17 ms·

The Human Toll of Flashbangs

440 points by markmassie 12y ago

jburwell 12y ago
The use of flash bangs by law enforcement is horrifying. These tools were design for to support direct action missions by special operations forces, and are, essentially, burning thermite [1] (e.g. able to melt through an engine block). To be clear, a direct operation mission is the use of lethal force to kill or capture one or more individuals or perform high risk hostage rescue. In these types of military operations, the operators run a extreme risk of severe injury or death and the death of the targets is both acceptable and highly likely. The balance of the risks and the battlefield circumstances make their use acceptable. However, law enforcement is rarely permitted to operate under these types of conditions. Their goal should almost always be capture working under the Fourth Amendment presumption of innocence. As such, flash bangs are simply not congruent with law enforcement operations. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite Edit: grammer and thermite link
- mikeryan 12y ago
  There's a recent case in Albuquerque where 2 police officers are being charged with murder. In the case the police disorient a guy with a flashbang then shoot him as he turns away The police video shows Boyd talking with an officer who was seemingly trying to reach an end to the stalemate. As he picks up his backpack, Boyd tells the officer to keep his word, and not to worry about safety. "I'm not a [f———] murderer," Boyd says. Seconds later, a flash-bang grenade is fired at his feet. Boyd then stands facing the officers — and as he turns away from them, at least two officers open fire. Boyd was struck by live rounds, stun guns and bean-bag rounds — some of which were fired as Boyd lay on the ground saying he was unable to move. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/12/376767254/albuquerque-police-officers-face-murder-charges-over-2014-shooting http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/12/376767254/alb...
  - girvo 12y ago
    Jesus... that's completely indefensible. Now, I don't live in the US, and I only see the bad stuff that happens through the media, but I truly can't see why the police need to do things this way...
    - zanny 12y ago
      They don't have to. There are plenty of good cops, but your mileage will vary with the integrity of the local PD. There are these hot beds of systemically bad police precincts and the power structure is organized such that those who could fix it are also those initiating it. A large contributing factor is the military industrial complex spewing out death tech at an absurd rate, and with nobody to blow up with it all it just goes to police forces at auction. So you end up with towns of a thousand having swat teams and tanks and you wonder why the culture shifts from protecting and serving to war, death, and extortion.
      - fixedd 12y ago
        There's 2.5k people in my town and it's news here (literally) when someone is arrested shopping at the local Wal-Mart. The police have two miltary-issue Humvees, for some reason.
        base2 12y ago
        That stuff has always irked me, trying to look threatening/intimidating. However when most people complain about military gear finding its way to police I have to laugh a little bit. When automatic grenade launchers and .50 cal machine guns start appearing then there are problems(too late at that point I guess). MWRAPS and armored personnel carriers, those are okay. Dressing in all black(A horrible tactical color BTW) or camo now your just doing that to look upsetting. The armored tanks are not so bad as it provides something that police can feel safer and less threaten in so escalation doesn't need to happen so fast.
        EliRivers 12y ago
        The armored tanks are not so bad as it provides something that police can feel safer and less threaten in so escalation doesn't need to happen so fast. If you turn up in an armoured tank, you have just escalated the situation.
  - IkmoIkmo 12y ago
    For anyone interested in the video: Warning it's graphical, naturally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpAZObNZfI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpAZObNZfI To summarize, indeed he says 'Im not a murderer' while picking up his bag, just standing around. They fire the grenade, tell him to get down blabla. He never steps forward in any way, charges them or attacks, while the officers close in and put a dog on him. Seconds later he turns away and gets shot multiple times. From this point on he's not moving at all and just laying there. They shoot him a couple times with bean bags and put the dog on him again. I don't hear him saying he's unable to move. It just looks like he's unconscious or dead at that point. He's just laying there still while they're deliberating whether to put the dog on him (and do).
    - Rainymood 12y ago
      And this is the problem with guns, imagine if the police didn't have any guns and they would have to approach him by first. Obviously they outnumber him but know (unless he has a lethal weapon on him) there shouldn't be any lethal force. Guns escalate the situation way too quickly to a life threatening one ...
      - k-mcgrady 12y ago
        That's how it works in the UK I think. Police don't regularly carry firearms and specially trained firearms officers are called in when necessary. I think the problem with this approach in the US is that guns are way more available and way more likely to used in a crime (I don't actually have figures on this but it seems a reasonable assumption). Edit: Replaced incorrect use of 'weapons' with 'firearms'.
        robin_reala 12y ago
        Police carry weapons (truncheons, pepper spray, sometimes tasers), just not firearms by default.
        k-mcgrady 12y ago
- username223 12y ago
  For a more hilarious use of military tech by police, see this video by Doraville, GA police of their "track-y fun-box" (a.k.a. "tank," sorry for the ear-splitting levels): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kajhu7qgojU You have to wonder what threats they face among their population of 8,000 citizens in north-central Georgia.
  - xeromal 12y ago
    I grew up in Ellijay, GA and many police offers were bullies in my highschool. The city doesn't really have the cream of the crop or the pay to choose otherwise.
    - username223 12y ago
      When your job ads say "not much pay, but you get to carry a big gun and scare people with it," this is what you get. I wish cops and primary/secondary teachers were paid enough that the people reading this post would consider those jobs, because they kind of matter.
      - click170 12y ago
        Seems like a chicken and egg problem. They barely deserve the salary they get now with all the incidents going on, but they won't get more intelligent people applying until the wages are increased. Probably best to start with the teachers so theres a larger pool if educated people to hire from.
        username223 12y ago
        According to BLS, coders make something like $93k/yr [1], while policemen make about $57k [2], and primary school teachers make $53k [3]. How much of a pay cut would you take to accept one of those jobs? How much more in taxes would you pay to hire/train better people to do those jobs? [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/S... [2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detectives.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detecti... [3] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kinder...
- hga 12y ago
  "In these types of military operations, the operators run a extreme risk of severe injury or death and the death of the targets is both acceptable and highly likely." I'd submit to you that both of these are arguably true, once the all too routine decision to take "direct action" has been made: America is a legally well armed society, and these home invasions are indistinguishable from ones done by Official Criminals, especially since the latter are known to pretend to be police. That "the death of the targets is" entirely "acceptable" should be evident to any unbiased observer of these direct actions. Especially since the Badge Gang, as some are taking to call them, are almost never held to account; if ever there was a case to do that, the one of Bou Bou's maiming should have been.
- refurb 12y ago
  and are, essentially, burning thermite What makes you think flashbangs contain thermite? From what I can tell they contain a small amount of explosives[1]. The filler consists of a pyrotechnic metal-oxidant mix of magnesium or aluminium, and an oxidizer such as ammonium perchlorate or potassium perchlorate. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade
  - EthanHeilman 12y ago
    If I remember my chemistry correctly, thermite = aluminium + an oxidizer. So the filler you are describing is thermite. Edit: I worry I may be incorrect. Thermite seems like a very odd thing to put in a flash bang. Perhaps it is only a thermite mixture but the reaction is different?
    - refurb 12y ago
      No biggie. Thermite is a mixture of a metal and a metal oxide, typically aluminum and iron oxide (which is an oxidizer). Thermite specifically converts the iron oxide to iron metal (very exothermic). That's why they use it to repair rail lines, etc. If you replace the iron oxide with another oxidizer, it's not really thermite (since no iron metal is produced) and it turns it from a very exothermic reaction into an explosion (with the right oxidizer). They do make thermite grenades, but they are typically used to destroy equipment, not make a loud sound (as flashbangs are). If the police were using thermite grenades for raids, that would be even more horrifying than it already is.
      - base2 12y ago
        I'm glad someone in this thread knows about thermite. Thermite also burns pretty slow(comparably) and having to roll into an area that has thermite burning everywhere is just plain....silly? I'm just going to throw this bucket of gasoline and a lit zippo into this room before I enter it!
  - datasink 12y ago
    A mixture of potassium chlorate and aluminum powder is the original composition for M-80 firecrackers. Potassium perchlorate is a modern day swap-in. I imagine the flash bang composition is tweaked to increase the flash.
- mc32 12y ago
  You pretty bang on. I think the unfortunate thing is that it has become an arms race. The police up their arms in response to civilians-gone-bad having heavier weapons. If I were in the police, I can imagine I'd feel safer riding in a tank to take down a suspected 'dangerous' criminal too. I think in some ways, this is a result of our fondness for the second amendment rights and arms as well as accepting the police as a necessary force to keep the peace. I'm not sure if there is an easy way to de-escalate things. We might start with police 'engagement' procedures standardized from a federal level --but there'd probably be pushback from the states. I do have a quibble with _always_ presuming innocence. If you see someone in the act, then I think they can take action without such presumption. One of the specially hard things for me to understand is the necessity to shoot at 'disturbed' people wielding knives. Yes, I know knives are deadly --however, knives don't travel very far, compared to firearms, why not back up, give them a safe distance and try to de-escalate before shooting at the 'lunge.' Again, I know most of those disturbed people do mean harm[1], but you can avoid their intended harm by giving them space. [1] Some intending assisted but unintended suicide from the police.
  - base2 12y ago
    I think you would be interested in how fast someone can move in with a knife. Anyways, you give them space and they bolt away and stab or take hostage the next person they encounter. There are so many what ifs in these situations then end badly that you don't even want to let it get to that point. If "lunging" was the only thing knife welding psychos could do the world would be much nicer place.
    - mc32 12y ago
      In some situations that is a concern (hostages, bystanders) but my understanding is SOP means getting bystanders out of the way ASAP and dealing with the disturbed person. It's not like the police are six feet from them, they typically have a good cushion of space (and should take more) and take every chance to deescalate --throw fishing net at them, whatever, but use lethal force as last resort, not at the first lunge.
    - pjc50 12y ago
- base2 12y ago
  Military grade stun grenades don't use thermite. Military stun grenades can barely burn anything(I have tried many many times but that's another story). hearing about people getting getting third degree burns has me wonder what are they building these things with for law enforcement usage.
  - deleted 12y ago
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- hessenwolf 12y ago
  Does anybody else know about Thermite from the Jolly Roger's cookbook? I think that file, on a 486 laptop owned by my friend's mid-life-crisis separated father, was my life's best illicit thrill.
stealthlogic 12y ago
"the police found about a tenth of an ounce of marijuana" Wow, I'm so glad they're protecting us from these dangerous drug lords.
ColinCochrane 12y ago
Bou Bou was sleeping in a portable playpen at the foot of his parents’ bed when the Habersham County Special Response Team broke down the door to the room and threw a flashbang. The grenade landed on a pillow next to Bou Bou’s face. The blast blew a hole in his chest, severed his nose, and tore apart his lips and mouth. That's horrifying. I can't believe that these things are allowed to be used with so little oversight. In October, a Habersham County grand jury declined to indict the officers involved. “Some of what contributed to this tragedy can be attributed to well-intentioned people getting in too big a hurry,” the grand jury wrote in its findings. What they call "too big a hurry" I call reckless endangerment.
- jMyles 12y ago
  ...and what they call "well-intentioned" I call "doing a job despite its moral indefensibility." (and to be clear: I'm talking specifically about pre-dawn violent raids as a measure to ostensibly enforce drug laws, not policing in general)
  - kevin_thibedeau 12y ago
    What's most amazing is how smug and unapologetic the involved LEOs are when they've been interviewed on camera about this incident. One can only hope that the video is accepted as evidence in the civil case and will add a significant multiplier to the damages awarded.
    - kyrra 12y ago
      I'm guessing their lawyers have told them not to apologize (show apathy), as it may actually be worse for them in the civil suit.
      - RyJones 12y ago
        Cops in the US are immune to civil liability for acts while on duty.
k-mcgrady 12y ago
OT: This is the third of fourth site in recent days that I've been on and thought I was on Medium. The designs all look identical. Medium's design is really nice so I'm not about to complain but it is a bit strange.
- portlander52232 12y ago
  Propublica is actually even nicer than Medium, if you ask me. The similarity you're noticing is partly fashion, but largely just that the technology and market conditions finally exist to use magazine-style type on web pages.
deleted 12y ago
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darklajid 12y ago
I'm not sure if this belongs on this site. This is .. utterly political. Reading that article leads me astray and I have to question the sanity of the persons involved, both on the acting side (police) and the justification side (spokesman, random "Yeah, criminals are dangerous and all" crap). This is the prime example of a cultural clash, of an article that is relevant for the US of A only (I hope there's a debate over there and people that think this usage is okay are somehow considered sane, locally). For a foreigner like me this is tragic. Every single example in that article was bullshit. Inexcusable and mind-blowingly stupid. I'm aware of the fact that I might be deluded and that the 'real world' - over there - looks different. But seriously, what do we have in common if this is acceptable and 'best practice'?
- jMyles 12y ago
  I don't mean to question your basis for your assessment because your comment is otherwise wonderful and agreeable, but why it is that every time an article is written that impugns a government's use of a particular technology, it is regarded as "utterly political?" Even if this article weren't about flashbangs, whose particulars are examined in the article from a perspective consistent with the norms of this website, the drug war, as a exercise of prohibition policy, is largely on-topic here per se because it represents a pain-point (and according to a majority of people, at least in the USA, a failure) which many entrepreneurs and statesmen are actively seeking to fix via innovation. This article seems utterly on-topic to me.
  - darklajid 12y ago
    I think my main concern was and is: Given this article, the discussion cannot avoid politics. If we're assuming that political discussions might be sensitive and largely depending on your upbringing/local environment etc. etc. this leads to potential conflicts. Technical (or commercial) posts are usually easier to digest and discuss. Posts like this seem to offer no sane way to handle them, or at least I don't see a way to do that myself.
    - zanny 12y ago
lifeisstillgood 12y ago
Is there anyway to push for or endorse research into police weapons use in USA? I seem to remember a discussion some time back pointing out there was no central registry or even need to report gun use for all police forces. It just seems that blowing the face off a sleeping baby ought to be the point you start filling in forms and asking questions like "is the person throwing a grenade well trained? Has the information they are acting upon come from as reliable source? Is there post action public reviews? It seems that some parts of the USA lead the world and some parts still have hay stalks in their mouths.
6t6t6 12y ago
I don't live in the US, so I am maybe missing something but, if the police wants to arrest someone, wouldn't be easier to wait until this person leaves the house, grab him on the street and tell him: "Hi mate, we are the police and now you are under arrest". I don't see the need of assaulting a home.
- iamdave 12y ago
  The problem with that is that it makes entirely too much goddamn sense. </cynicism> Also something about cops being in such constant terror and fear for their lives that criminals are constantly carrying around AR-15 gas powered rifles, that it's easier to catch them by surprise at home than to risk doing your job more humanely and end up with a 5.56 round in the chest. Or something like that. </Snark>
- MarkPNeyer 12y ago
  > I don't see the need of assaulting a home. it's almost always for drugs, where they'd be afraid the person could flush them down the toilet.
  - deleted 12y ago
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  - TillE 12y ago
    As the GP said, that's why you simply wait until they leave the house. In nearly all these cases, they're only looking for one person.
  - the_af 12y ago
    If you arrest people outside their house when they go for a walk, how on earth are they going to "flush the drugs down the toilet"?
    - EC1 12y ago
      What, you don't carry a portable toilet around?
beloch 12y ago
There seems to be some room for innovation here. The police are throwing these things blind. Evidence? Well, I refuse to believe anyone, no matter how debased, would intentionally throw a flashbang into a baby's crib. What's needed is a flashbang that either won't go off if in close proximity to a living being (e.g. perhaps add an IR sensor) or a flashbang that is triggered remotely, so it can be thrown, spotted, and triggered only if in a desirable location. Personally, I think building a flashbang that's harder to injure people with will simply result in increasingly idiotic behavior on the part of the police. The real solution is to use flashbangs less and with better training. That means regulations and oversight because the police apparently suck at policing themselves. However, the U.S. loves to solve problems with tech even when it's not the best solution, so there's money to be made here.
- Zigurd 12y ago
  It shouldn't be necessary to do paramilitary raids of homes unless there is some desperate situation like hostages being killed.
- rdtsc 12y ago
  > Well, I refuse to believe anyone, no matter how debased, would intentionally throw a flashbang into a baby's crib I can. In the extended circle of acquintances, two of the cops are the worst abusers of their families, children & wives, the are the most racists and full of hatred. One would enjoy showing others how he would spin his son by his hand while simultaneously kicking him in the back with his foot (granted this is not a US policeman, not that a US policemen are somehow qualitatively more noble). I think there is link between saddism (enjoyment of inflicticting pain) and choosing to be that kind of a profession (just like there might be a link between wanting to help people and choosing to do it).
  - anigbrowl 12y ago
    Sadly, statistics back you up in this case. US police appear to have a much higher propensity to engage in domestic violence than the general population: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-o...
girvo 12y ago
> “If she hadn’t been selling illegal items out of the home, no warrant would have been served,” he said. “What you call extreme, we call safe.” Disgusting. The militarisation of police is a blight on our societies progress. And now where I live is succumbing to it too, albeit far more slowly than what those in the US have to deal with. The fact that SWAT teams are using flash bangs and automatic weaponry to raid a woman's house for selling beer without a license blows my mind. > Department officers testified that their general SWAT training included work with flashbangs even though it wasn’t formally recorded in department training logs. In other words, they're lying to cover their asses again. Like police have never done that before. Disgusting.
- aswanson 12y ago
  And yet, American citizenry at large and the justice system in general gives the police the benefit of the doubt in all matters versus the populace. Are we really that dumb as a country? If you have to ask...
  - sukilot 12y ago
    As horrible as police brutality it, it still directly hurts less than ~20% of society (more in some really bad areas, less in others). So only those, plus the few percent of others who have a sense of compassion, are opposed to the brutality. The rest are either ignorant or complicit or in cognitir dissonance.
    - snsr 12y ago
      > As horrible as police brutality it, it still directly hurts less than ~20% of society. So only those, plus the few percent of others who have a sense of compassion, are opposed to the brutality. Your unsupported position is disgusting. It hurts all of us when some are beyond reproach for brutalizing and murdering the most vulnerable in our society.
      - girvo 12y ago
        It's a shame the parent is being downvoted, as I read it they're not condoning that reaction, merely commenting on it. And they're right: that's exactly how the masses react to things like this. I wish more people reacted like you did, and I want to help build a world where that's the case.
vaadu 12y ago
There will NEVER be accountability as long as the conflict of interest remains where police actions are investigated by a prosecutor that relies on these same police for him to do a successful job.
- hockley 12y ago
  This fact was so evident last year. I don't understand why cop cases don't have special prosecutors or fall under federal jurisdiction.
  - philwelch 12y ago
    Because the cops have all the guns and a good union.
  - kansface 12y ago
    Cops testify in federal courts, too. There is no incentive for prosecutors to indict cops.
corndoge 12y ago
“Everyone carries a flashbang,” Malette testified. “Any time we encounter locked doors, we have an unknown, we have to gain back that initiative.” I understand that police are interested in maintaining control of a situation, but practices like throwing flashbang grenades into houses without looking...these guys seem to think they're Delta Force.
- IkmoIkmo 12y ago
  It's insane. He literally said 'there's something behind this door, we don't know whether it's a guy with a rocket launcher or an innocent baby, so let's throw a grenade in there and 'gain the initiative' whichever case it may be'. I never quite understood raids in the first place. Between scoping out a house, arresting any individuals outside as they walk on the curb while entering an empty home with a warrant, and raiding a house delta-force style with guns, an unknown number of people in the house with no knowledge of what you'll find. I'm sure house raids have their place, but to me that place feels rather limited. Raiding someone's house because of something like pot, or selling nachos, with grenades and all?
- rhino369 12y ago
  Part of the problem is they are asked to be Delta Force. I wouldn't storm a house without a sub machine and a flashbang either. But I also wouldn't storm houses in the first place. Raids aren't needed except in very exceptional cases like a hostage situation or a spree killer. It's time for police to need a court's permission to specifically raid without a clear and present danger.
- rhino369 12y ago
  Part of the problem is they are asked to be Delta Force. I wouldn't storm a house without a sub machine and a flashbang either. But I also wouldn't storm houses in the first place. Raids aren't needed except in very exceptional cases like a hostage situation or a spree killer. It's time for police to need a court's permission to specifically raid without a clear and present danger.
yellowapple 12y ago
There seems to be a some demand for safer flashbangs (perhaps something with really bright LEDs and really loud speakers). This[0] seems to at least address the brightness aspect of it. I mean, if the point of flashbang use by LEOs is supposedly to disorient/confuse/distract a suspect during arrest, this seems to be better-suited to that role. And better yet, if they're electronic, they should be (at least hypothetically) entirely reusable, saving a LEA a lot of money in the long run. [0]: http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2012/03/13/delta-light-ball-flashbang-alternative/ http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2012/03/13/delta-light-ball-flas...
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  Home invasion will never be safe, regardless of the tools they use. If law enforcement's answer to tragedies like this is, "We'll train our people in use of less dangerous tools", then the wrong questions are being asked. The question should be, "What the hell were you doing breaking into someone's home in the middle of the night?"
comrh 12y ago
ProPublica is quietly doing the best journalism of the past few years.
SwellJoe 12y ago
I'm so past fed up with police in America. The drug war is pathological. The notion that a cop can kill an unarmed suspect with impunity (especially if they're black or homeless or mentally ill) is disgusting. The belief that "law and order" is a value worth allowing one group the exclusive privilege of breaking any law and causing any disorder they like without consequence simply has to end. I'm at the point where I think the only sane thing is to dismantle the police, as we know it, and rebuild something less violent, less systemically racist, less prone to imprison or kill the mentally ill, and more aligned with basic human decency. Talking about how dangerous flashbangs are misses the point of how dangerous the system that wields them is and how dangerous the people employed by that system are. Police have dozens of tools and techniques for destroying human life. As long as they are empowered (and even expected) to use them with impunity, there will be tragedy after tragedy, where children, the mentally ill, and innocent people, are injured or killed or imprisoned. Not that talking about flashbangs is a bad idea. I just think we're past the point where fixing flashbangs will significantly fix things. This is a systemic problem which can only be resolved by systemic solutions.
- Normati 12y ago
  America isn't the problem, Americans are. Everyone who voted for this is to blame. From what I understand you can even vote for some of the local judges or prosecutors too! There's no excuse but to recognize that your neighbors are responsible for the problems due to their own selfishness. They want the police to be brutal because the drug raid isn't going to be on their home, it'll be on some poor person's home and they don't care about poor people. This might sound harsh, but it's what most American voters do. That's why they continually vote for police violence. If they don't understand the consequences of their vote then they're as negligent as the policeman who doesn't understand the consequences of throwing a flashbang into a bedroom.
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    You're partially right, though overly optimistic about the power of "democracy" in America. It's worth recognizing the power of gerrymandering and money in elections. But, that's another discussion. There is no such thing as a viable political candidate who discusses reigning in police power...not because of the voting public. In America we choose between two parties who have differences, but there are entire categories of governance on which they are in lock step. Police is one of those categories. You will never hear a Republican or a Democrat suggest abolition of the institution of police as we know it, or even demanding basic accountability for killer cops. Short of revolution, the only effective tools citizens have is to educate more people about the problems (and the cost of "tough on crime" policies), protest the clear human rights violations, film police so there are fewer invisible victims, demand accountability from city councils and mayors and police chiefs, etc. And, I do a little bit of all of these things (there's a Black Lives Matter march on Saturday here in Austin; I'll be there). So, yes, many Americans are stupid, violent, poorly-educated, racist, and vindictive, or at least support law enforcement that is all of those things. But, the number of people who support no-knock raids is surely not high enough to claim the people chose this (I don't know, but I can't imagine it would be).
Aeolun 12y ago
I don't think the problem is so much that flashbangs are being thrown, as that they are thrown when storming the house of someone committing the grave crime of illegally selling nachos.
- fintler 12y ago
  Not only a raid with flashbangs. They also tried to take an old lady's house for selling Nachos. "Afterward, the city of Little Rock sued Harris, alleging that her property should be declared a nuisance and “abated” — or razed — since it was being used to facilitate criminal violations."
cryoshon 12y ago
Use weapons against civilians and you get predictable consequences. Not sure why this is permitted in the USA, starting to think that most Americans are really a bit braindead.
- deleted 12y ago
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ted5555 12y ago
First, the Albequerque incident was cold blooded murder and the indictment is very appropriate. Second, flash bang use is already dramatically declining so this sory is about three years to late. But nice effort.
ted5555 12y ago
First, the Albequerque incident was cold blooded murder and the indictment is very appropriate. Second, flash bang use is already dramatically declining so this sory is about three years to late. But nice effort.
noonespecial 12y ago
That the officers involved in these incidents are never indicted is kind of a red herring. They follow procedure and feel like they've done nothing wrong. The real issue is that we allow a procedure in which occasionally we throw grenades at babies.
fapjacks 12y ago
As an infantry combat veteran of multiple tours, the idea that police forces are using flashbangs is disgusting.
lordnacho 12y ago
I wonder how many people were like me, in that they thought the Counterstrike version of a flashbang was representative of the real thing? I never really considered how they worked until now.
andrewstuart 12y ago
Outcome of arms vendors needing new markets.
briandear 12y ago
flashbangs are warranted when there is a high threat profile. The problem is that a 'raid' doesn't rise to the level of 'high threat profile.' The problem isn't the police tactics, it's a problem of bad risk management. Police have been considering all manner of crimes 'raid worthy.' If SWAT was going after known dangerous and armed gang members or they were in a hostage situation, flashbangs might be the right tactic; it would depend on the threat profile and pre-raid intelligence. SpecOps operators rarely just blast into a room. Oftentimes there are eyes on the target, including surveillance to determine the threat profile. Cops could have very easily just staked out the house and grabbed the guy when he walked outside. But that isn't as 'sexy' and suiting up in full battle rattle and rappelling from the roof tossing flashbangs, and kicking in doors. While the drug war is a big prt of this, the larger problem is the lack of meaningful and audited protocols for various situations. Going after a guy with weed should require a much different approach than taking down a meth lab. Though, a flashbang in a meth lab would be a sight to see.
ck2 12y ago
I don't even know what to say after reading that article. How can this be even remotely acceptable to anyone? I mean they are using them in cases where they know for a fact it is not a dangerous situation - an elderly woman selling beer? They used it TWICE? Really?
halfcat 12y ago
>At least 50 Americans have been seriously injured, maimed or killed by flashbangs since 2000 I was surprised to see this statistic included. It really makes this issue seem less significant and does not help the argument being made. This means a little over 3 people per year injured or worse. Probably less than 1 death per year. By comparison, vending machines alone kill over a dozen people each year. Was this supposed to say, "we located over 50 people", and not intended to be put forward as a statistic?

440 points by markmassie 12y ago

The use of flash bangs by law enforcement is horrifying. These tools were design for to support direct action missions by special operations forces, and are, essentially, burning thermite [1] (e.g. able to melt through an engine block). To be clear, a direct operation mission is the use of lethal force to kill or capture one or more individuals or perform high risk hostage rescue. In these types of military operations, the operators run a extreme risk of severe injury or death and the death of the targets is both acceptable and highly likely. The balance of the risks and the battlefield circumstances make their use acceptable. However, law enforcement is rarely permitted to operate under these types of conditions. Their goal should almost always be capture working under the Fourth Amendment presumption of innocence. As such, flash bangs are simply not congruent with law enforcement operations. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite Edit: grammer and thermite link

mikeryan 12y ago
There's a recent case in Albuquerque where 2 police officers are being charged with murder. In the case the police disorient a guy with a flashbang then shoot him as he turns away The police video shows Boyd talking with an officer who was seemingly trying to reach an end to the stalemate. As he picks up his backpack, Boyd tells the officer to keep his word, and not to worry about safety. "I'm not a [f———] murderer," Boyd says. Seconds later, a flash-bang grenade is fired at his feet. Boyd then stands facing the officers — and as he turns away from them, at least two officers open fire. Boyd was struck by live rounds, stun guns and bean-bag rounds — some of which were fired as Boyd lay on the ground saying he was unable to move. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/12/376767254/albuquerque-police-officers-face-murder-charges-over-2014-shooting http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/12/376767254/alb...
- girvo 12y ago
  Jesus... that's completely indefensible. Now, I don't live in the US, and I only see the bad stuff that happens through the media, but I truly can't see why the police need to do things this way...
  - zanny 12y ago
    They don't have to. There are plenty of good cops, but your mileage will vary with the integrity of the local PD. There are these hot beds of systemically bad police precincts and the power structure is organized such that those who could fix it are also those initiating it. A large contributing factor is the military industrial complex spewing out death tech at an absurd rate, and with nobody to blow up with it all it just goes to police forces at auction. So you end up with towns of a thousand having swat teams and tanks and you wonder why the culture shifts from protecting and serving to war, death, and extortion.
    - fixedd 12y ago
      There's 2.5k people in my town and it's news here (literally) when someone is arrested shopping at the local Wal-Mart. The police have two miltary-issue Humvees, for some reason.
      - base2 12y ago
        That stuff has always irked me, trying to look threatening/intimidating. However when most people complain about military gear finding its way to police I have to laugh a little bit. When automatic grenade launchers and .50 cal machine guns start appearing then there are problems(too late at that point I guess). MWRAPS and armored personnel carriers, those are okay. Dressing in all black(A horrible tactical color BTW) or camo now your just doing that to look upsetting. The armored tanks are not so bad as it provides something that police can feel safer and less threaten in so escalation doesn't need to happen so fast.
        EliRivers 12y ago
        The armored tanks are not so bad as it provides something that police can feel safer and less threaten in so escalation doesn't need to happen so fast. If you turn up in an armoured tank, you have just escalated the situation.
- IkmoIkmo 12y ago
  For anyone interested in the video: Warning it's graphical, naturally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpAZObNZfI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpAZObNZfI To summarize, indeed he says 'Im not a murderer' while picking up his bag, just standing around. They fire the grenade, tell him to get down blabla. He never steps forward in any way, charges them or attacks, while the officers close in and put a dog on him. Seconds later he turns away and gets shot multiple times. From this point on he's not moving at all and just laying there. They shoot him a couple times with bean bags and put the dog on him again. I don't hear him saying he's unable to move. It just looks like he's unconscious or dead at that point. He's just laying there still while they're deliberating whether to put the dog on him (and do).
  - Rainymood 12y ago
    And this is the problem with guns, imagine if the police didn't have any guns and they would have to approach him by first. Obviously they outnumber him but know (unless he has a lethal weapon on him) there shouldn't be any lethal force. Guns escalate the situation way too quickly to a life threatening one ...
    - k-mcgrady 12y ago
      That's how it works in the UK I think. Police don't regularly carry firearms and specially trained firearms officers are called in when necessary. I think the problem with this approach in the US is that guns are way more available and way more likely to used in a crime (I don't actually have figures on this but it seems a reasonable assumption). Edit: Replaced incorrect use of 'weapons' with 'firearms'.
      - robin_reala 12y ago
        Police carry weapons (truncheons, pepper spray, sometimes tasers), just not firearms by default.
        k-mcgrady 12y ago
username223 12y ago
For a more hilarious use of military tech by police, see this video by Doraville, GA police of their "track-y fun-box" (a.k.a. "tank," sorry for the ear-splitting levels): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kajhu7qgojU You have to wonder what threats they face among their population of 8,000 citizens in north-central Georgia.
- xeromal 12y ago
  I grew up in Ellijay, GA and many police offers were bullies in my highschool. The city doesn't really have the cream of the crop or the pay to choose otherwise.
  - username223 12y ago
    When your job ads say "not much pay, but you get to carry a big gun and scare people with it," this is what you get. I wish cops and primary/secondary teachers were paid enough that the people reading this post would consider those jobs, because they kind of matter.
    - click170 12y ago
      Seems like a chicken and egg problem. They barely deserve the salary they get now with all the incidents going on, but they won't get more intelligent people applying until the wages are increased. Probably best to start with the teachers so theres a larger pool if educated people to hire from.
      - username223 12y ago
        According to BLS, coders make something like $93k/yr [1], while policemen make about $57k [2], and primary school teachers make $53k [3]. How much of a pay cut would you take to accept one of those jobs? How much more in taxes would you pay to hire/train better people to do those jobs? [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/S... [2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detectives.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detecti... [3] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kinder...
hga 12y ago
"In these types of military operations, the operators run a extreme risk of severe injury or death and the death of the targets is both acceptable and highly likely." I'd submit to you that both of these are arguably true, once the all too routine decision to take "direct action" has been made: America is a legally well armed society, and these home invasions are indistinguishable from ones done by Official Criminals, especially since the latter are known to pretend to be police. That "the death of the targets is" entirely "acceptable" should be evident to any unbiased observer of these direct actions. Especially since the Badge Gang, as some are taking to call them, are almost never held to account; if ever there was a case to do that, the one of Bou Bou's maiming should have been.
refurb 12y ago
and are, essentially, burning thermite What makes you think flashbangs contain thermite? From what I can tell they contain a small amount of explosives[1]. The filler consists of a pyrotechnic metal-oxidant mix of magnesium or aluminium, and an oxidizer such as ammonium perchlorate or potassium perchlorate. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade
- EthanHeilman 12y ago
  If I remember my chemistry correctly, thermite = aluminium + an oxidizer. So the filler you are describing is thermite. Edit: I worry I may be incorrect. Thermite seems like a very odd thing to put in a flash bang. Perhaps it is only a thermite mixture but the reaction is different?
  - refurb 12y ago
    No biggie. Thermite is a mixture of a metal and a metal oxide, typically aluminum and iron oxide (which is an oxidizer). Thermite specifically converts the iron oxide to iron metal (very exothermic). That's why they use it to repair rail lines, etc. If you replace the iron oxide with another oxidizer, it's not really thermite (since no iron metal is produced) and it turns it from a very exothermic reaction into an explosion (with the right oxidizer). They do make thermite grenades, but they are typically used to destroy equipment, not make a loud sound (as flashbangs are). If the police were using thermite grenades for raids, that would be even more horrifying than it already is.
    - base2 12y ago
      I'm glad someone in this thread knows about thermite. Thermite also burns pretty slow(comparably) and having to roll into an area that has thermite burning everywhere is just plain....silly? I'm just going to throw this bucket of gasoline and a lit zippo into this room before I enter it!
- datasink 12y ago
  A mixture of potassium chlorate and aluminum powder is the original composition for M-80 firecrackers. Potassium perchlorate is a modern day swap-in. I imagine the flash bang composition is tweaked to increase the flash.
mc32 12y ago
You pretty bang on. I think the unfortunate thing is that it has become an arms race. The police up their arms in response to civilians-gone-bad having heavier weapons. If I were in the police, I can imagine I'd feel safer riding in a tank to take down a suspected 'dangerous' criminal too. I think in some ways, this is a result of our fondness for the second amendment rights and arms as well as accepting the police as a necessary force to keep the peace. I'm not sure if there is an easy way to de-escalate things. We might start with police 'engagement' procedures standardized from a federal level --but there'd probably be pushback from the states. I do have a quibble with _always_ presuming innocence. If you see someone in the act, then I think they can take action without such presumption. One of the specially hard things for me to understand is the necessity to shoot at 'disturbed' people wielding knives. Yes, I know knives are deadly --however, knives don't travel very far, compared to firearms, why not back up, give them a safe distance and try to de-escalate before shooting at the 'lunge.' Again, I know most of those disturbed people do mean harm[1], but you can avoid their intended harm by giving them space. [1] Some intending assisted but unintended suicide from the police.
- base2 12y ago
  I think you would be interested in how fast someone can move in with a knife. Anyways, you give them space and they bolt away and stab or take hostage the next person they encounter. There are so many what ifs in these situations then end badly that you don't even want to let it get to that point. If "lunging" was the only thing knife welding psychos could do the world would be much nicer place.
  - mc32 12y ago
    In some situations that is a concern (hostages, bystanders) but my understanding is SOP means getting bystanders out of the way ASAP and dealing with the disturbed person. It's not like the police are six feet from them, they typically have a good cushion of space (and should take more) and take every chance to deescalate --throw fishing net at them, whatever, but use lethal force as last resort, not at the first lunge.
  - pjc50 12y ago
base2 12y ago
Military grade stun grenades don't use thermite. Military stun grenades can barely burn anything(I have tried many many times but that's another story). hearing about people getting getting third degree burns has me wonder what are they building these things with for law enforcement usage.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
hessenwolf 12y ago
Does anybody else know about Thermite from the Jolly Roger's cookbook? I think that file, on a 486 laptop owned by my friend's mid-life-crisis separated father, was my life's best illicit thrill.

stealthlogic 12y ago

"the police found about a tenth of an ounce of marijuana" Wow, I'm so glad they're protecting us from these dangerous drug lords.

ColinCochrane 12y ago

Bou Bou was sleeping in a portable playpen at the foot of his parents’ bed when the Habersham County Special Response Team broke down the door to the room and threw a flashbang. The grenade landed on a pillow next to Bou Bou’s face. The blast blew a hole in his chest, severed his nose, and tore apart his lips and mouth. That's horrifying. I can't believe that these things are allowed to be used with so little oversight. In October, a Habersham County grand jury declined to indict the officers involved. “Some of what contributed to this tragedy can be attributed to well-intentioned people getting in too big a hurry,” the grand jury wrote in its findings. What they call "too big a hurry" I call reckless endangerment.

jMyles 12y ago
...and what they call "well-intentioned" I call "doing a job despite its moral indefensibility." (and to be clear: I'm talking specifically about pre-dawn violent raids as a measure to ostensibly enforce drug laws, not policing in general)
- kevin_thibedeau 12y ago
  What's most amazing is how smug and unapologetic the involved LEOs are when they've been interviewed on camera about this incident. One can only hope that the video is accepted as evidence in the civil case and will add a significant multiplier to the damages awarded.
  - kyrra 12y ago
    I'm guessing their lawyers have told them not to apologize (show apathy), as it may actually be worse for them in the civil suit.
    - RyJones 12y ago
      Cops in the US are immune to civil liability for acts while on duty.

k-mcgrady 12y ago

OT: This is the third of fourth site in recent days that I've been on and thought I was on Medium. The designs all look identical. Medium's design is really nice so I'm not about to complain but it is a bit strange.

portlander52232 12y ago
Propublica is actually even nicer than Medium, if you ask me. The similarity you're noticing is partly fashion, but largely just that the technology and market conditions finally exist to use magazine-style type on web pages.

deleted 12y ago

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darklajid 12y ago

I'm not sure if this belongs on this site. This is .. utterly political. Reading that article leads me astray and I have to question the sanity of the persons involved, both on the acting side (police) and the justification side (spokesman, random "Yeah, criminals are dangerous and all" crap). This is the prime example of a cultural clash, of an article that is relevant for the US of A only (I hope there's a debate over there and people that think this usage is okay are somehow considered sane, locally). For a foreigner like me this is tragic. Every single example in that article was bullshit. Inexcusable and mind-blowingly stupid. I'm aware of the fact that I might be deluded and that the 'real world' - over there - looks different. But seriously, what do we have in common if this is acceptable and 'best practice'?

jMyles 12y ago
I don't mean to question your basis for your assessment because your comment is otherwise wonderful and agreeable, but why it is that every time an article is written that impugns a government's use of a particular technology, it is regarded as "utterly political?" Even if this article weren't about flashbangs, whose particulars are examined in the article from a perspective consistent with the norms of this website, the drug war, as a exercise of prohibition policy, is largely on-topic here per se because it represents a pain-point (and according to a majority of people, at least in the USA, a failure) which many entrepreneurs and statesmen are actively seeking to fix via innovation. This article seems utterly on-topic to me.
- darklajid 12y ago
  I think my main concern was and is: Given this article, the discussion cannot avoid politics. If we're assuming that political discussions might be sensitive and largely depending on your upbringing/local environment etc. etc. this leads to potential conflicts. Technical (or commercial) posts are usually easier to digest and discuss. Posts like this seem to offer no sane way to handle them, or at least I don't see a way to do that myself.
  - zanny 12y ago

lifeisstillgood 12y ago

Is there anyway to push for or endorse research into police weapons use in USA? I seem to remember a discussion some time back pointing out there was no central registry or even need to report gun use for all police forces. It just seems that blowing the face off a sleeping baby ought to be the point you start filling in forms and asking questions like "is the person throwing a grenade well trained? Has the information they are acting upon come from as reliable source? Is there post action public reviews? It seems that some parts of the USA lead the world and some parts still have hay stalks in their mouths.

6t6t6 12y ago

I don't live in the US, so I am maybe missing something but, if the police wants to arrest someone, wouldn't be easier to wait until this person leaves the house, grab him on the street and tell him: "Hi mate, we are the police and now you are under arrest". I don't see the need of assaulting a home.

iamdave 12y ago
The problem with that is that it makes entirely too much goddamn sense. </cynicism> Also something about cops being in such constant terror and fear for their lives that criminals are constantly carrying around AR-15 gas powered rifles, that it's easier to catch them by surprise at home than to risk doing your job more humanely and end up with a 5.56 round in the chest. Or something like that. </Snark>
MarkPNeyer 12y ago
> I don't see the need of assaulting a home. it's almost always for drugs, where they'd be afraid the person could flush them down the toilet.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- TillE 12y ago
  As the GP said, that's why you simply wait until they leave the house. In nearly all these cases, they're only looking for one person.
- the_af 12y ago
  If you arrest people outside their house when they go for a walk, how on earth are they going to "flush the drugs down the toilet"?
  - EC1 12y ago
    What, you don't carry a portable toilet around?

beloch 12y ago

There seems to be some room for innovation here. The police are throwing these things blind. Evidence? Well, I refuse to believe anyone, no matter how debased, would intentionally throw a flashbang into a baby's crib. What's needed is a flashbang that either won't go off if in close proximity to a living being (e.g. perhaps add an IR sensor) or a flashbang that is triggered remotely, so it can be thrown, spotted, and triggered only if in a desirable location. Personally, I think building a flashbang that's harder to injure people with will simply result in increasingly idiotic behavior on the part of the police. The real solution is to use flashbangs less and with better training. That means regulations and oversight because the police apparently suck at policing themselves. However, the U.S. loves to solve problems with tech even when it's not the best solution, so there's money to be made here.

Zigurd 12y ago
It shouldn't be necessary to do paramilitary raids of homes unless there is some desperate situation like hostages being killed.
rdtsc 12y ago
> Well, I refuse to believe anyone, no matter how debased, would intentionally throw a flashbang into a baby's crib I can. In the extended circle of acquintances, two of the cops are the worst abusers of their families, children & wives, the are the most racists and full of hatred. One would enjoy showing others how he would spin his son by his hand while simultaneously kicking him in the back with his foot (granted this is not a US policeman, not that a US policemen are somehow qualitatively more noble). I think there is link between saddism (enjoyment of inflicticting pain) and choosing to be that kind of a profession (just like there might be a link between wanting to help people and choosing to do it).
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  Sadly, statistics back you up in this case. US police appear to have a much higher propensity to engage in domestic violence than the general population: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-o...

girvo 12y ago

> “If she hadn’t been selling illegal items out of the home, no warrant would have been served,” he said. “What you call extreme, we call safe.” Disgusting. The militarisation of police is a blight on our societies progress. And now where I live is succumbing to it too, albeit far more slowly than what those in the US have to deal with. The fact that SWAT teams are using flash bangs and automatic weaponry to raid a woman's house for selling beer without a license blows my mind. > Department officers testified that their general SWAT training included work with flashbangs even though it wasn’t formally recorded in department training logs. In other words, they're lying to cover their asses again. Like police have never done that before. Disgusting.

aswanson 12y ago
And yet, American citizenry at large and the justice system in general gives the police the benefit of the doubt in all matters versus the populace. Are we really that dumb as a country? If you have to ask...
- sukilot 12y ago
  As horrible as police brutality it, it still directly hurts less than ~20% of society (more in some really bad areas, less in others). So only those, plus the few percent of others who have a sense of compassion, are opposed to the brutality. The rest are either ignorant or complicit or in cognitir dissonance.
  - snsr 12y ago
    > As horrible as police brutality it, it still directly hurts less than ~20% of society. So only those, plus the few percent of others who have a sense of compassion, are opposed to the brutality. Your unsupported position is disgusting. It hurts all of us when some are beyond reproach for brutalizing and murdering the most vulnerable in our society.
    - girvo 12y ago
      It's a shame the parent is being downvoted, as I read it they're not condoning that reaction, merely commenting on it. And they're right: that's exactly how the masses react to things like this. I wish more people reacted like you did, and I want to help build a world where that's the case.

vaadu 12y ago

There will NEVER be accountability as long as the conflict of interest remains where police actions are investigated by a prosecutor that relies on these same police for him to do a successful job.

hockley 12y ago
This fact was so evident last year. I don't understand why cop cases don't have special prosecutors or fall under federal jurisdiction.
- philwelch 12y ago
  Because the cops have all the guns and a good union.
- kansface 12y ago
  Cops testify in federal courts, too. There is no incentive for prosecutors to indict cops.

corndoge 12y ago

“Everyone carries a flashbang,” Malette testified. “Any time we encounter locked doors, we have an unknown, we have to gain back that initiative.” I understand that police are interested in maintaining control of a situation, but practices like throwing flashbang grenades into houses without looking...these guys seem to think they're Delta Force.

IkmoIkmo 12y ago
It's insane. He literally said 'there's something behind this door, we don't know whether it's a guy with a rocket launcher or an innocent baby, so let's throw a grenade in there and 'gain the initiative' whichever case it may be'. I never quite understood raids in the first place. Between scoping out a house, arresting any individuals outside as they walk on the curb while entering an empty home with a warrant, and raiding a house delta-force style with guns, an unknown number of people in the house with no knowledge of what you'll find. I'm sure house raids have their place, but to me that place feels rather limited. Raiding someone's house because of something like pot, or selling nachos, with grenades and all?
rhino369 12y ago
Part of the problem is they are asked to be Delta Force. I wouldn't storm a house without a sub machine and a flashbang either. But I also wouldn't storm houses in the first place. Raids aren't needed except in very exceptional cases like a hostage situation or a spree killer. It's time for police to need a court's permission to specifically raid without a clear and present danger.
rhino369 12y ago
Part of the problem is they are asked to be Delta Force. I wouldn't storm a house without a sub machine and a flashbang either. But I also wouldn't storm houses in the first place. Raids aren't needed except in very exceptional cases like a hostage situation or a spree killer. It's time for police to need a court's permission to specifically raid without a clear and present danger.

yellowapple 12y ago

There seems to be a some demand for safer flashbangs (perhaps something with really bright LEDs and really loud speakers). This[0] seems to at least address the brightness aspect of it. I mean, if the point of flashbang use by LEOs is supposedly to disorient/confuse/distract a suspect during arrest, this seems to be better-suited to that role. And better yet, if they're electronic, they should be (at least hypothetically) entirely reusable, saving a LEA a lot of money in the long run. [0]: http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2012/03/13/delta-light-ball-flashbang-alternative/ http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2012/03/13/delta-light-ball-flas...

SwellJoe 12y ago
Home invasion will never be safe, regardless of the tools they use. If law enforcement's answer to tragedies like this is, "We'll train our people in use of less dangerous tools", then the wrong questions are being asked. The question should be, "What the hell were you doing breaking into someone's home in the middle of the night?"

comrh 12y ago

ProPublica is quietly doing the best journalism of the past few years.

SwellJoe 12y ago

I'm so past fed up with police in America. The drug war is pathological. The notion that a cop can kill an unarmed suspect with impunity (especially if they're black or homeless or mentally ill) is disgusting. The belief that "law and order" is a value worth allowing one group the exclusive privilege of breaking any law and causing any disorder they like without consequence simply has to end. I'm at the point where I think the only sane thing is to dismantle the police, as we know it, and rebuild something less violent, less systemically racist, less prone to imprison or kill the mentally ill, and more aligned with basic human decency. Talking about how dangerous flashbangs are misses the point of how dangerous the system that wields them is and how dangerous the people employed by that system are. Police have dozens of tools and techniques for destroying human life. As long as they are empowered (and even expected) to use them with impunity, there will be tragedy after tragedy, where children, the mentally ill, and innocent people, are injured or killed or imprisoned. Not that talking about flashbangs is a bad idea. I just think we're past the point where fixing flashbangs will significantly fix things. This is a systemic problem which can only be resolved by systemic solutions.

Normati 12y ago
America isn't the problem, Americans are. Everyone who voted for this is to blame. From what I understand you can even vote for some of the local judges or prosecutors too! There's no excuse but to recognize that your neighbors are responsible for the problems due to their own selfishness. They want the police to be brutal because the drug raid isn't going to be on their home, it'll be on some poor person's home and they don't care about poor people. This might sound harsh, but it's what most American voters do. That's why they continually vote for police violence. If they don't understand the consequences of their vote then they're as negligent as the policeman who doesn't understand the consequences of throwing a flashbang into a bedroom.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  You're partially right, though overly optimistic about the power of "democracy" in America. It's worth recognizing the power of gerrymandering and money in elections. But, that's another discussion. There is no such thing as a viable political candidate who discusses reigning in police power...not because of the voting public. In America we choose between two parties who have differences, but there are entire categories of governance on which they are in lock step. Police is one of those categories. You will never hear a Republican or a Democrat suggest abolition of the institution of police as we know it, or even demanding basic accountability for killer cops. Short of revolution, the only effective tools citizens have is to educate more people about the problems (and the cost of "tough on crime" policies), protest the clear human rights violations, film police so there are fewer invisible victims, demand accountability from city councils and mayors and police chiefs, etc. And, I do a little bit of all of these things (there's a Black Lives Matter march on Saturday here in Austin; I'll be there). So, yes, many Americans are stupid, violent, poorly-educated, racist, and vindictive, or at least support law enforcement that is all of those things. But, the number of people who support no-knock raids is surely not high enough to claim the people chose this (I don't know, but I can't imagine it would be).

Aeolun 12y ago

I don't think the problem is so much that flashbangs are being thrown, as that they are thrown when storming the house of someone committing the grave crime of illegally selling nachos.

fintler 12y ago
Not only a raid with flashbangs. They also tried to take an old lady's house for selling Nachos. "Afterward, the city of Little Rock sued Harris, alleging that her property should be declared a nuisance and “abated” — or razed — since it was being used to facilitate criminal violations."

cryoshon 12y ago

Use weapons against civilians and you get predictable consequences. Not sure why this is permitted in the USA, starting to think that most Americans are really a bit braindead.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

ted5555 12y ago

First, the Albequerque incident was cold blooded murder and the indictment is very appropriate. Second, flash bang use is already dramatically declining so this sory is about three years to late. But nice effort.

ted5555 12y ago

noonespecial 12y ago

That the officers involved in these incidents are never indicted is kind of a red herring. They follow procedure and feel like they've done nothing wrong. The real issue is that we allow a procedure in which occasionally we throw grenades at babies.

fapjacks 12y ago

As an infantry combat veteran of multiple tours, the idea that police forces are using flashbangs is disgusting.

lordnacho 12y ago

I wonder how many people were like me, in that they thought the Counterstrike version of a flashbang was representative of the real thing? I never really considered how they worked until now.

andrewstuart 12y ago

Outcome of arms vendors needing new markets.

briandear 12y ago

flashbangs are warranted when there is a high threat profile. The problem is that a 'raid' doesn't rise to the level of 'high threat profile.' The problem isn't the police tactics, it's a problem of bad risk management. Police have been considering all manner of crimes 'raid worthy.' If SWAT was going after known dangerous and armed gang members or they were in a hostage situation, flashbangs might be the right tactic; it would depend on the threat profile and pre-raid intelligence. SpecOps operators rarely just blast into a room. Oftentimes there are eyes on the target, including surveillance to determine the threat profile. Cops could have very easily just staked out the house and grabbed the guy when he walked outside. But that isn't as 'sexy' and suiting up in full battle rattle and rappelling from the roof tossing flashbangs, and kicking in doors. While the drug war is a big prt of this, the larger problem is the lack of meaningful and audited protocols for various situations. Going after a guy with weed should require a much different approach than taking down a meth lab. Though, a flashbang in a meth lab would be a sight to see.

ck2 12y ago

I don't even know what to say after reading that article. How can this be even remotely acceptable to anyone? I mean they are using them in cases where they know for a fact it is not a dangerous situation - an elderly woman selling beer? They used it TWICE? Really?

halfcat 12y ago

>At least 50 Americans have been seriously injured, maimed or killed by flashbangs since 2000 I was surprised to see this statistic included. It really makes this issue seem less significant and does not help the argument being made. This means a little over 3 people per year injured or worse. Probably less than 1 death per year. By comparison, vending machines alone kill over a dozen people each year. Was this supposed to say, "we located over 50 people", and not intended to be put forward as a statistic?