who's invested in the company) who's interested in unlawful compliance documents. If there isn't, run fast and don't look back. If the compliance matter reaches parties outside the company and nobody in the company wants to do anything about it, go talk to the police if non-compliance could cause harm to other people. If the matter is company internal, leave it there: the company will eventually sink with all their baggage if they tolerate such practices. Once you've made a plan to survival, cherish the opportunity. What would you have wanted to do if only things hadn't been so good as for your employer earlier in time? What could you try now that you're off the hook anyway and have no reason to hold back to something? What are the things are have been impossible but could now be chosen?
  • wwweston 12y ago
    > Make a local copy of the evidence and store it safe. If someone wants to play hardball you don't want your position to rely on your word or anyone else's. Quoting for truth. What companies with formalized processes like "30 day review period" are doing with their time is trying to produce a paper trail, usually to defend a decision that's already been made on some level. You want to be doing the same thing (and, if possible, finding out what kind of trail they're possibly producing)... not necessarily to defend your continued current employment (though that's an option if you want to and you've got good enough evidence), but in case this issue ever comes up in the future.
• chdir 12y ago
  Unfortunately in such situations there's little you can do legally unless you have a good trail. Regarding reporting up, do read some of the advice here as to whose side HR would take : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8600716 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8600716 Since the damage has already been done (putting you on a performance review), the rest is just a matter of time. By damage, I don't mean any damage to your reputation outside the company though. It's better to start job hunting while you weigh your options about a legal case or talking to higher-ups. In most of the cases I've seen, it's easier & cheaper to just walk away. However, if you are very confident that someone higher-up would be genuinely interested in knowing the truth, then you should get in touch with them. Whatever you decide, start searching for jobs.
• steven2012 12y ago
  I've been in this same situation as you. You can and will not win against your boss. You can either try to transfer into another group outside of the reach of your current boss, or you need to leave. But the fact you are on performance review means that transferring might be very hard, unless you've made good relationships with other groups that would take you on. Those are your only two options so act quickly. There is no way so salvage the situation. 30-day performance reviews are really just a way to fire you but to avoid a lawsuit. I find it hard to believe you will be blackballed in the entire city unless you work in a very small city. But you have no choice. And next job you get, you should consider the things you say and who you are saying them to. Some people take criticism well, and others like your boss will try to fire you. Learn from this experience.
  • jqm 12y ago
    "You can and will not win against your boss." That is certainly not necessarily true. But it is a probably.
• walshemj 12y ago
  Can you file a grievance against your boss using the company's procedures?
• moron4hire 12y ago
  I think you're grossly over estimating the impact of getting fired.
• jms703 12y ago
  You don't want to work for this kind of company. Start interviewing now. If you're really worried about the fallout from termination, then quit. If you're as good as you say you are, your departure will have an impact and you'll have your choice of jobs.
• jfoutz 12y ago
  Most companies provide nothing beyond verifying employment dates - start and end. Providing more opens them up to lawsuits. I didn't get hired at $NEW_PLACE because $OLD_PLACE told them i watched cat videos all day. You're working for an organization that's broken. Perhaps someone can fix their legal and ethical problems, but fixing that is not data science. There's nothing wrong with letting people higher up know, so they can perhaps resolve the issues. But remember, it takes a long time to turn a big ship. if there's already a culture of willfully avoiding ethics and the law, thats a long long process. Do you want to spend your valuable time fighting that fight, or doing good work? I'd start looking for a new place right now.
• kelukelugames 12y ago
  1. Do not talk to anyone else in the company about this issue. Do not trust HR or legal. 2. Document everything. Write down the conversation you had with your boss word for word. Go do that right now. 3. Save proof of the violations. Save proof of you reporting it. Save your "excellent" job reports. It will be harder for them to justify firing an excellent employee. Realize that data loss prevention software will tell the company you saved the examples. 4. Consult with an employment lawyer. In fact, go see two or three. 5. This is the most important step. Find a new job. Pretend everything is okay so you don't come off as desperate.
  • EliRivers 12y ago
    Do not trust HR or legal. Oh God yes. Everything they do, everything, is about protecting the company. They will lie to you, they will screw you over, and anything you say to them will be used against you in some way.
    • AH4oFVbPT4f8 12y ago
      Just to make it clear, HR and legal work to protect THE COMPANY not you.
    • semi-extrinsic 12y ago
      I'm a little surprised that everyone is saying "avoid HR" (I have no experience with being on the wrong side of management or HR, yet). Can anyone comment on whether this is US specific or if it applies equally in western Europe?
      • vacri 12y ago
        I don't know about western Europe, but here in Australia, I've heard the story "I went to HR and things improved" exactly once. Usually it's a neutral 'we can't do anything' and sometimes it's makes things so much worse. I've heard far more success going outside HR channels - like say talking to a boss's boss or a boss's colleague.
      • kelukelugames 12y ago
• pknerd 12y ago
  In my last job I had faced similar situation. The HOD wanted to get rid of me to colleagues and higher-ups. Unlike you I did not hesitate termination. Once my dues were clear I wrote an email to entire department, HOD, HRM and CEO and shared everything. The end result, I felt satisfied and some other pals saved themselves by quitting themselves. Moral of the story: Be Courageous. If you are skilled you will get a job anyway. Who knows someone from HN already has approached to you?
  • pekk 12y ago
    "If you are skilled you will get a job" implies that the only people who aren't getting jobs are unskilled, and that is very much false.
    • deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
• DanBC 12y ago
  What does your union rep say?
• 2390902390 12y ago
  Throwaway for some reasons. I would like to be fired, but I was never lucky enough: 1) in my country you get 3 months redundancy (unless you steal or make other crime on company). 2) you get 1 year unemployment support. Not gonna happen if you resign on your own. 3) as alimony slave you can not quit your job. Being fired is opportunity to find less demanding job. Anyway for your issue I would recommend two things: 1) go to your boss, tell him you do not care about his screw ups, and ask to be reassigned far away from him to different department, or different company. Explain him how bad your situation is, and that he is going down with you. 2) Discover that you are gay or your great-great-great-great grandfather was from Africa.
• davismwfl 12y ago
  1. Don't quit before/unless you have another position, let them fire you. 2. Getting fired will not blackball you, companies do not validate anything generally beyond dates of employment, salary and sometimes "eligible for rehire", but that has become more uncommon to ask/answer. I have seen at large firms even when a person is terminated for valid reasons, and the manager and executives have said they will never work here again, HR will answer the question "Yes" to eligible for rehire. This is because they know answering it any other way can lead to a potential law suit which may unearth unrelated facts during discovery that would be damaging. 3. If you get fired and are on an interview, don't lie about being terminated if asked, and don't plea your case to them, they don't care and will not look fond on you pleading a case or dishing details on a former employer. If directly asked if you were terminated, just say yes I was let go. Generally most people won't push for why, but if they do, you could say something along the lines, well over the past few months (or whatever time period) my manager needed a different skill set on the team then I posses and so I wasn't a good fit any longer. Frankly, his/her skill set you were lacking is dishonesty or questionable morals however you want to look at it. So you aren't lying, just framing the conversation so it isn't negative to the company or really yourself. 4. Even in small towns you can find another job, larger towns is even easier, don't panic. It is scary but don't panic. 5. As for the situation, you can send an email to your manager or the the director in charge of your department again. Do it not with the goal of saving your job or making enemies, but with protecting your ass so that if something shady really is found later you are insulated. Make sure you keep a copy of the email and while likely not ideal, I would bcc my personal email as well as print a hard copy.
  • pekk 12y ago
    It's simply false that companies do not validate anything beyond dates of employment. Supposedly all companies are so terrified of lawsuits they won't do anything, but actually there is no mechanism which will allow the candidate to discover what was mentioned on the back channel, and the good old boy network is very much alive. If someone wants to make sure you don't get hired, there are ways. When it comes to your own life, please don't trust this Pollyanna advice from HN which is coming from people who have not had any problems like this.
• eranation 12y ago
  My tips. 1. never criticize your boss, your company or their practices, this is number one way to get fired. yes even if they are completely wrong. your sole job in your job is to make your boss look good. I know it sounds unpopular but this is the way people get promoted vs fired, kind of obvious, but many people still think that if "They do the right thing" that they are clear. This is not something HR will tell you and is against all of our beliefs, but it's the case. If what your boss did is illegal, leave an anonymous tip to the police with evidence making it hard to link it to you but keep private proof that you sent the tip so your are not abiding a crime if it later goes to court. 2. your job quality is derived by 2 factors - a) whether you do something you love, b) the quality of of your direct manager. In your case your boss is an asshole, and you should leave the company regardless. 3. I'm really worried to hear things like "if I get fired, I'll never work in this town again". Where do you live? How powerful is your boss? As a hiring manager, I never got an email list with a subject "people who should never work in this town again". 4. Reporting your boss to HR is a huge risk, it has very low changes of succeeding, but if HR really likes you and really dislike your boss, and you are really a valuable asset to the company more than your boss, than there is a small chance that you'll "win" and get him fired. 9/10, it's going to be you who will be shown the door, but YMMV. I say - go look for another job, find a manager that will not be a jerk, in a company that promotes openness and good culture. I can't imagine that a data scientist, one of the most sought after and trending jobs in the US will have hard time finding a better job. Am I being delusional?
  • davemel37 12y ago
    This. I am no psychologist, but from your post it sounds like you are wound somewhat tight and worry about everything. Not to worry, here are some things to consider. Losing your job might be the best thing to ever happen to you. What do I mean? Well, for someone who worries a ton, going through a struggle and coming out the other side unscathed will help you worry less and take more risks in the future...which will open you up to new opportunities. There is a reason many successful people have gone through bankruptcies...It's because they learned the hard way that losing everything financially is not a death sentence...and they come back without fear... Fear is a killer to success. Now's your chance to conquer fear! Here is a partial list of famous successful people who went through a bankruptcy before succeeding...(From Dan Kennedy's Book, "Wealth Attraction For Entrepreneuers" P.T. Barnum, David Buick, Walt Disney, James Folger, Henry Ford, Conrad Hilton, J.C. Penny, Sam Walton, William Fox, H.J. Heinz, and Frank Lloyd Wright.... As Pink Says, " Where there is a flame, Someone's bound to get burned. But just because it burns, Doesn't mean you're gonna die. You've gotta get up and try"
• mpdehaan2 12y ago
  I would definitely mention this in a short email to your bosses direct supervisor, or if you don't trust him, as far up the chain as you would like to go, if this involves violating law, you obviously need to not violate that. However, the chances that they will side with you are low, so remain very civil, and be ok if that happens. There is a chance they won't terminate your boss - and will try to get you to "patch things over", which probably won't work. Still, you're nicely on the record for having reported it. If they don't respect you for nicely reporting it, it sounds like you don't want to be there anyway. While it may be unwise to say "don't get a lawyer", I don't think you want to win that fight, as then they really will not want to have you aboard. I'd also consider the matter of the compliance document - if this is just something like import/export compliance, it's really not that hard, and your boss may have been reacting to the tone in which it was brought up, rather than what you brought up. Sounds like it's a bit more than that though. Companies are very likely to lay people off these days, especially so they can get them to sign agreements that limit their ability to converse on topics (i.e. severance or at least mutual non-dispargement agreements, waiving ability to sue, etc). They are unlikely to actually fire you, and if they do, I'd just be very up front about what happened when talking to companies you are interviewing with. They are likely to understand. It's all in your emotions and how you talk about it. Having good positive references at that company is of course a good thing to have as well. Do be looking for a job now though.
  • deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
• davemel37 12y ago
  >"I am facing retaliation for reporting that her work was simply not correct." >"this supervisor has been angry with me since I pointed out to him a few months ago that he may have violated firm policy in a severe way." Is there a pattern here of noticing others mistakes and pointing it out them? Whether right or not, I know very few people who would want to work with someone constantly looking for their mistakes and jumping on the opportunity to point it out to them. One thing is for sure, you are too much of a straight shooter to work in the "major firm" or atleast with the department you work for...clearly, they are less concerned with following every rule to the letter. My advice, especially if you don't plan on changing, is to leave, and be open with interviewers about being a straight shooter...this will scare off the companies that you will certainly run into problems with, and hopefully help you find work with others who share your values.
• drchiu 12y ago
  If your firm did indeed commit a unlawful offence, you should call them out on it. Your career at this firm is over either way. Last thing you want to do is to be dragged back in when their offence is revealed and they use you as a scapegoat. Be on the offensive.
• brudgers 12y ago
  A lot of compliance is just going through the motions and then doing whatever it is you want. If it's any consolation, that's something I wrestle with regularly in my professional life. Ultimately, only a court can determine what is or isn't in compliance with Federal Law. Everyone else just has a non-binding opinion. That's the nature of our adversarial system, and different from what is and isn't against one's ethics. Any company big enough to have a 30 day review process is big enough that HR doesn't really want a mess on their hands and neither do the people responsible for other aspects of compliance. Talk to HR. Ask them to transfer you. Polish your CV. Look for other work. Don't quit because you will give up unemployment benefits. Good luck.
• remyp 12y ago
  Even if you get "blackballed" in your city (which seems unlikely) that doesn't stop you from finding a remote position with a firm in another city.
• Firegarden 12y ago
  Listen man. There is a certain power in walking away. Don't give that away. Think about your power for a minute. How much power would it be to hand in a written letter CLEARLY outlining the issue described using MINIMAL WORDS? Somebody would have to look at the situation in detail and if you really deserved to be commended for your honesty then it would come out. The tables would be completely turned. 1. You would have officially quit. HUGE WIN 2. You would have an opportunity for others to see your side of the story FIRST 3. You may have some chance of coming out on top and even staying with the firm if your letter was written with "much regret" that you absolutely have no other choice because of the hostility and actions of retaliation etc. 4. You can take that letter to the next employer and say I stand behind my actions in a tough situation. Stay with your power man. You don't want to risk carry around the victim chip forever more you will either be telling this story as a sore loser or as a man with a power and sense of right that can never be taken from you by a "superior". Bottom line it's victim vs empowerment perspective. In your question post (no offense) you sound like a victim of some one else's actions against you. Really it's just one perspective. Assume the self empowered perspective and they will have no choice but to recognize. Tell the story of how you don't take BS you throw it in the trash. Fuk you, fuk you, your cool, fu*k you im out. [EDIT] P.S. If you really want to step it up and become movie ending cool. You get that letter done up and you walk in with it. You show the envelope to the bad boss and you say in a private way to only him "I am handing this in to watch you suck tomorrows dick".
  • dllthomas 12y ago
    "1. You would have officially quit. HUGE WIN" Until you have to collect unemployment, or sue for wrongful termination.
    • Firegarden 12y ago
      Do you want to suck on your mammys tits too? First of all if this is a case where you can't get another job and need unemployment then it's a different story - for example probably need to be fired. Second if your going to sue them then it's again more hardcore. Otherwise man up and quit. People are so afraid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ8oIsVDoa0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ8oIsVDoa0
• a3n 12y ago
  It's 30 days notice. Start looking. Resign before being fired if you can.
• atlih 12y ago
  Don't worry about it. There's plenty of need for Data Scientists and the need is growing exponentially in the months to come.
• jedanbik 12y ago
  Well, if you are in North Carolina, you should email me, as we are hiring data scientists. :)
  • LyndsySimon 12y ago
    Ditto here, Virginia.
• late2part 12y ago
  You're a data scientist - one of the hottest jobs out there. Go find a place where you don't work for an asshole, and you can have fun. Email me if you're having a hard time finding a job, I'll probably hire you.
• junto 12y ago
  In summarising many of the excellent advice here you should: Maintain your professionalism Seek independent legal advice Avoid HR like the plague Assume that you will be fired. You cannot win. Start looking for a new job immediately. Document everything for any legal proceedings later. Ask colleagues you trust if they would provide you with a reference once you have secured new employment. Do not fear leaving your job for another. Opportunity knocks. Good luck and remain positive. Don't let this get you down.
  • late2part 12y ago
    If this is * fait accompli* and it is going to happen, then by all means, I would involve HR, under the advice of your counsel. I would tell HR that you're being punitively punished for bringing up an ethics violation with your boss. I would tell them that your counsel has advised you that you have certain rights, and you expect to be treated fairly. I surmise that will force them to offer you more to get you to leave quietly, or maybe force them to investigate the asinine behavior of your boss, assuming we perceive the situation correctly. Do Not Go Gentle into That Good Night!!!!
• CodeWriter23 12y ago
  I believe rejection is the universe's way of helping you find out where you truly belong. It is hard to see that in the present; it really can only be observed in hindsight.
• elxavit0 12y ago
  It does sound like a 30 day notice. I'd start looking elsewhere right away. To that end, there's a job fair being put on by EdSurge in Redwood City where a bunch of EdTech companies will be sending reps. There are 12 spots currently left for job seekers. Pretty sure your skills as a Data Scientist are valuable to many EdTech companies. Here's the link to sign up for the job fair: http://www.meetup.com/sfedtech/events/221583848/ http://www.meetup.com/sfedtech/events/221583848/
• operat0r 12y ago
  Going to run counter to the stream here - don't quit and don't give up on the company. Every firm has crappy managers and your references to "compliance" tell me there's a fear of lawsuits. This sounds like you are being thrown under the bus by an ineffective and frightened (those two usually go together) manager. There may be a sense (which may or may not be coming from that manager) that it's cheaper to fix the problem by fixing the blame. 1. Do not check out. You don't have to quit. The PIP is a process. Lots of people come through PIPs, don't believe it's a one-way route out of the company. It's not. It is a flag that you and your manager are not on the same page about expectations and is more like a DUI or a divorce - one is unfortunate but happens to more people than you think. You find the problem, make changes and continue. More than one..that's a different problem. 2. Understand and use the PIP process. If the manager is doing all of the documenting and you are not, that's what we call a no-contest. You don't want to fight or offer opinions - focus on facts, emails, ccs, phone calls, meeting notes. Document this as your side of the PIP process. This will probably not get your manager to back down, but 1) establishes your position for anything else that's about to happen and 2) gives some back and forth to the process, which slows it down long enough for you to get to #3. 3) Are there options for a transfer? This is a discussion that you can have with HR (yes, they are there to keep the company from being sued and not for your well being, BUT remember they are also not there for your manager's well-being either; they are partly there to try and retain people who are good contributors because it costs more money to get a new employee than it costs to keep a good one). The key is how you are perceived by people other than your manager - especially your manager's peers. They are the ones who can find a new home for you inside the company if they think you are worth the investment. It's best if they thought that before this happened, but it's still not too late - you just need to know the room. Anyway, best of luck and I hope you're hearing the majority of comments here that says this is not the end of your life or your career. It happens sometimes, and people move on if you are professional and can look at this more as training than misfortune.
• spiritplumber 12y ago
  If you are not passionate about your current projects: Find the big boss of your company, and explain the situation, then note that you're trying to avoid starting a whistleblower lawsuit by going directly to the person in charge. If that fails, keep doing your job well until day zero, but document everything illegal on a SD card or similar, and then take it to the law the moment they kick you out. It may be useful to talk to the appropriate regulatory agency NOW. If you are passionate about your current projects, I have no real advice to offer... What I would do is probably something odd, like explaining to people that me being fired will not prevent me from finishing said projects and that anyone who has a problem with it is likely to be ignored or physically kept out of my way with whatever means I may deem necessary. However, I cannot in conscience recommend that anyone do this, it's probably one of those things that only work with me.
• eweise 12y ago
  Contact an employment lawyer. Are you over 40? Do you work overtime? Are you covered under whistle blower laws? You are probably going to lose your job but you may have a solid lawsuit.
• joshribakoff 12y ago
  Whats more likely, that your boss "gets off" on wrongfully firing you, or that there's some attitude problem you don't recognize about yourself? I'm going to say something that'll probably be unpopular & rude, but you want an honest answer. I don't know the full story, but from your own accounting of it - it does sound like you have a problematic attitude & the problem may be with you & not the company. Your boss told you to follow someone's instructions & work under a person. Instead of helping, you went above that person's head & above your bosses head & consumed time auditing your superiors. You also called them an "expert" (backhanded compliment). Personally I'd rather hire someone less skilled who follows instructions. If someone asks me what I think about a person's work, I'll be honest & say its not in compliance, but it sounds like you're going around actively telling on people for trivial stuff. They have a right to weed that type of attitude out, and you have a right to seek employment that values that type of attitude - so stop fooling yourself with this talk about "fair" & "not fair". If you're in an at-will work state there's no such thing as "unfair" termination. They don't want you anymore. Either make them want you (by being honest with yourself about what they disliked), or accept it & move on.
  • s_q_b 12y ago
    I've thought that through deeply, but the reality is that this isn't about fairness, this about a very specific set of actions. I didn't "go around telling on" anyone. I simply told my project manager that we couldn't use the document I was instructed to write for the purpose he was asking, because ethically I did not feel it would bring us into compliance with a mandated standard. I am sure your intentions are good here, and certainly this a time to reflect, but I am not complaining about fairness of anything. It's simply not ethical to put someone on review for raising an issue after months of careful consideration, especially given that my superior concurred with the judgment, and cut ties with the "expert" under whom we working. (I put "expert" in quotes not for snark, but because I want to be clear that this is the firm's terminology, not mine.) I should also note that my colleague with whom I worked on the project, but is outside of my superior's chain of command, concurred with my concerns and stated so as well.
• cryptoglyph 12y ago
  The most important task you need to accomplish in the next week is this: Consult with criminal defense counsel with experience in this area of federal compliance—particularly because of the possibility that the documents you were helping to create were contrary to law. 18 USC § 1001 is a frightening statute with exceptionally broad applicability. Even if it wasn't you signing the form, if you were helping to complete the form, an Assistant US Attorney might see you as a target for a conspiracy charge. Although conspiracy requires proof of intent, that doesn't mean your life can't be wrecked by a wayward or overly zealous AUSA, even if you are exonerated later. You may need, under whatever area of law applies here, to whistleblow to remove any potential taint on your activity. Or maybe counsel would advise you to lay low. Hard to say. That's why it's important to talk to counsel in this area of law. Secondly, you may have cause of action for a whistleblower lawsuit. You may end up deciding not to proceed for several reasons already mentioned in other comments (expensive, time consuming, etc.), but you should seek competent legal advice from an employment attorney as well.
• supertruth 12y ago
  Okay it seems like you want to keep this job so that's step one. The goal here is to keep the job. Now just arrange the chess pieces to accomplish your goal. Here are two things I would keep in mind: 1. Do exceptionally good work for the next 30 days. Bust Your Ass. Most likely this is his way of reasserting his superior status over you since you went out of line. You need to show him that he's the master and you're the subordinate. The best way to do that is to bust your ass and do the work the way he's dictated that he wants the work done. Don't do this passive-aggressively or in a desperate way, do this with determination, with purpose, authentically. Like you were born and live to serve him. Once you've pleased his ego, he'll have a harder time rationalizing firing you. 2. DO NOT COMPLAIN TO HR/LEGAL. Only say good things about your boss and how's he's so intelligent and you really respect his leadership and blah blah. Swallow your pride and openly acknowledge his criticisms of you and say this whole process is helping you grow as a person and be better. Repeat: DO NOT COMPLAIN TO HR/LEGAL NO EXCEPTIONS IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU THINK THEY ARE YOUR FRIEND. If you have negative things to say about him/the company, they will begin their campaign to disarm you and support the decision to let you go. On a meta-note. I think you should actually leave the company and find a company/manager with a supportive culture. By staying at this company you are stunting yourself. You seem too dependent and fearful and that is a recipe for life-long stress and anxiety, both of which will ultimately kill you. Improve your independence and self-reliance, find another job. I've hired and fired many people and I can tell you that getting fired is not that bad. Companies know there are bad companies and that personalities don't always mix. What matters most to a potential future employer is not if you've been fired but if you can actually do good work and you fit in. If you do good work and there are companies where you can fit in, you don't need to fear being fired from anywhere. You'll find your place.
  • mhurron 12y ago
    > 2. DO NOT COMPLAIN TO HR/LEGAL. Only say good things about your boss and how's he's so intelligent and you really respect his leadership and blah blah. Swallow your pride and openly acknowledge his criticisms of you and say this whole process is helping you grow as a person and be better. Repeat: DO NOT COMPLAIN TO HR/LEGAL NO EXCEPTIONS IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU THINK THEY ARE YOUR FRIEND. If you have negative things to say about him/the company, they will begin their campaign to disarm you and support the decision to let you go. This is idiotic. Yes, HR is there to protect the company. However this advice relies on you stating that you believe your manager is correct and stating there is nothing wrong with the way your manager is acting or between you and them. Given that, and your manager now recommends firing, since you have openly admitted your boss was correct in everything he is firing you for and made it clear there are no personal issues between you and your boss, HR is going to completely support the decision to fire you. You have shot yourself in the foot. Nothing changes if you don't raise issues. HR is protecting the company, but that would also include not holding onto a manager with a lot of complaints against them.
• NicoJuicy 12y ago
  Ca
• NicoJuicy 12y ago
  Can you go over their heads? If you have any problems, there is almost always someone to raise issues to. If you love your jobs, your collegue appreciate you ( 3rd party references inside the company you can mention) and your previous peer reviews have always been positive, any boss can see there is something wrong... I'd go over their heads, be bald. If it doesn't work, you have lost NOTHING... Don't threat the company, because then they will take it personal. Specify what is the problem and that you love working there. Mention the raised issue about the legal problems to your boss. Say that you mentioned it as a good employee and only had negative or no feedback about it. Other companies know that there can go something wrong, because there is always a "people" aspect in a company.. Don't worry about that.
• SEJeff 12y ago
  Have you considered reporting your supervisor to his supervisor? Talking to HR?
• mavdi 12y ago
  Mate my two cents: move on. I see a lot of comments urging you to fight this tooth and nail but it really isn't worth it. It's a losing battle, the job is lost and whatever you do to try to win it back will not work unless some miracle happens. Save your energy for a new job, a better job working for people that value honesty and integrity.
• funtober 12y ago
  Hi. Nights & weekends startup founder with a day job at a whistleblower law firm here. [1]. The following comes with all of the standard caveats about this not being legal advice. [2]. I'm going to talk generally and you can draw your own conclusions. But my advice is to call an employment attorney tomorrow so they can give you specific advice. Most will do a free initial consultation, and anyone good would take a look at whether you should be reporting this to the government under one of the whistleblower programs. Quitting is almost always a bad idea unless you have enough savings to last a ridiculously long time. If someone quits, they forfeit unemployment in most situations. Future employers will ask you why you quit, and you will be in essentially the same position as if you were let go. Interviewing: Everyone should always be interviewing. Most employment is at-will and you can be fired for almost any reason. It's easier to find a job while you still have a job. Internal Reporting: Frequently doesn't end well for the person reporting compliance issues. Be especially sure that the violation is a real issue before continuing to report it. Retaliation Lawsuit: There is no catch-all law protecting people from retaliation. There are piecemeal statutes that cover a number of popular situations, but they also depend on your state and the specific issue that you reported. If you are covered, you are looking at several years of litigation in order to receive a maximum of what is usually 1-2 times your lost compensation while they attempt to prove that they fired you for a legitimate reason. If the company is legit, they would probably offer you severance that eliminates this possibility. Whistleblower Rewards: There are a number of federal programs that offer rewards for bringing information to the government. The two that would be most applicable to a data scientist I think are the False Claims Act (health care, etc) and the Dodd Frank Act programs (SEC & CFTC for violations of securities laws). If you take information to the government and they fine the company as a result (greatly simplified as there are lots of other terms and conditions), then they offer between 10 and 30 percent to the whistleblower. Sorry this has happened to you. [1] Feel free to track me down if you want to chat. For those considering downvoting this as solicitation, I will say up front that it's unlikely that my firm would be interested in the situation as described. [2] This is general information that you can find elsewhere on the internet. It isn't specific advice to your situation. This answer does not form an attorney-client relationship. We would only have one if you signed a written retainer agreement with my firm. Each state has its own laws/rules and I'm only licensed in one state, which is likely not yours. So you should seek legal advice from an employment attorney in your state immediately. Sorry that this is even necessary to say.
• bedhead 12y ago
  I think it depends on a few things, but perhaps two of the most important are these. Be 100% honest with yourself about the situation. Has your performance been demonstrably good? A consistent record of good reviews, raises, bonuses, promotions, etc? Importantly, is it documented?? Were there maybe some performance issues in the past that would cause a manager to try to find an excuse to fire you? Or truly, is this just a petty reaction from a loathsome supervisor? What about the senior managers above your immediate manager? Are they cut from the same cloth or are they more reasonable? Will they hear you out on this issue or just say "not my problem" and defer to your manager? If your honest-to-god performance was demonstrably good, and you think the senior managers can handle this better, I would recommend going above your manager's head. That relationship sounds irreconcilable anyway, so I don't think there is any additional damage done. Good luck.
• vonnik 12y ago
  Firms care a lot about their reputation, and good data scientists are hard to hire when you have a bad reputation. You should try to work out a deal with the firm where they support you in your job search with recommendations while keeping you employed for a couple months.
• dirtyoldmick 12y ago
  Can you go over your manager's head?
• lordnacho 12y ago
  Lots of good advice in here. My 2 cents: 1) Don't worry about the future. Unless your city is really, really small, there will be other work for data science people. 2) Don't worry about your record or questions about why you were let go. You can always plead politics. It's a big firm, and people know there's politics in there. 3) Don't focus on the boss. Your new boss doesn't want to hear that you're uncooperative. Just stick to the politics line (boss couldn't get the budget for our group, blah blah). 4) Why on earth would you be blackballed? People do not generally use their networks like this, save for the closest friends. Have you ever looked at LinkedIn? Every post is happy happy. Or anti corporate politics. 5) Definitely start looking for a new job. It won't be strange why you've suddenly got a lot of half days or sickies. 6) Get a lawyer. The angle with the boss violating policy could help you. Also lawyers are generally useful in confrontations.
• michaelochurch 12y ago
  What do I do? Do I simply begin looking for other positions? If you mean external other positions, the answer is yes. Looking for internal transfer is not going to be effective. Once on a PIP, your odds of moving are effectively zero. No one will say that transfer's impossible (legal/HR reasons) but it's basically over. It sounds like you were a good worker but broke the #1 Rule of Corporate Employment: make the boss happy. Don't worry; this is a common mistake. Do I report his increasingly erratic behavior, and waste of firm resources? I wouldn't. It's not worth your time, and it won't get you your job back. You have 30 days to live, and it takes months to beat a bad boss. Not only that, but it takes reports from about 3-5 subordinates and most people aren't willing to risk their jobs. Corporations value consistency over correctness and his being a manager means that they trust him over you. You won't win. You'll hurt him a little bit, but that shouldn't be your goal. I know someone who actually beat his boss. He had a bad boss, he got a bad performance review for something that wasn't his fault, and he managed to get five or six people to hit his boss with the same story in "360 reviews" and take him down. It took months and, while his performance reviews were amended, he was still screwed. Even though he had taken out one of the worst managers in the company, managers (like police) tend to protect their own, at least when it comes to the outside world, and no one wanted to promote him or take him on. He ended up getting laid off a year later. Do I quit before the period expires? Only if you find another job. You might get a severance if they fire you. If you quit while you don't have a job, you get nothing and the result (you're unemployed) is the same as if you'd been fired. You are going to get fired at the end of the 30 days, but getting fired isn't (except in a few overly chatty/cliquish industries) a big deal at all. I do not wish to move, and if fired I will be effectively blackballed from most firms in this city. Why? Most people, by age 40, have been fired at least once. It sucks, but it's not the Scarlet F that you might think. If you pass the siege test (6 months of savings) then it may be expensive, but you'll survive it. As for reputation issues: I think the firm will be good to you unless it's run by idiots. You have knowledge of illegal activity. You absolutely cannot leverage that in asking for a cash severance (it's extortion) but, if they don't agree to a contractually-guaranteed positive reference, it might be time to bring up the fact of the need to reach mutual agreement on a story that is beneficial to both parties. You'll probably get an arrangement in which you can represent yourself as employed during your job search. You may get a contractual written reference and an agreement by your manager not to contradict it. They would rather let you go in a way that doesn't blackball you than have you blow the whistle. Trust me. Use your colleagues as references and have your manager's reference checked by a third party, even if you have a contract. Unless his reference is glowing, don't use him. Say that your manager went on a mission to Uganda and that's why you can't use him, or that you were managerless due to bureaucratic error but colleagues X, Y and Z can speak for your ability. Or, take the risk and tell the truth: you refused to do something illegal and were fired for it. (Say as little as possible; bad-mouthing an ex-employer is generally a no-no, and it's usually seen as better for both sides to tell a mutually face-saving lie than to expose an ex-employer's bad behavior.) You should reach out to me (michael.o.church at Google's email service) if you still have questions. Getting fired is bad-- three months of joblessness is expensive, especially if they fight your unemployment claim-- but it's not catastrophic and the likelihood that any of this follows you is low. Also, it's actually pretty hard to blackball someone. I've had people try to blackball me and I ended up winning. In some cases, I've made the attempts to do so very expensive for the people involved.
• stillsut 12y ago
  I'd offer the example of the intern dataminer at the Potti lab which was found to have committed a particularly egregious form of model fitting and led to its erroneous use in actual cancer patient treatment: by splitting obs from the total study into fit and test sets to give perfect agreement with the already trained model. Here the impact on ethical issues - life or death medicine - was pretty high. The guy who quit personally sacrificed his medical-school career to draw his foot in the sand, and received empty thanks only years later from Duke [1]. In data science, ethical issues seem to be present in all the interesting applications. But the life or death impact is often much less, like Netflix movie ratings - where a public datamining competition was cancelled due to a compliance-based class action lawsuit for the potential to de-identify anonymized account data [2]. It's hard to where on this ethical spectrum your particular case lies. If it's something that effects others, quit and try to make things right. If it effects lawyers v lawyers let your boss take accountability for that decision and the freedom to make it. [1] http://www.cancerletter.com/articles/20150109_1 http://www.cancerletter.com/articles/20150109_1 [2] http://www.forbes.com/sites/firewall/2010/03/12/netflix-settles-privacy-suit-cancels-netflix-prize-two-sequel/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/firewall/2010/03/12/netflix-sett...
• freedevbootcamp 12y ago
  Break out the resume and polish it up. Use all 8 hours a day to find a job while at work. Connect to recruiters on LinkedIn and use every job search engine to get yourself out there. Resign on the 29th day. You will be penalized for 2 weeks of unemployment but it will be worth it. Good Luck.
• yegor256a 12y ago
  Check this, maybe it will help you: http://www.yegor256.com/2015/03/02/team-morale-myths-and-reality.html http://www.yegor256.com/2015/03/02/team-morale-myths-and-rea...
• dboreham 12y ago
  Little late to this party, but a couple things to add: 1a. The fact that the manager showed up with the "30 day performance review" speech means that for sure they want to fire you, and also that he has already has this signed off by HR. Therefore going to HR, at least about the specific issue of being fired, is not useful. 1b. There is some very small chance that 1a is not true and in fact the manager is a total loose canon, or is bluffing. Up to you to assess which is the case but 1a is much more likely. 2. A trick I've used myself in the many situations I've found myself in over the years is this: imagine they make a movie about what goes down. Imagine you being played by some big name actor in the movie (the movie "Margin Call" might be a good concrete example here). Now: play time forward and consider what the guy playing your character in the movie would say when he testifies in court. Here's the important part: make sure that your actions today are consistent with that guy looking good and ending the movie not in jail :) Put another way: think about how you would fare if you have to stand up in court at some later date and explain your actions. Think about the emails you send, the letters you write particularly. In your case, "looking good in the movie" might involve taking the advice other folks have given here: seek legal advice and then follow it.
• mbrubeck 12y ago
  My sympathy; this is a tough situation and you don't deserve to be in it. Some words of hope: In a surprisingly short time, you will be able to look back at this with some much-needed distance. You'll have moved on to better things, and the problems of your old firm will no longer be your problems.
• aagha 12y ago
  > I have no desire to lose my job, but I am most concerned that being fired would place future job prospects in jeopardy. Unlikely. Firing, head-count reductions, etc. are a normal part of business today. If it happens, it happens--there's no shame in it. Sometimes, being let go can be a blessing in disguise. Take steps to make sure you're safe and mentally happy. It's a job, not your life. If it's your life, you've just learned a lesson: Don't make your job your life. You will bounce back. It's what (most) people do.
• ScottBurson 12y ago
  In your position I would be looking for another job the moment I was put on 30 day review, if I hadn't already started. It's easy to find another job when you have one. While, given your specialty, I wouldn't expect you to have a lot of trouble even after getting fired, it's still not going to be quite as easy as it will be while you're still in this job. Start tomorrow!
• DevKoala 12y ago
  Start looking for a new job now.
• 6t6t6 12y ago
  Please, fight back. Companies are f* up because good people just run away when there are problems, while this kind of managers get promoted. Keep a record of everything, bring a recorder with you, if they claim you did something wrong and you thing it's not true, say that what they say is not true. If they say they are not happy with your job, ask what you have to do to improve. Contact a Lawyer. And ask the Union. They probably know quite well what are your options. With the history you explained, you should be able to beat them in court, but you need to be able to prove it. If one day things get ugly, you'd better have a lot of ammunition to fight back. And remember, it's your job. They don't have the right to fire you to cover their mistakes. If in your country it is not legal to keep a hidden recorder, at least you can put it on the table if one day they call you to communicate that you are fired.
• hobarrera 12y ago
  > I have no desire to lose my job, but I am most concerned that being fired would place future job prospects in jeopardy. We all fear that, but usually, being fired is never an issue with getting a new job. > According to my colleagues, I'm very competent at my position, but this supervisor has been angry with me since I pointed out to him a few months ago that he may have violated firm policy in a severe way. If he did severely violate firm policy, point it out to whomsoever is on top of her. They should be grateful for the violation report, and that should help keep your job.
• anonbanker 12y ago
  You have been constructively dismissed[1]. You need to be talking to a lawyer immediately to begin your wrongful dismissal lawsuit. Don't wait until you're fired. start finding a lawyer now. if the lawyer you talk to doesn't want to do it, or drags his feet, find a lawyer who will. You have a straightforward case, and your odds for settlement will be rather high. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal
• alexryan 12y ago
  Whatever you do, do not allow yourself to feel like a helpless victim. That's what losers do. You are not a loser. But if you allow yourself to think like a loser you are finished. Not just in this job, but in life. Decide what you really want first. Do you really genuinely want to stay? Sounds like the place is a little corrupt. I wouldn't want to stay there. But if you do, then own that choice and don't let anyone else tell you to run away. There are an infinite number of ways in which you can manifest the future that you desire. In workplaces that have been infested by people who care more about getting for themselves than giving something amazing to the world, you're going to have to play the political game. I avoid those kinds of workplaces because I find doing so repulsive, but if you really want to stay, that's what you're going to have to do. That means forming alliances and destroying your enemies. This guy who has taken action against you is doing so because he feels threatened by you. You could try to repair your relationship with him. Or you could take action to destroy him. Decide which you want to do. It sounds like you are in the right. Know that a man who has right on his side, and who is absolutely confident and determined to do what is right no matter the cost is absolutely terrifying to the typically cowardly types who climb the corporate hierarchies at most companies. Most will bend under the slightest threat you intend to stand up for yourself and take action against them. You wield a lot more power than you think you do. Just believe in yourself and do what is right because it is right and people will rally to support you.
• geoelectric 12y ago
  Look for the job now. While you're still employed, you have an airtight excuse for not providing a manager reference from your current job ("They don't know I'm looking."). That lets you provide either your last manager, or a sympathetic coworker instead. Wait until you're gone and it gets much sketchier. People will assume the worst if you don't provide your previous manager.
• tberghane 12y ago
  If you're about to be fired, I advocated saying NEXT and moving on to something better. We work with about 25 tech startups here in NYC, and currently have a handful of Data Sci Roles that could be more than happy to chat. Feel free to shoot me a note: taylor@singlesprout.com. Happy to help!
• mvkel 12y ago
  What makes you think you'll be blackballed from most firms in the city? So you don't get to use them as a reference. Who cares? The company isn't allowed to disclose why they fired you. You can just say "it wasn't a good fit for me" in your next interview. If they do pry and you acknowledge you were let go, explain the reasoning (and remain objective without placing blame), and they might see your side, too, or understand that you'll be a good employee. I think you're way over-thinking this. Being terminated from a job doesn't ruin your prospects for any future position.